June 23, 2025 • 51 mins
On a Monday edition of The Best Of The Doug Gottlieb Show: Doug breaks down game seven of the NBA Finals, how the Thunder won, and what it means.
Doug welcomes former NBA Player and FSR NBA Analyst Ryan Hollins onto the show to talk about Tyler Haliburton, the Thunder and all of the headlines around the NBA. Doug welcomes Dr. Alan Shamrock onto the show to get his expertise on Achilles injuries.
Doug offers up his best guess on why there has been a rash of Achilles injuries in basketball and in sports.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlieb
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
three to five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio.
Find your local station for The Doug Gottlieb Show at
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Doug Gottlieb Show Fox Sports Radio coming to you from
(00:25):
one coast and from the Midwest. Obviously, the boys are
happily enjoying a beautiful summer in southern California, whereas the
rest of US Midwest East Coast got the heat Dome.
Heat Dome still over the Midwest and it is hot
and sticky outside. Welcome in. This is the Doug Gotleib Show,
the the Oaklhom City Thunder or your NBA Champions and
(00:47):
Tyre's Haliburton towards Achilles ten Right. I mean, there's some
other stuff we can talk about, but that's really that's
kind of the show today. Rick Bucker is going to
join us twenty five after the hour. Kevin Durrant was
traded over the weekend, and I actually love Kevin Durant's
Kevin Durant's statement yesterday right, which is he and Kay
(01:12):
Adams caught up with KD. We'll play that for you
next hour. Ryan Hollins will be our guest, so mostly
an NBA show, NBA show today. I'm getting ready for
the NBA Draft, which is Wednesday night. It happens really
really quickly, and the thunder have a couple of picks.
I will caution you with the idea of like it's
(01:32):
a dynasty, dynasty it let's just here's the way I
think it should work. Okay, here's the way I think
it should work. It should work in a way in
which we go. You know, they're positioned to be competitive
at the top of the league for the next half
(01:55):
decade if things go right. There you go, it's positioned.
They're positioned to be competitive at the top of the
league for the next four or five years if things
go right. And to anyone who says, you know, listen,
a new salary cap, the new you know, the new
(02:17):
salary cap, it's it's a dynasty killer or they're the
ones best position. That sounds great, but we don't know,
you know. And again you can go back historically back
when the Boston Celtics, you know, back when the Boston
Celtics had the Len Bias draft pick. Len Bias was
(02:40):
supposed to be the guy who reinvigorated them after Bill
Walton retired. You know, Larry Bird was starting, he was
his body was starting to break down, right, Robert Parrish
was getting old. And then len Bias tragically died from
a cocaine overdose the night after the NBA Draft, Like
it's crazy. Lewis gosh, what was his name? He played
(03:07):
also for the Celtics. Remember he was there. Reggie Lewis
passed away heart issue. He dies, right, So there have
been teams. The Chicago Cubs broke, you know, broke the curse, right,
broke the curse of the Billy Goat. They were supposed
to be a dynasty. And I can tell you because
(03:28):
I had a friend on that team, is like, we're
never winning another one again. These guys hate each other.
They're all so young and full of ego, and they
went on a victory tour and it's never going to
be the same. It never has been. And I'd like
to think that these thunder are different. Right, they're young,
(03:51):
they didn't even know how to open the champagne bottles
last night? How great a story was that? Did you
guys hear that? Like the champagne bottles weren't popping, and
they're like, we guys, you know you won the championship
and like, somebody get Caruso in here. We don't know
how to pop champagne bottles. What that's the greatest thing
I've ever heard. But money and fame and attention can
(04:15):
change people. And I'll give you an example. They can
extend Chet Holmer in this summer, give him a max
extension if they want, you know, on his rookie contract,
would you I wouldn't. I lost all confidence in his
jump shot. And but he's got some stuff to him.
He's gonna you feel like he's gonna get better, but
(04:38):
you don't know. So if you give him the max contract,
god forbid, he gets hurt, that changes things. Or if
he loses his jump shot altogether. He had a big
one last night. Now what if you don't give him
the big contract? Does he hold that against you? And
he can't at some point can't wait to get out
of town, right, Everyone says, they just think, oh, they
(05:00):
got everybody in the roster. To back next year. Like,
that's not the way it works with men. Definitely doesn't
work on that way women. Men aren't much better. It's
not like we're not Caddy. We don't want more. You
don't get to be an NBA player but not want more.
You're like, well, lou Dort was undrafted, so he should
that's great. It sounds like he should just be, you know,
(05:20):
fat girl, the problem happy to be there. That's not
the way the world always works. You have super competitive
men and they want more and like, hey, I won
my championship. Great now I want to get rich. But
they have positioned themselves as well for this as anybody
possibly could, and they have draft picks. They're in a
(05:43):
great shape. They're opening a new arena in a couple
of years, so the franchise will continue to just make
a ton of money. But I harken back. You know,
the head of iHeart, of course, iHeart owns Fox Sports Radio.
Stug Gotle the show here on Fox Sports Video is
the guy that did the behind the scenes behind the
(06:03):
music VH one behind the music, which they need to
bring those back or do those Jase two you I
don't watch them now. I don't watch VH one. Now,
I don't even know what exists. Does VH one still exist?
I have no idea. I'm guessing no, Sam, That's that
feels like a Sam question. Sam, does VH one exist?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Get on the computer? A mistake?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
You get on your old computer and uh type tip
things in.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I don't know. I don't know either, Jason, VH one
does exist?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay, yes, okay? Do you guys remember behind the musics? Absolutely,
they were great. They were great, and it would all
be the same. Like there's a group of you know,
group of punk rockers from this you know, from the
San Fernando Valley, and they all got together and they
kicked the drummer out. They brought a new drummer and
(06:55):
he had a rad sound, and they released an album
and they just blew up. Next thing, you know, they're
playing in state and then you know, the bassist had
a terrible cocaine problem that the drummer slept with the
lead singer's wife, you know, and it just all came
apart and they all went to rehab. And now they're
trying to get the band back together and they're releasing
an album and no one's ever, never, ever heard from again, Right,
(07:16):
how'd I do? Guys? Is that about?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Is that about how it worked? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I'd say so.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, And most of the stories all start to say
and they all are like, man, they're just a bunch
of kids. Just play some music. And they got together
and they had this sound, like Wow, that's really cool,
Like what if I do this? And then what if
you do that? And I do this? And I was like,
oh my god. And then the recent album then they
had this big song and then they built up and
then there's always this peak and then something goes wrong
because of ego or a lot of times it's drugs,
(07:42):
let's be honest. But you know, pat Riley calls it
the disease of me. I think this is going to
be the most amazing And I do want to get
to Dan what you talked about on your show yesterday,
which is this is the worst champion of our lifetime
in terms of level of overall quality of basketball, level
(08:03):
of play. Right, you're not talking about them as people. Well,
I just want to make sure to can Yeah, I'm
not personally, you don't if that's.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Something comments about today's NBA State.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Of the NBA totally fair, Okay, again, I don't know
if I agree with it. I want to get to it,
but that's not the point. The point is that let's
not fall into that trap of going like, all right,
murder dynasty because pat Riley calls it the disease of
me and all it basically is, you know, it's really
(08:34):
hard to make in this world. I kind of think
it's even harder to have that same level of hunger
and do it again, right, same level of hunger and
do it again. You know, it's one of the things
that I'm I'm blown away by by so many guys
whose sons are really good players, and they you know,
(08:59):
I saw good friend of mine's, Raja Bell and Raja's
older son Dia signed with has just won the Elite
eleven okay, And I coached his younger son in Au
before I got this job. And he's a stud too,
as great kid.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Now.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Raja grew up with very little and bounced around, played
in every minor league in different countries, and then made
it and he became like the Kobe Stopper. His kids,
they've grown up in affluence in Florida. He had this
beautiful setup to work out to play whatever, and I
think in many ways, it's harder to be the kid
(09:38):
who has everything and have the hunger and desire that
matches up with the kids who have nothing. Right. I mean,
I got a scholarship to college, and it wasn't the
total motivation. But my dad came to me and is like, look, dude,
you know Grandpa helped me out with your brother and sister.
(09:59):
I just you know, if you can't get a D
one scholarship, you're gonna have to go to a state school,
maybe a junior college, and we'll figure it out. And
I was like, bro, no chance, I'm hoping. I want
to get out. And I didn't grow up in the
I'm i gonna sit here and say I grew up
bullets whizzing. But it was lower middle lower middle class, Orange, California,
(10:21):
right next to Barrio Medina, and I made it. But
the point is that I do find myself really really
appreciating kids that grew up in actual affluence and make
it in a sport like basketball against the hunger and
desire of people who have nothing. They don't have a
pot to pee in or a window to throw it
out of. And that's because it's really hard when everybody
(10:43):
says yes, it's not that hard to work when everybody
says no, when people call you soft, when people think
you're not good enough, and that's what people thought with
this Oklahoma City team. Look, I don't like the flopping.
I mean the lou Dort flopp at the end of
the first half. It's a big play. It's a big play.
I mean, ultimately, Oklahoma City, especially without Tyre's Halliburton, it
was going to be hard. And I just I think
(11:07):
there's a bunch of different layers to last night's game
which we can get into, which was not particularly well
portrayed or maybe analyzed. I mean the TJ McConnell thing.
He went on this run where he scored like ten
straight points. Meanwhile he bookended it with like five turnovers,
which so it doesn't actually the ten points. It became
a zero sum or probably even a negative during that
(11:27):
time in the third quarter they were all two pointers.
Meanwhile Oklahoma City's making threes and then the turnovers. You
can't turn the ball over. That's why Olahoma City had
so many more shots. And sometimes basketball is just a
game of who gets more shots. How do you get
more shots? You get more possessions. How do you get
more possessions? Offensive rebounds and turnovers and steals, that's it.
(11:51):
But I just I want to be cautious over the
Let's not undersell them. I do think that Dan's underselling
them a little bit, and I'll get to why, but
let's not over sell theom go like, man, this is
a dynasty. They got all these pictures, they call all
this money they caught everybody back like, yeah, it sounds
really really good, but you come back next year and
chet is supposed to take another step, okay, but that
(12:13):
other step that means somebody else's growth is probably gonna
be minimized. You know. I think Caruso is gonna play
hard no matter what I do. I you know. And
I think Jalen Williams will continue to get more and
more consistent, But I don't know if he'll ever be
a star as much as a Robin or it. Does
he like that role or eventually does as much as
(12:35):
Jala Wims is an awesome dude, like I covered him
with at Santa Claric. Just an incredible guy. But there
are times in which now you go like, hey, you know,
I don't want Shade to be so deballa dumb like
I want. I want to score thirty. And as much
as we say, hey, they're gonna always going to be
the same guy because they have great character, money, success, attention,
(13:01):
all these things can can change people. So I'm fascinated
to see what happens now from Okoma City Thunder. Okay,
now let's get to that discussion real quick, buyer, do
you want to make your case if you would, well,
why this Oklahoma City team? Again, I listened to it,
(13:23):
but you know I'm not our audience. Why is this
the worst team? No, we don't have to replay it.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
He's right here.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, why is this the worst team in your lifetime
to win an NBA.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
This is Yeah, this is not specific to Oklahoma City.
Even though it's specific to Oklahoma City. I said it
a month ago, and when we didn't know who was
going to win the NBA title at that time, and
it could have been a variety of teams. But when
we actually had this discussion on your show, which you
also disagreed with me then about it. My point was
(13:54):
I don't think that this specific Oklahoma City team would
match up to any of the Laker teams. Of the
two thousands or the Bulls teams of the nineties, and
when we would look at what we've got in recent history,
I think that the Raptors team of twenty nineteen is
better matched up with this Oklahoma City team. Again, at
(14:14):
the time, if they were to win it, and now
we can make that comparison, I think that the Warriors
team of twenty twenty two the Bucks of twenty twenty
one were better teams than this makeup of Oklahoma City,
which also is a reflection on what I think of
the league as an entire league. So while you'll say
(14:34):
they have the best record in the league, I actually
think that it's a watered down league than to what
those other teams had to go through in previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, here's who I think they match up with. Okay,
the what was the first Warriors team? What year was
that the first war twenty fifteen? Okay, twenty fifteen Warriors.
Let me paint the picture for you. They had a
breakthrough player who played differently than other stars play. Is
(15:10):
that a fair way again, I know we can sit
there and go steph. Okay, so he played differently. Okay.
They had a young number two star guy who was
you know, by the way, you know, came out of
Washington State who had yet to be proven. Okay, and
(15:31):
people thought he was good, but he had limitations in
Clay Thompson, is that fair?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, for the sake of your argument, yes, I think
there's more to Clay, but yes, okay, but.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Again, at at the time, time, at the time, at
the time, Clay was a very good defender and an
incredible shooter. Incredible shooter, but he was not considered a
Hall of Famer at the time. Then they had Draymond Green,
who provided them their toughness. He was an undersize, could
guard anybody guy who did everything but score. Right, He
(16:09):
was a second round pick who lost a bunch of
weight and made himself into this unbelievable weapon who could
dominate a game without scoring. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Sure? Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Okay? And uh Now, then off the bench, they had
another team, a former like twenty, a game guy who
had to remake himself into just the perfect role player
to go along with those guys, they had all these
different pieces. Okay, again, I don't think Chet Holmgren will
(16:43):
have the impact of a of a Draymond Green, but
Chet the what Chet Holmgren they think ultimately can be.
Is this rare guy who's so long and agile enough
that he can defend all five positions while defending the rim.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, that's the future. That's not twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I got it. I got it. But we're looking at
Draymond Green through a lens of today for what he was.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Would you take Draymond that day or Chet now like
on this day, Draymond, Yes, would you take Clay on
that day or would you take Jalen Williams today? You
did Clay? You know you would.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You would you take Steph then on that day in
twenty fifteen, then you would take Shay right now?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And that's my point is and then if they run
off four championships, this is gonna be the worst game
bo getting hard champions.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I got it, I got it. But remember, okay, what
happened with that team and why did they win? They
were playing that They're playing the Cleveland Cavaliers and Kyrie
Irving torp is knee in the first game and they
and they went to overtime A one. That's the series
still went six. Okay, And if you remember that year,
every team they played their point guard missed at least
(17:54):
two of the games on the other team, right they uh,
Damian Lillard, mystic couple.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But I get the argument and and and just for
time constraints. I think that you would have one against
the Bucks, and and and whatnot. But then to your
point of we're taking the bottom of the bottom. And
my whole point in this is that this is what
the NBA is now, I got it. And it's gotten
worse and worse and worse each year. So now here
we have an Oklahoma City team that barely got past
(18:22):
the fourth seed in the East, that needed their best
player to go down with the you know, torn Achilles
in Game seven to win the series. And that's like
it's an overall thing. It.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I know, it took them seven games to beat the Nuggets,
and Aaron Gordon was hurt, Yes Nuggets. Nuggets had fired
their gentle manager and fired their coach and had no bench.
I get it. I get it. It's really interesting. I
didn't say it's a terrible take. I didn't. I'm not
going to sit here, and I know it's not personal.
I think it's interesting, and I do think that if
they go and win another championship, people are going to
say you're wrong, but you might not be wrong even
(18:57):
if you even if they win a championship later on, because.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I think the twenty twenty sixth thunder would be better
than the twenty twenty five thunder.
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Speaker 4 (19:18):
To the ball by top jump with Shay weaving his
way down the lane side that the defender lays it
up and laser in on What a maneuver by Jamon Williams.
He played the road with Ay and now plays the ground.
Go get It, Doug under fifty six the pace for
fifty one Time Out Indiana.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
This is the best of the Done dot Leaf Show
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Doug Gottlieb Show, Fox Sports Radio. Surely if the short
podcast be going, I have you be misseding today's show?
What you got the podcast? Just search Dug Gotbery for
your podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review the
podcast again. Just search Doug Gottabery weet your podcast. Uh,
let's welcome in Ryan Hollins. He's our Fox Sports Radio
NBA analyst's former NBA A player, and he is also
(20:03):
the color analyst for the Houston Rockets TV Network. He
joins me on the Doug Gottlieb Show. Ryan. Let's let's
let's start with the the Achilles thing. It's happened in
football too, and guys used to play eighty two games.
They do not now, So I don't I don't think
(20:23):
it's just a basketball thing. I don't think it's a
too many games thing because they actually most of these
guys don't play as many games as they used to play.
What do you think is behind so many of these
achilles ten in tears?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
You're ready, you're ready for my answer? Don Yes, obviously clearing,
guys have to take care of their body. Oh, that's
first and foremost. Your Your body is your temple. You
cannot avoid that, and it is it is a business. Also,
you know, the game is played at a pace that
has never been played at before. And in my strong,
(21:01):
strong opinion, let's get to the nuts and bolts of it. Also,
the skill set of the NBA player has gone up,
and the moves that these guys make to create separation
puts a different torque on your body than it did
in the past. So, Doug, as a point guard, what
were you taught one of the keyst moves you would
(21:21):
have done?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Right?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Wonderable pull up right, wondrible pull up right one, drible
pull up left, right, wonderbul hard drive at your defender,
pull up and shoot. You know what these guys are
drilled on now, step backs, step, back, side step. Those
moves put in the immense amount of torque on your body.
You have to train for those moves. They're not training
(21:43):
for those moves. They are doing it on top of
the abundance of games that they are playing. As for
a star player, these guys are going through these moves.
I mean hundreds of times per night if you are
a young teams per practice for game. That's a huge
part of it. So now the science and technology has
(22:04):
to fix to where you know, these guys are going
to be sufficiently trained to make a lot of these
moves and so know it real quick. I will say this,
the superstar players that the role players are doing these
moves now, where this was just superstar players making those
moves in the past.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Okay, except for uh my pushback would be this. Okay,
that move edition of the step back, and you're you're
not as old as I am. Do you know who
really invented the step back?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Talk to me, Talk to me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Ucla legend, Kiki van Duy. It used to be called
when I was your kid, it used to be called
a kiki, right, and then the guy, the guy who
perfected it with Steph Curry again and again. I understand
limited sample size. You're talking about two guys, neither of
them toward their achilles. It is interesting you talk about
step two, who three who did tear their achilles? The
(23:05):
throw all three in the playoffs. I mean Damian Lillard,
he's a side step and step back. Same thing with
Jason Tatum, same thing obviously with with with Haliburn. But
why does it happen in football? Why has it happened
to running backs in football? I gotta think it's got
to be how we're building guy's bodies. Because even Lillard,
like Lillard boxes in the offseason, right, he takes care
(23:27):
of his body. Jason Tatum takes care of like those
guys take really good care of their bodies. I'm just
wondering if it's not how we're building our muscle and
if we're training the achilles, if we're training the ligaments
and the tendants as much as we're training the big muscles.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Let me, let me slip this back to you at first,
and also keeping the way that Kiki did this step
back was different because of his size. Okay, these are
different moves now. Because there's sport going forward, there's court
going back, and there there's sport going back forward. How
many guys or how many drills have you ever seen
(24:05):
guys train that. You've seen them work on defensive slides.
You've seen band movements, you've seen side steps, but you
haven't seen that movement. That movement's not being trained.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I think it is. But okay, okay, I mean no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Stay with me.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
But we we trained sideways, we trained forward. But how
many times have you seen forward back and then back
forward because you've got to stay on balance into your shot. Never,
I've never seen it. Train, Doug. It's something you're gonna have.
It have to add into it.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You're talking about you're you're talking about training with you're
talking about training with with like like weights and like
workout not on.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
The absolutely those actual movements, and we do all those
movements for everything else. But it's such a prevalent part
of the game, and we're not addressing it correct. We're
getting We're getting real nerdy right now, Doug.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
We're really can no no, no, no, no, Honestly, this is way
more interesting than anything else. It's just way more interesting.
Like it completely changed the playoffs, right, Jason Tinman doesn't
get hurt. I don't think the Pacers get there right,
and or the you know, I don't know if the
Knicks close him out. It's it's very easy to go like,
oh yeah, the Knicks were dominating that series anyway, there
(25:20):
win that game anyway, like I maybe for sure or
or you know, or maybe not right, and you know,
Lillard doesn't get hurt. The whole playoffs are different. They
just are so. And then of course last night's game,
it's and it's interesting. You know, Kirk Cousins just tore
his Aaron Rodgers the year before his kid named Jalen Moore,
who's was at Oklahoma, who's getting ready for the NBA
(25:42):
draft just tore his you know, and he's a he's
a wing, he's not a guard. So I'm just it's
super interesting. Uh oh, it was interesting until he hung
up on us. That's that that we'll we'll get him back.
Here's what we're gona We're gonna take quick. Oh he's back. Okay, Uh,
I don know.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'm here. I don't know this guy. But but here's
the thing, Doug with Lillard, you know, he came back
too soon from the clock. He probably is conditioning whatever
it was was it there. We knew Aliburn shouldn't been
out there, bro.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
So so those.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Two you can kind of see coming. It's it's Tatum
is the one. We're questioning it and why he's happening,
And like Doug, like you can't hide anymore. Like like
like back in the day, if the barn the ploutguard
had to be a he had to pick up ninety
four feet, Doug. And then if you are injured, go
gard the spot up shooting in the corner, more spot
(26:32):
up shooters, Doug. Nie Smithton's running off screens and making
plays like like like the other guys will be topping
his hidden step back threes, Miles Turners. You can't hide
in the NBA no more, Doug. That's the reality. And
then you gotta be busy on the other hand making
those plays, and that's what these guys are getting hurt.
(26:54):
Get hide.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Ryan Hollis, I guess you're on Doug out show on
Fox Sports Radio is Oklahoma City. How would you rate
them in terms of champions in comparison to other champions
in our lifetime?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Who dog? That's that's so? Because I can't, I cannot.
Speaker 7 (27:16):
I cannot have this nostalgic bias towards Kobe Bryant, towards
Michael Jordan, towards Larry Bird, towards Lebron James because these.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Kids are young and I haven't seen them the way
they've done it before. I cannot deny the numbers. Although
I'm not ready to jump off a bridge for SGA,
but I cannot deny the season that he has had
and the way that he's gotten busy against every team
in the league. No, he hasn't done it the way
that I've loved it. But did Kobe Bryant falbate? Of course?
You know, if you guard Kobe in your hand was
(27:47):
in a fookie jar. It was gonna draw that you
knew if you're too close to Kobe and.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Is different though it's different. Though it's different though like
what he does, there's a difference between driving in and
creating contact and grabbing somebody pulling them into you, you know,
I mean, it's it's different than anybody who says all
these guys shot free throwers, none of them would grab
somebody's arm, pull them into them, and then throw up
their hands and pretend they.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Were fould I agree, I agree, you're not wrong. I
don't want to pull away from them, but I don't
want to puintalize this guy. I'm in between Doug and
I need to see him do it two or three
more times before I'm just fall in. And I think
the chance for him to have to do it is
not And keep in mind, like the ball was in
(28:34):
his hands for the majority of it, Like it wasn't
like you know, like he took knights off and jayl
Williams had that one forty point game and they were
really good to pay like for the most part, when
they need, like the balls in his hands to me
the key for it to continue to move forward the
way it does. That will continue to sell me, because
I like, I'm not fully sold, but I'm sold. I
(28:56):
got respect for what he does. I don't want to
take away from SGA. The thing that will tell me
is the improvement of Chet Holgering. And I think that
as he puts on weight, he continues to get stronger.
He's the guy that creates a dynasty for Oklahoma City
right now. If he's planning against a big if he
has to rebound against somebody with size, he can get
(29:16):
thrown around a little bit. But if he can play
in space, he's beaten shots off the glass. Dude, he
can shoot, he can dribble. There's a lot that Check
can do. I think Checks that unicorn, okay, that takes
them to the next level that makes it a dynasty
or not. If Check doesn't get in line, it will
not be a dynasty, it will not be something we'll
be talking about for ages. I think they can be beatable.
(29:39):
Check's the guy that makes them unbeatable. That's where I
lean into Oklahoma City even stronger. But if Chet doesn't
put on strength, if Check is not able to guard
big or.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, or if he can't make shots and he made
more last night, but he's lost his comments. Hey, Ryan,
you're the best. I'm actually we're gonna throw on dot
Alan Shamrock, who's works for Pavel works with the Packers
in a second and get his thoughts on it. But
I really appreciate you join us, and let's let's talk
after the draft.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Okay, anytime, Doug, all right.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Let's welcome in doctor Alan Shamrock. He joins us now
on the Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports. TRADIERO. He's
an orthopedic sports medicine foot and ankle surgeon and doctor Shamrock.
Thanks so much for joining us. Okay, so thanks for
having me. Yeah, I mean you and I just talked
about this earlier today. So it's not just basketball, right
(30:32):
Aaron Rodgers, Kirk Cousins. Granted they're a little older, but
there's been some younger players. There's a young college player,
Jalen Moore was at Oklahoma basketball player in a pre
draft workout towards achilles tenant. It does feel like again
feels you know, the numbers more, you know, it feels
like there's more of these higher volume of Achilles ten
and tears than previously at high level sports is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I would say so.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
I mean, I would say, just generally speaking, in the
population as the whole, there's certainly more Achilles ten ruptures.
I feel like, I know we're talking about lease athletes here,
but they're also happening in increasing numbers in the forty
fifty sixty year olds, and I think a lot of
that has to do with the popularity of pickleball.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, pickleball is a killer, right. You see pickleball dudes
go down. You're like, okay, so what do you think? Like,
you work on feet and ankles for a living. This
is what you do. What's your best guess on why
there's a higher volume of them than previously.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
Yeah, I mean it's really been interesting. I think that
the spike at the professional level on a national stage
has certainly gotten a whole lot of people interested. I
think that kind of delving into the Orthentedic literature what's
been published so far, there's never been a link between
having a prior calf injury or a calf strain increasing
(31:55):
your chance of having your Achilles tendon pop. I will
say though that I mean the calf up of two muscles,
the gas stock, the solely as they come together to
form the Achilles tendon, and the muscle and the tendon
function is one unit. And I think it passes the
common sense test that if that particular muscle tendon unit
(32:15):
is seeing a particular load and a portion of that
muscle is compromised and can't take that load, that load
has to.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Go somewhere, okay, So let me let me, let me
help people out here, and you tell me if this
is okay. So I trained with a guy, mart Murnovitch.
He was an incredible strength and conditioning coach in southern California.
And what we would do is we wouldn't just work
the gastric. We would work the solace, okay, which is
the little muscle. Right. And so but when you go
into a gym, okay, people do calf races, they do everything,
(32:47):
it's all for the gastric. They don't do for the solace.
And so there's an imbalance there is that what's behind
any of this that they're working, they're not working both
muscles and the ligaments and tendons.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
Yeah, I mean, to your point, it's certainly important to
strengthen both because, like I said, they work in conjunction
with one another, I will say, playing Devil's advocate, no
one has ever demonstrated that any sort of asymmetry between
the two can be increasing your risk of having your
your your tendon tear. But I mean it's certainly been
(33:21):
a very interesting thought.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Last thing is this and doctor Alan Shamrocks joining us
here on the Doug Gottlieb Show. He works for Pravea.
He's the foot and ankle surgeon for the Green Bay
Packers as well as for the Green Bay Phoenix, and
he joins us here in the Doug Goatlib Show on
Fox Sports Radio doc the rehab process. We have seen
(33:46):
players at football players come back sooner from it than previously.
How different is the surgery now from when you first
got into medicine.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Yeah, I mean the surgical techniques has certainly changed quite
a bit. I think previously we're making large incisions on
the back of people's ankles, which brought a lot of
wound problems a concern for infection, and that's gone away
with more of the minimally and based in surgical techniques
using smaller incisions and then various jigs the pass suitures
(34:16):
through the tendon where you don't even have to really
look at the tendon itself, and I think that is
a had the rehab process speed up relative to what
we've been doing maybe a decade decade and a half ago.
I will say though, that rehab for Achilles, it just
takes a long time. I mean, I still counsel people
in the community that I mean it's going to be
(34:39):
nine to twelve months before you're back to doing whatever
sport you're doing before this happened. And then at the
collegiate a professional level, I think it's from the order
of seven to nine.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well, the great Achilles had one weakness, it was his heel,
and you are a man who fixes those that Achilles heel. Doc,
Thanks so much for joining us. Incredible insight, and I
just I really appreciate your time absolutely.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Sports Radio dot com and within the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Hey, what up with you Doug Gottlieb Show Fox Sports Radio.
Hope you're having a great day. The Doug Gottlieb Show
is coming to you live and direct. This is like,
I don't know what it is. Year twenty of the
show crazy crazy, be doing this a long time. You
can you can download our show. You can listen to
it in the podcast form. We have the special hour
only podcast, Got some Stuff off my Chest in today's podcast.
(35:38):
Boys don't know how much was cleaned up and at it,
but you'll find it interesting. For forty years, Tyrek has
been helping customers find the right tires for how, what
and where they drive. Ship fast and free and back
by free road ass protection with convenient installation options like
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be okay. Coming up next to the coming up on
the Doug Gotlib Show, we got Kevin Durant going to
the Rockets. Tay what I think. Ryan Hollins covers the
(36:00):
Rockets and he's our Fox Sports Radio NBA analyst. He'll
join us and we'll talk about it. Let me, let's
have a little discussion here. And I'm bummed at Dan's
Camera's not working because I do love and we tell
you you can watch highlights of this show on YouTube.
I like having like a conversation with Dan because he's
(36:21):
been doing this a long time too. I'm not a
prisoner of the moment. I've watched this happen plenty of
times recently to know at least a little bit more
about what I'm talking about in regards to injuries and
(36:47):
this new kind of scourge of Achilles tendon injuries that
is going around all of basketball but also all of sports.
Here's what I mean. So last night, Tyre's Haliburton tear's
his Achilles tendon. And first I just now we also
(37:14):
and I think it goes back to the Kevin Durant
and then onto the Aaron Rodgers, where we now know
what it looks like, right, like everybody staring at the
calf and then you see the calf kind of explode
and then you can almost see the Achilles recoil and
you're like, oh, I knew what that is. I know
(37:34):
what that is. And there were two moments this weekend
which I do think I could be wrong. You're going
to remember I don't know where you were, but your
reaction right when the President, when we found out that
the President had bombed I ran, I guarantee all of
you were like, well I was. I remember I was
(37:54):
in at the Champion Center in Appleton, Wisconsin, watching high
school kids play at this recruiting event, and you know
all asod. I look at my phone and some of
my friends had sent me memes. I'm like, I don't
even know, Like what's the matter with you? Like what
are you talking about? And then I got in my
car and I'm driving and Buddy, Michael Kitty, you believe it,
and then we start talking about it. Anyway, I think
(38:18):
you're gonna remember the NBA Finals, maybe for Halliburton's game
winner in Game one, I guess because of the thunder
winning in Game seven. But I think the most memorable
moment is going to be tearing his achilles tendon. And
I've the great thing about this show is it starts
(38:40):
at three on the East, noon in the West, and
it gives some really talented people like Dan Patrick, like
Colin Cowherd, two Pros and a cup of Joe a
chance to speak their mind and then we can either
react to that, echo their thoughts or maybe look at
things a little bit differently. This is not a basketball thing,
(39:02):
it's a sports thing. And you're like, well, I just
you know, we watched Jason Tatum, we watched Damian Lillard,
we watched uh Tyrese Haliburton. Uh those are all basketball players.
They just tore their Achilles tenant. I'll add to it
that in the last week, Jalen Moore, who played basketball
at Georgia Tech and then Oklahoma, he was doing pre
draft workouts. He tours Achilles tennont. So the the difference
(39:27):
is it used to be an injury where Dominiquilkins late
in his career towards Achilles tennant. It used to be
one where the wear and tear of a long career.
Maybe that's it gets brittle. It's just overused and just
goes right. It's like the rubber band that gets pulled, pulled,
pull pull, pull pull pull, then finally all right. But
(39:48):
let's let let's let's hit the all of the different
things first. Don't do that. It's the vaccination thing because
Aaron Rodgers toward his that it. It's and I don't
know if if Kirk Cousins was vaccinated or not. I
guess as he wasn't. So let's stop with the vaccine thing.
Are we okay with Chase stew Are you okay with
(40:10):
me going Vaccine's not it? I'm gonna go, yes, Vaccine's
not it. If we do the overuse thing, you're like, okay,
well they do play a couple more playoff games than
they used to. And they're like, well, the NBA playoffs
(40:32):
are so long. Well, they're so long because the games
are spaced out in order to give them more rest
than they used to have, because the NBA playoffs have
always gone into June, always, always, always, always, and they've
always played eighty two games, and players used to always
play eighty two games. And the medical treatment after the
(40:53):
games has gotten better, not worse. So I don't buy
the or they play more games they used to, not really.
Tyre's Halliburton plays many three games this year Jason Tatum,
and I know he and Halliberton were on the Olympic team,
but neither of them really played that much. Now there
is extensive work and whatever. But okay, Damian Lillard again.
(41:16):
Then you go to football, Uh, what was the what's
the running back of the Rams who a couple of
years ago towards Achilles ten camp Akers? Okay, I give
you Jalen Moore, I give you cam Akers. There's also
what's the guard who was San Antonio Atlanta tore his
this year? Right? Je Jonta Murray toars cost so it's
(41:41):
not age. I don't believe it's games played. Jeantay Murrie
played deep into the playoffs. He hadn't played a lot
of games.
Speaker 7 (41:47):
He's young.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Jayalen Moore's not played in the NBA. You know, I
played college basketball season, a couple of college bustible seasons.
I don't buy the it's the number of games things.
So I've heard people go like, well, it's the all
of them are when guys take that kind of reverse
step and then they push off, like so that people
just started doing that just now. No, that basketball has
(42:11):
always been stressed in your achilles tenon. And again quarterbacks
have always gone back and taken that negative step and
planted and thrown. There's always that pressure on achilles tendon.
Only now it seems like there's more guys. So it
wasn't the vaccine. Please stop with its low tops. Stop
(42:32):
with its low tops. There's never been a study that
shows that high tops protect you from anything, especially an
achilles tenant. To wear high tops, okay, and put your
toe down and plant, and there's zero difference, none in
the pressure on your achilles ten and wearing high tops.
(42:53):
There used to be a shoe and I'm a basketball shoe. Guy,
I've worn I tried them all, and I think Buyer
might be the only other human being in the world
who remembers this because he's also Midwest guy. Do you
remember there was the Converse weapons, but they also had
the why bar? Did you ever remember the y bar ones?
(43:15):
They were like weapons that had an ankle brace, almost
like inserted into it.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
No, No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, now remember Dan Marino towards Achilles tenon, right, So
it had happened before. It's just the volume of them,
and now it's not reserved for older players. Now you've
got younger players doing it. I don't believe it's the
stinkers because the sneker technology is way better. It doesn't
(43:42):
make any sense, right, I mean, like we used to
play Air Force ones. Used to be basketball sninkers. People
used to play in Air Force ones. I played Air
Force ones. By the way, air Force two remarkably underrated shoe. Okay,
but the technology wasn't better then than it is now,
so that doesn't make any sense. Please don't say it's Nike.
(44:06):
Haliburton was wearing pumas Lillard was wearing Adidas. So again,
let's in order to figure out what it is. We
have to cross off what it's not. I don't believe
it's too many games, because they're playing the same number
of regular season games only I don't know if any
of these guys play No nobody plays eighty two games anymore,
(44:27):
and they used to always play any two games, and
they didn't used to tear their achilles tenants. That doesn't
make any sense. They've added a handful of games to
the playoffs, right, first round used to be three, then
it was five, now it's seven. But again, guys have
torn their achilles tennants in the regular season. That doesn't
make any sense. You can say, well, these guys are
so much bigger and stronger of top top heavy Haliburton's not.
That doesn't make sense, right, So we're trying to get
(44:51):
to what it is. What it's not is. It's not vaccine,
it's not too many games, it's not the sneakers, and
it's also happened in football. I don't think it's nutrition
because people eat better than it what it was. So
(45:13):
here's my best guess. Okay, here's my best guess. I
think we're building bodies the wrong way.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
I do.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I think we're building bodies the wrong it's the only possible.
We're building by the wrong way. And then I think
there's a portion of it which I wonder. I don't know.
All of this is hypotheses, and I didn't pay attention
a lot in school. I'm not just sitting here trying
to brag. I do remember the difference between hypotheses and theory.
A theory is something that has proven scientifically through a study.
(45:43):
Hypothesis is something that you wonder that has some sort
of facts behind it, but it is yet to be
scientifically proven. My hypothesis for why there is just so
many recent Achilles ten and tears instead of one every
couple of years. Two Now, we've got three star players
in the playoffs, and I've gone through two star quarterbacks
(46:04):
the last two years. I've torn it, and we could
go through a litany of guys. It never happened before
at this volume. If you say it did, your lying.
But they're playing the same number of games in the
NBA at a couple of playoff games. That's it. I'm
torn in terms of the only play one sport thing, right,
(46:28):
because Aaron Rodgers didn't just play one sport. A lot
of these guys play multiple sports growing up, but there
is the specialization to it. So is it the specialization
and taking time off in the offseason that allows you
to build your body. Maybe maybe you know it trains
other muscles so it protects it. I guess that could
(46:49):
be it. I also think there's a part of me
that says basketball players now, when I played, and you know,
I finished playing college in two thousand finished playing professionally
in two thousand and three, okay, but when I played,
and how I was brought up with my dad, who
was a jay, was a walk on JV player in college,
(47:11):
is basketball players play basketball. I played basketball all the time,
even when I played baseball, even when I played football,
even when I played tennis. I would always play basketball
when I when I played in the summer, you'd go
home and yeah, I'd work out my dad and I
would shoot, but I would always play. You go up
to UCLA, you play pickup games. We go to Columbus
tust And gym and we get the guys. Or I'd
(47:33):
go down to to uh the Newport and now it's
pacifica Christian's gym, but it's the West Newport Gym. And
that was like Scottie Brooks and Todd Murphy and all
the U c Irvine guys that were pros. I'd hop
in with them or at Los Cabriiras. We played basketball
all the time. Yeah, we lift weights, we work with trainers,
but we played basketball. Now in the offseason, nobody plays
(47:56):
five on five very little. You know, you'll see those
there's that in I think it's like an LA Fitness
in New York, where they'll play a little bit, but
for the most part, everybody's got their trainer and everybody
does cone drills. And I'm not sure if that doesn't
build your body in a way along with the trainers
that is so sports specific and so that it's not
functioning like it functions in a game. Then you get
(48:18):
into a game and suddenly there's an imbalance. It's got
to be the way in which we're constructing these bodies.
They're more explosive, they have greater endurance, they have greater
loateral quickness, they're just better in terms of their performance,
but they also break down more. I don't think there's
anybody that can that can deny that. So my hypothesis
(48:41):
is it is not the vacs. It is not too
many games. And by the way, they're never gonna have
fewer games. Stop at Colin again. We've told you that before.
The one thing that sports is never going to do.
They're never going to take away games because that takes
away money. And it's not just the league, it's the players, like, Hey,
(49:01):
do you want to play less games?
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Do you want to make less money? Nope? It doesn't
work that way, But there is there's nothing that tells
us it's too many games. It's got to be something else.
And my best guess is how we construct bodies. I
am my trainer, who was Troy Palamalu's trainer, and others,
the late Marv Vinovich. Okay, anybody who's in sports note
(49:26):
Todd Marv was different, but Marve was incredible. He worked
on your ligaments and your tendons as well as your
nervous system and making it all together. I don't think
people do that. I think people work on balance, and
they work on explosiveness. They work on the big and
the little muscles, But I don't know if they work
on the ligaments and tents and how it all works together. Byer,
(49:46):
do you have any hypotheses you'd like to share? As
to what happens.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
No, And I just think that your at least expertise,
I don't know how you want to put it, your connections,
your job is much more educated than anything that I
could bring up. I just on a surface level, wondered
if you know, if it was a strength training thing
or a lack of strength training that we're going through,
(50:10):
is it? You know, were those sort of maybe reasons
why we're seeing it more. It's also funny too, is
I've mentioned on the show on Sunday of we now
kind of have this eerie feel when it comes to
a calf strain of what could happen. And while we
thought that Halliburton was, you know, made it through the
woods because he got through Game six, he obviously wasn't.
And I just think now going forward, yeah, we're going
(50:33):
to look at the injury even more differently than we
did entering this game seven. But it was already there
with Tatum and Lillard and Kevin Durant in twenty nineteen.
But you would know a lot more about it, especially
on how you know these athletes are training.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
I don't. I talked to I talked to doctor Shamrock
with the Packers today, and he told me, like you said,
they now believe that the calf strains it's a weakness.
They don't know whether the cap strain is really it's
really an Achilles strain or more he said, more likely.
It just means there's gonna be more pressure on the achilles,
and that's what leads to it. But again, what leads
(51:09):
to the more cap strains and the weaker Achilles or
all that pressure
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlieb
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
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(00:25):
one coast and from the Midwest. Obviously, the boys are
happily enjoying a beautiful summer in southern California, whereas the
rest of US Midwest East Coast got the heat Dome.
Heat Dome still over the Midwest and it is hot
and sticky outside. Welcome in. This is the Doug Gotleib Show,
the the Oaklhom City Thunder or your NBA Champions and
(00:47):
Tyre's Haliburton towards Achilles ten Right. I mean, there's some
other stuff we can talk about, but that's really that's
kind of the show today. Rick Bucker is going to
join us twenty five after the hour. Kevin Durrant was
traded over the weekend, and I actually love Kevin Durant's
Kevin Durant's statement yesterday right, which is he and Kay
(01:12):
Adams caught up with KD. We'll play that for you
next hour. Ryan Hollins will be our guest, so mostly
an NBA show, NBA show today. I'm getting ready for
the NBA Draft, which is Wednesday night. It happens really
really quickly, and the thunder have a couple of picks.
I will caution you with the idea of like it's
(01:32):
a dynasty, dynasty it let's just here's the way I
think it should work. Okay, here's the way I think
it should work. It should work in a way in
which we go. You know, they're positioned to be competitive
at the top of the league for the next half
(01:55):
decade if things go right. There you go, it's positioned.
They're positioned to be competitive at the top of the
league for the next four or five years if things
go right. And to anyone who says, you know, listen,
a new salary cap, the new you know, the new
(02:17):
salary cap, it's it's a dynasty killer or they're the
ones best position. That sounds great, but we don't know,
you know. And again you can go back historically back
when the Boston Celtics, you know, back when the Boston
Celtics had the Len Bias draft pick. Len Bias was
(02:40):
supposed to be the guy who reinvigorated them after Bill
Walton retired. You know, Larry Bird was starting, he was
his body was starting to break down, right, Robert Parrish
was getting old. And then len Bias tragically died from
a cocaine overdose the night after the NBA Draft, Like
it's crazy. Lewis gosh, what was his name? He played
(03:07):
also for the Celtics. Remember he was there. Reggie Lewis
passed away heart issue. He dies, right, So there have
been teams. The Chicago Cubs broke, you know, broke the curse, right,
broke the curse of the Billy Goat. They were supposed
to be a dynasty. And I can tell you because
(03:28):
I had a friend on that team, is like, we're
never winning another one again. These guys hate each other.
They're all so young and full of ego, and they
went on a victory tour and it's never going to
be the same. It never has been. And I'd like
to think that these thunder are different. Right, they're young,
(03:51):
they didn't even know how to open the champagne bottles
last night? How great a story was that? Did you
guys hear that? Like the champagne bottles weren't popping, and
they're like, we guys, you know you won the championship
and like, somebody get Caruso in here. We don't know
how to pop champagne bottles. What that's the greatest thing
I've ever heard. But money and fame and attention can
(04:15):
change people. And I'll give you an example. They can
extend Chet Holmer in this summer, give him a max
extension if they want, you know, on his rookie contract,
would you I wouldn't. I lost all confidence in his
jump shot. And but he's got some stuff to him.
He's gonna you feel like he's gonna get better, but
(04:38):
you don't know. So if you give him the max contract,
god forbid, he gets hurt, that changes things. Or if
he loses his jump shot altogether. He had a big
one last night. Now what if you don't give him
the big contract? Does he hold that against you? And
he can't at some point can't wait to get out
of town, right, Everyone says, they just think, oh, they
(05:00):
got everybody in the roster. To back next year. Like,
that's not the way it works with men. Definitely doesn't
work on that way women. Men aren't much better. It's
not like we're not Caddy. We don't want more. You
don't get to be an NBA player but not want more.
You're like, well, lou Dort was undrafted, so he should
that's great. It sounds like he should just be, you know,
(05:20):
fat girl, the problem happy to be there. That's not
the way the world always works. You have super competitive
men and they want more and like, hey, I won
my championship. Great now I want to get rich. But
they have positioned themselves as well for this as anybody
possibly could, and they have draft picks. They're in a
(05:43):
great shape. They're opening a new arena in a couple
of years, so the franchise will continue to just make
a ton of money. But I harken back. You know,
the head of iHeart, of course, iHeart owns Fox Sports Radio.
Stug Gotle the show here on Fox Sports Video is
the guy that did the behind the scenes behind the
(06:03):
music VH one behind the music, which they need to
bring those back or do those Jase two you I
don't watch them now. I don't watch VH one. Now,
I don't even know what exists. Does VH one still exist?
I have no idea. I'm guessing no, Sam, That's that
feels like a Sam question. Sam, does VH one exist?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Get on the computer? A mistake?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
You get on your old computer and uh type tip
things in.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I don't know. I don't know either, Jason, VH one
does exist?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay, yes, okay? Do you guys remember behind the musics? Absolutely,
they were great. They were great, and it would all
be the same. Like there's a group of you know,
group of punk rockers from this you know, from the
San Fernando Valley, and they all got together and they
kicked the drummer out. They brought a new drummer and
(06:55):
he had a rad sound, and they released an album
and they just blew up. Next thing, you know, they're
playing in state and then you know, the bassist had
a terrible cocaine problem that the drummer slept with the
lead singer's wife, you know, and it just all came
apart and they all went to rehab. And now they're
trying to get the band back together and they're releasing
an album and no one's ever, never, ever heard from again, Right,
(07:16):
how'd I do? Guys? Is that about?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Is that about how it worked? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I'd say so.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, And most of the stories all start to say
and they all are like, man, they're just a bunch
of kids. Just play some music. And they got together
and they had this sound, like Wow, that's really cool,
Like what if I do this? And then what if
you do that? And I do this? And I was like,
oh my god. And then the recent album then they
had this big song and then they built up and
then there's always this peak and then something goes wrong
because of ego or a lot of times it's drugs,
(07:42):
let's be honest. But you know, pat Riley calls it
the disease of me. I think this is going to
be the most amazing And I do want to get
to Dan what you talked about on your show yesterday,
which is this is the worst champion of our lifetime
in terms of level of overall quality of basketball, level
(08:03):
of play. Right, you're not talking about them as people. Well,
I just want to make sure to can Yeah, I'm
not personally, you don't if that's.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Something comments about today's NBA State.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Of the NBA totally fair, Okay, again, I don't know
if I agree with it. I want to get to it,
but that's not the point. The point is that let's
not fall into that trap of going like, all right,
murder dynasty because pat Riley calls it the disease of
me and all it basically is, you know, it's really
(08:34):
hard to make in this world. I kind of think
it's even harder to have that same level of hunger
and do it again, right, same level of hunger and
do it again. You know, it's one of the things
that I'm I'm blown away by by so many guys
whose sons are really good players, and they you know,
(08:59):
I saw good friend of mine's, Raja Bell and Raja's
older son Dia signed with has just won the Elite
eleven okay, And I coached his younger son in Au
before I got this job. And he's a stud too,
as great kid.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Now.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Raja grew up with very little and bounced around, played
in every minor league in different countries, and then made
it and he became like the Kobe Stopper. His kids,
they've grown up in affluence in Florida. He had this
beautiful setup to work out to play whatever, and I
think in many ways, it's harder to be the kid
(09:38):
who has everything and have the hunger and desire that
matches up with the kids who have nothing. Right. I mean,
I got a scholarship to college, and it wasn't the
total motivation. But my dad came to me and is like, look, dude,
you know Grandpa helped me out with your brother and sister.
(09:59):
I just you know, if you can't get a D
one scholarship, you're gonna have to go to a state school,
maybe a junior college, and we'll figure it out. And
I was like, bro, no chance, I'm hoping. I want
to get out. And I didn't grow up in the
I'm i gonna sit here and say I grew up
bullets whizzing. But it was lower middle lower middle class, Orange, California,
(10:21):
right next to Barrio Medina, and I made it. But
the point is that I do find myself really really
appreciating kids that grew up in actual affluence and make
it in a sport like basketball against the hunger and
desire of people who have nothing. They don't have a
pot to pee in or a window to throw it
out of. And that's because it's really hard when everybody
(10:43):
says yes, it's not that hard to work when everybody
says no, when people call you soft, when people think
you're not good enough, and that's what people thought with
this Oklahoma City team. Look, I don't like the flopping.
I mean the lou Dort flopp at the end of
the first half. It's a big play. It's a big play.
I mean, ultimately, Oklahoma City, especially without Tyre's Halliburton, it
was going to be hard. And I just I think
(11:07):
there's a bunch of different layers to last night's game
which we can get into, which was not particularly well
portrayed or maybe analyzed. I mean the TJ McConnell thing.
He went on this run where he scored like ten
straight points. Meanwhile he bookended it with like five turnovers,
which so it doesn't actually the ten points. It became
a zero sum or probably even a negative during that
(11:27):
time in the third quarter they were all two pointers.
Meanwhile Oklahoma City's making threes and then the turnovers. You
can't turn the ball over. That's why Olahoma City had
so many more shots. And sometimes basketball is just a
game of who gets more shots. How do you get
more shots? You get more possessions. How do you get
more possessions? Offensive rebounds and turnovers and steals, that's it.
(11:51):
But I just I want to be cautious over the
Let's not undersell them. I do think that Dan's underselling
them a little bit, and I'll get to why, but
let's not over sell theom go like, man, this is
a dynasty. They got all these pictures, they call all
this money they caught everybody back like, yeah, it sounds
really really good, but you come back next year and
chet is supposed to take another step, okay, but that
(12:13):
other step that means somebody else's growth is probably gonna
be minimized. You know. I think Caruso is gonna play
hard no matter what I do. I you know. And
I think Jalen Williams will continue to get more and
more consistent, But I don't know if he'll ever be
a star as much as a Robin or it. Does
he like that role or eventually does as much as
(12:35):
Jala Wims is an awesome dude, like I covered him
with at Santa Claric. Just an incredible guy. But there
are times in which now you go like, hey, you know,
I don't want Shade to be so deballa dumb like
I want. I want to score thirty. And as much
as we say, hey, they're gonna always going to be
the same guy because they have great character, money, success, attention,
(13:01):
all these things can can change people. So I'm fascinated
to see what happens now from Okoma City Thunder. Okay,
now let's get to that discussion real quick, buyer, do
you want to make your case if you would, well,
why this Oklahoma City team? Again, I listened to it,
(13:23):
but you know I'm not our audience. Why is this
the worst team? No, we don't have to replay it.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
He's right here.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, why is this the worst team in your lifetime
to win an NBA.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
This is Yeah, this is not specific to Oklahoma City.
Even though it's specific to Oklahoma City. I said it
a month ago, and when we didn't know who was
going to win the NBA title at that time, and
it could have been a variety of teams. But when
we actually had this discussion on your show, which you
also disagreed with me then about it. My point was
(13:54):
I don't think that this specific Oklahoma City team would
match up to any of the Laker teams. Of the
two thousands or the Bulls teams of the nineties, and
when we would look at what we've got in recent history,
I think that the Raptors team of twenty nineteen is
better matched up with this Oklahoma City team. Again, at
(14:14):
the time, if they were to win it, and now
we can make that comparison, I think that the Warriors
team of twenty twenty two the Bucks of twenty twenty
one were better teams than this makeup of Oklahoma City,
which also is a reflection on what I think of
the league as an entire league. So while you'll say
(14:34):
they have the best record in the league, I actually
think that it's a watered down league than to what
those other teams had to go through in previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, here's who I think they match up with. Okay,
the what was the first Warriors team? What year was
that the first war twenty fifteen? Okay, twenty fifteen Warriors.
Let me paint the picture for you. They had a
breakthrough player who played differently than other stars play. Is
(15:10):
that a fair way again, I know we can sit
there and go steph. Okay, so he played differently. Okay.
They had a young number two star guy who was
you know, by the way, you know, came out of
Washington State who had yet to be proven. Okay, and
(15:31):
people thought he was good, but he had limitations in
Clay Thompson, is that fair?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, for the sake of your argument, yes, I think
there's more to Clay, but yes, okay, but.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Again, at at the time, time, at the time, at
the time, Clay was a very good defender and an
incredible shooter. Incredible shooter, but he was not considered a
Hall of Famer at the time. Then they had Draymond Green,
who provided them their toughness. He was an undersize, could
guard anybody guy who did everything but score. Right, He
(16:09):
was a second round pick who lost a bunch of
weight and made himself into this unbelievable weapon who could
dominate a game without scoring. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Sure? Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Okay? And uh Now, then off the bench, they had
another team, a former like twenty, a game guy who
had to remake himself into just the perfect role player
to go along with those guys, they had all these
different pieces. Okay, again, I don't think Chet Holmgren will
(16:43):
have the impact of a of a Draymond Green, but
Chet the what Chet Holmgren they think ultimately can be.
Is this rare guy who's so long and agile enough
that he can defend all five positions while defending the rim.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, that's the future. That's not twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I got it. I got it. But we're looking at
Draymond Green through a lens of today for what he was.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Would you take Draymond that day or Chet now like
on this day, Draymond, Yes, would you take Clay on
that day or would you take Jalen Williams today? You
did Clay? You know you would.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You would you take Steph then on that day in
twenty fifteen, then you would take Shay right now?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And that's my point is and then if they run
off four championships, this is gonna be the worst game
bo getting hard champions.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I got it, I got it. But remember, okay, what
happened with that team and why did they win? They
were playing that They're playing the Cleveland Cavaliers and Kyrie
Irving torp is knee in the first game and they
and they went to overtime A one. That's the series
still went six. Okay, And if you remember that year,
every team they played their point guard missed at least
(17:54):
two of the games on the other team, right they uh,
Damian Lillard, mystic couple.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But I get the argument and and and just for
time constraints. I think that you would have one against
the Bucks, and and and whatnot. But then to your
point of we're taking the bottom of the bottom. And
my whole point in this is that this is what
the NBA is now, I got it. And it's gotten
worse and worse and worse each year. So now here
we have an Oklahoma City team that barely got past
(18:22):
the fourth seed in the East, that needed their best
player to go down with the you know, torn Achilles
in Game seven to win the series. And that's like
it's an overall thing. It.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I know, it took them seven games to beat the Nuggets,
and Aaron Gordon was hurt, Yes Nuggets. Nuggets had fired
their gentle manager and fired their coach and had no bench.
I get it. I get it. It's really interesting. I
didn't say it's a terrible take. I didn't. I'm not
going to sit here, and I know it's not personal.
I think it's interesting, and I do think that if
they go and win another championship, people are going to
say you're wrong, but you might not be wrong even
(18:57):
if you even if they win a championship later on, because.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I think the twenty twenty sixth thunder would be better
than the twenty twenty five thunder.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
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Speaker 4 (19:18):
To the ball by top jump with Shay weaving his
way down the lane side that the defender lays it
up and laser in on What a maneuver by Jamon Williams.
He played the road with Ay and now plays the ground.
Go get It, Doug under fifty six the pace for
fifty one Time Out Indiana.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
This is the best of the Done dot Leaf Show
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Doug Gottlieb Show, Fox Sports Radio. Surely if the short
podcast be going, I have you be misseding today's show?
What you got the podcast? Just search Dug Gotbery for
your podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review the
podcast again. Just search Doug Gottabery weet your podcast. Uh,
let's welcome in Ryan Hollins. He's our Fox Sports Radio
NBA analyst's former NBA A player, and he is also
(20:03):
the color analyst for the Houston Rockets TV Network. He
joins me on the Doug Gottlieb Show. Ryan. Let's let's
let's start with the the Achilles thing. It's happened in
football too, and guys used to play eighty two games.
They do not now, So I don't I don't think
(20:23):
it's just a basketball thing. I don't think it's a
too many games thing because they actually most of these
guys don't play as many games as they used to play.
What do you think is behind so many of these
achilles ten in tears?
Speaker 3 (20:38):
You're ready, you're ready for my answer? Don Yes, obviously clearing,
guys have to take care of their body. Oh, that's
first and foremost. Your Your body is your temple. You
cannot avoid that, and it is it is a business. Also,
you know, the game is played at a pace that
has never been played at before. And in my strong,
(21:01):
strong opinion, let's get to the nuts and bolts of it. Also,
the skill set of the NBA player has gone up,
and the moves that these guys make to create separation
puts a different torque on your body than it did
in the past. So, Doug, as a point guard, what
were you taught one of the keyst moves you would
(21:21):
have done?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Right?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Wonderable pull up right, wondrible pull up right one, drible
pull up left, right, wonderbul hard drive at your defender,
pull up and shoot. You know what these guys are
drilled on now, step backs, step, back, side step. Those
moves put in the immense amount of torque on your body.
You have to train for those moves. They're not training
(21:43):
for those moves. They are doing it on top of
the abundance of games that they are playing. As for
a star player, these guys are going through these moves.
I mean hundreds of times per night if you are
a young teams per practice for game. That's a huge
part of it. So now the science and technology has
(22:04):
to fix to where you know, these guys are going
to be sufficiently trained to make a lot of these
moves and so know it real quick. I will say this,
the superstar players that the role players are doing these
moves now, where this was just superstar players making those
moves in the past.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Okay, except for uh my pushback would be this. Okay,
that move edition of the step back, and you're you're
not as old as I am. Do you know who
really invented the step back?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Talk to me, Talk to me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Ucla legend, Kiki van Duy. It used to be called
when I was your kid, it used to be called
a kiki, right, and then the guy, the guy who
perfected it with Steph Curry again and again. I understand
limited sample size. You're talking about two guys, neither of
them toward their achilles. It is interesting you talk about
step two, who three who did tear their achilles? The
(23:05):
throw all three in the playoffs. I mean Damian Lillard,
he's a side step and step back. Same thing with
Jason Tatum, same thing obviously with with with Haliburn. But
why does it happen in football? Why has it happened
to running backs in football? I gotta think it's got
to be how we're building guy's bodies. Because even Lillard,
like Lillard boxes in the offseason, right, he takes care
(23:27):
of his body. Jason Tatum takes care of like those
guys take really good care of their bodies. I'm just
wondering if it's not how we're building our muscle and
if we're training the achilles, if we're training the ligaments
and the tendants as much as we're training the big muscles.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Let me, let me slip this back to you at first,
and also keeping the way that Kiki did this step
back was different because of his size. Okay, these are
different moves now. Because there's sport going forward, there's court
going back, and there there's sport going back forward. How
many guys or how many drills have you ever seen
(24:05):
guys train that. You've seen them work on defensive slides.
You've seen band movements, you've seen side steps, but you
haven't seen that movement. That movement's not being trained.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I think it is. But okay, okay, I mean no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Stay with me.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
But we we trained sideways, we trained forward. But how
many times have you seen forward back and then back
forward because you've got to stay on balance into your shot. Never,
I've never seen it. Train, Doug. It's something you're gonna have.
It have to add into it.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You're talking about you're you're talking about training with you're
talking about training with with like like weights and like
workout not on.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
The absolutely those actual movements, and we do all those
movements for everything else. But it's such a prevalent part
of the game, and we're not addressing it correct. We're
getting We're getting real nerdy right now, Doug.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
We're really can no no, no, no, no, Honestly, this is way
more interesting than anything else. It's just way more interesting.
Like it completely changed the playoffs, right, Jason Tinman doesn't
get hurt. I don't think the Pacers get there right,
and or the you know, I don't know if the
Knicks close him out. It's it's very easy to go like,
oh yeah, the Knicks were dominating that series anyway, there
(25:20):
win that game anyway, like I maybe for sure or
or you know, or maybe not right, and you know,
Lillard doesn't get hurt. The whole playoffs are different. They
just are so. And then of course last night's game,
it's and it's interesting. You know, Kirk Cousins just tore
his Aaron Rodgers the year before his kid named Jalen Moore,
who's was at Oklahoma, who's getting ready for the NBA
(25:42):
draft just tore his you know, and he's a he's
a wing, he's not a guard. So I'm just it's
super interesting. Uh oh, it was interesting until he hung
up on us. That's that that we'll we'll get him back.
Here's what we're gona We're gonna take quick. Oh he's back. Okay, Uh,
I don know.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'm here. I don't know this guy. But but here's
the thing, Doug with Lillard, you know, he came back
too soon from the clock. He probably is conditioning whatever
it was was it there. We knew Aliburn shouldn't been
out there, bro.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
So so those.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Two you can kind of see coming. It's it's Tatum
is the one. We're questioning it and why he's happening,
And like Doug, like you can't hide anymore. Like like
like back in the day, if the barn the ploutguard
had to be a he had to pick up ninety
four feet, Doug. And then if you are injured, go
gard the spot up shooting in the corner, more spot
(26:32):
up shooters, Doug. Nie Smithton's running off screens and making
plays like like like the other guys will be topping
his hidden step back threes, Miles Turners. You can't hide
in the NBA no more, Doug. That's the reality. And
then you gotta be busy on the other hand making
those plays, and that's what these guys are getting hurt.
(26:54):
Get hide.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Ryan Hollis, I guess you're on Doug out show on
Fox Sports Radio is Oklahoma City. How would you rate
them in terms of champions in comparison to other champions
in our lifetime?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Who dog? That's that's so? Because I can't, I cannot.
Speaker 7 (27:16):
I cannot have this nostalgic bias towards Kobe Bryant, towards
Michael Jordan, towards Larry Bird, towards Lebron James because these.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Kids are young and I haven't seen them the way
they've done it before. I cannot deny the numbers. Although
I'm not ready to jump off a bridge for SGA,
but I cannot deny the season that he has had
and the way that he's gotten busy against every team
in the league. No, he hasn't done it the way
that I've loved it. But did Kobe Bryant falbate? Of course?
You know, if you guard Kobe in your hand was
(27:47):
in a fookie jar. It was gonna draw that you
knew if you're too close to Kobe and.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Is different though it's different. Though it's different though like
what he does, there's a difference between driving in and
creating contact and grabbing somebody pulling them into you, you know,
I mean, it's it's different than anybody who says all
these guys shot free throwers, none of them would grab
somebody's arm, pull them into them, and then throw up
their hands and pretend they.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Were fould I agree, I agree, you're not wrong. I
don't want to pull away from them, but I don't
want to puintalize this guy. I'm in between Doug and
I need to see him do it two or three
more times before I'm just fall in. And I think
the chance for him to have to do it is
not And keep in mind, like the ball was in
(28:34):
his hands for the majority of it, Like it wasn't
like you know, like he took knights off and jayl
Williams had that one forty point game and they were
really good to pay like for the most part, when
they need, like the balls in his hands to me
the key for it to continue to move forward the
way it does. That will continue to sell me, because
I like, I'm not fully sold, but I'm sold. I
(28:56):
got respect for what he does. I don't want to
take away from SGA. The thing that will tell me
is the improvement of Chet Holgering. And I think that
as he puts on weight, he continues to get stronger.
He's the guy that creates a dynasty for Oklahoma City
right now. If he's planning against a big if he
has to rebound against somebody with size, he can get
(29:16):
thrown around a little bit. But if he can play
in space, he's beaten shots off the glass. Dude, he
can shoot, he can dribble. There's a lot that Check
can do. I think Checks that unicorn, okay, that takes
them to the next level that makes it a dynasty
or not. If Check doesn't get in line, it will
not be a dynasty, it will not be something we'll
be talking about for ages. I think they can be beatable.
(29:39):
Check's the guy that makes them unbeatable. That's where I
lean into Oklahoma City even stronger. But if Chet doesn't
put on strength, if Check is not able to guard
big or.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, or if he can't make shots and he made
more last night, but he's lost his comments. Hey, Ryan,
you're the best. I'm actually we're gonna throw on dot
Alan Shamrock, who's works for Pavel works with the Packers
in a second and get his thoughts on it. But
I really appreciate you join us, and let's let's talk
after the draft.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Okay, anytime, Doug, all right.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Let's welcome in doctor Alan Shamrock. He joins us now
on the Doug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports. TRADIERO. He's
an orthopedic sports medicine foot and ankle surgeon and doctor Shamrock.
Thanks so much for joining us. Okay, so thanks for
having me. Yeah, I mean you and I just talked
about this earlier today. So it's not just basketball, right
(30:32):
Aaron Rodgers, Kirk Cousins. Granted they're a little older, but
there's been some younger players. There's a young college player,
Jalen Moore was at Oklahoma basketball player in a pre
draft workout towards achilles tenant. It does feel like again
feels you know, the numbers more, you know, it feels
like there's more of these higher volume of Achilles ten
and tears than previously at high level sports is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I would say so.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
I mean, I would say, just generally speaking, in the
population as the whole, there's certainly more Achilles ten ruptures.
I feel like, I know we're talking about lease athletes here,
but they're also happening in increasing numbers in the forty
fifty sixty year olds, and I think a lot of
that has to do with the popularity of pickleball.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, pickleball is a killer, right. You see pickleball dudes
go down. You're like, okay, so what do you think? Like,
you work on feet and ankles for a living. This
is what you do. What's your best guess on why
there's a higher volume of them than previously.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
Yeah, I mean it's really been interesting. I think that
the spike at the professional level on a national stage
has certainly gotten a whole lot of people interested. I
think that kind of delving into the Orthentedic literature what's
been published so far, there's never been a link between
having a prior calf injury or a calf strain increasing
(31:55):
your chance of having your Achilles tendon pop. I will
say though that I mean the calf up of two muscles,
the gas stock, the solely as they come together to
form the Achilles tendon, and the muscle and the tendon
function is one unit. And I think it passes the
common sense test that if that particular muscle tendon unit
(32:15):
is seeing a particular load and a portion of that
muscle is compromised and can't take that load, that load
has to.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Go somewhere, okay, So let me let me, let me
help people out here, and you tell me if this
is okay. So I trained with a guy, mart Murnovitch.
He was an incredible strength and conditioning coach in southern California.
And what we would do is we wouldn't just work
the gastric. We would work the solace, okay, which is
the little muscle. Right. And so but when you go
into a gym, okay, people do calf races, they do everything,
(32:47):
it's all for the gastric. They don't do for the solace.
And so there's an imbalance there is that what's behind
any of this that they're working, they're not working both
muscles and the ligaments and tendons.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
Yeah, I mean, to your point, it's certainly important to
strengthen both because, like I said, they work in conjunction
with one another, I will say, playing Devil's advocate, no
one has ever demonstrated that any sort of asymmetry between
the two can be increasing your risk of having your
your your tendon tear. But I mean it's certainly been
(33:21):
a very interesting thought.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Last thing is this and doctor Alan Shamrocks joining us
here on the Doug Gottlieb Show. He works for Pravea.
He's the foot and ankle surgeon for the Green Bay
Packers as well as for the Green Bay Phoenix, and
he joins us here in the Doug Goatlib Show on
Fox Sports Radio doc the rehab process. We have seen
(33:46):
players at football players come back sooner from it than previously.
How different is the surgery now from when you first
got into medicine.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
Yeah, I mean the surgical techniques has certainly changed quite
a bit. I think previously we're making large incisions on
the back of people's ankles, which brought a lot of
wound problems a concern for infection, and that's gone away
with more of the minimally and based in surgical techniques
using smaller incisions and then various jigs the pass suitures
(34:16):
through the tendon where you don't even have to really
look at the tendon itself, and I think that is
a had the rehab process speed up relative to what
we've been doing maybe a decade decade and a half ago.
I will say though, that rehab for Achilles, it just
takes a long time. I mean, I still counsel people
in the community that I mean it's going to be
(34:39):
nine to twelve months before you're back to doing whatever
sport you're doing before this happened. And then at the
collegiate a professional level, I think it's from the order
of seven to nine.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well, the great Achilles had one weakness, it was his heel,
and you are a man who fixes those that Achilles heel. Doc,
Thanks so much for joining us. Incredible insight, and I
just I really appreciate your time absolutely.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
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Speaker 1 (35:13):
Hey, what up with you Doug Gottlieb Show Fox Sports Radio.
Hope you're having a great day. The Doug Gottlieb Show
is coming to you live and direct. This is like,
I don't know what it is. Year twenty of the
show crazy crazy, be doing this a long time. You
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(35:38):
Boys don't know how much was cleaned up and at it,
but you'll find it interesting. For forty years, Tyrek has
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(36:00):
Rockets and he's our Fox Sports Radio NBA analyst. He'll
join us and we'll talk about it. Let me, let's
have a little discussion here. And I'm bummed at Dan's
Camera's not working because I do love and we tell
you you can watch highlights of this show on YouTube.
I like having like a conversation with Dan because he's
(36:21):
been doing this a long time too. I'm not a
prisoner of the moment. I've watched this happen plenty of
times recently to know at least a little bit more
about what I'm talking about in regards to injuries and
(36:47):
this new kind of scourge of Achilles tendon injuries that
is going around all of basketball but also all of sports.
Here's what I mean. So last night, Tyre's Haliburton tear's
his Achilles tendon. And first I just now we also
(37:14):
and I think it goes back to the Kevin Durant
and then onto the Aaron Rodgers, where we now know
what it looks like, right, like everybody staring at the
calf and then you see the calf kind of explode
and then you can almost see the Achilles recoil and
you're like, oh, I knew what that is. I know
(37:34):
what that is. And there were two moments this weekend
which I do think I could be wrong. You're going
to remember I don't know where you were, but your
reaction right when the President, when we found out that
the President had bombed I ran, I guarantee all of
you were like, well I was. I remember I was
(37:54):
in at the Champion Center in Appleton, Wisconsin, watching high
school kids play at this recruiting event, and you know
all asod. I look at my phone and some of
my friends had sent me memes. I'm like, I don't
even know, Like what's the matter with you? Like what
are you talking about? And then I got in my
car and I'm driving and Buddy, Michael Kitty, you believe it,
and then we start talking about it. Anyway, I think
(38:18):
you're gonna remember the NBA Finals, maybe for Halliburton's game
winner in Game one, I guess because of the thunder
winning in Game seven. But I think the most memorable
moment is going to be tearing his achilles tendon. And
I've the great thing about this show is it starts
(38:40):
at three on the East, noon in the West, and
it gives some really talented people like Dan Patrick, like
Colin Cowherd, two Pros and a cup of Joe a
chance to speak their mind and then we can either
react to that, echo their thoughts or maybe look at
things a little bit differently. This is not a basketball thing,
(39:02):
it's a sports thing. And you're like, well, I just
you know, we watched Jason Tatum, we watched Damian Lillard,
we watched uh Tyrese Haliburton. Uh those are all basketball players.
They just tore their Achilles tenant. I'll add to it
that in the last week, Jalen Moore, who played basketball
at Georgia Tech and then Oklahoma, he was doing pre
draft workouts. He tours Achilles tennont. So the the difference
(39:27):
is it used to be an injury where Dominiquilkins late
in his career towards Achilles tennant. It used to be
one where the wear and tear of a long career.
Maybe that's it gets brittle. It's just overused and just
goes right. It's like the rubber band that gets pulled, pulled,
pull pull, pull pull pull, then finally all right. But
(39:48):
let's let let's let's hit the all of the different
things first. Don't do that. It's the vaccination thing because
Aaron Rodgers toward his that it. It's and I don't
know if if Kirk Cousins was vaccinated or not. I
guess as he wasn't. So let's stop with the vaccine thing.
Are we okay with Chase stew Are you okay with
(40:10):
me going Vaccine's not it? I'm gonna go, yes, Vaccine's
not it. If we do the overuse thing, you're like, okay,
well they do play a couple more playoff games than
they used to. And they're like, well, the NBA playoffs
(40:32):
are so long. Well, they're so long because the games
are spaced out in order to give them more rest
than they used to have, because the NBA playoffs have
always gone into June, always, always, always, always, and they've
always played eighty two games, and players used to always
play eighty two games. And the medical treatment after the
(40:53):
games has gotten better, not worse. So I don't buy
the or they play more games they used to, not really.
Tyre's Halliburton plays many three games this year Jason Tatum,
and I know he and Halliberton were on the Olympic team,
but neither of them really played that much. Now there
is extensive work and whatever. But okay, Damian Lillard again.
(41:16):
Then you go to football, Uh, what was the what's
the running back of the Rams who a couple of
years ago towards Achilles ten camp Akers? Okay, I give
you Jalen Moore, I give you cam Akers. There's also
what's the guard who was San Antonio Atlanta tore his
this year? Right? Je Jonta Murray toars cost so it's
(41:41):
not age. I don't believe it's games played. Jeantay Murrie
played deep into the playoffs. He hadn't played a lot
of games.
Speaker 7 (41:47):
He's young.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Jayalen Moore's not played in the NBA. You know, I
played college basketball season, a couple of college bustible seasons.
I don't buy the it's the number of games things.
So I've heard people go like, well, it's the all
of them are when guys take that kind of reverse
step and then they push off, like so that people
just started doing that just now. No, that basketball has
(42:11):
always been stressed in your achilles tenon. And again quarterbacks
have always gone back and taken that negative step and
planted and thrown. There's always that pressure on achilles tendon.
Only now it seems like there's more guys. So it
wasn't the vaccine. Please stop with its low tops. Stop
(42:32):
with its low tops. There's never been a study that
shows that high tops protect you from anything, especially an
achilles tenant. To wear high tops, okay, and put your
toe down and plant, and there's zero difference, none in
the pressure on your achilles ten and wearing high tops.
(42:53):
There used to be a shoe and I'm a basketball shoe. Guy,
I've worn I tried them all, and I think Buyer
might be the only other human being in the world
who remembers this because he's also Midwest guy. Do you
remember there was the Converse weapons, but they also had
the why bar? Did you ever remember the y bar ones?
(43:15):
They were like weapons that had an ankle brace, almost
like inserted into it.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
No, No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, now remember Dan Marino towards Achilles tenon, right, So
it had happened before. It's just the volume of them,
and now it's not reserved for older players. Now you've
got younger players doing it. I don't believe it's the
stinkers because the sneker technology is way better. It doesn't
(43:42):
make any sense, right, I mean, like we used to
play Air Force ones. Used to be basketball sninkers. People
used to play in Air Force ones. I played Air
Force ones. By the way, air Force two remarkably underrated shoe. Okay,
but the technology wasn't better then than it is now,
so that doesn't make any sense. Please don't say it's Nike.
(44:06):
Haliburton was wearing pumas Lillard was wearing Adidas. So again,
let's in order to figure out what it is. We
have to cross off what it's not. I don't believe
it's too many games, because they're playing the same number
of regular season games only I don't know if any
of these guys play No nobody plays eighty two games anymore,
(44:27):
and they used to always play any two games, and
they didn't used to tear their achilles tenants. That doesn't
make any sense. They've added a handful of games to
the playoffs, right, first round used to be three, then
it was five, now it's seven. But again, guys have
torn their achilles tennants in the regular season. That doesn't
make any sense. You can say, well, these guys are
so much bigger and stronger of top top heavy Haliburton's not.
That doesn't make sense, right, So we're trying to get
(44:51):
to what it is. What it's not is. It's not vaccine,
it's not too many games, it's not the sneakers, and
it's also happened in football. I don't think it's nutrition
because people eat better than it what it was. So
(45:13):
here's my best guess. Okay, here's my best guess. I
think we're building bodies the wrong way.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
I do.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I think we're building bodies the wrong it's the only possible.
We're building by the wrong way. And then I think
there's a portion of it which I wonder. I don't know.
All of this is hypotheses, and I didn't pay attention
a lot in school. I'm not just sitting here trying
to brag. I do remember the difference between hypotheses and theory.
A theory is something that has proven scientifically through a study.
(45:43):
Hypothesis is something that you wonder that has some sort
of facts behind it, but it is yet to be
scientifically proven. My hypothesis for why there is just so
many recent Achilles ten and tears instead of one every
couple of years. Two Now, we've got three star players
in the playoffs, and I've gone through two star quarterbacks
(46:04):
the last two years. I've torn it, and we could
go through a litany of guys. It never happened before
at this volume. If you say it did, your lying.
But they're playing the same number of games in the
NBA at a couple of playoff games. That's it. I'm
torn in terms of the only play one sport thing, right,
(46:28):
because Aaron Rodgers didn't just play one sport. A lot
of these guys play multiple sports growing up, but there
is the specialization to it. So is it the specialization
and taking time off in the offseason that allows you
to build your body. Maybe maybe you know it trains
other muscles so it protects it. I guess that could
(46:49):
be it. I also think there's a part of me
that says basketball players now, when I played, and you know,
I finished playing college in two thousand finished playing professionally
in two thousand and three, okay, but when I played,
and how I was brought up with my dad, who
was a jay, was a walk on JV player in college,
(47:11):
is basketball players play basketball. I played basketball all the time,
even when I played baseball, even when I played football,
even when I played tennis. I would always play basketball
when I when I played in the summer, you'd go
home and yeah, I'd work out my dad and I
would shoot, but I would always play. You go up
to UCLA, you play pickup games. We go to Columbus
tust And gym and we get the guys. Or I'd
(47:33):
go down to to uh the Newport and now it's
pacifica Christian's gym, but it's the West Newport Gym. And
that was like Scottie Brooks and Todd Murphy and all
the U c Irvine guys that were pros. I'd hop
in with them or at Los Cabriiras. We played basketball
all the time. Yeah, we lift weights, we work with trainers,
but we played basketball. Now in the offseason, nobody plays
(47:56):
five on five very little. You know, you'll see those
there's that in I think it's like an LA Fitness
in New York, where they'll play a little bit, but
for the most part, everybody's got their trainer and everybody
does cone drills. And I'm not sure if that doesn't
build your body in a way along with the trainers
that is so sports specific and so that it's not
functioning like it functions in a game. Then you get
(48:18):
into a game and suddenly there's an imbalance. It's got
to be the way in which we're constructing these bodies.
They're more explosive, they have greater endurance, they have greater
loateral quickness, they're just better in terms of their performance,
but they also break down more. I don't think there's
anybody that can that can deny that. So my hypothesis
(48:41):
is it is not the vacs. It is not too
many games. And by the way, they're never gonna have
fewer games. Stop at Colin again. We've told you that before.
The one thing that sports is never going to do.
They're never going to take away games because that takes
away money. And it's not just the league, it's the players, like, Hey,
(49:01):
do you want to play less games?
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Do you want to make less money? Nope? It doesn't
work that way, But there is there's nothing that tells
us it's too many games. It's got to be something else.
And my best guess is how we construct bodies. I
am my trainer, who was Troy Palamalu's trainer, and others,
the late Marv Vinovich. Okay, anybody who's in sports note
(49:26):
Todd Marv was different, but Marve was incredible. He worked
on your ligaments and your tendons as well as your
nervous system and making it all together. I don't think
people do that. I think people work on balance, and
they work on explosiveness. They work on the big and
the little muscles, But I don't know if they work
on the ligaments and tents and how it all works together. Byer,
(49:46):
do you have any hypotheses you'd like to share? As
to what happens.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
No, And I just think that your at least expertise,
I don't know how you want to put it, your connections,
your job is much more educated than anything that I
could bring up. I just on a surface level, wondered
if you know, if it was a strength training thing
or a lack of strength training that we're going through,
(50:10):
is it? You know, were those sort of maybe reasons
why we're seeing it more. It's also funny too, is
I've mentioned on the show on Sunday of we now
kind of have this eerie feel when it comes to
a calf strain of what could happen. And while we
thought that Halliburton was, you know, made it through the
woods because he got through Game six, he obviously wasn't.
And I just think now going forward, yeah, we're going
(50:33):
to look at the injury even more differently than we
did entering this game seven. But it was already there
with Tatum and Lillard and Kevin Durant in twenty nineteen.
But you would know a lot more about it, especially
on how you know these athletes are training.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
I don't. I talked to I talked to doctor Shamrock
with the Packers today, and he told me, like you said,
they now believe that the calf strains it's a weakness.
They don't know whether the cap strain is really it's
really an Achilles strain or more he said, more likely.
It just means there's gonna be more pressure on the achilles,
and that's what leads to it. But again, what leads
(51:09):
to the more cap strains and the weaker Achilles or
all that pressure
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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