Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I gotta tell you today is going to be a
really neat show. We are strung out across across this
nation right now. I am at Ghost Eye Manor in
beautiful Uinta County, northern u Into County. Denny is there
in the station at our iHeart main station in h
in In Well technically West Valley. And Bill you are
(00:23):
in Where are you at? Bill?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm in I'm in Sandy at the Rocky Mountain Gun
Show here. So we're broadcasting live from from the gun
show today.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Here.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We've got a booth. We're here with Sure Talk Radio.
They're they're showing up their radios and right next to
medic Gaps so you can't miss us.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I just I just got word that Denny Casey Jane
says we were live on commercials during the commercials, I
don't yeah. I mean, hey, this is at least that's
the and that's that's iHeart. So that's uh, you know yeah.
So so that's that. And then we also have uh
(01:08):
where we're going to have Mirra O'Connell, who is the
CEO of Ergo Grips Dot orgo grips Dot, and that
she is also a uh with Women Against Gun control
gun rights, Women for Gun Rights, Yes, Women for Gun Right,
just they changed the name a while ago, and so uh.
(01:29):
And we're gonna have Mira on with some very interesting
research that she has done. And Bill, you and I
have talked about this previously on that constant drone from
the anti bedwetters. No, that the actual pro bedwetters about
childhood deaths versus everything else with firearms. So we're gonna
(01:53):
have some interesting research. And then fourth segment we're gonna
have talking about research. We're gonna have doctor John Lott
on and he's going to talk about amekas brief that
he has, like a friend of the court brief to
the I think it's to the Hawaii Court. I don't.
I don't think it's Ninth Circuit because it's talking about
(02:14):
trying to get reversed a Ninth Circuit ruling on where
you can carry where you can carry firearms. And it
has to do with the vampire clause. Bill, do you
remember what the vampire clause is? Do you know before
before a vampire you know, if a vampire comes to
your door, Bill, can he just walk in? No, he
(02:35):
has to be actually affirmatively invited in And that is
literally the vampire clause, which a few states, including Hawaii,
have been trying to do. So it's called a reversal
of Well anyway, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll talk to John
Lott about that. So yeah, oh hey. On a sad note,
(02:58):
Martin Tuisson, and some of you may know that name,
but he is the CEO, was the CEO of Arms
Corps and Rock Island Armory out of and he was
out of the Philippines, but he would come back here
come to Utah quite often. In fact, he was just
in Utah last week. He has passed away unexpectedly. He
(03:19):
was fifty one years old and leaves his wife and family,
and so our thoughts go out to his family and
to all the Arms Cores and Rock Island Armory team
of families there. So I reached out to lynd Gomez
and told her we're sorry to hear about that, but
that just happened, I think either this morning or last night.
(03:40):
So Martin Tuisson anyway, all right, So now we've got
a few minutes. What I wanted to when I wanted
to go over is Bill. Where are you now?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I'm at the Mountain America Credit Union expos Center here
in Sandy, the Rocky Mountain Gun Show.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You're at the Rocky Mountain Gun Show.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So Sure Talk Radio booth, the Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Talk Radio booth. Okay, Oh, in fact, we have a
new we have a new ad for them. We have
a new ad for them coming right up. You know
what I think I'm gonna do is since we have
a few minutes right in this in this first segment,
still Marra, I'm going to have you come on right now,
and I want to talk about some of this research.
So Rayel Cunningham with Women for Gun Rights, we actually
(04:31):
were at a Project Child's Safe program through the National
Shooting Sports Foundation earlier this week, and she said, Hey,
I've got somebody fantastic that you need to talk to
and mirror. You are that person you've done some research on. Well,
tell us about this research that you just had you
(04:52):
just did.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, Product child Safe is phenomenal project. So thank you
for having me on, gentlemen. I've been working these last
few years on doing research through my advocacy work so
that I have information to present to politicians and people
that I come across during advocacy work. But I've been
hearing a lot of information that didn't wasn't adding up
(05:15):
to what I was seeing on the CDC website, and
so I decided to do a full blown research project
this year. And it's based on the twenty two and
twenty three findings. And you've probably all heard a politician
or somewhere on social media that they say that guns
are the number one death or cause of death of
children in the United States and teens. So that is
(05:38):
just not factually based. So I started doing my researchers
try to start breaking it down to see where are
these people getting in this information, why are they saying
these things? So on average, every year, about thirty five
thousand juveniles die in the United States, Over half of
those are infants under the age of one. The majority
(05:59):
of these deaths are considered non injury due to medical
causes diseases, medical conditions, illnesses, and about seventy one percent
both twenty two and twenty three were from medical related causes.
So what these groups are doing is they're disregarding medical deaths.
It doesn't you know, they don't want to look at
(06:19):
that because that's truly what most children are passing.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Away they're so are you saying they're not even putting
them into the mix.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well. See so International Categorization of Diseases ICD is how
they code CDC codes deaths in the United States. And
of those or one hundred and fifty five thousand different codes,
over half of those codes are medical related codes and
about fourteen really about eleven relevant eleven or twelve relevant
(06:47):
are related to firearms. So what they're doing is they'll
they disregard the whole group. They just they try to
just bring out specific medical issues like cancer or SIDS
or something like that. So they're breaking all the medical
issues into different category. So that brings it down. But
if you add all the medical related illnesses, deaths from illnesses, conditions,
(07:11):
then then you get that's the largest number of deaths.
And so they add all the firearms related categories, whether
it's intentional, assault, suicide, undetermined, they add all those together,
but they don't do that with medical So that's one
of the ways they they're trying to get to these
numbers that they want to get to.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So basically, I mean what you're saying is they have
some numbers that they want to that they want to
show up, and they manipulate the data in such a
way intel, it meets what they want to say.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, it's called statistical distortion or manipulation. And so in
this case, one of the other things they did is
they disregarded deaths under age one. So that's like an
undercoverage or a selection bias, where they're just select certain
groups that they know will produce more of the numbers
that they're looking at, instead of producing all of juvenile
(08:07):
deaths because you know, ninety percent of underage one deaths
are all medical related. Yeah, so it's a way.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And I have I have noticed that in there when
they say that and they point, they play fast and
loose with their words. It's children and young adults they'll
throw in there, because sometimes they go to nineteen to
twenty one to twenty four. I've seen some research that
actually are we'll still calling them kids at twenty four
years old. So I'm looking at your data here and
(08:38):
uh and for those of you that would like to
look at this data, it's very nice. You can print
it out, it's it's very You've done a great job
in making it easy to view. Go to ergogrips dot
net and then it's dash twenty or no slash twenty
twenty three Dash CDC Dash data. But if you get
(09:01):
in there ergogrips dot net slash twenty twenty three, it'll
find it. I've found that on the Google searchers and
that and find out. But anyway, so I'm looking and
one to four ages one through four we have that.
Oh and Bill is telling me. So when we come
back on Gun Radio, Utah, we're going to explain examine
(09:23):
one to four and five to nine and even older.
So stay right there, we'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That's the Mountain America Credit Union Expo Center here in Sandy,
And if you got some time you want to head
on over after the show, we'll be here till five
o'clock and the show will run from nine to three tomorrow. Okay,
so before we kind of laugh, Clark, we've got Mara
O'Connell on the line with Ergo Grips and we're talking
(09:52):
about some of the statistics and you're ready to go
into a thought process before I kind of cut you off.
And I didn't mean to cut you off, but I
knew we're kind of on some hard stops there.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So well, yeah, and thank you, Bill. I sometimes I
just get a little carried away. So Mera. You're an
advocate for women for gun rights as well as just
being the CEO also of Ergo Grips. By the way,
I stopped by every shot show and check out and
so if you if you have a grip that you
need for a pistol, a rifle, a shotgun, all sorts
(10:26):
of stuff, you've got to check out Ergo Grips dot net. So,
and this was not meant to be a commercial, but
it is fantastic. I have roomfuls of these Ergo grips
on my gun. So it was just it was just
fortuitous that you happen to be the advocate for this.
So was there anything surprising that you found in your
data while you were doing this research?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, you know, we hear so much about gun storage laws.
In fact, twenty six states have gun storage laws. And
I was really surprised if finds the amount there was
forty five and twenty twenty two of us from accidental
firearm discharges deaths. And I was really surprised to find
out in twenty point two fourteen kids were fourteen times
more likely to die from drowning. Over six hundred children
(11:13):
died from drowning the same year. So we seem to
be like hyper focused on one area when we're not
really giving parents the opportunity to be educated and we're
not putting funding towards all these other areas that have
just you know, have all these serious dangers that parents
need to be educated on.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, And you bring up a very good point, because
you know, as parents, we've got so many different things
that we need to watch out for our kids for,
and sometimes we're unaware of some of the dangers within
our own home. And yes, firearms, we have been huge
advocates for, yes, always store your firearms in such a
way that you can deny access to anyone who shouldn't
(11:56):
have access to them. Boom, that will take care of
your guns. But what about everything else? And we're led
to believe by some of these hand ringing, bedwetting groups
that firearms are the biggest and almost the only danger
to our kids, when in reality it's it's much much,
(12:16):
much smaller. And I think they're doing well, they're definitely
doing a disservice. Had they done nothing, had they said
nothing about this, it would have been it would have
been better than manipulating the data in such a way
that it makes one drownings look less prevalent, right.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And on the same course, you only six states have
pool safety laws, and I was surprised to find out
that most drownings, accidental drownings, happen in pools. And according
to the National Prevention of Now General Drowning Provincial Alliance
of those drownings parent present.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, you know some interesting research. While I was tailing
off of your research, I looked at doctor John Lotte's
research and found a real interesting thing. When we talk
about the accident, the actual accidental gun deaths does not
mean that they were that the kid was holding the
gun themselves, but that it was determined in the reports
(13:26):
that it was an accident that the gun discharged. But
what interesting is that for children under eighteen, it averaged
ninety two accidental gun deaths a year. For those under
ten earlier, the research shows that about two thirds of
those that were accidentally shot to death were shot by
(13:48):
adult males, usually in their twenties, who have violent criminal
records and our drug addicts or alcoholics. And we're obviously
let to believe that, oh, no, these were little kids
that got these guns and accidentally shot themselves. No, these
were criminals with guns where you know, the safe storage
(14:10):
laws would have zero effect on these criminals and their
gun handling.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Absolutely. And you know, like I said, I there's just
so much of education it's needed in so many of
these other areas. And the sad part about it is
very little funding is put towards gun safety. You know,
two point four million from Project Child Safe, only about
five thousand from Eddie Eagle every year. But you know,
(14:38):
millions and millions towards gun control. And you know you
have like almost four million towards water safety, thirty eight
million towards fire prevention safety. One of the other hazards fires,
it's juveniles of all ages are five times more likely
to die in a fire than accidental discharge of a firearm,
(14:58):
and two times more likely for accidental poisoning, which means,
you know, usually drugs are left out, or you know,
prescription drugs or other drugs are left out.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And I'm looking at your research in the five to
nine and I see obviously medical as the biggest one
at sixty let's see what is that sixty five percent,
and then traffic traffic fatalities at thirteen percent, drowning at
six percent, fire at five percent, no excuse me, firearm
(15:31):
at five percent and fire at four percent, and then
it continues down strangulation, poison, inhalation, sharp objects, natural environment,
struck and strikes and falls. But we see that it's
a hugely disproportionate amount of attention is being paid to
(15:55):
the firearm deaths and not to the stuff that is
under your kitchen sink or in your garage that is actual. Now, hey,
we do we address the firearm deaths. We absolutely do,
and we recommend always, you know, appropriate and safe storage,
but prioritize it where it happens. Even if there were
(16:17):
to be zero firearm deaths, we've still got a huge number,
much much more on the order of sometimes ten to
fifteen times more on poisonings, burns, falls, chokings, drowndings, that
type of thing. And those are the things that i'd
like to you know, if you're gonna have PSAs for anything,
let's do that. How about looking at let's see how
(16:39):
much time we've got. Yeah, how about looking at ten
to twelve. Now, let's look at the ten to twelve
because we do see firearm deaths go up in that
in that age range. Or is it, no excuse me,
is it ten to twelve or no, fifteen, fifteen to
seventeen doesn't go.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Up until teenagers, and so shot twelve and under. The
next leading cause after medical is accidents. Under one is suffocation,
won to forest drowning, five to nine, traffic accidents, ten
to twelve traffic accidents. It's not so you get to teens.
Thirteen to fourteen is firearms, and thirteen to fourteen firearms
is suicide. And then fifteen to seventeen you get to
(17:17):
firearms and that's a homicide.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, so we have we have an uptick in suicide,
and we have an uptick in homicide, typically with gang members,
and that in that that fifteen to seventeen age group,
and I think that needs to be noticed because again
it's not accidents. It's it's intentional homicide. And you don't
fix you don't fix intentional homicide the same way you
(17:40):
do fix accidents or suicide. But they don't do They
don't say that, do they They just say firearms are
a leading cause of death for children and young adults. Bam.
They aren't talking about zero to one, one to four,
five to nine.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, you know, all child imagine And I think I
think what the reality is is that we have to
just kind of look at the motives of these organizations.
Are they really trying to reduce the amount of child
deaths or are they just looking at going because so
many other areas where child does, especially for young children
twelve and under, are the drowning, the traffic accidents. They're
(18:19):
not getting any focus, and they're taking funding and focus
away from it from all the politicians to focus all
their time in legislation on these issues because that's what
they that's their agenda. Agreed with you on reducing child
death in the United States.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Maeric, can you hold over for this next segment. I've
just got to do some I've got to do some
of our sponsors right now, and then we'll come right back.
So hold on and uh, we will be right back.
But first a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
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Speaker 1 (19:26):
On assignment at the gun show in Sandy So and
we've been talking with Mirra O'Connell. Mirror O'Connell in addition
to being the CEO and president of Ergo Grips. Check
out ergogrips dot net. You will find something there, probably
a few things to put in the cart to buy
(19:47):
if you own a gun, which if you're listening to
gun Radio Utel you probably do. But in addition to that,
she's a huge advocate for Women for Gun Rights. Can
you tell talk about a little bit about Women for Gun.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Rights advocate for education and not legislation, for gun safety
and gun education, and we also advocate to be able
to as women protect ourselves with our Second Amendment right.
And so it's huge, huge for all of us. You know,
so many of the women that are part of the organization,
(20:18):
including myself, have been a victim of something related to
some kind of violence with guns, and so we're very
passionate that, you know, we have a right to be
able to protect ourselves. And so as part of that advocacy,
I've been putting these things together for years because you know,
when I'm meeting, we meet with legislators. We talk to
them about the issues that are important to us. We
(20:38):
talk to them about supporting us and not supporting legislation
that could prohibit our Second Moendment rights, and they always
throw these statistics in my face. So that's where I
got up, started putting these together and started trying to
be able to have you know, intelligent conversations with them
and counter their arguments with the facts. So we used
(21:02):
do we do that on local levels, and we also
go to fly ins in DC and meet with all
of the national legislatures, and this last time we went
to the White House, So.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It's go ahead.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's a great organization Diana Mueller founded and she does
her heart and soul and she does a great job.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I met Diana Mueller at the Gundhies two years ago
at Shot Show. Actually in fact, she no, she was
my ticket into the Gundhies, the Gun Awards they're at
Shot Show. So yeah, she's with women. And if you
want to find out more about Women for Gun Rights,
just go to Women for Gun Rights dot org, Women
Forgun Rights dot org and we're happy to have a
(21:44):
really good, strong showing for Women for Gun Rights here
in Utah. Rail Cunningham is the regional director of that
along with Cindy and the others. Now, let's talk about Oh,
I wanted to point out you have been on every
aspect of a gun. You're a manufacturer for fire well
for for firearm accessories. You were a victim. Well maybe
(22:08):
you don't like to be referred to as victim though,
but you have been on one end of the gun.
And you were also law enforcement officer.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yes, yes, I'm a survivor and I was a law
enforcement officer for fifteen years and so I've seen a
lot of aspects of this. You know, I did child
abuse cases as a detective, sexual assault cases as detective.
So I you know, I'm very passionate about these these
issues and in getting our children and women the protection
that they deserve and the support and resources and education
(22:37):
for the issues that you know that they're facing.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So I want to talk about the devious way that
these anti gun groups masquerade the facts as as truth,
and especially with these accidental shootings, the percentages that they
played fast and loose with, can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yes, So they switched back and forth. So one of
the ways they got to the one to seventeen they
pulled all the numbers from age one to seventeen for everything,
then they averaged them out, and since teens had higher
percentages for gun related deaths, that they felt like they
could make that statement that guns were the number and
(23:20):
cause of all ages, when it really is only teens
that you start to get into the higher percentages. And
so they did that on one hand, but then when
they started talking about accidental shootings, so accidental shootings are
less than one percent of all minor age deaths, and
they account for about four point five percent of all
(23:41):
firearms deaths for minors. That this is one to seventeen
group because they excluded infants. But yet on page eight
of the study of this study that was put out
by the Center for Gun Control, they say unintentional injuries
account for a large portion of gun deaths. So I'm
not sure where they're getting. One to four point five
(24:02):
percent is a large portion, So they misstate that, and
then they inflate the percentages by taking the total number
of accidental desks were just the age group, like age
one to four, they take that number and that was
thirty five percent of the accidental disk for just that
age group. So then they say thirteen and thirty five
percent for ages one to four and five to nine, respectively.
(24:24):
So it makes someone feel like they read it and
they go, thirty five percent of all deaths are accidental,
but it's only of accidental firearms deaths of that age group,
So firearms deaths, you know, So they they keep switching
it back and forth. It's called statistical distortion.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, And I have been in committee hearings where they
have literally done and misled the legislators along that line.
And when it's interesting if and I've got to think
they know what they're doing, many of them. Now, I
realize some of these folks are just regurgitating what is
given to them in an email or whatever. But I
gotta under I gotta think that they know that they're
(25:04):
misleading these reps and what happens here in Utah, and
I'm assuming other states too, Like Bill. Bill and I
are both registered lobbyists, and when we, you know, sign
on the dotted line to become a registered lobbyist, if
we we are told that if we lie or misrepresent
the truth to a legislator. It's a criminal act. That
(25:25):
literally is a criminal act for us to lie or
to deceive a legislator. And these these groups that come in,
they're they're grassroots group. They don't have to register as lobbyists.
They can just you know, just show up and uh
there is no shall we say, limits to what they
can say anyway. So uh, check more of this out.
(25:49):
You can go to ergo grips dot net, slash twenty
twenty three CDC dash data and check that out. Also
check out Women Forgun Rights dot com org. Mirah, thank
you so much, and I look forward to having you
on again, and because I think you're going to probably
be doing some more research.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Absolutely, gentlemen, I appreciate your time, and I hope this
has helped some people understand where we need to focus
some of our resources and education towards some of these
other juvenile issues that we've we've long since put to
the side pat with this hyper focus on firearms.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So thank you, gentlemen, agreat, thank you, Mara, all right,
he appreciate it. Oh and now word from our sponsor
and then we'll be right.
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Speaker 1 (27:14):
We're very pleased to have doctor John Locke with the
Crime Prevention Research Center. Go to crimeresearch dot org. We're
going to be talking about some of his research that
he's done and an amicas breaker Friend of the court
type brief. But you can find all of this and
so much more, all of his research and different articles
(27:35):
he's done and interviews at crimeresearch dot org. While you're there,
hit the donate button because unlike some of these other groups,
they don't get big Bloomberg money. You don't get Bloomberg money,
do you, John? Not that I know of not that,
and you would know of it. Hey, I wanted you
(27:55):
on today because we've got a big case before the
United States Supreme Court, and it was last heard in
the Ninth Circuit, which covers Hawaii and California and some others.
But they gave Ninth Circuit didn't give us a friendly
outcome in this one. And it has to do with
(28:16):
carrying firearms, and correct me if I'm wrong. It's a
little bit bigger breath than this, But carrying firearms in
private places, We're not talking government places, but private property,
and how much restrictions a state can put on this
tell us about crime prevention. Research's friend of the Court brief. Right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
We are working with the California Highway Patrolman's Association and
the California Police Officers Research Association, So it's kind of
nice to be able to get all those police officer
groups kind of behind us on it. But look, when
Brulin was decision came down in twenty twenty two, you'd
(29:03):
had seven states that made it extremely difficult for people
to go and get concealed care permits, the so called
may issue rules. California, Hawaii, New York, Maryland, New Jersey,
Massachusetts were the states that basically did that, and only
(29:24):
about one percent of the adult population in those states
got a permit. So after this from court struck down
this kind of good justification that you had to go
and give some public official before they would let you
have a permit, these states, many of them decided, well,
(29:44):
we're going to make it so you can't carry very much.
Even if we have to give you a permit. We're
going to make it so you really aren't able to carry.
And one of the things that New York and Hawaii
and this Maxim cal Fifornia adopted was extreme restrictions on
where you could carry. In Hawaii, you essentially have to
(30:07):
go and get the individual permission from any private property
to be able to go and carry there.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And you have to get it from the owner.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And the notion that somebody is going to even know
who the owner is on most of the private property
or to get explicit permission from them, it seems very doubtful.
And so they just wanted to make it so that, well,
if you're going to force us to give our permits,
we'll just make it so you can't use it really
any place. If you can't go into restaurants or into
(30:43):
movie theaters or malls or wherever, it pretty much makes
it useless for you to go and get a permit.
So what we tried to do in this was to
go through a couple of things. One is just to
say how law abiding our permit holders? You know, do
they pose a risk that the gun control advocates say
(31:04):
is the reason why we need to have this type
of broad prohibition on people caring? And the answer is no,
permit holders are extremely law abiding. They lose their permit
for any reason at about two tenths of one percent
of permit holders. And if you compare it to let's
(31:25):
say police officers, permit holders are convicted of firearm related
violations at about one twelve the rate that police officers
are and police themselves are only convicted of firearms related
crimes at about one twentieth the rate of the general population.
So you know, it's very you know.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
They're extremely law abiding.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It's hard to think of almost any other group and
the population that's as law abiding. And then the other
thing is just what's the benefits from them being able
to carry? And there we have some new research that
we've done that look at all the active shooting attacks
in the United States from twenty fourteen through twenty twenty
four using the FBI's definition of active shooting, which is
(32:11):
a gun fired in public, not part of some other
type of crime like a robbery or a gang fight
over drug turf, anything for one person being shot at
and missed, all the way up to a mass public shooting.
And what we found was that civilians actually stop these
attacks at a much higher rate than police do.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
And there's simple reasons.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
For that, and that is, while it's important that police
be in uniform, people have to understand what an incredibly
difficult job they have and how they're at a tactical disadvantage.
If you have somebody that's in uniform and somebody's going
to go and shoot up an area seeing the officer
in uniform, they can either wait for the officer to leave,
(32:56):
or they can go on to another target. Both of
those actions make it less likely that the police officer
will be there to stop the attack. And if they
do insist on going and doing the attack there, who
do you think they shoot first? They're going to shoot
the police officers. In fact, it's amazing, but police officers
(33:16):
were eleven times more likely to get killed than concealed
care permit holders in stopping these attacks. So you know,
even though they're stopping a smaller number of these attacks.
So you know, we went through all the different things there.
(33:38):
Civilians don't just go and shoot bystanders, they don't get
in the way of police. They are extremely important in
stopping these types of crimes, and so you know, there's
really no costs and there's larger benefits that you know,
there's a reason why these mass murderers go and and
(34:00):
explicitly target gun free zones when they go and do
these attacks, because they want to go and kill as
many people or harm.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
As many people as possible.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
And if they go to a place where their victims
are unarmed, they're going to be more successful and killing
more people.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I have in reading your research and I see
the right to carry RTC right to carry laws and
you made some great have some great data on it
doesn't increase crime. It actually reduces crime. Yet there's still
I still hear the bedweathering handringers talking, oh right to
(34:38):
carry laws increase crime. Right. Well, we go.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Through and talk about some of the research in this area,
and our piece. Most of the peer reviewed academic articles
claims that there's a drop. There are some recent papers
that look at later periods of time they claim to
find an increase, and there are real problems with it.
So what you're doing when you're looking at this research,
(35:05):
you're seeing how states that adopt right to carry laws
how their crime rates are changing relative to ones in
an earlier period before.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You're looking at changes in the laws.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
And the problem is is that those recent studies that
just look at current periods are comparing states they are
adopting right to carry laws now compared to ones that
already had right to carry laws, And the problem is
is that the most recent states tend to be more restrictive,
(35:40):
more difficult to go and give up permits, and so
you're actually seeing a smaller increase in permits in the
news states they're doing relatively old, and so they basically
got it reversed in terms of what they think they're
measuring there, because you're implicitly assuming that you're going to
get a bigger permit change there.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, exactly, carrying a gun in Utah versus carrying a
gun legally in California, there's a lot fewer places you
can carry. Doctor a lot appreciate you so much for
coming on and explaining that the case that's before the
United States Supreme Court and we'll be following that very carefully.
So thank you very much, and again go to crimeresearch
(36:24):
dot org, hit the donate button and take a look
at all the take a look at all the data,
all the research that's been done there. Thanks for listening
to Gun Radio Utah. We'll be back with you next week.
Thank you. Denny
I gotta tell you today is going to be a
really neat show. We are strung out across across this
nation right now. I am at Ghost Eye Manor in
beautiful Uinta County, northern u Into County. Denny is there
in the station at our iHeart main station in h
in In Well technically West Valley. And Bill you are
(00:23):
in Where are you at? Bill?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm in I'm in Sandy at the Rocky Mountain Gun
Show here. So we're broadcasting live from from the gun
show today.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Here.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We've got a booth. We're here with Sure Talk Radio.
They're they're showing up their radios and right next to
medic Gaps so you can't miss us.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I just I just got word that Denny Casey Jane
says we were live on commercials during the commercials, I
don't yeah. I mean, hey, this is at least that's
the and that's that's iHeart. So that's uh, you know yeah.
So so that's that. And then we also have uh
(01:08):
where we're going to have Mirra O'Connell, who is the
CEO of Ergo Grips Dot orgo grips Dot, and that
she is also a uh with Women Against Gun control
gun rights, Women for Gun Rights, Yes, Women for Gun Right,
just they changed the name a while ago, and so uh.
(01:29):
And we're gonna have Mira on with some very interesting
research that she has done. And Bill, you and I
have talked about this previously on that constant drone from
the anti bedwetters. No, that the actual pro bedwetters about
childhood deaths versus everything else with firearms. So we're gonna
(01:53):
have some interesting research. And then fourth segment we're gonna
have talking about research. We're gonna have doctor John Lott
on and he's going to talk about amekas brief that
he has, like a friend of the court brief to
the I think it's to the Hawaii Court. I don't.
I don't think it's Ninth Circuit because it's talking about
(02:14):
trying to get reversed a Ninth Circuit ruling on where
you can carry where you can carry firearms. And it
has to do with the vampire clause. Bill, do you
remember what the vampire clause is? Do you know before
before a vampire you know, if a vampire comes to
your door, Bill, can he just walk in? No, he
(02:35):
has to be actually affirmatively invited in And that is
literally the vampire clause, which a few states, including Hawaii,
have been trying to do. So it's called a reversal
of Well anyway, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll talk to John
Lott about that. So yeah, oh hey. On a sad note,
(02:58):
Martin Tuisson, and some of you may know that name,
but he is the CEO, was the CEO of Arms
Corps and Rock Island Armory out of and he was
out of the Philippines, but he would come back here
come to Utah quite often. In fact, he was just
in Utah last week. He has passed away unexpectedly. He
(03:19):
was fifty one years old and leaves his wife and family,
and so our thoughts go out to his family and
to all the Arms Cores and Rock Island Armory team
of families there. So I reached out to lynd Gomez
and told her we're sorry to hear about that, but
that just happened, I think either this morning or last night.
(03:40):
So Martin Tuisson anyway, all right, So now we've got
a few minutes. What I wanted to when I wanted
to go over is Bill. Where are you now?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I'm at the Mountain America Credit Union expos Center here
in Sandy, the Rocky Mountain Gun Show.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You're at the Rocky Mountain Gun Show.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So Sure Talk Radio booth, the Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Talk Radio booth. Okay, Oh, in fact, we have a
new we have a new ad for them. We have
a new ad for them coming right up. You know
what I think I'm gonna do is since we have
a few minutes right in this in this first segment,
still Marra, I'm going to have you come on right now,
and I want to talk about some of this research.
So Rayel Cunningham with Women for Gun Rights, we actually
(04:31):
were at a Project Child's Safe program through the National
Shooting Sports Foundation earlier this week, and she said, Hey,
I've got somebody fantastic that you need to talk to
and mirror. You are that person you've done some research on. Well,
tell us about this research that you just had you
(04:52):
just did.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, Product child Safe is phenomenal project. So thank you
for having me on, gentlemen. I've been working these last
few years on doing research through my advocacy work so
that I have information to present to politicians and people
that I come across during advocacy work. But I've been
hearing a lot of information that didn't wasn't adding up
(05:15):
to what I was seeing on the CDC website, and
so I decided to do a full blown research project
this year. And it's based on the twenty two and
twenty three findings. And you've probably all heard a politician
or somewhere on social media that they say that guns
are the number one death or cause of death of
children in the United States and teens. So that is
(05:38):
just not factually based. So I started doing my researchers
try to start breaking it down to see where are
these people getting in this information, why are they saying
these things? So on average, every year, about thirty five
thousand juveniles die in the United States, Over half of
those are infants under the age of one. The majority
(05:59):
of these deaths are considered non injury due to medical
causes diseases, medical conditions, illnesses, and about seventy one percent
both twenty two and twenty three were from medical related causes.
So what these groups are doing is they're disregarding medical deaths.
It doesn't you know, they don't want to look at
(06:19):
that because that's truly what most children are passing.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Away they're so are you saying they're not even putting
them into the mix.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well. See so International Categorization of Diseases ICD is how
they code CDC codes deaths in the United States. And
of those or one hundred and fifty five thousand different codes,
over half of those codes are medical related codes and
about fourteen really about eleven relevant eleven or twelve relevant
(06:47):
are related to firearms. So what they're doing is they'll
they disregard the whole group. They just they try to
just bring out specific medical issues like cancer or SIDS
or something like that. So they're breaking all the medical
issues into different category. So that brings it down. But
if you add all the medical related illnesses, deaths from illnesses, conditions,
(07:11):
then then you get that's the largest number of deaths.
And so they add all the firearms related categories, whether
it's intentional, assault, suicide, undetermined, they add all those together,
but they don't do that with medical So that's one
of the ways they they're trying to get to these
numbers that they want to get to.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So basically, I mean what you're saying is they have
some numbers that they want to that they want to
show up, and they manipulate the data in such a
way intel, it meets what they want to say.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, it's called statistical distortion or manipulation. And so in
this case, one of the other things they did is
they disregarded deaths under age one. So that's like an
undercoverage or a selection bias, where they're just select certain
groups that they know will produce more of the numbers
that they're looking at, instead of producing all of juvenile
(08:07):
deaths because you know, ninety percent of underage one deaths
are all medical related. Yeah, so it's a way.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And I have I have noticed that in there when
they say that and they point, they play fast and
loose with their words. It's children and young adults they'll
throw in there, because sometimes they go to nineteen to
twenty one to twenty four. I've seen some research that
actually are we'll still calling them kids at twenty four
years old. So I'm looking at your data here and
(08:38):
uh and for those of you that would like to
look at this data, it's very nice. You can print
it out, it's it's very You've done a great job
in making it easy to view. Go to ergogrips dot
net and then it's dash twenty or no slash twenty
twenty three Dash CDC Dash data. But if you get
(09:01):
in there ergogrips dot net slash twenty twenty three, it'll
find it. I've found that on the Google searchers and
that and find out. But anyway, so I'm looking and
one to four ages one through four we have that.
Oh and Bill is telling me. So when we come
back on Gun Radio, Utah, we're going to explain examine
(09:23):
one to four and five to nine and even older.
So stay right there, we'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That's the Mountain America Credit Union Expo Center here in Sandy,
And if you got some time you want to head
on over after the show, we'll be here till five
o'clock and the show will run from nine to three tomorrow. Okay,
so before we kind of laugh, Clark, we've got Mara
O'Connell on the line with Ergo Grips and we're talking
(09:52):
about some of the statistics and you're ready to go
into a thought process before I kind of cut you off.
And I didn't mean to cut you off, but I
knew we're kind of on some hard stops there.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So well, yeah, and thank you, Bill. I sometimes I
just get a little carried away. So Mera. You're an
advocate for women for gun rights as well as just
being the CEO also of Ergo Grips. By the way,
I stopped by every shot show and check out and
so if you if you have a grip that you
need for a pistol, a rifle, a shotgun, all sorts
(10:26):
of stuff, you've got to check out Ergo Grips dot net. So,
and this was not meant to be a commercial, but
it is fantastic. I have roomfuls of these Ergo grips
on my gun. So it was just it was just
fortuitous that you happen to be the advocate for this.
So was there anything surprising that you found in your
data while you were doing this research?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, you know, we hear so much about gun storage laws.
In fact, twenty six states have gun storage laws. And
I was really surprised if finds the amount there was
forty five and twenty twenty two of us from accidental
firearm discharges deaths. And I was really surprised to find
out in twenty point two fourteen kids were fourteen times
more likely to die from drowning. Over six hundred children
(11:13):
died from drowning the same year. So we seem to
be like hyper focused on one area when we're not
really giving parents the opportunity to be educated and we're
not putting funding towards all these other areas that have
just you know, have all these serious dangers that parents
need to be educated on.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, And you bring up a very good point, because
you know, as parents, we've got so many different things
that we need to watch out for our kids for,
and sometimes we're unaware of some of the dangers within
our own home. And yes, firearms, we have been huge
advocates for, yes, always store your firearms in such a
way that you can deny access to anyone who shouldn't
(11:56):
have access to them. Boom, that will take care of
your guns. But what about everything else? And we're led
to believe by some of these hand ringing, bedwetting groups
that firearms are the biggest and almost the only danger
to our kids, when in reality it's it's much much,
(12:16):
much smaller. And I think they're doing well, they're definitely
doing a disservice. Had they done nothing, had they said
nothing about this, it would have been it would have
been better than manipulating the data in such a way
that it makes one drownings look less prevalent, right.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And on the same course, you only six states have
pool safety laws, and I was surprised to find out
that most drownings, accidental drownings, happen in pools. And according
to the National Prevention of Now General Drowning Provincial Alliance
of those drownings parent present.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, you know some interesting research. While I was tailing
off of your research, I looked at doctor John Lotte's
research and found a real interesting thing. When we talk
about the accident, the actual accidental gun deaths does not
mean that they were that the kid was holding the
gun themselves, but that it was determined in the reports
(13:26):
that it was an accident that the gun discharged. But
what interesting is that for children under eighteen, it averaged
ninety two accidental gun deaths a year. For those under
ten earlier, the research shows that about two thirds of
those that were accidentally shot to death were shot by
(13:48):
adult males, usually in their twenties, who have violent criminal
records and our drug addicts or alcoholics. And we're obviously
let to believe that, oh, no, these were little kids
that got these guns and accidentally shot themselves. No, these
were criminals with guns where you know, the safe storage
(14:10):
laws would have zero effect on these criminals and their
gun handling.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Absolutely. And you know, like I said, I there's just
so much of education it's needed in so many of
these other areas. And the sad part about it is
very little funding is put towards gun safety. You know,
two point four million from Project Child Safe, only about
five thousand from Eddie Eagle every year. But you know,
(14:38):
millions and millions towards gun control. And you know you
have like almost four million towards water safety, thirty eight
million towards fire prevention safety. One of the other hazards fires,
it's juveniles of all ages are five times more likely
to die in a fire than accidental discharge of a firearm,
(14:58):
and two times more likely for accidental poisoning, which means,
you know, usually drugs are left out, or you know,
prescription drugs or other drugs are left out.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And I'm looking at your research in the five to
nine and I see obviously medical as the biggest one
at sixty let's see what is that sixty five percent,
and then traffic traffic fatalities at thirteen percent, drowning at
six percent, fire at five percent, no excuse me, firearm
(15:31):
at five percent and fire at four percent, and then
it continues down strangulation, poison, inhalation, sharp objects, natural environment,
struck and strikes and falls. But we see that it's
a hugely disproportionate amount of attention is being paid to
(15:55):
the firearm deaths and not to the stuff that is
under your kitchen sink or in your garage that is actual. Now, hey,
we do we address the firearm deaths. We absolutely do,
and we recommend always, you know, appropriate and safe storage,
but prioritize it where it happens. Even if there were
(16:17):
to be zero firearm deaths, we've still got a huge number,
much much more on the order of sometimes ten to
fifteen times more on poisonings, burns, falls, chokings, drowndings, that
type of thing. And those are the things that i'd
like to you know, if you're gonna have PSAs for anything,
let's do that. How about looking at let's see how
(16:39):
much time we've got. Yeah, how about looking at ten
to twelve. Now, let's look at the ten to twelve
because we do see firearm deaths go up in that
in that age range. Or is it, no excuse me,
is it ten to twelve or no, fifteen, fifteen to
seventeen doesn't go.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Up until teenagers, and so shot twelve and under. The
next leading cause after medical is accidents. Under one is suffocation,
won to forest drowning, five to nine, traffic accidents, ten
to twelve traffic accidents. It's not so you get to teens.
Thirteen to fourteen is firearms, and thirteen to fourteen firearms
is suicide. And then fifteen to seventeen you get to
(17:17):
firearms and that's a homicide.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, so we have we have an uptick in suicide,
and we have an uptick in homicide, typically with gang members,
and that in that that fifteen to seventeen age group,
and I think that needs to be noticed because again
it's not accidents. It's it's intentional homicide. And you don't
fix you don't fix intentional homicide the same way you
(17:40):
do fix accidents or suicide. But they don't do They
don't say that, do they They just say firearms are
a leading cause of death for children and young adults. Bam.
They aren't talking about zero to one, one to four,
five to nine.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, you know, all child imagine And I think I
think what the reality is is that we have to
just kind of look at the motives of these organizations.
Are they really trying to reduce the amount of child
deaths or are they just looking at going because so
many other areas where child does, especially for young children
twelve and under, are the drowning, the traffic accidents. They're
(18:19):
not getting any focus, and they're taking funding and focus
away from it from all the politicians to focus all
their time in legislation on these issues because that's what
they that's their agenda. Agreed with you on reducing child
death in the United States.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Maeric, can you hold over for this next segment. I've
just got to do some I've got to do some
of our sponsors right now, and then we'll come right back.
So hold on and uh, we will be right back.
But first a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
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Speaker 1 (19:26):
On assignment at the gun show in Sandy So and
we've been talking with Mirra O'Connell. Mirror O'Connell in addition
to being the CEO and president of Ergo Grips. Check
out ergogrips dot net. You will find something there, probably
a few things to put in the cart to buy
(19:47):
if you own a gun, which if you're listening to
gun Radio Utel you probably do. But in addition to that,
she's a huge advocate for Women for Gun Rights. Can
you tell talk about a little bit about Women for Gun.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Rights advocate for education and not legislation, for gun safety
and gun education, and we also advocate to be able
to as women protect ourselves with our Second Amendment right.
And so it's huge, huge for all of us. You know,
so many of the women that are part of the organization,
(20:18):
including myself, have been a victim of something related to
some kind of violence with guns, and so we're very
passionate that, you know, we have a right to be
able to protect ourselves. And so as part of that advocacy,
I've been putting these things together for years because you know,
when I'm meeting, we meet with legislators. We talk to
them about the issues that are important to us. We
(20:38):
talk to them about supporting us and not supporting legislation
that could prohibit our Second Moendment rights, and they always
throw these statistics in my face. So that's where I
got up, started putting these together and started trying to
be able to have you know, intelligent conversations with them
and counter their arguments with the facts. So we used
(21:02):
do we do that on local levels, and we also
go to fly ins in DC and meet with all
of the national legislatures, and this last time we went
to the White House, So.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It's go ahead.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's a great organization Diana Mueller founded and she does
her heart and soul and she does a great job.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I met Diana Mueller at the Gundhies two years ago
at Shot Show. Actually in fact, she no, she was
my ticket into the Gundhies, the Gun Awards they're at
Shot Show. So yeah, she's with women. And if you
want to find out more about Women for Gun Rights,
just go to Women for Gun Rights dot org, Women
Forgun Rights dot org and we're happy to have a
(21:44):
really good, strong showing for Women for Gun Rights here
in Utah. Rail Cunningham is the regional director of that
along with Cindy and the others. Now, let's talk about Oh,
I wanted to point out you have been on every
aspect of a gun. You're a manufacturer for fire well
for for firearm accessories. You were a victim. Well maybe
(22:08):
you don't like to be referred to as victim though,
but you have been on one end of the gun.
And you were also law enforcement officer.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yes, yes, I'm a survivor and I was a law
enforcement officer for fifteen years and so I've seen a
lot of aspects of this. You know, I did child
abuse cases as a detective, sexual assault cases as detective.
So I you know, I'm very passionate about these these
issues and in getting our children and women the protection
that they deserve and the support and resources and education
(22:37):
for the issues that you know that they're facing.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So I want to talk about the devious way that
these anti gun groups masquerade the facts as as truth,
and especially with these accidental shootings, the percentages that they
played fast and loose with, can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yes, So they switched back and forth. So one of
the ways they got to the one to seventeen they
pulled all the numbers from age one to seventeen for everything,
then they averaged them out, and since teens had higher
percentages for gun related deaths, that they felt like they
could make that statement that guns were the number and
(23:20):
cause of all ages, when it really is only teens
that you start to get into the higher percentages. And
so they did that on one hand, but then when
they started talking about accidental shootings, so accidental shootings are
less than one percent of all minor age deaths, and
they account for about four point five percent of all
(23:41):
firearms deaths for minors. That this is one to seventeen
group because they excluded infants. But yet on page eight
of the study of this study that was put out
by the Center for Gun Control, they say unintentional injuries
account for a large portion of gun deaths. So I'm
not sure where they're getting. One to four point five
(24:02):
percent is a large portion, So they misstate that, and
then they inflate the percentages by taking the total number
of accidental desks were just the age group, like age
one to four, they take that number and that was
thirty five percent of the accidental disk for just that
age group. So then they say thirteen and thirty five
percent for ages one to four and five to nine, respectively.
(24:24):
So it makes someone feel like they read it and
they go, thirty five percent of all deaths are accidental,
but it's only of accidental firearms deaths of that age group,
So firearms deaths, you know, So they they keep switching
it back and forth. It's called statistical distortion.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, And I have been in committee hearings where they
have literally done and misled the legislators along that line.
And when it's interesting if and I've got to think
they know what they're doing, many of them. Now, I
realize some of these folks are just regurgitating what is
given to them in an email or whatever. But I
gotta under I gotta think that they know that they're
(25:04):
misleading these reps and what happens here in Utah, and
I'm assuming other states too, Like Bill. Bill and I
are both registered lobbyists, and when we, you know, sign
on the dotted line to become a registered lobbyist, if
we we are told that if we lie or misrepresent
the truth to a legislator. It's a criminal act. That
(25:25):
literally is a criminal act for us to lie or
to deceive a legislator. And these these groups that come in,
they're they're grassroots group. They don't have to register as lobbyists.
They can just you know, just show up and uh
there is no shall we say, limits to what they
can say anyway. So uh, check more of this out.
(25:49):
You can go to ergo grips dot net, slash twenty
twenty three CDC dash data and check that out. Also
check out Women Forgun Rights dot com org. Mirah, thank
you so much, and I look forward to having you
on again, and because I think you're going to probably
be doing some more research.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Absolutely, gentlemen, I appreciate your time, and I hope this
has helped some people understand where we need to focus
some of our resources and education towards some of these
other juvenile issues that we've we've long since put to
the side pat with this hyper focus on firearms.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So thank you, gentlemen, agreat, thank you, Mara, all right,
he appreciate it. Oh and now word from our sponsor
and then we'll be right.
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my Brass dot com Ammo, Fast, reliable, locked in.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
We're very pleased to have doctor John Locke with the
Crime Prevention Research Center. Go to crimeresearch dot org. We're
going to be talking about some of his research that
he's done and an amicas breaker Friend of the court
type brief. But you can find all of this and
so much more, all of his research and different articles
(27:35):
he's done and interviews at crimeresearch dot org. While you're there,
hit the donate button because unlike some of these other groups,
they don't get big Bloomberg money. You don't get Bloomberg money,
do you, John? Not that I know of not that,
and you would know of it. Hey, I wanted you
(27:55):
on today because we've got a big case before the
United States Supreme Court, and it was last heard in
the Ninth Circuit, which covers Hawaii and California and some others.
But they gave Ninth Circuit didn't give us a friendly
outcome in this one. And it has to do with
(28:16):
carrying firearms, and correct me if I'm wrong. It's a
little bit bigger breath than this, But carrying firearms in
private places, We're not talking government places, but private property,
and how much restrictions a state can put on this
tell us about crime prevention. Research's friend of the Court brief. Right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
We are working with the California Highway Patrolman's Association and
the California Police Officers Research Association, So it's kind of
nice to be able to get all those police officer
groups kind of behind us on it. But look, when
Brulin was decision came down in twenty twenty two, you'd
(29:03):
had seven states that made it extremely difficult for people
to go and get concealed care permits, the so called
may issue rules. California, Hawaii, New York, Maryland, New Jersey,
Massachusetts were the states that basically did that, and only
(29:24):
about one percent of the adult population in those states
got a permit. So after this from court struck down
this kind of good justification that you had to go
and give some public official before they would let you
have a permit, these states, many of them decided, well,
(29:44):
we're going to make it so you can't carry very much.
Even if we have to give you a permit. We're
going to make it so you really aren't able to carry.
And one of the things that New York and Hawaii
and this Maxim cal Fifornia adopted was extreme restrictions on
where you could carry. In Hawaii, you essentially have to
(30:07):
go and get the individual permission from any private property
to be able to go and carry there.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And you have to get it from the owner.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And the notion that somebody is going to even know
who the owner is on most of the private property
or to get explicit permission from them, it seems very doubtful.
And so they just wanted to make it so that, well,
if you're going to force us to give our permits,
we'll just make it so you can't use it really
any place. If you can't go into restaurants or into
(30:43):
movie theaters or malls or wherever, it pretty much makes
it useless for you to go and get a permit.
So what we tried to do in this was to
go through a couple of things. One is just to
say how law abiding our permit holders? You know, do
they pose a risk that the gun control advocates say
(31:04):
is the reason why we need to have this type
of broad prohibition on people caring? And the answer is no,
permit holders are extremely law abiding. They lose their permit
for any reason at about two tenths of one percent
of permit holders. And if you compare it to let's
(31:25):
say police officers, permit holders are convicted of firearm related
violations at about one twelve the rate that police officers
are and police themselves are only convicted of firearms related
crimes at about one twentieth the rate of the general population.
So you know, it's very you know.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
They're extremely law abiding.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It's hard to think of almost any other group and
the population that's as law abiding. And then the other
thing is just what's the benefits from them being able
to carry? And there we have some new research that
we've done that look at all the active shooting attacks
in the United States from twenty fourteen through twenty twenty
four using the FBI's definition of active shooting, which is
(32:11):
a gun fired in public, not part of some other
type of crime like a robbery or a gang fight
over drug turf, anything for one person being shot at
and missed, all the way up to a mass public shooting.
And what we found was that civilians actually stop these
attacks at a much higher rate than police do.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
And there's simple reasons.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
For that, and that is, while it's important that police
be in uniform, people have to understand what an incredibly
difficult job they have and how they're at a tactical disadvantage.
If you have somebody that's in uniform and somebody's going
to go and shoot up an area seeing the officer
in uniform, they can either wait for the officer to leave,
(32:56):
or they can go on to another target. Both of
those actions make it less likely that the police officer
will be there to stop the attack. And if they
do insist on going and doing the attack there, who
do you think they shoot first? They're going to shoot
the police officers. In fact, it's amazing, but police officers
(33:16):
were eleven times more likely to get killed than concealed
care permit holders in stopping these attacks. So you know,
even though they're stopping a smaller number of these attacks.
So you know, we went through all the different things there.
(33:38):
Civilians don't just go and shoot bystanders, they don't get
in the way of police. They are extremely important in
stopping these types of crimes, and so you know, there's
really no costs and there's larger benefits that you know,
there's a reason why these mass murderers go and and
(34:00):
explicitly target gun free zones when they go and do
these attacks, because they want to go and kill as
many people or harm.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
As many people as possible.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
And if they go to a place where their victims
are unarmed, they're going to be more successful and killing
more people.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I have in reading your research and I see
the right to carry RTC right to carry laws and
you made some great have some great data on it
doesn't increase crime. It actually reduces crime. Yet there's still
I still hear the bedweathering handringers talking, oh right to
(34:38):
carry laws increase crime. Right. Well, we go.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Through and talk about some of the research in this area,
and our piece. Most of the peer reviewed academic articles
claims that there's a drop. There are some recent papers
that look at later periods of time they claim to
find an increase, and there are real problems with it.
So what you're doing when you're looking at this research,
(35:05):
you're seeing how states that adopt right to carry laws
how their crime rates are changing relative to ones in
an earlier period before.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You're looking at changes in the laws.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
And the problem is is that those recent studies that
just look at current periods are comparing states they are
adopting right to carry laws now compared to ones that
already had right to carry laws, And the problem is
is that the most recent states tend to be more restrictive,
(35:40):
more difficult to go and give up permits, and so
you're actually seeing a smaller increase in permits in the
news states they're doing relatively old, and so they basically
got it reversed in terms of what they think they're
measuring there, because you're implicitly assuming that you're going to
get a bigger permit change there.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, exactly, carrying a gun in Utah versus carrying a
gun legally in California, there's a lot fewer places you
can carry. Doctor a lot appreciate you so much for
coming on and explaining that the case that's before the
United States Supreme Court and we'll be following that very carefully.
So thank you very much, and again go to crimeresearch
(36:24):
dot org, hit the donate button and take a look
at all the take a look at all the data,
all the research that's been done there. Thanks for listening
to Gun Radio Utah. We'll be back with you next week.
Thank you. Denny
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