May 19, 2020 • 42 mins
Doug discusses the NFL putting a hold on giving teams incentives to hire head coaches and general managers of color and why the league got this decision right. He also tells you why it’s time to stop criticizing Michael Jordan for being “mean”. Plus, 2-time Super Bowl champion Phil Simms joined the show to tell Doug what to expect from Tom Brady with Buccaneers and if the Packers made the right choice by drafting QB Jordan Love.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlip
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
from three to six pm Eastern Time that's twelve to
three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your local station
for the Doug Gottlip Show at Fox Sports Radio dot com,
or stream us live every day on the I Heart
Radio app by searching fs R. This is the best
(00:22):
of the Doug got Leave Show on Fox Sports Radio.
The NFL tabled tabled the incentive portion of the new
Rooney Rule. So here's essentially what the Rooney rule is.
It doesn't say you have to hire African American candidates.
(00:42):
It simply says you have to interview one African American
candidate for every head coaching position. Now the new portion
of the rule says you have to have you have
to interview at least two African American candidates. The portion
of the adjustment to the Rooney Rule, which you saw
(01:03):
so much pushback from from all over, was this incentive
laden kind of amendment to the rule where teams would
actually gain draft stock if they hired a coach, general
manager or quarterback coach. Okay, coach, general manager or quarterback
(01:25):
coach who's a minority, right, so uh. The NFL felt
the pushback from the black community, felt the pushback from
the coaching community, felt the pushback from the right, from
the left, even the middle. It was one of those
(01:45):
you know when you do a broadcast, you're calling a
basketball game or football game, and you're an analyst something
I do, and both fan bases think you're rooting for
the other team. You did a great job. When you're
trying to pass rule and everybody thinks it's a bad rule,
even it's a good kind of comes from a good place,
that's a sign it's a bad rule. But I'll tell
(02:08):
you what the NFL does a really good job of
is trying trying. I understand that there there's a lot
of downside if this rule ever gets past. Now remember
in this politically correct world, they didn't say no chance,
(02:30):
no shot never. They simply tabled it, which means, hey,
maybe next year. What the NFL is doing is saying, look,
we realize that there's a problem here. These numbers don't
look good. We can't be we can't be the biggest, boldest,
(02:51):
best professional sport in America and not have a representative
ratio of blacks to white in our front office and
coaching staff that is in anywhere, nowhere close to the
representation of minorities on the football field. Right. And and
what are we told so often times about why women
(03:14):
can never really be a coach in the NFL? One
they never played. Okay, why aren't former players and their
football knowledge being fostered and grown so that they can
become the next generation of coaches. And if that's the case,
why are there more black coaches? Right? So that's the
reasonable thing. Basketball has a similar ratio, if not even
(03:36):
more African American players. But they also they don't have
this problem at least in coaching staffs. It's different the
front office. Now, look, I can explain away the front
office and go into the Hey, it really does take
away not not a ton of guys that have played
have the chance to go and be a scout and
climb the ladder. But that is actually changing in basketball.
You're seeing Elton brand Isaiah Thomas has several times I've
(03:59):
been over unfranchises. Maggie Johnson ran a franchise, Michael Jordan
ran a franchise, owns a franchise. Now are the numbers perfect?
And a perfect snapshot of what former basketball players look like. No,
but there's also a much wider field of candidates from
all races that can be represented in the front office
(04:22):
as opposed in coaching staffs. But players will listen to
guys who did it, And it should be pointed out
that Sean McVeigh was a player, John mccrug, John Gruten
was a player, right, And they're the type of players
that didn't have this superlative talent, the superstar talent of others.
So they had to have a keen understanding of every
(04:46):
different position and every different nuance in order to make
it at any level. I I I get all that,
but if you've ever been in a relationship you want
the other person to hear you. It doesn't mean that
you can have a dramatic change immediately and drop everything
(05:06):
and be somebody you're not. The NFL is always going
to be the Voice club. It is always going to
be a place where you know, you you hire guys.
You know that's any business. And one of the things
that I've been a big proponent of the Rooney rule
is I think the interviews do help because it establishes
(05:28):
breaks down walls and builds relationships, breaks down walls and
builds relationships. And when it does so, right, when it
does so, when it breaks down walls and establishes relationships,
you may not get the job that time, but now
when somebody else, everybody talks. And for example, Brian Flores
(05:53):
wild people with his interviews a year before he ended
up getting the Dolphins job, so that when he the
Dolphins job came up and everyone said, you know, it
would be great Brian Flores. Look, I look at this
as a net positive for the NFL. Net positive. They
give a little bit more substance to the Rooney rule.
(06:15):
The Rooney rule does in fact work, but the numbers
haven't lined up recently, and it looks bad. It feels bad.
It doesn't feel like two thousand twenty in terms of
the hiring practices of front office members and head coaches
and offensive coordinators and quarterback coaches. Right just doesn't look
like it. So we need to increase and change and
(06:39):
tinker with the Ring rule to make it better and
look much like past interference rule. See a problem, try
and fix the problem, and if that doesn't work, you
scrap it. That's what they did with the instant replay
for past interference, like the kind of rushed into it.
(07:01):
Everyone said, not a great idea, there's some flaws to it.
It only worked a handful of times, and even then
in the playoffs it didn't happen and they did away
with it. But they did so because there was such
an egregious miscall that they wanted to protect themselves from
being told, you're not listening to us, which is what
(07:25):
they're doing now. Look, the NFL is still gonna allow
you to hire whoever you like, whoever you think is
the most qualified, best candidate, but man, we we gotta
have a better process here. The NFL, also, privately, kind
of behind the scenes, hasn't made a big thing of it.
They have an intern minority coaching position on every team.
(07:47):
Some have have two. Look, they are in fact trying.
They are listening and watching society and seeing the evolution. Like, man,
it doesn't look good, and by tabling it, you're telling
the league everyone's on notice. Everyone's on notice. Doesn't mean
you have to hire somebody who's black or hispanic or
(08:11):
mixed race. Mixed the said doesn't mean you have to. Boy,
you better exhaust all possible options before you just settle
on some guy who's been doing it in the league
for a long time, because well, it's his chance to
get a shot. As guys, we are we are accused
and sometimes rightfully so, of not hearing our significant other. Ah,
(08:32):
you're you're listening, but you don't hear me. This is
the NFL trying to make a change. Be sure to
catch the live edition of The Doug gott Leap Show
weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio. Ah app. One
of the discussions that I was having with people on
on Twitter was when Carl Alone got the ball stolen,
(08:55):
It wasn't all Carmelone's fault. For my entire adulthood, I
thought it was Karl Malone being soft for the basketball,
not seeing Michael Jordan steal the ball from the week side.
But having been a point guard and understanding what it's
like to feed the post, you gotta wait a second
or two seconds, fake as skip pass whatever, so that
Michael Jordan, remember this is the old illegal defense rules,
(09:19):
he couldn't sit in the lane otherwise it was a
legal defense. You gotta wait for him to clear. Stockton
didn't and It wasn't like he was being pressured by
Ron Harper, or by Scottie Pippen or something. He was
being pressured by Steve Kerr, not a special defender. Stockton
just waits a second or two longer, ball fakes pass.
(09:39):
But again, that's more of an inside basketball thing. It's
an inside basketball thing, whereas the outside basketball the fans
simply says, well, Jordan stole the ball because Jordan wanted
it more right. I see the same thing with this
article from a guy named Leander shar Latkins. He writes
for y'all who Sports. He's a soccer calumnist, right. He
(10:05):
writes that the documentary The Last Dance goes to enormous
lengths hours of them to make all of it, the bullying,
the belittling, the punching of teammates fine and dandy because
they won half a dozen titles. Even Steve Kerr says
he's now okay with Jordan's unprompted sucker punch to his face.
Jordan's never really reckoned with his flaws and doesn't want
(10:28):
to now either. In the end, the second most relevatory
thing about The Last Dance is what a one dimensional
unamienable man. Jordan was and remains. If he knows this
about himself, he doesn't care. But the surprise is that
after all these years, Jordan still buys into his own
(10:49):
It was all fine because we won. Nonsense, This was
the Michael Jordan. He wanted us to see, um yeah
and no, okay. First of all, like we want to
get down to it. Apparently it was a sucker punch
of the chest. Second of all, I've never been on
a basketball team since ninth grade that did not have
(11:13):
a fist fight between players, and usually those players either
became or were close friends before and definitely after the fight.
Like I got into fights with my college teammates and
several the fights with my absolute closest friends. Fights happen
for a reason, and there is a fine line between
(11:36):
bullying and leading and tough love. And I'm sorry, soccer guy,
I'm sorry writer guy. You weren't cut out for this.
It isn't for everybody. It's just not. It's it's exactly
like Jordan's said, You've never wanted everything. I actually think
(12:00):
that his reflection causes many of us former athletes to
reflect upon myself and realize, you're right. I am not
cut from that cloth. It's a different dude. Like I remember. Look,
I look back in my college days and I would
work my ass off of my shooting. I worked so
hard in the summer. I worked so hard in the fall,
(12:21):
and then we get to the season, and you know,
I had a a girlfriend who became a fiance, became
a wife after college whatever. I had friends, I like
to go out, I like to do a bunch of things.
I wanted to be in California in the summer wars.
If I really, really, really really wanted to make the
NB not just said it, I would have lived in
the gym. Yeah. I worked on my body so that
(12:42):
I was the type of athlete that could compete at
that level, but some of it was out of vanity.
I wanted to look good too. If I really and
during the season, I would have lived there. Your athletes
live with regret all the time, even and that's the
other part. He regrets not not getting a chance of
the seventh title. He he has regrets, but winning does
(13:07):
have a cost. Look Lebron, We'll talk at the top
of the hour about what Lebron has done better than Jordan's.
Kobe was much the same way. But like, look, Kobe
didn't have friends when he Guys didn't like him when
he played in the league, and a lot of guys
don't like Lebron. Now winning has a price. They respect them,
(13:30):
the respect them, and there's a lot of guys that
sit there and go like, man, who I just don't
have that in me. I don't and it and that's
okay too, And that's why you're not legend. That's why
you're not Jordan's And remember the burden people don't know.
I don't think like the writer he I don't know
how old he is. I think he's a little bit
younger than me. I'm not sure we understand the burden
(13:54):
that Jordan's carried. He doesn't excuse some of his boorish behavior,
but it does explain it. Like, look, this is the
type of guy that's like I can't believe he spoke
that way to Larry Bird. Hey, Dopey, do you know
Larry Bird was the most vicious trash talker in the league.
And by the way, he owned Michael Jordan's when he
(14:15):
was with the Celtics. They owned him right like the
pearl clutching Oh my gosh, over never using a curse word,
calling a good friend the B word, or telling a
good friend F you sorry, dude, this is not your deal.
It's okay. That's what it really looks like. That's what
(14:37):
it really feels like. We're not always here to make friends.
We're not always here to make you feel good. We
don't sit around and talk about our feelings all that much.
MJ was here. I'm here to win because remember, if
he didn't win, it wasn't just his internal sense that
(14:57):
created a failure. He'd been a failure. He'd a failure
to the rest of society. He was built up as
this legendary, mythical, bigger than life figure and if he didn't,
if his team didn't get it done, that was on him.
Don't believe me, How do we view Lebron James when
his teams have won. Be sure to catch the live
(15:19):
edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show week days at three
p m. Easter noon Pacific. Casey Johnson joins US Bulls
Insider NBC Sports Chicago. Casey, I want to get too
far more important stuff. But what do you do You
believe the story that Tim Grover told in the Last
Dance I mean, we've known, we've written about pizza for years,
and you know the night did happened. I was at
(15:40):
that game, and Utah, we wrote flu like symptoms because
that's what we were told. But I want to say
I was working for the Chicago Tribune of the time.
I want to stay within a couple of days, we're
already writing the eight bad pizza. As far as it
was poison or not, I have no idea. That's conspiracy
theory level stuff for me. I just know that, you know,
within a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks,
were writing that it was bad pizza and not the
(16:02):
not the flu. Casey Johnson joins us in the Doug
Gotlip Show on Fox Sports Radio. You know, this is
interesting to me that you guys uh printed out I
was reading yesterday. I think I don't know what it
actually went to print the unfinished memoirs um of Jerry Cross,
the late general manager of the team, and he explained
(16:24):
from his perspective what really happened in terms of a
after the season was done, we had the trainers, the doctors,
all the front office. We all got together and we
realized we can't resign Luke Longly, he's washed, Dennis Robbins
washed up. Scottie Pippot had two surgeries in two years
and then his back locked up in the playoffs, and
he wanted to get paid like that. This would be
(16:45):
a very very different look. Why why was that not mentioned?
Do you think in the documentary? UM? Well, I think
Jerry reinstor kind of alluded to maybe not that in
that detail or that specifics. I think Terry Ryan Storft
kind of you know, elucidated that same point in that
final ultimate scene and then they cut to Michael talking
(17:06):
about wanting to run it back UM for a seventh
title and for Chicago. I have an article posted there
UM today talking to Jerry Ryan Storff about that final scene,
and he claims that he and Michael had private conversations
at that time that he wouldn't go into detail on,
but that in general, Michael understood where the team was
coming from. You know that this is Doug. This is
(17:28):
an interesting dynamic. That's for me is you know, I
was not the lead B writer for the Chicago trip,
being back then Terry Armor was. We had several Greade
writers covering that. Sam Smith, Willis Isaacson. I was just
one of many writers when I was working for the
Chicago Tribune back then. But we covered all this stuff
back then in ninety eight. I just feel like it's
like getting relitigated now, and it's like this is all
(17:50):
stuff that has been reported and covered over time, and
obviously it's just now being viewed through this prism of
this documentary during that is released the global pandemic. You
can't you can't scrutinize or analyzes documentary without even that.
Lenson either, I agree, it's it's really really fascinating to me. Uh,
Casey Johnson joining us from NBC Sports Chicago, that the
(18:14):
timing worked out perfectly for Jordan's Obviously Jordan having some
creative control, um really worked out well for Jordan's And
the fact that Lebron you know, to this point hadn't
played in the playoffs in the Lakers uniform worked out
to Jordan's. Um. Your general takeaway from watching all ten
episodes of the documentaries, what then, it's great to see
(18:38):
Jordan's speaking again. I mean we all know, uh that
those of us who around him, for those you know,
was only around for the second threepeat. I was at
the Tribune to the first three peep and not covering
the NBA then, and you know, just we all know
what drove him and what made him tick. And as
we all know, he's not given any public interviews anymore.
He's you know, gave that wonderful times to Right Thompson
(18:58):
for that he SDN the magazine profile several years ago.
But really since the Hall of Same acceptance speech at
O nine, we have not hurt much publicly from Michael,
So God bless him. I mean, if if this is
a Michael Jordan documentary or he's got control or he
gets the last word, that's cool because he's the greatest
basketball player of all time and I just love him
talk again and reminding us all of what made him
(19:20):
tick and what drove him to such heights. It is
kind of funny, you know. I I'm talking to put
plenty of players from that are obviously kind of relationships
with a lot of those guys, and you know, some
of them are starting to clap back a little bit.
Adam horse Grant was on local Chicago Rady today clapping back.
It's some of Jordan's statement. So it's just, you know,
it's a dynasty and it's filled with people with great
(19:41):
pride and large amounts of testosterone. And uh, you know,
there's a reason why dynasties don't last forever because it's
hard to keep everybody pulling in the same direction. And
I think you know that's been borne out pretty uh,
pretty dramatically throughout this documentary. It's been written that the
Pippin didn't of how he was portrayed. I would say
(20:02):
that the only only negative portrayal was, uh, was Scottie
Pippen saying he would do it again in terms of
sitting out when Tony Cook coach made the game winner
against the Knicks. Isn't it because the Red he was
made out to be a sympathetic figure because of his
contract for throughout all ten episodes, and then out to
be a complete warrior um in that he you know,
(20:27):
played through pain in the final episode. I feel like
that's on Scottie, do you well, I think there's that
was said. I mean, you know that the migraine was
brought up, the one point eight seconds excuse able stains
on his career was brought up. Um, yeah, I mean
I think the episode ten convented. Yeah, you don't really
(20:47):
here's the thing though, Like I didn't need to see
episode ten to know that Scottie Pippen was a great
basketball player, you know what I mean. It's like no, no,
but you know, Casey, you know, like, look, Scotty has
had a reputation of being soft. He just did that.
That's why I felt like her and several others said,
like people thought he was soft, He's not like that.
They wouldn't say people think he's off unless people thought
he's soft. I do think it was important to point
(21:10):
out that he was out there on guts and you know,
it was kind of Jordan's versus the world. I thought
that part of the portrayal was actually really important and
it it It looked even though he was hurt, it
did look good upon Scottie Pippen kind of historically and
obviously about about Jordan's I don't know I would. I
(21:30):
would only push that. That's where I would push back there. Yeah,
and that's fair, you know, Like I said, well, like
I think there's a balance. I mean, you had it
Jordan's early in the I can't remember what episode about
one or two saying there's no Michael Jordan without Scotti Tippen.
That's the ultimate compliment you can get. Then you also
have Jordan's accurately reminding everybody how pissed he was that
Scotty believe that Surgery told me even the season, because
(21:54):
you don't, you know what, Michael was as smart as anybody.
He knew, UH that was starting to get a little wayward,
and that was pretty clearly spelled out of this documentary.
And Dennis was not always reliable in that. And so
Jordan knew what was gonna land on his plate without
Scotti Pippen until January, so you know there's balance there. Um.
(22:15):
I do think it ended on a strong note for Scotty,
and I also liked that Scotty, of all people, was
the one who you know, put the bow on the
Jerry Krauss package. And yet, because you know, Scotty was
not always forthcoming with praise or compliments for Jerry krausson
for him to acknowledge his talents, I thought was pretty noteworthy.
Casey Johnson joining us in the Doug Otlup Show on
Fox Sports Radio. Obviously Krauss looks like the bad guy.
(22:40):
Ryansdorff looked more like the bad guy. Uh. In the
end um, who to you, did you like and dislike
their portrayal in terms of the accuracy of it? Uh,
you know, I'm not really getting into like judging the film.
You know, it's it's it's it's the filmmaker's work, and
(23:02):
that's his work. I'm not gonna critique it, you know.
I mean I personally thought it was I will say
that going in my impressions, Wars is gonna be a
little bit more about the whole team and a little
bit more about maybe the ending, and you really only
got to the ending and the last what to his
team in as episode tent That was just my impression
once I started seeing it unfold and seeing what it
(23:23):
was about. I mean, if I'm a filmmaker and I
give Michael Jordan to sit down for three length the interviews,
I'm going where that takes me. So you know, I'm
not a filmmaker. I'm a I'm a sportswriter. I'm a journalist.
So um, but you know, to have Jordan's co operation
was fantastic. I mean, sure you can quip. I mean,
like the joke I've been using it was Ron Harper
on the Cavaliers of the Bulls you know, it's like
(23:45):
but but you know, I mean, Michael Jordan talked at length,
so you go where that takes you. And Michael Jordan,
of course is going to dominate it because he's the
greatest basketball player of all time. Um you know, as
far as the blame of getting that question a lot,
and you know, again, it's so multilayered, so multifasted, I
feel like we're covering old ground. It's to me, it's
(24:08):
as simple as this. In the summer of Krauss and
Phil's agent had horrifically contentious contract negotiation. Jerry Rayings the
Horse flew out to Montana personally negotiated with Phil, and
Phil came back for one more season. Now, you can
call what the bulls and Jerry Ryan stuff did in
(24:29):
eight as a publicity stunt, disingenuous if you want to
be skeptical. But Jerry Ryan did offer Phil the chance
to come back in ninety eight. And I get why
I still wanted to walk away. He was done, his
relationship with Jerry Krauss was over. He wanted a break.
Um So, but the bottom line is the invitation was there.
(24:50):
Inter just Tim Floyd as the director of basketball operations
I was at the news conference was one of the
most surreal experiences of all time. They didn't even need
to produce them as head co so pr stunt or not.
The opportunity was there for Phil and still chose not
to come. They'll take it. So that's the difference. In
ninety seven, Ryan's or consins stilled a return for one
(25:10):
season at so walked away. I'm not blaming still on
it was BULTI layered as to why he's left. But
that's that's the difference to me between ninety seven and
ninety Yesterday, I said, the truth is Phil knew it
was time. Robin was shot. Longley whatever pipping they'll Pippen
had a couple of good years, he was never really
the same, even in Houston when he played more minutes.
(25:31):
You know the idea that they would and even even
Jordan was human, right, Um, Like, the the whole theme
was how much they struggled all year just to get
to the playoffs and then Jordans kind of pushed him
over the threshold and look at some point, at some
point even the best bill damn breaks right. So I'm
(25:52):
just wondering, because you covered it then you knew what
was going on, Was it in fact time or should
they have run it back? I can just tell I
think what you just said dugging spot On and I
can just started beating around. I just personally had that
that season had the feeling of finality to me. I mean, look,
the Paces series was the toughest test of the entire
(26:14):
second three p Um. You know, even if the Utah's here,
you can say it at it than six. But without
Michael Proic it goes Game seven on the road and
Scotties of Bilbility in question. That's singing in the balance.
I'm not saying Bose lose that. I'm saying that they could.
So I can just tell you that that entire season
and it wasn't this joyless log I mean, they went
(26:35):
over sixty games and they want a chip each if
there were plenty of moments of levity and happiness and
uh fun to be around. But but just the entire
season had the vibe um that it was over. And
you're right, Phil, Phil use that very line many times.
It's it's time, It's time, um, And you know you
can you can play revisions history all you want, you know,
(26:58):
as I said before, Dynasty's don't us forever. And they're
hard for a reason because everybody has to be really
good at their jobs at the same time for a
long time. And sometimes you know, those things all end
and either end in messy fashion or neat fashion fashion.
They typically end in messy fashion. This one ended in
both MESSI off the court, meet on the court because
they're six and on the NBA Finals. Stuff. Casey Johnson
(27:21):
joining us on the Doug Gottlieb Show. Check out his work.
He's bulls inside of for NBC Sports Chicago. They've always
done a fabulous job of covering it and now it
is to you. That's his old news. But many people
they're like I, I had no idea and it's new,
and you guys have done a great job. Thanks so
much for joining us. I appreciate you having me. Thank
you very well. Pleasures are. Fox Sports Radio has the
(27:42):
best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of
our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within
the I Heart Radio app search f s R to
listen live. He's two times Super Bowl champion. Phil Simms
he joins us on Fox Sports Radio Film. Most importantly,
how are you? How's your health? Every being good? Is here, Douglas,
I call you, Douglas. That's probably what your mother college
(28:04):
you did something wrong. Not just my sister. My sister
is the only one who calls me Douglas. Sister, and
you you've always But everything is good. Our family, our
immediate family, all my kids, grandchildren, everybody's been healthy and
and unfortunately even the area I live in, it's just
been I've only heard of one or two people that
(28:24):
were unlucky or whatever you want to say, to catch
the virus, but they are now doing well. So it's
it's been good here in northern New Jersey's let's Tom
Brady apparently is at the Buccaneers facilities throwing to his
new wide receivers. What do you think of his decision? Oh, well,
it's look, I think I always thought and said that
(28:44):
he'll never wear another uniform but the Patriots. But I
think in the last couple of years you start to
see it unraveled. The fact that he didn't go to
O T A. S was a big deal, you know,
just the fact that maybe they're you know, so much
being made that could be true too of the just
a hatred way, also just not having the weapons he
wants and all that, and now there's a sense of
(29:06):
that he can maybe open up and and do a
different thing. You know, I think he's we're gonna see
a different Tim Brady just because you know, it's it's
a different, different atmosphere he's going to be working in.
So I do like the fact as usual as I
say to everybody, what a basketball players doing the off
season to get better? Doug? What? What? What? What basketball players?
But what don't you? You're a basketball player duty offseason?
(29:28):
You shot the ball? Right, you're always shooting in the gym? Well, well,
the thing about Tom Brady is he's always working on
his throwing, his footworking that constantly during the off season.
And more quarterbacks young and oh should should see that
and emulate it if possible, because it's really kept him
into being a sharp quarterback even at the AG is now,
how hard is it to go and when when you've
(29:50):
only been and I don't want to say one system,
because they really have evolved. You know, he wasn't you
know early in his career. He's more facilitator than in
the middle. You know, during that run even they didn't
win the Super Bowl, but they went sixteen and oh uh,
he that was the best offensive league, was a great
deep ball thrower to Randy Moss, and that thing changed
when they had Welker and everything was underneath. Um, so
(30:11):
it's not it hasn't been the same system, but using
the same verbage, you're working with most of the same people.
How difficult is it at this point in his career
to have a complete one eight and change? Well, you
don't wanted that system in New England just real quick
went from two backs and just a real generic offense
when they won their first Super Bowl. Then it went
to other things, the four wide receivers you talked about,
(30:33):
the slot receiver, all the double tight end. So they
always recreated a different offense for him for after a
couple of years. So that was great, Um, but it'll
be a challenge. It will be invigorating. He's gonna love it,
just you know, the challenge of learning the new I
didn't learn a new offense. I played fifteen years, fourteen
years in the exact same system, and then my fifteenth
(30:56):
year I got Dan Reeves completely different and it was like,
was awesome just to be learning something different. The challenge
and you know the challenge of learning playing with different teammates,
head coaches and all that. I think it's just going
to be great for him mentally. Phil Simms are guest
in the Doug out Leave Show on Fox Sports Radio. Um,
(31:16):
there's some other kind of curious quarterback stuff, Jamis. Jamis
Winston's trying to remake himself, but he's essentially the third
string quarterback with the New Orleans Saints. What do you
think of his decision? I thought it was a good
decision on his part, going to a different place to
learn a new way to play quarterback and offense. That
you know, throws a lot of short passes, but they're
(31:37):
always looking for the deep ball, which people don't really
realize they're always so in short passes. This, you know,
things like that, getting rid of its screens, but they're
just trying to set you up before they throw one
across the field, down the field or whatever. So, uh,
it's gonna be entirely different from what he's used to.
More verbage, more plays, and so many more thoughts and um,
(32:00):
being around Drew Brees and Sean Payton. It's real, That's
all I can tell you. I've gone to many teams
and know all the coaches. When you go to New Orleans.
It's a different feeling when you just watch how they
are working towards perfection and how much knowledge that Sean
Payton really does have and he can adapt to anything.
So Jamis Winson, great job by him going there, and
(32:23):
if he gets a chance to play, they'll be like
every other backup quarterback in New Orleans, he'll do very well.
I remember I was at your place and you got
chance to call Dak Prescott game his rookie year, and
I said, what do you think about Dak? And you said, well,
you know he's a quarterback. Now I know what you
mean by that, right, which means he walks in and
he just there's a different field to the room. Come
(32:44):
in right. There's something like being the man. You know,
you gotta that's right, Go ahead, okay. Um. So, so
now you've seen him evolve, you know that they're this
kind of contract impass where he's technically a franchise Taggi.
He wants a long term deal, but to be paid
among elites of the league. Um. There have been times
in which he hasn't had Zeke Elliott. They didn't look
(33:05):
great until they had a Maori Cooper. They weren't moving
the ball last year against the good teams. Um, they
were feeble offensively. In comparison against the bad teams, they
were great, I mean great number one offense in the NFL.
Now that you've seen him several years in the league,
is starting quarterback of the Cowboys. What's your assessment of
the value of Dak Prescott. Well, listen, there's no doubt
(33:27):
he's a franchise quarterback. Big, strong, mobile, throws the ball.
He's throwing the ball, in my eyes, a little better
every year he's been in the league, because when he
came in, I would say he was at best just
an average NFL throwing quarterback. So I think the whole
thing with him is you know just what I read
and you know I don't. I'm not a big contract guy.
(33:47):
But it's about four years or five years. The Cowboys
won five, he once four. I think they're probably pretty
close on the money. Um, So I don't know what
to say. I when you talk about all these offense
of things, too, just brings my mind new system. But
the Cowboys what they did last year, they did. They
can beat you with talent, but they very seldom beat
you with their minds. And those teams they've had over
(34:11):
the years, a lot of talent on both sides of
the ball, but they don't come through because there's just
not enough the version or whatever you given teams something
different on both sides of the balls, not only the offense,
but the defense too. And I think that will change
now Mike McCarthy, Mike Nolan, the defensive coordinator, it'll be
(34:31):
a different team. I mentioned Aaron Rodgers. Um, he looked
they had a great season in terms of record. They
turned things around with the first year coach. Obviously they
got kind of embarrassed by the San Francisco for the
Niners both times they played the Niners, but still a
good kind of turnaround year. So instead of drafting a weapon,
they draft his eventual potential replacement. Um, what are your
(34:56):
thoughts on Jordan's Love being the first round draft pick
of the Packers. Well, listen, uh to say, I'm surprised,
as an understatement about it. I studied Jordan's Love very hard,
liked him a lot. You know, I see the upside,
you know the upside, it's there, and but it's not
there now. He's not even a even finished or polished
as a college quarterback. So but I understand. You know,
(35:17):
a lot of people I know and I trust their advice,
had some high praise for him. I liked him too,
But I liked him not now in the first round,
that's for sure. I saw him as a late second
round pick, you know, just because of the upside. But
here's the thing. I'm sitting there, the Green Bay Packers,
I'm just gonna where they're gonna take. I'm different. I
(35:38):
said they're gonna take a defensive tackle because there was
a lot of good ones in the draft. Hug, and
what do they need they get beat with? Last year?
People ran the ball on them and dominated them, dominated
them physically. Just off the top of my head when
I started talking about I can name five or six games.
But they had no chance because they could not stop
the run. So you need big men inside they can
(36:01):
play the position to do it. I thought they would
draft a defensive tackle, then go get a wide receiver
just because there was It was the greatest year for
the wide receivers in my lifetime I've ever seen in
the draft. Yeah, but the top wide receivers were all gone, right.
It was deep and there was there was guys I
(36:21):
I don't know who was left. I know there's guys
like Chase Claypool that went in the third round from
Notre Dame. I liked him a lot. He's the this
year's DK Metcalf. He just didn't get the ball thrown
to him or nothing. College, but it's still there would
have been somebody there and instead of training up in
the first round for somebody, it's not gonna help you. Now,
then why don't we wait to the second round. If
(36:42):
we get a run um stopper in the first round,
then move up in the second round and get one
of the top wide receivers. If you look at it
that way, that would have been easy and it wouldn't
have cost here as much and you could have got
it done. But hey, they had a different plan. Um.
I don't know was Matt Lafleur. Was he, oh, we
gotta get us a quarterback of the future. I don't
(37:02):
know if it was him or just a general manager,
but just my opinion following the game closely, you've got
a quarterback. You can see I get a little worked
up over there. You've got a quarterback still in his prime. Okay,
he's got let's go on the low side. Two great
years still left in him, probably about four and maybe
five if he wants it easy. But did I see
(37:24):
the client in Aaron Rodgers physically last year? Yes, a
tiny bit, but still he's physically one of the most
gifted quarterbacks in the NFL. And you're thirteen and three.
Let's try to win now. You don't look down the
road when you're you're in that Super Bowl window. If
you think you're close, then get the pieces. They're gonna
(37:44):
drive you over the top and be able to overcome
San Francisco some of these other really good teams we're
gonna see in the NFC. Let me offer the opposite
perspective here. Um, Look, as long as you have Aaron Rodgers,
you're not drafting the top ten, top fifteen. And if
you have if they have a if you have evaluated,
Um Jordan's love has potentially, you know, with some refinement
(38:05):
in two or three years a franchise quarterback. Isn't it
a great opportunity to get a guy who can learn
under the best in the game for two or three years,
and no one wide receiver, a one defensive tackle at
that point in the draft is going to make the
type of make that type of difference. I don't know
about that. I'll disagree. A great defensive tackle, which like
I said, there were tons of them that could stop
(38:26):
the run, could disrupt two things, get him off the field,
quicker not let the other team dominate the clock, keep
Aaron Rodgers off the field. Another wide receiver to goal
along with Davante Adams. Yes, I think it would have
made a huge difference in their team. That could have
kept building that way. And you're talking about you know,
you're seeing the down down the line, and again, what
(38:47):
was your main point about Jordan's love going get him now?
Because you're thinking three and four years down the road.
I mean, man, the NFL is about now. You know,
in three years the general manager and before they both
might be fired by then. We don't know. Okay, so
so so, but by look, and Aaron Rodgers was a
better prospect, I'm not going to challenge on that. But
(39:09):
then by that look, they were good when they drafted
Aaron Rodgers and they had Brett Farve. And even when
Brett Farve walked away, that was an NFC championship game, uh,
team that he he walked away from before he retired.
And then ultimately ended up with the Jets. So if
we used history as our guy and look teams, even
though it's a different general manager with Ron Wolf, it's
(39:31):
still the same idea. How do we get in this position?
To begin with? We we we drafted a guy that
we evaluated as a potential replacement for a thirty five
year old quarterback who did sign. Look if it's a
little sign of age this year, a little bit more
next year, a little bit more of the year after that,
and look, what's what's the best thing that could happen
for Aaron Rodgers As he plays great and they trade
Jordan Love and they get a first round draft pick
(39:52):
in return. Well, you know what I would say to that,
If you're looking for your franchise quarterback, you know, go
get him when you need him. And you don't always
have to go get the guy in the draft. You
can trade to get somebody to keep it going. Whatever
they're sitting out there and whatever. So I don't agree that. Listen,
it's everybody makes the comparison to bred Farv and Aaron Rodgers. Look,
(40:12):
it's a it's a new world now. This is the
NFL is now, and we see it. It's every week,
and we judge it half by half and everything, and
so I'm just coming from that standpoint knowing, you know,
when you're close, you've gotta almost not gamble, but you've
got to take those chances to go win when you
(40:33):
think you're close, and just not to not to help
him and really not to help their defensive front. Um.
I think we're two mistakes. And you know Jordan's love.
I wish him well. I hope he plays great when
he gets the chance, But I'm not looking at my
football team three and four years down the road. I'm
looking for this year, next year, whatever after that. You know,
(40:56):
we'll see what happens, because that's the league. That's the
way I think the he gets Doug's two of the
answer to Miami's perpetual search for the next time Marino,
Oh my god. Well, you know they've probably had the
guy down there. But you know, Ryan Tannehill injuries. This
nobody was happy and we saw what he turned out
to be a big He was a franchise looking quarterback
last year. But to uh, you know, it'll be interesting. Um,
(41:20):
it's he can be the guy to make everybody happy
because he can get rid of the football. He's extremely
accurate with it when he throws it. Does he have
an overpowering arm, No, it's just it's probably in the
middle of the road by NFL standards that you know
somewhere in there. I worry about his size a little bit.
I think at times in college he played he played small,
(41:40):
can get engulfed too easy. But it's really not up
to to Doug. And you know that it's about the
head coach, Brian Flores, in the front office. Can they
put the right pieces around him. And of course they'll
try to emulate as much as they saw Alabama do
with him. Of course you try to emulate a lot
of those in the pros to show off his talents.
(42:03):
Phil is great to catch up with you. I'm so
happy that you're healthy. We get to talk with your
son a lot too, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, apple trees make apples.
I just said, just so you know that apple trees. Listen.
I'm a big fan of my sons, believe it or not,
I mean I am. I think he speaks to truth
and he knows what he's talking about. So sometimes I
learned from something from him too. But Doug, great talking
(42:25):
to you and uh, don't be afraid to call me.
I'm always ready. I will never be afraid to call you,
and I appreciate your text all the time. Thank thanks
so much, Phil, Phil Sims joining us the Super Bowl
champion two times over, Superow Champion quarterback Course long time
NFL analyst with CBS
Thanks for listening to the best of the Doug Gottlip
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
from three to six pm Eastern Time that's twelve to
three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your local station
for the Doug Gottlip Show at Fox Sports Radio dot com,
or stream us live every day on the I Heart
Radio app by searching fs R. This is the best
(00:22):
of the Doug got Leave Show on Fox Sports Radio.
The NFL tabled tabled the incentive portion of the new
Rooney Rule. So here's essentially what the Rooney rule is.
It doesn't say you have to hire African American candidates.
(00:42):
It simply says you have to interview one African American
candidate for every head coaching position. Now the new portion
of the rule says you have to have you have
to interview at least two African American candidates. The portion
of the adjustment to the Rooney Rule, which you saw
(01:03):
so much pushback from from all over, was this incentive
laden kind of amendment to the rule where teams would
actually gain draft stock if they hired a coach, general
manager or quarterback coach. Okay, coach, general manager or quarterback
(01:25):
coach who's a minority, right, so uh. The NFL felt
the pushback from the black community, felt the pushback from
the coaching community, felt the pushback from the right, from
the left, even the middle. It was one of those
(01:45):
you know when you do a broadcast, you're calling a
basketball game or football game, and you're an analyst something
I do, and both fan bases think you're rooting for
the other team. You did a great job. When you're
trying to pass rule and everybody thinks it's a bad rule,
even it's a good kind of comes from a good place,
that's a sign it's a bad rule. But I'll tell
(02:08):
you what the NFL does a really good job of
is trying trying. I understand that there there's a lot
of downside if this rule ever gets past. Now remember
in this politically correct world, they didn't say no chance,
(02:30):
no shot never. They simply tabled it, which means, hey,
maybe next year. What the NFL is doing is saying, look,
we realize that there's a problem here. These numbers don't
look good. We can't be we can't be the biggest, boldest,
(02:51):
best professional sport in America and not have a representative
ratio of blacks to white in our front office and
coaching staff that is in anywhere, nowhere close to the
representation of minorities on the football field. Right. And and
what are we told so often times about why women
(03:14):
can never really be a coach in the NFL? One
they never played. Okay, why aren't former players and their
football knowledge being fostered and grown so that they can
become the next generation of coaches. And if that's the case,
why are there more black coaches? Right? So that's the
reasonable thing. Basketball has a similar ratio, if not even
(03:36):
more African American players. But they also they don't have
this problem at least in coaching staffs. It's different the
front office. Now, look, I can explain away the front
office and go into the Hey, it really does take
away not not a ton of guys that have played
have the chance to go and be a scout and
climb the ladder. But that is actually changing in basketball.
You're seeing Elton brand Isaiah Thomas has several times I've
(03:59):
been over unfranchises. Maggie Johnson ran a franchise, Michael Jordan
ran a franchise, owns a franchise. Now are the numbers perfect?
And a perfect snapshot of what former basketball players look like. No,
but there's also a much wider field of candidates from
all races that can be represented in the front office
(04:22):
as opposed in coaching staffs. But players will listen to
guys who did it, And it should be pointed out
that Sean McVeigh was a player, John mccrug, John Gruten
was a player, right, And they're the type of players
that didn't have this superlative talent, the superstar talent of others.
So they had to have a keen understanding of every
(04:46):
different position and every different nuance in order to make
it at any level. I I I get all that,
but if you've ever been in a relationship you want
the other person to hear you. It doesn't mean that
you can have a dramatic change immediately and drop everything
(05:06):
and be somebody you're not. The NFL is always going
to be the Voice club. It is always going to
be a place where you know, you you hire guys.
You know that's any business. And one of the things
that I've been a big proponent of the Rooney rule
is I think the interviews do help because it establishes
(05:28):
breaks down walls and builds relationships, breaks down walls and
builds relationships. And when it does so, right, when it
does so, when it breaks down walls and establishes relationships,
you may not get the job that time, but now
when somebody else, everybody talks. And for example, Brian Flores
(05:53):
wild people with his interviews a year before he ended
up getting the Dolphins job, so that when he the
Dolphins job came up and everyone said, you know, it
would be great Brian Flores. Look, I look at this
as a net positive for the NFL. Net positive. They
give a little bit more substance to the Rooney rule.
(06:15):
The Rooney rule does in fact work, but the numbers
haven't lined up recently, and it looks bad. It feels bad.
It doesn't feel like two thousand twenty in terms of
the hiring practices of front office members and head coaches
and offensive coordinators and quarterback coaches. Right just doesn't look
like it. So we need to increase and change and
(06:39):
tinker with the Ring rule to make it better and
look much like past interference rule. See a problem, try
and fix the problem, and if that doesn't work, you
scrap it. That's what they did with the instant replay
for past interference, like the kind of rushed into it.
(07:01):
Everyone said, not a great idea, there's some flaws to it.
It only worked a handful of times, and even then
in the playoffs it didn't happen and they did away
with it. But they did so because there was such
an egregious miscall that they wanted to protect themselves from
being told, you're not listening to us, which is what
(07:25):
they're doing now. Look, the NFL is still gonna allow
you to hire whoever you like, whoever you think is
the most qualified, best candidate, but man, we we gotta
have a better process here. The NFL, also, privately, kind
of behind the scenes, hasn't made a big thing of it.
They have an intern minority coaching position on every team.
(07:47):
Some have have two. Look, they are in fact trying.
They are listening and watching society and seeing the evolution. Like, man,
it doesn't look good, and by tabling it, you're telling
the league everyone's on notice. Everyone's on notice. Doesn't mean
you have to hire somebody who's black or hispanic or
(08:11):
mixed race. Mixed the said doesn't mean you have to. Boy,
you better exhaust all possible options before you just settle
on some guy who's been doing it in the league
for a long time, because well, it's his chance to
get a shot. As guys, we are we are accused
and sometimes rightfully so, of not hearing our significant other. Ah,
(08:32):
you're you're listening, but you don't hear me. This is
the NFL trying to make a change. Be sure to
catch the live edition of The Doug gott Leap Show
weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio. Ah app. One
of the discussions that I was having with people on
on Twitter was when Carl Alone got the ball stolen,
(08:55):
It wasn't all Carmelone's fault. For my entire adulthood, I
thought it was Karl Malone being soft for the basketball,
not seeing Michael Jordan steal the ball from the week side.
But having been a point guard and understanding what it's
like to feed the post, you gotta wait a second
or two seconds, fake as skip pass whatever, so that
Michael Jordan, remember this is the old illegal defense rules,
(09:19):
he couldn't sit in the lane otherwise it was a
legal defense. You gotta wait for him to clear. Stockton
didn't and It wasn't like he was being pressured by
Ron Harper, or by Scottie Pippen or something. He was
being pressured by Steve Kerr, not a special defender. Stockton
just waits a second or two longer, ball fakes pass.
(09:39):
But again, that's more of an inside basketball thing. It's
an inside basketball thing, whereas the outside basketball the fans
simply says, well, Jordan stole the ball because Jordan wanted
it more right. I see the same thing with this
article from a guy named Leander shar Latkins. He writes
for y'all who Sports. He's a soccer calumnist, right. He
(10:05):
writes that the documentary The Last Dance goes to enormous
lengths hours of them to make all of it, the bullying,
the belittling, the punching of teammates fine and dandy because
they won half a dozen titles. Even Steve Kerr says
he's now okay with Jordan's unprompted sucker punch to his face.
Jordan's never really reckoned with his flaws and doesn't want
(10:28):
to now either. In the end, the second most relevatory
thing about The Last Dance is what a one dimensional
unamienable man. Jordan was and remains. If he knows this
about himself, he doesn't care. But the surprise is that
after all these years, Jordan still buys into his own
(10:49):
It was all fine because we won. Nonsense, This was
the Michael Jordan. He wanted us to see, um yeah
and no, okay. First of all, like we want to
get down to it. Apparently it was a sucker punch
of the chest. Second of all, I've never been on
a basketball team since ninth grade that did not have
(11:13):
a fist fight between players, and usually those players either
became or were close friends before and definitely after the fight.
Like I got into fights with my college teammates and
several the fights with my absolute closest friends. Fights happen
for a reason, and there is a fine line between
(11:36):
bullying and leading and tough love. And I'm sorry, soccer guy,
I'm sorry writer guy. You weren't cut out for this.
It isn't for everybody. It's just not. It's it's exactly
like Jordan's said, You've never wanted everything. I actually think
(12:00):
that his reflection causes many of us former athletes to
reflect upon myself and realize, you're right. I am not
cut from that cloth. It's a different dude. Like I remember. Look,
I look back in my college days and I would
work my ass off of my shooting. I worked so
hard in the summer. I worked so hard in the fall,
(12:21):
and then we get to the season, and you know,
I had a a girlfriend who became a fiance, became
a wife after college whatever. I had friends, I like
to go out, I like to do a bunch of things.
I wanted to be in California in the summer wars.
If I really, really, really really wanted to make the
NB not just said it, I would have lived in
the gym. Yeah. I worked on my body so that
(12:42):
I was the type of athlete that could compete at
that level, but some of it was out of vanity.
I wanted to look good too. If I really and
during the season, I would have lived there. Your athletes
live with regret all the time, even and that's the
other part. He regrets not not getting a chance of
the seventh title. He he has regrets, but winning does
(13:07):
have a cost. Look Lebron, We'll talk at the top
of the hour about what Lebron has done better than Jordan's.
Kobe was much the same way. But like, look, Kobe
didn't have friends when he Guys didn't like him when
he played in the league, and a lot of guys
don't like Lebron. Now winning has a price. They respect them,
(13:30):
the respect them, and there's a lot of guys that
sit there and go like, man, who I just don't
have that in me. I don't and it and that's
okay too, And that's why you're not legend. That's why
you're not Jordan's And remember the burden people don't know.
I don't think like the writer he I don't know
how old he is. I think he's a little bit
younger than me. I'm not sure we understand the burden
(13:54):
that Jordan's carried. He doesn't excuse some of his boorish behavior,
but it does explain it. Like, look, this is the
type of guy that's like I can't believe he spoke
that way to Larry Bird. Hey, Dopey, do you know
Larry Bird was the most vicious trash talker in the league.
And by the way, he owned Michael Jordan's when he
(14:15):
was with the Celtics. They owned him right like the
pearl clutching Oh my gosh, over never using a curse word,
calling a good friend the B word, or telling a
good friend F you sorry, dude, this is not your deal.
It's okay. That's what it really looks like. That's what
(14:37):
it really feels like. We're not always here to make friends.
We're not always here to make you feel good. We
don't sit around and talk about our feelings all that much.
MJ was here. I'm here to win because remember, if
he didn't win, it wasn't just his internal sense that
(14:57):
created a failure. He'd been a failure. He'd a failure
to the rest of society. He was built up as
this legendary, mythical, bigger than life figure and if he didn't,
if his team didn't get it done, that was on him.
Don't believe me, How do we view Lebron James when
his teams have won. Be sure to catch the live
(15:19):
edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show week days at three
p m. Easter noon Pacific. Casey Johnson joins US Bulls
Insider NBC Sports Chicago. Casey, I want to get too
far more important stuff. But what do you do You
believe the story that Tim Grover told in the Last
Dance I mean, we've known, we've written about pizza for years,
and you know the night did happened. I was at
(15:40):
that game, and Utah, we wrote flu like symptoms because
that's what we were told. But I want to say
I was working for the Chicago Tribune of the time.
I want to stay within a couple of days, we're
already writing the eight bad pizza. As far as it
was poison or not, I have no idea. That's conspiracy
theory level stuff for me. I just know that, you know,
within a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks,
were writing that it was bad pizza and not the
(16:02):
not the flu. Casey Johnson joins us in the Doug
Gotlip Show on Fox Sports Radio. You know, this is
interesting to me that you guys uh printed out I
was reading yesterday. I think I don't know what it
actually went to print the unfinished memoirs um of Jerry Cross,
the late general manager of the team, and he explained
(16:24):
from his perspective what really happened in terms of a
after the season was done, we had the trainers, the doctors,
all the front office. We all got together and we
realized we can't resign Luke Longly, he's washed, Dennis Robbins
washed up. Scottie Pippot had two surgeries in two years
and then his back locked up in the playoffs, and
he wanted to get paid like that. This would be
(16:45):
a very very different look. Why why was that not mentioned?
Do you think in the documentary? UM? Well, I think
Jerry reinstor kind of alluded to maybe not that in
that detail or that specifics. I think Terry Ryan Storft
kind of you know, elucidated that same point in that
final ultimate scene and then they cut to Michael talking
(17:06):
about wanting to run it back UM for a seventh
title and for Chicago. I have an article posted there
UM today talking to Jerry Ryan Storff about that final scene,
and he claims that he and Michael had private conversations
at that time that he wouldn't go into detail on,
but that in general, Michael understood where the team was
coming from. You know that this is Doug. This is
(17:28):
an interesting dynamic. That's for me is you know, I
was not the lead B writer for the Chicago trip,
being back then Terry Armor was. We had several Greade
writers covering that. Sam Smith, Willis Isaacson. I was just
one of many writers when I was working for the
Chicago Tribune back then. But we covered all this stuff
back then in ninety eight. I just feel like it's
like getting relitigated now, and it's like this is all
(17:50):
stuff that has been reported and covered over time, and
obviously it's just now being viewed through this prism of
this documentary during that is released the global pandemic. You
can't you can't scrutinize or analyzes documentary without even that.
Lenson either, I agree, it's it's really really fascinating to me. Uh,
Casey Johnson joining us from NBC Sports Chicago, that the
(18:14):
timing worked out perfectly for Jordan's Obviously Jordan having some
creative control, um really worked out well for Jordan's And
the fact that Lebron you know, to this point hadn't
played in the playoffs in the Lakers uniform worked out
to Jordan's. Um. Your general takeaway from watching all ten
episodes of the documentaries, what then, it's great to see
(18:38):
Jordan's speaking again. I mean we all know, uh that
those of us who around him, for those you know,
was only around for the second threepeat. I was at
the Tribune to the first three peep and not covering
the NBA then, and you know, just we all know
what drove him and what made him tick. And as
we all know, he's not given any public interviews anymore.
He's you know, gave that wonderful times to Right Thompson
(18:58):
for that he SDN the magazine profile several years ago.
But really since the Hall of Same acceptance speech at
O nine, we have not hurt much publicly from Michael,
So God bless him. I mean, if if this is
a Michael Jordan documentary or he's got control or he
gets the last word, that's cool because he's the greatest
basketball player of all time and I just love him
talk again and reminding us all of what made him
(19:20):
tick and what drove him to such heights. It is
kind of funny, you know. I I'm talking to put
plenty of players from that are obviously kind of relationships
with a lot of those guys, and you know, some
of them are starting to clap back a little bit.
Adam horse Grant was on local Chicago Rady today clapping back.
It's some of Jordan's statement. So it's just, you know,
it's a dynasty and it's filled with people with great
(19:41):
pride and large amounts of testosterone. And uh, you know,
there's a reason why dynasties don't last forever because it's
hard to keep everybody pulling in the same direction. And
I think you know that's been borne out pretty uh,
pretty dramatically throughout this documentary. It's been written that the
Pippin didn't of how he was portrayed. I would say
(20:02):
that the only only negative portrayal was, uh, was Scottie
Pippen saying he would do it again in terms of
sitting out when Tony Cook coach made the game winner
against the Knicks. Isn't it because the Red he was
made out to be a sympathetic figure because of his
contract for throughout all ten episodes, and then out to
be a complete warrior um in that he you know,
(20:27):
played through pain in the final episode. I feel like
that's on Scottie, do you well, I think there's that
was said. I mean, you know that the migraine was
brought up, the one point eight seconds excuse able stains
on his career was brought up. Um, yeah, I mean
I think the episode ten convented. Yeah, you don't really
(20:47):
here's the thing though, Like I didn't need to see
episode ten to know that Scottie Pippen was a great
basketball player, you know what I mean. It's like no, no,
but you know, Casey, you know, like, look, Scotty has
had a reputation of being soft. He just did that.
That's why I felt like her and several others said,
like people thought he was soft, He's not like that.
They wouldn't say people think he's off unless people thought
he's soft. I do think it was important to point
(21:10):
out that he was out there on guts and you know,
it was kind of Jordan's versus the world. I thought
that part of the portrayal was actually really important and
it it It looked even though he was hurt, it
did look good upon Scottie Pippen kind of historically and
obviously about about Jordan's I don't know I would. I
(21:30):
would only push that. That's where I would push back there. Yeah,
and that's fair, you know, Like I said, well, like
I think there's a balance. I mean, you had it
Jordan's early in the I can't remember what episode about
one or two saying there's no Michael Jordan without Scotti Tippen.
That's the ultimate compliment you can get. Then you also
have Jordan's accurately reminding everybody how pissed he was that
Scotty believe that Surgery told me even the season, because
(21:54):
you don't, you know what, Michael was as smart as anybody.
He knew, UH that was starting to get a little wayward,
and that was pretty clearly spelled out of this documentary.
And Dennis was not always reliable in that. And so
Jordan knew what was gonna land on his plate without
Scotti Pippen until January, so you know there's balance there. Um.
(22:15):
I do think it ended on a strong note for Scotty,
and I also liked that Scotty, of all people, was
the one who you know, put the bow on the
Jerry Krauss package. And yet, because you know, Scotty was
not always forthcoming with praise or compliments for Jerry krausson
for him to acknowledge his talents, I thought was pretty noteworthy.
Casey Johnson joining us in the Doug Otlup Show on
Fox Sports Radio. Obviously Krauss looks like the bad guy.
(22:40):
Ryansdorff looked more like the bad guy. Uh. In the
end um, who to you, did you like and dislike
their portrayal in terms of the accuracy of it? Uh,
you know, I'm not really getting into like judging the film.
You know, it's it's it's it's the filmmaker's work, and
(23:02):
that's his work. I'm not gonna critique it, you know.
I mean I personally thought it was I will say
that going in my impressions, Wars is gonna be a
little bit more about the whole team and a little
bit more about maybe the ending, and you really only
got to the ending and the last what to his
team in as episode tent That was just my impression
once I started seeing it unfold and seeing what it
(23:23):
was about. I mean, if I'm a filmmaker and I
give Michael Jordan to sit down for three length the interviews,
I'm going where that takes me. So you know, I'm
not a filmmaker. I'm a I'm a sportswriter. I'm a journalist.
So um, but you know, to have Jordan's co operation
was fantastic. I mean, sure you can quip. I mean,
like the joke I've been using it was Ron Harper
on the Cavaliers of the Bulls you know, it's like
(23:45):
but but you know, I mean, Michael Jordan talked at length,
so you go where that takes you. And Michael Jordan,
of course is going to dominate it because he's the
greatest basketball player of all time. Um you know, as
far as the blame of getting that question a lot,
and you know, again, it's so multilayered, so multifasted, I
feel like we're covering old ground. It's to me, it's
(24:08):
as simple as this. In the summer of Krauss and
Phil's agent had horrifically contentious contract negotiation. Jerry Rayings the
Horse flew out to Montana personally negotiated with Phil, and
Phil came back for one more season. Now, you can
call what the bulls and Jerry Ryan stuff did in
(24:29):
eight as a publicity stunt, disingenuous if you want to
be skeptical. But Jerry Ryan did offer Phil the chance
to come back in ninety eight. And I get why
I still wanted to walk away. He was done, his
relationship with Jerry Krauss was over. He wanted a break.
Um So, but the bottom line is the invitation was there.
(24:50):
Inter just Tim Floyd as the director of basketball operations
I was at the news conference was one of the
most surreal experiences of all time. They didn't even need
to produce them as head co so pr stunt or not.
The opportunity was there for Phil and still chose not
to come. They'll take it. So that's the difference. In
ninety seven, Ryan's or consins stilled a return for one
(25:10):
season at so walked away. I'm not blaming still on
it was BULTI layered as to why he's left. But
that's that's the difference to me between ninety seven and
ninety Yesterday, I said, the truth is Phil knew it
was time. Robin was shot. Longley whatever pipping they'll Pippen
had a couple of good years, he was never really
the same, even in Houston when he played more minutes.
(25:31):
You know the idea that they would and even even
Jordan was human, right, Um, Like, the the whole theme
was how much they struggled all year just to get
to the playoffs and then Jordans kind of pushed him
over the threshold and look at some point, at some
point even the best bill damn breaks right. So I'm
(25:52):
just wondering, because you covered it then you knew what
was going on, Was it in fact time or should
they have run it back? I can just tell I
think what you just said dugging spot On and I
can just started beating around. I just personally had that
that season had the feeling of finality to me. I mean, look,
the Paces series was the toughest test of the entire
(26:14):
second three p Um. You know, even if the Utah's here,
you can say it at it than six. But without
Michael Proic it goes Game seven on the road and
Scotties of Bilbility in question. That's singing in the balance.
I'm not saying Bose lose that. I'm saying that they could.
So I can just tell you that that entire season
and it wasn't this joyless log I mean, they went
(26:35):
over sixty games and they want a chip each if
there were plenty of moments of levity and happiness and
uh fun to be around. But but just the entire
season had the vibe um that it was over. And
you're right, Phil, Phil use that very line many times.
It's it's time, It's time, um, And you know you
can you can play revisions history all you want, you know,
(26:58):
as I said before, Dynasty's don't us forever. And they're
hard for a reason because everybody has to be really
good at their jobs at the same time for a
long time. And sometimes you know, those things all end
and either end in messy fashion or neat fashion fashion.
They typically end in messy fashion. This one ended in
both MESSI off the court, meet on the court because
they're six and on the NBA Finals. Stuff. Casey Johnson
(27:21):
joining us on the Doug Gottlieb Show. Check out his work.
He's bulls inside of for NBC Sports Chicago. They've always
done a fabulous job of covering it and now it
is to you. That's his old news. But many people
they're like I, I had no idea and it's new,
and you guys have done a great job. Thanks so
much for joining us. I appreciate you having me. Thank
you very well. Pleasures are. Fox Sports Radio has the
(27:42):
best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of
our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within
the I Heart Radio app search f s R to
listen live. He's two times Super Bowl champion. Phil Simms
he joins us on Fox Sports Radio Film. Most importantly,
how are you? How's your health? Every being good? Is here, Douglas,
I call you, Douglas. That's probably what your mother college
(28:04):
you did something wrong. Not just my sister. My sister
is the only one who calls me Douglas. Sister, and
you you've always But everything is good. Our family, our
immediate family, all my kids, grandchildren, everybody's been healthy and
and unfortunately even the area I live in, it's just
been I've only heard of one or two people that
(28:24):
were unlucky or whatever you want to say, to catch
the virus, but they are now doing well. So it's
it's been good here in northern New Jersey's let's Tom
Brady apparently is at the Buccaneers facilities throwing to his
new wide receivers. What do you think of his decision? Oh, well,
it's look, I think I always thought and said that
(28:44):
he'll never wear another uniform but the Patriots. But I
think in the last couple of years you start to
see it unraveled. The fact that he didn't go to
O T A. S was a big deal, you know,
just the fact that maybe they're you know, so much
being made that could be true too of the just
a hatred way, also just not having the weapons he
wants and all that, and now there's a sense of
(29:06):
that he can maybe open up and and do a
different thing. You know, I think he's we're gonna see
a different Tim Brady just because you know, it's it's
a different, different atmosphere he's going to be working in.
So I do like the fact as usual as I
say to everybody, what a basketball players doing the off
season to get better? Doug? What? What? What? What basketball players?
But what don't you? You're a basketball player duty offseason?
(29:28):
You shot the ball? Right, you're always shooting in the gym? Well, well,
the thing about Tom Brady is he's always working on
his throwing, his footworking that constantly during the off season.
And more quarterbacks young and oh should should see that
and emulate it if possible, because it's really kept him
into being a sharp quarterback even at the AG is now,
how hard is it to go and when when you've
(29:50):
only been and I don't want to say one system,
because they really have evolved. You know, he wasn't you
know early in his career. He's more facilitator than in
the middle. You know, during that run even they didn't
win the Super Bowl, but they went sixteen and oh uh,
he that was the best offensive league, was a great
deep ball thrower to Randy Moss, and that thing changed
when they had Welker and everything was underneath. Um, so
(30:11):
it's not it hasn't been the same system, but using
the same verbage, you're working with most of the same people.
How difficult is it at this point in his career
to have a complete one eight and change? Well, you
don't wanted that system in New England just real quick
went from two backs and just a real generic offense
when they won their first Super Bowl. Then it went
to other things, the four wide receivers you talked about,
(30:33):
the slot receiver, all the double tight end. So they
always recreated a different offense for him for after a
couple of years. So that was great, Um, but it'll
be a challenge. It will be invigorating. He's gonna love it,
just you know, the challenge of learning the new I
didn't learn a new offense. I played fifteen years, fourteen
years in the exact same system, and then my fifteenth
(30:56):
year I got Dan Reeves completely different and it was like,
was awesome just to be learning something different. The challenge
and you know the challenge of learning playing with different teammates,
head coaches and all that. I think it's just going
to be great for him mentally. Phil Simms are guest
in the Doug out Leave Show on Fox Sports Radio. Um,
(31:16):
there's some other kind of curious quarterback stuff, Jamis. Jamis
Winston's trying to remake himself, but he's essentially the third
string quarterback with the New Orleans Saints. What do you
think of his decision? I thought it was a good
decision on his part, going to a different place to
learn a new way to play quarterback and offense. That
you know, throws a lot of short passes, but they're
(31:37):
always looking for the deep ball, which people don't really
realize they're always so in short passes. This, you know,
things like that, getting rid of its screens, but they're
just trying to set you up before they throw one
across the field, down the field or whatever. So, uh,
it's gonna be entirely different from what he's used to.
More verbage, more plays, and so many more thoughts and um,
(32:00):
being around Drew Brees and Sean Payton. It's real, That's
all I can tell you. I've gone to many teams
and know all the coaches. When you go to New Orleans.
It's a different feeling when you just watch how they
are working towards perfection and how much knowledge that Sean
Payton really does have and he can adapt to anything.
So Jamis Winson, great job by him going there, and
(32:23):
if he gets a chance to play, they'll be like
every other backup quarterback in New Orleans, he'll do very well.
I remember I was at your place and you got
chance to call Dak Prescott game his rookie year, and
I said, what do you think about Dak? And you said, well,
you know he's a quarterback. Now I know what you
mean by that, right, which means he walks in and
he just there's a different field to the room. Come
(32:44):
in right. There's something like being the man. You know,
you gotta that's right, Go ahead, okay. Um. So, so
now you've seen him evolve, you know that they're this
kind of contract impass where he's technically a franchise Taggi.
He wants a long term deal, but to be paid
among elites of the league. Um. There have been times
in which he hasn't had Zeke Elliott. They didn't look
(33:05):
great until they had a Maori Cooper. They weren't moving
the ball last year against the good teams. Um, they
were feeble offensively. In comparison against the bad teams, they
were great, I mean great number one offense in the NFL.
Now that you've seen him several years in the league,
is starting quarterback of the Cowboys. What's your assessment of
the value of Dak Prescott. Well, listen, there's no doubt
(33:27):
he's a franchise quarterback. Big, strong, mobile, throws the ball.
He's throwing the ball, in my eyes, a little better
every year he's been in the league, because when he
came in, I would say he was at best just
an average NFL throwing quarterback. So I think the whole
thing with him is you know just what I read
and you know I don't. I'm not a big contract guy.
(33:47):
But it's about four years or five years. The Cowboys
won five, he once four. I think they're probably pretty
close on the money. Um, So I don't know what
to say. I when you talk about all these offense
of things, too, just brings my mind new system. But
the Cowboys what they did last year, they did. They
can beat you with talent, but they very seldom beat
you with their minds. And those teams they've had over
(34:11):
the years, a lot of talent on both sides of
the ball, but they don't come through because there's just
not enough the version or whatever you given teams something
different on both sides of the balls, not only the offense,
but the defense too. And I think that will change
now Mike McCarthy, Mike Nolan, the defensive coordinator, it'll be
(34:31):
a different team. I mentioned Aaron Rodgers. Um, he looked
they had a great season in terms of record. They
turned things around with the first year coach. Obviously they
got kind of embarrassed by the San Francisco for the
Niners both times they played the Niners, but still a
good kind of turnaround year. So instead of drafting a weapon,
they draft his eventual potential replacement. Um, what are your
(34:56):
thoughts on Jordan's Love being the first round draft pick
of the Packers. Well, listen, uh to say, I'm surprised,
as an understatement about it. I studied Jordan's Love very hard,
liked him a lot. You know, I see the upside,
you know the upside, it's there, and but it's not
there now. He's not even a even finished or polished
as a college quarterback. So but I understand. You know,
(35:17):
a lot of people I know and I trust their advice,
had some high praise for him. I liked him too,
But I liked him not now in the first round,
that's for sure. I saw him as a late second
round pick, you know, just because of the upside. But
here's the thing. I'm sitting there, the Green Bay Packers,
I'm just gonna where they're gonna take. I'm different. I
(35:38):
said they're gonna take a defensive tackle because there was
a lot of good ones in the draft. Hug, and
what do they need they get beat with? Last year?
People ran the ball on them and dominated them, dominated
them physically. Just off the top of my head when
I started talking about I can name five or six games.
But they had no chance because they could not stop
the run. So you need big men inside they can
(36:01):
play the position to do it. I thought they would
draft a defensive tackle, then go get a wide receiver
just because there was It was the greatest year for
the wide receivers in my lifetime I've ever seen in
the draft. Yeah, but the top wide receivers were all gone, right.
It was deep and there was there was guys I
(36:21):
I don't know who was left. I know there's guys
like Chase Claypool that went in the third round from
Notre Dame. I liked him a lot. He's the this
year's DK Metcalf. He just didn't get the ball thrown
to him or nothing. College, but it's still there would
have been somebody there and instead of training up in
the first round for somebody, it's not gonna help you. Now,
then why don't we wait to the second round. If
(36:42):
we get a run um stopper in the first round,
then move up in the second round and get one
of the top wide receivers. If you look at it
that way, that would have been easy and it wouldn't
have cost here as much and you could have got
it done. But hey, they had a different plan. Um.
I don't know was Matt Lafleur. Was he, oh, we
gotta get us a quarterback of the future. I don't
(37:02):
know if it was him or just a general manager,
but just my opinion following the game closely, you've got
a quarterback. You can see I get a little worked
up over there. You've got a quarterback still in his prime. Okay,
he's got let's go on the low side. Two great
years still left in him, probably about four and maybe
five if he wants it easy. But did I see
(37:24):
the client in Aaron Rodgers physically last year? Yes, a
tiny bit, but still he's physically one of the most
gifted quarterbacks in the NFL. And you're thirteen and three.
Let's try to win now. You don't look down the
road when you're you're in that Super Bowl window. If
you think you're close, then get the pieces. They're gonna
(37:44):
drive you over the top and be able to overcome
San Francisco some of these other really good teams we're
gonna see in the NFC. Let me offer the opposite
perspective here. Um, Look, as long as you have Aaron Rodgers,
you're not drafting the top ten, top fifteen. And if
you have if they have a if you have evaluated,
Um Jordan's love has potentially, you know, with some refinement
(38:05):
in two or three years a franchise quarterback. Isn't it
a great opportunity to get a guy who can learn
under the best in the game for two or three years,
and no one wide receiver, a one defensive tackle at
that point in the draft is going to make the
type of make that type of difference. I don't know
about that. I'll disagree. A great defensive tackle, which like
I said, there were tons of them that could stop
(38:26):
the run, could disrupt two things, get him off the field,
quicker not let the other team dominate the clock, keep
Aaron Rodgers off the field. Another wide receiver to goal
along with Davante Adams. Yes, I think it would have
made a huge difference in their team. That could have
kept building that way. And you're talking about you know,
you're seeing the down down the line, and again, what
(38:47):
was your main point about Jordan's love going get him now?
Because you're thinking three and four years down the road.
I mean, man, the NFL is about now. You know,
in three years the general manager and before they both
might be fired by then. We don't know. Okay, so
so so, but by look, and Aaron Rodgers was a
better prospect, I'm not going to challenge on that. But
(39:09):
then by that look, they were good when they drafted
Aaron Rodgers and they had Brett Farve. And even when
Brett Farve walked away, that was an NFC championship game, uh,
team that he he walked away from before he retired.
And then ultimately ended up with the Jets. So if
we used history as our guy and look teams, even
though it's a different general manager with Ron Wolf, it's
(39:31):
still the same idea. How do we get in this position?
To begin with? We we we drafted a guy that
we evaluated as a potential replacement for a thirty five
year old quarterback who did sign. Look if it's a
little sign of age this year, a little bit more
next year, a little bit more of the year after that,
and look, what's what's the best thing that could happen
for Aaron Rodgers As he plays great and they trade
Jordan Love and they get a first round draft pick
(39:52):
in return. Well, you know what I would say to that,
If you're looking for your franchise quarterback, you know, go
get him when you need him. And you don't always
have to go get the guy in the draft. You
can trade to get somebody to keep it going. Whatever
they're sitting out there and whatever. So I don't agree that. Listen,
it's everybody makes the comparison to bred Farv and Aaron Rodgers. Look,
(40:12):
it's a it's a new world now. This is the
NFL is now, and we see it. It's every week,
and we judge it half by half and everything, and
so I'm just coming from that standpoint knowing, you know,
when you're close, you've gotta almost not gamble, but you've
got to take those chances to go win when you
(40:33):
think you're close, and just not to not to help
him and really not to help their defensive front. Um.
I think we're two mistakes. And you know Jordan's love.
I wish him well. I hope he plays great when
he gets the chance, But I'm not looking at my
football team three and four years down the road. I'm
looking for this year, next year, whatever after that. You know,
(40:56):
we'll see what happens, because that's the league. That's the
way I think the he gets Doug's two of the
answer to Miami's perpetual search for the next time Marino,
Oh my god. Well, you know they've probably had the
guy down there. But you know, Ryan Tannehill injuries. This
nobody was happy and we saw what he turned out
to be a big He was a franchise looking quarterback
last year. But to uh, you know, it'll be interesting. Um,
(41:20):
it's he can be the guy to make everybody happy
because he can get rid of the football. He's extremely
accurate with it when he throws it. Does he have
an overpowering arm, No, it's just it's probably in the
middle of the road by NFL standards that you know
somewhere in there. I worry about his size a little bit.
I think at times in college he played he played small,
(41:40):
can get engulfed too easy. But it's really not up
to to Doug. And you know that it's about the
head coach, Brian Flores, in the front office. Can they
put the right pieces around him. And of course they'll
try to emulate as much as they saw Alabama do
with him. Of course you try to emulate a lot
of those in the pros to show off his talents.
(42:03):
Phil is great to catch up with you. I'm so
happy that you're healthy. We get to talk with your
son a lot too, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, apple trees make apples.
I just said, just so you know that apple trees. Listen.
I'm a big fan of my sons, believe it or not,
I mean I am. I think he speaks to truth
and he knows what he's talking about. So sometimes I
learned from something from him too. But Doug, great talking
(42:25):
to you and uh, don't be afraid to call me.
I'm always ready. I will never be afraid to call you,
and I appreciate your text all the time. Thank thanks
so much, Phil, Phil Sims joining us the Super Bowl
champion two times over, Superow Champion quarterback Course long time
NFL analyst with CBS
Host
Doug Gottlieb
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.