March 26, 2026 • 47 mins
When Elyse was 21, her father, Billy, disappeared without explanation. When Elyse finally learned of his whereabouts, she was shocked by the new life he was living.
Seven years after the release of this episode, we check back in with Elyse, and she tells us all about what's happened with her dad in the time since.
You can sign up for our free newsletter at patreon.com/heavyweight
This episode was produced by Jonathan Goldstein, B.A. Parker, Kalila Holt, and Stevie Lane, with editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Kaitlin Roberts, Alex Goldman, Caitlin Kenney, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, Shanghai Restoration Project, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Mixing on this update by Sarah Bruguiere.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hi, Jonathan, Hi, come on in. You should make
yourself at home in the studio because it is like
a sec you've been spending so much time in here.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, I actually sometimes just sleep in here. It's just
easier than having to go home.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I don't know if you should be telling me that
this might be a conversation out with hr Yeah, what
are we listening to today?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Speaking of the studio, Today we're going to revisit an
episode that started with us sitting around in the studio.
It's called a Lease.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, of course I love this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
It's a really good one that came to us, as
you'll hear, in an unconventional way.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, we were trying something new. We were trying to
do a call in show, but in our case that
basically failed, but it succeeded because we wouldn't have had
this story without it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And we have a check in with Alease at the
end about what's happened since. And truly some of the
wildest updates I would say of any of these update conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, I know, do you have a tendency to to
to skew towards clickbait, But in this case it's true
it's very eventful.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
What else is there to say to quote?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
To quote?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Jay Z?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What more can I say?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Hello?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, okay, I thought you left the studio. Yeah, let's lean.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Back, let the story unfold and let.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
This story take us away. Oh but before any of that,
a word from our sponsors. Hey, how is it that
a seal keeps balls on their nose?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Go?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Now, no, no, I have something serious.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
If I happen to groceres in the house and I've
got to paint the doors.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So you're painting the door to your house? Yes, it
pays the door red.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
It's gonna be very nice.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
But you know what a red door symbolizes, right, No,
le rouge, there is a bordello. You're kidding, right, That's
how sailors would know. They would have them down by
the viewport and they would be able to know where
they could kidding make whoopee for for money?
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Sorry, who's that?
Speaker 6 (02:40):
That's my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Could you ask him about the red door?
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Zach?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I need this.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
From Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight
Today's episode, ilise.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
So now what happens They're just gonna call We'll see.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh boy, get ready. For a while back, my producers
and I decided to try a phone in episode. Larry King,
Rush Limbaugh and other Goldstein esque personalities had found success
with them. So why, I wondered, from the depths of
my ignorance, couldn't die and so full of hubris and hope,
(03:51):
we open the phone lines and invite the whole world
to call in with a small moment from their past,
something to revisit and resolve, all during the course of
a five minute phone call. This is why I got
into this business, the know the feeling of live radio.
(04:12):
As I'm to learn the thing about a phone in
show is that you need people to phone in and
nobody is.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Cause everyone's day.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But just as I'm starting to wonder if Gimblet Media
has forgotten to pay its telephone bill again, Oh here
we go.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
We're answering.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
All right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Hello, this is Jonathan speaking.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Hi Jonathan, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It's going okay? Is this uh? What's your name?
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Elise?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
This is You're very surprised I got through. This is
so exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I guess you really lucked out. Elise is a longtime listener,
first time caller from Washington, d C. And As it
turns out, her call proves not only the first of
the day, but also the last. And this is not
just because we don't receive any other calls. It's because
I completely drawn in by the story at least tells
(05:11):
me about herself and her dad. What's his name, Billy? Billy?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah, so I guess I basically I am estranged from
my father.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
When Aalise was a kid, Billy was the fun parent,
the one who always had hours to play with her,
the guy who, in spite of being something of a
macho man, gave himself over to playing beauty salon, even
allowing Elise to paint his toenails. Before the estrangement, Billy
and Elise were really close, which is why not having
(05:47):
any relationship now hurts the way it does.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
She was my dad, Like our idea of a family
vacation was to like show up in a country with
no plan and like rent a car and just like
drive around. And it was amazing, Like that's what that's what.
Speaker 7 (06:00):
Life with dad would like. It was like every day
was an adventure.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Even the way Billy met Alisa's mom was like something
out of a movie. The first act of a film
noir Billy was an Englishman driving through Chattanooga on a
tourist visa when he got into a terrible car accident,
and the physical therapist assigned to him was Elisa's mom.
Billy was still in a wheelchair when he talked her
into sneaking him out of the hospital for their first date.
(06:32):
Pretty soon after they got married and had Elise, Billy
never went back to England. Instead, he stayed with his
family in Chattanooga and became a successful used car salesman.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I have a lot of things in my upbringing in
life with him to be very grateful for. In addition
to all the craziness.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
In reference to her dad, Elise brings up craziness a lot,
like the crazy way Billy ruined her credit by opening
a business in her name, or the crazy time he
drove home a brand new car only to have cops
come looking for it with their guns drawn, or the
crazy way he destroyed his twenty four year marriage with
a series of affairs. There's one Christmas where he bailed
(07:15):
on the family only to spend the holiday with another woman.
And for all of these things, no matter how jarring
or painful, Elise is found it in herself to forgive
her father, but there's one thing she hasn't been able
to forgive.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
About five years ago, he moved out of the country
without telling us.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Us is Elise and her mom. Elise's parents had been
married her whole life, but had recently separated around the
time of his disappearance. Her last good memory of her
dad is watching him wave from the crowd as she
crossed the stage at our college graduation. Days later, he disappeared,
and disappeared is the word for it. Elise says that
(08:01):
when she went over to his house, she found food
rotting in the refrigerator and all the furniture still there.
For a week, Aleist had no idea what had happened
to her father, and then she received an email. It
simply said he'd be gone for a little while and
(08:22):
that email was the best way to stay in touch.
There was no further explanation. The next time she heard
from him was on her birthday six months later, a
Christmas note. And that's more or less been the pattern
for the last five years.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
On holidays and my birthday and stuff like that. His
emails are very short, like three sentences or less, sort
of happy whatever holiday it is I hope you're well,
love Dad.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
At first, at least tried responding. She'd express some of
her pain and anger in hopes of provoking a more
substantial dialogue, but Billy would refuse to engage. So after
an email pressing her father for answers, a few months
would pass with no response, and then an email would
land and Elisa's inbox wishing her a happy whatever holiday
(09:13):
it is and hoping she's well. Love Dad, as though
nothing was ever expressed and nothing was ever asked of him. Eventually,
Alice stopped responding to his emails entirely.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
We don't have a mailing address for him. I don't
know if his phone number. Like the only connection I
have to him is a Comcast email address.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Do you do you know where he's living.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
He's in the Philippines, and that's all I know. My
mom has a pinpoint into like a region. But like
there was ever, like he never told me where he
was going or why he never he never explained why
he left.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And this is what Elise wants, an explanation for his departure,
an emotional, honest conversation where she can ask him why
and what happened, Because in the five years since she
last saw him, a lot has happened.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
He started a new family, he also has like a
wife and a kid. Uh huh, And then he actually
named his new daughter my name Elise.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Oh my god, I.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Just find it so insulting. It's just such a transparent replacement,
like I moved to a country and like made a
new youth.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So when people search for Elise on Facebook, the first
result that comes up is new Elise and the page
Billy made for her, which means old Elise is forced
to constantly explain that this is her dad's new daughter
from his new family, who also just so happens to.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Have her name, Like, he just wants me to like
love him and be happy with him again. But the
elephant in the room is that he's living mysteriously somewhere
(11:04):
for half a decade and we've never discussed it.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
At least feels like she and Billy are living in
two different realities. She in the one where her father
abandoned her, and he in the one where he did
nothing wrong. She wants her dad to validate what she's
seen and felt to understand. Otherwise, how can they move forward?
Are you wanting to have a relationship with him.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Pardon me, is because he's also he's like diabetic, and
like he's just kind of old and sick and might
die and I might never know. He's sixty five and
possibly working a very physically taxing job. She was working
on containerships when we first moved over, And I've been
passively choosing the root of not having a relationship. But
(11:50):
the fear and the guilt gets worse with time, and.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
What would what would pursuing a relationship look like?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
That's what I'm That's what I'm trying to figure out.
It's like, yeah, I mean, he's my dad and I
feel like he's trying to maintain a relationship with me,
and I just don't know how to work past it.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I know I can sometimes come across as something of
a meddler, but I only decide to get involved in
the business of upturning people's entire lives after hours, sometimes
even days, of careful consideration. But then, I've never hosted
a call in show before, and so adrenalized by the
single flashing light on my switchboard and the imperial perch
(12:43):
of my slightly elevated swivel chair, I dive in would
you want me to call him up? And I say this,
by the way, like with the idea that this could
be a terrible, terrible idea, I'm not championing this idea.
This could be a stupid idea.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
It's better than any of the ideas that I've had
for the past five years. So yeah, I think I
think it would be helpful.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
My idea is to serve as Elise's emotional advance scout,
to call up her dad and see if he might
be ready after all this time, to talk to Elise
and offer some answers. Given what Elise has told me
about her dad, I can't say I'm optimistic about that.
But then again, I can't say I'm optimistic about anything.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Good luck for the rest of your calls.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
No one's gonna call anyway. So no, this was a
good call in show. And so it comes to pass
that I email Billy. As I await his response, I
imagine various scenarios. Maybe Billy will treat me like a
(13:54):
student loan officer. Sorry, sir, you've got the wrong Billy,
he might say. Or perhaps he'll try to convince me
I have the story all wrong, that Elise and her
mom are the real Villains. After a week and a half,
I finally hear back from Billy, and his actual response
(14:16):
is more surprising than any I might have imagined. It's
just a simple note apologizing for the delay. Billy explains
it's the rainy season and the Philippines and it's been
messing with his Internet. But he says he really wants
to talk to me. To be honest with you, He writes,
you are the only hope I have of communicating with Elise. Hello,
(14:48):
oh hi, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
Hey Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
It's a terrible evening here again, thunder and lightning. As
I told you, rainy seasons.
Speaker 8 (14:59):
So but anyway, so Elise contacted you.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Although Elise's last mine memory of her dad was at
her graduation ceremony, Billy has a different final memory, and
as he describes it, it was one of the most
painful moments of his life. He was in the midst
of the separation from Elisa's mom.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I was walking out of the garage carrying a box
and you can see straight into the house from the driveway.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
And Elise was in the dining room.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
Well.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
When she saw me, she.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Darted back into the living room, and kind of hid
herself so I couldn't see her. But I know for
a fact that she saw me because we made eye contact.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I get that this had to have been painful for Billy,
but as Elisa's interlocutor, I tell him this isn't about
his pain. It's about his daughter's pain in her anger,
and if they're to speak, he should be prepared for that.
I can't imagine that something Billy wants to hear, and
I'm worried how he'll react.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
As far as her feeling anger on her mother's behalf,
that I can assure you is completely understandable.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Once again, Billy has managed to surprise me.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I basically putn't it bluntly shit all over that woman
on many occasions. He was one particular Sunday morning that
she was up cooking breakfast and the phone rings and
there's a woman on the phone. And the woman says, Hey,
this is Angela. Can I speak to Billy? And my
(17:02):
wife said, well.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Who are you?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
And she just openly older she said, well, I'm his girlfriend.
Can you imagine a wife getting a owe concos of
s like that on a Sunday morning in the middle
of breakfast, saying I'm your husband's girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (17:22):
If at least broke is that with you, I can
assure you that every single word that she says is accurate,
and if it's not a really ugly picture, she's left
something like because trust me.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It's a really ugly picture.
Speaker 8 (17:41):
But there's absolutely nothing that I won't be completely honest
and open about. The honest that I have absolutely no
problem discussing anything with you.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
After hearing everything ALIST had to say about Billy's unwillingness
to own up his refusal to engage, I was expecting
the worst, but Billy seems genuinely remorseful, apologetic, and even
eager to hear his daughter out. He tells me he
kept his distance out of fear that at least didn't
want to hear from him at all, but he thinks
(18:18):
about her all the time.
Speaker 8 (18:21):
I don't know if it's because I'm getting over either.
I don't know if it's this.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I feel like I've lost my daughter. I don't know
what it is, but I.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Was really.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Excited when I found out that she had reached help
to you to make contact with me, because to me,
that means she wants to get our relationship back, and
that is desperately.
Speaker 8 (18:57):
What I want?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Elise?
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Hi?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
How are you nice to meet you?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I've invited Elise to my office in Brooklyn so that
we can call her father together. It will be the
first time in five years that Alise hears Billy's voice.
How are you feeling very nervous? You are? Do you
want some coffee? Nothing calms the Kishkas better than a
nice cup of coffee. Alise declines, and we settle in
(19:48):
for some small talk while I set up the call.
As we chat, I'm struck by Elise's cultural sensitivity.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
Wasn't it Canada Day? Recently? It was Canada Day?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Thank you? And I fumble around, incapable of an appropriately
reciprocal well wish. Hmmm. We're three days after Canada Day,
so that makes it the third, maybe the fourth of July. Naw,
I got nothing. I tell the Lease about my conversation
with Billy. How remorseful and open to talking he seemed.
(20:23):
She's still worried, but says she wasn't even expecting things
to progress this far.
Speaker 10 (20:27):
I'm very surprised he spoke to you. I'm very surprised
he was candid with you.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
So that's a positive, right, and that's a change. Yeah,
so do you wanna shall we try this?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Make the call? Yeah, so it's Monday, six in the evening,
so it is six a m. In the Philippines. It's
really yeah, Well let's try him.
Speaker 9 (20:56):
Okay, what.
Speaker 11 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Hello is this Bill?
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Hi Bill, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.
Speaker 8 (21:13):
Hi buddy. What's going on?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, I'm here with Elise.
Speaker 9 (21:20):
He did.
Speaker 8 (21:23):
Hi. Hi, honey. How are you?
Speaker 7 (21:27):
I'm I'm good. How are you? Everything is good this end,
that's good.
Speaker 8 (21:34):
I'm glad that you were approached Johnson. Any communication that
we can get I think is really good.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Yeah, I'm sorry it took such a long time.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
I just stay what I understand you what gools to work?
German problems And yes things went wrong towards the end,
and yes they're one fault.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
And if you.
Speaker 8 (22:06):
Think back, we shared a lot of great.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
But Elise isn't here to talk about the great times.
She's here to talk about the bad times. In fact,
she's written up some notes to make sure she doesn't
leave any of her feelings or questions unsaid. The notes
are in her hand, but she isn't looking at them. Instead,
she speaks from the heart.
Speaker 7 (22:31):
Okay, I have thought about emailing you back.
Speaker 10 (22:41):
I've just been so angry that I didn't think it
would be productive, And like.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
I have just wanted to, like yell at you.
Speaker 10 (22:57):
Or cry or cuss you out for leaving and not
explaining anything. But I don't feel that like intense anger anymore.
I'm sad that we don't have a relationship like we
used to, but I feel like every time I let
(23:18):
you back in and I forgive you for whatever has
happened before, you end up just breaking my heart again.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
And I.
Speaker 10 (23:26):
Do find it very insulting that you gave another child
my name, my verse and last name.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
And I don't know.
Speaker 10 (23:36):
I don't know what relationship we're going to have in
the future. I just I had to sort of get
some of this out for any of that to be possible.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Billy is silent for a while. When he finally does respond,
he skips right over the big question about his leaving
with that explanation and focuses on the second question instead,
the question of Elisa's name.
Speaker 8 (24:09):
Well, I can tell you that it was her mother
who loves the name a leash.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I should have contested and said, no, you know, leasure,
we think this swam but I didn't, at least to
be honest with you, and I should have done.
Speaker 8 (24:32):
The Filipino culture and the Filipino thinking is different. I'll
give you another example. One of your favorite dogs is Charlie. Okay,
I've never owned a German Shepherd over here, but we
(24:53):
had a dog. But because of the stories that I've told,
what did they call the dog?
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Charlie?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
By the look on her face, at least doesn't seem
reassured by the fact that, like her Charlie, the beloved
German shepherd from her chinlihood, had also been replaced. Although
I haven't been to the Philippines, it feels as though
Billy is throwing an entire country under the bus to
save his own hide. In the silence, I try to
(25:22):
bring things back to what I think is Billy's strongest suit,
his seemingly renewed capacity for repentance. I want the least
to hear what I heard in Billy during our first conversation,
so I try to steer things in that direction.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know you you you mentioned feeling regret. What would
you do differently if you had a chance to do
things over.
Speaker 8 (25:53):
I don't think that the final outcome would change much
to be honest with you, But I should have called
for a family meeting, and I should have gone over
it in detail, with times and dates and plans.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
A family meeting about leaving your family was not the
do over I was expecting. After having heard the level
of Old Testament shame head express in our first phone call,
I'm surprised that Billy's now talking in the language of
meetings and launch dates. Alice stares down at the floor.
She looks at me. Billy's not giving her what she needs,
(26:41):
so she puts it to him as directly as she.
Speaker 10 (26:43):
Can, Like, you have to understand that you just disappeared
and I had no context. Like I want to know
what you were thinking when you left, and like why
you left, so like what happened?
Speaker 8 (26:59):
Well, there are lots of things that I would like
to explain to you. Is dogging.
Speaker 10 (27:15):
Is that I'm here, I'm listening. If there's anything you
want to say.
Speaker 8 (27:24):
Well, there were several several things that happened at last.
It's a long story that I would like to explain
to you step by step. Got kind of a really
(27:44):
busy schedule today.
Speaker 7 (27:51):
Is there any like brief overview?
Speaker 8 (27:55):
Well, yeah, honey, I can answer your questions. I have
an explanation, you know, for what happened, and I would
be more than happy to explain it to you in detail.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But then nothing. The conversation goes round and round. Billy
reassures a Lease that he has explanations, explanations of every
length and level of detail. It's just that he never
actually shares.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Any happy to do that. Every question that you may.
Speaker 7 (28:31):
Have, is there anything you've wanted to say to me?
Speaker 8 (28:37):
There won't be a question that you will ask me
that I won't answer.
Speaker 10 (28:42):
Like right now, you're just telling me that you're going
to tell me, like do you have anything to have?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Billy likes to talk about talking about hard things, but
not actually talking about them. Still, a Lease keeps pushing.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
I understand that it's very painful for you, but I.
Speaker 10 (29:03):
There have been so many times when we've just glossed
over insane things that have happened, penned crazy things.
Speaker 8 (29:13):
I understand that there's got to be explanations for things,
support said and options, support clothing, and things that got done.
And then when all of that is done, you a
Lass asked her last question, and I have told her
every single.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Thing that I want to call her.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Billy's not making any headway talking about the past, so
he turns the conversation to the future.
Speaker 8 (29:45):
I'm really hoping that the poor idea she leave this
place and I get to see you.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That wish for a more, cos.
Speaker 8 (29:55):
I don't want to die without seeing you.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (30:03):
Yeah, I don't. I don't want that either.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And with that, Alise's hands fall into her lap. As
an interlocutor, there isn't much for me to do. At least,
here's what Billy is saying and not saying, and she
doesn't need any help to understand. So I do the
only thing I can. I sit beside her, commiserating with
raised eyebrows and puzzled looks, saying without words, I see
(30:31):
the same things you do, and it's not you. For
the rest of the call, at least stays quiet and
allows Billy to talk, though it feels as though he's
mostly talking to himself.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Wouldn't be ill place.
Speaker 8 (30:51):
Don't look backwards anymore, honey, don't go backwards.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
There's too much pain back there.
Speaker 8 (30:59):
Don't go back there. Yes, just outwards form because that
happened back then.
Speaker 11 (31:05):
But let's go.
Speaker 8 (31:07):
It's just so painful. It hurts. It hurts a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
As Billy tries to push away the past while cowering
from the future, the present takes hold the when Billy
can't deny.
Speaker 8 (31:23):
I am totally.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Okay. Just wait one minutely than on the front, I
know I'm totally totally responsible for.
Speaker 8 (31:38):
And so, but if there are any other.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Explanations that I should give to you, least you know,
I'll be more than happy to do that.
Speaker 8 (32:00):
So I will be more than happy to spend my
evening starting to explain that to you.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Billy promises that that evening he'll send a lease an email,
an email that will explain everything. But it never arrives,
not that night, or the next, or any night in
the months that follow.
Speaker 8 (32:23):
I will email you later today, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Luc Yeah, okay, well, Luce, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Okay, Bill, Well, have a good rest of the day.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Yeah, thanks for thanks for talking Dad. I appreciate it.
Speaker 8 (32:49):
Okay, I have a great day, Honey.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
You too, thank you.
Speaker 9 (32:56):
Bye, Okay, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Once we're off the phone, Alise and I go over
what just happened. She tells me she felt steamrolled, and
I tell her that I felt it too.
Speaker 10 (33:20):
I wasn't really sure what I wanted to get out
of it. I don't think that everyone gets sort of
equally agreeable, compromised ending. But for a long time I
felt like the burden of us not having a relationship
was on me because he would email and I would
(33:41):
never respond, and that was kind of the end of it.
And I feel like, now that I have tried to
contact him, like the burden of us not having whatever
relationship I think we should have is not as much
on me. I feel a lot less guilt now. Will
(34:02):
never be as close as it sounds like he wanted
us to be. I don't think that's likely, and like
maybe it's okay that I don't push for that. I
think he creates his own universe like I lived. I
was a permanent resident of like Billy World for a
number of years, and I was glad to get off
the ride. Like you don't get to live in the university.
(34:23):
You create and expect it not to affect other.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
People, and other people have been affected. In recent months,
(34:46):
Elise has been corresponding with a British man named Martin,
and Martin was able to help Alise answer the question
of why her father left in a way that Billy
himself couldn't. Martin believes he's Billy's son, born before Billy
left England for Chattanooga. So, unlike Elise, Martin grew up
without a father, because, like Alise, one day, without warning,
(35:10):
his father left, moved to another country and started another family.
And from what Martin is saying, he's not the only one.
There's another man living in England, he tells her, who
also believes that Billy is his father. The two of
them have been trying to reach Billy for years. In fact,
it turns out that Martin and Elise have brushed against
(35:33):
each other before, a long time ago, when Elise was
growing up. She remembers the home phone ringing, usually around
the holidays, and a young man with her father's accent
on the line asking to speak to Billy. Back then,
Billy said Martin was a distant cousin, And all these
years later, Martin still feels like he's being pushed away.
(35:55):
He just wants Billy to acknowledge him. In learning about
Martin and her other possible half brother, how her story
has repeated itself over and over, Alise has found the
answer she needed. The answer Billy himself was never able
to give her. It isn't about her or about Martin
or anyone else. The reason Billy did what Billy did
(36:19):
is because that's what Billy does. Martin and the other
possible half brother are planning to take a DNA test,
and they'd like a lease to take one too. If
their DNA matches hers, Martin says it's all the proof
(36:41):
they'll need. Billy will have to accept them as his own.
When I talked to her on the phone about it
later on, Eli says she isn't sure a DNA test
will give Martin the thing he's looking for, but she
does want to help.
Speaker 12 (36:55):
Knowing how much I wanted to closure, it would definitely
be good to be able to provide him some.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
So the next time she and Martin speak, she'll offer
him this.
Speaker 12 (37:05):
Whatever relationship you have in your head that you want
with him is probably not possible, and I can confirm
that you're genetically related, but that doesn't guarantee that he
will be a presence in your life in a way
that you want, because he's not able to do that
for me.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
In other words, Alise will tell Martin, I see the
same things you do and it's not you. A few
months after our call with her father, Alise and I
check back in. She tells me she still hasn't heard
from Billy, but she suspects that around the holidays, like always,
(37:53):
she'll get that three sentence email, and when she does,
this time she'll write him back happy whatever holiday it is,
she'll write, hope you're well, Love Elise.
Speaker 12 (38:40):
Now that the.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Third atures returning to its goodwill.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Home, Now that the last month's RNT is skiming with
the dam problem, take this moment to dissolve.
Speaker 9 (39:00):
If we meant him, if we tried to.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Remember, felt around.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
For far too months.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
To Elise, Hi, how are you.
Speaker 7 (39:17):
Good?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Do you have another room? It's it sounds very roomy,
which which is a good quality for a room normally.
Speaker 8 (39:25):
But not for recording.
Speaker 11 (39:26):
Let me, I'm going to go I think sitting on
the floor in our closet.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's the spirit.
Speaker 7 (39:31):
It's going to take me a second to me, so
just totally.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Take take your time. This is a very big thing
that I'm asking of you.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
She hold on, don't put her in.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
The grate because that's where I'm gonna be.
Speaker 11 (39:43):
Yeah, okay, can you hear me now?
Speaker 6 (39:50):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Thank you, Thank you for your indulgence. Who were you
explaining to that you were headed for the closet?
Speaker 7 (39:59):
He actually was.
Speaker 11 (40:00):
Thinking about it because it's been like eight years since
we first chatted.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (40:03):
When we first chatted, I had just started dating him
and he's not my husband.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh cool and sorry. One last unrelated question the crating
was that a dog you were talking about? Yes, thank god?
How are you?
Speaker 11 (40:20):
I'm good. I have a number of updates about dad. Oh,
things have transpired. So there was eventually a younger sibling
in the Philippines from a different woman.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Wait sorry, wait, we're talking about little elies.
Speaker 11 (40:37):
No, there was another one after that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh wow, okay, and she was the last.
Speaker 11 (40:43):
Woman he took up with romantically, was younger than me.
Her name is Faith.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
How did you learn about this development? Have you and
your father been in touch very little, like birthdays and
Christmas kind of thing.
Speaker 11 (40:58):
Yeah, maybe even less frequent than he had been doing beforehand.
And then at some point between then and twenty twenty four,
I can't remember exactly when his lack of legal immigration
status and the Philippines did eventually catch up to him
and they put him in prison, like in detention essentially
(41:19):
for a couple of years.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
For he was in prison for a couple of years. Yes,
in the Philippines, Yes, wow, I.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Does it?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Does it even make sense? I mean, I don't know
anything about Filipino law that being there legally would have
been enough to put a person in prison for two years.
Do you think maybe there's more to the story.
Speaker 11 (41:46):
I think it's very possible, because I feel like I
remember Faith saying to mom that he was getting charged
with like additional other things that she was so sure
he didn't do, and me and my mom were like,
it's much more likely that he did them.
Speaker 9 (42:03):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
So how old a man was he at the time
that they were that he was sent to prison.
Speaker 11 (42:09):
Probably in his seventies at that point, or like just
close to. Then eventually they did deport him to Guam.
He eventually ended up in Thailand, and then in fall
of twenty twenty four, the US embassy started reaching out
(42:33):
to me because he had been hospitalized in Thailand. This
is all of this is going to sound very terrible
to say, but you know, when he was in prison
and in the hospital, like at least I knew where
he was, and then I think presumably his medical stuff
continued to devolve, and then in early essentially just over
(42:56):
a year ago, he passed away in Thailand.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Oh I'm sorry.
Speaker 11 (43:02):
Very mixed feelings.
Speaker 7 (43:03):
Yeah, I actually have his ashes and.
Speaker 11 (43:06):
I don't know what to do with them right now.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
And what is the feeling of of having them there?
Do you feel like, I mean, do you have any
feelings left?
Speaker 11 (43:15):
It's I was because I after you all reached out,
I went back and listened to the initial podcast reporting
and I remember immediately after because we recorded that it
sort of ended with the phone conversation that you facilitated
between the two of us, and then within a couple
(43:35):
of hours that I was driving back from New York
to DC, and I remember feeling so overwhelmed emotionally. I
was feeling I think mostly anger at that point because
I felt so stonewalled and like I couldn't really break
through to him in any meaningful way. And I remember
(43:59):
feeling like my heart was racing.
Speaker 7 (44:01):
I was so.
Speaker 11 (44:02):
Angry and sad, and I stopped at like a rest
stop and called my mom and tried to like work
through my feelings because I didn't want to drive in
a rage.
Speaker 7 (44:13):
For three more hours.
Speaker 11 (44:16):
I think I had grieved our relationship so much at
that point that with his passing, it was more of
a okay, this is over.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Do you think that conversation where we called him up?
I mean, do you think ultimately it was helpful.
Speaker 11 (44:35):
I think it was helpful in.
Speaker 10 (44:39):
Showing me.
Speaker 11 (44:42):
That our relationship, like in many ways, was effectively over
and that that was unlikely to change. I'm sure there
are small things that I could have done differently, but
I don't think there was any I don't think I
could have behaved in such a way that I got
(45:02):
my dad back in any meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Story ends up, you know, with the story of Martin.
What what became of that? Did you do the Yeah?
Speaker 11 (45:15):
I haven't done. Yeah, I haven't done any DNA testing.
More from like a data privacy concern.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Is that the only thing that keeps you from doing it?
Speaker 11 (45:24):
I mean I'm sure there, I'm sure there are other
uninspected reasons. Yeah, I've clearly never made the effort to
do it, which is I guess a signal in and
of itself.
Speaker 9 (45:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
So, I mean just generally, like top line, things are good.
You're doing okay you guys? Yeah, I mean, your husband,
your dog, Thanks.
Speaker 11 (45:44):
Were great. I'm so glad the dat updates are all wild,
but I'm grateful for my personal life being relatively stable.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Thanks Elise, you may exit the closet now.
Speaker 11 (45:57):
Excellent. Thank you, it was good to catch up.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll
be back in two weeks time with something a little different.
You might even say wildly different. You might say it's
something of a wild card.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Also, if you haven't heard, we've started a free newsletter
loaded with all kinds of fun word puzzles.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Much to my sugar, and we are now including a word.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Puzzle movies that we like. Photographs. It's a po POORI
would you say it's a poor POORI?
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I would say it's a pot pourri.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh, excuse me. It smells as good as a pot pourri,
and it looks great sitting on the basin of your
toilet bowl.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know it's online, right is it.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Everything's online these days, even toilet bowls. So sign up
for our exciting newsletter.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
You need to give the link.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Oh, yes, of course everything needs a link these days.
The link is patreon dot com. Slash Heavyweight
Pushkin. Hi, Jonathan, Hi, come on in. You should make
yourself at home in the studio because it is like
a sec you've been spending so much time in here.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, I actually sometimes just sleep in here. It's just
easier than having to go home.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I don't know if you should be telling me that
this might be a conversation out with hr Yeah, what
are we listening to today?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Speaking of the studio, Today we're going to revisit an
episode that started with us sitting around in the studio.
It's called a Lease.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, of course I love this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
It's a really good one that came to us, as
you'll hear, in an unconventional way.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, we were trying something new. We were trying to
do a call in show, but in our case that
basically failed, but it succeeded because we wouldn't have had
this story without it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And we have a check in with Alease at the
end about what's happened since. And truly some of the
wildest updates I would say of any of these update conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, I know, do you have a tendency to to
to skew towards clickbait, But in this case it's true
it's very eventful.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
What else is there to say to quote?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
To quote?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Jay Z?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What more can I say?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Hello?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, okay, I thought you left the studio. Yeah, let's lean.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Back, let the story unfold and let.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
This story take us away. Oh but before any of that,
a word from our sponsors. Hey, how is it that
a seal keeps balls on their nose?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Go?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Now, no, no, I have something serious.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
If I happen to groceres in the house and I've
got to paint the doors.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So you're painting the door to your house? Yes, it
pays the door red.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
It's gonna be very nice.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
But you know what a red door symbolizes, right, No,
le rouge, there is a bordello. You're kidding, right, That's
how sailors would know. They would have them down by
the viewport and they would be able to know where
they could kidding make whoopee for for money?
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Sorry, who's that?
Speaker 6 (02:40):
That's my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Could you ask him about the red door?
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Zach?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I need this.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
From Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight
Today's episode, ilise.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
So now what happens They're just gonna call We'll see.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh boy, get ready. For a while back, my producers
and I decided to try a phone in episode. Larry King,
Rush Limbaugh and other Goldstein esque personalities had found success
with them. So why, I wondered, from the depths of
my ignorance, couldn't die and so full of hubris and hope,
(03:51):
we open the phone lines and invite the whole world
to call in with a small moment from their past,
something to revisit and resolve, all during the course of
a five minute phone call. This is why I got
into this business, the know the feeling of live radio.
(04:12):
As I'm to learn the thing about a phone in
show is that you need people to phone in and
nobody is.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Cause everyone's day.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But just as I'm starting to wonder if Gimblet Media
has forgotten to pay its telephone bill again, Oh here
we go.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
We're answering.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
All right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Hello, this is Jonathan speaking.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Hi Jonathan, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It's going okay? Is this uh? What's your name?
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Elise?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
This is You're very surprised I got through. This is
so exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I guess you really lucked out. Elise is a longtime listener,
first time caller from Washington, d C. And As it
turns out, her call proves not only the first of
the day, but also the last. And this is not
just because we don't receive any other calls. It's because
I completely drawn in by the story at least tells
(05:11):
me about herself and her dad. What's his name, Billy? Billy?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah, so I guess I basically I am estranged from
my father.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
When Aalise was a kid, Billy was the fun parent,
the one who always had hours to play with her,
the guy who, in spite of being something of a
macho man, gave himself over to playing beauty salon, even
allowing Elise to paint his toenails. Before the estrangement, Billy
and Elise were really close, which is why not having
(05:47):
any relationship now hurts the way it does.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
She was my dad, Like our idea of a family
vacation was to like show up in a country with
no plan and like rent a car and just like
drive around. And it was amazing, Like that's what that's what.
Speaker 7 (06:00):
Life with dad would like. It was like every day
was an adventure.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Even the way Billy met Alisa's mom was like something
out of a movie. The first act of a film
noir Billy was an Englishman driving through Chattanooga on a
tourist visa when he got into a terrible car accident,
and the physical therapist assigned to him was Elisa's mom.
Billy was still in a wheelchair when he talked her
into sneaking him out of the hospital for their first date.
(06:32):
Pretty soon after they got married and had Elise, Billy
never went back to England. Instead, he stayed with his
family in Chattanooga and became a successful used car salesman.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I have a lot of things in my upbringing in
life with him to be very grateful for. In addition
to all the craziness.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
In reference to her dad, Elise brings up craziness a lot,
like the crazy way Billy ruined her credit by opening
a business in her name, or the crazy time he
drove home a brand new car only to have cops
come looking for it with their guns drawn, or the
crazy way he destroyed his twenty four year marriage with
a series of affairs. There's one Christmas where he bailed
(07:15):
on the family only to spend the holiday with another woman.
And for all of these things, no matter how jarring
or painful, Elise is found it in herself to forgive
her father, but there's one thing she hasn't been able
to forgive.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
About five years ago, he moved out of the country
without telling us.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Us is Elise and her mom. Elise's parents had been
married her whole life, but had recently separated around the
time of his disappearance. Her last good memory of her
dad is watching him wave from the crowd as she
crossed the stage at our college graduation. Days later, he disappeared,
and disappeared is the word for it. Elise says that
(08:01):
when she went over to his house, she found food
rotting in the refrigerator and all the furniture still there.
For a week, Aleist had no idea what had happened
to her father, and then she received an email. It
simply said he'd be gone for a little while and
(08:22):
that email was the best way to stay in touch.
There was no further explanation. The next time she heard
from him was on her birthday six months later, a
Christmas note. And that's more or less been the pattern
for the last five years.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
On holidays and my birthday and stuff like that. His
emails are very short, like three sentences or less, sort
of happy whatever holiday it is I hope you're well,
love Dad.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
At first, at least tried responding. She'd express some of
her pain and anger in hopes of provoking a more
substantial dialogue, but Billy would refuse to engage. So after
an email pressing her father for answers, a few months
would pass with no response, and then an email would
land and Elisa's inbox wishing her a happy whatever holiday
(09:13):
it is and hoping she's well. Love Dad, as though
nothing was ever expressed and nothing was ever asked of him. Eventually,
Alice stopped responding to his emails entirely.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
We don't have a mailing address for him. I don't
know if his phone number. Like the only connection I
have to him is a Comcast email address.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Do you do you know where he's living.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
He's in the Philippines, and that's all I know. My
mom has a pinpoint into like a region. But like
there was ever, like he never told me where he
was going or why he never he never explained why
he left.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And this is what Elise wants, an explanation for his departure,
an emotional, honest conversation where she can ask him why
and what happened, Because in the five years since she
last saw him, a lot has happened.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
He started a new family, he also has like a
wife and a kid. Uh huh, And then he actually
named his new daughter my name Elise.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Oh my god, I.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Just find it so insulting. It's just such a transparent replacement,
like I moved to a country and like made a
new youth.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So when people search for Elise on Facebook, the first
result that comes up is new Elise and the page
Billy made for her, which means old Elise is forced
to constantly explain that this is her dad's new daughter
from his new family, who also just so happens to.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Have her name, Like, he just wants me to like
love him and be happy with him again. But the
elephant in the room is that he's living mysteriously somewhere
(11:04):
for half a decade and we've never discussed it.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
At least feels like she and Billy are living in
two different realities. She in the one where her father
abandoned her, and he in the one where he did
nothing wrong. She wants her dad to validate what she's
seen and felt to understand. Otherwise, how can they move forward?
Are you wanting to have a relationship with him.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Pardon me, is because he's also he's like diabetic, and
like he's just kind of old and sick and might
die and I might never know. He's sixty five and
possibly working a very physically taxing job. She was working
on containerships when we first moved over, And I've been
passively choosing the root of not having a relationship. But
(11:50):
the fear and the guilt gets worse with time, and.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
What would what would pursuing a relationship look like?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
That's what I'm That's what I'm trying to figure out.
It's like, yeah, I mean, he's my dad and I
feel like he's trying to maintain a relationship with me,
and I just don't know how to work past it.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I know I can sometimes come across as something of
a meddler, but I only decide to get involved in
the business of upturning people's entire lives after hours, sometimes
even days, of careful consideration. But then, I've never hosted
a call in show before, and so adrenalized by the
single flashing light on my switchboard and the imperial perch
(12:43):
of my slightly elevated swivel chair, I dive in would
you want me to call him up? And I say this,
by the way, like with the idea that this could
be a terrible, terrible idea, I'm not championing this idea.
This could be a stupid idea.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
It's better than any of the ideas that I've had
for the past five years. So yeah, I think I
think it would be helpful.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
My idea is to serve as Elise's emotional advance scout,
to call up her dad and see if he might
be ready after all this time, to talk to Elise
and offer some answers. Given what Elise has told me
about her dad, I can't say I'm optimistic about that.
But then again, I can't say I'm optimistic about anything.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Good luck for the rest of your calls.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
No one's gonna call anyway. So no, this was a
good call in show. And so it comes to pass
that I email Billy. As I await his response, I
imagine various scenarios. Maybe Billy will treat me like a
(13:54):
student loan officer. Sorry, sir, you've got the wrong Billy,
he might say. Or perhaps he'll try to convince me
I have the story all wrong, that Elise and her
mom are the real Villains. After a week and a half,
I finally hear back from Billy, and his actual response
(14:16):
is more surprising than any I might have imagined. It's
just a simple note apologizing for the delay. Billy explains
it's the rainy season and the Philippines and it's been
messing with his Internet. But he says he really wants
to talk to me. To be honest with you, He writes,
you are the only hope I have of communicating with Elise. Hello,
(14:48):
oh hi, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
Hey Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
It's a terrible evening here again, thunder and lightning. As
I told you, rainy seasons.
Speaker 8 (14:59):
So but anyway, so Elise contacted you.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Although Elise's last mine memory of her dad was at
her graduation ceremony, Billy has a different final memory, and
as he describes it, it was one of the most
painful moments of his life. He was in the midst
of the separation from Elisa's mom.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I was walking out of the garage carrying a box
and you can see straight into the house from the driveway.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
And Elise was in the dining room.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
Well.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
When she saw me, she.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Darted back into the living room, and kind of hid
herself so I couldn't see her. But I know for
a fact that she saw me because we made eye contact.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I get that this had to have been painful for Billy,
but as Elisa's interlocutor, I tell him this isn't about
his pain. It's about his daughter's pain in her anger,
and if they're to speak, he should be prepared for that.
I can't imagine that something Billy wants to hear, and
I'm worried how he'll react.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
As far as her feeling anger on her mother's behalf,
that I can assure you is completely understandable.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Once again, Billy has managed to surprise me.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I basically putn't it bluntly shit all over that woman
on many occasions. He was one particular Sunday morning that
she was up cooking breakfast and the phone rings and
there's a woman on the phone. And the woman says, Hey,
this is Angela. Can I speak to Billy? And my
(17:02):
wife said, well.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Who are you?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
And she just openly older she said, well, I'm his girlfriend.
Can you imagine a wife getting a owe concos of
s like that on a Sunday morning in the middle
of breakfast, saying I'm your husband's girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (17:22):
If at least broke is that with you, I can
assure you that every single word that she says is accurate,
and if it's not a really ugly picture, she's left
something like because trust me.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It's a really ugly picture.
Speaker 8 (17:41):
But there's absolutely nothing that I won't be completely honest
and open about. The honest that I have absolutely no
problem discussing anything with you.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
After hearing everything ALIST had to say about Billy's unwillingness
to own up his refusal to engage, I was expecting
the worst, but Billy seems genuinely remorseful, apologetic, and even
eager to hear his daughter out. He tells me he
kept his distance out of fear that at least didn't
want to hear from him at all, but he thinks
(18:18):
about her all the time.
Speaker 8 (18:21):
I don't know if it's because I'm getting over either.
I don't know if it's this.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I feel like I've lost my daughter. I don't know
what it is, but I.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Was really.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Excited when I found out that she had reached help
to you to make contact with me, because to me,
that means she wants to get our relationship back, and
that is desperately.
Speaker 8 (18:57):
What I want?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Elise?
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Hi?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
How are you nice to meet you?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I've invited Elise to my office in Brooklyn so that
we can call her father together. It will be the
first time in five years that Alise hears Billy's voice.
How are you feeling very nervous? You are? Do you
want some coffee? Nothing calms the Kishkas better than a
nice cup of coffee. Alise declines, and we settle in
(19:48):
for some small talk while I set up the call.
As we chat, I'm struck by Elise's cultural sensitivity.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
Wasn't it Canada Day? Recently? It was Canada Day?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Thank you? And I fumble around, incapable of an appropriately
reciprocal well wish. Hmmm. We're three days after Canada Day,
so that makes it the third, maybe the fourth of July. Naw,
I got nothing. I tell the Lease about my conversation
with Billy. How remorseful and open to talking he seemed.
(20:23):
She's still worried, but says she wasn't even expecting things
to progress this far.
Speaker 10 (20:27):
I'm very surprised he spoke to you. I'm very surprised
he was candid with you.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
So that's a positive, right, and that's a change. Yeah,
so do you wanna shall we try this?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Make the call? Yeah, so it's Monday, six in the evening,
so it is six a m. In the Philippines. It's
really yeah, Well let's try him.
Speaker 9 (20:56):
Okay, what.
Speaker 11 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Hello is this Bill?
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Hi Bill, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.
Speaker 8 (21:13):
Hi buddy. What's going on?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, I'm here with Elise.
Speaker 9 (21:20):
He did.
Speaker 8 (21:23):
Hi. Hi, honey. How are you?
Speaker 7 (21:27):
I'm I'm good. How are you? Everything is good this end,
that's good.
Speaker 8 (21:34):
I'm glad that you were approached Johnson. Any communication that
we can get I think is really good.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Yeah, I'm sorry it took such a long time.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
I just stay what I understand you what gools to work?
German problems And yes things went wrong towards the end,
and yes they're one fault.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
And if you.
Speaker 8 (22:06):
Think back, we shared a lot of great.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
But Elise isn't here to talk about the great times.
She's here to talk about the bad times. In fact,
she's written up some notes to make sure she doesn't
leave any of her feelings or questions unsaid. The notes
are in her hand, but she isn't looking at them. Instead,
she speaks from the heart.
Speaker 7 (22:31):
Okay, I have thought about emailing you back.
Speaker 10 (22:41):
I've just been so angry that I didn't think it
would be productive, And like.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
I have just wanted to, like yell at you.
Speaker 10 (22:57):
Or cry or cuss you out for leaving and not
explaining anything. But I don't feel that like intense anger anymore.
I'm sad that we don't have a relationship like we
used to, but I feel like every time I let
(23:18):
you back in and I forgive you for whatever has
happened before, you end up just breaking my heart again.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
And I.
Speaker 10 (23:26):
Do find it very insulting that you gave another child
my name, my verse and last name.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
And I don't know.
Speaker 10 (23:36):
I don't know what relationship we're going to have in
the future. I just I had to sort of get
some of this out for any of that to be possible.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Billy is silent for a while. When he finally does respond,
he skips right over the big question about his leaving
with that explanation and focuses on the second question instead,
the question of Elisa's name.
Speaker 8 (24:09):
Well, I can tell you that it was her mother
who loves the name a leash.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I should have contested and said, no, you know, leasure,
we think this swam but I didn't, at least to
be honest with you, and I should have done.
Speaker 8 (24:32):
The Filipino culture and the Filipino thinking is different. I'll
give you another example. One of your favorite dogs is Charlie. Okay,
I've never owned a German Shepherd over here, but we
(24:53):
had a dog. But because of the stories that I've told,
what did they call the dog?
Speaker 6 (24:59):
Charlie?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
By the look on her face, at least doesn't seem
reassured by the fact that, like her Charlie, the beloved
German shepherd from her chinlihood, had also been replaced. Although
I haven't been to the Philippines, it feels as though
Billy is throwing an entire country under the bus to
save his own hide. In the silence, I try to
(25:22):
bring things back to what I think is Billy's strongest suit,
his seemingly renewed capacity for repentance. I want the least
to hear what I heard in Billy during our first conversation,
so I try to steer things in that direction.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Bill.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know you you you mentioned feeling regret. What would
you do differently if you had a chance to do
things over.
Speaker 8 (25:53):
I don't think that the final outcome would change much
to be honest with you, But I should have called
for a family meeting, and I should have gone over
it in detail, with times and dates and plans.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
A family meeting about leaving your family was not the
do over I was expecting. After having heard the level
of Old Testament shame head express in our first phone call,
I'm surprised that Billy's now talking in the language of
meetings and launch dates. Alice stares down at the floor.
She looks at me. Billy's not giving her what she needs,
(26:41):
so she puts it to him as directly as she.
Speaker 10 (26:43):
Can, Like, you have to understand that you just disappeared
and I had no context. Like I want to know
what you were thinking when you left, and like why
you left, so like what happened?
Speaker 8 (26:59):
Well, there are lots of things that I would like
to explain to you. Is dogging.
Speaker 10 (27:15):
Is that I'm here, I'm listening. If there's anything you
want to say.
Speaker 8 (27:24):
Well, there were several several things that happened at last.
It's a long story that I would like to explain
to you step by step. Got kind of a really
(27:44):
busy schedule today.
Speaker 7 (27:51):
Is there any like brief overview?
Speaker 8 (27:55):
Well, yeah, honey, I can answer your questions. I have
an explanation, you know, for what happened, and I would
be more than happy to explain it to you in detail.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But then nothing. The conversation goes round and round. Billy
reassures a Lease that he has explanations, explanations of every
length and level of detail. It's just that he never
actually shares.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Any happy to do that. Every question that you may.
Speaker 7 (28:31):
Have, is there anything you've wanted to say to me?
Speaker 8 (28:37):
There won't be a question that you will ask me
that I won't answer.
Speaker 10 (28:42):
Like right now, you're just telling me that you're going
to tell me, like do you have anything to have?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Billy likes to talk about talking about hard things, but
not actually talking about them. Still, a Lease keeps pushing.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
I understand that it's very painful for you, but I.
Speaker 10 (29:03):
There have been so many times when we've just glossed
over insane things that have happened, penned crazy things.
Speaker 8 (29:13):
I understand that there's got to be explanations for things,
support said and options, support clothing, and things that got done.
And then when all of that is done, you a
Lass asked her last question, and I have told her
every single.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Thing that I want to call her.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Billy's not making any headway talking about the past, so
he turns the conversation to the future.
Speaker 8 (29:45):
I'm really hoping that the poor idea she leave this
place and I get to see you.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That wish for a more, cos.
Speaker 8 (29:55):
I don't want to die without seeing you.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (30:03):
Yeah, I don't. I don't want that either.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And with that, Alise's hands fall into her lap. As
an interlocutor, there isn't much for me to do. At least,
here's what Billy is saying and not saying, and she
doesn't need any help to understand. So I do the
only thing I can. I sit beside her, commiserating with
raised eyebrows and puzzled looks, saying without words, I see
(30:31):
the same things you do, and it's not you. For
the rest of the call, at least stays quiet and
allows Billy to talk, though it feels as though he's
mostly talking to himself.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Wouldn't be ill place.
Speaker 8 (30:51):
Don't look backwards anymore, honey, don't go backwards.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
There's too much pain back there.
Speaker 8 (30:59):
Don't go back there. Yes, just outwards form because that
happened back then.
Speaker 11 (31:05):
But let's go.
Speaker 8 (31:07):
It's just so painful. It hurts. It hurts a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
As Billy tries to push away the past while cowering
from the future, the present takes hold the when Billy
can't deny.
Speaker 8 (31:23):
I am totally.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Okay. Just wait one minutely than on the front, I
know I'm totally totally responsible for.
Speaker 8 (31:38):
And so, but if there are any other.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Explanations that I should give to you, least you know,
I'll be more than happy to do that.
Speaker 8 (32:00):
So I will be more than happy to spend my
evening starting to explain that to you.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Billy promises that that evening he'll send a lease an email,
an email that will explain everything. But it never arrives,
not that night, or the next, or any night in
the months that follow.
Speaker 8 (32:23):
I will email you later today, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Luc Yeah, okay, well, Luce, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Okay, Bill, Well, have a good rest of the day.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Yeah, thanks for thanks for talking Dad. I appreciate it.
Speaker 8 (32:49):
Okay, I have a great day, Honey.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
You too, thank you.
Speaker 9 (32:56):
Bye, Okay, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Once we're off the phone, Alise and I go over
what just happened. She tells me she felt steamrolled, and
I tell her that I felt it too.
Speaker 10 (33:20):
I wasn't really sure what I wanted to get out
of it. I don't think that everyone gets sort of
equally agreeable, compromised ending. But for a long time I
felt like the burden of us not having a relationship
was on me because he would email and I would
(33:41):
never respond, and that was kind of the end of it.
And I feel like, now that I have tried to
contact him, like the burden of us not having whatever
relationship I think we should have is not as much
on me. I feel a lot less guilt now. Will
(34:02):
never be as close as it sounds like he wanted
us to be. I don't think that's likely, and like
maybe it's okay that I don't push for that. I
think he creates his own universe like I lived. I
was a permanent resident of like Billy World for a
number of years, and I was glad to get off
the ride. Like you don't get to live in the university.
(34:23):
You create and expect it not to affect other.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
People, and other people have been affected. In recent months,
(34:46):
Elise has been corresponding with a British man named Martin,
and Martin was able to help Alise answer the question
of why her father left in a way that Billy
himself couldn't. Martin believes he's Billy's son, born before Billy
left England for Chattanooga. So, unlike Elise, Martin grew up
without a father, because, like Alise, one day, without warning,
(35:10):
his father left, moved to another country and started another family.
And from what Martin is saying, he's not the only one.
There's another man living in England, he tells her, who
also believes that Billy is his father. The two of
them have been trying to reach Billy for years. In fact,
it turns out that Martin and Elise have brushed against
(35:33):
each other before, a long time ago, when Elise was
growing up. She remembers the home phone ringing, usually around
the holidays, and a young man with her father's accent
on the line asking to speak to Billy. Back then,
Billy said Martin was a distant cousin, And all these
years later, Martin still feels like he's being pushed away.
(35:55):
He just wants Billy to acknowledge him. In learning about
Martin and her other possible half brother, how her story
has repeated itself over and over, Alise has found the
answer she needed. The answer Billy himself was never able
to give her. It isn't about her or about Martin
or anyone else. The reason Billy did what Billy did
(36:19):
is because that's what Billy does. Martin and the other
possible half brother are planning to take a DNA test,
and they'd like a lease to take one too. If
their DNA matches hers, Martin says it's all the proof
(36:41):
they'll need. Billy will have to accept them as his own.
When I talked to her on the phone about it
later on, Eli says she isn't sure a DNA test
will give Martin the thing he's looking for, but she
does want to help.
Speaker 12 (36:55):
Knowing how much I wanted to closure, it would definitely
be good to be able to provide him some.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
So the next time she and Martin speak, she'll offer
him this.
Speaker 12 (37:05):
Whatever relationship you have in your head that you want
with him is probably not possible, and I can confirm
that you're genetically related, but that doesn't guarantee that he
will be a presence in your life in a way
that you want, because he's not able to do that
for me.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
In other words, Alise will tell Martin, I see the
same things you do and it's not you. A few
months after our call with her father, Alise and I
check back in. She tells me she still hasn't heard
from Billy, but she suspects that around the holidays, like always,
(37:53):
she'll get that three sentence email, and when she does,
this time she'll write him back happy whatever holiday it is,
she'll write, hope you're well, Love Elise.
Speaker 12 (38:40):
Now that the.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Third atures returning to its goodwill.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Home, Now that the last month's RNT is skiming with
the dam problem, take this moment to dissolve.
Speaker 9 (39:00):
If we meant him, if we tried to.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Remember, felt around.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
For far too months.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
To Elise, Hi, how are you.
Speaker 7 (39:17):
Good?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Do you have another room? It's it sounds very roomy,
which which is a good quality for a room normally.
Speaker 8 (39:25):
But not for recording.
Speaker 11 (39:26):
Let me, I'm going to go I think sitting on
the floor in our closet.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's the spirit.
Speaker 7 (39:31):
It's going to take me a second to me, so
just totally.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Take take your time. This is a very big thing
that I'm asking of you.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
She hold on, don't put her in.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
The grate because that's where I'm gonna be.
Speaker 11 (39:43):
Yeah, okay, can you hear me now?
Speaker 6 (39:50):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Thank you, Thank you for your indulgence. Who were you
explaining to that you were headed for the closet?
Speaker 7 (39:59):
He actually was.
Speaker 11 (40:00):
Thinking about it because it's been like eight years since
we first chatted.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (40:03):
When we first chatted, I had just started dating him
and he's not my husband.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh cool and sorry. One last unrelated question the crating
was that a dog you were talking about? Yes, thank god?
How are you?
Speaker 11 (40:20):
I'm good. I have a number of updates about dad. Oh,
things have transpired. So there was eventually a younger sibling
in the Philippines from a different woman.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Wait sorry, wait, we're talking about little elies.
Speaker 11 (40:37):
No, there was another one after that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh wow, okay, and she was the last.
Speaker 11 (40:43):
Woman he took up with romantically, was younger than me.
Her name is Faith.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
How did you learn about this development? Have you and
your father been in touch very little, like birthdays and
Christmas kind of thing.
Speaker 11 (40:58):
Yeah, maybe even less frequent than he had been doing beforehand.
And then at some point between then and twenty twenty four,
I can't remember exactly when his lack of legal immigration
status and the Philippines did eventually catch up to him
and they put him in prison, like in detention essentially
(41:19):
for a couple of years.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
For he was in prison for a couple of years. Yes,
in the Philippines, Yes, wow, I.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Does it?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Does it even make sense? I mean, I don't know
anything about Filipino law that being there legally would have
been enough to put a person in prison for two years.
Do you think maybe there's more to the story.
Speaker 11 (41:46):
I think it's very possible, because I feel like I
remember Faith saying to mom that he was getting charged
with like additional other things that she was so sure
he didn't do, and me and my mom were like,
it's much more likely that he did them.
Speaker 9 (42:03):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
So how old a man was he at the time
that they were that he was sent to prison.
Speaker 11 (42:09):
Probably in his seventies at that point, or like just
close to. Then eventually they did deport him to Guam.
He eventually ended up in Thailand, and then in fall
of twenty twenty four, the US embassy started reaching out
(42:33):
to me because he had been hospitalized in Thailand. This
is all of this is going to sound very terrible
to say, but you know, when he was in prison
and in the hospital, like at least I knew where
he was, and then I think presumably his medical stuff
continued to devolve, and then in early essentially just over
(42:56):
a year ago, he passed away in Thailand.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Oh I'm sorry.
Speaker 11 (43:02):
Very mixed feelings.
Speaker 7 (43:03):
Yeah, I actually have his ashes and.
Speaker 11 (43:06):
I don't know what to do with them right now.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
And what is the feeling of of having them there?
Do you feel like, I mean, do you have any
feelings left?
Speaker 11 (43:15):
It's I was because I after you all reached out,
I went back and listened to the initial podcast reporting
and I remember immediately after because we recorded that it
sort of ended with the phone conversation that you facilitated
between the two of us, and then within a couple
(43:35):
of hours that I was driving back from New York
to DC, and I remember feeling so overwhelmed emotionally. I
was feeling I think mostly anger at that point because
I felt so stonewalled and like I couldn't really break
through to him in any meaningful way. And I remember
(43:59):
feeling like my heart was racing.
Speaker 7 (44:01):
I was so.
Speaker 11 (44:02):
Angry and sad, and I stopped at like a rest
stop and called my mom and tried to like work
through my feelings because I didn't want to drive in
a rage.
Speaker 7 (44:13):
For three more hours.
Speaker 11 (44:16):
I think I had grieved our relationship so much at
that point that with his passing, it was more of
a okay, this is over.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Do you think that conversation where we called him up?
I mean, do you think ultimately it was helpful.
Speaker 11 (44:35):
I think it was helpful in.
Speaker 10 (44:39):
Showing me.
Speaker 11 (44:42):
That our relationship, like in many ways, was effectively over
and that that was unlikely to change. I'm sure there
are small things that I could have done differently, but
I don't think there was any I don't think I
could have behaved in such a way that I got
(45:02):
my dad back in any meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Story ends up, you know, with the story of Martin.
What what became of that? Did you do the Yeah?
Speaker 11 (45:15):
I haven't done. Yeah, I haven't done any DNA testing.
More from like a data privacy concern.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Is that the only thing that keeps you from doing it?
Speaker 11 (45:24):
I mean I'm sure there, I'm sure there are other
uninspected reasons. Yeah, I've clearly never made the effort to
do it, which is I guess a signal in and
of itself.
Speaker 9 (45:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
So, I mean just generally, like top line, things are good.
You're doing okay you guys? Yeah, I mean, your husband,
your dog, Thanks.
Speaker 11 (45:44):
Were great. I'm so glad the dat updates are all wild,
but I'm grateful for my personal life being relatively stable.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Thanks Elise, you may exit the closet now.
Speaker 11 (45:57):
Excellent. Thank you, it was good to catch up.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll
be back in two weeks time with something a little different.
You might even say wildly different. You might say it's
something of a wild card.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Also, if you haven't heard, we've started a free newsletter
loaded with all kinds of fun word puzzles.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Much to my sugar, and we are now including a word.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Puzzle movies that we like. Photographs. It's a po POORI
would you say it's a poor POORI?
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I would say it's a pot pourri.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh, excuse me. It smells as good as a pot pourri,
and it looks great sitting on the basin of your
toilet bowl.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know it's online, right is it.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Everything's online these days, even toilet bowls. So sign up
for our exciting newsletter.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
You need to give the link.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Oh, yes, of course everything needs a link these days.
The link is patreon dot com. Slash Heavyweight
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