Two-time Emmy and Three-time NAACP Image Award-winning television Executive Producer interviewed Chef Marcus Samuelsson.
When you hear someone utter the words “Culinary History of America”, the phrase “Black Excellence” is not the first thing that comes to mind. While Black cooks have played a major role in shaping the landscape of America’s culinary culture, their history and accomplishments continue to be told in the dark, underrecognized by the wider world. Well, here to shed some light on this hidden history is Red Rooster’s very own Head Chef, Chef Marcus Samuelsson, through his book, The Rise: Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food: A Cookbook. Make sure to bring your good eating pants and your academia caps to this episode of Money Making Conversations Master Class as we do a deep dive into the culinary history of America and the role that the African diaspora played in shaping it.
The James Beard award-winning chef says his flagship restaurant, Red Rooster, became his "haven" during the height of pandemic. Working with José Andrés' World Central Kitchen organization, Samuelsson converted the restaurant to a community kitchen. Over the course of six months, Red Rooster served more than 200,000 meals to first responders and others in need.
"It was a place for me when our world was so ripped apart and no one knew what to do," he says.
Samuelsson says feeding the community during the pandemic also changed the way he thought about his industry. "The word 'restaurant' actually means to restore your community. And in the worst of times, I think that the restaurant, the hospitality industry really stepped up," he says.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you're about to make a change in your life
and you feel uncomfortable, that's the best feeling you can
have because for the first time in your life, you'll
make a new decision that's going to be best for
you and not what somebody told you to do. And
that's when all bets are off. Welcome to Money Making
Conversation Masterclass. I'm your host, Rashwan MacDonald. Our theme is
(00:22):
there's no perfect time to start following your dreams. I
recognize that we all have different definitions of success. For
you and maybe decide to your jam, it's time to
stop reading other people's success stories to start living your
own keep winning. My next guest is Mark Chef put
the Worst Chef in front of him Marcus Samuelson. He's
(00:44):
an award winning chef, restaurant tour best selling author, TV personality, philanthropists,
and food activists. His culinary career spans over twenty five years.
Has numerous restaurants in the US and internationally, including The
Red Rooster, Marcus, B and B in Order, Marcus Montreal,
and more. His book is called The Rise Black Cooks
and the Soul of American Food. The book is celebrating
(01:07):
contemporary Black cooking, highlighting the food culture and history and
stories and recipes. The book covers the diverse contributions and
traditions that influence Black cooking and American culture from African
continent to the Caribbean and US. We have a lot
of talk about the process of creating the book, naming
it the Rise Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food.
Why did he write the book, how did he decide
(01:29):
this was the next book that he wanted to do.
So he's here, y'all, please welcome to the Money Making Conversation.
Chef Marcus Samuelson.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
My man, I'm gonna tell you something when you write
a book like that. First of all, you love food,
don't you, Chef. You just love food. Let's get that out.
Let's get that out front, because I see when I've
read past books and I've just followed you on TV,
that's like a twinkle in your eye because I love
the way you dressed too. So I'm a clothes man
(02:00):
and so so you got a look. See. I've interviewed
a lot of chefs over the years. You are probably
the best dressed chef I've sued to date.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Can you take to say that I also love food
than more than anybody else. That is, the kitchener has
give me license to travel in my dream all over
the world. And I'm very very grateful for that. And
of course, as a black man, you got to bring
you stop with it.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I ever had to do some chef. Give yourself your due, man,
because everybody don't have that style. You got the hats,
you got the vest, you like light colors, green, yellow,
you know, you know how to put it together, patterns, squares. See,
I weire a lot of tailor clothes and so so
you're much more daring. But I just say that in
(02:47):
a in a complimentary way because I'm a you know,
I wear a lot of suits.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
My neighbor, you know, my blog is amazing living in Harlem.
You know this, It's take an amazing village, you know.
So my neighbor is mister dapper dad.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
A right, right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So whatever I put on, I'm still far behind because everything.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You know what I mean, because I lived in New York.
I lived last time I was up in New York,
I was up Steve Harvey and I was up there
from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven,
and I lived in forty thirty ninth and first, and
then previously when I was up there was the eighty
six and first, so I was all always up in
the Harlem. And I've been by your restaurant, by the way,
I've not met you, but I've been by your because
when it opened, it was always it was always hard
(03:27):
to get in. It was always hard to get in, Okay,
always hard, which is a compliment. It's a compliment, okay.
And in the book that we're about to discuss is
called The Rise, Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food.
Now I'm from Houston, Texas, so I like to consider
that one of the heart of the South Cities. And
I also lived in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta, Georgia, so so,
and i've lived in Chicago. I'm just give you the
(03:50):
range of who you're talking to here, Marcus. I've lived
in Chicago four years. I lived in New York two years.
I've been living in Atlanta since two thousand and seven.
I lived in Los Angeles fifth ten years. And I
was born and raised in Houston, Texas. So I have
and I have been all over this country. In eight
Fantastic Food, I still believe Chicago is the best place
to eat across the board. Were talking about variety, can't
(04:13):
about top Chicago. That's my estimate. Now, what do you
think is the best place in this country to eat
before we get into your book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, well, I'll tell you what. There is a couple
of places that people might not have as number one,
but I'll tell you it is the great foods because
it's very diverse. It's one of the most diverse cities
in America, and people don't know about that because it's
in Texas. I said food, the Vietnamese food, of course,
the Black food that comes out out of Houston, but
(04:41):
also amazing Indian food and Mexican Mexican American food. Of course,
Houston don't keep great food.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, but I didn't want to sound selfish. You know,
people don't he from Houston. He will say that, you know,
but Houston. I'm telling you something. Dining out in Houston
is amazing because of the fact that, like you said,
textam X, don't Bobby C you don't, my goodness, you know.
Then you got this just down the road in New Orleans.
So you've got that flavor coming into Houston and they
fish all the because we're in the golf of Mexico.
(05:12):
So you got all those varieties that you were talking about,
and it is a very diverse city from from the
type of from Indian food is fantastic there and and
so so yes, you're you're right. So I will, I
will put I always put a crown on my my
born city because it does deliver. But you're absolutely right.
So now we're now we're talking about this this book
(05:33):
here that you've written, that you created. Why this book markus?
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, we we had to because you know, just as
American history around black culture is not great, so it's
the same with food. And for me, it was very
important with the chef with a big platform, it was
important to me to connect the dogs that black excellence
when it comes to food needs to be documented and
there needs to be hats off to the incredible legacy
(06:01):
what black chefs has done before us to set up
this moment, right you have. You know, even from Devi
Thomas Jefferson's time, you know the black chefs that he
had going up to Miss Lee at Chase that you
know ran her restaurant. You could chase still going on
in Orleans for seventy years, you know what I mean.
Even some people that are not as known, like someone
(06:22):
like Georgia Gilmore that you know was raised money for
more MLK for the movement. For example, that you have
chefs like Superior Right that worked for chef Linda B. Johnson,
and she was the one that was convincing him that
for the Black rights to vote, for example, in nineteen
sixty four. So chefs, black chefs has contributed in so
(06:45):
many different ways. And then of course you look at
southern food, what we call today's sole food. You can't
talk about American food without the black contribution. Think about
creole cooking, right, think about barbecue. But wherever you find
in American history book, you can't find us. And for me,
it's real. It's all of value we have added. Of course,
we have a value proposition that is not cannot be monolithic.
(07:09):
We've added so much and it was important to document
it and present it in a new way.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Wow, we're talking to I'm talking to chef Marcus Samuelson.
His book The Rise Black Cooks and the Soul of
American Food. Now it's the book is broken up to
five chapters, correct, you said, in the next the remix,
the migration, the legacy, and the origin, and like I said,
his little subtitles tied to each to like the next
(07:35):
where black food is headed. And then on the remix,
black cooking integrates many cultures, which is so true. The
migration influence of the American South where I'm from, then
the legacy, all the new journeys from Africa to America.
Let's talk right there. Because the diaspora, hopefully I said
that correctly, has been a type of meal that is
(07:55):
suddenly appearing across this country. All right. I will tell
you I was first exposed to it when I used
to take my family down to Disney World in Orlando,
and they had a menu that's completely in an African menu.
In fact, they have a buffet, and that's what I
was exposed to, that amazing, spicy, diverse menu of African food.
(08:16):
And I also have another restaurant there which is one
of the restaurants, which is a menu driven restaurant as well.
So that's what I got exposed to that food. Why
has there been such an explosion of the African menu
in America?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, I think because I think a couple of things
Internet and opportunity to link and bridge like you can.
Now you know a lot of my chef friends they're
going to Legos to learn about too now the way
they used to go to France or Italy. Right, that
wasn't possible sixteen twenty years ago. And I think about
there's always been a back and forth between the continent
(08:50):
of Africa and Black excellent. You think about music, right,
think about how Fella and all the African American deficians
used to go to Africa, stev everybody went to Africa
to learn, and now you have you know, afrobeats, and
you have hip hop that tech influences from that. So
in music, the links blues. Everyone knows where the blues
truly come from, for example. But guess what it wasn't
(09:12):
just music that problem like that, It was also food,
so okra right, how did it get here? Of course
it's the history with enslaved and slavery, right, very difficult
history talk about, but it also brought us the food
that we have. So just as much as the music
came from Africa and came to America as part of
our black narrative, there's also linkage with the food. You know, Okrah,
(09:35):
the states of American cooking comes from Africa, and for
us it's not today. It's an opportunity to share and
talk about it and take take something that was very
dark and difficult to something positive.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, yeah, it really is, and it's a it's an
interesting taste, a lot of colors, you know, I want,
I think purple ams. Come on that. Brother, I I
got to tell I'm a food. Now, I'm a food
that I love eating great food. Now let's did you
say legos? And I ran across that planteing menu. It's
(10:09):
in your book. I believe it's in that next next chapter. Now, see,
I'm a guy. The reason I got excited about that
because I'm a guy.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I go into the store and I buy it in
the store, just reheat it. That's what I do. You know, boy,
your brand was one of the brands, popular brands that
I always had in my house. Okay, Now I see
a nice little simple recipe in your book now, which
you know, like I said, you know, when you when
you get these recipe books, sometimes they can be so daunting.
(10:37):
Sometimes chef that is you like, man, I can't cook
nothing in this book, but your book is different. And
also the way you stylized your book because you're you're
you're honoring chefs and restaurants across the country, and that
was a unique take that I've never seen any any
restaurant book. Because your boy my boy, I wanted to say,
I won't call them my boy. Because I went up there.
(10:57):
I interviewed don't want the show, and I told him
my wife and I was a fly to Seattle and
spin an we did yeah, and he was shocked. I say, hey, man,
I said, look, brother, look, I said, I go for
good food. I looked online. I said, man, you got
some food that I want to eat. And I went
up to June Baby in Seattle. And you're very familiar
with that. D Walo Jordan straight out of Florida, Florida
(11:18):
bar Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Love, we love Eduardo. I talk what we wanted to highlight, right,
I wanted, I want to blast there's so many black
chefs in this country that are amazing, and then the
Jordan is one of them, and so is someone like
Corla Hall, and so is someone like Ninsha Arrington. And
what you ending up doing when you read the book,
you can look good. It as two ways you can
(11:39):
look forward to go to Seattle and go to Eduardo's
West Point. You can look at this book as hey,
I live in Atlanta. Okay, who in Atlanta should I
link up with? Maybe your company wants to do a
corporate buyout? Okay?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Good.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So this book not only did I do deeper down
on forty chefs for sword tellers across the country, I
also added another two hundred black chefs and food writers
in the back with their Instagram handled, so no one
can say to me, well, how do I find them?
It's hard to find them. It's not hard to find them.
In the rise. You can. You can find every single one.
(12:14):
And wherever your community is, I can guarantee someone is
in wherever you live in the country is an amazing
local black chef.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Now I'm hearing what you're doing because I'll follow you
a little bit there, you know, because you're a great chef.
And when I saw what you're doing it, what do
you do? Because this sounds something like I would if
you need my support and social media to get the
word out because of a natural foodie and so, but
I've never heard of anybody doing what you're doing with
a national platform kind of like a U a phone
(12:46):
book of restaurants that you can go and go and die. Fantastic,
And because I travel a lot, I'm very familiar with
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
That's that's what we need. Right, Like we're in a
moment think about this. Most books and content that is
out there, we're not in it because it was not
for us, right, But it's not about me. This is
really about the legacy that we leave behind, and there
has to be a worse and a value system to
working through that. I'll give you an example. Right when
(13:16):
you think about brother Nearest Green Green, Nearest Green is
the one that came up with the recipeople Jackpans. He
never got one dollar for coming up with the rest
of people. Jackpans now probably the most famous liquor brand
in the world, Top five famous liqui brand in the world.
No imagine if you would have gotten ten cents on
the dollar to you know, his family, his extended family,
(13:41):
maybe there would have been the Nearest Gremuseum, et cetera.
Right when we get written out out of the authorship
of what we create, there's no link backs to us,
and it doesn't many things. A, it hits economically. B.
It also tells other black people that it's not there's
no value to be in food, right. You know, we
(14:02):
brought barbecue to this country. We came up with a
Bourbon's recipe for this in this country. But yet we're
completely honest announce outs the ownership and the authorship of that.
And so we have to stop that. You have to
support each other and find each other because our own
economy we can sustain like businesses and restaurants by supporting
(14:23):
each other.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I know that absolutely and at one hundred percent agree,
and that's that's why I I when I on my
show Money Making Conversations, the show about entrepreneurship, and I
get the interview CEOs and celebrities, entertainers and influencers, and
I have chefs on my show more than anything because
I know that the core of what we do in
a black community is food, good food and being able
(14:46):
to support and make you guys really out of stars.
You know, you just stars of the of the plate,
You just stars of the kitchen. And it doesn't get
recognized enough because people kind of just see you cooking
and you, like you said earlier, there's so much more
influence that comes out of the kitchen based on who
you talk to, who you serve, and who you communicate with.
That sometimes it changes the outlook of the world.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, no, it is. And it's also important because think
about food. Our food rituals are old, right, like it's
important to keep those in our community right. The other
part is also help we can do better than that.
We need to know teach our community to eat healthier
but also environmental, you know what I mean. We're going
to leave leave off the world in a better place
(15:31):
than we got it. Cooking has a lot to do
with that. How do you consume food? Where do we
buy it? How can we do any agree in a context? Now?
Can we make sure, for example, diabetes in our community
is going to go down?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
How we cook, how we is the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Absolutely. I'm talking to a chef, Marcus Samuelson. His fantastic book,
The Rise, Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food
is who I'm talking to right now. A couple of
things from the book, like I said that left me
mouth war around the coconut fried chicken. Because I'm gonna
tell you something, brother, coconut is my number one thing
I love to cook with. I've never ever made coconut
(16:08):
fried chicken. And then then you hit me with this
right here, chef, the oxtail pepper pot with dumplings. Is
that your take on chicken and dumplings with a spin
with the ox.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Tails come within exactly? You know, we don't love an oxtail.
Don't love that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You have been around out the hugs and chef, when
I saw that oxtail pepper pot with dumpless that's that's good, man,
that's good. And then and then and then see I'm
I'm from Houston, Texas. And wild berries. When I was
a kid, my parents used to take me out and
we just go out and picked wild berries. Man, they
(16:52):
did put some sugar on them, and boy, that was
the best dessert we ever had. Just put some sugar
on some on some wild berrys. And brother, I tell
you that's a dessert right there. Now in this book
you have the sweet wow berry. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Tell us about well, you know berries. You know, I
remember going with my grandmother picking berries. But you know,
you never know what would you would get, you know,
when that's my whole point foraging was. You know, it's
not something to put on Facebook. It was actually something.
You know, if you didn't pick the berries, I might.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Get something on my neck from my grandmother, right, you know,
you know those berries up, just bring them back home
and then you make a jam. And then you know,
if you were lucky lot left over, then you can
you know, do a pie crust and make it. And
that was the best pie ever, right because as a child,
you were part of that. Whether that was blueberry, whether
(17:45):
that was a black currants, whatever it was, right, and
us going out foraging, we didn't know what was going
out for. We were looking with fund blueberries with fine ring.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And then watch out for them snakes. Then watch out
for those snakes. Am I tell a little truth, Marcus?
Am I telling little truth?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Of course? I was always scared about it. My grandmother,
my grandmother, she cut the head off.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yes yet yeah, yeah, oh my god, this is great
talking to you, right. I hope we maintain this relationship, man,
because you're you're you're a strong spirit. And uh and
uh these recipes like I'm gonna tell you, uh, I
would call it the meal or something, but this is
something I've become, I've fallen in love with and it's
in your book, and I never for years, I would
(18:31):
just pass it up. Cous cous I love that. I
love it. And you have a recipe called cous cous
and roasted fig and I love it. I grew up
I had a fig tree in my backyard, fair tree
in the backyard, and we just go and if anybody
has a fig tree, you have figs forever. If you
have a fig tree, you're like a plump tree. It's
(18:52):
just they're just there forever. And so but I've never
seen this mixed before, talk about this couscous and roasted fig.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, you know, we got to think about it healthier
and pus is so light and bright, you know what
I mean. And then just you can add any fruit,
like if you're in the South, you can also add
peaches to that you need, you know that nuts. That's
it's very easy, right. Sometimes we have so much great
food here because it's so easy to cook. Right, you
can soak it or just cook it for five minutes
(19:22):
and steam it and then just folding your peach or
your figs, for example, some nuts, some beautiful freshure, and
you have a snack. You have a lunch. If you
roll some chicken Mber that now you have dinner, you know,
so we've got to call. You know, we always have
to sort of mix up our sides, and that's really
the key being to buy being introduced to different foods.
(19:43):
But you know, that's the key for us to change
our diets so we're not always eating the same.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And that's really important. And when I go through this book,
like I said, you've heard me mentioned the plantain, is,
the coconut fried chicken, pepper pie with dumplings, many more.
I'm just I just picked out a few of my favorites. Okay,
the cous cous and roasted fig you hear me talk
about here, here's something I was I wanted to talk
about at the Dookie Chase that's in New Orleans. I've
(20:11):
been there several times.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Like I said, I lived from Houston, Texas. So my
best friend who's my best man and my wedding, he's
from New Orleans. So I was always in New Orleans.
So I'm very familiar with Dukie Chase. Now lit Chase
has a gumbo recipe in now yeah, Now, I want
to get this straight here because see I'm being honest
with you. I didn't see anything people always here to
say the word rue. You got to have a root
(20:35):
for a gumbo. I don't know what that is. I'm
just gonna let you know, I just I cook it,
just like Liz Chase does you know, I just put
I put it all in the pot. It all goes well.
And because my wife the other day, you know, she
was looking at the recipe. She was over there, you know,
trying to I got to get my root, right, I said,
what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yes, yes, yes, Well this is the thing that both said.
You guys are right right. The root is really the
flour and the butter makes of the flower, and that
you cook out and you get that a little brown, right.
For what's happened how a recipe has evolved. Back in
the day, you couldn't afford a lot of vegetables and
a lot of seafood. So the way something was thicket
(21:15):
was with a thick root, which everybody could afford oil
and flour. But as today, as cooking is now asked,
we can afford more things. We've actually cut down on
the root and adding more oakrah, more more vegetables, and
more seafood into it. Because the root itself doesn't really
have a great taste. So that's why the modern recipes
the root is kind of cut out because the sol
(21:37):
it is it's flower. But you know your white is
right traditionally go way back, a root is definitely there
for that. I mean, you're right, is always.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Right, right, She's right, but look at her. I can't.
I can't waste my time with that root O taste
as I was just like my girl Chase, I just
I just put it together just like that. She uses
fish stock, I use chicken stock. I'm gonna try to
fish and chicken stock this time. And sounded like a
good thing because that fish probably bring me a little
(22:07):
natural salt into that, which is really good from a
natural cooking. But I know we're running out of time here,
but I want to bring up something that growing up, man,
I grew up in the hood, and so you know,
my daughter, my father was truck driver, and my mom
used to make hot water corn break, okay, and to
this day I cannot get that. And then I ran
(22:30):
across these recipe ho cakes in your book.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yes, yes, you know. And that's the whole point about
bringing out things quick things. I mean, think about it.
How incredible our ancestor work, right, that had very little
but we still two hundred, three hundred years later, still
trading on these incredible recipes that our ancestors has ingenieus.
(22:57):
It is black cooking. You can't take it for credit.
You got to appreciate it. And the only way to
do that is to document, to share it and tell stories. Right.
So this this is you were really deep in the
book when you find recipes like that and it's like
we did that, We did that, you know what I mean.
And that's what's really what this book is about. It's
about celebrated black chefs, past, pressure and future.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And that's what I wanted to tell you a little
bit about me in here because I wanted to let
you know how passionate and how detailed this book is
because it hit home so many ways with me because
my wife is from Belize, Okay, so that get that
culture from there, you know what I'm saying. And so
I've been fortunate to travel the world, especially in the Caribbean,
so I'm very familiar with the food down there. You know. Uh,
(23:42):
pork is still was the coolest meat for meat for me.
And so and when I come across a book, you know,
popa AEDs, shrimp and grids, the fried Chicken, wastle, pair
of par of sauce. I'm going like, man, this is
a fantastic book. But on top of that, you know,
the book I'm talking about is The Rise Black Cooks
and the Solo American who is broken up in the
five chapters next remixes one chapter migration is one chapter
(24:05):
of legacy and origin. But the fact that you are
willing to promote the brand of black restaurants throughout this country,
and the fact that you are taking the time to
show support and strong support for these black restaurants across
the country. Your books. You amazing. I know the first
time we've ever talked, man, and I appreciate you and
I value what you're trying to bring to the game
(24:25):
of But also, let's trade numbers, man, because you need
to do a documentary. Brother, That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, yet, that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I don't know you know who I am, but that's
what I do.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
But yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Hey, I want to thank you for coming on Money
Making Conversation. You keep winning.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Thank you so much them too.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
If you want to hear more Money Making Conversations interviews,
please go with money Making Conversation dot com. I'm with
Sean McDonald. I'm your host,
If you're about to make a change in your life
and you feel uncomfortable, that's the best feeling you can
have because for the first time in your life, you'll
make a new decision that's going to be best for
you and not what somebody told you to do. And
that's when all bets are off. Welcome to Money Making
Conversation Masterclass. I'm your host, Rashwan MacDonald. Our theme is
(00:22):
there's no perfect time to start following your dreams. I
recognize that we all have different definitions of success. For
you and maybe decide to your jam, it's time to
stop reading other people's success stories to start living your
own keep winning. My next guest is Mark Chef put
the Worst Chef in front of him Marcus Samuelson. He's
(00:44):
an award winning chef, restaurant tour best selling author, TV personality, philanthropists,
and food activists. His culinary career spans over twenty five years.
Has numerous restaurants in the US and internationally, including The
Red Rooster, Marcus, B and B in Order, Marcus Montreal,
and more. His book is called The Rise Black Cooks
and the Soul of American Food. The book is celebrating
(01:07):
contemporary Black cooking, highlighting the food culture and history and
stories and recipes. The book covers the diverse contributions and
traditions that influence Black cooking and American culture from African
continent to the Caribbean and US. We have a lot
of talk about the process of creating the book, naming
it the Rise Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food.
Why did he write the book, how did he decide
(01:29):
this was the next book that he wanted to do.
So he's here, y'all, please welcome to the Money Making Conversation.
Chef Marcus Samuelson.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
My man, I'm gonna tell you something when you write
a book like that. First of all, you love food,
don't you, Chef. You just love food. Let's get that out.
Let's get that out front, because I see when I've
read past books and I've just followed you on TV,
that's like a twinkle in your eye because I love
the way you dressed too. So I'm a clothes man
(02:00):
and so so you got a look. See. I've interviewed
a lot of chefs over the years. You are probably
the best dressed chef I've sued to date.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Can you take to say that I also love food
than more than anybody else. That is, the kitchener has
give me license to travel in my dream all over
the world. And I'm very very grateful for that. And
of course, as a black man, you got to bring
you stop with it.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I ever had to do some chef. Give yourself your due, man,
because everybody don't have that style. You got the hats,
you got the vest, you like light colors, green, yellow,
you know, you know how to put it together, patterns, squares. See,
I weire a lot of tailor clothes and so so
you're much more daring. But I just say that in
(02:47):
a in a complimentary way because I'm a you know,
I wear a lot of suits.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
My neighbor, you know, my blog is amazing living in Harlem.
You know this, It's take an amazing village, you know.
So my neighbor is mister dapper dad.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
A right, right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So whatever I put on, I'm still far behind because everything.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You know what I mean, because I lived in New York.
I lived last time I was up in New York,
I was up Steve Harvey and I was up there
from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven,
and I lived in forty thirty ninth and first, and
then previously when I was up there was the eighty
six and first, so I was all always up in
the Harlem. And I've been by your restaurant, by the way,
I've not met you, but I've been by your because
when it opened, it was always it was always hard
(03:27):
to get in. It was always hard to get in, Okay,
always hard, which is a compliment. It's a compliment, okay.
And in the book that we're about to discuss is
called The Rise, Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food.
Now I'm from Houston, Texas, so I like to consider
that one of the heart of the South Cities. And
I also lived in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta, Georgia, so so,
and i've lived in Chicago. I'm just give you the
(03:50):
range of who you're talking to here, Marcus. I've lived
in Chicago four years. I lived in New York two years.
I've been living in Atlanta since two thousand and seven.
I lived in Los Angeles fifth ten years. And I
was born and raised in Houston, Texas. So I have
and I have been all over this country. In eight
Fantastic Food, I still believe Chicago is the best place
to eat across the board. Were talking about variety, can't
(04:13):
about top Chicago. That's my estimate. Now, what do you
think is the best place in this country to eat
before we get into your book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, well, I'll tell you what. There is a couple
of places that people might not have as number one,
but I'll tell you it is the great foods because
it's very diverse. It's one of the most diverse cities
in America, and people don't know about that because it's
in Texas. I said food, the Vietnamese food, of course,
the Black food that comes out out of Houston, but
(04:41):
also amazing Indian food and Mexican Mexican American food. Of course,
Houston don't keep great food.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, but I didn't want to sound selfish. You know,
people don't he from Houston. He will say that, you know,
but Houston. I'm telling you something. Dining out in Houston
is amazing because of the fact that, like you said,
textam X, don't Bobby C you don't, my goodness, you know.
Then you got this just down the road in New Orleans.
So you've got that flavor coming into Houston and they
fish all the because we're in the golf of Mexico.
(05:12):
So you got all those varieties that you were talking about,
and it is a very diverse city from from the
type of from Indian food is fantastic there and and
so so yes, you're you're right. So I will, I
will put I always put a crown on my my
born city because it does deliver. But you're absolutely right.
So now we're now we're talking about this this book
(05:33):
here that you've written, that you created. Why this book markus?
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, we we had to because you know, just as
American history around black culture is not great, so it's
the same with food. And for me, it was very
important with the chef with a big platform, it was
important to me to connect the dogs that black excellence
when it comes to food needs to be documented and
there needs to be hats off to the incredible legacy
(06:01):
what black chefs has done before us to set up
this moment, right you have. You know, even from Devi
Thomas Jefferson's time, you know the black chefs that he
had going up to Miss Lee at Chase that you
know ran her restaurant. You could chase still going on
in Orleans for seventy years, you know what I mean.
Even some people that are not as known, like someone
(06:22):
like Georgia Gilmore that you know was raised money for
more MLK for the movement. For example, that you have
chefs like Superior Right that worked for chef Linda B. Johnson,
and she was the one that was convincing him that
for the Black rights to vote, for example, in nineteen
sixty four. So chefs, black chefs has contributed in so
(06:45):
many different ways. And then of course you look at
southern food, what we call today's sole food. You can't
talk about American food without the black contribution. Think about
creole cooking, right, think about barbecue. But wherever you find
in American history book, you can't find us. And for me,
it's real. It's all of value we have added. Of course,
we have a value proposition that is not cannot be monolithic.
(07:09):
We've added so much and it was important to document
it and present it in a new way.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Wow, we're talking to I'm talking to chef Marcus Samuelson.
His book The Rise Black Cooks and the Soul of
American Food. Now it's the book is broken up to
five chapters, correct, you said, in the next the remix,
the migration, the legacy, and the origin, and like I said,
his little subtitles tied to each to like the next
(07:35):
where black food is headed. And then on the remix,
black cooking integrates many cultures, which is so true. The
migration influence of the American South where I'm from, then
the legacy, all the new journeys from Africa to America.
Let's talk right there. Because the diaspora, hopefully I said
that correctly, has been a type of meal that is
(07:55):
suddenly appearing across this country. All right. I will tell
you I was first exposed to it when I used
to take my family down to Disney World in Orlando,
and they had a menu that's completely in an African menu.
In fact, they have a buffet, and that's what I
was exposed to, that amazing, spicy, diverse menu of African food.
(08:16):
And I also have another restaurant there which is one
of the restaurants, which is a menu driven restaurant as well.
So that's what I got exposed to that food. Why
has there been such an explosion of the African menu
in America?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, I think because I think a couple of things
Internet and opportunity to link and bridge like you can.
Now you know a lot of my chef friends they're
going to Legos to learn about too now the way
they used to go to France or Italy. Right, that
wasn't possible sixteen twenty years ago. And I think about
there's always been a back and forth between the continent
(08:50):
of Africa and Black excellent. You think about music, right,
think about how Fella and all the African American deficians
used to go to Africa, stev everybody went to Africa
to learn, and now you have you know, afrobeats, and
you have hip hop that tech influences from that. So
in music, the links blues. Everyone knows where the blues
truly come from, for example. But guess what it wasn't
(09:12):
just music that problem like that, It was also food,
so okra right, how did it get here? Of course
it's the history with enslaved and slavery, right, very difficult
history talk about, but it also brought us the food
that we have. So just as much as the music
came from Africa and came to America as part of
our black narrative, there's also linkage with the food. You know, Okrah,
(09:35):
the states of American cooking comes from Africa, and for
us it's not today. It's an opportunity to share and
talk about it and take take something that was very
dark and difficult to something positive.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, yeah, it really is, and it's a it's an
interesting taste, a lot of colors, you know, I want,
I think purple ams. Come on that. Brother, I I
got to tell I'm a food. Now, I'm a food
that I love eating great food. Now let's did you
say legos? And I ran across that planteing menu. It's
(10:09):
in your book. I believe it's in that next next chapter. Now, see,
I'm a guy. The reason I got excited about that
because I'm a guy.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I go into the store and I buy it in
the store, just reheat it. That's what I do. You know, boy,
your brand was one of the brands, popular brands that
I always had in my house. Okay, Now I see
a nice little simple recipe in your book now, which
you know, like I said, you know, when you when
you get these recipe books, sometimes they can be so daunting.
(10:37):
Sometimes chef that is you like, man, I can't cook
nothing in this book, but your book is different. And
also the way you stylized your book because you're you're
you're honoring chefs and restaurants across the country, and that
was a unique take that I've never seen any any
restaurant book. Because your boy my boy, I wanted to say,
I won't call them my boy. Because I went up there.
(10:57):
I interviewed don't want the show, and I told him
my wife and I was a fly to Seattle and
spin an we did yeah, and he was shocked. I say, hey, man,
I said, look, brother, look, I said, I go for
good food. I looked online. I said, man, you got
some food that I want to eat. And I went
up to June Baby in Seattle. And you're very familiar
with that. D Walo Jordan straight out of Florida, Florida
(11:18):
bar Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Love, we love Eduardo. I talk what we wanted to highlight, right,
I wanted, I want to blast there's so many black
chefs in this country that are amazing, and then the
Jordan is one of them, and so is someone like
Corla Hall, and so is someone like Ninsha Arrington. And
what you ending up doing when you read the book,
you can look good. It as two ways you can
(11:39):
look forward to go to Seattle and go to Eduardo's
West Point. You can look at this book as hey,
I live in Atlanta. Okay, who in Atlanta should I
link up with? Maybe your company wants to do a
corporate buyout? Okay?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Good.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So this book not only did I do deeper down
on forty chefs for sword tellers across the country, I
also added another two hundred black chefs and food writers
in the back with their Instagram handled, so no one
can say to me, well, how do I find them?
It's hard to find them. It's not hard to find them.
In the rise. You can. You can find every single one.
(12:14):
And wherever your community is, I can guarantee someone is
in wherever you live in the country is an amazing
local black chef.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Now I'm hearing what you're doing because I'll follow you
a little bit there, you know, because you're a great chef.
And when I saw what you're doing it, what do
you do? Because this sounds something like I would if
you need my support and social media to get the
word out because of a natural foodie and so, but
I've never heard of anybody doing what you're doing with
a national platform kind of like a U a phone
(12:46):
book of restaurants that you can go and go and die. Fantastic,
And because I travel a lot, I'm very familiar with
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
That's that's what we need. Right, Like we're in a
moment think about this. Most books and content that is
out there, we're not in it because it was not
for us, right, But it's not about me. This is
really about the legacy that we leave behind, and there
has to be a worse and a value system to
working through that. I'll give you an example. Right when
(13:16):
you think about brother Nearest Green Green, Nearest Green is
the one that came up with the recipeople Jackpans. He
never got one dollar for coming up with the rest
of people. Jackpans now probably the most famous liquor brand
in the world, Top five famous liqui brand in the world.
No imagine if you would have gotten ten cents on
the dollar to you know, his family, his extended family,
(13:41):
maybe there would have been the Nearest Gremuseum, et cetera.
Right when we get written out out of the authorship
of what we create, there's no link backs to us,
and it doesn't many things. A, it hits economically. B.
It also tells other black people that it's not there's
no value to be in food, right. You know, we
(14:02):
brought barbecue to this country. We came up with a
Bourbon's recipe for this in this country. But yet we're
completely honest announce outs the ownership and the authorship of that.
And so we have to stop that. You have to
support each other and find each other because our own
economy we can sustain like businesses and restaurants by supporting
(14:23):
each other.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I know that absolutely and at one hundred percent agree,
and that's that's why I I when I on my
show Money Making Conversations, the show about entrepreneurship, and I
get the interview CEOs and celebrities, entertainers and influencers, and
I have chefs on my show more than anything because
I know that the core of what we do in
a black community is food, good food and being able
(14:46):
to support and make you guys really out of stars.
You know, you just stars of the of the plate,
You just stars of the kitchen. And it doesn't get
recognized enough because people kind of just see you cooking
and you, like you said earlier, there's so much more
influence that comes out of the kitchen based on who
you talk to, who you serve, and who you communicate with.
That sometimes it changes the outlook of the world.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, no, it is. And it's also important because think
about food. Our food rituals are old, right, like it's
important to keep those in our community right. The other
part is also help we can do better than that.
We need to know teach our community to eat healthier
but also environmental, you know what I mean. We're going
to leave leave off the world in a better place
(15:31):
than we got it. Cooking has a lot to do
with that. How do you consume food? Where do we
buy it? How can we do any agree in a context? Now?
Can we make sure, for example, diabetes in our community
is going to go down?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
How we cook, how we is the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Absolutely. I'm talking to a chef, Marcus Samuelson. His fantastic book,
The Rise, Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food
is who I'm talking to right now. A couple of
things from the book, like I said that left me
mouth war around the coconut fried chicken. Because I'm gonna
tell you something, brother, coconut is my number one thing
I love to cook with. I've never ever made coconut
(16:08):
fried chicken. And then then you hit me with this
right here, chef, the oxtail pepper pot with dumplings. Is
that your take on chicken and dumplings with a spin
with the ox.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Tails come within exactly? You know, we don't love an oxtail.
Don't love that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
You have been around out the hugs and chef, when
I saw that oxtail pepper pot with dumpless that's that's good, man,
that's good. And then and then and then see I'm
I'm from Houston, Texas. And wild berries. When I was
a kid, my parents used to take me out and
we just go out and picked wild berries. Man, they
(16:52):
did put some sugar on them, and boy, that was
the best dessert we ever had. Just put some sugar
on some on some wild berrys. And brother, I tell
you that's a dessert right there. Now in this book
you have the sweet wow berry. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Tell us about well, you know berries. You know, I
remember going with my grandmother picking berries. But you know,
you never know what would you would get, you know,
when that's my whole point foraging was. You know, it's
not something to put on Facebook. It was actually something.
You know, if you didn't pick the berries, I might.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Get something on my neck from my grandmother, right, you know,
you know those berries up, just bring them back home
and then you make a jam. And then you know,
if you were lucky lot left over, then you can
you know, do a pie crust and make it. And
that was the best pie ever, right because as a child,
you were part of that. Whether that was blueberry, whether
(17:45):
that was a black currants, whatever it was, right, and
us going out foraging, we didn't know what was going
out for. We were looking with fund blueberries with fine ring.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And then watch out for them snakes. Then watch out
for those snakes. Am I tell a little truth, Marcus?
Am I telling little truth?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Of course? I was always scared about it. My grandmother,
my grandmother, she cut the head off.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yes yet yeah, yeah, oh my god, this is great
talking to you, right. I hope we maintain this relationship, man,
because you're you're you're a strong spirit. And uh and
uh these recipes like I'm gonna tell you, uh, I
would call it the meal or something, but this is
something I've become, I've fallen in love with and it's
in your book, and I never for years, I would
(18:31):
just pass it up. Cous cous I love that. I
love it. And you have a recipe called cous cous
and roasted fig and I love it. I grew up
I had a fig tree in my backyard, fair tree
in the backyard, and we just go and if anybody
has a fig tree, you have figs forever. If you
have a fig tree, you're like a plump tree. It's
(18:52):
just they're just there forever. And so but I've never
seen this mixed before, talk about this couscous and roasted fig.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, you know, we got to think about it healthier
and pus is so light and bright, you know what
I mean. And then just you can add any fruit,
like if you're in the South, you can also add
peaches to that you need, you know that nuts. That's
it's very easy, right. Sometimes we have so much great
food here because it's so easy to cook. Right, you
can soak it or just cook it for five minutes
(19:22):
and steam it and then just folding your peach or
your figs, for example, some nuts, some beautiful freshure, and
you have a snack. You have a lunch. If you
roll some chicken Mber that now you have dinner, you know,
so we've got to call. You know, we always have
to sort of mix up our sides, and that's really
the key being to buy being introduced to different foods.
(19:43):
But you know, that's the key for us to change
our diets so we're not always eating the same.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And that's really important. And when I go through this book,
like I said, you've heard me mentioned the plantain, is,
the coconut fried chicken, pepper pie with dumplings, many more.
I'm just I just picked out a few of my favorites. Okay,
the cous cous and roasted fig you hear me talk
about here, here's something I was I wanted to talk
about at the Dookie Chase that's in New Orleans. I've
(20:11):
been there several times.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Like I said, I lived from Houston, Texas. So my
best friend who's my best man and my wedding, he's
from New Orleans. So I was always in New Orleans.
So I'm very familiar with Dukie Chase. Now lit Chase
has a gumbo recipe in now yeah, Now, I want
to get this straight here because see I'm being honest
with you. I didn't see anything people always here to
say the word rue. You got to have a root
(20:35):
for a gumbo. I don't know what that is. I'm
just gonna let you know, I just I cook it,
just like Liz Chase does you know, I just put
I put it all in the pot. It all goes well.
And because my wife the other day, you know, she
was looking at the recipe. She was over there, you know,
trying to I got to get my root, right, I said,
what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yes, yes, yes, Well this is the thing that both said.
You guys are right right. The root is really the
flour and the butter makes of the flower, and that
you cook out and you get that a little brown, right.
For what's happened how a recipe has evolved. Back in
the day, you couldn't afford a lot of vegetables and
a lot of seafood. So the way something was thicket
(21:15):
was with a thick root, which everybody could afford oil
and flour. But as today, as cooking is now asked,
we can afford more things. We've actually cut down on
the root and adding more oakrah, more more vegetables, and
more seafood into it. Because the root itself doesn't really
have a great taste. So that's why the modern recipes
the root is kind of cut out because the sol
(21:37):
it is it's flower. But you know your white is
right traditionally go way back, a root is definitely there
for that. I mean, you're right, is always.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Right, right, She's right, but look at her. I can't.
I can't waste my time with that root O taste
as I was just like my girl Chase, I just
I just put it together just like that. She uses
fish stock, I use chicken stock. I'm gonna try to
fish and chicken stock this time. And sounded like a
good thing because that fish probably bring me a little
(22:07):
natural salt into that, which is really good from a
natural cooking. But I know we're running out of time here,
but I want to bring up something that growing up, man,
I grew up in the hood, and so you know,
my daughter, my father was truck driver, and my mom
used to make hot water corn break, okay, and to
this day I cannot get that. And then I ran
(22:30):
across these recipe ho cakes in your book.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yes, yes, you know. And that's the whole point about
bringing out things quick things. I mean, think about it.
How incredible our ancestor work, right, that had very little
but we still two hundred, three hundred years later, still
trading on these incredible recipes that our ancestors has ingenieus.
(22:57):
It is black cooking. You can't take it for credit.
You got to appreciate it. And the only way to
do that is to document, to share it and tell stories. Right.
So this this is you were really deep in the
book when you find recipes like that and it's like
we did that, We did that, you know what I mean.
And that's what's really what this book is about. It's
about celebrated black chefs, past, pressure and future.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And that's what I wanted to tell you a little
bit about me in here because I wanted to let
you know how passionate and how detailed this book is
because it hit home so many ways with me because
my wife is from Belize, Okay, so that get that
culture from there, you know what I'm saying. And so
I've been fortunate to travel the world, especially in the Caribbean,
so I'm very familiar with the food down there. You know. Uh,
(23:42):
pork is still was the coolest meat for meat for me.
And so and when I come across a book, you know,
popa AEDs, shrimp and grids, the fried Chicken, wastle, pair
of par of sauce. I'm going like, man, this is
a fantastic book. But on top of that, you know,
the book I'm talking about is The Rise Black Cooks
and the Solo American who is broken up in the
five chapters next remixes one chapter migration is one chapter
(24:05):
of legacy and origin. But the fact that you are
willing to promote the brand of black restaurants throughout this country,
and the fact that you are taking the time to
show support and strong support for these black restaurants across
the country. Your books. You amazing. I know the first
time we've ever talked, man, and I appreciate you and
I value what you're trying to bring to the game
(24:25):
of But also, let's trade numbers, man, because you need
to do a documentary. Brother, That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, yet, that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I don't know you know who I am, but that's
what I do.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
But yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Hey, I want to thank you for coming on Money
Making Conversation. You keep winning.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Thank you so much them too.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
If you want to hear more Money Making Conversations interviews,
please go with money Making Conversation dot com. I'm with
Sean McDonald. I'm your host,
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
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