Gottlieb - All Ball - part 1 of 2 - with special Guest Jay Bilas

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2. All Ball with Doug Gottliebis part of the Colin Cowherd Podcast Network.All Ballis an unfiltered podcast covering the biggest stories in college basketball and the NBA. Join Doug as he brings his unique perspective as a TV analyst and radio host. In this first of two episodes, Doug talks with Jay Bilas about some of the latest rule changes in the NBA, how his career began, meeting Coach K and what it was like playing in Europe. Follow Doug on twitter at @GottliebShow and go to theherdnow.com to find the latest content.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, Welcome into the All Ball Podcast. I'm your host,
Doug Gotlick. Thanks so much for downloading, and I'm really
excited for this week's pod. My guest is J Billis,
lead college basketball anatist for ESPN, a former colleague of
mine and someone I consider a friend. And it's interesting
on how Twitter and UH sometimes debate segments on TV
shows leave you arguing both sides. We'll get into some

(00:27):
amateurism discussion, but I also think that Jay is kind
of a fascinating Guy's interesting to me. I think you'd
be interesting to you as someone who, like me, grew
up in southern California. He went to Duke, starred there,
and UH end up being drafted in the NBA, played overseas,
and then worked his way into being arguably the top

(00:49):
broadcaster in the entire sport. Um In the meantime, he
was also AH. He was also a grad assistant at
Duke and of course has very close ties to the
Duke program. He called see a tournament games. He's done
just about everything, including working with and then kind of
usurping the great Hall of Famer Dick vital. So J

(01:09):
Billis will be our guest and we will get into
some amateurs and talk, but I don't think that's the
only thing that's pertinent when listening to J Billis story,
because you've heard his side on amateurism, you've heard mine.
But I think we'll have a thoughtful and engaging discussion.
A couple of other things you need to know about
the NBA and about college basketball. They have changed some

(01:31):
of the rules in the NBA, for example, or they
appear to be going to change some of the rules
in the NBA with the fourteen second reset on offensive rebounds.
I love that. I love it. As some of you know,
I coached overseas last summer in Israel the Maccabi Games,
and I quickly learned just how different the game is
based upon the rules and based upon the shot clock.

(01:53):
And now I knew about the fourteen second reset, so
it was something we'd actually practiced for. And one of
the things I think it does is it doesn't allow
you to bring it out, get a reset, get another
set um, and so it kind of makes the offense
more attentive to getting a quick shot off the rebound,
and it also makes the defense not just try and

(02:13):
defend against the second shot, but also contest three point
shots on kickouts. My basic philosophy when I was coaching
was um and would would always be even if you
didn't have the fourteen second reset. Is you get an
offensive rebound, and if you have a putback lay up, fine,
If not, we want a space and look to get
a quick three. You get to get a quick rhythm
three for a couple of reasons. One, Obviously, the defense

(02:36):
lets its guard down as everybody looks at the basketball
and runs towards the balls like moth to a like
a moth to a light. And so a lot of
times your shooters are open. Secondly shooters themselves, everyone shoots
better when the ball is coming from inside out. Much
like your mom or your dad, or your high school
coach or your manager feeding you jump shots. You shoot
a higher percentage when the ball is coming inside out.

(02:57):
And then what I found is if you make it
about hey, let's get a dagger three, which is something
that I know others have done it. I'm gonna credit Davidson.
They were the first I know of to really use
it in the n c A tournament. Of course, Duke
borrowed it when they want a national championship in two
thousand and ten. It was something that that they changed
really really remarkable on how now the Golden State Warriors

(03:19):
really used that philosophy. And you'll watch teams when they're
playing Golden State to give up an offensive rebound and
Draymond Green or Andrea Guadala, and you'll see teams just
run right to the shooters and not even concern themselves
sometimes with layups given up on offensive board. So it
changes the way you you coach offense. It changes the
way you coach defense. It makes you much more attentive
not just to the boards, but to the open three
point shooters. And look, you get more shots up, you

(03:42):
have more energy. It gets exciting as guys run to
rebound and kick out and look to shoot threes, and
a almost becomes a team three point shot. You can
almost tracking like an offensive rebound as a team three
point shot, because oftentimes one it takes one shot, It
takes an offensive rebounder, which means you know, one person
showing great effort oftentimes to kout leads to even more
moss running to lights and then you know an extra

(04:04):
pass or two or three extra passes, and then you
ultimately get a three. Sometimes all five players will touch
the basketball. Even though the idea is get an offensive rebound,
you don't have a putback. You kick it out for
an open jump shot. So I'm all for that rule change.
I think it's a good one. The other one i'd
like to see changed. I love international basketball that you
can touch a basketball when it's on the cylinder. Now,

(04:28):
many people don't understand this rule if they're just a fan.
And I know, if you're listening to the show, you're
probably a hardcore basketball fan or player or coach or whatever.
But if you're not, just so you know, like normal
rules of goaltending, ball on the way down is still
a goaltend. The difference is once it hits the cylinder.
That because that's a live ball. And again that makes

(04:48):
guys go after the boards, go after the ball when
it's on the rim, and on a second shot, remember
a second shot and free throw. The balls rattling around
the rim, you can knock it off. On the other hand,
you can also knock it in. And if the pensively
you try and knock it off and it goes in,
the offensive team gets two points instead of just one point.
So there is a risk reward to it, even though
I think common logic would be it would cut down

(05:10):
the percentage. You can't hit the ball through the inside
of the rim, right, you can't go up through the net,
so the normal rules of goaltending apply with the exception
of this cylinder rule. I'd like to see that rule changed.
I just would. I think that would again make it,
you know, I don't know if it bring back the
big guy, to make the big guy more part of
of college basketball, more part of the NBA, and I

(05:31):
think that's the way to do so, So kudos did
the n B A I'm all for college basketball. Also
not resetting the shot clock all the way on an
offensive rebound. I think that'd be a great idea, a
great rule change as well. All right, let's welcome him in.
He's the lead college basketball analyst for ESPN. Of course,
he's called n C a term in games going back
to when he worked also with CBS and Duke all

(05:53):
um as Uh not only as an undergrad but also
has a law degree. He's the one, He's the only
He's j Billis. He joins us here on the All
Ball Podcast. How do you want to be introduced, like
outside of like what what's the what's the what's the way?
Which when you walk into a restaurant and a friend
introduced you to another friend, Hey, this is Jay. I mean,
because you do have a lot of stuff to your resume. Well,

(06:16):
that's a good question, Doug. I hadn't really thought about that. Um.
I know when when people say, hey, you know, what's
your title? I always say, just you know, ESPN or
ESPN Basketball Analysts or something. Um, you don't need a
whole resume deal, but that that's what I see myself
as now, just as a as a basketball broadcaster, not
as a broadcaster, but but specifically around basketball. So I'd

(06:41):
probably say ESPN. I think they call us basketball analysts,
you know, like we're like we're trading stocks or something.
I don't know when that happened. He used to be
We're a color analyst. Um. But yeah, I'd probably say
ESPN Basketball analyst. Okay, there's there's a lot to basketball
i'd like to get to, and there's some that believe
you should be the commissioner of all things basketball with

(07:01):
the n C. I want to want to get to that.
But what about the college game itself? Um, do you
do you like the game? When you when you call games,
when you watch games, when you study games. Do you
like watching college basketball as much now as you did
when you started in the biz? I do. Um, I
think the game is in a really good place right now.

(07:21):
I think for a period of years, maybe you know,
four or five years ago, and then for maybe a
ten year period, and I'm probably just you know, guessing
at that I thought it had devolved into a clutch
and grab game where it became overly physical, and the
officials were not calling the game the way it had
been called maybe when you played, or certainly when I played, UM,

(07:45):
and I think it scoring was going down. I think
that was the reason it wasn't. The defenses were getting
that much better, so that they were getting away with more,
and the coaches were way more creative and as you
know better than I do, sort of you know, fauling
with your chest and bumpings and grabbing guys coming off
the screens and disrupting timing that were clear fouls that

(08:06):
just weren't being called. So we've done a better job
the last two or three years, i'd say, and cleaning
that up, and I think the game's gotten better. Um.
I heard a little bit of what you were talking
about before, and I agree with you a thousand percent,
is that, you know, whether we go to feeble rules
or whatever, there are so many things that we can
do to enhance the game. And I'm I understand and

(08:27):
and and respect my colleagues. It may may even be
you at certain times saying, look, if it ain't broke,
don't fix it. But but there's a part of me
that says, you know, nobody ever says if it ain't broke,
don't improve it, or if it ain't broke, don't maintain it.
And uh, and there are certain things where the game
evolves that we need to change. And I think FEEBA
has given us a great example of how they can

(08:51):
adapt to the way coaches changed the way they're doing things,
the way players change to change the way they're doing
things in order to stay ahead. And the game uh,
you know, staying uh, you know, as good as it
can be. I mean, it's gotten faster for a while.
College basketball, as you know, had the it was the
slowest game in the world thirty five second shock lock,

(09:11):
and we've gotten that down to thirty. The world didn't
spin off its access. Everything was fine. If we went
to twenty four. Like when these teams go overseas and
play they do great, it would be just fine. And uh,
and so I think I think we need to try
to stay current as best we can. Doesn't mean we
have to change everything be like the NBA. I'm not
suggesting that, but but but we can certainly be more

(09:31):
proactive to to and and and more adaptive, I should say, uh,
in keeping up with the way the games being played.
You know, it's interesting, I've often thought that the NBA
should go to the old college style free throws. And
stick with me on the logic here. So every rule
that the NBA has is because we would all agree.
We we both agree those are the best players in

(09:54):
the entire world. Right, So the three point line is
is further, the lane is wider, although I know FEB
has adopted that lane, you know, and get eight seconds
to get it across the court. You get twenty four seconds,
you know, on the shot clock. They're obviously adapting the
fourteen seconds and the offensive board. In other words, you know,
every every rule is meant for the highest level of competition,
and yet they only have two shot free throws. Once

(10:16):
you get into the bonus, I think like, like, we
really want to keep as you said, and I think
it's a great way of looking at it which I
hadn't thought of, which is like, hey, just because you
like college basketball doesn't mean you can't change some of it.
Think about the changes that many of them have worked
out for the better, including cutting down the clutching and
the grabbing um. But why not go to the one
in one in the NBA? You know, listen, you don't
have to go with five, but if they're truly the

(10:38):
best players, why not put them under as much or
more pressure as we see college players under. Well that's
a that's a fair point, I mean, but sometimes I
look at it from the standpoint of you know, like like, look,
I I don't know every game out there, but but
basketball is the only game I know of where you
can score with no defense. And so when when you

(10:58):
go to the free throw line, oftentimes, when when you
foul someone, if it's a common foul or fouling in
the active shooting um, you know you're not only taking
sometimes you're taking away well, especially in the common foul,
you're taking away your opponent's opportunity to three. And so
they're you know, it's really free throws are are It's

(11:19):
supposed to be a deterrent. So I'm okay with with
sort of the international rule of of you know, five
fouls per quarter, and then you're on the fifth foul,
you have two shots. I'm not sure that when you
foul it should be on the the offense. You know,
there should be a sanction for the defense for foulings.
That makes sense. I mean, you know, I see both

(11:39):
sides of it, and I'm okay with that. If if
we think the one and one is an integral part
of college basketball, I'm cool with it. Um. And if
we want to argue for that for the NBA, that's
fine too. Um. But my thing sometimes winds up, Wait
a minute now. You know, if you foul and you're
you're taking away my opportunity to get to three. And
it's kind of like I always felt like, and this

(12:01):
is getting way off off of what you're asking, and
I apologize. Listen, listen, it's a pod. You can do it.
I guess we had more time. But but so when
you when there's a lane violation and they give they
give the non violating team the if they're shooting, they
give them another free throw, like I don't want another
free throw. I want the ball, like because if they

(12:24):
violated and the miss free throw, if you make it,
you know you you the it counts. But if you
miss it, they took away your opportunity to get um
to get a fair shot at an offensive rebound, which
could lead to a three. So if there's a violation,
the non violating team should get the ball another free throw,

(12:44):
And I remember this is always felt like that should
be part of the deal. And and I don't care
unless there's a foul. If there's any violation on the lane,
if the shot goes in, who cares. The shot should count.
Um if you miss it, then the non violating team
should get the ball. And uh. And I've always I
felt that way, even when I was a player, when

(13:05):
I was playing overseas, when I played pro ball overseas,
I thought the feeble rules were great. They just made
more sense to me than the college rules. And it
doesn't mean they were all better, but most of them were.
And uh. And we've been really for some reason in
college and I've sat on some of these committees. I'm
on the n c Double A's Competition Committee that Jim

(13:25):
Delaney started several years ago as an LC and the
n C double A brought it in house, and and
the people on the committee couldn't be better people. I mean,
they're all well intentioned, they're great, but there is this
kind of undercurrent of, well, we want to be different
from the NBA. I mean, we don't want to do
things like the NBA does it because we're this separate
and distinct thing. And people like us because we're college

(13:47):
and we're different. And I kind of sit there sometimes
and I respect the opinion. I just don't agree with that.
I'm kind of thinking, I don't think people sit at
home going, wait a minute, that rules like the NBA.
That's really offensive to me. I don't think they do that.
You know, when we went to thirty second shot clock
and all this other stuff that NBA has done in
the past. Um, Like, look, I'm fine with if somebody

(14:07):
doesn't want the NBA rule of in the last two minutes.
You know, if you get a rebound called time out,
you can move it to half court. I get that.
If if college doesn't want that, that's fine. Um, but
why we fight quarters I'll never understand. Uh. And the
and the one argument that I hear more often dug
on the quarters thing is well, we don't want to

(14:28):
be like the NBA. And then they have quarters in
high school, they have quarters in women's basketball, they have
quarters in FIBA. You know, we're the only game in
the world that doesn't have quarters, Like, what do we
know that the rest of the world, You know that
we need to clue in the rest of the world
and how dumb they are. Um, we can't really justify
why we have halves. It's just like our tradition and uh,
and we can't really say, well, this is why I

(14:50):
like it. It doesn't make you know, it kind of
doesn't make any sense to me. A lot of things
don't j J. It is a little bit a little
bit of a college thing, which is and and this
is one of the things I strugg go with, is
I you know, I watch and these are there's some
great coaches and I mean this, this is not like
me talking out of both sides of my mouth. Guys
that I think are really really good and uh, you know,

(15:12):
for example, a Tom Iszo, who I believe, you know,
I'm a believer in the college system. I like guys
going to college for a couple of years and understand
learning about who they are, but also learning the game
and learning a system and playing for the team because
you have the rest of your life to play for yourself.
But I will say that, and this isn't just Izoh,
you know Roy Williams. I watched some of the stuff
they do, and it's the exact same offense they ran

(15:34):
when we played against Kansas in the late nineties and
in the two thousand and I kind of think it's
one of the things with college coaches, not all of them,
but a lot of them. They they've had a ton
of success, so they why do we do it this way,
because this is the way we've always done it right.
And it's a little bit of that with the halves.
And I find that's the only disappointing part. I one
of the disappointing parts I find in college basketball was

(15:56):
some of the coaches kind of fear this evolving bass
the ball. Like you said, the international game you watch
some of the style of the NBA is much closer.
It has evolved much closer, like the the whole idea
of ball and player movement, and that's a that's a
European style that we adopted and a little bit of
college style that we've adopted. Um But I I find

(16:16):
that the same thing you're thinking of with with halves
instead of quarters, I find with offensive and defensive systems,
and that guy's struggle to evolve with the game. And
you know, some of these other younger coaches have been
able to use some of the European stuff, some of
the NBA stuffs to great success because they're going against
colleges that still play three big guys, two big guys

(16:38):
in three guards. You know, they still run traditional systems
that they've run because that's what they know best. Yeah,
I agree with that, um. And there are some guys
that have done it a certain way for all these years,
and it's been extraordinarily successful. Like you mentioned Roy Williams
at North Carolina running the same stuff at Kansas, and
but it works, and it works at a really high level.

(16:59):
And and and they played differently than almost almost any
other major conference team where they have two big guys.
They run the same secondary break and more teams are
going with perimeter oriented stuff. UM. So absolutely I get that,
and I'm okay with Like I'm okay with the way
the game is. I just think there are certain ways
we can push you forward. Like I think right before

(17:21):
I came on, I heard you talking a little bit about,
you know, the sort of the idea that you had
conveyed to me that the best players in the world,
you know, the three point line is further back. And
and I've argued in college that we need to push
it back to at least the FEBA distance. And but
it's not because it makes the shot harder. That in
in my view, and what I have seen sort of

(17:43):
in my experience, has been the further the three point
line out is further it's pushed out, the better the
spacing for offenses, and and everybody's going to run their
offense to that line. And oftentimes I've heard coaches and
and and you may have heard exactly the same thing.
I We run in the same circles that you know.

(18:04):
Coaches will say, hey, when we go when we play
in a bigger arena, we're practicing in an NBA facility,
our offense runs better because we're we're spaced out to
the NBA three point line and so we have more
room to cut, more room to drive and all that stuff.
And so I've argued for the three point line in
these these committee meetings to be moved back. Not because
I think there should be more risk reward to the shot, uh,

(18:27):
and the shot should be more difficult. Um, it's because
I think it improves the spacing and it makes it
the better the spacing, it's easier to officiate. And uh,
and you know, the clutching and grabbing we're talking about
is a lot easier to deal with. Like when you
know you probably you know you're your fair clip younger
than I am. So you probably played with a three

(18:49):
point line at high school, right, Yeah, See, I didn't
play in college. I didn't play with a three point
line at all. You never played with that came into
college basketball the year after I graduated, and you wouldn't
believe how congested things were back then. Everybody packed it
in uh and made you prove it over the top

(19:11):
because it was a two point shot. And and so
when people say, well, the depth of the mid rain shot,
you know, there's no mid range game, and why would
you take a mid rain shot? Now? Back then that
was a good shot. But it's not a good shot anymore.
It's not a valuable shot. You still want able to
hit it, I don't know, you know, it's I'm sure
it's like bunting in baseball. You still want to be
able to do it, but you're not doing it as

(19:31):
often as you used to. And uh, and that's just
sort of the way the game's changed. And I don't
think the game's worse now than it used to be.
I think it's way more exciting. I think the players
are way more skilled now. Uh, they're generally, they're better
they've ever been athletically, skill wise, nutrition, everything, They're longer,
they're more, it's totally better. It doesn't mean that Michael

(19:53):
Jordan wouldn't be the best player now or Ralph Sampson
wouldn't be the best. Maybe they would, But but the
average player now is way better than the average player
was twenty thirty years ago. Let's let's work our way
back in time. You grew up in southern California in
Rolling Hills. Um were you always just a basketball player? Volleyball?
Or you football? I mean, obviously you're you're tremending like

(20:16):
for people who don't remember you as a player, you
were a very good athlete. Um, so was it was
it always just all ball? I played baseball growing up
in addition to basketball. Um, you know, I grew up
in I was born in nineteen three, so my my
formative beers were in the seventies, and so you played
back then, you played the sport that was in season.

(20:38):
And so my dad wouldn't let me play football. His
thing was, you can play football when you get to
high school. And he told me later on his thinking
was that that if if he could keep me away
from football when I was a kid, I probably wouldn't
want to play when I got to high school. Like
my dad thought, football was was a headbangers game and
it was just going to lead to injury and and

(21:00):
all that stuff. And so I played basketball and baseball
and I loved them both. But when I got to
high school after my sophomore year, I played baseball into
my sophomore year and uh. And then even back then,
coaches were pretty territorial, and so I had to choose
and uh, and so I basically quit quit baseball just
to play basketball. And you know, I was six six

(21:21):
seven once I got to high school, so it was
pretty clear like basketball was probably what I was going
to be better at and have a better opportunity to
playing college or maybe after that, so I gravitated towards
basketball and that's pretty much all I did after after
my software year in high school. All right, So, but
but your dad was he was a repairman right here.
He wasn't. It's it's really interesting. Our our backgrounds are

(21:44):
similar in southern California. Are similar in that I did
actually play football growing up, but you did play the
sport in season. But they're dissimilar in that your dad
wasn't a basketball guy. How did he How what was
he like as a parent in terms of you as
a growing athlete. Yeah, my dad um was born in
the United States. He was born in San Pedro, where

(22:04):
I was born in southern California, near Long Beach in
the Port of Los Angeles. And uh, he worked when
he was a kid. So he was a commercial fisherman
when he was young. And then uh and then later
on after he got out of that, he went to
technical school and he got into TV sales and service.
He was basically like a TV repair He had a
TV repair shop and uh and sold TVs out of there.

(22:27):
Back when you know, like when I was a kid,
TVs were furniture. Uh, you know, these big consoles that
at a turntable in it and all that stuff. And
so when your TV went on the fritz, like my
dad got called and he went on a house call
and if he couldn't fix it right there, he took
it with him and back to the shop. And you know,
now your TV breaks, you throw it away. Um, But

(22:48):
back then, you know, you can make a significant amount
of money fixing those things. He made all his money
really not on sales but of new TVs, but on
on service, on airing things, repairing TV sets and all
that stuff. So he did that and then, uh, and
then got out of it when I was, you know,
just getting out of high school. But um, you know

(23:09):
it was I grew up in a very nice area. Really,
it was very nice area. It wasn't as as sort
of big money as it is now. It's become one
of the wealthy zip goes in the in the country now,
But back then there were a lot of a lot
of people like my family that were middle class that
you know, did well and everything. I never wanted for anything,
but you know, I had to. I came up the

(23:31):
same way most people did. I mean I walked to
school every day and all that stuff. Um, but I didn't.
My my dad never wanted me to work when I
was a kid, Like I had to do stuff around
the house and all that the yard work and all
that stuff. But like he would not let me get
a job. And my mom wanted me to work. She
thought that you know, a kid my age and you
know high school, all that, you get a job. And

(23:54):
my dad, I remember, my dad is really the only
time I remember my parents kind of arguing, um, and
his was his job is to go to school and
play ball. If he screws that up, then we'll make
him work. But what what good is bagging groceries going
to be for him? And so I always like, I thought,
Dad's awesome, man, he's keeping me from having to get
a job. But I never I never worked in that regard.

(24:17):
I just worked at what I what he thought I
was supposed to do, which and I had to work
for him during the summertimes, especially when I was in college.
I did construction work during the summer for him. So
that was really the only job I ever had before
I you know, I got to college and worked during
the summertimes, like in the broadcast industry or something like that.
I never I never really had a real job until that. Okay,

(24:40):
so let's let's again keep it with with high school
and throwing up like did you go to do you
go to five Star? Did you go over the go
over the camps back then? Because mine was um there
was a camp at was camp in Santa Barbara West
actually at Westmont College called Snow Valley that I went
to religiously, I think from the time I was like
eight to like fourteen or fifteen, and then there was

(25:02):
Superstar Camp and Center Barbara went too, and then the
Pumps got involved right around I was thirteen or fourteen,
and that's when it was West Coast All Star and
then obviously a b C D which is kind of
a breakoff of the old Nike Princeton abc D camp.
Did you did you go to basketball camp? Like? What
was what was your what was your summer? Who? Like, Yeah,
when I was growing up, UM, I played on they

(25:23):
called it a conference team. So rather than like in
southern California, they didn't have school teams, so you didn't
play for like your your intermediate school. They had a
team that played other intermediate schools. You know, you played
for your local local team. So we played we played
probably fifty games a year, traveling all around southern California.
And I promise you I played in Tustin in your gym,

(25:43):
and San Clementi. I played in every high school in
southern California at one point or another between fourth and
eighth grade. And then when I got to high school.
I never went to basketball camp as a kid. So
when I when I got to high school and was
started being considered a pretty decent player, I got I
did you mentioned I got invited to It's called the
Sports World Superstar Camp. But when I was when I

(26:06):
was playing, it was in Point Loma, near San Diego,
so south of ware you and I grew up and uh,
and so that was my first experience at a recruiting camp.
And I got invited to some camps in the East,
but I didn't feel like, well, you know, I want
to make my dad pay for me to get out there.
You know, I didn't understand how all that worked. So
to me, the Superstar Camp was plenty. So I went

(26:28):
to that twice and that was the only basketball camp
I ever went to. UM and then I played. I
played a little bit of of a U ball. I
played for the South Coast, which was coached by Gary McKnight. Um,
it was now a modern days at a Hall of
Fame career, modern day. And so I played for a
couple of years, a couple of summers and uh and

(26:51):
then play you know. So we would play in the
bc I tournaments in in Provo, Utah, in Las Vegas, UM.
But I didn't play a ton of back then. There
weren't as many a U teams. We played with our
high school team in summer. Uh, so we played in
the Long Beach City College Summer League and you know,
stuff like that. We we played a lot of that stuff.
And then I played I played in Heck, I played

(27:13):
in gold Rich Goldberg's American Round what they called the
ARC League, the American Roundball Corporation that played for Washington
and started Slamm and Jam and Long Beach played in that.
So I played a ton of basketball around southern California.
But it wasn't quite as I mean, it was organized,
but it wasn't like now with the pumps and all
that stuff where where it's it's it's a business now.

(27:36):
It was a little more um sort of startup type
stuff back then, and it was fun, like you know,
it seemed like during the summer, I played in one
in either Long Beach City College or cal State l A.
I played for the US Olympic Development League every summer. Um.
I played pretty much every night somewhere and uh, and

(27:59):
it was fun. Um it seems a little more like
when my kid was going through the AU thing uh
and playing every weekend. Um, it was a little more professional,
if that makes sense. Um. And it was a little
more I don't know the right word for it. Um
it was packaged. The kids still had a really good

(28:19):
time and there was a ton of value to it.
But but it was it was a little grittier when
when I played and uh, and I loved every minute
of it because my you know, my parents didn't go. Now,
if you don't go to if you're a parent, you
don't go to your kids games, you're like a bad parent.
My parents didn't go to all my games. It was
my thing. They came sometimes, and when they came, it

(28:40):
was great. But if they weren't there, like, it didn't
bother me. I I wanted to play. And so it
was a different time. So so that so the drive
to be great just came from within or was it?
Was it something that was your was your dad? Somebody
who pushed you? Was your mom? Who pushed you? Like,
where did you don't become as driven as you are?
And you were, you were driven academically, as scholastically as

(29:03):
well as as in basketball. If not, I would I
would think. And this is more maybe a parenting question.
Obviously you raising kids, you know, one that's you graduated
and the other one that's about to graduate. Um, but
but where did where did your personal drive come from within?
Or was it one of your folks? Well, my dad
never pushed me. My parents never pushed me. My mom

(29:23):
would say stuff to me basically to get me to
shut up, like if I was complaining, And because my
mom didn't know anything about sports and didn't much care
about it, she just kind of wanted to. She wanted
us to do well and have fun and to behave ourselves.
So as long as if I went to a game,
as long as I behaved myself, my mom was happy
with it. But you know, she she said some things

(29:46):
to me that that that we're very affecting. Like there
was one time, like I I came home from some
event and I thought, you know, I had been the
leading scorer and then all that stuff, and and I
thought I should have been the m v P of
this tournament I played in. And I had made some
some statement about well, I'm you know, I'm just not
getting the ball enough. And my mom looked at me

(30:06):
and said, you're a big boy. If you want the ball,
go get it. And I was like, here's this little
lady telling me, you know it doesn't know anything about sports,
telling me if I want the ball, go get it,
I better go get it and uh. And my dad
would say the same kind of thing if if I complained,
like he never said, hey man, you didn't do this,
you need to do this better. He wasn't built like that.
He didn't care about that, you know, so he wanted

(30:28):
me to I'm sure he wanted me to do well
and all that stuff and had the expectations, but he
never really voiced them. Um, but he would he would
basically say, like if I would, you know, that was
kind of the big guy's lament is you know, they
don't throw the ball inside. And my dad would go, look,
I've been watching these games. Your teammates missed a lot
of shots. Why don't you go get the rebound? And

(30:50):
and you can get the ball anytime you want to
go get it. And so I remember, I remember that,
but they never pushed me. What what for me? What
was what was kind motivating was I have an older
brother who's seven years older than I am, and he
was a kick ass good athlete grown up, like he
did everything, and he was a he's a great golfer,
he's a really good he's a great baseball player. Uh,

(31:14):
good basketball player. But he's smaller, you know, smaller than me.
He's only he's only like six too. And uh, and
so he had when we roomed together growing up, and
he had no joke. He had like a hundred and
twenty five trophies in our room. Every time he went somewhere,
he won. And and so like my parents, friends would
come over to the house, you know, they've given the

(31:35):
Nickel tour something. They would always stop in my brother's
in our room and they would marvel at how many
trophies my brother had won. His name's Dave, and and
just a stud and he's my idol grown up. And
that motivated me more than anything. Was I wanted to
do things well so that I could try to match him.
And uh and finally, like when I was like a

(31:57):
senior in high school or something. I finally got as
many trophies as he did, and it was like a
huge day for me when I matched it and uh,
and that was more motivating to me than, uh than having,
you know, my parents say, hey, you got to do that.
My parents. The only thing that my mom ever really
got on me about with school. Um, she expected me

(32:17):
to take care of my school work because she, like
my parents, had a very healthy fear of my failure.
So that the thing was like, look, people are saying
you're good at basketball, but you better do your homework because, uh,
you know, you might not be as good as you think.
And that was sort of the that was sort of
the lamit or the mantra in our house was college

(32:38):
your choice. You've got to be able to eat. Your
grades have to be good enough so that you can
get into the college your choice. And once I got
good at basketball, I was I was pretty sure I
could go where I wanted. So I didn't do my
homework quite as fervently as I did before. I know
that I know that you were part of Duke that
was the number one recruiting class in the country, and
it was just It was an amazing list of Allery

(32:59):
and Dawkins and and Dave Henderson. And you're part of
what UH kind of set in place, Uh, this path
to an incredible legacy. The coach k is is UH
is going to leave behind at Duke. But you grew
up in southern California, and I know U c l
A wasn't at its peak, but you grew up in
the seventies in Los Angeles. Was Larry Farmer was the

(33:20):
head coach. I believe right it was it was Larry Brown.
And the Larry Farmer did he not offer you? Were
they late to the party? Why? Why was in U
c l A considered especially you know, growing up there
and being a good student. When I was a sophomore
in high school, Larry Brown was the head coach at
u c l A. And he'd gone to the final
four in like nineteen eighty my my sophomore year, and uh,

(33:41):
and they lost to Louisville. And he had expressed interest
in me um as a player, and you know, like
you're saying, you know, you grew up in the shadow
of U c l A. That was sort of a
goal that you had as a player, Like someday i'd
like to play at u c l A. And and
I had a lot of guys that I had played
against it had gone there. And so when when Larry

(34:02):
Brown left and went to the San Antonio Spurt, no,
the New Jersey Nets I think it was UM and
went into the n b A, uh U c l
A hired Larry Farmer who had played you know, played
there in won national championships with Walden and all that.
UM and and they recruited a guy who was in
my class name Carrie Bogny, who who ultimately wound up

(34:22):
going to Kansas. So he had committed to u c
l A. And they thought they had their big guy,
so they kind of didn't didn't really um didn't really
show the same kind of interest that I was getting
from seemingly everywhere else and uh and so uh, you know,
that was a little bit disappointing. So I kind of said,
all right, well, you know, if if that's not if
that's not of interest to you, then I'm going in

(34:44):
this other direction. So when Kerry Bogni kind of turned
tail and went to Kansas, UM I didn't have a
whole lot of interest in U c l A. When
when they thought, well, maybe we should turn in this direction,
and my dad made sure that that that wasn't gonna
happen because I already made my mind up. I was
going to duke and he was not. He was not
about to have something. So I I have no idea

(35:06):
whether I got every phone call because my parents had
had said, wait, wait a minute, you know this is
over and uh. And I know some places that called
because there was only one signing period back then, it
was in April, and I knew places that called that
had had coaching changes and and you know I didn't
find out about some of them until afterwards. Well, but

(35:26):
Coach K wasn't Coach K then, So what what was
it that appealed to you about Coach K that you know,
made you get on a plane and want to fly
all the way across the country and play a duke
which which is a place where, if anybody's ever been
there and knowing, beautiful and completely different than southern California,
but it's also mostly uh, mostly populated by kids from

(35:47):
the northeast. What was it about duke and Coach K?
It was all Coach K that, um, you know, when
I was in high school, I had a little bit
of a difficult experience with sort of the coach there. Um.
You know, I'm really tight with all my teammates and
we had a great experience with each other, but it
wasn't a great experience with our coach. And I had
in my four years of high school there were three

(36:09):
different head coaches of the varsity when I was there,
and the last the last person that had it. It
wasn't a pleasant experience. And and so I only were
I figured out at least that my choice of college
UM was going to be the only time in my
basketball life probably that I was going to be able

(36:31):
to choose who I played for. So the coach was
the most important thing to me, and uh, and it
really wound up dictating my final schools. UM. It was
less about the schools and more about the coaches. And
like oddly enough, so the four schools I came down
to at the end were UM where Duke where coach

(36:52):
k was, Syracuse where Jim Beheid was, um Iowa where
lud Olsen was, and then Kansas where named Ted Owens
was at the time. And so those were the four
four coaches I was most interested in playing for. And
you know, three of them are now in the Basketball
Hall of Fame, which is is kind of weird, but um,

(37:12):
Coach K was the least accomplished of the four. UM
had not. You know, this kind of sounds odd, but
it's true. My first n C double A tournament game
was Coach K's first, and he'd never been there before.
And and you know, my first a CC champion was
his first. My first final for his first. And so

(37:33):
it was kind of a weird, weird issue that he
was the least accomplished, but he was the guy I
trusted the most and he never lied to me. Um,
when I was being recruited, there was I don't know,
I don't know. You were from a little further south
than Orange County, but there was a restaurant in my
area called the Red Onion and it was this Mexican joint,

(37:54):
you know. And so when Coach K visited me in
my high school, we could go I could go off
campus or lunch. So we went to this this little
Mexican place. I mean, this is like and so you know,
you go for a for a to the Mexican joint
and have lunch. I mean it might be four bucks
for me and four bucks for you, So the bill

(38:14):
was probably ten bucks for the two of us. And
and I mean, you know, I don't know if if
this happened to you, dog, but you know, back then
it wasn't that people didn't respect the rules, but there
was nobody else. I went to lunch with where I
had to pay, and and Coach K split the bill
with me, and he said, look, this is stupid, but

(38:35):
I we have to. Yeah, we have to pay for
our own. And I was like, all right, this dude
is legit. Man, He's not gonna Everything he says is
right down the middle. And I was being recruited by
other other schools would negatively recruit against Duke by saying, hey,
you know, if you go to Duke, you're going to
play center there for four years. And I was like, nah,

(38:56):
he wouldn't you know, that wouldn't happen. And I wound
up it became such an issue. I wand up ask
him about it, and I said, you know, everybody's saying
that you're gonna make me play center. Uh if I
come to Duke and he goes well for a year, yeah,
like you know, we don't have anybody to play it
like you could so for a year. Yeah, but I'll
recruited another big guy and you can move back to

(39:17):
your natural position. And he did. Um, it's just the
big guys weren't quite what he expected. And I never
got to move out of there. But but he never
lied to me and told me right away like for
a year, yeah, you're gonna have to do it and
uh and and I respected that, and I really liked
him and uh and I trusted him from the get go.

(39:38):
Um And it was different back then. He was he
was younger. Uh, he was was very, very energetic. He
still is that. Uh. And he was man, if you
made a mistake, you heard about it right away and
there was no mistaking um kind of where you stood
overall and at that moment. And uh and it was

(39:59):
not is pleasant on that end, but it was but
you knew you were getting the absolute truth. And and
that really appealed to me. But why didn't your sister
go to U c l A. She did? My sister
was My sister was a great volleyball player. So she
she was a freshman when I was a senior. And
so you know, me being in the east, you know,

(40:20):
he couldn't get back like now there's no Internet or
all that. So I never really saw my sister play
high school volleyball. And then when I watched her play
when when she got to college U c l A.
And I came back for Christmas my senior year and
watched her play at U c l A. I was
blown away by how good she was and by how
good her team was. But yeah, she she she played
volleyball at U c l A. And was you know,
Phi Beta Kappa students. My sister turns out her name

(40:43):
is Cheryl. She she still lives in Newport Beach. She
was the best athlete in our family. She was the
best at everything. She's the best student, best athlete. Is ridiculous,
how how talented she was and is. And I always
kind of thought it was me and my brother, and
then I found out later on. I was like, no,
we're we're are pulling up the caboose on this train.
And she's the number one, number one athlete in our family. Yeah,

(41:04):
and she wasn't the high school coach killer that you were.
And that's really that's really the legacy, the legacy you
leave behind. So you get you get to Durham, and
I remember it's interesting. You talked about being honest, and
that's one of the reasons I chose Notre Dame was
John McCloud was was honest, whereas I felt like it
wasn't that Jim Herrick wasn't honest. Uh he was. You know,
they had taken a commitment from a kid name illusion

(41:25):
me man who was a year behind me, and they
were still recruiting Stephon Marbury and and I'd say, like, listen, coach,
you got Cameron Dollar there and I'd be a freshman.
He's a junior, you know, would would you promise me
to not to recruit over me? What Dougie? Five guys?
We we played the best five guys at U c
l A. Whereas John McLoud gave me his word that
I'd started as a freshman and I did, and you
wouldn't recruit over me and he didn't. Um. But I

(41:46):
remember getting to Notre Dame and again, different part of
the country than than Durham. I think both are beautiful campuses,
all of the weather, far better than North Carolina. And
even though I had traveled a lot with basketball and
a lot with my family having family in the East Coast,
I was incredibly homesick. Did you go through that a
little bit? Um? Mine was more the culture, the culture

(42:08):
change that uh, you know back then, like right now
I live in North Carolina now, um in Charlotte, North Carolina,
and uh, like chick fil As closed on Sunday. Well,
when I was in college, everything was closed on Sunday
and uh, and so it was it was just a
different world. Is the Bible Belt. Um. And you had

(42:28):
mentioned sort of the makeup of the college campus, um,
and that that may have been exactly right as far
as you know, a lot of people from the northeast
and all that, as far as the student body was concerned.
But you walked off campus and you were in the South.
And so that was a huge culture change for me.
And uh. And even though like you're right that the
weather in Durham, North Carolina is a lot better than

(42:48):
it is in South Bend, Indiana, but I was still
freezing my my tailoft during the wintertime relative to what
southern California was. Like I'm still I'm fifty four years
old now and I am still not used to the
weather in the East, even where I live, um in

(43:09):
which is a mild climate in in North Carolina. It's
hotter than blazes during the summer, and I still get
chili during the wintertime. And you know, I didn't own
a coat when I grew up in southern California. I
had a sweatshirt and a windbreaker, but I didn't have
a coat. And I won when I went back east

(43:29):
and and UH and so I there was definitely I
wasn't homesick as much as I was. This isn't what
I'm used to like, I know, So I was an
adjustment period. And then the basketball part was a huge
adjustment because you were going from UH, You're going into
you know, arguably the best league in the country back then.
Like my first a c C game, I had to

(43:51):
guard Ralph Sampson. It wasn't much of a contest. And
Michael Jordan was at UH at North Carolina and Sam
Perkins and all that. So the and NC State won
the national championship my freshman year out of our league,
and I think they finished fifth in the in an
eight team league and won the national championship. It was
it was a tough way to be sort of welcomed

(44:12):
into college basketball playing that league with all freshmen. Yeah, no,
listen up, my mind we were young and we finished.
I was like I was back when the Big East
expanded and Syracuse finished fourth in the league and lost
the National Championship game to Kentucky. You know that was
Yukon had Ray Allen and Nova had Carry Kittles and
Georgetown was two in the country and they had they

(44:34):
had Allen Iverson. So I so, okay, let's let's start
with Ralph Sampson, three time Player of the Year. Um,
some of it was injuries, but some of it was
his game didn't translate to the NBA. You played against
him when he was at his absolute peak? What was it?
What was Ralph Sampson? Like Ralph was seven four? He
was an incredibly graceful athlete that if he were six

(44:57):
seven would have been a great player because he could
shoot it. Um, he had great hands, he could really run, uh,
super athletic um. And you know, not the not the
you know sort of argue. But I actually think that
his game did translate to the NBA. That he was
a guy every year that he was healthy, and it

(45:18):
was m v P the All Star Game in eighty
five and and played you know in in Elijuan. Were
the Twin Towers there with the with the Rockets. But
I remember seeing him play. I was playing overseas, I think,
and I came back it was probably like nineteen I
came back here and after my season was over, and

(45:38):
I happened to be in Houston. He was playing for
the for the Sacramento Kings at the time, and his
knees were shot and he couldn't run anymore relative to
what he could do before. And I remember I remember going, God,
that's it was. It was like really sad to see
a player that was so great being diminished in that way.

(45:58):
And you know, he's an in the Nasmith Basketball Hall
of Fame, and I think rightfully so. But I think
a lot of people who looked back on that time
remember him as a diminished player when his first five
years in the league, maybe maybe a little bit longer,
he was unbelievably good and played played incredibly like all

(46:19):
star caliber. Well um, but but his body broke down
and that was that was sort of the difference. But
but he was like two or three time National Player
of the Year in college. Nobody could deal with him.
Nobody could was he was. The three point line would
have helped him because it would have gain the more
space to operate because he got triple teamed every time

(46:40):
he touched it. I know that, I know that you
were part of Duke. There was the number one recruiting
class in the country, and it was just it was
an amazing list of Allery and Dawkins and Dave Henderson.
And you're part of what UH kind of set in place.
Uh this path to an incredible legacy that coach k
is is. Uh he is going to leave behind at Uke.
But you did grew up in southern California, and I

(47:02):
know U c l A wasn't at its peak, but
you grew up in the seventies in Los Angeles. Was
Larry Farmer was the head coach. I believe right it
was Larry Brown. And the Larry Farmer did he not
offer you? Were they late to the party? Why? Why
was in u c l A considered especially you know,
growing up there and being a good student. When I
was a sophomore in high school, Larry Brown was the

(47:24):
head coach at U c l A. And he'd gone
to the final four in like nineteen eighty my my
sophomore year, and uh, and they lost to Louisville and
he had expressed interest in me um as a player,
and you know, like you're saying, you know, you grew
up in the shadow of u c l A. That
was sort of a goal that you had as a player,
like someday I'd like to play at u c l A.

(47:45):
And and I had a lot of guys that I
had played against it had gone there. And so when
when Larry Brown left and went to the San Antonio Spurt, no,
the New Jersey Nuts I think it was UM and
went into the NBA, uh U c l A hired
Erry Farmer who had played you played there in won
national championships with Walden and all that. UM and and

(48:06):
they recruited a guy who was in my class name
Carrie Bogny, who who ultimately wound up going to Kansas,
So he had committed to u c l A. And
they thought they had their big guy. So they kind
of didn't didn't really um didn't really show the same
kind of interest that I was getting from seemingly everywhere
else and uh and so uh, you know, that was

(48:27):
a little bit disappointing. So I kind of said, all right, well,
you know, if if that's not if that's not of
interest to you, then I'm going in this other direction.
So when Carrie Bogni kind of turned tail and went
to Kansas, um, I didn't have a whole lot of
interest in U c l A. When when they thought, well,
maybe we should turn in this direction, and my dad
made sure that that that wasn't gonna happen, because I'd

(48:48):
already made my mind up. I was going to Duke
and he was not. He was not about to to
have something socited. I have no idea whether I got
every phone call, because my parents had had said, wait,
wait a minute, you know this is over and uh.
And I know some places that called because there was
only one signing period back then, it was in April,
and I knew places had called that had had coaching changes,

(49:10):
and and you know I didn't find out about some
of them until afterwards. Well, but coach K wasn't coach
K then, So what what was it that appealed to
you about Coach K that you know made you get
on a plane and want to fly all the way
across the country and play a duke, which which is
a place where if anybody's ever been there, and now
like beautiful and completely different than southern California, but it's

(49:32):
also mostly UH, mostly populated by kids from the Northeast.
What was it about Duke and Coach K? It was
all Coach K that Um. You know, when I was
in high school, I had a little bit of a
difficult experience with sort of the coach there. Um. You know,
I'm really tight with all my teammates and we had
a great experience with each other, but it wasn't a

(49:53):
great experience with our coach. And I had my four
years of high school. There were three different head coaches
of the varsity when I was there, and the last
the last person that had it. It wasn't a pleasant experience.
And so I only were I figured out at least
that my choice of college UM was going to be

(50:17):
the only time in my basketball life probably that I
was going to be able to choose who I played for.
So the coach was the most important thing to me
and UH, and it really wound up dictating my final schools. UM.
It was less about the schools and more about the coaches.
And like oddly enough, so the four schools I came

(50:37):
down to at the end were UM where Duke where
Coach K was, Syracuse where Jim Beheid was um Iowa
where lud Olsen was, and then Kansas where a guy
named Ted Owens was at the time. And so those
were the four four coaches I was most interested in
playing for, and you know, three of them are now

(50:57):
in the Basketball Hall of Fame, which is a weird,
but um, Coach K was the least accomplished of the four.
UM had not. You know, this kind of sounds odd,
but it's true. My first n C double A tournament
game was Coach K's first, and he'd never been there before.
And and you know, my first a c C champion

(51:18):
was his first. My first final was his first. And
so it was kind of a weird, weird issue that
he was the least accomplished, but he was the guy
trusted the most and he never lied to me. Um.
When I was being recruited, there was a I don't know,
I don't know you were from a little further south
than Orange County, but there was a restaurant in my

(51:39):
area called the Red Onion, and it was this Mexican joint,
you know, And so when Coach K visited me in
my high school, we could go, I could go off
campus for lunch, so we went to this this little
Mexican place. I mean, this is like and so you know,
you go for a for a to the Mexican joint
and have lunch. I mean it might be four bucks

(52:00):
for me and four bucks for you. So the bill
was probably ten bucks for the two of us. And
and I mean, you know, I don't know if if
this happened to you, dog, but you know, back then,
it wasn't that people didn't respect the rules, but there
was nobody else. I went to lunch with where I
had to pay, and and Coach K split the bill

(52:21):
with me, and he said, look, this is stupid, but
I I we have to. Yeah, we have to pay
for our own. And I was like, all right, this
dude is legit, man, He's not going to Everything he
says is right down the middle. And I was being
recruited by other other schools would negatively recruit against Duke
by saying, hey, you know, if you go to Duke,

(52:42):
you're going to play center there for four years. And
I was like, nah, he wouldn't you know, that wouldn't happen.
And I wound up it became such an issue. I
wound up ask him about it and I said, you know,
everybody's saying that you're going to make me play center
if I come to Duke and he goes, well, for
a year, yeah, like you know, we don't have anybody
to play it like you could so for a year, yeah,

(53:03):
but I'll recruited another big guy and you can move
back to your natural position. And he did. Um, it's
just the big guys weren't quite what he expected. And
I never got to move out of there. But but
he never lied to me and told me right away
like for a year, yeah, you're gonna have to do
it and uh and and I respected that and I
really liked him and uh and I trusted him from

(53:25):
the get go. Um, and it was different back then.
He was he was younger. Uh, he was was very
very energetic. He still is that. Uh And he was man,
if you made a mistake, you heard about it right
away and there was no mistaking um kind of where
you stood overall and at that moment. And uh and

(53:48):
it wasn't always pleasant on that end, but it was,
but you knew you were getting the absolute truth and
and that really appealed to me. But when didn't your
sister go us she did my sister was. My sister
was a great volleyball player. So she she was a
freshman when I was a senior, and so, you know,
me being in the East, you know, he couldn't get

(54:09):
back like now, there's no internet or all that. So
I never really saw my sister play high school volleyball.
And then when I watched her play when when she
got to college U c l A. And I came
back for Christmas my senior year and watched her play
at U c l A. I was blown away by
how good she was and by how good her team was.
But yeah, she she she played volleyball at U c
l A. And was you know, Phi Beta kappas students.

(54:30):
My sister turns out her name is Cheryl. She she
still lives in Newport Beach. She was the best athlete
in our family. She was the best at everything. She's
the best student, best athlete. Is ridiculous, how how talented
she was and is. And I always kind of thought
it was me and my brother, and then I found
out later on. I was like, no, we're we're pulling
up the caboose on this train. And she's the number one,

(54:51):
number one athlete in our family. Yeah, and she wasn't
the high school coach killer that you were. And that's
really that's really the legacy you leave behind. So you
get get to Durham and I remember, it's interesting you
talked about being honest, and that's one of the reasons
I chose Notre Dame was John McCleod was was honest,
whereas I felt like it wasn't that Jim Herrick wasn't honest.
Uh he was. You know, they had taken a commitment

(55:13):
from a kid name illusion me Man who was a
year behind me, and they were still recruiting Stephon Marbury
and and I'd say, like, listen, coach, you got Cameron
Dollar there and I'd be a freshman. He's a junior.
You know, would you promise me to not to recruit
over me? What Dougie? Five guys? We we played the
best five guys at U c l A. Whereas John
McLoud gave me his word that i'd started as a
freshman and I did and you wouldn't recruit over me

(55:33):
and he didn't. Um. But I remember getting to Notre
Dame and again, different part of the country than than Durham.
I think both are beautiful campuses. All of the weather
far better than North Carolina. And even though I had
traveled a lot with basketball and a lot with my family,
having family in the East Coast, I was incredibly homesick.
Did you go through that little bit? Um? Mine was

(55:55):
more the culture the culture change that uh, you know
back then, like right now I live in North Carolina now,
um in Charlotte, North Carolina, and uh, like chick fil
As closed on Sunday. Well, when I was in college,
everything was closed on Sunday and uh, and so it
was it was just a different world. Is the Bible Belt? Um?

(56:16):
And you had mentioned sort of the makeup of the
college campus, um, and that that may have been exactly
right as far as you know, a lot of people
from the Northeast and all that as far as the
student body was concerned. But you walked off campus and
you were in the South. And so that was a
huge culture change for me. And And even though like
you're right that the weather in Durham, North Carolina is

(56:37):
a lot better than it is in South Bend, Indiana,
but I was still freezing my my tail off during
the wintertime relative to what southern California was. Like I'm
still I'm fifty four years old now, and I am
still not used to the weather in the East, even
where I live, um And, which is a mild climate,

(56:59):
you know, in in in North Carolina, it's hotter than
blazes during the summer. And I still get chili during
the wintertime. And you know, I didn't own a coat
when I grew up in southern California. I had a
sweatshirt and a windbreaker, but I didn't have a coat.
And I won when I went back east and and UH,

(57:19):
and so I there was definitely I wasn't homesick as
much as I was. This isn't what I'm used to
like I you know, So I was an adjustment period.
And then the basketball part was a huge adjustment because
you were going from UH, You're going into you know,
arguably the best league in the country back then. Like
my first a c C game, I had to guard

(57:40):
Ralph Sampson. It wasn't much of a contest, and Michael
Jordan was at UH at North Carolina and Sam Perkins
and all that. So the the NC State won the
national championship my freshman year out of our league, and
I think they finished fifth in an eight team league.
And won the national championship. It was it was a
tough way to be sort of welcomed into college basketball,

(58:02):
playing that league with all freshmen. Yeah, no, listen up,
my mind. We were young and we finished. I was
like I was back when the Big East expanded and
Syracuse finished fourth in the league and lost the national
championship game to Kentucky. You know that was Yukon had
Ray Allen and Nova had Carrie Kittles, and Georgetown was
two in the country and they had they had Allen Iverson.

(58:24):
So I so, okay, let's let's start with Ralph Sampson,
three time Player of the Year. Um. Some of it
was injuries, but some of it was his game didn't
translate to the NBA. You played against him when he
was at his absolute peak? What was it? What was
Ralph Sampson? Like, Ralph was seven four? He was an
incredibly graceful athlete that if he were six seven would

(58:47):
have been a great player because he could shoot it. Um,
he had great hands, he could really run, uh, super
athletic um and you know, not the not the you
know sort of argue, but it I actually think that
his game did translate to the NBA. That he was
a guy every year that he was healthy and was

(59:07):
m v P of the All Star Game in eighty
five and and played. You know, he in Eli Juan
were the twin towers there with the with the rockets.
But I remember seeing him play. I was playing overseas,
I think, and I came back it was probably like nine.
I came back during the after my season was over,

(59:27):
and I happened to be in Houston. He was playing
for the for the Sacramento Kings at the time, and
his knees were shot and he couldn't run anymore relative
to what he could do before. And I remember I
remember going, God, that's it was. It was like really
sad to see a player that was so great being
diminished in that way. And you know, he's now in

(59:49):
the Nasmith Basketball Hall of Fame, and I think rightfully so.
But I think a lot of people who looked back
on that time remember him as a diminished player. When
his first five years in the league, maybe maybe a
little bit longer, he was unbelievably good and played played
incredibly with like All Star caliber well um, but but

(01:00:11):
his body broke down and that was that was sort
of the difference. But but he was like two or
three time National Player of the Year in college. Nobody
could deal with him. Nobody could what was he was?
Three point line would have helped him because it would
have given him more space to operate because he got
triple teamed every time he touched it. All right, that's

(01:00:33):
part one of my interview with ESPN College basketball savant
analyst j billis Um. Coming up in part two, I'm
gonna ask Jay about replacing Mike Sachowski. I'm gonna give
them a list of all the potentials that Jeff Capel's,
the Quinn Snyder's of the world, Steve Wojahowski, Chris Collins like,

(01:00:53):
I'll give him every possible named Johnny Dawkins, Tommy Amaker,
who's the right Mike Bray, who's the right guy to
replace coach k You'll find out in part two of
my conversation with j billis So that's it for this
episode of All Ball. Make sure you subscribe, you download,
you rate us. Listen to The Doug Gottlieb Show live

(01:01:14):
on Fox Sports Radio daily three to six Eastern time,
twelve to three Pacific in Stay tuned. Next week, we'll
have a great recap of the first couple of weeks
of the open recruiting period, and we think, now that
the dust is settled, will begin to take a look
at all that has changed in the NBA rosters. Keep listening,
we appreciate it. I'm Doug Gotlin. This is all ball