Two-time Emmy and three-time NAACP Image Award-winning, television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald, interviewed Dr. Michael Giles. Our Virtual Dosing Window™ allows patients to record their take-homes by using a phone or computer to scan the QR code on their methadone bottles and then recording a video of themselves dosing for their care team to review. This patented solution helps build trust between OTP patients and their care teams, empowering clinics with real-time insights to make informed treatment decisions. Sonara also increases patients’ likelihood of earning more take homes, which in turn improves program retention rates.
Since starting Sonara in 2020, Dr. Giles has expanded the solution to a network of modernized, tech-enabled clinics in 11 states that provide accessible, patient-centered care for individuals struggling with OUD.
Sonara® is on a mission to support OTP patients, with a remote dosing solution that makes it easier for people with opioid use disorder to commit to their methadone treatment programs, so they can get their lives back.
Sonara provides OTPs with the confidence they need to approve more take-home doses responsibly, to improve the quality of life for patients and expand treatment accessibility for those who live farther away from clinics. Notable investors in Sonara include Mark Cuban and First Trust Capital.
With Sonara, OTP patients can achieve their treatment goals without putting their lives on hold. To learn more about partnering with Sonara or bringing the Virtual Dosing Window to your OTP, visit sonarahealth.com/contact-us to get in touch.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am Rashan McDonald, the host of Money Making Conversations Masterclass,
where we encourage people to stop reading other people's success
stories and start planning their own. Listen up as I
interview entrepreneurs from around the country, talk to celebrities and
ask them how they are running their companies, and speak
with dog profits who are making a difference in their
(00:26):
local communities. Now, sit back and listen as we unlock
the secrets to their success on Money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome, Welcome,
It's another day the time for Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
I am the host of the show, Rashan McDonald. I
created it in twenty seventeen. It's an idea to be
(00:46):
able to marry information that successful entrepreneurs in the working
platforms can share their success stories or their stories of optimism,
their stories of the moments when they think it was
all going to go bad and how they turn to
write at the ship. And that's what Money Making Conversations
Masters I do. Have celebrities who come on the show
who have an entrepreneurial I and they can share their
(01:08):
stories because we're all in the same boat. That's to
be successful to employ people, pay our taxes on time,
and also create generational wealth. That is what money Making
Conversations Masterclass is all about. The interviews and information that
this show provides really is for everyone. It's time to
stop reading other people's success stories and start living your own.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
If you want to be a guest on my show,
please visit Moneymakingconversations dot com. That's Moneymakingconversations dot com and
click to be a guest button. You submit the information
who you are infyting in the background, and then I
contact you if you submit all the right information to
be a guest on my show. Now let's get to
show rolling. It's a different show because we're talking about
(01:52):
the world of people who are impacted by what's going
on and sometimes can't control their own narrative their organizations.
There are businesses out there they're helping people write the
ship my guests on the show today makes it easier
for people with opr use disorder that's oud to commit
to their methadone treatment program. He has witnessed the devastating
(02:13):
impact of opr use disorder on individuals, families, and their communities.
Please welcome to the Money Making Conversations Masterclass, Doctor Michael Giles.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
How you doing, sir, I'm doing well.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Rashan, I know, but a pridor to the interview.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I called Michael because of the serious nature and I
don't want people to turn off because it's serves is dark.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Now, this is life.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
This is about people who are trying to get on
with their lives that have been impacted by a drug
that's been devastating this country for a number of years now.
You've seen a lot of news stories out there where
larger companies have been sued and judgments have been worn
against them, and communities, not just individuals, but communities and
have been destroyed by this drug OPR drug. Well, people
(02:59):
want to get on with their lives and sometimes this
drug won't allow All the treatment technique that's being offered
to them won't allow them to get on with their lives.
So I invited Michael on the show to talk about it.
Gives a little backround about you before we get started
at Michael Sure.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
So, I'm a psychiatrist and I started a company called
Scenario Health during the last year of my psychiatry training
based on my experience working in an Opioid Treatment Program,
which is the only facility in the United States where
you can receive methadone. So there's about two thousand of
these OTPs across the United States, and the standard of
(03:38):
cares for patients to drive to this clinic every day
for an initial period of time, wait in line, and
then take a dose of the medication methadone in front
of a care provider. Right, And this requirement for daily
visits is really strenuous for patients who have jobs, or
(03:58):
are an education or have kids to take care of.
And you know, I would, you know, when I was
on this rotation, I would advocate these patients to get
take home methodones so they wouldn't have to come in
every day. And the provider often didn't trust the patient.
It seemed like if someone built a tool that gave
patients the opportunity to demonstrate how they're using the medication
(04:20):
at home, that these patients could then get take home
methodone instead of having to come into the clinic every day.
And so that's exactly what our application was designed to do.
We launched at the end.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Oh, before we get too far into the whole process,
because there are steps to that, like you ever said
the doctor did trust the patient. Now we've got to
talk about the idea of you creating this concept and
then implementing the concept or against a beta period, and
then being able to implement it for doctors to trust you.
So when did you first implement the concept as a
(04:54):
band of possibility, Because, like you said, you've seen this
drug devastates the community.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
You've seen this drug.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And and and the way it was being the methadone
was being applied. They had to come up here every day,
like you said, disrupt their life. When did this idea
pop in your head?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
What happened on during my residency I was training, I
was I was just talking to the attending positions, like
the boss docker and I was asking and like, you know,
what would it take for these patients to like get
some take on methadone? And you know, the attending position
the response would be, if I understood how they're using
their medication, I would be more comfortable giving them, you know,
(05:32):
multiple doses so they don't have to come in every day.
So kind of the business concept was designed to solve
a specific problem, right, and it's a problem of patient
provider trust. It's really what our product does solve.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So when you when you talk about this, you know,
because it's all about trust, because like I said, the
doctors see there as a remedy, but they have no
they have no solution. And so when you started sitting down,
did you sit down with family them is said, I
was a friends and I would investors to start building
this concept out. And because everything is is a great concept,
(06:08):
but it also has to be as they say, profitable.
One has to be able to make money if you
have to continue. So break down the whole process of
you know, when you started, okay, this is reality, you
know this can actually happen. Did you go to someone
in the medical field for advice? What did you do?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It's interesting there was a lot of networking, right, Yeah.
The question you're asking is really important, like how do
I know that this is a problem that like is
worth solving, Like are there people who actually use the product?
And so I actually reached out to the private equity
group that owned one of the largest OTPs in the
(06:49):
United States, and I sleep kind of shared my presentation
on like what my vision for our product would be,
and this private ecta group is actually really interested, and
so they introduced me to the CEO of one of
these large OPO trument program companies, and you know, I
think the way to that introduction coming from the private
(07:10):
equity group. Let them take what I was saying more seriously.
And the fact that I was maybe position also helped
add some credibility. And so yeah, when I shared kind
of the concept with the executive leadership at this OPR
trutment program, they were hesitant, but overall like pretty supportive
and they said, yeah, we would love to test something
(07:31):
like this out.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So yeah, so, as we all know, the word in
the test period is called the beta period.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
When you know, you.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Go out there, you making sure there are no bugs
in the process and there are no bad apples in
the process. Now when you when you started choosing you know,
potential patients for this process and explain everybody to the
process right now.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Oh so, we before we launched a full product, we
did have kind of like a test version, and like
we got funding from the National Institute of Health to
pilot our test version. And one of the pilot sites,
like the very first site was in the Tenderline district
(08:18):
of San Francisco, and that's kind of like ground zero,
like if you really want to find out if your
application works, go like, you know, to help obi used
disorder test it out there.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So I was why why do you say that? I'm
just asking why? Why is it because of overorder? Because
it's Silicon Valley with apps and everything's out there and
technologies are such a high level.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah, because the first thing, the burden of like, ohgl
use disorder is very high, specifically like in San Francisco,
but even more so like in the Tenderline district. You know,
like walking to clinic from the subway, you will see
people use seeing drugs outside's a clinic, you will see
(09:02):
people who are in a state of overdose. It's like
it's pretty terrifying. And I was like, man, why are
we launching here? This is like like if this is
like these patients seem so unstable, like how are they
going to use this application? And I learned something then,
because these patients shattered my expectations. All they needed was
(09:22):
just a little bit of something to prove themselves. And
so that's the.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Story of when the me ask you this, doctor Giles,
because I would tell you something from a stereo type
San Francisco wouldn't be the place I would think you
would find a high concentration because I'm thinking San Franciscos, liberal,
very highly educated community. These are the things that run
through my mind. I'm thinking maybe, uh, West Virginia. I'm
(09:48):
thinking maybe Kentucky. I'm thinking rural areas will probably be
high volume usage area. And you're telling me novershan, San Francisco.
Why do I have this stereo type about people who
use opiods.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
In my head?
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Well, the areas you mentioned are kind of where the
epidemics started, so I don't know, maybe there's like a
founder's effect there, but it's spread all across the United States,
and it's you know, it is terrible on the locations
you mentioned, but it's also terrible on other locations people
(10:25):
may not always think of. And so you know, you
have San Francisco, certain parts of it, and it's growing
in San Francisco, and you have like Seattle. So yeah,
it's it's it's growing quicker than it's like being improved.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So you know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
You know, when I was in high school, I was
I did a study on drug addicted babies, babies who
moms or addicted to drugs, and they came out they
were addicted to drugs. So yes, that is you know,
that was one of the most emotional moments in my
young life to see that I'm helpless. I can't do
(11:04):
anything about this, you know, you know, because the problem
started before the child was even born. And so and
then you look at this side of the table, can
you tell me what exactly is opioid?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
So yeah, So an opioid is you know, it's a
class of chemicals naturally occurring and a flower called like
the opium poppy, and it's been used for hundreds of
years for pain control, but it also is like very
addictive and like the modern forms of kind of the
(11:39):
opioid compound have been refined to the point where they
bind to the like pain control and like pleasure receptor
of the brain very very like strongly. And so when
patients stop taking the opioids, which you know now are
(12:00):
often required illicitly and have like sentinel and super dangerous things.
So yet when they stop taking it, they go into
it the withdrawal and they have a very painful food
like illness but way worse than the flu, you know
that last days usually and so yeah, that compels them
to keep using the opioid because they don't want to
(12:20):
go through that experience. And then you know, as their
brain gets used to the opioid to help, the will
require higher and higher doses, and eventually they will requires
such a high dose that the overdose potentially fatal overdose.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, you mentioned the drug in there, fentanyl, because I've
heard that drug tied to opiod. Please explain to my
audience into me. Why do does the word fentanyl pop
up a lot when you hear opioid use.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
So Fentol's driving by and large, like the vast majority
of deaths related to like drug use currently in the
United States, like old fashioned opioids like heroin are actually
pretty rare. Now, centinels is very easy to produce, like
and like home home laboratories, and you only need like
(13:14):
a few grains of sand of it, like in the
thing you're selling in order to you know, satisfy the
person who's trying to wow. Are these opioids and if
you take one or two extra grains of sand and
you could potentially die?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Is that toxic?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Is that toxic?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
It's like the doses micrograms versus like milligrams for like
something like morphine.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Wow, yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Know, you know I first of all, you're doing a great,
great cause, but also you know, as an entrepreneur, you
know this is this is a show about entrepreneurship. This
is about you know, being able to take an idea
and turn it into a concert and then validate that
by turning it into a business model. Now with that
being a business model, because we want to continue to
(14:03):
talk about this, because I want to talk about the
use and you know, the care and all that process.
But it just always amazes me when individuals and I
have to use the word visionary when I talk to
you because I would have never thought about this. That's
why I mentioned to you about my association with drug
addicted babies when I was a senior in high school.
So I've always had this, this this emotional, carying side
(14:27):
of me. How can we stop this? How can we
fix this?
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Now?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I know my situation is different yours, because yours is
about you know, OPI ard use disorder, care a methadon't
they have They have a drug out there that can
assist them, and living a normal life is about how
they are receiving it, and you're stopping that point of
having to come into an office. And I'm sure the
doctors like that because that doesn't slow them down. The
(14:52):
nurses like that doesn't slow them down as well.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Correct, right, Yeah, So they reduced clinic foot traffic when
there's a lot of patients on scenario, and then you
have improved patient retention and so like from a revenue
perspective for our customers, the longer patients and treatment and
more revenue the customer makes. So my reducing dropout we
(15:15):
kind of help customers keep their revenue life cool.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Al do you want to we have to go to
break right quick, Dr Giles, if anyone wants to call in,
because I know the nature of this may have some questions,
may have some family members that you may want to
understand how they can gain use of this. We're going
to find out exactly in the different locations that this
is available, how it can be available as a virtual process,
and that has to be understood as well. When we
(15:40):
return more with money Making Conversations master class with doctor
Michael Giles and his process of being able to help
people with opioid use disorder.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Please don't go anywhere, We'll be right back with more
money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome back to the Money Making
Conversations Masterclass, hosted by Rashaan McDonald. Money Making Conversations Masterclass
(16:11):
continues online at Moneymakingconversations dot com and follow money Making
Conversations Masterclass on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
My guest is doctor Michael Giles. He's inventive there. He's
invented created a methadone treatment program that's virtual, which allows
individuals who are going through these programs not having to
go into a doctor's office. But it's an honor system.
When they take the drug, they videotape themselves and it
gets logged in am I am I shorthanding it correctly
(16:42):
there at doctor Giles.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Yeah, Well, without scenario, it's an honor system. So without
scenario you get take homes and the provider doesn't really
know if you're taking them or not. Right with scenario,
you know for sure whether the patient's taking their medication.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Cool, Now, how does that's a scenario that's the name
of the clinic, say clinic scenario health clinic.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Our application okay o health out the clinic?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
How do they ensure the security and privacy of patient data?
And uh, what measures in place? To comply with these
regulatory requirements, because that's the number one fear I would have,
you know, Yeah, you know I always read about somebody
holding somebody ransom or breaking into How are you protecting
the patient's data?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, so we have a healthcare contract with Google healthcare platform.
So you know, in order for that platform to be legal,
like Google can't access that data, I can't access that data.
Only the treatment team like techno, technical support team and
scenario and the patient have access to that data. And
(17:47):
that data is never used for ads or any other
commercial purposes. It's exclusively to you for treatment planning.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
That's important to know that your information is suddenly appearing
on some a million list and they send you concert
tickets and pizza coupons and things like that. This stuff
is locked in. It is used strictly for their patient
care and not distributed. Like you said, Google doesn't gain access.
You don't gain any personal access to this. No one
gains access to this. This is strictly for the health
(18:17):
care patient, the patient's knowledge in their format.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Correct exactly, the patient and the survivor.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know, we talked about this a little earlier.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
You said, you know, basically the doctors are they feel
very comfortable and happy about this process nor health system?
And then the patients they're the key. How are how
do you recruit your patients? How do they find out
about your health system? And and how do they respond
to it?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Oh man, the patients respond so well because you know,
the typical patients story is, you know, I've been going
to the clinic for months to years and I only
have two or three take on us as a week,
and then all of a sudden, I get put on
SNARIO and I have you know, six or thirteen take
home doses and so like you know, as a patient,
(19:05):
I can now look for an apartment or get a job.
It's pretty life changing. And in places like you know,
Alaska where the patient is driving like two hours one
way to the clinic, I mean, it's literally like the
most kind of freedom enhancing moment that these patients have
had in a long time. So patients love it. And
(19:26):
in terms of like how we choose which patients get
put on it, So when we're implementing at a clinic,
we work with the clinical team there to kind of
draft new clinical criteria for who should be given scenario.
And you know how quickly they should be getting take homes.
(19:47):
And on average, you know, patients on scenario with the
schedules that we created, these clinics have twice a number
of take homes compared to a patient who's been on
Sonaria or sorry, who hasn't been on Sinnaro.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Scenario. The name, how did you come up with the name?
And why I tied to this particular process Scenara.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I mean, we were brainstorming names and someone in our company,
you know, who speaks Spanish, said the word to dream
like the future tense to dream is the word Sonyata,
and I thought that was a really cool name. You know,
you want patients to dream of like a future where
they're there for you, So it just seemed very fitting.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's not only fitting, but it's powerful because you know,
because this is the educational part to me, because you
you you going through life and somehow OPR falls into
your life and you, uh, they call it OPR use
this or the o U D you commit to a
methadone treatment program? Do you ever get off the program?
(20:54):
Doctor Jiles?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yes, that's what the patient's goals are. So I wish
we were at at a point where that was like
the focus, but right now, like most patients drop out
of treatment was in the first sixty days, and you know,
as soon as that happens, the risk of like having
a fatal overdose increases by nearly three hundred percent. And
(21:18):
so you know, the minimum amount of treatment time for
the American Society of Addiction Medicine is one year. So
when we can start getting most patients to one year,
I really want to start thinking about answering the question
you mentioned, like how do we taper patients off? And
you know, eventually they don't need anything, But until we
(21:40):
can solve this kind of crisis in the first sixty days,
we just don't have a bandwage to solve that other
thing right now?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Wow, Because you know, it's like how do you get
your life back if it's still tied to a treatment program?
You know, how do you gain confidence, how do you
have a relationship, how do you how do you do anything?
How do you move on?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You know, with this.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Treatment program, it seems like it's forever going on. You
know now it always tied to anything. You know, just
because there's a program out there, you have to have
eligibility with criteria tied to it, Sonario, what are the
eligibility criteria and also again this is a virtual process,
and before you talk about eligibility criteria, tell them again
how it works, doctor Giles.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, So the way the application works is patients will
get their take home methidena. It'll have a special label
on the bottle and you know there's one dose per
bottle and you just use one bottle per day. And
so you're at home with all these bottles and you know,
you log into snarti app and you press to take
my dose button and says then it'll ask you scan
(22:46):
the QR code on the methodone bottle. So you'll scan
it and then it'll you know, we'll confirm that that
bottle has never been scanned or used before. And then
it'll flip to the front facing camera and you know,
we give the patient self une stands and so the
patient will put the cell phone on the self unstand
and they'll open the bottle and take the medication. And
(23:09):
so you know that whole process takes about seventy two
seconds on average across the hundreds of thousands of doses
be recorded. You compare that seventy two seconds two hours
of your day if you're not using scenario wow, trying
to go to the clinic.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
That's the process. So how does one as a patient
qualify or what is the criteria to qualify for the
use of this type of scenario health solution?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Now that is a much more complicated question unfortunately. So
like macedone is probably the most regulated medication in the
United States, and every state has their own rules for
how methadone can be prescribed, so it really will vary
from state to state. And then on top of that,
(23:58):
every clinic has their own culture and you know, our job,
it's scenarios to try to make clinics have the most
patient centered culture possible. But the best answer to that
question are really going to depend on where the patients live.
But you have some common factors though, like you're on
a stable dose in methodone, so you're not needing to
go up and down all the time in your dose wow.
(24:23):
You know, attendance hasn't been too much of an issue,
you know, conversly, right, if the attendance is an issue,
maybe you need sonarto, right, So just it really it
really depends on kind of the clinics.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, you know, the things about you're based in Houston, Texas. Correct, Dallas, Dallas.
Text You're based in Dallas, Texas. Apologize Scenari Health Solutions. Now,
what's the future? You know, you got it rolling. We
know this is a business as you know, entrepreneurship kicked in,
but it's also helping people get their lives back. What
(24:56):
is in product development or outreach program?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
What do you have? What's that's the next step for
son Our Health Solutions.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, so right now our application is really centered on
kind of this virtual dosing window experience, you know, recreating
the in person dosing but like more conveniently even your
cell phone at your home. We want to expand that
to be more broadly just patient engagement, specifically the kind
of answer one of the questions you asked earlier, like
(25:25):
how does the picture come off the system? Right, So,
we don't want the patient to have to record every
day if they're clinically stable. It's intrusive and not nice,
and so we'll just have kind of more generally useful
patient engagement tools like messaging, counseling sessions, virtual intakes, things
like that. So that's kind of the future of our product.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, you know, some doctor Giles I'm proud of you,
my man. You know, I say that because not many people.
You know, there are people out there making money off
of car and making making money off of Hamburgers, and
businesses set up and these are fantastic. There are not
many businesses that are set up to save people's lives
(26:10):
and change communities. And that's what you're doing. You know,
if nobody's saying that to you, let me say that
to you. Because the fact that I was in the
hospital for thirty days one time in my life, and
they had a drug attached to me because I was
in so much pain. I would press a button and now,
after a while, the drug will stop entering my system.
(26:30):
But I kept pressing that button because they knew if
I just kept pressing that button, I would become addicted
to that drug. So eventually I had to learn to
live with the pain, and eventually I got off of
They weaned me off of that machine. So I know
what addiction can feel like. I know the impact of
that machine not being and managed correctly, how I could
(26:51):
have impacted my life today. But I brought you on
this show. You know, you're a different type of entrepreneur.
I brought on this show, but I thought it was
necessary for people to hear here that there are many
ways people out there being entrepreneurs, changing people's lives and
being a positive force in the community. And that's what
you are, my brother, and I always know I'm I'm
(27:11):
a fan and uh as I always say my show,
I close it out with the word keep winning. I'm
gonna tell you, my friend, keep winning as we close
it is any contact information you want to share.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
With my audience, Yeah, you know, anyone's interested in sonar,
I feel free to email Phil Phil at Scenari Health
dot com and you will reach it back out to you.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Thank you, my friend for taking the time to come
on Money Making Conversation master Class.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Stay safe, okay to thank you Rashan.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
This has been another edition of Money Making Conversation Masterclass
posted by me Rashawn McDonald. Thank you to our guests
on the show today and thank you. I'll listen to
the audience now. If you want to listen to any
episode I want to be a guest on the show,
visit Moneymakingconversations dot com should be the handle is money
Making Conversation. Join us next week and remember to always.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Leave with your gifts keep winning.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Mm hmm
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I am Rashan McDonald, the host of Money Making Conversations Masterclass,
where we encourage people to stop reading other people's success
stories and start planning their own. Listen up as I
interview entrepreneurs from around the country, talk to celebrities and
ask them how they are running their companies, and speak
with dog profits who are making a difference in their
(00:26):
local communities. Now, sit back and listen as we unlock
the secrets to their success on Money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome, Welcome,
It's another day the time for Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
I am the host of the show, Rashan McDonald. I
created it in twenty seventeen. It's an idea to be
(00:46):
able to marry information that successful entrepreneurs in the working
platforms can share their success stories or their stories of optimism,
their stories of the moments when they think it was
all going to go bad and how they turn to
write at the ship. And that's what Money Making Conversations
Masters I do. Have celebrities who come on the show
who have an entrepreneurial I and they can share their
(01:08):
stories because we're all in the same boat. That's to
be successful to employ people, pay our taxes on time,
and also create generational wealth. That is what money Making
Conversations Masterclass is all about. The interviews and information that
this show provides really is for everyone. It's time to
stop reading other people's success stories and start living your own.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
If you want to be a guest on my show,
please visit Moneymakingconversations dot com. That's Moneymakingconversations dot com and
click to be a guest button. You submit the information
who you are infyting in the background, and then I
contact you if you submit all the right information to
be a guest on my show. Now let's get to
show rolling. It's a different show because we're talking about
(01:52):
the world of people who are impacted by what's going
on and sometimes can't control their own narrative their organizations.
There are businesses out there they're helping people write the
ship my guests on the show today makes it easier
for people with opr use disorder that's oud to commit
to their methadone treatment program. He has witnessed the devastating
(02:13):
impact of opr use disorder on individuals, families, and their communities.
Please welcome to the Money Making Conversations Masterclass, Doctor Michael Giles.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
How you doing, sir, I'm doing well.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Rashan, I know, but a pridor to the interview.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I called Michael because of the serious nature and I
don't want people to turn off because it's serves is dark.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Now, this is life.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
This is about people who are trying to get on
with their lives that have been impacted by a drug
that's been devastating this country for a number of years now.
You've seen a lot of news stories out there where
larger companies have been sued and judgments have been worn
against them, and communities, not just individuals, but communities and
have been destroyed by this drug OPR drug. Well, people
(02:59):
want to get on with their lives and sometimes this
drug won't allow All the treatment technique that's being offered
to them won't allow them to get on with their lives.
So I invited Michael on the show to talk about it.
Gives a little backround about you before we get started
at Michael Sure.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
So, I'm a psychiatrist and I started a company called
Scenario Health during the last year of my psychiatry training
based on my experience working in an Opioid Treatment Program,
which is the only facility in the United States where
you can receive methadone. So there's about two thousand of
these OTPs across the United States, and the standard of
(03:38):
cares for patients to drive to this clinic every day
for an initial period of time, wait in line, and
then take a dose of the medication methadone in front
of a care provider. Right, And this requirement for daily
visits is really strenuous for patients who have jobs, or
(03:58):
are an education or have kids to take care of.
And you know, I would, you know, when I was
on this rotation, I would advocate these patients to get
take home methodones so they wouldn't have to come in
every day. And the provider often didn't trust the patient.
It seemed like if someone built a tool that gave
patients the opportunity to demonstrate how they're using the medication
(04:20):
at home, that these patients could then get take home
methodone instead of having to come into the clinic every day.
And so that's exactly what our application was designed to do.
We launched at the end.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Oh, before we get too far into the whole process,
because there are steps to that, like you ever said
the doctor did trust the patient. Now we've got to
talk about the idea of you creating this concept and
then implementing the concept or against a beta period, and
then being able to implement it for doctors to trust you.
So when did you first implement the concept as a
(04:54):
band of possibility, Because, like you said, you've seen this
drug devastates the community.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
You've seen this drug.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And and and the way it was being the methadone
was being applied. They had to come up here every day,
like you said, disrupt their life. When did this idea
pop in your head?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
What happened on during my residency I was training, I
was I was just talking to the attending positions, like
the boss docker and I was asking and like, you know,
what would it take for these patients to like get
some take on methadone? And you know, the attending position
the response would be, if I understood how they're using
their medication, I would be more comfortable giving them, you know,
(05:32):
multiple doses so they don't have to come in every day.
So kind of the business concept was designed to solve
a specific problem, right, and it's a problem of patient
provider trust. It's really what our product does solve.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So when you when you talk about this, you know,
because it's all about trust, because like I said, the
doctors see there as a remedy, but they have no
they have no solution. And so when you started sitting down,
did you sit down with family them is said, I
was a friends and I would investors to start building
this concept out. And because everything is is a great concept,
(06:08):
but it also has to be as they say, profitable.
One has to be able to make money if you
have to continue. So break down the whole process of
you know, when you started, okay, this is reality, you
know this can actually happen. Did you go to someone
in the medical field for advice? What did you do?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It's interesting there was a lot of networking, right, Yeah.
The question you're asking is really important, like how do
I know that this is a problem that like is
worth solving, Like are there people who actually use the product?
And so I actually reached out to the private equity
group that owned one of the largest OTPs in the
(06:49):
United States, and I sleep kind of shared my presentation
on like what my vision for our product would be,
and this private ecta group is actually really interested, and
so they introduced me to the CEO of one of
these large OPO trument program companies, and you know, I
think the way to that introduction coming from the private
(07:10):
equity group. Let them take what I was saying more seriously.
And the fact that I was maybe position also helped
add some credibility. And so yeah, when I shared kind
of the concept with the executive leadership at this OPR
trutment program, they were hesitant, but overall like pretty supportive
and they said, yeah, we would love to test something
(07:31):
like this out.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So yeah, so, as we all know, the word in
the test period is called the beta period.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
When you know, you.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Go out there, you making sure there are no bugs
in the process and there are no bad apples in
the process. Now when you when you started choosing you know,
potential patients for this process and explain everybody to the
process right now.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Oh so, we before we launched a full product, we
did have kind of like a test version, and like
we got funding from the National Institute of Health to
pilot our test version. And one of the pilot sites,
like the very first site was in the Tenderline district
(08:18):
of San Francisco, and that's kind of like ground zero,
like if you really want to find out if your
application works, go like, you know, to help obi used
disorder test it out there.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So I was why why do you say that? I'm
just asking why? Why is it because of overorder? Because
it's Silicon Valley with apps and everything's out there and
technologies are such a high level.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah, because the first thing, the burden of like, ohgl
use disorder is very high, specifically like in San Francisco,
but even more so like in the Tenderline district. You know,
like walking to clinic from the subway, you will see
people use seeing drugs outside's a clinic, you will see
(09:02):
people who are in a state of overdose. It's like
it's pretty terrifying. And I was like, man, why are
we launching here? This is like like if this is
like these patients seem so unstable, like how are they
going to use this application? And I learned something then,
because these patients shattered my expectations. All they needed was
(09:22):
just a little bit of something to prove themselves. And
so that's the.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Story of when the me ask you this, doctor Giles,
because I would tell you something from a stereo type
San Francisco wouldn't be the place I would think you
would find a high concentration because I'm thinking San Franciscos, liberal,
very highly educated community. These are the things that run
through my mind. I'm thinking maybe, uh, West Virginia. I'm
(09:48):
thinking maybe Kentucky. I'm thinking rural areas will probably be
high volume usage area. And you're telling me novershan, San Francisco.
Why do I have this stereo type about people who
use opiods.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
In my head?
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Well, the areas you mentioned are kind of where the
epidemics started, so I don't know, maybe there's like a
founder's effect there, but it's spread all across the United States,
and it's you know, it is terrible on the locations
you mentioned, but it's also terrible on other locations people
(10:25):
may not always think of. And so you know, you
have San Francisco, certain parts of it, and it's growing
in San Francisco, and you have like Seattle. So yeah,
it's it's it's growing quicker than it's like being improved.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So you know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
You know, when I was in high school, I was
I did a study on drug addicted babies, babies who
moms or addicted to drugs, and they came out they
were addicted to drugs. So yes, that is you know,
that was one of the most emotional moments in my
young life to see that I'm helpless. I can't do
(11:04):
anything about this, you know, you know, because the problem
started before the child was even born. And so and
then you look at this side of the table, can
you tell me what exactly is opioid?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
So yeah, So an opioid is you know, it's a
class of chemicals naturally occurring and a flower called like
the opium poppy, and it's been used for hundreds of
years for pain control, but it also is like very
addictive and like the modern forms of kind of the
(11:39):
opioid compound have been refined to the point where they
bind to the like pain control and like pleasure receptor
of the brain very very like strongly. And so when
patients stop taking the opioids, which you know now are
(12:00):
often required illicitly and have like sentinel and super dangerous things.
So yet when they stop taking it, they go into
it the withdrawal and they have a very painful food
like illness but way worse than the flu, you know
that last days usually and so yeah, that compels them
to keep using the opioid because they don't want to
(12:20):
go through that experience. And then you know, as their
brain gets used to the opioid to help, the will
require higher and higher doses, and eventually they will requires
such a high dose that the overdose potentially fatal overdose.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, you mentioned the drug in there, fentanyl, because I've
heard that drug tied to opiod. Please explain to my
audience into me. Why do does the word fentanyl pop
up a lot when you hear opioid use.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
So Fentol's driving by and large, like the vast majority
of deaths related to like drug use currently in the
United States, like old fashioned opioids like heroin are actually
pretty rare. Now, centinels is very easy to produce, like
and like home home laboratories, and you only need like
(13:14):
a few grains of sand of it, like in the
thing you're selling in order to you know, satisfy the
person who's trying to wow. Are these opioids and if
you take one or two extra grains of sand and
you could potentially die?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Is that toxic?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Is that toxic?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
It's like the doses micrograms versus like milligrams for like
something like morphine.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Wow, yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Know, you know I first of all, you're doing a great,
great cause, but also you know, as an entrepreneur, you
know this is this is a show about entrepreneurship. This
is about you know, being able to take an idea
and turn it into a concert and then validate that
by turning it into a business model. Now with that
being a business model, because we want to continue to
(14:03):
talk about this, because I want to talk about the
use and you know, the care and all that process.
But it just always amazes me when individuals and I
have to use the word visionary when I talk to
you because I would have never thought about this. That's
why I mentioned to you about my association with drug
addicted babies when I was a senior in high school.
So I've always had this, this this emotional, carying side
(14:27):
of me. How can we stop this? How can we
fix this?
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Now?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I know my situation is different yours, because yours is
about you know, OPI ard use disorder, care a methadon't
they have They have a drug out there that can
assist them, and living a normal life is about how
they are receiving it, and you're stopping that point of
having to come into an office. And I'm sure the
doctors like that because that doesn't slow them down. The
(14:52):
nurses like that doesn't slow them down as well.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Correct, right, Yeah, So they reduced clinic foot traffic when
there's a lot of patients on scenario, and then you
have improved patient retention and so like from a revenue
perspective for our customers, the longer patients and treatment and
more revenue the customer makes. So my reducing dropout we
(15:15):
kind of help customers keep their revenue life cool.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Al do you want to we have to go to
break right quick, Dr Giles, if anyone wants to call in,
because I know the nature of this may have some questions,
may have some family members that you may want to
understand how they can gain use of this. We're going
to find out exactly in the different locations that this
is available, how it can be available as a virtual process,
and that has to be understood as well. When we
(15:40):
return more with money Making Conversations master class with doctor
Michael Giles and his process of being able to help
people with opioid use disorder.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Please don't go anywhere, We'll be right back with more
money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome back to the Money Making
Conversations Masterclass, hosted by Rashaan McDonald. Money Making Conversations Masterclass
(16:11):
continues online at Moneymakingconversations dot com and follow money Making
Conversations Masterclass on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
My guest is doctor Michael Giles. He's inventive there. He's
invented created a methadone treatment program that's virtual, which allows
individuals who are going through these programs not having to
go into a doctor's office. But it's an honor system.
When they take the drug, they videotape themselves and it
gets logged in am I am I shorthanding it correctly
(16:42):
there at doctor Giles.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Yeah, Well, without scenario, it's an honor system. So without
scenario you get take homes and the provider doesn't really
know if you're taking them or not. Right with scenario,
you know for sure whether the patient's taking their medication.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Cool, Now, how does that's a scenario that's the name
of the clinic, say clinic scenario health clinic.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Our application okay o health out the clinic?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
How do they ensure the security and privacy of patient data?
And uh, what measures in place? To comply with these
regulatory requirements, because that's the number one fear I would have,
you know, Yeah, you know I always read about somebody
holding somebody ransom or breaking into How are you protecting
the patient's data?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, so we have a healthcare contract with Google healthcare platform.
So you know, in order for that platform to be legal,
like Google can't access that data, I can't access that data.
Only the treatment team like techno, technical support team and
scenario and the patient have access to that data. And
(17:47):
that data is never used for ads or any other
commercial purposes. It's exclusively to you for treatment planning.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
That's important to know that your information is suddenly appearing
on some a million list and they send you concert
tickets and pizza coupons and things like that. This stuff
is locked in. It is used strictly for their patient
care and not distributed. Like you said, Google doesn't gain access.
You don't gain any personal access to this. No one
gains access to this. This is strictly for the health
(18:17):
care patient, the patient's knowledge in their format.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Correct exactly, the patient and the survivor.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know, we talked about this a little earlier.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
You said, you know, basically the doctors are they feel
very comfortable and happy about this process nor health system?
And then the patients they're the key. How are how
do you recruit your patients? How do they find out
about your health system? And and how do they respond
to it?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Oh man, the patients respond so well because you know,
the typical patients story is, you know, I've been going
to the clinic for months to years and I only
have two or three take on us as a week,
and then all of a sudden, I get put on
SNARIO and I have you know, six or thirteen take
home doses and so like you know, as a patient,
(19:05):
I can now look for an apartment or get a job.
It's pretty life changing. And in places like you know,
Alaska where the patient is driving like two hours one
way to the clinic, I mean, it's literally like the
most kind of freedom enhancing moment that these patients have
had in a long time. So patients love it. And
(19:26):
in terms of like how we choose which patients get
put on it, So when we're implementing at a clinic,
we work with the clinical team there to kind of
draft new clinical criteria for who should be given scenario.
And you know how quickly they should be getting take homes.
(19:47):
And on average, you know, patients on scenario with the
schedules that we created, these clinics have twice a number
of take homes compared to a patient who's been on
Sonaria or sorry, who hasn't been on Sinnaro.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Scenario. The name, how did you come up with the name?
And why I tied to this particular process Scenara.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I mean, we were brainstorming names and someone in our company,
you know, who speaks Spanish, said the word to dream
like the future tense to dream is the word Sonyata,
and I thought that was a really cool name. You know,
you want patients to dream of like a future where
they're there for you, So it just seemed very fitting.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's not only fitting, but it's powerful because you know,
because this is the educational part to me, because you
you you going through life and somehow OPR falls into
your life and you, uh, they call it OPR use
this or the o U D you commit to a
methadone treatment program? Do you ever get off the program?
(20:54):
Doctor Jiles?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yes, that's what the patient's goals are. So I wish
we were at at a point where that was like
the focus, but right now, like most patients drop out
of treatment was in the first sixty days, and you know,
as soon as that happens, the risk of like having
a fatal overdose increases by nearly three hundred percent. And
(21:18):
so you know, the minimum amount of treatment time for
the American Society of Addiction Medicine is one year. So
when we can start getting most patients to one year,
I really want to start thinking about answering the question
you mentioned, like how do we taper patients off? And
you know, eventually they don't need anything, But until we
(21:40):
can solve this kind of crisis in the first sixty days,
we just don't have a bandwage to solve that other
thing right now?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Wow, Because you know, it's like how do you get
your life back if it's still tied to a treatment program?
You know, how do you gain confidence, how do you
have a relationship, how do you how do you do anything?
How do you move on?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You know, with this.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Treatment program, it seems like it's forever going on. You
know now it always tied to anything. You know, just
because there's a program out there, you have to have
eligibility with criteria tied to it, Sonario, what are the
eligibility criteria and also again this is a virtual process,
and before you talk about eligibility criteria, tell them again
how it works, doctor Giles.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, So the way the application works is patients will
get their take home methidena. It'll have a special label
on the bottle and you know there's one dose per
bottle and you just use one bottle per day. And
so you're at home with all these bottles and you know,
you log into snarti app and you press to take
my dose button and says then it'll ask you scan
(22:46):
the QR code on the methodone bottle. So you'll scan
it and then it'll you know, we'll confirm that that
bottle has never been scanned or used before. And then
it'll flip to the front facing camera and you know,
we give the patient self une stands and so the
patient will put the cell phone on the self unstand
and they'll open the bottle and take the medication. And
(23:09):
so you know that whole process takes about seventy two
seconds on average across the hundreds of thousands of doses
be recorded. You compare that seventy two seconds two hours
of your day if you're not using scenario wow, trying
to go to the clinic.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
That's the process. So how does one as a patient
qualify or what is the criteria to qualify for the
use of this type of scenario health solution?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Now that is a much more complicated question unfortunately. So
like macedone is probably the most regulated medication in the
United States, and every state has their own rules for
how methadone can be prescribed, so it really will vary
from state to state. And then on top of that,
(23:58):
every clinic has their own culture and you know, our job,
it's scenarios to try to make clinics have the most
patient centered culture possible. But the best answer to that
question are really going to depend on where the patients live.
But you have some common factors though, like you're on
a stable dose in methodone, so you're not needing to
go up and down all the time in your dose wow.
(24:23):
You know, attendance hasn't been too much of an issue,
you know, conversly, right, if the attendance is an issue,
maybe you need sonarto, right, So just it really it
really depends on kind of the clinics.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, you know, the things about you're based in Houston, Texas. Correct, Dallas, Dallas.
Text You're based in Dallas, Texas. Apologize Scenari Health Solutions. Now,
what's the future? You know, you got it rolling. We
know this is a business as you know, entrepreneurship kicked in,
but it's also helping people get their lives back. What
(24:56):
is in product development or outreach program?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
What do you have? What's that's the next step for
son Our Health Solutions.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, so right now our application is really centered on
kind of this virtual dosing window experience, you know, recreating
the in person dosing but like more conveniently even your
cell phone at your home. We want to expand that
to be more broadly just patient engagement, specifically the kind
of answer one of the questions you asked earlier, like
(25:25):
how does the picture come off the system? Right, So,
we don't want the patient to have to record every
day if they're clinically stable. It's intrusive and not nice,
and so we'll just have kind of more generally useful
patient engagement tools like messaging, counseling sessions, virtual intakes, things
like that. So that's kind of the future of our product.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Well, you know, some doctor Giles I'm proud of you,
my man. You know, I say that because not many people.
You know, there are people out there making money off
of car and making making money off of Hamburgers, and
businesses set up and these are fantastic. There are not
many businesses that are set up to save people's lives
(26:10):
and change communities. And that's what you're doing. You know,
if nobody's saying that to you, let me say that
to you. Because the fact that I was in the
hospital for thirty days one time in my life, and
they had a drug attached to me because I was
in so much pain. I would press a button and now,
after a while, the drug will stop entering my system.
(26:30):
But I kept pressing that button because they knew if
I just kept pressing that button, I would become addicted
to that drug. So eventually I had to learn to
live with the pain, and eventually I got off of
They weaned me off of that machine. So I know
what addiction can feel like. I know the impact of
that machine not being and managed correctly, how I could
(26:51):
have impacted my life today. But I brought you on
this show. You know, you're a different type of entrepreneur.
I brought on this show, but I thought it was
necessary for people to hear here that there are many
ways people out there being entrepreneurs, changing people's lives and
being a positive force in the community. And that's what
you are, my brother, and I always know I'm I'm
(27:11):
a fan and uh as I always say my show,
I close it out with the word keep winning. I'm
gonna tell you, my friend, keep winning as we close
it is any contact information you want to share.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
With my audience, Yeah, you know, anyone's interested in sonar,
I feel free to email Phil Phil at Scenari Health
dot com and you will reach it back out to you.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Thank you, my friend for taking the time to come
on Money Making Conversation master Class.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Stay safe, okay to thank you Rashan.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
This has been another edition of Money Making Conversation Masterclass
posted by me Rashawn McDonald. Thank you to our guests
on the show today and thank you. I'll listen to
the audience now. If you want to listen to any
episode I want to be a guest on the show,
visit Moneymakingconversations dot com should be the handle is money
Making Conversation. Join us next week and remember to always.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Leave with your gifts keep winning.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Mm hmm
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