August 19, 2025 • 50 mins
Doug welcomes former ESPN boss and current President/COO of TKO Mark Shapiro onto the pod to discuss theUFC deal and the business of sports media. Doug reacts to Colin Cowherd's take on the Bengals. Doug chooses among deserving candidates Jason Stewart deems as most annoying. Plus, Tommy Pham makes today's installment of "Because We Can".
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, this is the Doug Gottlie Show. Heres in
the Bonus with Doug Gottley.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What I was talking about it is Fox Sports Radio,
iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome in. Do Do Do Do Do?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Kind of a different pod that we're having today. So
our guest is going to be Mark Shapiro. And Mark's
been a lot of things, been a friend, that a boss,
uh than a friend. Now like just an unbelievably dynamic
part of the sports business industry.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
He's the guy who.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Like his his breakthrough moment was he was a producer
on Jim on the Old Jim Rome Show, a TV
show on ESPN two, when Jim Rome had the back
and forth with Jim Everett. Apparently he was the one
who told Jim Rome to call him Chris one more
(00:58):
time and that's when the table got turned over.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
That it's like an iconic.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sports TV moment, might be the most iconic sports TV
moment from there. And he was a guy who he
went to University of Iowa, got to ESPN as I
think like an intern, and then just became like just
worked his way up and went from the mailroom to
running programming, which is when you're running program you're essentially
running ESPN.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So the whole thing was fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Of the bosses I've worked for, I thought he was
the best because he was the most dynamic and engaging
and not risk averse. His run at ESPN was not perfect, right,
They did lose Sunday Night Football when he's there, and
he was the guy who is I just think they
were too far and they were like two years too
(01:47):
early on the phone. They lost a lot of money
on the phone. But imagine if ESPN the phone came
out when smartphones came out instead of using essentially a
sprint flip phone, and I think it would have dominated
the market. So there were things that he missed on
that he really I thought he really hit on.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And yeah, and then.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
He's he's the guy who gets credit for starting PTI
part of the eruption, which, for my money is the
greatest sports show in the history of sports shows. And Uh,
Tony's unbelievable. Will Bond is the the the perfect co
host for him. It's and and Mark uh claims he
(02:26):
figured it thought of the show when he was in
a cab in New York City. So now he runs
the company that one of there's three companies that they formed.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
He used to be second in charge to Ari Emmanuel, who.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Is probably the world's most famous agent, I would think, right,
and most famous agent because.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Uh he was.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Ari Emanuel was basically who they pretended was the top
agent at on Entoura Entourage. So Ari Emanuel he's the second,
he's the lieutenant, and Endeavor has started these three companies
that run WWE and UFC, and UFC just signed a
groundbreaking deal to have put their put their broadcasts on
(03:16):
Paramount and CBS. And so he's the president and CEO,
that's chief operating officer of TKO, and TKO now runs
UFC and runs.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
WWE, and so in one deal they had two.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
ESPN now has WWE, which is interesting because ESPN has
always been about sports.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Now this is.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Entertainment, which the e was in entertainment for WWE and
for ESPN. And he took UFC and they've taken it
off pay per view and now they put it onto
a streaming service on Paramount. So the reason I want
to have him on is one I think you'll get
a chance to understand, like, this is what a dynamic
business band sounds like to me. This is somebody who
(04:05):
I personally gravitate towards and trust me, Mark has never
even now like and we have a business relationship. I've
asked him for a couple of favors and he he
doesn't always say yes.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
He'll always be thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
And respond, but he's willing to hear out people that
he likes and respects and work hard and go like
well let me, let me let me work shop that
one and then yes or no whatever. But he's an
unbelievable guy and leader because he's gonna tell you things
and he's not gonna work behind cloak and dagger like
this that went down and this is what we're thinking
and this is what we did. So the second the
(04:41):
deal got consummated, I reached out and go, hey, would
you do would you hop on my radio show pod
and can we just talk about this deal? And he
was like, yeah, set it up. And so what I
think you'll hear it's like, what is it a toy
minutes long? A toy minutes and we just kind of
it just kind of takes you through the thought process
in this deal, and I think you're gonna walk away
with a couple of things. One how they got to being.
(05:03):
It's different than I thought because my former boss, it's
one of my bosses at CBS was David Person. David
used to be his number two when he was at ESPN.
I just thought it was a wink wink nod and
deal like this is a David Berson's now the president
of CBS Sports. This is him, David Burson's saying hey, well,
let's we got to change the dynamic here. Let's go
(05:24):
all in. That doesn't appear to be had. And he's
also not a liar. He just doesn't bullshit, doesn't have
time for it, doesn't need it. So anyway, Mark Shapiro,
super dynamic guy, and I thought you'd get a little
snapshot inside the Beltway of sports business and how deals
are actually done, and understand how a guy got to
(05:46):
run ESPN's programming at I think thirty two years old.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Doug Gottlieb
Show weekday. He's at three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Okay, so Mark, let's let's start with UFC as a
business model, pre dating your agreement with Paramount. Okay, you've
been on obviously both sides of these deals when you
looked at it and the pay per view model with ESPN,
how healthy a business was it for UFC?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
You know, it's been cyclical. I would say overall, the
relationship with ESPN just extraordinary and start there. I mean,
obviously ESPN is the destination for sports fans. It's appointment
viewing and there's no better marketing partner in sports twenty
four to seven. They want to get behind something, they
get behind it. You know it too well, because of
(06:43):
course when they don't, you also know that. And they
they did more for the UFC than any partner we've
ever had. And I would say the fact that we
are mainstream and so strong with young men and the
demos that we have. Of course it has a lot
to do with our fighting stable and Dana White in
the history, but ESPN took us to another level. So
(07:04):
it was great and we knew what we were walking into.
Doug right, this was an ESPN plus play that they're
going to use the ESPN and ESPN two as a
Barker channel to watch the prelimbs, maybe even watch the
early prims prelimbs and then move you over to ESPN
plus to sign up. So when we started with them,
we were in three million homes and we quickly grew
(07:27):
to twenty four million. And their words, not ours. We
were the anchor tenant of ESPN plus. So it was great.
But I think over time, over the seven years, a
couple things happened. One is, they just kept raising price
and it got to a point where it was just
too much. And we know that for a fact because
the pay per views started slipping, the total number of
(07:49):
buys and the pirrating went to insane levels. I mean,
and Dana, as you know, is now on the board
of metat. So we've seen unbelievable numbers across Facebook and
our relationship with YouTube, and tens of thousands of streams,
and that.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Give me, give me a sense, give me some when
you say the pirrating, okay, because I know what you're
talking about, because I've been to parties. We're like do
we buy this? Like no, no, we got a we
got a firestick.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
We're in there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
What are the type of numbers that would be pirated?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Tens of thousands of streams and how many people were
watching each of those streams? We don't even know. It
just it just got to be too much because it's
too expensive. You're paying eleven ninety nine to get ESPN
plus that's what you have to do monthly, and then
to get the pay per view you're paying eighty dollars.
So it almost becomes the sales prevention departments. And we
(08:39):
discussed this with ESPN and they had different data and
they just didn't agree, and they just kept going. They
did introduce some early bird specials if you buy two
weeks before and you get five bucks off, but it
was nothing that was going to solve the crisis. Now,
in their defense, the UFC, while obviously we have stars,
(08:59):
I mean Nunez and John Jones and you know justin
Gaetgee and a lot of folks along the way, Usman Kamara,
we didn't have anyone of the level of Connor McGregor
or Ron and Rousi in the in the later years
of our seven year deal. And they would point to
the pipeline and so just being fair across the board, Look,
you got to win to become a star. We can't manufacture.
(09:20):
It isn't this isn't the WWE, and so there might
be some truth to that, but the fighting itself, the matches,
the competition, the events have never been better, never been better,
and the fact that you have a lot of Russian
and Middle Eastern champions. It is what it is. You
got to beat the best, and our core fans get that.
You do want commercial stars, and I think over time
(09:43):
it's very cyclical. It just it rides different waves. When
when GSP left the UFC is, oh my god, they
have no other stars, and then someone else emerges. So
you just you gotta be patient and you got to
be in it for the long haul.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
If you were on the other side, right because I
like it. I like in this one to when you
were at ESPN and had you lost Monday Night football, right, yeah,
because Sunday night when we lost Sunday Night, but you
couldn't lose Monday Night. If you were on the other side,
(10:17):
what would you have done to prevent you from switching
to Paramount?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I wouldn't let it get away. I mean, let me
just say, Bob Iger is the biggest sports fan of
any executive in the media business. I mean, he started
at ABC Sports and he's a massive boxing fan too,
Like he knows the combat sports area. He came to
our Sphere event last year, which was a real spectacle. Look,
you're launching ESPN direct to consumer. I think it launches,
(10:45):
you know in the next couple of days. Here you're
charging twenty nine to ninety nine. You want to see
people either authenticate if they have cable and satellite already,
and if they don't, you want them to pay twenty
nine ninety nine. So you want all the premier SPORTSFC
fan is very, very passionate. I mean it's it's it's
the fervor. The fan avidity is insane, right, And forty percent.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Of our audiences women, so you've got moms buying, and
you've got obviously.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Young men, young women who watch six hour cards. I mean,
this is what you dream about. And there's forty three events.
So look, it's easy to play money. Morning Quarterback. I
don't know the budgets. I don't know their dollars. They've
got a lot of money to spend. They've made big
investments in the NFL, the CFP, the NBA, and you
know what, money doesn't stretch that far and their linear
(11:36):
business is declining, so they had to make some decisions.
I think the WWE deal is brilliant for them. The
idea of WrestleMania and ESPN brilliant, and maybe they just
couldn't afford everything, but having UFC, which is a year
round sport, while you're trying to launch D two C
at twenty nine to ninety nine, which would be well received,
(11:56):
versus the one hundred dollars fans are paying month now
for ESPN plus to get the paper fights. To me,
that's something I wouldn't have passed up. But I don't
criticize them. They're an important partner. There's still the premier
destination in sports, and we're going to help them build
this ESPN.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
D T too.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Ce.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Okay, I want to circle back to ESPN and the
relevancy in all sports in a second. But okay, so
then take me to the paramount CBS deal because there
also was the merger which was delayed right because of
the administration and the lawsuits there whatever. What was that
like to work through in that this is a gigantic deal. Yeah,
(12:37):
and yet you're also waiting on the merger to take
to get finalized. And there's a window there where even
when it gets finalized, it's like in ninety days to
where it can still blow up.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
That's right for the process.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Like, look, I would say they weren't the leader in
the clubhouse by any stretch, really not at all. We've
probably started these conversations Doug in February. Right, our ESPN
deal is up at the end of this year. ESPN
had a ninety day exclusive window, so there's no there's
a chance we wouldn't come out of the window. Now, Look,
(13:09):
it was our goal to come out of the window
because we thought we would either a split the package
or B split or no split. We were going to
get more money elsewhere, but we were all in on ESPN.
If they closed the deal, they closed the deal, similar
to the NBA deal. We got out of the window.
Then what nobody knew was Netflix had a thirty day
exclusive window. So when they negotiated to get raw, Netflix
(13:33):
is so good. I mean, they're so strategic, their team
is so top flight. They negotiated actually for a thirty
day window on UFC if and when we didn't get
out of the ESPN window with the deal, so and
we were like, what are you talking about? This is
a ww raw deal. You're not getting that an exclusive
negotiating winnow the UFC and they negotiated hard for it
(13:55):
and we gave it to them. So we then got
into a thirty day window with Netflix. It was going
very well that they asked for a fifteen day extension,
so we gave him another fifteen Once that forty five
days was up and no deal, then we went to
the market. So our first meeting with Paramount was June third,
(14:16):
And to your points, they were in the middle of
this obviously getting closure and trying to you know, get
past DOJ and antitrust and you know the sixty minutes fiasco.
I mean, there was a lot going on there, and
they were like, look, we love the UFC. David Ellison,
I know the UFC. Jeff Schell almost bought the UFC
(14:36):
back in the day when he was a Comcast David
Berson used to work for me at ESPN, and we
were remaining close. So everybody knew the power of the
UFC and what it could do for Paramount Plus, but
they really weren't in a position to make that deal.
So we continued conversations with Netflix, with YouTube, with Fox,
with ESPN, I mean, even to Zonne, I mean, we
(14:58):
were really in there with every and remember we we
really had two packages. Even though ESPN currently has it all.
There's the fight Night package, which is thirty days thirty
thirty fight nights a year, and then there's the pay
per views, where there's thirteen of them. So we had
forty three and we thought we would probably split them.
And I would say early on we figure and Paramount
(15:21):
CBS got out of their their regulatory process, they would
probably come in for the fight nights. It's not all thirty,
maybe fifteen, maybe ten. We might divide that up three
different ways. But in the end, when they closed, you know,
it was a we got fast in a hurry and
they were They came to us and said, you know what,
(15:41):
We're gonna take it all. And then we just got
into a fast negotiation and we closed it out in
forty eight hours. And now we are where we are
and we're gonna launch in January and it's gonna be
really exciting, and we're gonna build a sick card. I mean,
we're always trying to build sick cards. Hunter Campbell and
Dana White, this is their job, and we do that
every month. But we are very focused on having an
extraordinary launch event in the same way when ESPN Plus launched,
(16:05):
we had an event at Madison Square Garden. That was
the opening event, and we did like seven hundred thousand buys.
Now there are no buys. Think of that. If you
want to watch the UFC, if you already have Paramount Plus,
it's free, it's free, And of course CBS is free.
If you don't, you got to pay seven to ninety
nine a month, even if they raised the price at
(16:25):
some point eight nine, ninety ninety nine whatever, It isn't
one hundred dollars.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You mentioned.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
We mentioned ESPN, right. The fear is if you leave,
you lave ESPN, they won't they won't cover you. Right,
That's what happened with the NHL. That's that's part of
you know why the NHL felt like, you know, they
felt like it was unfair you and I obviously I
worked for you when you're at ESPN and you were
all about synergy and promoting from within, so it makes sense.
(16:54):
I think My question is not, well they still cover you,
is does it matter as much?
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Like when you were at ESPN and the way you
ran it, Sports Center was everything right, everything, Now this
is everything right, So honestly, does it matter as much?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Look, it's a great question, It's a great question. It's
very poignant. I'll tell you, I'll answer both of those,
the one you didn't want to ask and the one
you did ask. First of all, I do believe it matters.
They're still in sixty five million homes. I think the
ESPN direct to consumer product is going to be a
big winner. They have the CFP right, they have the SEC,
(17:39):
they have the NFL.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Same a similar demo, they.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Have the NBA. I mean, they have the stuff that matters.
And you want to be promoted and marketed and covered
in that neighborhood. Sure period, end of story. Even though
linear will keep declining at some rate. Want you want
to be in the machine, and they are still a machine.
There's a lot of great people. They're smart people. They
know what they're doing, and they know that UFC isn't
(18:05):
obviously a big sport, a premier sport, a mainstream sport now.
So they're going to cover it because that's their job
as a news organization. So that's first and foremost, and
I think that I think they will do it because
of just that. I will tell you, though, very candidly,
that when I was at ESPN and I wasn't running
the whole show yet, when we first lost NASCAR, which
(18:29):
is a big deal, A big deal, this is this
is you know, I don't even know around in the
late nineties or two thousand. It's a Fox and NBC.
We did stop covering NASCAR. It's closely as we formerly
had covered it. And I don't think there was no
meeting in the back room. Screw those guys. We lost NASCAR.
(18:50):
It's so highly rated it's crushing us. And it was
crushing us. In fact, that's why I got promoted, because
our ratings went in the tank. When you lose an
every weekend five rating or a six rating, it's going
you can't replace that. And those races did big numbers
and that led to my ascension, and ultimately we got
the NBA and Wimbledon to replace that, and then we
(19:12):
went on a tear. But I would just tell you
that there was no backroom conversation. Let's promote them less
because of revenge or spite. That did not happen. But
I think just naturally, kind of in the water, you
just aren't thinking of it as much top of mind.
But they learned their lesson on that and they are
aware of the criticism, and I think they will be
(19:33):
sensitive to that, and I know we will be calling
them six ways to Sunday hourly if we feel like
they're not doing their job of promoting a premier mainstream
sport like the UFC.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Last thing, And I know you got to go, and
I appreciate your time, of course.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
And I shouldn't say promoted, covering covering and promoting.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Look and covering it is promoting it, right, it really is.
It works together the rise of UFC right from when
you were first a young producer at ESPN to now,
right like the NFL is one hundred year built, hey, exactly,
(20:13):
the NBA has been one hundred years. Major League Baseball
is over one hundred years to go from where they
were even in the early two thousands where they were
trying to get to mainstream to now you're talking about
a premiere property on the Tiffany Network. This is a
story that I don't think has ever played out as
(20:34):
such before in sports, is there, Doug.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I'll tell you this. When I was running program, I
got promoted to the head of program, I mean thirty
two years old. In twenty ten, Dana White and the
Fertida brothers came and pitched and they pitched hard on
the UFC, like I wasn't sure if I'd get if
I said no, if I might get beat up or
they left the room right, And I didn't do it.
(21:01):
And one of the reasons I didn't do it wasn't
all my decision. The mouse Disney wasn't about to put
that that sport where it was with blood on the
mat on ESPN or ABC Sports. Now, completely different story. Obviously,
it is mainstream. It is the rise, the evolution, the ascension,
(21:21):
the following, the fan base, the number of fighters around
the globe, how global it is. I mean you're talking
two and ten countries and territories that the UFC is
currently broadcasted. You have six.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Hundred plus fighters, right, you have seventy five different countries
of where they hail from, the fighters. You have fifty
different languages that broadcast UFC fights. I can't even believe it.
I can't believe where it has has gone. You know
how it is has come that far. ESPN has been
(21:57):
a big part of that. I mean, they really super
were charged it. They they put turbo into this. Fox
was important, Spike was important, Every step of the way
was important. But I would tell you ESPN had had
more to do with than anything else. And of course
Dana White and his team and the way they got
behind it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
And locally and built these stars, these stars that won
and covered.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
The survive COVID two absolutely survived COVID right and expanded
in COVID when when others had no we had no
live sports.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
And I tell you he was the guy. He was
calling Ari and I by the outward a I'm not
going down. UFC doesn't go down. We will find a
place to do this. We were on our way to
do a vent at Tachi Wallace, an Indian reservation in California,
so we wouldn't miss a month, and by the way,
we needed to because money wise, we would have been
(22:48):
in trouble just at that time, Endeavor, all of our
businesses were shut down like everybody else, and yet we
had this huge staff and expenses and media rights fees
we had to pay at IMG and so we needed
to keep the show going. And he worked out a
deal which would have kept us going in ESPN would
have loved it. And at the end of the day,
it was Newsome and Bob Iger that said, hey too soon,
(23:11):
probably insensitive to what's going on, we need you to
stand down, so we didn't do that event. We waited
a month and then Bank Fight Island and they were
ready for it. Abu Dhabi, the Bubble Newsom was good
with it, Bob Iger was good with it, and we
moved on and that saved the day. To your point,
so many fans sampled it for the first time and
(23:33):
became full time fans.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, listen, congrats on getting the deal done. I'm sure
you all have to do another one and I really
really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Great to see it. Congratulations on all your success.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Doug Gottlieb
Show weekday, he said three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app, and now.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Every day of this time in the Bunus podcast play
for your obvious portion of a Fox Sports Radio show.
Here's Dan Patrick talking about Scotty Scheffler.
Speaker 7 (24:04):
I hate when somebody backs into a title, and Scotty
Scheffler did not back into a title. He went out,
grabbed it and won it, his fifth PGA Tour title
of the season and the first player to win five
straight times on the PGA Tour in consecutive years since
Tiger Woods back in six and seven. And I know
it sounds blasphemous to say, you know, put Scotti, Scheffler
(24:27):
and Tiger Woods in the same you know, conversation. I'm
not talking about the style, the presentation. I'm talking about
the end result. And that's where Scotty deserves to be
put in that category. Now, granted it's a smaller sample size,
but if you're looking at Tiger at his tiger Ish peak,
Scotty is, you know, at least close, he's at least
(24:50):
in the conversation with that. And once again, he's never
he still looks like Carl Spackler from Caddyshack whenever I
see him. You know, he's got the beard there and
it just looks like Bill Murray's character in caddy Shack.
But he did it in a methodical way once again,
and very impressive going into the Tour Championship.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, he's so awesome. And I do think there
is something too. I said, I was critical of his
you know, it doesn't bring me joy or life to win.
He's just not wired that way. But I do think
there is something. It's like that book, the subtle art
of not giving a fuck, right, is that when you've
(25:32):
released and he thought that this really really matters, you
can just go play and let your god given skill
take you home. But he is one unbelievably talented dude,
and his ability to put big win after big win
together is I mean, just he's the best golfer in
the world. I don't I don't think there's really an
(25:55):
argument there. Here's Colin Calhert talking about the Bengals.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
You look at Cincinnati and you go, well, that we
really like Zach Taylor. I'm not sure. It's just too
lobsided an organization. It's Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase and everything else.
Their de facto general manager is ninety years old Mike Brown.
They have the smallest personnel department in the NFL. That's
why they don't take big risks like the Philadelphia Eagles,
(26:21):
who are constantly trying to get slightly better. They don't
do that.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
They beat down their culture.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
They beat down all their star players to squeeze every
last ounce out. And I hear this, cod we made
a Super Bowl.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Oh wake up.
Speaker 8 (26:36):
When you're not paying your rookie quarterback the big money,
yet you don't have to be is buttoned up. Once
you paid Jalen Hurts or Ma Holmes or Josh Allen
or Matt Stafford, you've got to be more buttoned up.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
It's all about the margins.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
So, I mean, the first two drives of the game,
Washington had one hundred and sixty yards running. Cincinnati's defense
is atrocious. I think it's the worst in the league
without Trey Hendrickson, absolutely the Pitts, and yet they're beating
down Trey Hendrickson for every penny. He's easily their best
defensive player.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, he is.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Their defense is bad last year, it's probably gonna be
bad this year. The organization is cheap, but they actually
are doing a really good job generally in the draft
and they try and keep their own So I mean, again,
like we can be critical of the Bengals, but they've
been pretty good. They did go to a Super Bowl
(27:33):
a couple of years ago, and they're trying to fix
their defense without arguably their best defensive player who wants
an absorbment contract that I don't think he'd get anywhere.
So yeah, look, the Eagles are great. They they're kind
of a machine. They're doing an awesome job and turns
out they got a quarterback who I don't think anybody
(27:55):
thinks is as talented as Joe Burrow, but they got
him at a lower number Joe Burrow. And they've been
able to really do well in drafting despite their success.
But it's not like the Bengals have been bad and
draft they're just their defenses. It sucks because they have
so much invested in the offense so much. But let's
just not fall in the trap of using the preseason
(28:19):
is telling you who teams are.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Big mistake.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Here's Brady Quinn talking about the Big pet Tens proposed
playoff expansion plan.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
Would they say twenty eight teams in this one? Yeah,
come on, dude, if we're being real right now, let's
be real, let's talk about the teams that like legitimately
have a shot at winning a national championship. And mind you,
I'm not saying that this is the case in the
NFL too, But if we want to look at the
top eight ranked teams, maybe nine, that's all.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's all my opinion.
Speaker 9 (28:53):
If you're not Texas, Penn State, Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia,
Notre Dame, Oregon, Alabama, LSU, I'm sorry I just I
don't see it. I don't see it. They might upset
Miami fans who are sitting right there at ten. It
might have set some Arizona State fans, Illinois, South Carolina, Michigan.
I'm sorry, I don't see it, Florida.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
Yeah, bet don't see it.
Speaker 9 (29:14):
Don't see a fore you this year, Like if you
could make a bet and you take any one of
those nine teams and hell, I'll even say probably stops
at seven.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, I mean, it's too many teams.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
The ideal thing for me was has always been that,
however many conferences you want to include, you make automatic
bids for those cups so that the conference matters, conference matters. Now,
it's hard because it's not going to be an even schedule.
Some is gonna get left out, whatever. But there does
(29:53):
get to a point to where you're like talking about
too many, talk about too many. I think the reason
that that number those seems reasonable to most people is
you're like, well, really, it's just going to use the
bowl games and teams playing in high level games, which
I don't disagree with, but it's how many teams should
legitimately have a chance to compete for national title. And
(30:18):
I think you know last year was a per example.
You know there's like four or five really like you
know on a given year, this gonna.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Be four or five.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
But if you figure the top three from the Big ten,
to top three from the SEC, the top one or
two from ACC and Big twelve. Right, so let's just
say right there, you're at nine. I think sixteen is
really the limit. It's a limit. That's what the Fox said.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
What does the fuck say?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Let's find out who what's annoying? Jason Stewart.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
And now it's your annoying.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Hey, this first one is it's gonna be teed up
for you. I saw you tweet about this. This is
very inside the industry when you're talking about TV appearances
and compensation. And Stephen A. Smith wants everyone to know
that he's the hardest working person in the business, and
he goes out of his way to do that. And
(31:25):
I guess he was on the Gilarinas podcast talking about
all of his TV hits with.
Speaker 10 (31:31):
ESPN at the time. You signed for appearances. So I
was getting paid like one thousand dollars in appearance for
two hundred and twenty five appearances a year. And then
the boss who was at the time, Mark Shapiro, he
was the boss at ESPN at the time, and he
lost his damn mind because he got a bill for
five hundred and fifty thousand dollars and he said, this
(31:54):
is three hundred and twenty five thousand dollars more than
I signed this man for. That makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
How the hell did that happen?
Speaker 10 (32:02):
And the producers were like, we love him, and he
never says no. So they had penciled me in for
two hundred and twenty five appearances, but I did five
hundred and fifty, and so when I did five and fifty,
he was like, when does this dude sleep. He saw
the numbers, he saw the way people gravitated towards me,
he saw me put me on NBA shoot Around is
what it was called the time instead of Countdown. And
(32:23):
when he put me on NBA shoot Around and stuff
like that, and the ratings took off and all of that,
he said, Yo, I'm gonna give this man his own show.
And that's how it happened.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Okay, there's a lot of truth to what he's saying,
because I was at ESPN at the same time and
we had Mark Shapiro on on today, and I know
that to I know, all of what he's saying is accurate.
The inaccuracy is the and again maybe he calculated it
(32:54):
in a different way, but that seems impossible because it
was one thousand dollars, right. That was their big thing
at the time was if we're going to pay you,
whenever we pay you, we get you for the day.
Whether it's two minutes or two hours, didn't matter, it's
the day. My I'll just inside the beltway, right. You
(33:17):
want to do numbers. My initial radio contract there was
one hundred and eighty five thousand and two hundred radio appearances,
two hundred radio appearances, and I would only get a
thousand I got I think it was like eighteen fifty
(33:37):
for a college basketball game, which was super super low,
and I had I think I had eight. And then
I had two hundred radio appearances. And anytime I was
on television because I was a radio employee, if it
was the same day that I did radio, I got nothing.
If it was an additional day, I got one thousand dollars.
(33:59):
So the first year, the only way I could get
on TV, this is in two thousand and three, was
they would only let me do ESPN news at the
time on days I did radio. The second year I
was there, I started doing ESPN news hits well all
Stephen they spit did the same and it was one
thousand dollars a day. Whether they use you for one
(34:21):
ESPN it wasn't if you did, because they used to
have a bunch of different ESPN news shows. And the
last part to it is, and this is the part
that I know you're getting at Jay stew which you're
I'm getting into the details of it. You're talking about
Steven A. Braggan as if he's the hardest, he's the
James Brown, the hardest working man in show business. I
would only point out a couple of things. I do
(34:43):
think that he worked hard at that moment in time,
But there's a gigantic misconception about what is hard work. Sure,
getting up every day, making yourself available, never saying no.
I had the exact same philosophy. The issue becomes are
you prepared for that hit? And you do more than
And at that time I thought he did. At that
(35:03):
time because he was still writing, I thought he was
more connected with specific sources in the NBA, and he
was the first to give these kind of really hard,
hardcore opinions on the league, which had mostly been covered
by fluff. So I'm not sitting here saying diminishing, saying
he was lazy.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
He wasn't.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But as steven A grew and he did all these things,
I don't think his work ethic grew I thought. I
think he he makes the he draws a parallel between
working hard and showing up when they tell you to
show up, and it's part of it, but not the
whole thing, but the bigger the other part too.
Speaker 6 (35:41):
It go ahead most people with his ego, most people
in that position, think that just showing up is the work. Doug.
That's maybe my biggest complaint about talent in general, especially
former athletes. They think that showing up and talking is
their gift to the world. That is is the work.
And to me, that's like that's just being you is
(36:06):
the start of the work. But there is still a
bunch of grinding and homework that goes into those segments.
And that's my very issue with steven A constantly telling
us that he's doing all these things. He's just showing
up and talking. He's showing up and being steven A.
But more and more throughout the months and years, especially
(36:29):
during the election season, he had almost nothing of interest
to say other than just like shit talking and like
barely below surface level analysis. It was so blatant this
past season.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
So blatant, so incredibly blatant. And that happens, that happens
with guys. I mean you've pointed out with Tony Romo.
Right when Tony Romo came in to calling games in
the NFL, he was unbelievable. He was so insightful because
he had just gotten out of the league. But now
that he's made it, signed the big contract, Tony Roman
likes to play golf and drink beers and doesn't do
(37:05):
the work as much, you know. I mean, that's the
thing about Bill Raftery that raff does love have a
good time, but Raft does the work. He shows up
a shoot around, it, takes notes, he calls coaches, he
goes to practices, he does all those things. And that's
where real real work ethic is.
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Orlowski puts the work in ORSP. If you ever watched
Dan Rolsk or Lost could do any analyst work, you
know that a ton of hours went into that. I
respect that he's a guy that actually made the pros
and was a professional quarterback who puts him kind of
that same work mentality into his on air stuff. Almost
(37:42):
nobody does that on air.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
No, no, the uh. I think a lot of guys do.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I think he's in a position to kind of show
it off because he has that daily show, But no question,
I think he does the work.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Now the other there is another side to it.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You can do too much prep and try and get
I used to work with the play by play guy,
who's I think become very very good. But there's there's
the you got to editorialize, you gotta you gotta cut
some things right. You can't get every everything that's on
your board should not be said every game that you broadcast.
So there is a line to it. But the big
thing is Steven A like I work so hard, we
(38:18):
build him five hundred and fifty thousand dollars, he lost
his mind and gave him a show. By the way,
do you know there's only one guest host in the
history of that show.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It's called quite frankly, do you know that guest host.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Is I guess and it was you.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
That's right, motherfuckers. And here's what happened.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Some dude named Doug.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yes, I show up. This is a real thing. So
I show up Monday morning, New York City, nine am.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Production meeting.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Okay, so we have the We have the meeting and
they talk about the show and I think we had
that the first night. I think we had Pete Rose on.
I don't remember we had Pete Rose or we had
Sugar Ray Leonard live audience. So he gets done and
I asked for an office to go set my stuff
up in so I could, you know, write some of
(39:05):
the show. And they're like, what do you mean write
some of the show. Well, I I'm not at that
point in time my career. I wasn't great at reading teleprompter.
My only chance of reading teleprompter on a live open
is if I write it right. If I write it,
I can read it. And they're like, yeah, well steven
A doesn't do that, Like when does he? What does
(39:27):
he usually do? Like we don't know. He comes to
the meeting and then we don't see him until like an.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Hour before the show.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
So I mean, yeah, I look, I get it.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
We're all busy. We're all busy, but.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
And you know, I had a TV show once upon
a time, I know it's a lot of fucking work,
a lot of work, but there's a there. You can
there's a difference, and he does have the master ability
to kind of bullshit and uh, what's it called filibuster?
But you can't bullshit bullshitters, and that the whole the
(40:06):
I'm the James Brown. I work so hard. That's why
they gave me a show. Yeah, okay, and I'm not
I I don't know. I'm not trying. I know it
sounds like I'm just killing him, an jealous whatever. He's
had an unbelievably successful career and he will continue to
do so. But like, stop it with the you work
(40:28):
hard and nobody else does. That's just that's more than
a little offensive.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
Yes, has another talent, former NBA player or w NBA
player Monica McNutt.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
I saw this.
Speaker 6 (40:44):
She was on the set with Drewski. Now, Drew Ski
to me and this is another take. But is like
the Black THEO Vaughn. Like, Yeah, if you want a
great barometer for how dumb this country is getting, yes,
you can look at THEO Vaughn's ascent to popularity. This
(41:06):
my country is more and more thirsty for simple humor.
The well hanging fruit. If you act uneducated and unsophisticated,
you have the uh, you have the most opportunity in
the history of the world to be successful because there's
(41:27):
some kind of like people gravitate to people that are uneducated,
like being educated was something that somebody tried to do
that was being an asshole.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Well, it's it's it's really sophomore.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
It's like I talked to this about my son, you know,
which is one of the things in kind of sports
culture sometimes but even little kids, you know, the teachers
pat and being a nerd, like hey, hey, but you
know all these guys that are buying NBA teams, NFL
teams that are running the world, they're nerds. Okay that
you may be taught at a young age that that's
(42:01):
not important, but it's.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Really really important, really really important. So yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
The idea that that dumb is cool is a very
sophomoric idea.
Speaker 6 (42:15):
And so Drew Ski was on first take with Steven
A and then Monica McNutt tried to get him on
his jersey. He was wearing a number twenty jersey that
was silver and blue with sanders on the back.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yes, yes, it was a fairly looked like Honolula blue,
which is.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Yeah, yep, all right, so the jersey.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Let's get into it because obviously the ties to one
Chador Sanders, who balled out in.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
His first.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
I'm sorry, that's hie. Come on, the tie is the
Sanders there with me, there with me. Well, let's get
into your door because appropriate that you're also a fan.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
There, right.
Speaker 6 (42:57):
I just like the fact that she went right by it.
If that was if she brought this up to have
like a tie in with Shaduur and she just misspoke.
That's one thing. Most most people have seen and reacting
to this think that she was just stupid and thought
that that Shaduur was number twenty who rolled who wore
Honolulu blue. There's I think the truth was somewhere in
(43:20):
the middle. I think she was trying to make some
kind of a Shadueur Sanders tie in to the guy,
yes Sanders, but but yeah, the annoying part I guess
here is that I would have loved for her to
eat it in the moment. Yeah, let's just not gloss
over it. It's like, oh, you know what, minds.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well, this is this is a little bit do you
remember when Steven A was doing I don't know, his
Monday Night countdown or something, and they asked him about
the Chargers were playing the Chiefs, and he said.
Speaker 6 (43:48):
Hunter Henry Derrek Johnson.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, he goes, oh, I'm Hunter Henry's gonna have a
big night. Like Hunter Henry was out for the year
with the torny acl and it was like week nine
of the season, and instead of just eating it the moment,
he was like, no, it's mistaken out.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Then he came back and he said somebody else's name
who wasn't really a big factor into how they played anyway.
And you know, the other thing he could have done
was like, hey, it's the Chargers. Nobody pays attention. I
don't care. I haven't watched I've never watched them play
because of the charge.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Could he made a joke about that.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But the idea that he wouldn't just own it is
the disappointing thing.
Speaker 6 (44:23):
Right, Yes, one disappointing thing that you you constantly bring up.
And I'm starting to gravitate to your side on this one.
I'm not quite there yet, because I do think that
that people's opinions in the public square do matter. To
a certain extent, you don't think they matter and they
(44:44):
should be completely ignored. But this story kind of put
pushes me into your group. Lamar Jackson had the audacity
to quote tweet Charlie Kirk. For those that don't know
Charlie Kirk, he is the kind of the gen Z
(45:04):
Republican that goes on all the college campuses and tries
to talk liberals into being Republican. He's very conservative, and
I think he made the mistake of saying Jesus is
good on Twitter, and then Lamar Jackson had the audacity
to quote tweet that. And then this is where the
(45:26):
annoying part of the story comes in, Doug, this is
where you come in. The Daily Mail wrote this, Lamar
Jackson sparks a liberal meltdown on Twitter. The Mirror says
this headline Lamar Jackson slammed after reposting controversial right wing activist.
(45:48):
And then each story went on to list a bunch
of random people on Twitter reacting as as proof that
there was a liberal meltdown. So in this case, Doug,
I totally agree with you. The headline was misleading. I
have no idea why Lamar Jackson can't think Jesus is good.
(46:11):
I think the assumption was that Lamar Jackson's black, so
he can't be anything but a Democrat. So something's wrong here,
which is untrue. Anyone who saw the demographics from the
last election, especially with black men, it was off the
charts as far as a Republican nominee. But like, the
(46:31):
annoying part about this is that the Daily Mail and
the Mirror levitated the voices of random people on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, it's actually the brilliance of the right which they
make anything like if the left had any fucking brains
at all, you can find people on the right that
melt down with all kinds of stuff which you would
feel to be normal as well, Right, I mean the
crazy part, it's like, that's the Sidney Sweeney thing. The
crazy thing about Sidney Sweeney is, in truth, the super
(46:59):
far right. They don't want to celebrate, you know, women
like Cidney Sweeney. A lot of it's about our boobs
and they you know, it's like that's not to sums
conservative Christian values. But you can cherry pick an idiot
here too on social media and make that out into
being the greater narrative, which I feel like is totally disingenuous.
Lamar Jackson thing is totally disingenuous. Charlie Kirk is fucking obnoxious.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
He's pretty bright.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I've seen I know how he does what he does.
He does kind of the gotcha, I'm smarter than you
sort of thing, and he you know, he goes to
college campuses and you know, he tries to expose the
liberal mentality where it just again, I think he's an asshole,
and I think he's the worst part of where we
are in politics. And then this is kind of the
(47:43):
worst embodiment of it, Daily Mail being super far right,
all the things. You know, I'm sure New York Posts
probably involved with it with it as well. And i'd
also say that for Lamar Jackson again, like you can
it's okay to agree with somebody talking about Jesus if
you believe in Jesus and not be aligned completely with
them politically, right, that that's also part of the deal.
(48:07):
But yeah, I hate the use four or five randoms
to make a point about an entire side of the politics.
I think it's bullshit. I think it's disingenuous, and I
think it's a terrible part of what we try to
call the media.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
What's most annoying.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
That's that's I think most annoying, to be honest with you,
just the the fact that the right is very smart
and they scour social media for any random or two.
It does not matter the political stance you take, You're
gonna find some negative on social media for it, and
(48:46):
then just tagging it and sticking it and saying this
is the liberal left and what they meet.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Like, No, that's not. But it's brilliant and diabolical and annoying.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
That's why are we doing this? Because we can.
Speaker 6 (49:04):
Oh Man, one of my favorite baseball players is back
in the news. Tommy Fam insided a bench as clearing
situation last night when he flipped his bat drawing a walk.
He said after the game that he flipped his bat
drawing a walk because the catcher was bitching at him
about something earlier in the game. Oh, I love that.
(49:25):
Tommy Fam is the coworker that you give a wide
berth to. I think everyone has been around this coworker.
He's got a short temper and Tommy Fam brags about
the fact that he does mma in the offseason for
these very reasons. Tommy Fam asked about the situation after
the game. I'll never start anything, but I'll be prepared
(49:49):
to finish it. There's a reason why, you know, I
do all kinds of fighting in the off season because
I'm prepared to fuck somebody up.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
So you can take it as.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
What it is.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Tommy FAM's all the time. You know, I'm gonna fuck
somebody up, like you know, you know, I feel like
when I hear Tommy Fam talk about light talk like that?
Do you remember the movie stripes?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Relax, Francis, Relax? Why can't pay light fans? Sorry? Lighting
up Francis. Why do we play it for you? Because
we can. That's it for the end the Modus Podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Check out the radio show every day three to six Eastern,
twelve to two Pacific, Fox Sports Trido.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I Heart RADIOPP. I'm dug out like
All right, this is the Doug Gottlie Show. Heres in
the Bonus with Doug Gottley.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
What I was talking about it is Fox Sports Radio,
iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome in. Do Do Do Do Do?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Kind of a different pod that we're having today. So
our guest is going to be Mark Shapiro. And Mark's
been a lot of things, been a friend, that a boss,
uh than a friend. Now like just an unbelievably dynamic
part of the sports business industry.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
He's the guy who.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Like his his breakthrough moment was he was a producer
on Jim on the Old Jim Rome Show, a TV
show on ESPN two, when Jim Rome had the back
and forth with Jim Everett. Apparently he was the one
who told Jim Rome to call him Chris one more
(00:58):
time and that's when the table got turned over.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
That it's like an iconic.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sports TV moment, might be the most iconic sports TV
moment from there. And he was a guy who he
went to University of Iowa, got to ESPN as I
think like an intern, and then just became like just
worked his way up and went from the mailroom to
running programming, which is when you're running program you're essentially
running ESPN.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So the whole thing was fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Of the bosses I've worked for, I thought he was
the best because he was the most dynamic and engaging
and not risk averse. His run at ESPN was not perfect, right,
They did lose Sunday Night Football when he's there, and
he was the guy who is I just think they
were too far and they were like two years too
(01:47):
early on the phone. They lost a lot of money
on the phone. But imagine if ESPN the phone came
out when smartphones came out instead of using essentially a
sprint flip phone, and I think it would have dominated
the market. So there were things that he missed on
that he really I thought he really hit on.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And yeah, and then.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
He's he's the guy who gets credit for starting PTI
part of the eruption, which, for my money is the
greatest sports show in the history of sports shows. And Uh,
Tony's unbelievable. Will Bond is the the the perfect co
host for him. It's and and Mark uh claims he
(02:26):
figured it thought of the show when he was in
a cab in New York City. So now he runs
the company that one of there's three companies that they formed.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
He used to be second in charge to Ari Emmanuel, who.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Is probably the world's most famous agent, I would think, right,
and most famous agent because.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Uh he was.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Ari Emanuel was basically who they pretended was the top
agent at on Entoura Entourage. So Ari Emanuel he's the second,
he's the lieutenant, and Endeavor has started these three companies
that run WWE and UFC, and UFC just signed a
groundbreaking deal to have put their put their broadcasts on
(03:16):
Paramount and CBS. And so he's the president and CEO,
that's chief operating officer of TKO, and TKO now runs
UFC and runs.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
WWE, and so in one deal they had two.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
ESPN now has WWE, which is interesting because ESPN has
always been about sports.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Now this is.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Entertainment, which the e was in entertainment for WWE and
for ESPN. And he took UFC and they've taken it
off pay per view and now they put it onto
a streaming service on Paramount. So the reason I want
to have him on is one I think you'll get
a chance to understand, like, this is what a dynamic
business band sounds like to me. This is somebody who
(04:05):
I personally gravitate towards and trust me, Mark has never
even now like and we have a business relationship. I've
asked him for a couple of favors and he he
doesn't always say yes.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
He'll always be thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
And respond, but he's willing to hear out people that
he likes and respects and work hard and go like
well let me, let me let me work shop that
one and then yes or no whatever. But he's an
unbelievable guy and leader because he's gonna tell you things
and he's not gonna work behind cloak and dagger like
this that went down and this is what we're thinking
and this is what we did. So the second the
(04:41):
deal got consummated, I reached out and go, hey, would
you do would you hop on my radio show pod
and can we just talk about this deal? And he
was like, yeah, set it up. And so what I
think you'll hear it's like, what is it a toy
minutes long? A toy minutes and we just kind of
it just kind of takes you through the thought process
in this deal, and I think you're gonna walk away
with a couple of things. One how they got to being.
(05:03):
It's different than I thought because my former boss, it's
one of my bosses at CBS was David Person. David
used to be his number two when he was at ESPN.
I just thought it was a wink wink nod and
deal like this is a David Berson's now the president
of CBS Sports. This is him, David Burson's saying hey, well,
let's we got to change the dynamic here. Let's go
(05:24):
all in. That doesn't appear to be had. And he's
also not a liar. He just doesn't bullshit, doesn't have
time for it, doesn't need it. So anyway, Mark Shapiro,
super dynamic guy, and I thought you'd get a little
snapshot inside the Beltway of sports business and how deals
are actually done, and understand how a guy got to
(05:46):
run ESPN's programming at I think thirty two years old.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Doug Gottlieb
Show weekday. He's at three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Okay, so Mark, let's let's start with UFC as a
business model, pre dating your agreement with Paramount. Okay, you've
been on obviously both sides of these deals when you
looked at it and the pay per view model with ESPN,
how healthy a business was it for UFC?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
You know, it's been cyclical. I would say overall, the
relationship with ESPN just extraordinary and start there. I mean,
obviously ESPN is the destination for sports fans. It's appointment
viewing and there's no better marketing partner in sports twenty
four to seven. They want to get behind something, they
get behind it. You know it too well, because of
(06:43):
course when they don't, you also know that. And they
they did more for the UFC than any partner we've
ever had. And I would say the fact that we
are mainstream and so strong with young men and the
demos that we have. Of course it has a lot
to do with our fighting stable and Dana White in
the history, but ESPN took us to another level. So
(07:04):
it was great and we knew what we were walking into.
Doug right, this was an ESPN plus play that they're
going to use the ESPN and ESPN two as a
Barker channel to watch the prelimbs, maybe even watch the
early prims prelimbs and then move you over to ESPN
plus to sign up. So when we started with them,
we were in three million homes and we quickly grew
(07:27):
to twenty four million. And their words, not ours. We
were the anchor tenant of ESPN plus. So it was great.
But I think over time, over the seven years, a
couple things happened. One is, they just kept raising price
and it got to a point where it was just
too much. And we know that for a fact because
the pay per views started slipping, the total number of
(07:49):
buys and the pirrating went to insane levels. I mean,
and Dana, as you know, is now on the board
of metat. So we've seen unbelievable numbers across Facebook and
our relationship with YouTube, and tens of thousands of streams,
and that.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Give me, give me a sense, give me some when
you say the pirrating, okay, because I know what you're
talking about, because I've been to parties. We're like do
we buy this? Like no, no, we got a we
got a firestick.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
We're in there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
What are the type of numbers that would be pirated?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Tens of thousands of streams and how many people were
watching each of those streams? We don't even know. It
just it just got to be too much because it's
too expensive. You're paying eleven ninety nine to get ESPN
plus that's what you have to do monthly, and then
to get the pay per view you're paying eighty dollars.
So it almost becomes the sales prevention departments. And we
(08:39):
discussed this with ESPN and they had different data and
they just didn't agree, and they just kept going. They
did introduce some early bird specials if you buy two
weeks before and you get five bucks off, but it
was nothing that was going to solve the crisis. Now,
in their defense, the UFC, while obviously we have stars,
(08:59):
I mean Nunez and John Jones and you know justin
Gaetgee and a lot of folks along the way, Usman Kamara,
we didn't have anyone of the level of Connor McGregor
or Ron and Rousi in the in the later years
of our seven year deal. And they would point to
the pipeline and so just being fair across the board, Look,
you got to win to become a star. We can't manufacture.
(09:20):
It isn't this isn't the WWE, and so there might
be some truth to that, but the fighting itself, the matches,
the competition, the events have never been better, never been better,
and the fact that you have a lot of Russian
and Middle Eastern champions. It is what it is. You
got to beat the best, and our core fans get that.
You do want commercial stars, and I think over time
(09:43):
it's very cyclical. It just it rides different waves. When
when GSP left the UFC is, oh my god, they
have no other stars, and then someone else emerges. So
you just you gotta be patient and you got to
be in it for the long haul.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
If you were on the other side, right because I
like it. I like in this one to when you
were at ESPN and had you lost Monday Night football, right, yeah,
because Sunday night when we lost Sunday Night, but you
couldn't lose Monday Night. If you were on the other side,
(10:17):
what would you have done to prevent you from switching
to Paramount?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I wouldn't let it get away. I mean, let me
just say, Bob Iger is the biggest sports fan of
any executive in the media business. I mean, he started
at ABC Sports and he's a massive boxing fan too,
Like he knows the combat sports area. He came to
our Sphere event last year, which was a real spectacle. Look,
you're launching ESPN direct to consumer. I think it launches,
(10:45):
you know in the next couple of days. Here you're
charging twenty nine to ninety nine. You want to see
people either authenticate if they have cable and satellite already,
and if they don't, you want them to pay twenty
nine ninety nine. So you want all the premier SPORTSFC
fan is very, very passionate. I mean it's it's it's
the fervor. The fan avidity is insane, right, And forty percent.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Of our audiences women, so you've got moms buying, and
you've got obviously.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Young men, young women who watch six hour cards. I mean,
this is what you dream about. And there's forty three events.
So look, it's easy to play money. Morning Quarterback. I
don't know the budgets. I don't know their dollars. They've
got a lot of money to spend. They've made big
investments in the NFL, the CFP, the NBA, and you
know what, money doesn't stretch that far and their linear
(11:36):
business is declining, so they had to make some decisions.
I think the WWE deal is brilliant for them. The
idea of WrestleMania and ESPN brilliant, and maybe they just
couldn't afford everything, but having UFC, which is a year
round sport, while you're trying to launch D two C
at twenty nine to ninety nine, which would be well received,
(11:56):
versus the one hundred dollars fans are paying month now
for ESPN plus to get the paper fights. To me,
that's something I wouldn't have passed up. But I don't
criticize them. They're an important partner. There's still the premier
destination in sports, and we're going to help them build
this ESPN.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
D T too.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Ce.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Okay, I want to circle back to ESPN and the
relevancy in all sports in a second. But okay, so
then take me to the paramount CBS deal because there
also was the merger which was delayed right because of
the administration and the lawsuits there whatever. What was that
like to work through in that this is a gigantic deal. Yeah,
(12:37):
and yet you're also waiting on the merger to take
to get finalized. And there's a window there where even
when it gets finalized, it's like in ninety days to
where it can still blow up.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
That's right for the process.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Like, look, I would say they weren't the leader in
the clubhouse by any stretch, really not at all. We've
probably started these conversations Doug in February. Right, our ESPN
deal is up at the end of this year. ESPN
had a ninety day exclusive window, so there's no there's
a chance we wouldn't come out of the window. Now, Look,
(13:09):
it was our goal to come out of the window
because we thought we would either a split the package
or B split or no split. We were going to
get more money elsewhere, but we were all in on ESPN.
If they closed the deal, they closed the deal, similar
to the NBA deal. We got out of the window.
Then what nobody knew was Netflix had a thirty day
exclusive window. So when they negotiated to get raw, Netflix
(13:33):
is so good. I mean, they're so strategic, their team
is so top flight. They negotiated actually for a thirty
day window on UFC if and when we didn't get
out of the ESPN window with the deal, so and
we were like, what are you talking about? This is
a ww raw deal. You're not getting that an exclusive
negotiating winnow the UFC and they negotiated hard for it
(13:55):
and we gave it to them. So we then got
into a thirty day window with Netflix. It was going
very well that they asked for a fifteen day extension,
so we gave him another fifteen Once that forty five
days was up and no deal, then we went to
the market. So our first meeting with Paramount was June third,
(14:16):
And to your points, they were in the middle of
this obviously getting closure and trying to you know, get
past DOJ and antitrust and you know the sixty minutes fiasco.
I mean, there was a lot going on there, and
they were like, look, we love the UFC. David Ellison,
I know the UFC. Jeff Schell almost bought the UFC
(14:36):
back in the day when he was a Comcast David
Berson used to work for me at ESPN, and we
were remaining close. So everybody knew the power of the
UFC and what it could do for Paramount Plus, but
they really weren't in a position to make that deal.
So we continued conversations with Netflix, with YouTube, with Fox,
with ESPN, I mean, even to Zonne, I mean, we
(14:58):
were really in there with every and remember we we
really had two packages. Even though ESPN currently has it all.
There's the fight Night package, which is thirty days thirty
thirty fight nights a year, and then there's the pay
per views, where there's thirteen of them. So we had
forty three and we thought we would probably split them.
And I would say early on we figure and Paramount
(15:21):
CBS got out of their their regulatory process, they would
probably come in for the fight nights. It's not all thirty,
maybe fifteen, maybe ten. We might divide that up three
different ways. But in the end, when they closed, you know,
it was a we got fast in a hurry and
they were They came to us and said, you know what,
(15:41):
We're gonna take it all. And then we just got
into a fast negotiation and we closed it out in
forty eight hours. And now we are where we are
and we're gonna launch in January and it's gonna be
really exciting, and we're gonna build a sick card. I mean,
we're always trying to build sick cards. Hunter Campbell and
Dana White, this is their job, and we do that
every month. But we are very focused on having an
extraordinary launch event in the same way when ESPN Plus launched,
(16:05):
we had an event at Madison Square Garden. That was
the opening event, and we did like seven hundred thousand buys.
Now there are no buys. Think of that. If you
want to watch the UFC, if you already have Paramount Plus,
it's free, it's free, And of course CBS is free.
If you don't, you got to pay seven to ninety
nine a month, even if they raised the price at
(16:25):
some point eight nine, ninety ninety nine whatever, It isn't
one hundred dollars.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You mentioned.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
We mentioned ESPN, right. The fear is if you leave,
you lave ESPN, they won't they won't cover you. Right,
That's what happened with the NHL. That's that's part of
you know why the NHL felt like, you know, they
felt like it was unfair you and I obviously I
worked for you when you're at ESPN and you were
all about synergy and promoting from within, so it makes sense.
(16:54):
I think My question is not, well they still cover you,
is does it matter as much?
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Like when you were at ESPN and the way you
ran it, Sports Center was everything right, everything, Now this
is everything right, So honestly, does it matter as much?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Look, it's a great question, It's a great question. It's
very poignant. I'll tell you, I'll answer both of those,
the one you didn't want to ask and the one
you did ask. First of all, I do believe it matters.
They're still in sixty five million homes. I think the
ESPN direct to consumer product is going to be a
big winner. They have the CFP right, they have the SEC,
(17:39):
they have the NFL.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Same a similar demo, they.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Have the NBA. I mean, they have the stuff that matters.
And you want to be promoted and marketed and covered
in that neighborhood. Sure period, end of story. Even though
linear will keep declining at some rate. Want you want
to be in the machine, and they are still a machine.
There's a lot of great people. They're smart people. They
know what they're doing, and they know that UFC isn't
(18:05):
obviously a big sport, a premier sport, a mainstream sport now.
So they're going to cover it because that's their job
as a news organization. So that's first and foremost, and
I think that I think they will do it because
of just that. I will tell you, though, very candidly,
that when I was at ESPN and I wasn't running
the whole show yet, when we first lost NASCAR, which
(18:29):
is a big deal, A big deal, this is this
is you know, I don't even know around in the
late nineties or two thousand. It's a Fox and NBC.
We did stop covering NASCAR. It's closely as we formerly
had covered it. And I don't think there was no
meeting in the back room. Screw those guys. We lost NASCAR.
(18:50):
It's so highly rated it's crushing us. And it was
crushing us. In fact, that's why I got promoted, because
our ratings went in the tank. When you lose an
every weekend five rating or a six rating, it's going
you can't replace that. And those races did big numbers
and that led to my ascension, and ultimately we got
the NBA and Wimbledon to replace that, and then we
(19:12):
went on a tear. But I would just tell you
that there was no backroom conversation. Let's promote them less
because of revenge or spite. That did not happen. But
I think just naturally, kind of in the water, you
just aren't thinking of it as much top of mind.
But they learned their lesson on that and they are
aware of the criticism, and I think they will be
(19:33):
sensitive to that, and I know we will be calling
them six ways to Sunday hourly if we feel like
they're not doing their job of promoting a premier mainstream
sport like the UFC.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Last thing, And I know you got to go, and
I appreciate your time, of course.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
And I shouldn't say promoted, covering covering and promoting.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Look and covering it is promoting it, right, it really is.
It works together the rise of UFC right from when
you were first a young producer at ESPN to now,
right like the NFL is one hundred year built, hey, exactly,
(20:13):
the NBA has been one hundred years. Major League Baseball
is over one hundred years to go from where they
were even in the early two thousands where they were
trying to get to mainstream to now you're talking about
a premiere property on the Tiffany Network. This is a
story that I don't think has ever played out as
(20:34):
such before in sports, is there, Doug.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I'll tell you this. When I was running program, I
got promoted to the head of program, I mean thirty
two years old. In twenty ten, Dana White and the
Fertida brothers came and pitched and they pitched hard on
the UFC, like I wasn't sure if I'd get if
I said no, if I might get beat up or
they left the room right, And I didn't do it.
(21:01):
And one of the reasons I didn't do it wasn't
all my decision. The mouse Disney wasn't about to put
that that sport where it was with blood on the
mat on ESPN or ABC Sports. Now, completely different story. Obviously,
it is mainstream. It is the rise, the evolution, the ascension,
(21:21):
the following, the fan base, the number of fighters around
the globe, how global it is. I mean you're talking
two and ten countries and territories that the UFC is
currently broadcasted. You have six.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Hundred plus fighters, right, you have seventy five different countries
of where they hail from, the fighters. You have fifty
different languages that broadcast UFC fights. I can't even believe it.
I can't believe where it has has gone. You know
how it is has come that far. ESPN has been
(21:57):
a big part of that. I mean, they really super
were charged it. They they put turbo into this. Fox
was important, Spike was important, Every step of the way
was important. But I would tell you ESPN had had
more to do with than anything else. And of course
Dana White and his team and the way they got
behind it.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
And locally and built these stars, these stars that won
and covered.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
The survive COVID two absolutely survived COVID right and expanded
in COVID when when others had no we had no
live sports.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
And I tell you he was the guy. He was
calling Ari and I by the outward a I'm not
going down. UFC doesn't go down. We will find a
place to do this. We were on our way to
do a vent at Tachi Wallace, an Indian reservation in California,
so we wouldn't miss a month, and by the way,
we needed to because money wise, we would have been
(22:48):
in trouble just at that time, Endeavor, all of our
businesses were shut down like everybody else, and yet we
had this huge staff and expenses and media rights fees
we had to pay at IMG and so we needed
to keep the show going. And he worked out a
deal which would have kept us going in ESPN would
have loved it. And at the end of the day,
it was Newsome and Bob Iger that said, hey too soon,
(23:11):
probably insensitive to what's going on, we need you to
stand down, so we didn't do that event. We waited
a month and then Bank Fight Island and they were
ready for it. Abu Dhabi, the Bubble Newsom was good
with it, Bob Iger was good with it, and we
moved on and that saved the day. To your point,
so many fans sampled it for the first time and
(23:33):
became full time fans.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, listen, congrats on getting the deal done. I'm sure
you all have to do another one and I really
really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Great to see it. Congratulations on all your success.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Doug Gottlieb
Show weekday, he said three pm Eastern noon Pacific on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app, and now.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Every day of this time in the Bunus podcast play
for your obvious portion of a Fox Sports Radio show.
Here's Dan Patrick talking about Scotty Scheffler.
Speaker 7 (24:04):
I hate when somebody backs into a title, and Scotty
Scheffler did not back into a title. He went out,
grabbed it and won it, his fifth PGA Tour title
of the season and the first player to win five
straight times on the PGA Tour in consecutive years since
Tiger Woods back in six and seven. And I know
it sounds blasphemous to say, you know, put Scotti, Scheffler
(24:27):
and Tiger Woods in the same you know, conversation. I'm
not talking about the style, the presentation. I'm talking about
the end result. And that's where Scotty deserves to be
put in that category. Now, granted it's a smaller sample size,
but if you're looking at Tiger at his tiger Ish peak,
Scotty is, you know, at least close, he's at least
(24:50):
in the conversation with that. And once again, he's never
he still looks like Carl Spackler from Caddyshack whenever I
see him. You know, he's got the beard there and
it just looks like Bill Murray's character in caddy Shack.
But he did it in a methodical way once again,
and very impressive going into the Tour Championship.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, he's so awesome. And I do think there
is something too. I said, I was critical of his
you know, it doesn't bring me joy or life to win.
He's just not wired that way. But I do think
there is something. It's like that book, the subtle art
of not giving a fuck, right, is that when you've
(25:32):
released and he thought that this really really matters, you
can just go play and let your god given skill
take you home. But he is one unbelievably talented dude,
and his ability to put big win after big win
together is I mean, just he's the best golfer in
the world. I don't I don't think there's really an
(25:55):
argument there. Here's Colin Calhert talking about the Bengals.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
You look at Cincinnati and you go, well, that we
really like Zach Taylor. I'm not sure. It's just too
lobsided an organization. It's Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase and everything else.
Their de facto general manager is ninety years old Mike Brown.
They have the smallest personnel department in the NFL. That's
why they don't take big risks like the Philadelphia Eagles,
(26:21):
who are constantly trying to get slightly better. They don't
do that.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
They beat down their culture.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
They beat down all their star players to squeeze every
last ounce out. And I hear this, cod we made
a Super Bowl.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Oh wake up.
Speaker 8 (26:36):
When you're not paying your rookie quarterback the big money,
yet you don't have to be is buttoned up. Once
you paid Jalen Hurts or Ma Holmes or Josh Allen
or Matt Stafford, you've got to be more buttoned up.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
It's all about the margins.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
So, I mean, the first two drives of the game,
Washington had one hundred and sixty yards running. Cincinnati's defense
is atrocious. I think it's the worst in the league
without Trey Hendrickson, absolutely the Pitts, and yet they're beating
down Trey Hendrickson for every penny. He's easily their best
defensive player.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, he is.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Their defense is bad last year, it's probably gonna be
bad this year. The organization is cheap, but they actually
are doing a really good job generally in the draft
and they try and keep their own So I mean, again,
like we can be critical of the Bengals, but they've
been pretty good. They did go to a Super Bowl
(27:33):
a couple of years ago, and they're trying to fix
their defense without arguably their best defensive player who wants
an absorbment contract that I don't think he'd get anywhere.
So yeah, look, the Eagles are great. They they're kind
of a machine. They're doing an awesome job and turns
out they got a quarterback who I don't think anybody
(27:55):
thinks is as talented as Joe Burrow, but they got
him at a lower number Joe Burrow. And they've been
able to really do well in drafting despite their success.
But it's not like the Bengals have been bad and
draft they're just their defenses. It sucks because they have
so much invested in the offense so much. But let's
just not fall in the trap of using the preseason
(28:19):
is telling you who teams are.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Big mistake.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Here's Brady Quinn talking about the Big pet Tens proposed
playoff expansion plan.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
Would they say twenty eight teams in this one? Yeah,
come on, dude, if we're being real right now, let's
be real, let's talk about the teams that like legitimately
have a shot at winning a national championship. And mind you,
I'm not saying that this is the case in the
NFL too, But if we want to look at the
top eight ranked teams, maybe nine, that's all.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's all my opinion.
Speaker 9 (28:53):
If you're not Texas, Penn State, Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia,
Notre Dame, Oregon, Alabama, LSU, I'm sorry I just I
don't see it. I don't see it. They might upset
Miami fans who are sitting right there at ten. It
might have set some Arizona State fans, Illinois, South Carolina, Michigan.
I'm sorry, I don't see it, Florida.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
Yeah, bet don't see it.
Speaker 9 (29:14):
Don't see a fore you this year, Like if you
could make a bet and you take any one of
those nine teams and hell, I'll even say probably stops
at seven.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, I mean, it's too many teams.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
The ideal thing for me was has always been that,
however many conferences you want to include, you make automatic
bids for those cups so that the conference matters, conference matters. Now,
it's hard because it's not going to be an even schedule.
Some is gonna get left out, whatever. But there does
(29:53):
get to a point to where you're like talking about
too many, talk about too many. I think the reason
that that number those seems reasonable to most people is
you're like, well, really, it's just going to use the
bowl games and teams playing in high level games, which
I don't disagree with, but it's how many teams should
legitimately have a chance to compete for national title. And
(30:18):
I think you know last year was a per example.
You know there's like four or five really like you
know on a given year, this gonna.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Be four or five.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
But if you figure the top three from the Big ten,
to top three from the SEC, the top one or
two from ACC and Big twelve. Right, so let's just
say right there, you're at nine. I think sixteen is
really the limit. It's a limit. That's what the Fox said.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
What does the fuck say?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Let's find out who what's annoying? Jason Stewart.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
And now it's your annoying.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Hey, this first one is it's gonna be teed up
for you. I saw you tweet about this. This is
very inside the industry when you're talking about TV appearances
and compensation. And Stephen A. Smith wants everyone to know
that he's the hardest working person in the business, and
he goes out of his way to do that. And
(31:25):
I guess he was on the Gilarinas podcast talking about
all of his TV hits with.
Speaker 10 (31:31):
ESPN at the time. You signed for appearances. So I
was getting paid like one thousand dollars in appearance for
two hundred and twenty five appearances a year. And then
the boss who was at the time, Mark Shapiro, he
was the boss at ESPN at the time, and he
lost his damn mind because he got a bill for
five hundred and fifty thousand dollars and he said, this
(31:54):
is three hundred and twenty five thousand dollars more than
I signed this man for. That makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
How the hell did that happen?
Speaker 10 (32:02):
And the producers were like, we love him, and he
never says no. So they had penciled me in for
two hundred and twenty five appearances, but I did five
hundred and fifty, and so when I did five and fifty,
he was like, when does this dude sleep. He saw
the numbers, he saw the way people gravitated towards me,
he saw me put me on NBA shoot Around is
what it was called the time instead of Countdown. And
(32:23):
when he put me on NBA shoot Around and stuff
like that, and the ratings took off and all of that,
he said, Yo, I'm gonna give this man his own show.
And that's how it happened.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Okay, there's a lot of truth to what he's saying,
because I was at ESPN at the same time and
we had Mark Shapiro on on today, and I know
that to I know, all of what he's saying is accurate.
The inaccuracy is the and again maybe he calculated it
(32:54):
in a different way, but that seems impossible because it
was one thousand dollars, right. That was their big thing
at the time was if we're going to pay you,
whenever we pay you, we get you for the day.
Whether it's two minutes or two hours, didn't matter, it's
the day. My I'll just inside the beltway, right. You
(33:17):
want to do numbers. My initial radio contract there was
one hundred and eighty five thousand and two hundred radio appearances,
two hundred radio appearances, and I would only get a
thousand I got I think it was like eighteen fifty
(33:37):
for a college basketball game, which was super super low,
and I had I think I had eight. And then
I had two hundred radio appearances. And anytime I was
on television because I was a radio employee, if it
was the same day that I did radio, I got nothing.
If it was an additional day, I got one thousand dollars.
(33:59):
So the first year, the only way I could get
on TV, this is in two thousand and three, was
they would only let me do ESPN news at the
time on days I did radio. The second year I
was there, I started doing ESPN news hits well all
Stephen they spit did the same and it was one
thousand dollars a day. Whether they use you for one
(34:21):
ESPN it wasn't if you did, because they used to
have a bunch of different ESPN news shows. And the
last part to it is, and this is the part
that I know you're getting at Jay stew which you're
I'm getting into the details of it. You're talking about
Steven A. Braggan as if he's the hardest, he's the
James Brown, the hardest working man in show business. I
would only point out a couple of things. I do
(34:43):
think that he worked hard at that moment in time,
But there's a gigantic misconception about what is hard work. Sure,
getting up every day, making yourself available, never saying no.
I had the exact same philosophy. The issue becomes are
you prepared for that hit? And you do more than
And at that time I thought he did. At that
(35:03):
time because he was still writing, I thought he was
more connected with specific sources in the NBA, and he
was the first to give these kind of really hard,
hardcore opinions on the league, which had mostly been covered
by fluff. So I'm not sitting here saying diminishing, saying
he was lazy.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
He wasn't.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But as steven A grew and he did all these things,
I don't think his work ethic grew I thought. I
think he he makes the he draws a parallel between
working hard and showing up when they tell you to
show up, and it's part of it, but not the
whole thing, but the bigger the other part too.
Speaker 6 (35:41):
It go ahead most people with his ego, most people
in that position, think that just showing up is the work. Doug.
That's maybe my biggest complaint about talent in general, especially
former athletes. They think that showing up and talking is
their gift to the world. That is is the work.
And to me, that's like that's just being you is
(36:06):
the start of the work. But there is still a
bunch of grinding and homework that goes into those segments.
And that's my very issue with steven A constantly telling
us that he's doing all these things. He's just showing
up and talking. He's showing up and being steven A.
But more and more throughout the months and years, especially
(36:29):
during the election season, he had almost nothing of interest
to say other than just like shit talking and like
barely below surface level analysis. It was so blatant this
past season.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
So blatant, so incredibly blatant. And that happens, that happens
with guys. I mean you've pointed out with Tony Romo.
Right when Tony Romo came in to calling games in
the NFL, he was unbelievable. He was so insightful because
he had just gotten out of the league. But now
that he's made it, signed the big contract, Tony Roman
likes to play golf and drink beers and doesn't do
(37:05):
the work as much, you know. I mean, that's the
thing about Bill Raftery that raff does love have a
good time, but Raft does the work. He shows up
a shoot around, it, takes notes, he calls coaches, he
goes to practices, he does all those things. And that's
where real real work ethic is.
Speaker 6 (37:21):
Orlowski puts the work in ORSP. If you ever watched
Dan Rolsk or Lost could do any analyst work, you
know that a ton of hours went into that. I
respect that he's a guy that actually made the pros
and was a professional quarterback who puts him kind of
that same work mentality into his on air stuff. Almost
(37:42):
nobody does that on air.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
No, no, the uh. I think a lot of guys do.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I think he's in a position to kind of show
it off because he has that daily show, But no question,
I think he does the work.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Now the other there is another side to it.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You can do too much prep and try and get
I used to work with the play by play guy,
who's I think become very very good. But there's there's
the you got to editorialize, you gotta you gotta cut
some things right. You can't get every everything that's on
your board should not be said every game that you broadcast.
So there is a line to it. But the big
thing is Steven A like I work so hard, we
(38:18):
build him five hundred and fifty thousand dollars, he lost
his mind and gave him a show. By the way,
do you know there's only one guest host in the
history of that show.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It's called quite frankly, do you know that guest host.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Is I guess and it was you.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
That's right, motherfuckers. And here's what happened.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Some dude named Doug.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yes, I show up. This is a real thing. So
I show up Monday morning, New York City, nine am.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Production meeting.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Okay, so we have the We have the meeting and
they talk about the show and I think we had
that the first night. I think we had Pete Rose on.
I don't remember we had Pete Rose or we had
Sugar Ray Leonard live audience. So he gets done and
I asked for an office to go set my stuff
up in so I could, you know, write some of
(39:05):
the show. And they're like, what do you mean write
some of the show. Well, I I'm not at that
point in time my career. I wasn't great at reading teleprompter.
My only chance of reading teleprompter on a live open
is if I write it right. If I write it,
I can read it. And they're like, yeah, well steven
A doesn't do that, Like when does he? What does
(39:27):
he usually do? Like we don't know. He comes to
the meeting and then we don't see him until like an.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Hour before the show.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
So I mean, yeah, I look, I get it.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
We're all busy. We're all busy, but.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
And you know, I had a TV show once upon
a time, I know it's a lot of fucking work,
a lot of work, but there's a there. You can
there's a difference, and he does have the master ability
to kind of bullshit and uh, what's it called filibuster?
But you can't bullshit bullshitters, and that the whole the
(40:06):
I'm the James Brown. I work so hard. That's why
they gave me a show. Yeah, okay, and I'm not
I I don't know. I'm not trying. I know it
sounds like I'm just killing him, an jealous whatever. He's
had an unbelievably successful career and he will continue to
do so. But like, stop it with the you work
(40:28):
hard and nobody else does. That's just that's more than
a little offensive.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
Yes, has another talent, former NBA player or w NBA
player Monica McNutt.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
I saw this.
Speaker 6 (40:44):
She was on the set with Drewski. Now, Drew Ski
to me and this is another take. But is like
the Black THEO Vaughn. Like, Yeah, if you want a
great barometer for how dumb this country is getting, yes,
you can look at THEO Vaughn's ascent to popularity. This
(41:06):
my country is more and more thirsty for simple humor.
The well hanging fruit. If you act uneducated and unsophisticated,
you have the uh, you have the most opportunity in
the history of the world to be successful because there's
(41:27):
some kind of like people gravitate to people that are uneducated,
like being educated was something that somebody tried to do
that was being an asshole.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Well, it's it's it's really sophomore.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
It's like I talked to this about my son, you know,
which is one of the things in kind of sports
culture sometimes but even little kids, you know, the teachers
pat and being a nerd, like hey, hey, but you
know all these guys that are buying NBA teams, NFL
teams that are running the world, they're nerds. Okay that
you may be taught at a young age that that's
(42:01):
not important, but it's.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Really really important, really really important. So yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
The idea that that dumb is cool is a very
sophomoric idea.
Speaker 6 (42:15):
And so Drew Ski was on first take with Steven
A and then Monica McNutt tried to get him on
his jersey. He was wearing a number twenty jersey that
was silver and blue with sanders on the back.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yes, yes, it was a fairly looked like Honolula blue,
which is.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Yeah, yep, all right, so the jersey.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Let's get into it because obviously the ties to one
Chador Sanders, who balled out in.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
His first.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
I'm sorry, that's hie. Come on, the tie is the
Sanders there with me, there with me. Well, let's get
into your door because appropriate that you're also a fan.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
There, right.
Speaker 6 (42:57):
I just like the fact that she went right by it.
If that was if she brought this up to have
like a tie in with Shaduur and she just misspoke.
That's one thing. Most most people have seen and reacting
to this think that she was just stupid and thought
that that Shaduur was number twenty who rolled who wore
Honolulu blue. There's I think the truth was somewhere in
(43:20):
the middle. I think she was trying to make some
kind of a Shadueur Sanders tie in to the guy,
yes Sanders, but but yeah, the annoying part I guess
here is that I would have loved for her to
eat it in the moment. Yeah, let's just not gloss
over it. It's like, oh, you know what, minds.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well, this is this is a little bit do you
remember when Steven A was doing I don't know, his
Monday Night countdown or something, and they asked him about
the Chargers were playing the Chiefs, and he said.
Speaker 6 (43:48):
Hunter Henry Derrek Johnson.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, he goes, oh, I'm Hunter Henry's gonna have a
big night. Like Hunter Henry was out for the year
with the torny acl and it was like week nine
of the season, and instead of just eating it the moment,
he was like, no, it's mistaken out.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Then he came back and he said somebody else's name
who wasn't really a big factor into how they played anyway.
And you know, the other thing he could have done
was like, hey, it's the Chargers. Nobody pays attention. I
don't care. I haven't watched I've never watched them play
because of the charge.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Could he made a joke about that.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But the idea that he wouldn't just own it is
the disappointing thing.
Speaker 6 (44:23):
Right, Yes, one disappointing thing that you you constantly bring up.
And I'm starting to gravitate to your side on this one.
I'm not quite there yet, because I do think that
that people's opinions in the public square do matter. To
a certain extent, you don't think they matter and they
(44:44):
should be completely ignored. But this story kind of put
pushes me into your group. Lamar Jackson had the audacity
to quote tweet Charlie Kirk. For those that don't know
Charlie Kirk, he is the kind of the gen Z
(45:04):
Republican that goes on all the college campuses and tries
to talk liberals into being Republican. He's very conservative, and
I think he made the mistake of saying Jesus is
good on Twitter, and then Lamar Jackson had the audacity
to quote tweet that. And then this is where the
(45:26):
annoying part of the story comes in, Doug, this is
where you come in. The Daily Mail wrote this, Lamar
Jackson sparks a liberal meltdown on Twitter. The Mirror says
this headline Lamar Jackson slammed after reposting controversial right wing activist.
(45:48):
And then each story went on to list a bunch
of random people on Twitter reacting as as proof that
there was a liberal meltdown. So in this case, Doug,
I totally agree with you. The headline was misleading. I
have no idea why Lamar Jackson can't think Jesus is good.
(46:11):
I think the assumption was that Lamar Jackson's black, so
he can't be anything but a Democrat. So something's wrong here,
which is untrue. Anyone who saw the demographics from the
last election, especially with black men, it was off the
charts as far as a Republican nominee. But like, the
(46:31):
annoying part about this is that the Daily Mail and
the Mirror levitated the voices of random people on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, it's actually the brilliance of the right which they
make anything like if the left had any fucking brains
at all, you can find people on the right that
melt down with all kinds of stuff which you would
feel to be normal as well, Right, I mean the
crazy part, it's like, that's the Sidney Sweeney thing. The
crazy thing about Sidney Sweeney is, in truth, the super
(46:59):
far right. They don't want to celebrate, you know, women
like Cidney Sweeney. A lot of it's about our boobs
and they you know, it's like that's not to sums
conservative Christian values. But you can cherry pick an idiot
here too on social media and make that out into
being the greater narrative, which I feel like is totally disingenuous.
Lamar Jackson thing is totally disingenuous. Charlie Kirk is fucking obnoxious.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
He's pretty bright.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I've seen I know how he does what he does.
He does kind of the gotcha, I'm smarter than you
sort of thing, and he you know, he goes to
college campuses and you know, he tries to expose the
liberal mentality where it just again, I think he's an asshole,
and I think he's the worst part of where we
are in politics. And then this is kind of the
(47:43):
worst embodiment of it, Daily Mail being super far right,
all the things. You know, I'm sure New York Posts
probably involved with it with it as well. And i'd
also say that for Lamar Jackson again, like you can
it's okay to agree with somebody talking about Jesus if
you believe in Jesus and not be aligned completely with
them politically, right, that that's also part of the deal.
(48:07):
But yeah, I hate the use four or five randoms
to make a point about an entire side of the politics.
I think it's bullshit. I think it's disingenuous, and I
think it's a terrible part of what we try to
call the media.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
What's most annoying.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
That's that's I think most annoying, to be honest with you,
just the the fact that the right is very smart
and they scour social media for any random or two.
It does not matter the political stance you take, You're
gonna find some negative on social media for it, and
(48:46):
then just tagging it and sticking it and saying this
is the liberal left and what they meet.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Like, No, that's not. But it's brilliant and diabolical and annoying.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
That's why are we doing this? Because we can.
Speaker 6 (49:04):
Oh Man, one of my favorite baseball players is back
in the news. Tommy Fam insided a bench as clearing
situation last night when he flipped his bat drawing a walk.
He said after the game that he flipped his bat
drawing a walk because the catcher was bitching at him
about something earlier in the game. Oh, I love that.
(49:25):
Tommy Fam is the coworker that you give a wide
berth to. I think everyone has been around this coworker.
He's got a short temper and Tommy Fam brags about
the fact that he does mma in the offseason for
these very reasons. Tommy Fam asked about the situation after
the game. I'll never start anything, but I'll be prepared
(49:49):
to finish it. There's a reason why, you know, I
do all kinds of fighting in the off season because
I'm prepared to fuck somebody up.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
So you can take it as.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
What it is.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Tommy FAM's all the time. You know, I'm gonna fuck
somebody up, like you know, you know, I feel like
when I hear Tommy Fam talk about light talk like that?
Do you remember the movie stripes?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Relax, Francis, Relax? Why can't pay light fans? Sorry? Lighting
up Francis. Why do we play it for you? Because
we can. That's it for the end the Modus Podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Check out the radio show every day three to six Eastern,
twelve to two Pacific, Fox Sports Trido.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I Heart RADIOPP. I'm dug out like
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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