January 14, 2025 • 40 mins
Doug Gottlieb reacts to the Vikings losing to the Rams and gives his thoughts on what this means for the future of Sam Darnold. 3 & Out Podcast Host John Middlekauff joins Doug to give his thoughts on if Deion Sanders is a real candidate for the Cowboys job. Plus, is it time for the Steelers to move on from Mike Tomlin?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlieb
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
three to five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Box Sports Radio.
Find your local station for the Doug Gottlieb Show at
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Doug Gottlieb Show, Bock Sports Radio coming to you from
(00:24):
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dot com. So a tire buying should be Hey, welcome in.
(00:45):
I need a little help and a little balance from
my good friend Dan Byer. And here's really what it
comes down to. Last night we watched the Rams just
dismantle the Vikings offensive line, their offense in general. It
was it was ugly. There's no other way around it.
(01:07):
It was just absolutely positively an ugly, ugly thing. And
we've gotten this place where, I mean, my goodness, people
are going top rope on. Three quarterbacks have lost and
not played particularly well. And those three quarterbacks now, I
guess in the public's mind are awful. And I watched
(01:30):
Sam Donald last night and then I talked to my
good friend Dania Rolovsky via text, and I just asked him,
I like, hey, what percentage of that was Donald? And
he's like, well, what percentage that was offensive line? He's
like ninety percent offensive line? And that's what I saw.
I mean, look, no quarterbacks survives that type of onslaught. None.
(01:55):
If you missed it, here's Paul Allen, voice of the
Vikings on kfan of the Vikings Radio network.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Two receivers left rams flints.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Donald gets away from it, steps up in the pocket.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
He's holding it too long.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Run just run.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Hold the twenty five yard line.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
He's sacked for a fIF time.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
All he's got to do is pull that thing down
and run and get as much positive yardage as he can.
There were five to seven yards easy there to be made.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
He saw Buffalo do this.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
To them all day long because they're not always disciplined
in their lanes. But if he pulls this thing down
right there, he has a good five seven yards, if
not more.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Right, take what's there.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Well, he was under durest the entire game the entire game.
And I know where lovesk He's a former quarterback and
a long time backup sometimes starter, and he has tendency
says to side with the quarterback. But if you ask
anybody in football, they'll say it mirror their plan mirrored
that of the Lions, and the Lions did the same
thing to Donald. And I think we're somewhere in between
(03:04):
how he was being seen and valued and some sort
of hack backup that got exposed. Like, I get it,
he wasn't particularly good. I get it he was seeing ghosts.
But I just when do we get to this place where,
I mean, you go back and you look at some
(03:26):
of these quarterbacks that have lost. And we mentioned it
yesterday with with Justin Herbert, Like Justin Herbert a great year,
He's a good quarterback, didn't play particularly well. Offensive line
also didn't protect all that well. But if you go
to social media or go to media, oh my gosh,
top rope in terms of negativity. Now there is a
(03:50):
part of it. There is a part of it that
needs to be discussed. Because I've brought this up and
I haven't heard anywhere else. You know, people talk about
the n and you know the Packers losing, the Vikings losing,
and we'll see what the Lions do. It's important to
point out that what place you finished the year before
(04:13):
does determine the level of your schedule for the next year.
But I think I'm the only one who said this
on national radio and national TV. That division, the NFC
North crossed over against the NFC West and the AFC South,
the NFC West and the AFC South. So if you
(04:35):
ask yourself, honestly, what's the weakest division in football, you
would say the NFC North and the AFC South. And
oh yeah, by the way, the Vikings lost to the
Rams twice, so this shouldn't have been a surprise. They
had a good beat on what the Vikings did, and
(04:55):
the Vikings either Sam Darnold, Kevin O'Connell, their offensive line
was unable to adjust. But again, I'm I get that
we have this weird thing with losing playoff quarterbacks where
somehow now they just suck because they didn't have a
(05:16):
particularly good game under duress, and you could track it
like it it. I remember Kyler Murray a couple of
years ago when he lost to the Rams. Part of
it is the Rams are really well coached, and the
Rams defensive line is actually very very good, and part
of it is Sam Donald hadn't played at that level
and his offensive line hadn't played at that level, and
(05:38):
they all got a little bit exposed. But we're in
the everybody wants to throw the baby out with the
bathwater thing and I'm not there byer, Where are you
on the the supreme negativity we've seen in some of
these losing quarterbacks.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, I don't think it's. I think that, like the
Justin Herbert situation is different from what it is with
Sam Donald. And so the conversation that we had that
you had yesterday about Justin Herbert, I think is completely
different than the one we're having about Sam Donald. And
we've had negative conversations about quarterbacks. In fact, I can
(06:16):
almost bet that coming up on Monday, it was going
to say a week for Monday, coming up on Monday,
there will be a conversation either about Josh Allen or
Lamar Jackson and whoever loses that game. Yes, and that
is automatic book it. Lets let's put it down right now,
because whoever doesn't win that game, we.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Just we just need to write negative quarterback conversation. Yes,
in the a's of each hour of the show, and
only thing we need to slide in is is it
Lamar Jackson or is it Josh Allen.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, and that's not fair to either either player. I
think that the Herbert conversation I thought was unfair. Now
it doesn't matter in the world of social media. I
think the Donald the conversation was just entirely in. The
whole situation is entirely unique. And so I'm willing to
give leeway to Justin Herbert because I felt like I've
(07:11):
seen it more from Justin Herbert. But I don't think
that Sam Donald, unfortunately is given the same leeway for
a variety of reasons. And so that's why I think
last night that the criticism almost in a way is
or just at least the conversation Doug. I don't even
want to say the criticism the conversation about Donald is
(07:32):
different than everything and anything else because of what they
did in the draft, because of what he has done
and then what has transpired over the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I would agree they're very unique. It's a very unique story,
and I just I think we're holding the last five
years against him in one game and it's like you're
waiting for You're waiting for something bad to happen. It
honestly feels like what it's like to be a Charger
fan in general, right, just waiting on something bad to happen,
(08:02):
and in the second something bad happens or you gotta
have bag.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Like ah ah.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I don't think I've ever and you tell me if
I'm wrong, because you've been with me now for seven
and a half years. I don't remember ever this year
saying he's an elite top five quarterback. What I've said
is he obviously was super talented. I've always loved the
guy personally and how he plays, and if it's me,
(08:31):
I would rather him be my starter at least I
know his flaws. Then JJ McCarthy, who I have no
idea what he looks like as an NFL quarterback.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Correct. I don't agree with your assessment, but I think
that your assessment of the situation is fair. I look
at it and say, I know Sam Darnold's ceiling, and
so while I'm not taking the previous five years and
holding before holding it against him, I feel that there
is evidence enough to get an idea of who Sam
Donald is and what Sam Donald is, even if these
(09:03):
last eighteen games that he's played have been mostly very
very good MVP sort of candidate. My takeaway just to
tell you is that to your point about the schedule,
it's correct, but it's that Sam Donald isn't good enough
or special enough or will max out as a player
(09:23):
that is enough to get you over the top in
that situation. And that's why I think that you at
least owe it to yourself. Whether JJ McCarthy is or
isn't the answer, you at least owe it to yourself
to see that through. Since he used the first round
pick on him.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Well that's fair. I don't know if you have to
do it next year. Again, it all depends on how
much Sam Donald wants in order to stay. But again
it's a fair thing to look at. And I obviously
you're holding his past against him, but holding his past
against him is just Hey, you feel like you have
(09:58):
a better gauge because you have more games, you know
you have you have more games to kind of go by, right,
that's the we have way more tape on him. You
know who Sam Donald is. That's that's kind of the
overwhelming statement. And you feel like that got exposed last night. Yeah, yes, yes, Okay,
I'm going to disagree, and I would if I'm the Vikings,
(10:22):
I try and get him on the cheap, relatively cheap,
and then I see if it organically becomes JJ McCarthy.
But I know I have a guy who can carry
us through the regular season. Okay, so let me help
you with another argument.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Can I just say something on this? It's actually a question.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Do you think that another NFL team will pay more
to Sam Donald or offers Sam Donald more than what
the Vikings will this offseason?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Depends what the Vikings offer.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I think it doesn't even matter. I think they will.
I think that Donald, to your point, Doug has shown
enough that he is an option for another team out there,
and the Viking, I don't think, because of that, will
have any motivation to try to match because the price
is probably just going to be higher than what they
obviously just paid for him.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think he can hit the market.
If he hits the market, then he's going to be
gone and somebody will pay a little bit more. Okay,
So can I here Here's what I like to do. Now,
have we talked about this that I was on the
debate in the debate club when I was in.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
High school years ago.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yes, okay, so I was in the debate club model
United Nations, and I've done this for a lot of
debates that if this is true, then this must be
true as well. Correct. Okay, So again it's a debate style.
So I do think that one thing that most people believe,
(11:45):
and I do think it's mostly true, is what you
are in the playoffs is who you really are as quarterback.
Who you are in the playoffs is who you are
as a quarterback. It's a lot like in life people
say who you are as a drunk is who you
are underneath all the surface exterior, right, which I believe.
(12:11):
Steve Kerr says who you are as a basketball player,
how you play as basketball players, how you live your life.
I also think that's true, and I think a lot
of people believe, including NFL people, in terms of your ceiling,
how you play in the playoffs is a true determinant
to how you are in life, how you are overall
as a quarterback? Is that? Do you do you?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I don't go by that statement, I don't, but do people? Yes,
playoffs are what matter okay, so.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And Lamar Jackson was good the other day, but it
was against a foe that they should have dominated. Right,
the question becomes, if we're going to have a fair
conversation about Lamar Jackson and let's see what happens against Buffalo.
Right to this point, he is far below that of
the two time MVP status in the playoffs. And what
(13:05):
I find to be really interesting is there's a lot
of people who push back and say, like, we need
to criticize these quarterbacks because people criticize Lamar Jackson. And
I thought the criticism of Lamar Jackson was fair. That's
fair because everybody said the same thing. He's really good,
but man, he's got to throw the bell better from
the pocket in the playoffs and that's what Kansas City
(13:28):
forever had made him do, that's what other teams have
made him do. So again, if you're going to use
that argument, and I'm not saying you Dan, I'm saying
if people are going to use the argument of who
you are in the playoffs is who you really are?
I think Lamar then falls way short of the MVP status,
much like Darnold last night felt way short of this
(13:50):
season's possible MVP status.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
This has a lot of same energy vibes because I
just I don't think it's fair to compare Sam Donald
to Lamar Jackson. I don't think it's fair to Lamar Jackson.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
It's not. They're not that. Lamar Jackson's far more accomplished
and a far better quarterback. Right, yes, but but again again,
if we're if we're comparing brass tacks.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's the argument I know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And I get it's a debate tactic that I was
taught when I was at Tustin High School and I
use it all the time, and it is a good argument,
which is like, hey, if this is true, then this
must be true. If it's the old transfer property, if
equals being equalc, then a must equal.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
See treat everybody fair, but you don't have to treat
them the same. That's how I look at it, Like,
in terms of how we're looking at it, I know
what you're you're trying to get at, and to me,
it just screams of I can read it on social media,
it's not even on my screen. Have that same energy
that you have for Sam Donald with Lamar Jackson if
(14:56):
it happens. But I just don't think there. I think
it's apples to oranges.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Well, I'm they're the same draft class. Lamar Jackson's been
far better as a regular season quarterback. Now, He's also
played for a far better organization, played for only one
organization the whole time, and up until this last year,
with a far better defense than he's ever played with
so outside the Niners last year. So I think it's
an interesting discussion. Even if I admit I was a
(15:22):
bigger Sam Donald fan. Lamar Jackson's been the way better
NFL quarterback, but there's some context that belongs to it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Thanks for listening to The Doug Gotleb Show podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Be sure to catch us live every weekday three to
five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find
your local station for The Doug Gottlieb Show at Fox
Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every day
on the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR. Let me get
John millcoff on. He of course hosts Three and Out
that's on the Volume podcast network. He joins us in
(15:51):
The Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports Radio. What percentage
of blame for the Vikings offensive of implosion would you
put on Sam Donald.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Obviously he'd bears some blame, But to me, in a
playoff scenario where your coach is as highly regarded as
Kevin O'Connell and he's the offensive play caller, I think
he did an extremely poor job because last week he
had the blueprint where his quarterback kind of got pretty
rattled by pressure. And it was clear early on that
(16:30):
the Vikings offensive line, and in fairness to them, their
star left tackle Towars Knee has been out, so they
got backups in there and they were getting overwhelmed. Well,
the easiest way to help out a quarterback, and Donald
looked again a little like the Lions game, it wasn't
as much overthrown guys. So as the game went on
he definitely did. It was like he was just holding
onto the ball. The easiest way to help him out,
(16:52):
like in your sport, get to the get to the basket,
get some freebieus gets out run the ball and sometimes
kept and O'Connell acts like, you know, he's played mad,
and then he throws it all the time. And that's
what they had done throughout the season and it works,
but in this specific game, it was clear you're getting
your guy's getting pressured. He doesn't look right, and akers
(17:14):
busted a big run. What's his name, Kieren william or
not Kieren Williams on the rams, but Aaron Jones, I think,
had like a thirteen yard run. So they had a
couple explosive runs. But the moment on my first down,
he runs the ball and they gained one yard. He
was locked to throw at the next two plays and
mcveigh's guy, Chris Shula was just all over him. So
(17:35):
I listen, everyone's gonna, you know, take a dump on
Sam Narl and I get it, he's an easy one.
But I bet Kevin O'Connell just refused to run the
ball in the first half when the game was still closed.
Now in the second half, but I think, you know,
Lafleur's Kyle's you know, he's much more like McVeigh. But
McVeigh has these moments where he's like, last night, I'll
(17:58):
just be physical and we'll keep even in their past,
the game was relatively simple around the line of scrimmage.
Let's face, Kevin O'Connell's got like some Philadelphia Andy Reid.
He wants to throw bombs and that got him in
trouble last night because his offensive line was getting warped
and his quarterback was kind of resorting back to and
I think a lot of guys resort back to this.
(18:19):
When you start getting hit, it really rattles you.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, nobody likes to get hit.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
The other Here's the other thing, Doug one conversation is like, Okay,
let's just let's Sam walk or whatever, go to JJ.
Kevin O'Connell, like we just discussed, is a he loves
to pass the ball. JJ McCarthy's college career was defined
by a guy who did not depend on him passing
the ball and running the ball and playing defense. That
(18:48):
is not how Kevin O'Connell likes to coach. So you're
going to bring this guy off an injury into an
offense that let's face that he wants to throw at
thirty five plus times a game and throw deep down
the field. So I think it's a pretty bold move
to just say, okay, we'll go to JJ, which I
would say is definitely on the table now, and think
that it's going to be a seamless transition.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Okay, what about what about Justin Herbert. There's a lot
of criticism of Herbert after his playoff performance. How valid
is that criticism?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah, to me, that's one that you just go, Okay,
he had a really bad game. Balls were flying on him.
The one that he overthrew McConkie wasn't even that close.
That's just a killer path in a moment where it
just it just can't really happen. But you know, he
didn't play well. But I thought Joe Allt was kind
of getting worked and in sareness, like he's going up
(19:44):
against Will Anderson, a high end top three pick, and
Danelle Hunter, who they gave a two year contract to
and literally guaranteed every penny at fifty million dollars total.
So it's like that's that's a really really tough matchup.
The other thing with the Texans, you know CJ. Stroud
looked awful as well, and then that moment that that
(20:05):
that snap, you know, he missed the snap and then
he made that crazy play. He kind of turned back
into last year's But it's not we acted. I bet
on the Texans in that game because I was like,
road playoff games are difficult, and the Chargers they do
have to win a lot of games, you know, nineteen
to seventeen to go on the road against the team
(20:27):
that if the quarterback just plays, Okay, they do have
a lot of high end out two pass rushers. Singley's
a stud, Mixon's a really good player. Obviously, Nico Collins, well,
he think of what the Chargers would do for Nico Collins.
And the other thing is, and this is where coaching
like this is the playoffs. Like McVeigh worked Kevin O'Connell,
which isn't that big of a deal. Mcveagh's won eight
(20:47):
playoff games. He's kind of good at what he's doing.
He's probably gonna be a Hall of Famer one day.
And Demiko Ryans, you know, like the younger version of Rabel.
He's really good. So I think we act it looks
he played that. I'm not trying to make an excuse here,
but they lost to a team that the coaches viewed
really highly. The quarterback went second overall. Like they lost
(21:09):
to a team we didn't play well throughout the season
but won a playoff game last year and one another
playoff game this year. It's not like some random little
engine that could No.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
No, I think it's a great point.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Like c J.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Stroud didn't have a particularly good year right for a
myriad of reasons, didn't have a particular year. Justin Herbert
I thought had an outstanding year all things considered, But
when they played a head to head, Justin Herbert didn't
play well. CJ. Stroud played okay, and all the criticism
on Justin Herbert is like, okay, but the seventeen games,
what do they buy? Okay? So where are you? Dan?
(21:41):
Byron and I had this discussion to start to show
how much do we value how you play in the
in the playoffs in a one game scenario versus how
you play in the regular season.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Well, I think it gets the overreaction. And I'm guilty
of this too, because you know, I was thinking about
this state while our weekend was kind of boring. And
you can't escape a boring game because it's the only
game on television where when we turn on games on
Sunday morning, there are anywhere from what five to eight
games going at one time. So if you're having a
(22:13):
bad game or just playing in kind of a sleepy game,
people will change the channel and watch other games or
have the four blocks on and not focus on you,
where you kind of just get exposed in the sense
of and you know, the Chargers aren't the Chiefs or
the you know, the forty nine Ers or even the
Jets where it feels like they're on national television all
the time, at least this year. They will be next year.
So I think people just he's a polarizing player because
(22:38):
he's considered part of the Big five and the reality
is he's the fifth guy and he's not on the
level of the top four. And like, I will defend
him that if he was available, relatives, do all the
other quarterbacks not named Burrow, Allen, Mahomes and Lamar, Like,
I promise you these gms and these coaches would would
(22:59):
drive quarterback to Los Angeles to make that trade.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Stett Gottlief show here on Fox Sports Radio. If you
were the Dallas Cowboys, who would you hire?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, good question. Uh, I think your options are kind
of limited. I mean that's why I think Dion like
it's not fake, like he's going I know, he puts
out the statement yesterday, but he's gonna be tucked like
it's this isn't gonna die. Mike Zimmers this guy too.
I know, I thought headline Today's Demmer might retire but
that's like one of his like close friends, you know,
(23:32):
coached him in the nineties for the Cowboys, so pretty
easily transition to keep him a defensive coordinator. I'm not
the biggest Pat Schirmer guy, but he has an NFL
coordinator as Zoc. The boom you bring him down, I
would imagine Kellen Moore will be very much in the mix.
I mean, that was a big time Jerry guy, and
it's kind of a double whammy. If, especially the Eagles
(23:52):
win again this week, you kind of steal him back
from your division rival. But I think when you look
at the names, it's hard to think. I'm like, yeah,
I don't know Jerry's gonna do that. He's probably more likely,
based on his history, to just hire Kellen Moore than
he would be Deon Sanders or even Belichick. And listen,
people can poo poo, you know the reports, and I
(24:13):
see Lombardy going back with pro football talk, But I
would say non game day with Bill, his the fighting
attribute as like a as a coach was how ruthless
and cutthroat he is. So this notion that he's going
to have this crazy, crazy loyalty to North Carolina if
he was like, damn un coach cowboys. I mean, have
(24:34):
you guys watched the last twenty five years of his career.
I mean he got rid of Tom Brady, let alone
other pro bowler, star players and you know, like his
best friends in the coaching business. He just cut off
if he starts hating you. So I would say everything
is on the table with Bill, even though I still
have a hard time seeing Jerry do that. But at
a two years old, I don't know if you saw
(24:56):
the report. One thing that father Jerry was kind of
the cowboy fans become an apathetic with Mike McCarthy. So
that's where I think Dion might might have some juice.
And Belichick obviously would too. Just give you a big,
a big headline that right or wrong, We know Jerry
likes that.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yep, he definitely does like that. Joining you the best man,
Thanks for joining us. Look forward to talking to you
as the playoffs roll on. Remember three and ounce the podcast.
It's on the Volume podcast Network. Thanks for our guest John.
Thanks for listening to the Doug Gottleeb Show podcast. Be
sure to catch us live every weekday three to five
Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your
local station for the Doug Gottlieb Show at Fox Sports
(25:35):
Radio dot com, or stream us live every day on
the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR. Well, but you Dog
Gotleep Show Fox Sports Radio. I hope you're having a
great day. The Doug Gotleep Show broadcast live from the
tyrech dot Com studios tyrt dot com. Woull we get
there on match selection, fast free shipping, free road as protection,
over ten thousand recommended stallars, tyright dot com sway tire
buying should be welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome in. It feels
(26:01):
like this is like a yearly debate that we've had
for the past couple of years. The Pittsburgh Steelers have
had three coaches in the modern era, right three coaches
Chuck Nole, Bill Kower, Mike Tomlin, and Mike Tomlin continued
his streak of not having a losing season. But they
(26:23):
collapsed down the stretch and they played good teams down
the stretch and were summarily dusted out of the playoffs
by the Baltimore Ravens. We'll leading some to go. Hey,
time for a change. You know, sometimes messages just go stale.
There was a certain lifeless nature to the Steelers, and
some of it. Some people will blame it on Tomlin
(26:46):
on his act getting stale. I have a different perspective
on it. I'll share with you one second. Here's Mike
Tomlin earlier today Exit Interviews talking about the criticism of
his job.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
But I understand the nature of what it is that
we do, the attention and criticism that comes with it.
As a matter of fact, I embrace it, to be
quite honest with you, I enjoy the urgency that comes
with what I do and what we do.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I don't make.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Excuses for failure.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I own it.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
But I also feel like I'm capable, and so as
long as I'm afforded an opportunity to do that, I
will continue. But I certainly understand their frustrations, and probably
more importantly than that, I share.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It stug Gotlieb show here on Fox Sports Radio. Okay,
So I'll just give you my perspective. I don't think
the lifelessness of the Pittsburgh Steelers is based upon a
lack of quality messaging or reception to the messaging of
(27:43):
Mike Tomlin. They don't have a quarterback good enough to
win them games, and we discussed this at length. Their
quarterback play wasn't good enough in the regular season, why
would anybody think it'd be good enough in the postseason.
I mean, really, Ben Roethlisberger's last year, they haven't had
good enough quarterback play. And it's nothing short of a
(28:06):
miracle and the best most really the most competitive division
in football. And I know the Browns weren't good this year,
but the Steelers were good, the Bengals were talented, especially offensively,
and the Ravens are always very good. To consistently find
a way to be out an above five hundred, especially
with how very average for the last half decade, maybe
(28:28):
below average the quarterback play has been. I think that's
a sign of great coaching. I get it. I understand
everybody has. It comes to a run, comes to an end.
But considering they had Justin Fields, who nobody really wanted
in the NFL to be a starter, and Russell Wilson,
(28:48):
who nobody wanted an NFL to be a starter, and
those are his two starters this year, and he found
a way to win, you know, double digit games. I
just have a hard time finding fault with Mike Tomlin.
His coaching staff and his messaging, get a better quarterback,
and let's really see what he can do. I feel
like George Pickens is a malcontent because of his act.
(29:09):
I actually understand some of it because he hasn't played
with a good quarterback. But George Pickens is a mal content.
I don't know. I'm just I'm not a move on
from Tomlin guy. And I do understand the idea of, hey,
well maybe if he goes somewhere else Raiders Cowboys, he
gets a fresh start. I don't think that's the Steeler way.
(29:31):
I think find problem, fixed problem. That's the Steeler way,
and I think they keep him as I think they should.
You can't judge Mike Tomlin on his aptitude as a
coach when he has a starting, starting quarterback in the
last four years that are below the level of everybody
else in the playoffs, and that's what he's had, that's
(29:54):
what he's dealt with. You can tell me that Russell
Wilson's been to two Super Bowls, won a Super Bowl
before it for the Denver thing, was a Hall of famer.
I don't know if he's a Hall of Famer now,
but the fact is nobody wanted Russell Wilson, Nobody got
bought out and working for peanuts. The Broncos are paying that,
(30:17):
paying for him to play for the Steelers, and they're
all sitting there nodding their head as they drafted bow Nicks,
who's really good and Russell Wilson just doesn't have it anymore. Bayer,
do you believe that it's time to move on for
my comma?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, Doug, I am happy to tell you that on
December fifteenth of twenty twenty four, I proclaim Mike Tomlin
to be the NFL Coach of the Year. They lost
to the Eagles that day and they didn't win a
game the rest of the season, so maybe I didn't
have the greatest timing in the world with that proclamation.
(30:51):
I find it very I find the situation obviously unique,
but also very difficult. I am on the side now
that I do think a change needs to be made.
I feel that your arguments are completely one hundred percent fair,
and I think any knee jerk organization would have fired
(31:12):
Tomlin three years ago. If that was the case, that's
not who the Steelers are. You mentioned the loyalty with
Chuck Noll and Bill Kauer. They're just not going to
do that. And I think that they recognize that they
haven't served Mike Tomlin in the best way at the
quarterback position. So I understand all of that, but I
look at it as a fan, as a fan of
(31:33):
the Pittsburgh Steelers, and for as great as their glory
days were, and let's be honest, a lot of the
fans today were enjoying those glory days when they were
a kid. I know what it was like with the Seahawks,
and when the Seahawks through the interception at the one
yard line to lose Super Bowl forty nine to the
New England Patriots. It was year after year after year
(31:55):
of just mediocre miss they were good enough to make
the playoffs. There was maybe one year where I thought
maybe they had a chance, but they were never like
a top team in the National Football League despite what
their record said. They had a twelve and four season
during the COVID year, but they lost in the wild
card round to the Rams. It was Dougie was so stale,
(32:17):
and so when Pete Carroll was let go last year.
I don't know if this past year rivaled any of
those other seasons, but it was a fresh start. And
I think that if you're a Steelers fan, as much
as you love Mike Tomlin and love everything with it
as a fan, you probably just want a fresh start.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
The question is if you're gonna let Mike Tomlin go,
who replaces him? Sure, because it is very much like
a new pope, because it's not an organization that if
you make the wrong call, they're going to make a
change in a year or two.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It'd be the most coveted job in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, And I guess the real question is,
you know, if you're going to do that, you better
have a real plan for who that's going to be.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But I think if let's just say Ben Johnson is
the top guy, because if that stealer's job opens up,
absolutely I'm looking at that job for just every reason
that there is. Even though there isn't a quarterback there,
Maybe there's a way where you work and figure it
out how to deal with it. The other problem with it,
(33:28):
Doug is you said everything was accurate. The tough part
about it that I see is it looks like they're
addressing their quarterback problem by taking Kenny Pickett in the
first round like they did a few years ago. It's
just not I think that realistic to think that taking
(33:50):
a quarterback like at twenty is going to help or
is going to be a game changer. I'm not saying
that every quarterback in the National FOOTBA League has to
be a top one, two three pick. You move on
from him more quickly. There's it's honestly more of a
crap shoot. I think what you would see in the
National Football League. They may be a team that just
needs to pick in the top five once.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
No, yeah, they have that. They have the problem that
the Packers had, and that's why the Packers moved up
to draft Jordan love right because they felt like they
will never be in the top five. So there's a
guy who we felt like slipped and we can sit
for a couple of years and develop. And that's what
the Packers did, and Steet has never been able to
do that. I completely agree with you. And now it
(34:33):
feels like they're on the retread thing, which they were
on the retread thing before with Tommy Maddox right at
the Tommy maximum before they got Ben Roethlisberger. But they're
in that quarterback a basins. I do understand, like you
don't want this to be the that Don Shula era
was ended much like this as well. Right like Don Shula,
(34:53):
that thing was definitely a whimper at the end, and
many people considered Don Shula the greatest coach of all
time before you know, the last couple of years. And
for Tomlin, it's not crazy to think, hey, maybe he
needs a fresh starter, or maybe do TV for a
year and then pick it out, or maybe go to
the Cowboys. But I don't know. Again, I know, you
(35:13):
can't keep a guy in a job just because you
fear trying to replace that guy. But this is a
place where they don't just replace coaches. And I think
you know, you have a new, a fairly new gentle
manager who his signature moment is picking a quarterback who's
no longer on the roster now plays for the Eagles
as their backup. And I'm sure there's a little gun
(35:35):
shyness in that. Do we really want to make that change? Since, yeah,
we got to pick a new coach and this way,
you know, if nothing else, we had the loyalty and
we know we're gonna win ten games.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Here's my other thing with Tom and I'm not saying
that dismissing him as fair or treating him well or right.
But I'm gonna have Sam play with Kirk kerb Street
again said on the broadcast on Saturday. Jason Stewart played
it yesterday in Our Love and Hate. But for those
that missed it, I think this is pretty intriguing. This
(36:08):
was Kirk kerb Street's analysis on the Amazon broadcast.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
A game like this a chess match.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
It's a cliche, but this is a chess matcher two
grand masters.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
If I were a Steelers fan, I think that we're concerned.
Me just watching this first half, you're in the post Cason,
You're getting dominated. I don't see any fight. I don't
see any any pushback. It's one thing that lose XO
is against a really talented of offense. But where the
hell is the fight? This is the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah,
(36:40):
there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And that is that was most concerning because I think
that's reflective of Tomlin. He's your head coach. It's Arthur
Smith's offense. It's Treel Austin's defense, even though Tomlin's the
defensive guy. If you will, it was Dick Lebo's defense
for all those years. Tomlin is the guy bringing the emotion.
Tomlin is the guy sparking a fire. And if you
(37:01):
can't to the to the point of get up for
a division rival in a wild card game and come
out flat, I just wonder on how much is Tomlin's
voice falling flat in the locker room.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I think it's fair.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
My thing is I just I think Russell Wilson has
that effect on teams. I really do. I really do.
And I could be blaming Russell Wilson for something he
has nothing to do with. But that was what it
felt like at the end of the Seahawks era. That's
what it felt like in the two years in Denver
(37:34):
where guys are just over it and when your quarterback
just doesn't he actually drives people to roll their eyes.
It's really hard for any coach, any coach, to do
anything about it. Now, think back to that last year
with the Seahawks brom when he came back from the
thumb injury. How lifeless the Seahawks were. He went very good,
(37:56):
and they weren't. They were lifeless, you know. And I mean,
I don't hate this ever say I told you so,
but I did tell you so that their quarterback was
on their roster, and I thought that was ultimately their undoing.
And you know, it's like, look at the Broncos. Had
they made some other changes, sure, but everybody believed Sean
Payton can coach, and what to do. He moved in
(38:18):
a rookie and moved out Russell Wilson and they're in
the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
It's funny because when we talk about drafting quarterbacks, so
when they drafted Ben Roethlisberger in two thousand and four,
he was eleven overall, so not a top five, but
eleven overall. I can remember if he was ten or
eleven that year, and it was eleventh. The only time
since then that they have picked lower was in twenty
nineteen when they picked tenth, so one spot lower. Otherwise,
(38:43):
it's been a bunch of twenty two, twenty five, seventeen, fifteen.
One year they took Kenny Pickett at twenty, they had
twenty this past year. It's just a bunch of that.
And you know, we saw six quarterbacks go in the
in the draft in the first twelve picks last year,
and Steelers said no chance at any of them.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You know, it's interesting, what if I told you that,
like the Ben Roethlisberger story will probably never happen again. Remember,
like he started only one year in high school. He
was a tight end before that, but three years at
my Ohio and then he went pro his third year.
But now after the first year, but definitely after the
second year, he hits a transfer portal when he goes
(39:28):
to a major school and he probably stays in school
a couple ext of years. Yeah, and then the idea
that a guy that big and that strong goes at
eleventh in the draft like he did in two thousand
and three. Yeah, they just they don't. They don't last
that long in the draft. It's really really interesting. I
mean that said brock Purty, Mister irrelevant was around the
(39:49):
draft a couple of years ago, and here he is,
but again before the transfer portal. It's gonna be interesting
to see how many quarterbacks are built because anybody who's borderline,
anybody who's a fifth to undrafted guy is staying in
school and making way more money as a college quarterback.
So yeah, again, I'm just out of fire. Tomlin guy.
(40:10):
I have lots of friends who are Steelers people, and
they're like, over it. I just think it's the Russell
Wilson effect.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I think it's just too much to just put on
Russ's shoulders for this, like there's it's been too long. Yeah,
I felt it under the Peak Carroll era and listen,
this year, Doug was ten and seven, no different than
really any of the other Peak Carroll seasons from that
Super Bowl, but it felt different. It was new, it
(40:37):
was new people. You know, there are still mistakes. Seahawks
fired their offensive coordinator, are looking for a new one.
So it's not that everything was perfect, but it was
different and that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. And I
think as a Steelers fan, everything that has lined up
coaching wise and what has done will point to Tomlin
keeping his job. And as a fan, I think it's
probably gotten pretty stale in Pittsburgh
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlieb
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
three to five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Box Sports Radio.
Find your local station for the Doug Gottlieb Show at
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Doug Gottlieb Show, Bock Sports Radio coming to you from
(00:24):
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dot com. So a tire buying should be Hey, welcome in.
(00:45):
I need a little help and a little balance from
my good friend Dan Byer. And here's really what it
comes down to. Last night we watched the Rams just
dismantle the Vikings offensive line, their offense in general. It
was it was ugly. There's no other way around it.
(01:07):
It was just absolutely positively an ugly, ugly thing. And
we've gotten this place where, I mean, my goodness, people
are going top rope on. Three quarterbacks have lost and
not played particularly well. And those three quarterbacks now, I
guess in the public's mind are awful. And I watched
(01:30):
Sam Donald last night and then I talked to my
good friend Dania Rolovsky via text, and I just asked him,
I like, hey, what percentage of that was Donald? And
he's like, well, what percentage that was offensive line? He's
like ninety percent offensive line? And that's what I saw.
I mean, look, no quarterbacks survives that type of onslaught. None.
(01:55):
If you missed it, here's Paul Allen, voice of the
Vikings on kfan of the Vikings Radio network.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Two receivers left rams flints.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Donald gets away from it, steps up in the pocket.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
He's holding it too long.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Run just run.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Hold the twenty five yard line.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
He's sacked for a fIF time.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
All he's got to do is pull that thing down
and run and get as much positive yardage as he can.
There were five to seven yards easy there to be made.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
He saw Buffalo do this.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
To them all day long because they're not always disciplined
in their lanes. But if he pulls this thing down
right there, he has a good five seven yards, if
not more.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Right, take what's there.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Well, he was under durest the entire game the entire game.
And I know where lovesk He's a former quarterback and
a long time backup sometimes starter, and he has tendency
says to side with the quarterback. But if you ask
anybody in football, they'll say it mirror their plan mirrored
that of the Lions, and the Lions did the same
thing to Donald. And I think we're somewhere in between
(03:04):
how he was being seen and valued and some sort
of hack backup that got exposed. Like, I get it,
he wasn't particularly good. I get it he was seeing ghosts.
But I just when do we get to this place where,
I mean, you go back and you look at some
(03:26):
of these quarterbacks that have lost. And we mentioned it
yesterday with with Justin Herbert, Like Justin Herbert a great year,
He's a good quarterback, didn't play particularly well. Offensive line
also didn't protect all that well. But if you go
to social media or go to media, oh my gosh,
top rope in terms of negativity. Now there is a
(03:50):
part of it. There is a part of it that
needs to be discussed. Because I've brought this up and
I haven't heard anywhere else. You know, people talk about
the n and you know the Packers losing, the Vikings losing,
and we'll see what the Lions do. It's important to
point out that what place you finished the year before
(04:13):
does determine the level of your schedule for the next year.
But I think I'm the only one who said this
on national radio and national TV. That division, the NFC
North crossed over against the NFC West and the AFC South,
the NFC West and the AFC South. So if you
(04:35):
ask yourself, honestly, what's the weakest division in football, you
would say the NFC North and the AFC South. And
oh yeah, by the way, the Vikings lost to the
Rams twice, so this shouldn't have been a surprise. They
had a good beat on what the Vikings did, and
(04:55):
the Vikings either Sam Darnold, Kevin O'Connell, their offensive line
was unable to adjust. But again, I'm I get that
we have this weird thing with losing playoff quarterbacks where
somehow now they just suck because they didn't have a
(05:16):
particularly good game under duress, and you could track it
like it it. I remember Kyler Murray a couple of
years ago when he lost to the Rams. Part of
it is the Rams are really well coached, and the
Rams defensive line is actually very very good, and part
of it is Sam Donald hadn't played at that level
and his offensive line hadn't played at that level, and
(05:38):
they all got a little bit exposed. But we're in
the everybody wants to throw the baby out with the
bathwater thing and I'm not there byer, Where are you
on the the supreme negativity we've seen in some of
these losing quarterbacks.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, I don't think it's. I think that, like the
Justin Herbert situation is different from what it is with
Sam Donald. And so the conversation that we had that
you had yesterday about Justin Herbert, I think is completely
different than the one we're having about Sam Donald. And
we've had negative conversations about quarterbacks. In fact, I can
(06:16):
almost bet that coming up on Monday, it was going
to say a week for Monday, coming up on Monday,
there will be a conversation either about Josh Allen or
Lamar Jackson and whoever loses that game. Yes, and that
is automatic book it. Lets let's put it down right now,
because whoever doesn't win that game, we.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Just we just need to write negative quarterback conversation. Yes,
in the a's of each hour of the show, and
only thing we need to slide in is is it
Lamar Jackson or is it Josh Allen.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, and that's not fair to either either player. I
think that the Herbert conversation I thought was unfair. Now
it doesn't matter in the world of social media. I
think the Donald the conversation was just entirely in. The
whole situation is entirely unique. And so I'm willing to
give leeway to Justin Herbert because I felt like I've
(07:11):
seen it more from Justin Herbert. But I don't think
that Sam Donald, unfortunately is given the same leeway for
a variety of reasons. And so that's why I think
last night that the criticism almost in a way is
or just at least the conversation Doug. I don't even
want to say the criticism the conversation about Donald is
(07:32):
different than everything and anything else because of what they
did in the draft, because of what he has done
and then what has transpired over the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I would agree they're very unique. It's a very unique story,
and I just I think we're holding the last five
years against him in one game and it's like you're
waiting for You're waiting for something bad to happen. It
honestly feels like what it's like to be a Charger
fan in general, right, just waiting on something bad to happen,
(08:02):
and in the second something bad happens or you gotta
have bag.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Like ah ah.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I don't think I've ever and you tell me if
I'm wrong, because you've been with me now for seven
and a half years. I don't remember ever this year
saying he's an elite top five quarterback. What I've said
is he obviously was super talented. I've always loved the
guy personally and how he plays, and if it's me,
(08:31):
I would rather him be my starter at least I
know his flaws. Then JJ McCarthy, who I have no
idea what he looks like as an NFL quarterback.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Correct. I don't agree with your assessment, but I think
that your assessment of the situation is fair. I look
at it and say, I know Sam Darnold's ceiling, and
so while I'm not taking the previous five years and
holding before holding it against him, I feel that there
is evidence enough to get an idea of who Sam
Donald is and what Sam Donald is, even if these
(09:03):
last eighteen games that he's played have been mostly very
very good MVP sort of candidate. My takeaway just to
tell you is that to your point about the schedule,
it's correct, but it's that Sam Donald isn't good enough
or special enough or will max out as a player
(09:23):
that is enough to get you over the top in
that situation. And that's why I think that you at
least owe it to yourself. Whether JJ McCarthy is or
isn't the answer, you at least owe it to yourself
to see that through. Since he used the first round
pick on him.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Well that's fair. I don't know if you have to
do it next year. Again, it all depends on how
much Sam Donald wants in order to stay. But again
it's a fair thing to look at. And I obviously
you're holding his past against him, but holding his past
against him is just Hey, you feel like you have
(09:58):
a better gauge because you have more games, you know
you have you have more games to kind of go by, right,
that's the we have way more tape on him. You
know who Sam Donald is. That's that's kind of the
overwhelming statement. And you feel like that got exposed last night. Yeah, yes, yes, Okay,
I'm going to disagree, and I would if I'm the Vikings,
(10:22):
I try and get him on the cheap, relatively cheap,
and then I see if it organically becomes JJ McCarthy.
But I know I have a guy who can carry
us through the regular season. Okay, so let me help
you with another argument.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Can I just say something on this? It's actually a question.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Do you think that another NFL team will pay more
to Sam Donald or offers Sam Donald more than what
the Vikings will this offseason?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Depends what the Vikings offer.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I think it doesn't even matter. I think they will.
I think that Donald, to your point, Doug has shown
enough that he is an option for another team out there,
and the Viking, I don't think, because of that, will
have any motivation to try to match because the price
is probably just going to be higher than what they
obviously just paid for him.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think he can hit the market.
If he hits the market, then he's going to be
gone and somebody will pay a little bit more. Okay,
So can I here Here's what I like to do. Now,
have we talked about this that I was on the
debate in the debate club when I was in.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
High school years ago.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yes, okay, so I was in the debate club model
United Nations, and I've done this for a lot of
debates that if this is true, then this must be
true as well. Correct. Okay, So again it's a debate style.
So I do think that one thing that most people believe,
(11:45):
and I do think it's mostly true, is what you
are in the playoffs is who you really are as quarterback.
Who you are in the playoffs is who you are
as a quarterback. It's a lot like in life people
say who you are as a drunk is who you
are underneath all the surface exterior, right, which I believe.
(12:11):
Steve Kerr says who you are as a basketball player,
how you play as basketball players, how you live your life.
I also think that's true, and I think a lot
of people believe, including NFL people, in terms of your ceiling,
how you play in the playoffs is a true determinant
to how you are in life, how you are overall
as a quarterback? Is that? Do you do you?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I don't go by that statement, I don't, but do people? Yes,
playoffs are what matter okay, so.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And Lamar Jackson was good the other day, but it
was against a foe that they should have dominated. Right,
the question becomes, if we're going to have a fair
conversation about Lamar Jackson and let's see what happens against Buffalo.
Right to this point, he is far below that of
the two time MVP status in the playoffs. And what
(13:05):
I find to be really interesting is there's a lot
of people who push back and say, like, we need
to criticize these quarterbacks because people criticize Lamar Jackson. And
I thought the criticism of Lamar Jackson was fair. That's
fair because everybody said the same thing. He's really good,
but man, he's got to throw the bell better from
the pocket in the playoffs and that's what Kansas City
(13:28):
forever had made him do, that's what other teams have
made him do. So again, if you're going to use
that argument, and I'm not saying you Dan, I'm saying
if people are going to use the argument of who
you are in the playoffs is who you really are?
I think Lamar then falls way short of the MVP status,
much like Darnold last night felt way short of this
(13:50):
season's possible MVP status.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
This has a lot of same energy vibes because I
just I don't think it's fair to compare Sam Donald
to Lamar Jackson. I don't think it's fair to Lamar Jackson.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
It's not. They're not that. Lamar Jackson's far more accomplished
and a far better quarterback. Right, yes, but but again again,
if we're if we're comparing brass tacks.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's the argument I know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And I get it's a debate tactic that I was
taught when I was at Tustin High School and I
use it all the time, and it is a good argument,
which is like, hey, if this is true, then this
must be true. If it's the old transfer property, if
equals being equalc, then a must equal.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
See treat everybody fair, but you don't have to treat
them the same. That's how I look at it, Like,
in terms of how we're looking at it, I know
what you're you're trying to get at, and to me,
it just screams of I can read it on social media,
it's not even on my screen. Have that same energy
that you have for Sam Donald with Lamar Jackson if
(14:56):
it happens. But I just don't think there. I think
it's apples to oranges.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Well, I'm they're the same draft class. Lamar Jackson's been
far better as a regular season quarterback. Now, He's also
played for a far better organization, played for only one
organization the whole time, and up until this last year,
with a far better defense than he's ever played with
so outside the Niners last year. So I think it's
an interesting discussion. Even if I admit I was a
(15:22):
bigger Sam Donald fan. Lamar Jackson's been the way better
NFL quarterback, but there's some context that belongs to it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Thanks for listening to The Doug Gotleb Show podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Be sure to catch us live every weekday three to
five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find
your local station for The Doug Gottlieb Show at Fox
Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every day
on the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR. Let me get
John millcoff on. He of course hosts Three and Out
that's on the Volume podcast network. He joins us in
(15:51):
The Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports Radio. What percentage
of blame for the Vikings offensive of implosion would you
put on Sam Donald.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Obviously he'd bears some blame, But to me, in a
playoff scenario where your coach is as highly regarded as
Kevin O'Connell and he's the offensive play caller, I think
he did an extremely poor job because last week he
had the blueprint where his quarterback kind of got pretty
rattled by pressure. And it was clear early on that
(16:30):
the Vikings offensive line, and in fairness to them, their
star left tackle Towars Knee has been out, so they
got backups in there and they were getting overwhelmed. Well,
the easiest way to help out a quarterback, and Donald
looked again a little like the Lions game, it wasn't
as much overthrown guys. So as the game went on
he definitely did. It was like he was just holding
onto the ball. The easiest way to help him out,
(16:52):
like in your sport, get to the get to the basket,
get some freebieus gets out run the ball and sometimes
kept and O'Connell acts like, you know, he's played mad,
and then he throws it all the time. And that's
what they had done throughout the season and it works,
but in this specific game, it was clear you're getting
your guy's getting pressured. He doesn't look right, and akers
(17:14):
busted a big run. What's his name, Kieren william or
not Kieren Williams on the rams, but Aaron Jones, I think,
had like a thirteen yard run. So they had a
couple explosive runs. But the moment on my first down,
he runs the ball and they gained one yard. He
was locked to throw at the next two plays and
mcveigh's guy, Chris Shula was just all over him. So
(17:35):
I listen, everyone's gonna, you know, take a dump on
Sam Narl and I get it, he's an easy one.
But I bet Kevin O'Connell just refused to run the
ball in the first half when the game was still closed.
Now in the second half, but I think, you know,
Lafleur's Kyle's you know, he's much more like McVeigh. But
McVeigh has these moments where he's like, last night, I'll
(17:58):
just be physical and we'll keep even in their past,
the game was relatively simple around the line of scrimmage.
Let's face, Kevin O'Connell's got like some Philadelphia Andy Reid.
He wants to throw bombs and that got him in
trouble last night because his offensive line was getting warped
and his quarterback was kind of resorting back to and
I think a lot of guys resort back to this.
(18:19):
When you start getting hit, it really rattles you.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, nobody likes to get hit.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
The other Here's the other thing, Doug one conversation is like, Okay,
let's just let's Sam walk or whatever, go to JJ.
Kevin O'Connell, like we just discussed, is a he loves
to pass the ball. JJ McCarthy's college career was defined
by a guy who did not depend on him passing
the ball and running the ball and playing defense. That
(18:48):
is not how Kevin O'Connell likes to coach. So you're
going to bring this guy off an injury into an
offense that let's face that he wants to throw at
thirty five plus times a game and throw deep down
the field. So I think it's a pretty bold move
to just say, okay, we'll go to JJ, which I
would say is definitely on the table now, and think
that it's going to be a seamless transition.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Okay, what about what about Justin Herbert. There's a lot
of criticism of Herbert after his playoff performance. How valid
is that criticism?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah, to me, that's one that you just go, Okay,
he had a really bad game. Balls were flying on him.
The one that he overthrew McConkie wasn't even that close.
That's just a killer path in a moment where it
just it just can't really happen. But you know, he
didn't play well. But I thought Joe Allt was kind
of getting worked and in sareness, like he's going up
(19:44):
against Will Anderson, a high end top three pick, and
Danelle Hunter, who they gave a two year contract to
and literally guaranteed every penny at fifty million dollars total.
So it's like that's that's a really really tough matchup.
The other thing with the Texans, you know CJ. Stroud
looked awful as well, and then that moment that that
(20:05):
that snap, you know, he missed the snap and then
he made that crazy play. He kind of turned back
into last year's But it's not we acted. I bet
on the Texans in that game because I was like,
road playoff games are difficult, and the Chargers they do
have to win a lot of games, you know, nineteen
to seventeen to go on the road against the team
(20:27):
that if the quarterback just plays, Okay, they do have
a lot of high end out two pass rushers. Singley's
a stud, Mixon's a really good player. Obviously, Nico Collins, well,
he think of what the Chargers would do for Nico Collins.
And the other thing is, and this is where coaching
like this is the playoffs. Like McVeigh worked Kevin O'Connell,
which isn't that big of a deal. Mcveagh's won eight
(20:47):
playoff games. He's kind of good at what he's doing.
He's probably gonna be a Hall of Famer one day.
And Demiko Ryans, you know, like the younger version of Rabel.
He's really good. So I think we act it looks
he played that. I'm not trying to make an excuse here,
but they lost to a team that the coaches viewed
really highly. The quarterback went second overall. Like they lost
(21:09):
to a team we didn't play well throughout the season
but won a playoff game last year and one another
playoff game this year. It's not like some random little
engine that could No.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
No, I think it's a great point.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Like c J.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Stroud didn't have a particularly good year right for a
myriad of reasons, didn't have a particular year. Justin Herbert
I thought had an outstanding year all things considered, But
when they played a head to head, Justin Herbert didn't
play well. CJ. Stroud played okay, and all the criticism
on Justin Herbert is like, okay, but the seventeen games,
what do they buy? Okay? So where are you? Dan?
(21:41):
Byron and I had this discussion to start to show
how much do we value how you play in the
in the playoffs in a one game scenario versus how
you play in the regular season.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Well, I think it gets the overreaction. And I'm guilty
of this too, because you know, I was thinking about
this state while our weekend was kind of boring. And
you can't escape a boring game because it's the only
game on television where when we turn on games on
Sunday morning, there are anywhere from what five to eight
games going at one time. So if you're having a
(22:13):
bad game or just playing in kind of a sleepy game,
people will change the channel and watch other games or
have the four blocks on and not focus on you,
where you kind of just get exposed in the sense
of and you know, the Chargers aren't the Chiefs or
the you know, the forty nine Ers or even the
Jets where it feels like they're on national television all
the time, at least this year. They will be next year.
So I think people just he's a polarizing player because
(22:38):
he's considered part of the Big five and the reality
is he's the fifth guy and he's not on the
level of the top four. And like, I will defend
him that if he was available, relatives, do all the
other quarterbacks not named Burrow, Allen, Mahomes and Lamar, Like,
I promise you these gms and these coaches would would
(22:59):
drive quarterback to Los Angeles to make that trade.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Stett Gottlief show here on Fox Sports Radio. If you
were the Dallas Cowboys, who would you hire?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, good question. Uh, I think your options are kind
of limited. I mean that's why I think Dion like
it's not fake, like he's going I know, he puts
out the statement yesterday, but he's gonna be tucked like
it's this isn't gonna die. Mike Zimmers this guy too.
I know, I thought headline Today's Demmer might retire but
that's like one of his like close friends, you know,
(23:32):
coached him in the nineties for the Cowboys, so pretty
easily transition to keep him a defensive coordinator. I'm not
the biggest Pat Schirmer guy, but he has an NFL
coordinator as Zoc. The boom you bring him down, I
would imagine Kellen Moore will be very much in the mix.
I mean, that was a big time Jerry guy, and
it's kind of a double whammy. If, especially the Eagles
(23:52):
win again this week, you kind of steal him back
from your division rival. But I think when you look
at the names, it's hard to think. I'm like, yeah,
I don't know Jerry's gonna do that. He's probably more likely,
based on his history, to just hire Kellen Moore than
he would be Deon Sanders or even Belichick. And listen,
people can poo poo, you know the reports, and I
(24:13):
see Lombardy going back with pro football talk, But I
would say non game day with Bill, his the fighting
attribute as like a as a coach was how ruthless
and cutthroat he is. So this notion that he's going
to have this crazy, crazy loyalty to North Carolina if
he was like, damn un coach cowboys. I mean, have
(24:34):
you guys watched the last twenty five years of his career.
I mean he got rid of Tom Brady, let alone
other pro bowler, star players and you know, like his
best friends in the coaching business. He just cut off
if he starts hating you. So I would say everything
is on the table with Bill, even though I still
have a hard time seeing Jerry do that. But at
a two years old, I don't know if you saw
(24:56):
the report. One thing that father Jerry was kind of
the cowboy fans become an apathetic with Mike McCarthy. So
that's where I think Dion might might have some juice.
And Belichick obviously would too. Just give you a big,
a big headline that right or wrong, We know Jerry
likes that.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yep, he definitely does like that. Joining you the best man,
Thanks for joining us. Look forward to talking to you
as the playoffs roll on. Remember three and ounce the podcast.
It's on the Volume podcast Network. Thanks for our guest John.
Thanks for listening to the Doug Gottleeb Show podcast. Be
sure to catch us live every weekday three to five
Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your
local station for the Doug Gottlieb Show at Fox Sports
(25:35):
Radio dot com, or stream us live every day on
the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR. Well, but you Dog
Gotleep Show Fox Sports Radio. I hope you're having a
great day. The Doug Gotleep Show broadcast live from the
tyrech dot Com studios tyrt dot com. Woull we get
there on match selection, fast free shipping, free road as protection,
over ten thousand recommended stallars, tyright dot com sway tire
buying should be welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome in. It feels
(26:01):
like this is like a yearly debate that we've had
for the past couple of years. The Pittsburgh Steelers have
had three coaches in the modern era, right three coaches
Chuck Nole, Bill Kower, Mike Tomlin, and Mike Tomlin continued
his streak of not having a losing season. But they
(26:23):
collapsed down the stretch and they played good teams down
the stretch and were summarily dusted out of the playoffs
by the Baltimore Ravens. We'll leading some to go. Hey,
time for a change. You know, sometimes messages just go stale.
There was a certain lifeless nature to the Steelers, and
some of it. Some people will blame it on Tomlin
(26:46):
on his act getting stale. I have a different perspective
on it. I'll share with you one second. Here's Mike
Tomlin earlier today Exit Interviews talking about the criticism of
his job.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
But I understand the nature of what it is that
we do, the attention and criticism that comes with it.
As a matter of fact, I embrace it, to be
quite honest with you, I enjoy the urgency that comes
with what I do and what we do.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I don't make.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Excuses for failure.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I own it.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
But I also feel like I'm capable, and so as
long as I'm afforded an opportunity to do that, I
will continue. But I certainly understand their frustrations, and probably
more importantly than that, I share.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It stug Gotlieb show here on Fox Sports Radio. Okay,
So I'll just give you my perspective. I don't think
the lifelessness of the Pittsburgh Steelers is based upon a
lack of quality messaging or reception to the messaging of
(27:43):
Mike Tomlin. They don't have a quarterback good enough to
win them games, and we discussed this at length. Their
quarterback play wasn't good enough in the regular season, why
would anybody think it'd be good enough in the postseason.
I mean, really, Ben Roethlisberger's last year, they haven't had
good enough quarterback play. And it's nothing short of a
(28:06):
miracle and the best most really the most competitive division
in football. And I know the Browns weren't good this year,
but the Steelers were good, the Bengals were talented, especially offensively,
and the Ravens are always very good. To consistently find
a way to be out an above five hundred, especially
with how very average for the last half decade, maybe
(28:28):
below average the quarterback play has been. I think that's
a sign of great coaching. I get it. I understand
everybody has. It comes to a run, comes to an end.
But considering they had Justin Fields, who nobody really wanted
in the NFL to be a starter, and Russell Wilson,
(28:48):
who nobody wanted an NFL to be a starter, and
those are his two starters this year, and he found
a way to win, you know, double digit games. I
just have a hard time finding fault with Mike Tomlin.
His coaching staff and his messaging, get a better quarterback,
and let's really see what he can do. I feel
like George Pickens is a malcontent because of his act.
(29:09):
I actually understand some of it because he hasn't played
with a good quarterback. But George Pickens is a mal content.
I don't know. I'm just I'm not a move on
from Tomlin guy. And I do understand the idea of, hey,
well maybe if he goes somewhere else Raiders Cowboys, he
gets a fresh start. I don't think that's the Steeler way.
(29:31):
I think find problem, fixed problem. That's the Steeler way,
and I think they keep him as I think they should.
You can't judge Mike Tomlin on his aptitude as a
coach when he has a starting, starting quarterback in the
last four years that are below the level of everybody
else in the playoffs, and that's what he's had, that's
(29:54):
what he's dealt with. You can tell me that Russell
Wilson's been to two Super Bowls, won a Super Bowl
before it for the Denver thing, was a Hall of famer.
I don't know if he's a Hall of Famer now,
but the fact is nobody wanted Russell Wilson, Nobody got
bought out and working for peanuts. The Broncos are paying that,
(30:17):
paying for him to play for the Steelers, and they're
all sitting there nodding their head as they drafted bow Nicks,
who's really good and Russell Wilson just doesn't have it anymore. Bayer,
do you believe that it's time to move on for
my comma?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, Doug, I am happy to tell you that on
December fifteenth of twenty twenty four, I proclaim Mike Tomlin
to be the NFL Coach of the Year. They lost
to the Eagles that day and they didn't win a
game the rest of the season, so maybe I didn't
have the greatest timing in the world with that proclamation.
(30:51):
I find it very I find the situation obviously unique,
but also very difficult. I am on the side now
that I do think a change needs to be made.
I feel that your arguments are completely one hundred percent fair,
and I think any knee jerk organization would have fired
(31:12):
Tomlin three years ago. If that was the case, that's
not who the Steelers are. You mentioned the loyalty with
Chuck Noll and Bill Kauer. They're just not going to
do that. And I think that they recognize that they
haven't served Mike Tomlin in the best way at the
quarterback position. So I understand all of that, but I
look at it as a fan, as a fan of
(31:33):
the Pittsburgh Steelers, and for as great as their glory
days were, and let's be honest, a lot of the
fans today were enjoying those glory days when they were
a kid. I know what it was like with the Seahawks,
and when the Seahawks through the interception at the one
yard line to lose Super Bowl forty nine to the
New England Patriots. It was year after year after year
(31:55):
of just mediocre miss they were good enough to make
the playoffs. There was maybe one year where I thought
maybe they had a chance, but they were never like
a top team in the National Football League despite what
their record said. They had a twelve and four season
during the COVID year, but they lost in the wild
card round to the Rams. It was Dougie was so stale,
(32:17):
and so when Pete Carroll was let go last year.
I don't know if this past year rivaled any of
those other seasons, but it was a fresh start. And
I think that if you're a Steelers fan, as much
as you love Mike Tomlin and love everything with it
as a fan, you probably just want a fresh start.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
The question is if you're gonna let Mike Tomlin go,
who replaces him? Sure, because it is very much like
a new pope, because it's not an organization that if
you make the wrong call, they're going to make a
change in a year or two.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
It'd be the most coveted job in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, And I guess the real question is,
you know, if you're going to do that, you better
have a real plan for who that's going to be.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But I think if let's just say Ben Johnson is
the top guy, because if that stealer's job opens up,
absolutely I'm looking at that job for just every reason
that there is. Even though there isn't a quarterback there,
Maybe there's a way where you work and figure it
out how to deal with it. The other problem with it,
(33:28):
Doug is you said everything was accurate. The tough part
about it that I see is it looks like they're
addressing their quarterback problem by taking Kenny Pickett in the
first round like they did a few years ago. It's
just not I think that realistic to think that taking
(33:50):
a quarterback like at twenty is going to help or
is going to be a game changer. I'm not saying
that every quarterback in the National FOOTBA League has to
be a top one, two three pick. You move on
from him more quickly. There's it's honestly more of a
crap shoot. I think what you would see in the
National Football League. They may be a team that just
needs to pick in the top five once.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
No, yeah, they have that. They have the problem that
the Packers had, and that's why the Packers moved up
to draft Jordan love right because they felt like they
will never be in the top five. So there's a
guy who we felt like slipped and we can sit
for a couple of years and develop. And that's what
the Packers did, and Steet has never been able to
do that. I completely agree with you. And now it
(34:33):
feels like they're on the retread thing, which they were
on the retread thing before with Tommy Maddox right at
the Tommy maximum before they got Ben Roethlisberger. But they're
in that quarterback a basins. I do understand, like you
don't want this to be the that Don Shula era
was ended much like this as well. Right like Don Shula,
(34:53):
that thing was definitely a whimper at the end, and
many people considered Don Shula the greatest coach of all
time before you know, the last couple of years. And
for Tomlin, it's not crazy to think, hey, maybe he
needs a fresh starter, or maybe do TV for a
year and then pick it out, or maybe go to
the Cowboys. But I don't know. Again, I know, you
(35:13):
can't keep a guy in a job just because you
fear trying to replace that guy. But this is a
place where they don't just replace coaches. And I think
you know, you have a new, a fairly new gentle
manager who his signature moment is picking a quarterback who's
no longer on the roster now plays for the Eagles
as their backup. And I'm sure there's a little gun
(35:35):
shyness in that. Do we really want to make that change? Since, yeah,
we got to pick a new coach and this way,
you know, if nothing else, we had the loyalty and
we know we're gonna win ten games.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Here's my other thing with Tom and I'm not saying
that dismissing him as fair or treating him well or right.
But I'm gonna have Sam play with Kirk kerb Street
again said on the broadcast on Saturday. Jason Stewart played
it yesterday in Our Love and Hate. But for those
that missed it, I think this is pretty intriguing. This
(36:08):
was Kirk kerb Street's analysis on the Amazon broadcast.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
A game like this a chess match.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
It's a cliche, but this is a chess matcher two
grand masters.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
If I were a Steelers fan, I think that we're concerned.
Me just watching this first half, you're in the post Cason,
You're getting dominated. I don't see any fight. I don't
see any any pushback. It's one thing that lose XO
is against a really talented of offense. But where the
hell is the fight? This is the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah,
(36:40):
there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And that is that was most concerning because I think
that's reflective of Tomlin. He's your head coach. It's Arthur
Smith's offense. It's Treel Austin's defense, even though Tomlin's the
defensive guy. If you will, it was Dick Lebo's defense
for all those years. Tomlin is the guy bringing the emotion.
Tomlin is the guy sparking a fire. And if you
(37:01):
can't to the to the point of get up for
a division rival in a wild card game and come
out flat, I just wonder on how much is Tomlin's
voice falling flat in the locker room.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I think it's fair.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
My thing is I just I think Russell Wilson has
that effect on teams. I really do. I really do.
And I could be blaming Russell Wilson for something he
has nothing to do with. But that was what it
felt like at the end of the Seahawks era. That's
what it felt like in the two years in Denver
(37:34):
where guys are just over it and when your quarterback
just doesn't he actually drives people to roll their eyes.
It's really hard for any coach, any coach, to do
anything about it. Now, think back to that last year
with the Seahawks brom when he came back from the
thumb injury. How lifeless the Seahawks were. He went very good,
(37:56):
and they weren't. They were lifeless, you know. And I mean,
I don't hate this ever say I told you so,
but I did tell you so that their quarterback was
on their roster, and I thought that was ultimately their undoing.
And you know, it's like, look at the Broncos. Had
they made some other changes, sure, but everybody believed Sean
Payton can coach, and what to do. He moved in
(38:18):
a rookie and moved out Russell Wilson and they're in
the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
It's funny because when we talk about drafting quarterbacks, so
when they drafted Ben Roethlisberger in two thousand and four,
he was eleven overall, so not a top five, but
eleven overall. I can remember if he was ten or
eleven that year, and it was eleventh. The only time
since then that they have picked lower was in twenty
nineteen when they picked tenth, so one spot lower. Otherwise,
(38:43):
it's been a bunch of twenty two, twenty five, seventeen, fifteen.
One year they took Kenny Pickett at twenty, they had
twenty this past year. It's just a bunch of that.
And you know, we saw six quarterbacks go in the
in the draft in the first twelve picks last year,
and Steelers said no chance at any of them.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You know, it's interesting, what if I told you that,
like the Ben Roethlisberger story will probably never happen again. Remember,
like he started only one year in high school. He
was a tight end before that, but three years at
my Ohio and then he went pro his third year.
But now after the first year, but definitely after the
second year, he hits a transfer portal when he goes
(39:28):
to a major school and he probably stays in school
a couple ext of years. Yeah, and then the idea
that a guy that big and that strong goes at
eleventh in the draft like he did in two thousand
and three. Yeah, they just they don't. They don't last
that long in the draft. It's really really interesting. I
mean that said brock Purty, Mister irrelevant was around the
(39:49):
draft a couple of years ago, and here he is,
but again before the transfer portal. It's gonna be interesting
to see how many quarterbacks are built because anybody who's borderline,
anybody who's a fifth to undrafted guy is staying in
school and making way more money as a college quarterback.
So yeah, again, I'm just out of fire. Tomlin guy.
(40:10):
I have lots of friends who are Steelers people, and
they're like, over it. I just think it's the Russell
Wilson effect.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I think it's just too much to just put on
Russ's shoulders for this, like there's it's been too long. Yeah,
I felt it under the Peak Carroll era and listen,
this year, Doug was ten and seven, no different than
really any of the other Peak Carroll seasons from that
Super Bowl, but it felt different. It was new, it
(40:37):
was new people. You know, there are still mistakes. Seahawks
fired their offensive coordinator, are looking for a new one.
So it's not that everything was perfect, but it was
different and that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. And I
think as a Steelers fan, everything that has lined up
coaching wise and what has done will point to Tomlin
keeping his job. And as a fan, I think it's
probably gotten pretty stale in Pittsburgh
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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