May 21, 2025 • 38 mins
Doug breaks down game one of the Western Conference Finals between the Thunder and T-Wolves and explains how Shai Gilgeous-Alexander gets so many calls and free throw attempts and how that played into the game one win. Doug and the crew discuss the news that the Tush Push will be around for at least one more year. Plus, acclaimed sports author Seth Wickersham joins Doug to discuss his upcoming book about quarterbacks and how the part about Caleb Williams has exploded.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Thanks for listening to The Doug Gotlieb Show podcast. Be
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Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sports Radio. Coming to you from I'm not gonna lie
to you. Kind of cold today in uh in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
It's like summer. We'll be We'll be spring. We'll be
a spring. We got a bunch to get to. Also,
of course, the boys are in Sherman Oaks, California. You
(00:44):
heard Dan Byer with the update. You'll hear him throughout
the show. My guy Jay Stew, my guy Iowa, Big Apple,
Sam or Sean or Steve, don't really know, it doesn't
really matter. Let's move Let's move on. We'll talk push push. Also,
we'll talk about Joe Burrow doing what I think is
(01:06):
a smart business some people think is not. Seth wicker
Sham's going to join us next hour. Of course, he
wrote the new book on Quarterbacks right the American Kings.
It's called American Kings Biography of the Quarterback. Next hour,
we have Mark dull Is going to join us. You're like,
who this one is?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Near?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And dear, I think to Dan Byer's heart. The amateur
four ball Championship going on right now, and he lost yesterday,
but what he accomplished on his own is pretty unique,
pretty remarkable. He'll join us. Next hour, plus, we got
more on North Carolina football and Bill Belichick. So jam
(01:48):
pack show. Let's start with Game one Western Conference Finals.
I can play for you, sound, but let's just do this.
Let's just have kind of an open conversation about it.
So I've been ahead coach for a year, okay, and
I'm fully aware, like you don't have to remind me
of my team's record, and I understand. Imagine, by the way,
(02:10):
if you got the job right now, this is essentially
what happened, and you didn't have a lot of money.
Now you got to go to market and try and
find a team, it would be difficult. There's a school
in our league which fired their coach last week that's
going to have the same difficulty this year. And then
you factor in injuries and whatever, and probably your own
(02:32):
inadequacies as a young coach and a young staff, and
things you didn't do, didn't do right, and overscheduling, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so these are no excuses
to you, they may be to me. It's the reality
of the biz. We lost I would say six games,
(02:55):
six games where the competitive balance of the officiating was
completely out of whack that no matter what we would
have done, I felt like we weren't getting what I
would call a fair whistle, and a fair whistle is
not what was missing last night. And what happens when
(03:16):
you tweet out something like man, just it feels like
two different games being officiated one end to the other.
Is you get response tweets from people or talking about it,
whatever they are. If you go and search my timeline
and then you click on whoever sent it to me,
they live in Oklahoma City, in Tulsa, in Norman, in Moore,
(03:40):
in Edmund, they are Oklahoma City fans. Everybody else saw
essentially the same thing, which is though the foul disparity
is not that great. And let's also be honest, Anthony
Edwards did not play particularly well. No points in the
fourth quarter, and the Minnesota Timberwolves seem to shrime at
times in the moment. And you know, in the second half,
(04:03):
I thought chet Holmgren, especially in the fourth quarter, a
couple of cuts, a couple of tip dunks sort of
became another weapon. And obviously Shake Gildess Alexander's tremendous player.
But that was James Harden two point zero. That was ridiculous.
That was not basketball. And here's what I mean. It's
(04:29):
one thing if he drives in, throws his head back,
falls down, throws it up, and you call a foul
if at the other end that same variety of fowls
is being called. My biggest issue with officiating in one
year of coaching college basketball is not one call here,
in one call there, Oh you killed me with that call,
(04:50):
or you killed me with this call. It's that what's
a fowl? There has to be a foul here. And
I understand that sometimes styles can dictate as well as
personnel can dictate what's called a foul what's not called
a foul. And what Oklahoma City does defensively is they
(05:14):
put tremendous on ball pressure, but they are using their hands,
not just their body. And look that's okay if you're
going to allow the defenders to use their hands. The
problem with it is it's not allowed at the other end,
(05:35):
it's not allowed. Now, Shay is a different player than
Anthony Edwards. And what's also different is Oklahoma City is
playing deep and heavy into the gaps. The gaps are
if Mike Conley's on the right wing and I don't know,
(05:55):
Jalen Williams or no, if Shay Gildess Alexander is guarding
Mike Conley on the right wing and Alice Caruso is
guarding Anthony Edwards at the top of the key, they
are playing almost collegiate style help defense, right they are.
It's called loading to the basketball. So what happens is
(06:20):
you'll get people and I've seen it throughout ESPN, and
all they do is they look at the stats, like, well, Minnesota,
all they did was shoot threes. Oklahoma City drove the basketball.
Oklahoma City gets the fouls fairly accurate. Now, some of
it comes from, Hey, when you take one dribble to
your right, right there in help is Shay Gildess Alexander.
(06:41):
You have to kick it out and Mike Conley has
to make a three. Some of that is the defense
determining what you take, take the right shot, but some
of it is the fact that Oklahoma City is frankly,
blatantly old school hand checking and getting up into you,
which is called a foul in the regular season, not
in the postseason. At the other end, they're officiating it
(07:04):
like any other NBA regular season game. Or you can't
touch Shay Gildas Alexander because he's gonna throw his head
back or fall down and they automatically call a foul.
It is two different games. And what you tell your
players is, hey, you got to adjust to the officiating.
But it's really hard to adjust when it's not one
(07:25):
overall template for how the game's being officiated. Instead, it's
one game at one end and one game at the other,
and good, I'll grant you. Some of it comes down
to spacing, someone comes down to stylistically, Oklahoma City is
helping a great deal. It cuts off some of that penetration,
but a lot of it has to do with, hey, dude,
are you gonna let us put our hands on people tonight?
(07:45):
If you are, great, we won't complain. But if you're
gonna let them do it, you gotta let us do it.
And just because he falls down does not make it
means he gets the call. And look, you're talking to
somebody who goes to Oklahoma City Thunder games. I'm a
fan of everything that they do. Hey, what happens is
you'll get the oh you're a hater or this shut up,
Actually watch the game, have any This is what was
(08:08):
super frustrating. I told you, guys, I'm in the stands
in game seven and Yo, get strives in spins around,
gets valid, gets the lad Some guys like a free
throw merchant, and I just said, hey, that's like pot
calling kettle black Shay is the worst or the best,
depending on your perspective in the league at being a
free throw merchant. So and here's what will happen. They'll
(08:34):
go on the road and he won't get a call
in games three and four and three and four, and
they'll come back home in game five and then game
six and usually usually this is where the Denver series
was different. Usually in game seven it's a very evenly
officiated game. It was not in the last series. It
was not last night. There's no one who can tell me.
(08:56):
And again, the first half of the game, I was
passively watching. It was at dinner with some friends. I
came home, watched the second half, and Shay woke up,
started playing, and you know, and it'd be a snowball effect.
But what's interesting is and and some of it is
Minnesota kind of falling asleep and Oklahoma City getting away
(09:16):
with a little bit at the end end of the
half was like the end of the half of Denver
Game seven, where they get a couple of seals, get
a couple of layups, and they feel better about themselves
going to halftime. But I went back and watched the
first half. It was replayed today. I can't remember his
NBA TV or whatever I was watching. I was like, dude,
it's two different games, one end of the other. And
there's there's even videos out there out there of all
(09:39):
the fouls that Shay drew. And the fact that I
think it was like twelve or thirteen fouls that he drew,
and like five of them feel like they're legit fowls.
It's just embarrassing. And I you know, we can say, well,
Jordan got calls and whatever the difference in the Jordan
got calls and the Shaye Gilds Alexander multitude things. One,
(10:01):
Michael Jordan was a multi time MVP. He's literally the
greatest player of all time. And yeah, you give him
the benefit of the doubt too. When he played against
the Detroit Pistons, they would try and hurt him with
multiple guys. Wasn't like it was touch foul here, touch
fowl there. Hey, he drove in to get contact and
he got hammered. Different sport, different game. And then three,
(10:24):
there wasn't the disparity of one end to the other,
feeling like there's a different template for how a games
can be officiated like it is with Oklahoma City, and
what will happen is all my friends in Oklahoma list
is like, oh, dude, they're just a hater. You're are like, no,
I'm not. I actually think they're awesome. They got good culture,
(10:44):
good depth, they moved to basketball. I don't. I don't
think Shay is anywhere near the best player in the league,
even if he gets the you'll get the MVP of
the league, because he doesn't really make everybody around him better. Uh,
And he's not He's not a top level defender. And
you're like, you can tell me all you want about
(11:06):
Jokic and his defense at the rim. If you watch him,
he's unbelievably crafty at defending and trying to not foul
and defending the rim and using his body and rebounding
all the other things. But if you want to make
the argument that he's the most valuable player, I would
say yeah, because he scores. He gets the other team
(11:26):
in foul trouble, which helps take starters out of the game.
He can set kind of the tempo to the game.
He puts the other team in an argumentative and defensive
sort of position where they don't know do I pressure
him or do I play off of him? Because if
I pressure him, they'll call me for a foul. If
I play off of him, he's probably gonna score. So
Shay has a tremendous amount of value to that team,
(11:48):
to that roster jowt they play. I don't think he's
one of the top five players in the NBA, and
I think most people would probably agree with that. But
unbelievably valuable last night his ability to get to the
free throw line and to frustrate the opponent despite his
inaccuracy shooting in the first half, I thought was was
(12:11):
the biggest reason to thunder won the game by you're
a neutral bystander, You're just a basketball fan like I
am in this situation. What did you see in last night's.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Game, Doug, I wasn't locked in as you were on
the game. It just felt like the Thunder made a run.
Shay Gildgess Alexander was extremely an extremely different player in
the second half as he was in the first half.
I thought it was interesting because Minnesota made it wasn't around,
(12:43):
but they led for the pretty much the entire first half,
and there was a portion of it without Anthony Edwards.
And if you say to yourself, if you're Minnesota at
that point, even when it was like a ten point game,
and I think Oklahoma City closed it to within about
four at halftime, you have to say, all right, well,
we didn't ant in the first half, and Julius Randall
really was playing well. We like our chances in the
(13:04):
second half, and then midway through the third quarter there's
this Oklahoma City run and then it just kind of
keeps going from there. Officiating wise, I don't know if
the NBA wants to make it a seven game series,
and felt that it or an extended series, and felt
it wouldn't go that wave. Minnesota got game one, but
this is how Oklahoma City does things. I'm curious to
(13:27):
see on what their energy level is in game two.
I think that will be a big factor. But now
I thought chet Holmgren played well as size, you know,
causing issues. I just thought it was Oklahoma City turning
it on in the second half like they normally do.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I just think that the big, the interesting part is
going to be in the you know, you're trying to
create the next wave of stars, right Anthony Edwards couldn't
get anything going shake Yellis Alisander couldn't until the second half.
But I I do think we're creating a James Harden
(14:04):
esque sort of superstar where he is so widely, wildly
dependent upon the officials in order to make the plays
that he makes that it's going to And look, I
understand everybody hates everybody, right, that's the nature of what
social media has brought to sports, is that everybody hates everything.
(14:26):
But it was as a basketball guy. It was a
hard watch for a guy going in and you wouldn't
believe how many times he falls down, Like he just
falls down. It's one thing to get Vould something is
just like fall down and throw the ball up and
you mentioned run like that's Those runs are often the same.
He'll go in there and he'll get vowled twice in
a row, and then the guys are forced to like, why,
(14:47):
I guess I can't touch him, and now he's got
it rolling. The crowd's going crazy. I Meanwhile, at the
other end, they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want,
and you're like, well, what are we supposed to do here?
At the other end, you could point out, hey, those
are probably not really fouls. But again, if you're going
to call it, call the whistle. You know, tight on drives,
it sets that. It just changes the whole tenor of
(15:10):
the game.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
I do think that Minnesota's reliant or reliant on the three,
like in last night, that there just didn't seem to
be any interest at all in trying to go at
the basket and would settle for what they have fifty
three point attempts last night, right, And.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That's why I say, Oklahoma City loaded up the lane
and really helped and made them make shots. And they
didn't make shots.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Sure, so no question, you know, if they're just launching
an Oklahoma City and she's getting his mid range shots.
I think that you can look at that and be like, oh, okay,
I see how it is. Minnesota is not going at
the basket. They're not and while while the thunder are.
I would say this though, in your point of SGA
versus Anthony Edwards, Anthony Edwards has it. SGA is great,
(15:58):
and as you said, he could win the MVP, but
you don't think he's a top five player in the league.
And that's completely fair in that point. But I don't
think that Shay gilgis Alexander is gonna be rising to
the level that Anthony Edwards could. I don't think that
he has it in what we're talking about. So he
maybe maybe he's in the James Harden group. Maybe maybe
(16:21):
that's the conversation that we end up having about SGA
and being how good he is. But like I think
Anthony Edwards has it that thing that very few players have.
I don't know if SGA has it, and maybe that's
what's frustrating.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Uh yeah, both interesting about it is. I agree with
you in terms of personality. I agree with you in
terms of you know, like the movie that he was in,
The The Electricity that he creates based upon his explosiveness
going to the basket right like he does superstar sort
(16:56):
of stuff. But here's why I'll disagree with you. Anwards
was nowhere near, nor should he be anywhere near the
MVP discussion. And SHA's probably gonna win an MVP, So
you're right, only in terms of accomplishments. Shay will be
more accomplished as an individual player. And again, whoever wins
(17:17):
this series will have led their team to greater accomplishments.
And right now, it's Oklahoma City up one game to none,
and Anthony Edwards did not play particularly well. Didn't play
particularly well.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
Yes, Chase two, coach, I got a question.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
There's a question that needs an answer, and the answer
is if only there was someone with the authority and
the wisdom to give us that answer.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
No, I'm the head coach. I get to set the schedule.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
Hold on, let's ask the coach Doug.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
When Anthony Edwards is at the press conference half afterwards
and he references AAU, what does he mean by this?
Speaker 7 (17:55):
Yeah, I mean harder process, because he right, it was different.
It was kind of different every time. I mean heavy
into gaps, sometimes trap the ball screen, sometimes don't sometimes
just run and jump. It's kind of similar to like AAU.
They remind me of like an AAU defensive team, just
running jump, fly around. So it's pretty good. Good to
(18:17):
get it out of our system in game one, you know,
so we'll be ready for a game two.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Okay. So what he means, as a former AU coach,
I can tell you is it's they don't play traditional
NBA defense, right, traditional NBA defenses, you play man. Your rotations,
your ball screen coverage are the only things that really
change team to team. But generally you don't put two
on the basketball. That means you don't trap the ball,
you don't run and jump. Run and jump is you
(18:43):
know you're playing man and man and somebody spin dribbles
or or you know, crosses over and if you're the
closest guy, you go trap the ball and everybody goes
and rotates around you, almost zones up around you. Those
are kind of AAU high school sometimes you see in college.
It's it's rare that teams play that way. So that's
what he meant by AAU sort of defense. And he's
(19:07):
right when he says heavy into the gaps. Everybody sits
there and goes like, well all they did was show
thras Well, yeah, they Every time Anthony Edwards strove there
was a second guy there. He was making the right play, now,
can you. It's called stampeding. Stampede is when you kick
it out to a guy instead of shooting a three,
(19:28):
he like gets a running start and drives in again. Sure,
but they're playing off of Anthony Edwards with shooters. They
were taking what the defense gave them, and he was
unable to get to the hoop. And that's because I
believe not just heavy in the gaps with help, but
a ton of hand checking on the basketball, which which
was taken out of the game like twenty years ago
(19:51):
and has only come back at times in the playoffs.
Only it only came back at one end of the
floor last night.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yes, Uh, was that an impression of me, because five
minutes ago I said as much that Minnesota shot fifty threes.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
No, Noice, that was that. No, that was postgame. I
saw some postgame stuff with people. Cool. Well they you
know they they shot fifty threes, you know, just a
bad shoot? Was it a bad shooting night? Was?
Speaker 8 (20:15):
No? It was it wasn't a bad shooting.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I mean they hit fifteen of them, you know, for
for for what they they hit.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
I just I think just.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
In terms of how you're calling calling a game, the
optics of it.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
If if you're.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Taking what the defense gives you and they're just giving
you the threes and you're shooting those, then.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yes, yeah, you got to make a high percentage? Was Iowa, Sean, Sam, Steve,
what do you got?
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, just checking, just checking.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Doug
Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
The twenty twenty five NFL schedule is out. Don't miss
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(21:14):
We got a bunch to get to NFL. Wise, you
guys are laughing because I have to read that thing, right, Well,
don't laugh at me. I have to read that thing.
According to Pro Football Talk, the anti tush push forces
inevitably will return with another effort to remove the Eagles
signature play from the rule book Wednesday. The effort failed
(21:35):
by only two votes, with twenty four required. The final
tally was twenty two to ten. Multiple reports indicated that
the Ravens, Patriots, Jets, and Lions were among the ten
nay votes. Were told that the Titans, Jaguars, and Browns
were opposed to the proposal throwing the Eagles and that's
ten vote ends the matter for twenty twenty five and
(21:58):
unoutedly will extend back to next March as they're trying
to get rid of the tush push. I just look,
my thought is this. Stop stop saying it's about players safety.
I actually don't think it's a particularly safe play, but
(22:19):
you don't have the run up to it, and you
don't have any sort of data that supports that it's
an unsafe play. What you can easily take out is
the ability to push your teammate from behind, and honestly,
that's in the rules now. It just has to be
an emphasis of the rules. You can't push a player
(22:41):
from your own teammate from behind. So I think it's
the way in which they attacked it, not the fact
that most people want out of the game, but we
did see some counters to it, some different things other
people try and do it. Josh Allen got stopped on it,
but he stood up straight as opposed to Jalen Hurts,
(23:03):
super Bowl champion quarterback who we all know squat six
hundred pounds, uses that power combined with the fact that
they've probably worked on it more than anybody else, and
they do it to what seems like perfection. Seems like perfection. Jaysetu,
you had a thought on the Tousch push.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, Doug, I wasn't surprised that the vote went the
way it did. And here's why. I don't think you
could take away the Toush push in the wake of
them winning a Super Bowl. So I hate predicting things,
but this this is basically just kind of giving you
my thinking. Say the Eagles make it to the Divisionals
next year and lose, it's going to be easier to
(23:40):
take the Toush push away after that. And I also
think that because the touch push has been ruled in,
other teams are going to master it, maybe one or
two and it's going to become one of those things
where it's going to be so boring and esthetically bad
to look at that it'll be easier a year, a
(24:00):
year from now to overturn it.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you guys agree, Well, let me take the last
part first, which is the the idea that it's boring.
And I do think there's a little bit of that
with like UFC, right, Like some of those guys are
ground and pound guys, the old school grappler guys. They
got to get you to the ground. But it's really
hard to understand and it can be a tough watch,
(24:24):
and I think that's what that's what it is more
than anything. It's like kind of an inevitable play. It
seems hard to stop and it's not esthetically pleasing. You
kind of can't see why it works. I do think
that that's a portion of it, that it's just not
that much fun. But yeah, I mean other teams have
(24:44):
already tried, they will continue to try. And I love
the idea that there are some teams that it does
feel like sour grapes when they just won a Super
Bowl and now you get rid of one of their
signature plays.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
I agree with that as well. I think that's the
Eagles portion.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Of it, and I think that's I don't know if
the packers tried to, because they changed the language of
it to make it any pushing or pulling of a
player would be banned. But they did change the language
leading up to these meetings this week, and I don't
know if that was their way to try to secure it,
to be like, hey, it's not just this half yard
on a fourth down or a.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
Goal to go situation. It should be any portion.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
But yeah, if the Eagles are nine to eight and
bow out in the first run of the playoffs, so
think it'll be easier to say bye bye to it?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, Jason Kelcey apparently spoke to owners prior to the vote.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
Yeah, Jeffrey LORII did as well.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Like, hey, this is our signature play, don't take it out.
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Speaker 4 (26:03):
Shaved to the foul line, steps Away, fires Maadeaway, sixty
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Speaker 2 (26:09):
Got thirty one and take it over.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
Game one, OK, seed down, ain't nothing to start by
as many as not in the opening half wallop the
Wolves in Game one one four eighty eight. A resounding
message sent by the top seeded Thunder as they pick
off the Wolves in Game one decisively one fourteen to
eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That from WWLS the Thunder Radio Network, our tyract play
of the day. Coming up next to The Doug Gottlieb Show.
Remember the recent story about Kayleb Williams and his dad
and they try to pull off uh the Eli manning
for the twenty twenty four NFL draft. The source of
that story or the author of that story joins us.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
Next, be sure to catch the live edition of The
Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Eastern noon Pacific.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
One Up, Doug Gotlieb Shoe Fox Sports Radio. I love
guys that multitask I am a multitasker, as many of
you know.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Seth Wicker Shams the sports writer, acclaimed sports author. He's
author author of the new book American King's Biography of
the Quarterback, which is available now for pre order. The
book comes out in September. He joinses Now on the
Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports Radio, but not not
without mentioning that he just tweeted out some inside information
(27:30):
from the Tush Push vote earlier today, Right, Seth, So,
I just saw a quote that you tweeted out. But
most of America is driving their car. They're at the cubicle.
They can't see it. What was the analogy that Jeffrey
Lorie used about the play?
Speaker 9 (27:46):
Hey, guys, good to see, Good to talk to you again. Yeah,
some news coming at it today. You know, it's a
very heated toush push argument today. In the league meetings earlier,
and I think, you know, Eagles owner Jeffrey Lourie made
an impassioned me speech. It lasted close.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
To an hour.
Speaker 9 (28:02):
He spent a lot of time, you know, defending the
play and his team, and you know, I think he
thought that he had seen reports that the twist Push
was going to be banned, and so I think he
felt that he needed to, you know, kind of throw
a hail Mary.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And he made an analogy that kind.
Speaker 9 (28:19):
Of fell flat where you know, he he he said that,
you know, it was like a wet dream for a
teenage boy quote to create a play.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That was so successful that the only.
Speaker 9 (28:31):
Way for it to be stopped was for it to
be banned.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
And so yeah.
Speaker 9 (28:35):
So you know, Troy Vincent, NFL executive vice president, later
told him he thought that was completely insensitive, given that,
you know, there's a lot of people in the room,
including women, and obviously.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know, the Twust push ended up not getting banned.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, it's really interesting. There was so much momentum for it.
It wasn't like he was even it was twenty two
to ten, but he's twenty four votes in order to
go through. Okay, Seth, let's it's been I don't know
about a week week and a half since the excerpts
from your book were first released, and everyone talked obviously
about Caleb Williams. What's the fallout been in the league
(29:16):
from Caleb at the time saying I want to go
to the Vikings and now he's a member of the Bears.
Speaker 9 (29:24):
Well, one of the funny things about when you do
a story for some reason, the first question people ask
is about like fallout or reaction, And not to sound
all Larry David, but the reaction has been me answering
questions about people asking me what the reaction is, you know, but.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But you also but you also do wear two hats, right,
Like it's not like you write the book and I'm
just an author of that book and nothing else. You
also still report on the NFL. So I know people
are pulling you aside, going like I can't or whatever
they're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that, like I think that, Like.
Speaker 9 (29:57):
There was a lot of sort of rumor in some
reporting at the time that you know that Caleb had
some doubts about.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Going to the Bears, and then his dad definitely did.
Speaker 9 (30:06):
And so you know what I tried to do was
add what I could on that reporting. And you know,
I think his dad, Carl wanted to give him, want
to find any way possible to do what Jack and
John Lway had done and do what Archie and Eli
Manning had done, and that was, you know, give his
son some agency over his future employer.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
It's not an unreasonable thing.
Speaker 9 (30:28):
And the lead up to the draft, you know, they
Carl had told me, you know, Chicago's where quarterbacks go
to die, and he's not wrong. And so now Caleb,
though was the one making the decisions, and so Caleb.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Met with the Bears at the combine. I think it
was a good meeting. It was fine.
Speaker 9 (30:52):
And then he also at the combine met with Kevin
O'Connell of the Minnesota Vikings. And O'Connell, of course, is
a four year starter at San Diego State, played quarterback
with Tom Brady a little bit in the NFL, one
of the been around some of the best coaches in
the NFL, and is now one of them himself, and
they really got along well, and I think it got
Caleb energized and thinking like, man, you know, could that
(31:15):
be a possibility to play in Minnesota? And he told
his dad, I really I got to go to Minnesota.
But you know the problem is the draft is collectively bargained,
and even though Carl Williams had spent the better part
of the year trying to find any way around it,
talking to lawyers, Archie Manning, all kinds of people, there
really wasn't a way. And and that left them with
(31:37):
one option.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And that was to.
Speaker 9 (31:40):
Kind of nuke the city and make the and the
team and make everything untenable. And you know kind of
what John and Jack Elway did, which the city of
Baltimore in eighty three, and at the end of the day,
Caleb was not willing, was not right, was not willing
and ready to do that he didn't want to. He
visited with the Bears again. He enjoyed this time with them,
(32:00):
and he decided he wanted to make it work in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
This it wasn't a Caleb Williams book. I think that's
the most important thing that you not understand, right. But
it again, because the quotes, and because he was in
a moon pick, and because of pulling an Eli Manning.
It's become before people up a Caleb Williams book, Who's
the most surprising quarterback? In terms of the story you
(32:33):
feel like people will learn about when they pick up
the book.
Speaker 9 (32:37):
Well, so, I mean, Jia zoom back, I mean, what's
fascinated about me about this this job? You know, it's
a very unique American job. It has very unique responsibilities.
It's unlike anything else in sports in almost every single way.
You know, a shortstop or a center fielder or a
point guard does not wear all of the hats and
quarterback wearers. From being the spokesperson of a multi billion
dollar organization to Matt may Idol to situational asshole. Like
(33:02):
you know, there's all kinds of things, and.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
You know, I wanted to.
Speaker 9 (33:07):
Try to show what it takes to do this and
what kind of people are drawn to it. It's again,
it's just different, and so it's not a history of
the quarterback. But I did figure out and try to
look at, like, you know, how did this become so
celebrated in our in our culture.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And I think that, like you know, some of the
answers go.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Back to nineteen oh six, some of them go back
to the nineteen forties with Bob Waterfield and Jane Russell.
Bob Waterfield when he was at UCLA and he was
dating Jane Russell, who at the time was the world's
biggest pit up star. Ran in higher, more lofty American
circles than any college quarterback ever, more than Tim Teeble,
(33:46):
more than Caleb Williams, you name it.
Speaker 8 (33:48):
It was.
Speaker 9 (33:48):
I mean, he was he was hanging out with Sinatra
as a college senior. And but most of all, I
wanted to like show in the realist way what it
was like to do this, whether it was through the
eyes of l Way or the Manning family and Archie
Manning's recruitment, or Caleb Williams in his journey or Steve Young.
(34:09):
You know. So anyway, there's a lot of those guys
that come into play, and there's other quarterbacks who kind
of get their moment on stage. But I think the
thing that surprised me the most is just how from
the moment that really, like a man could throw spirals.
This thing was celebrated in America and in a very
real way. Even though quarterback is huge now, it's like
(34:29):
time as a flat circle.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
You also wrote the Brady Belichick book. Seth Bicker SAMs
our guest here on the Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox
Sports Radio. If I were to tell you, and you
were writing that book that Bill Belichick would be a
college coach and be engaged to a twenty four year
old who people believe is the puppet master behind a
(34:56):
lot of his media and social media things, what would
you have said.
Speaker 9 (35:04):
I would have said, let's talk when you're sober. Uh yeah, boy,
you know I think that like since Belichick, you know,
since he opened the door for Tom Brady to leave
(35:25):
New England and Brady walked right out, you know, it
just it hasn't been a great run for him. You know,
they he drafted Bradie's replacement in mac Jones, didn't really
work out, had some losing seasons there the end of
New England, had an awkward parting of ways with with
Bob Kraft obviously, didn't get hired again in the NFL
and was out of the game for the first time
(35:46):
out of the NFL for the first time since you know,
he was a senior at Wesleyan. And you know, venue
of this drama, I mean, I think that, like the
Universe to North Carolina, when they made Bill Belichick the
state's highest paid public employee.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
They.
Speaker 9 (36:07):
Had to have been thinking that at the minimum, what
we are getting is a low drama, buttoned up football operation.
And since Belichick has been there so far, we're not talking.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
About any of the players.
Speaker 9 (36:20):
We're not talking about how he's going to scheme up
defenses to slap around Davos Swiney's offense. What we're talking
about with Bill is all of these you know, side issues,
and a lot of that falls at his speed.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Seth. We're going to have you back when the book
is out. Remember this, this book, which you can pre
order right now, is called American Kings. A biography of
the quarterback. And yes, to Kayleb Williams part is part
of it, but so to his arch Manning, so too
is many of the other young quarterbacks. It'll come out
in September. Seth, great stuff. Love having you on. We'll
talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Thanks. Great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Man. Likewise, let me get you Dan Byer get a
quick breaking news update here on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 6 (37:07):
Breaking news from Fox Sports.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Oklahoma City thunder guard Shay Giljess Alexander is the NBA's
MVP for the twenty twenty four to twenty five season.
That's according to our report from ESPN.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yes, and when he goes up to grab the MVP,
if anybody gets in his way at all, we know
it's going to be an animal. What that's the third
Oklahoma City thunder player to get the MVP? Is that right?
Third player to get the MVP?
Speaker 8 (37:37):
Durant Westbrook and SGA.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting. I heard Stephen A say that
Sam Presty was a failure because they haven't won a
championship despite all the players. It's I mean, I greatly
disagree with it, but it actually is a discussion. It's like, Okay,
it is a discussion
Thanks for listening to The Doug Gotlieb Show podcast. Be
sure to catch us live every weekday three to five,
twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your local
station for The Doug Gottlieb Show at Foxsports Radio dot com,
or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app
by searching apps par boo, What Up America, Doug Gottlieb Show, Fuck.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sports Radio. Coming to you from I'm not gonna lie
to you. Kind of cold today in uh in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
It's like summer. We'll be We'll be spring. We'll be
a spring. We got a bunch to get to. Also,
of course, the boys are in Sherman Oaks, California. You
(00:44):
heard Dan Byer with the update. You'll hear him throughout
the show. My guy Jay Stew, my guy Iowa, Big Apple,
Sam or Sean or Steve, don't really know, it doesn't
really matter. Let's move Let's move on. We'll talk push push. Also,
we'll talk about Joe Burrow doing what I think is
(01:06):
a smart business some people think is not. Seth wicker
Sham's going to join us next hour. Of course, he
wrote the new book on Quarterbacks right the American Kings.
It's called American Kings Biography of the Quarterback. Next hour,
we have Mark dull Is going to join us. You're like,
who this one is?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Near?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And dear, I think to Dan Byer's heart. The amateur
four ball Championship going on right now, and he lost yesterday,
but what he accomplished on his own is pretty unique,
pretty remarkable. He'll join us. Next hour, plus, we got
more on North Carolina football and Bill Belichick. So jam
(01:48):
pack show. Let's start with Game one Western Conference Finals.
I can play for you, sound, but let's just do this.
Let's just have kind of an open conversation about it.
So I've been ahead coach for a year, okay, and
I'm fully aware, like you don't have to remind me
of my team's record, and I understand. Imagine, by the way,
(02:10):
if you got the job right now, this is essentially
what happened, and you didn't have a lot of money.
Now you got to go to market and try and
find a team, it would be difficult. There's a school
in our league which fired their coach last week that's
going to have the same difficulty this year. And then
you factor in injuries and whatever, and probably your own
(02:32):
inadequacies as a young coach and a young staff, and
things you didn't do, didn't do right, and overscheduling, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so these are no excuses
to you, they may be to me. It's the reality
of the biz. We lost I would say six games,
(02:55):
six games where the competitive balance of the officiating was
completely out of whack that no matter what we would
have done, I felt like we weren't getting what I
would call a fair whistle, and a fair whistle is
not what was missing last night. And what happens when
(03:16):
you tweet out something like man, just it feels like
two different games being officiated one end to the other.
Is you get response tweets from people or talking about it,
whatever they are. If you go and search my timeline
and then you click on whoever sent it to me,
they live in Oklahoma City, in Tulsa, in Norman, in Moore,
(03:40):
in Edmund, they are Oklahoma City fans. Everybody else saw
essentially the same thing, which is though the foul disparity
is not that great. And let's also be honest, Anthony
Edwards did not play particularly well. No points in the
fourth quarter, and the Minnesota Timberwolves seem to shrime at
times in the moment. And you know, in the second half,
(04:03):
I thought chet Holmgren, especially in the fourth quarter, a
couple of cuts, a couple of tip dunks sort of
became another weapon. And obviously Shake Gildess Alexander's tremendous player.
But that was James Harden two point zero. That was ridiculous.
That was not basketball. And here's what I mean. It's
(04:29):
one thing if he drives in, throws his head back,
falls down, throws it up, and you call a foul
if at the other end that same variety of fowls
is being called. My biggest issue with officiating in one
year of coaching college basketball is not one call here,
in one call there, Oh you killed me with that call,
(04:50):
or you killed me with this call. It's that what's
a fowl? There has to be a foul here. And
I understand that sometimes styles can dictate as well as
personnel can dictate what's called a foul what's not called
a foul. And what Oklahoma City does defensively is they
(05:14):
put tremendous on ball pressure, but they are using their hands,
not just their body. And look that's okay if you're
going to allow the defenders to use their hands. The
problem with it is it's not allowed at the other end,
(05:35):
it's not allowed. Now, Shay is a different player than
Anthony Edwards. And what's also different is Oklahoma City is
playing deep and heavy into the gaps. The gaps are
if Mike Conley's on the right wing and I don't know,
(05:55):
Jalen Williams or no, if Shay Gildess Alexander is guarding
Mike Conley on the right wing and Alice Caruso is
guarding Anthony Edwards at the top of the key, they
are playing almost collegiate style help defense, right they are.
It's called loading to the basketball. So what happens is
(06:20):
you'll get people and I've seen it throughout ESPN, and
all they do is they look at the stats, like, well, Minnesota,
all they did was shoot threes. Oklahoma City drove the basketball.
Oklahoma City gets the fouls fairly accurate. Now, some of
it comes from, Hey, when you take one dribble to
your right, right there in help is Shay Gildess Alexander.
(06:41):
You have to kick it out and Mike Conley has
to make a three. Some of that is the defense
determining what you take, take the right shot, but some
of it is the fact that Oklahoma City is frankly,
blatantly old school hand checking and getting up into you,
which is called a foul in the regular season, not
in the postseason. At the other end, they're officiating it
(07:04):
like any other NBA regular season game. Or you can't
touch Shay Gildas Alexander because he's gonna throw his head
back or fall down and they automatically call a foul.
It is two different games. And what you tell your
players is, hey, you got to adjust to the officiating.
But it's really hard to adjust when it's not one
(07:25):
overall template for how the game's being officiated. Instead, it's
one game at one end and one game at the other,
and good, I'll grant you. Some of it comes down
to spacing, someone comes down to stylistically, Oklahoma City is
helping a great deal. It cuts off some of that penetration,
but a lot of it has to do with, hey, dude,
are you gonna let us put our hands on people tonight?
(07:45):
If you are, great, we won't complain. But if you're
gonna let them do it, you gotta let us do it.
And just because he falls down does not make it
means he gets the call. And look, you're talking to
somebody who goes to Oklahoma City Thunder games. I'm a
fan of everything that they do. Hey, what happens is
you'll get the oh you're a hater or this shut up,
Actually watch the game, have any This is what was
(08:08):
super frustrating. I told you, guys, I'm in the stands
in game seven and Yo, get strives in spins around,
gets valid, gets the lad Some guys like a free
throw merchant, and I just said, hey, that's like pot
calling kettle black Shay is the worst or the best,
depending on your perspective in the league at being a
free throw merchant. So and here's what will happen. They'll
(08:34):
go on the road and he won't get a call
in games three and four and three and four, and
they'll come back home in game five and then game
six and usually usually this is where the Denver series
was different. Usually in game seven it's a very evenly
officiated game. It was not in the last series. It
was not last night. There's no one who can tell me.
(08:56):
And again, the first half of the game, I was
passively watching. It was at dinner with some friends. I
came home, watched the second half, and Shay woke up,
started playing, and you know, and it'd be a snowball effect.
But what's interesting is and and some of it is
Minnesota kind of falling asleep and Oklahoma City getting away
(09:16):
with a little bit at the end end of the
half was like the end of the half of Denver
Game seven, where they get a couple of seals, get
a couple of layups, and they feel better about themselves
going to halftime. But I went back and watched the
first half. It was replayed today. I can't remember his
NBA TV or whatever I was watching. I was like, dude,
it's two different games, one end of the other. And
there's there's even videos out there out there of all
(09:39):
the fouls that Shay drew. And the fact that I
think it was like twelve or thirteen fouls that he drew,
and like five of them feel like they're legit fowls.
It's just embarrassing. And I you know, we can say, well,
Jordan got calls and whatever the difference in the Jordan
got calls and the Shaye Gilds Alexander multitude things. One,
(10:01):
Michael Jordan was a multi time MVP. He's literally the
greatest player of all time. And yeah, you give him
the benefit of the doubt too. When he played against
the Detroit Pistons, they would try and hurt him with
multiple guys. Wasn't like it was touch foul here, touch
fowl there. Hey, he drove in to get contact and
he got hammered. Different sport, different game. And then three,
(10:24):
there wasn't the disparity of one end to the other,
feeling like there's a different template for how a games
can be officiated like it is with Oklahoma City, and
what will happen is all my friends in Oklahoma list
is like, oh, dude, they're just a hater. You're are like, no,
I'm not. I actually think they're awesome. They got good culture,
(10:44):
good depth, they moved to basketball. I don't. I don't
think Shay is anywhere near the best player in the league,
even if he gets the you'll get the MVP of
the league, because he doesn't really make everybody around him better. Uh,
And he's not He's not a top level defender. And
you're like, you can tell me all you want about
(11:06):
Jokic and his defense at the rim. If you watch him,
he's unbelievably crafty at defending and trying to not foul
and defending the rim and using his body and rebounding
all the other things. But if you want to make
the argument that he's the most valuable player, I would
say yeah, because he scores. He gets the other team
(11:26):
in foul trouble, which helps take starters out of the game.
He can set kind of the tempo to the game.
He puts the other team in an argumentative and defensive
sort of position where they don't know do I pressure
him or do I play off of him? Because if
I pressure him, they'll call me for a foul. If
I play off of him, he's probably gonna score. So
Shay has a tremendous amount of value to that team,
(11:48):
to that roster jowt they play. I don't think he's
one of the top five players in the NBA, and
I think most people would probably agree with that. But
unbelievably valuable last night his ability to get to the
free throw line and to frustrate the opponent despite his
inaccuracy shooting in the first half, I thought was was
(12:11):
the biggest reason to thunder won the game by you're
a neutral bystander, You're just a basketball fan like I
am in this situation. What did you see in last night's.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Game, Doug, I wasn't locked in as you were on
the game. It just felt like the Thunder made a run.
Shay Gildgess Alexander was extremely an extremely different player in
the second half as he was in the first half.
I thought it was interesting because Minnesota made it wasn't around,
(12:43):
but they led for the pretty much the entire first half,
and there was a portion of it without Anthony Edwards.
And if you say to yourself, if you're Minnesota at
that point, even when it was like a ten point game,
and I think Oklahoma City closed it to within about
four at halftime, you have to say, all right, well,
we didn't ant in the first half, and Julius Randall
really was playing well. We like our chances in the
(13:04):
second half, and then midway through the third quarter there's
this Oklahoma City run and then it just kind of
keeps going from there. Officiating wise, I don't know if
the NBA wants to make it a seven game series,
and felt that it or an extended series, and felt
it wouldn't go that wave. Minnesota got game one, but
this is how Oklahoma City does things. I'm curious to
(13:27):
see on what their energy level is in game two.
I think that will be a big factor. But now
I thought chet Holmgren played well as size, you know,
causing issues. I just thought it was Oklahoma City turning
it on in the second half like they normally do.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I just think that the big, the interesting part is
going to be in the you know, you're trying to
create the next wave of stars, right Anthony Edwards couldn't
get anything going shake Yellis Alisander couldn't until the second half.
But I I do think we're creating a James Harden
(14:04):
esque sort of superstar where he is so widely, wildly
dependent upon the officials in order to make the plays
that he makes that it's going to And look, I
understand everybody hates everybody, right, that's the nature of what
social media has brought to sports, is that everybody hates everything.
(14:26):
But it was as a basketball guy. It was a
hard watch for a guy going in and you wouldn't
believe how many times he falls down, Like he just
falls down. It's one thing to get Vould something is
just like fall down and throw the ball up and
you mentioned run like that's Those runs are often the same.
He'll go in there and he'll get vowled twice in
a row, and then the guys are forced to like, why,
(14:47):
I guess I can't touch him, and now he's got
it rolling. The crowd's going crazy. I Meanwhile, at the
other end, they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want,
and you're like, well, what are we supposed to do here?
At the other end, you could point out, hey, those
are probably not really fouls. But again, if you're going
to call it, call the whistle. You know, tight on drives,
it sets that. It just changes the whole tenor of
(15:10):
the game.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
I do think that Minnesota's reliant or reliant on the three,
like in last night, that there just didn't seem to
be any interest at all in trying to go at
the basket and would settle for what they have fifty
three point attempts last night, right, And.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That's why I say, Oklahoma City loaded up the lane
and really helped and made them make shots. And they
didn't make shots.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Sure, so no question, you know, if they're just launching
an Oklahoma City and she's getting his mid range shots.
I think that you can look at that and be like, oh, okay,
I see how it is. Minnesota is not going at
the basket. They're not and while while the thunder are.
I would say this though, in your point of SGA
versus Anthony Edwards, Anthony Edwards has it. SGA is great,
(15:58):
and as you said, he could win the MVP, but
you don't think he's a top five player in the league.
And that's completely fair in that point. But I don't
think that Shay gilgis Alexander is gonna be rising to
the level that Anthony Edwards could. I don't think that
he has it in what we're talking about. So he
maybe maybe he's in the James Harden group. Maybe maybe
(16:21):
that's the conversation that we end up having about SGA
and being how good he is. But like I think
Anthony Edwards has it that thing that very few players have.
I don't know if SGA has it, and maybe that's
what's frustrating.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Uh yeah, both interesting about it is. I agree with
you in terms of personality. I agree with you in
terms of you know, like the movie that he was in,
The The Electricity that he creates based upon his explosiveness
going to the basket right like he does superstar sort
(16:56):
of stuff. But here's why I'll disagree with you. Anwards
was nowhere near, nor should he be anywhere near the
MVP discussion. And SHA's probably gonna win an MVP, So
you're right, only in terms of accomplishments. Shay will be
more accomplished as an individual player. And again, whoever wins
(17:17):
this series will have led their team to greater accomplishments.
And right now, it's Oklahoma City up one game to none,
and Anthony Edwards did not play particularly well. Didn't play
particularly well.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
Yes, Chase two, coach, I got a question.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
There's a question that needs an answer, and the answer
is if only there was someone with the authority and
the wisdom to give us that answer.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
No, I'm the head coach. I get to set the schedule.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
Hold on, let's ask the coach Doug.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
When Anthony Edwards is at the press conference half afterwards
and he references AAU, what does he mean by this?
Speaker 7 (17:55):
Yeah, I mean harder process, because he right, it was different.
It was kind of different every time. I mean heavy
into gaps, sometimes trap the ball screen, sometimes don't sometimes
just run and jump. It's kind of similar to like AAU.
They remind me of like an AAU defensive team, just
running jump, fly around. So it's pretty good. Good to
(18:17):
get it out of our system in game one, you know,
so we'll be ready for a game two.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Okay. So what he means, as a former AU coach,
I can tell you is it's they don't play traditional
NBA defense, right, traditional NBA defenses, you play man. Your rotations,
your ball screen coverage are the only things that really
change team to team. But generally you don't put two
on the basketball. That means you don't trap the ball,
you don't run and jump. Run and jump is you
(18:43):
know you're playing man and man and somebody spin dribbles
or or you know, crosses over and if you're the
closest guy, you go trap the ball and everybody goes
and rotates around you, almost zones up around you. Those
are kind of AAU high school sometimes you see in college.
It's it's rare that teams play that way. So that's
what he meant by AAU sort of defense. And he's
(19:07):
right when he says heavy into the gaps. Everybody sits
there and goes like, well all they did was show
thras Well, yeah, they Every time Anthony Edwards strove there
was a second guy there. He was making the right play, now,
can you. It's called stampeding. Stampede is when you kick
it out to a guy instead of shooting a three,
(19:28):
he like gets a running start and drives in again. Sure,
but they're playing off of Anthony Edwards with shooters. They
were taking what the defense gave them, and he was
unable to get to the hoop. And that's because I
believe not just heavy in the gaps with help, but
a ton of hand checking on the basketball, which which
was taken out of the game like twenty years ago
(19:51):
and has only come back at times in the playoffs.
Only it only came back at one end of the
floor last night.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yes, Uh, was that an impression of me, because five
minutes ago I said as much that Minnesota shot fifty threes.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
No, Noice, that was that. No, that was postgame. I
saw some postgame stuff with people. Cool. Well they you
know they they shot fifty threes, you know, just a
bad shoot? Was it a bad shooting night? Was?
Speaker 8 (20:15):
No? It was it wasn't a bad shooting.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I mean they hit fifteen of them, you know, for
for for what they they hit.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
I just I think just.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
In terms of how you're calling calling a game, the
optics of it.
Speaker 8 (20:27):
If if you're.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Taking what the defense gives you and they're just giving
you the threes and you're shooting those, then.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yes, yeah, you got to make a high percentage? Was Iowa, Sean, Sam, Steve,
what do you got?
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, just checking, just checking.
Speaker 6 (20:43):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Doug
Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
The twenty twenty five NFL schedule is out. Don't miss
a snap download Tickpic today, the best price in the
hottest games, no hitting piece, just football in savings. Get
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(21:14):
We got a bunch to get to NFL. Wise, you
guys are laughing because I have to read that thing, right, Well,
don't laugh at me. I have to read that thing.
According to Pro Football Talk, the anti tush push forces
inevitably will return with another effort to remove the Eagles
signature play from the rule book Wednesday. The effort failed
(21:35):
by only two votes, with twenty four required. The final
tally was twenty two to ten. Multiple reports indicated that
the Ravens, Patriots, Jets, and Lions were among the ten
nay votes. Were told that the Titans, Jaguars, and Browns
were opposed to the proposal throwing the Eagles and that's
ten vote ends the matter for twenty twenty five and
(21:58):
unoutedly will extend back to next March as they're trying
to get rid of the tush push. I just look,
my thought is this. Stop stop saying it's about players safety.
I actually don't think it's a particularly safe play, but
(22:19):
you don't have the run up to it, and you
don't have any sort of data that supports that it's
an unsafe play. What you can easily take out is
the ability to push your teammate from behind, and honestly,
that's in the rules now. It just has to be
an emphasis of the rules. You can't push a player
(22:41):
from your own teammate from behind. So I think it's
the way in which they attacked it, not the fact
that most people want out of the game, but we
did see some counters to it, some different things other
people try and do it. Josh Allen got stopped on it,
but he stood up straight as opposed to Jalen Hurts,
(23:03):
super Bowl champion quarterback who we all know squat six
hundred pounds, uses that power combined with the fact that
they've probably worked on it more than anybody else, and
they do it to what seems like perfection. Seems like perfection. Jaysetu,
you had a thought on the Tousch push.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, Doug, I wasn't surprised that the vote went the
way it did. And here's why. I don't think you
could take away the Toush push in the wake of
them winning a Super Bowl. So I hate predicting things,
but this this is basically just kind of giving you
my thinking. Say the Eagles make it to the Divisionals
next year and lose, it's going to be easier to
(23:40):
take the Toush push away after that. And I also
think that because the touch push has been ruled in,
other teams are going to master it, maybe one or
two and it's going to become one of those things
where it's going to be so boring and esthetically bad
to look at that it'll be easier a year, a
(24:00):
year from now to overturn it.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you guys agree, Well, let me take the last
part first, which is the the idea that it's boring.
And I do think there's a little bit of that
with like UFC, right, Like some of those guys are
ground and pound guys, the old school grappler guys. They
got to get you to the ground. But it's really
hard to understand and it can be a tough watch,
(24:24):
and I think that's what that's what it is more
than anything. It's like kind of an inevitable play. It
seems hard to stop and it's not esthetically pleasing. You
kind of can't see why it works. I do think
that that's a portion of it, that it's just not
that much fun. But yeah, I mean other teams have
(24:44):
already tried, they will continue to try. And I love
the idea that there are some teams that it does
feel like sour grapes when they just won a Super
Bowl and now you get rid of one of their
signature plays.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
I agree with that as well. I think that's the
Eagles portion.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Of it, and I think that's I don't know if
the packers tried to, because they changed the language of
it to make it any pushing or pulling of a
player would be banned. But they did change the language
leading up to these meetings this week, and I don't
know if that was their way to try to secure it,
to be like, hey, it's not just this half yard
on a fourth down or a.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
Goal to go situation. It should be any portion.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
But yeah, if the Eagles are nine to eight and
bow out in the first run of the playoffs, so
think it'll be easier to say bye bye to it?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, Jason Kelcey apparently spoke to owners prior to the vote.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
Yeah, Jeffrey LORII did as well.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Like, hey, this is our signature play, don't take it out.
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Shaved to the foul line, steps Away, fires Maadeaway, sixty
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Speaker 2 (26:09):
Got thirty one and take it over.
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eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That from WWLS the Thunder Radio Network, our tyract play
of the day. Coming up next to The Doug Gottlieb Show.
Remember the recent story about Kayleb Williams and his dad
and they try to pull off uh the Eli manning
for the twenty twenty four NFL draft. The source of
that story or the author of that story joins us.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
Next, be sure to catch the live edition of The
Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Eastern noon Pacific.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
One Up, Doug Gotlieb Shoe Fox Sports Radio. I love
guys that multitask I am a multitasker, as many of
you know.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Seth Wicker Shams the sports writer, acclaimed sports author. He's
author author of the new book American King's Biography of
the Quarterback, which is available now for pre order. The
book comes out in September. He joinses Now on the
Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports Radio, but not not
without mentioning that he just tweeted out some inside information
(27:30):
from the Tush Push vote earlier today, Right, Seth, So,
I just saw a quote that you tweeted out. But
most of America is driving their car. They're at the cubicle.
They can't see it. What was the analogy that Jeffrey
Lorie used about the play?
Speaker 9 (27:46):
Hey, guys, good to see, Good to talk to you again. Yeah,
some news coming at it today. You know, it's a
very heated toush push argument today. In the league meetings earlier,
and I think, you know, Eagles owner Jeffrey Lourie made
an impassioned me speech. It lasted close.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
To an hour.
Speaker 9 (28:02):
He spent a lot of time, you know, defending the
play and his team, and you know, I think he
thought that he had seen reports that the twist Push
was going to be banned, and so I think he
felt that he needed to, you know, kind of throw
a hail Mary.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And he made an analogy that kind.
Speaker 9 (28:19):
Of fell flat where you know, he he he said that,
you know, it was like a wet dream for a
teenage boy quote to create a play.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That was so successful that the only.
Speaker 9 (28:31):
Way for it to be stopped was for it to
be banned.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
And so yeah.
Speaker 9 (28:35):
So you know, Troy Vincent, NFL executive vice president, later
told him he thought that was completely insensitive, given that,
you know, there's a lot of people in the room,
including women, and obviously.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know, the Twust push ended up not getting banned.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, it's really interesting. There was so much momentum for it.
It wasn't like he was even it was twenty two
to ten, but he's twenty four votes in order to
go through. Okay, Seth, let's it's been I don't know
about a week week and a half since the excerpts
from your book were first released, and everyone talked obviously
about Caleb Williams. What's the fallout been in the league
(29:16):
from Caleb at the time saying I want to go
to the Vikings and now he's a member of the Bears.
Speaker 9 (29:24):
Well, one of the funny things about when you do
a story for some reason, the first question people ask
is about like fallout or reaction, And not to sound
all Larry David, but the reaction has been me answering
questions about people asking me what the reaction is, you know, but.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But you also but you also do wear two hats, right,
Like it's not like you write the book and I'm
just an author of that book and nothing else. You
also still report on the NFL. So I know people
are pulling you aside, going like I can't or whatever
they're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that, like I think that, Like.
Speaker 9 (29:57):
There was a lot of sort of rumor in some
reporting at the time that you know that Caleb had
some doubts about.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Going to the Bears, and then his dad definitely did.
Speaker 9 (30:06):
And so you know what I tried to do was
add what I could on that reporting. And you know,
I think his dad, Carl wanted to give him, want
to find any way possible to do what Jack and
John Lway had done and do what Archie and Eli
Manning had done, and that was, you know, give his
son some agency over his future employer.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
It's not an unreasonable thing.
Speaker 9 (30:28):
And the lead up to the draft, you know, they
Carl had told me, you know, Chicago's where quarterbacks go
to die, and he's not wrong. And so now Caleb,
though was the one making the decisions, and so Caleb.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Met with the Bears at the combine. I think it
was a good meeting. It was fine.
Speaker 9 (30:52):
And then he also at the combine met with Kevin
O'Connell of the Minnesota Vikings. And O'Connell, of course, is
a four year starter at San Diego State, played quarterback
with Tom Brady a little bit in the NFL, one
of the been around some of the best coaches in
the NFL, and is now one of them himself, and
they really got along well, and I think it got
Caleb energized and thinking like, man, you know, could that
(31:15):
be a possibility to play in Minnesota? And he told
his dad, I really I got to go to Minnesota.
But you know the problem is the draft is collectively bargained,
and even though Carl Williams had spent the better part
of the year trying to find any way around it,
talking to lawyers, Archie Manning, all kinds of people, there
really wasn't a way. And and that left them with
(31:37):
one option.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And that was to.
Speaker 9 (31:40):
Kind of nuke the city and make the and the
team and make everything untenable. And you know kind of
what John and Jack Elway did, which the city of
Baltimore in eighty three, and at the end of the day,
Caleb was not willing, was not right, was not willing
and ready to do that he didn't want to. He
visited with the Bears again. He enjoyed this time with them,
(32:00):
and he decided he wanted to make it work in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
This it wasn't a Caleb Williams book. I think that's
the most important thing that you not understand, right. But
it again, because the quotes, and because he was in
a moon pick, and because of pulling an Eli Manning.
It's become before people up a Caleb Williams book, Who's
the most surprising quarterback? In terms of the story you
(32:33):
feel like people will learn about when they pick up
the book.
Speaker 9 (32:37):
Well, so, I mean, Jia zoom back, I mean, what's
fascinated about me about this this job? You know, it's
a very unique American job. It has very unique responsibilities.
It's unlike anything else in sports in almost every single way.
You know, a shortstop or a center fielder or a
point guard does not wear all of the hats and
quarterback wearers. From being the spokesperson of a multi billion
dollar organization to Matt may Idol to situational asshole. Like
(33:02):
you know, there's all kinds of things, and.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
You know, I wanted to.
Speaker 9 (33:07):
Try to show what it takes to do this and
what kind of people are drawn to it. It's again,
it's just different, and so it's not a history of
the quarterback. But I did figure out and try to
look at, like, you know, how did this become so
celebrated in our in our culture.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
And I think that, like you know, some of the
answers go.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Back to nineteen oh six, some of them go back
to the nineteen forties with Bob Waterfield and Jane Russell.
Bob Waterfield when he was at UCLA and he was
dating Jane Russell, who at the time was the world's
biggest pit up star. Ran in higher, more lofty American
circles than any college quarterback ever, more than Tim Teeble,
(33:46):
more than Caleb Williams, you name it.
Speaker 8 (33:48):
It was.
Speaker 9 (33:48):
I mean, he was he was hanging out with Sinatra
as a college senior. And but most of all, I
wanted to like show in the realist way what it
was like to do this, whether it was through the
eyes of l Way or the Manning family and Archie
Manning's recruitment, or Caleb Williams in his journey or Steve Young.
(34:09):
You know. So anyway, there's a lot of those guys
that come into play, and there's other quarterbacks who kind
of get their moment on stage. But I think the
thing that surprised me the most is just how from
the moment that really, like a man could throw spirals.
This thing was celebrated in America and in a very
real way. Even though quarterback is huge now, it's like
(34:29):
time as a flat circle.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
You also wrote the Brady Belichick book. Seth Bicker SAMs
our guest here on the Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox
Sports Radio. If I were to tell you, and you
were writing that book that Bill Belichick would be a
college coach and be engaged to a twenty four year
old who people believe is the puppet master behind a
(34:56):
lot of his media and social media things, what would
you have said.
Speaker 9 (35:04):
I would have said, let's talk when you're sober. Uh yeah, boy,
you know I think that like since Belichick, you know,
since he opened the door for Tom Brady to leave
(35:25):
New England and Brady walked right out, you know, it
just it hasn't been a great run for him. You know,
they he drafted Bradie's replacement in mac Jones, didn't really
work out, had some losing seasons there the end of
New England, had an awkward parting of ways with with
Bob Kraft obviously, didn't get hired again in the NFL
and was out of the game for the first time
(35:46):
out of the NFL for the first time since you know,
he was a senior at Wesleyan. And you know, venue
of this drama, I mean, I think that, like the
Universe to North Carolina, when they made Bill Belichick the
state's highest paid public employee.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
They.
Speaker 9 (36:07):
Had to have been thinking that at the minimum, what
we are getting is a low drama, buttoned up football operation.
And since Belichick has been there so far, we're not talking.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
About any of the players.
Speaker 9 (36:20):
We're not talking about how he's going to scheme up
defenses to slap around Davos Swiney's offense. What we're talking
about with Bill is all of these you know, side issues,
and a lot of that falls at his speed.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Seth. We're going to have you back when the book
is out. Remember this, this book, which you can pre
order right now, is called American Kings. A biography of
the quarterback. And yes, to Kayleb Williams part is part
of it, but so to his arch Manning, so too
is many of the other young quarterbacks. It'll come out
in September. Seth, great stuff. Love having you on. We'll
talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Thanks. Great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Man. Likewise, let me get you Dan Byer get a
quick breaking news update here on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 6 (37:07):
Breaking news from Fox Sports.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Oklahoma City thunder guard Shay Giljess Alexander is the NBA's
MVP for the twenty twenty four to twenty five season.
That's according to our report from ESPN.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yes, and when he goes up to grab the MVP,
if anybody gets in his way at all, we know
it's going to be an animal. What that's the third
Oklahoma City thunder player to get the MVP? Is that right?
Third player to get the MVP?
Speaker 8 (37:37):
Durant Westbrook and SGA.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting. I heard Stephen A say that
Sam Presty was a failure because they haven't won a
championship despite all the players. It's I mean, I greatly
disagree with it, but it actually is a discussion. It's like, Okay,
it is a discussion
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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