December 17, 2025 • 47 mins
Content Warning: There are mentions of racial violence in this episode. If you have sensitivities around this subject, I urge you to take breaks as needed, or step away if it becomes too difficult.
In 2023, the murder of Ajike “AJ” Owens shook the country–another Black mother taken too soon in a moment of senseless and unnecessary violence. In the years since, AJ’s story as told on Netflix’s ‘The Perfect Neighbor’ has prompted a larger conversation around race, fear, Stand Your Ground laws, and the everyday realities and dangers Black families navigate in America and in their communities. But AJ was more than a victim of racial violence, she was a woman whose life was filled with love, ambition, and unapologetic hope for her children and her future.
Today, I’m pleased to be joined by two women who are integral to carrying AJ’s story forward with courage and purpose. Pamela Dias, AJ’s mother and co-founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund, has turned unfathomable grief into a mission to protect families who face race-based violence and its aftermath. Here with Pamela is her co-founder Takema Robinson, producer, and advocate for racial justice who helped bring AJ’s story to the masses.
In this conversation, we explore how their relationship formed, what it means to tell a story shaped by grief, and how storytelling, advocacy, and memory can become pathways to collective healing. We talk about community, justice, and the ongoing fight to ensure that AJ and so many others like her are not forgotten.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four forty two the Therapy
for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Before we get started,
just a brief content note that there are mentions of
(01:17):
racial violence in today's episode. If you have sensitivities around
this subject, I urge you to take breaks as needed
or step away if it becomes too difficult. In twenty
twenty three, the murder of Agica aj Owens shook the country,
another Black mother taken too soon in a moment of
senseless and unnecessary violence. In the years since, AJ's story,
(01:40):
as told on Netflix's The Perfect Neighbor, has prompted a
larger conversation around race, fear, stand your ground laws, and
the everyday realities and dangers Black families navigate in America
and in their communities. But Aj was more than a
victim of racial violence. She was a woman whose life
was filled with love, ambition, and unapologetic hope for her
(02:02):
children and her future. Today, I'm pleased to be joined
by two women who are integral to carrying AJ's story
forward with courage and purpose. Pamela Diaz, AJ's mother and
co founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund, has
turned unfathomable grief into a mission to protect families to
face race based violence and its aftermath. Here with Pamela
(02:26):
is her co founder, Sakima Robinson, producer and advocate for
racial justice, who helped bring AJ's story to the masses.
In this conversation, we explore how their relationship formed, what
it means to tell a story shaped by grief, and
how storytelling, advocacy, and memory can become pathways to collective healing.
(02:46):
We talk about community justice and the ongoing fight to
ensure that Aj and so many others like her are
not forgotten. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TVG in session, or join us over in our patreon
To talk more about the episode. You can join us
(03:07):
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Pamela and Taquima.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Thank you as well.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I would love for you to start by telling
us who you are and what brings you to this
conversation today. We'll start with you, Pamela.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
My name is Pamela Dias and I'm the mother of
Ashaka aj Owens, who was shot and killed June twenty
twenty three. She was knocking on a neighbor's door who
never opened the door and shot through a locked door,
killing her. And the reason she was knocking on the
(03:50):
door is because it was a long dispute that spanned
over several years. Was harassing my grandchildren, her children, and
it ended deadly as she stood behind stand your ground laws.
And I'm also a proud co founder of this Standing
(04:11):
in the Gap fund.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Doctor Joy is nice to be here with you my
name is Takima Robinson and I am co founder of
the Standing in the Gap Fund with Pamela Das. But
I come to know Pamela and Ajica through my little sister,
who was AJ's best friend and was tapped within hours
after this awful murder occurred to support the family, and
(04:37):
I've been doing that since this occurred in various capacities.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So glad that you both are able to join us today.
So I didn't know that there was a prior connection
between the two of you, So you already knew one
another even before the senseless tragedy. You did not, but
you were connected through you.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You were kids, We were connected. So my sister was
best friends with Aj. I think my sister in Paym
I met, but only sort of through the relationship with
the extension of Aja. I mean I had actually not
known Pam, but I know many of the folks who
will watch The Perfect Neighbor will see what happened on
that faithful night. But the children after that night were
(05:16):
brought to my sister's house, and Pam came directly to
my sister's house from Atlanta when she received the phone call.
So my sister's home and sort of our family etc.
Became kind of ground zero supporting the aftermath of this tragedy.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And at what point and how was the decision made
for you both to kind of come together to tell
AG's story.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So Geeta, who is actually too Kima's sister in law's
slash cousin, I met her after the passing up my daughter,
and initially I believe the film was when Geta approached
me about doing a documentary. There had been some discussions
as to whether or not the shooter would be charged appropriately,
(06:06):
if justice would be served, So initially it was sort
of just documenting the process and trying to ensure that
justice would be served. And then along the way they
determined that there was more to it through the footage
that was obtained through for You requests which TAKEMO will
share more light on that. But Gaeta approached me after
(06:30):
she had put together the film and asked me to
watch it, and it was my decision as to whether
or not to lead or go forward with the film.
And after watching it, I will admit I had to
watch it a couple of times. Initially I was surely
(06:51):
watching through the lens of a grieving mother and grandmother,
and then I watched it again and I really the
significance of the story and how powerful the documentary was,
and that I needed to share with the world what
happened with my daughter and in hopes of making real change,
(07:15):
and so I allowed permission for the film to be
Birth into the World.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, so get the Ganda Bear, who is a director
of this film, is my sister in law. She's married
my brother technically my cousin. And I actually lived in
Jamaica when this occurred, and so when I received the
phone call, in order to get to Florida as quickly
as possible, I ended up flying to New York to
get to Florida. My sister was in distress, she needed support,
(07:45):
She didn't know what to do. I believe that Saturday,
after this incident occurred, Pam, my sister, inquired about AJ's body.
They were told that the police department only worked Monday
through Friday. There was no local news coverage. There was
sort of nothing thing happening. My background has been in advocacy,
social justice, in philanthropy, and so I was able to
(08:05):
sort of access folks like Being Crump, Latasha Brown, Joyread
and others, and so I started leading a lot of
the advocacy work. Pam was in deep mourning, you know,
as we talk about therapy for black girls, she is
just in the sort of pit of hell in terms
of mourning. And so what I could offer was my
(08:27):
network of relationships, and that included my extended family, my brother,
my sister in law who's home. I found myself in
the middle of the night as I was waiting to
change planes to get to Florida, and so in that
wee hour of the morning, we decided to have my
brother come with me and to have a film crew
(08:47):
meet us on the ground, because again at that moment,
this is sort of seventy two hours after this had occurred,
Susan Laurence still had not been arrested, and so we
were afraid if we did not begin to document this,
if we did not begin to unlock doors to the media,
that this would just be another incident where there would
(09:08):
be no justice, right. And so at that point, Nakan
got involved, Gita got involved, I was involved. We were
on the ground. We were there with Ben Crump, who
I connected to the case, and we were documenting the aftermath.
Given the fear that we had about a lack of
justice in a few weeks and we started seeing to
(09:29):
local news reports that showed this body cam footage, and
I think we had an aha that there was more
evidence there that we should probably think about gathering. As
we do in many of these cases, there is a
criminal case than there is civil cases, and in recent
history there have actually been DOJ charges for hate crimes
(09:49):
brought against both Breonna Taylor and George Floyd's murderers. We
were talking to the White House, we were having conversations
with the Biden administration, with Com Harris, with the DOJ,
with Kirsten Clark, who was at the DJ at the time,
and we're pretty confident that they would be interested in
pursuing it, and we wanted to gather as much evidence
(10:11):
to make our case to the DOJ and eventually whatever
civil cases and other things that might come about. So
we actually did a foyer request they call it the
Sunshine Law in Florida to obtain this footage that we
were starting to see pop up on local media, and
we wanted to obtain that as quickly as possible, and
so through Anthony Thomas, who's an extension of Ben Crump
(10:34):
and who has represented the family locally in this matter,
we were able to do a request to receive that information.
Once we received it, we just had a thumb drive
a bunch of footage, right, so all the nine one
one calls, we had interrogation footage. We just had a
whole dump of material and we needed to sort of
sort through it to figure out what it was. So
(10:56):
there was no thought of using it to make a
movie at that point. We were using it as an
advocacy tool. We were hoping if we could share this
with some investigative journalists, right, we could get some folks
to dig into this a little bit further. We could
elevate her case and elevate the matter. And so I
asked my sister in law if she would just cut
(11:17):
the footage and put it in some sort of order
for us, just to see what it was that we
had that we might be able to use from an
advocacy perspective. And once she did that, and once her
team did that, her and the con did it together.
What they really saw was how this thing really played out,
something that we're never often given purview in, which is
(11:38):
what leads up to these cases. We hear about what
happens afterwards. In George Floyd, we saw the incident, but
we didn't see what led up to this. In this case,
we saw two years of evidence that showed two years
of what actually led up to this, and it was
eye opening. We saw systemic failure, We saw Susan actually escalating,
(12:01):
and we just saw unfortunately this matter play out before
its eyes through this footage. And so that is how
it occurred. Once they saw that, they asked Pam's permission
to begin the process of putting it together in a
documentary format, went away for about a year, and then
presented her with a rough cut, always with the intention
to honor Aj and to honor AJ's story and really
(12:25):
vindicate her through this undeniable footage.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Thank you so much for sharing that backstory, and I'm
glad that you and your family had the wherewithal to say, like, oh,
we better like document this, And it feels like that
was likely. I'm guessing a huge part into why we
actually saw justice in AJ's case, right, because there is
so much compelling footage and there is so much evidence
(12:52):
that it felt really hard to kind of deny that
this clearly was something that was escalating. Pam. You mentioned
that you had to kind of sit with did a
couple of times before you felt like okay with it
kind of being released. What was that like for you
to continue to watch it and like, what kinds of
things were you thinking about? Is you made the decision
for it to be turned into a documentary.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It's definitely was a difficult watch. There are so many
layers to the film, from grief to community to justice.
Initial like, as I stated, I was watching through the
lens of a grieving grandmother. I'm watching my daughter laying
(13:34):
on the ground fighting for her life. I'm watching my
grandchildren and sheer distress. I'm watching the community their outrage,
their hurt, their anger. I see moments of joy and
the film where children were at their innocence, being at
(13:57):
their core. Who they are, children, playing, having fun, and
all of that was taken away. And then I have
to ask myself, I don't know why this happened. I
may never know the reason, but it did. And I'm
here at this moment. What do I do next? Where
(14:18):
do I go forward? I had to pray. I had
to hear a word from God, and I believe that
this is His will. A part of me wanted to
be selfish and just hurt and just grieve and just warm.
But there was no way that I could do this.
(14:39):
This was bigger than my hurt, This was bigger than
my grief. This was a real opportunity to make a
difference in this world. This was a real opportunity to
make changes to laws. This was a real opportunity to
bring awareness not only to just gun violence, but to
(15:00):
what racial biases and so on really is like in America.
It's not just someone's recollection or someone's feelings or thoughts.
You see it in the film. It's undeniable. And I
did not want America or the world to become numb
(15:24):
to violence, to another black person being murdered. It's just
not okay. We have seen it over and over again.
And this was my opportunity to share our story, our
pain and our grief and to make real change. So
(15:44):
I had to. There was no choice. It needed to
be done. And that's the reason why I said, let's
do this.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And they came in. There is such a responsibility, I'm
sure you know and your family knows around sharing stories
like this, especially when the you know, when a j's
family is involved, there are minor children involved, can you
talk about maybe some of the decision making in like
what that feels like the responsibility of telling this story
fairly and in a way that actually honors Aj.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, I would say, first and foremost it felt like
a need to get permission, and so I think it's
always really important that we saw Pam's permission. This would
have not seen the light of day unless she permitted it,
and I know that's not how most filmmakers go about
(16:36):
making films, even of this kind. A lot of folks
don't know who's behind this film, and they assume, I've
been told people assume if white folks made this film.
And so for us, this film was it was important
that we saw permission from Pam and on behalf of herself,
in AJ's legacy and her children. We knew this was
(16:57):
really really sensitive material and so that part felt really
really important to us. And honestly, we would not have
gone forward if Pam said this was too much, right,
So it first started in respecting her grief and making
sure that we were permitted to do this, and so
that was important. Pam wasn't involved in the editing of
(17:19):
the film, etc. The film team, the director and our
amazing editor really led that part of it, but they
made a lot of decisions as well. They made decisions
about what to keep in and what to leave out.
A lot of folks struggle to watch this film. I
think what they're struggling with is the level of emotionality
in the film, the heightened emotions. We're not used to
(17:42):
really seeing people in that state of trauma. The film
itself is not I mean outside of the hate speech
and the context of the situation, the film isn't violent.
We don't see a lot of actual violence. But people
are having a really visceral response to the film because
the film is very emotional, and so we knew that
(18:04):
there was a responsibility in that and showing people in
their most vulnerable moments, particularly the children. But it also
to Pam's point, it felt like, in this moment, when
many of us are numb to gun violence, racial violence,
we needed to wake people back up. We needed to
(18:25):
move people from their headspace back into their heart space,
and we needed people to bear witness to the impact
gun violence, the impact of racial violence, and you have
to deal with that. You have to face that in
this movie through the emotions and the trauma of the
children in the neighborhood as you see it playing out.
(18:45):
So that felt like a responsibility. I think the last
part for us that feels like a responsibility is we
didn't make this for entertainment. This was never meant to
be entertainment. We know this has been Netflix's True Crime,
and we are proud of the numbers and the people
watching it around the world, But we actually made this
to make a difference. You know, I always talk about
(19:07):
Pam in the same lineage of Animi Till, of the
same kind of decision that Emmett Till's mother made to
not only you know, have a public funeral, but to
have an open casket and invite the media to see
what had happened to her child. And without those images,
(19:27):
we may not have seen some of the breakthroughs in
the civil rights movement. And so we know this courage
and we know this bravery, and we've seen it in
our history, and so it felt like that same kind
of responsibility, and again the same need to seek that
level of permission from those who were most impacted by this,
(19:48):
Pam and and the children. The other part of the
responsibility that I've always felt is to make sure that
outside of, you know, making a movie. We made sure
that the children were as whole as we could as
we could make them right. And so Aj was the
primary breadwinner for her children, and so making sure that
(20:10):
through our work and through our efforts, through standing in
the Gap, you know, we've been able to provide her
family with some resources to continue to support the kids financially.
So the responsibility has always been about supporting her family
and through that, how do we support other families impacted
by a racial violence. The responsibility has always been about
(20:32):
seeking permission from those most impacted by this and making
sure that this effort was blessed by pam and that
it served AJ's family, and it served her legacy and
shared the truth of what happened with the world and
really vindicated a black woman in many ways we don't
normally get to be vindicated. And so those were I
(20:54):
think the responsibilities that we were holding not just to
create entertainment, but to try to change hearts and minds
and hopefully try to change policy.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
More from our conversation after the break, Pamela, can you
talk about what the healing process has been like for
you and the children and how you felt maybe the
release of the film has maybe helped your healing process
(21:28):
or what role has it played.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
We are not completely healed. It is ongoing, and I
will say that the children are very resilient. They've taught
me so much about grief and about courage and about openness.
We share a lot of stories, a lot of memories,
(21:50):
past memories. I think that helps us a lot in
our grief and our healing process, and which our grief
is definitely linear. Our grief, it's up and down like
a roller coaster. We have good days and we have
bad days. We have good moments and bad moments. It's ongoing,
(22:11):
but it's sharing those moments, and each one of us
are healing. Looks a little differently. For one of us,
it may be talking about the past memories. For another
it may be just just quiet alone in our own thoughts.
But definitely sharing the story and the film with the
(22:35):
world has been very therapeutic. Like I said, it is
a hard watch, but it's what comes out of it.
It's knowing that I'm impacting lives that hopefully the changes
that come about. No other family has to endure what
(22:56):
we went through when Anshaka, when she was knocking at
the door, which is how she lost her life. She
wasn't just knocking on the door for Israel or her
own children. She was knocking on the door for all
children of color. She didn't know it at the time.
(23:17):
She was saying that not only does my children's lives matter,
but all children of color matter. And so she was
brave enough to do that. This is the least that
I could do. It can be very emotional, but I
gained my strength from my daughter. She stood up for
(23:37):
what was right, and I firmly believe that sharing the
story is what's right, and that's what helps me with
my grieving and my healing process.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Thank you so much for sharing that, Pam. I'm wondering
where you found support. You know, a lot of people
talk about after a tragedy there's a lot of support
kind of in the immediate aftermath, within a couple of months,
like that phone stops ringing, people are not stopping by.
What does your support system look like to support your healing?
So yes, so it does subside. People have to go
(24:10):
on with their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Sometimes I say I have separation anxiety. When we all
come together and we all part and go our separate ways.
It's hard, but I still know that they're there, although
they may not be physically in my space on a
daily basis. Most are just a phone call away, some
(24:31):
are actually here locally, but I know that they care
and they love us and that they support us. So
that helps. But most of all, it's my faith that
gets me through prayer and then also counseling. Counseling has
(24:52):
definitely helped, both with myself and the children. That's an open,
safe space where we can talk about out anything and everything,
things that we may not necessarily feel comfortable talking with
our loved ones. And so therapy has definitely been a
big part of my healing process. And I just draw
(25:16):
on my inner spirit, my inner strength, and I just
keep rooted in my community, in my prayer and therapy
and just knowing that this is just one day at
a time, that it's not going to happen overnight.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Thinking. You mentioned that some of the response that you've
gotten from the film is that people don't necessarily know
who's behind it. They're confused. But is there anything that
has been surprising to you about like the public's response
to the film.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I think the fact that folks may not have known
who made the film and watched it on Netflix and
made assumptions about who makes documentary about subjects like that.
I was actually surprised when that inquiry came, and I
thought it was important that people knew the backstory behind
(26:10):
the film. It made me more resolved to make sure
we shared this part of it because that particularly in
our community, in black community, I think the intent behind
this film matters to people. Right some folks commented that
they felt like there was a trauma porn or an exploitation.
I think those fears for our community are always pretty relevant,
(26:32):
and so understanding who made the film and what was
behind it was really important. So that was a surprise
to me, and I think something that is important to
us to sort of share the genesis and the impetus
behind this. Right again, we did not make this for entertainment.
We made this with permission. We made this in an
(26:52):
honor of AJ so that was important. It's a hard
film to watch. It's a really really hard film to watch,
and there are so many folks in our community, especially
post George Floyd, who just don't have the tolerance for
any more black trauma. And so, you know, we definitely
(27:14):
felt that in real time. We did not feel like
we got the media coverage or the media response from
our community when this happened. Some people are just hearing
about Aja's story through this film, so I'm excited. I'm
happy for that, But I think it does say something
about our tolerance level to consume this type of material,
(27:35):
and so I think that that was also maybe not
surprising because we were living it, but it was tough.
And I'm glad that we've been able to be on
platforms like this or share more of the intention and
backstory and other spaces to have richer conversations around kind
of what we're up to, what the intentions were. And
(27:57):
also too, after people experienced this, people aren't the same.
They're not the same as they were both ninety minutes before,
and so people are really wrestling with a lot of
emotions that come up. I feel like when I tell
people to watch this film, I always tell them to
watch it in community and create space for yourself to
talk about it afterwards. We know there are a lot
(28:19):
of people in our community who have experienced gun violence,
whether directly or indirectly. A lot of folks in our
community who watch this and are triggered and sort of
re traumatized because of really relevant lived experiences, and so
I think a lot about audience care and making sure
(28:39):
the folks viewing this also know that we see them
and we know this can bring up a lot, And
so there's a back to the responsibility question. I think
there's a bit of a responsibility that we feel. We've
offered a lot of opportunities to have talkbacks, We've offered
a guide for people to watch this in community with
some questions, the help process that we work with mental
(29:02):
health professionals to help us create. And so maybe not surprise,
but definitely felt overwhelmed after this came out with how
audiences were processing it in a responsibility to give them
some resources.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Pamela, is there something you'd add there, anything that has
surprised you about the response.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I think that when people are watching the film, they
are watching the film like I did, initially from a
space of emotion, and as Takima said, you know, they're
not the same as they were ninety minutes prior to
watching the film. I think when they go into it,
(29:46):
they may be thinking of looking at it as a
true crime, but I don't think they understand what they're
about to embark on prior to watching the film, and
then once they do watch the film, I think their
emotions consume them. So in some ways, some viewers may
(30:09):
not fully understand why a mother or a grandmother would
subject putting this type of film out and usually because
again they're watching through the lens as I did, of emotion.
But once you sit with it and if you really
kind of dissect it and understand, as Tekima said, it's
(30:31):
not meant for entertainment, although it has done tremendous and
we are truly grateful for the response and their viewership,
but it really is meant to shed light on the
issues that concern our communities, especially people of color. It's
(30:52):
meant to provide education. It's meant to teach us what
gun or laws, the effect it has when it's placed
in the wrong hands. It's meant to teach us what
stands your grounds, laws do, the deadly effect it has,
(31:13):
how it can be weaponized. It's a teachable moment. It's
beyond entertainment. It's beyond grief. It's beyond our own personal emotion.
It's something that is needed to be shared with the world,
and it's to bring us back to community, to bring
(31:36):
us back to being what a perfect neighbor is meant
to be.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
More from our conversation after the break, have there been
any changes or kind of new legislation related to standard laws?
Maybe as a result of the documentary coming out that
(32:04):
you all are aware of.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So there are no The movie came out in October,
so we haven't gotten to legislative session. Most legislative sessions
will be this spring. But there have been some recent
amendments to stay in your ground law, which exists in
thirty eight states. This is not just a Florida problem.
This exists in thirty eight states in some form or fashion.
(32:29):
We've seen some progress in states like Georgia, Pennsylvania, Minnesota
recently where folks are beginning to chip away at the law.
Most states already have self defense laws which we think
are pretty sufficient, and we actually don't need a stay
in your ground law. What's interesting about staying your ground,
just to sort of give a little kind of tibbot
(32:52):
of education to the audience, is the legislation was originally
drafted by the NRA, which probably doesn't surprise anyone, but
it was actually done in collaboration with the state legislator
from Marion County, from Okalla, where this incident occurs, so
it was drafted, it is from Okalla, it was created
(33:14):
in this place, and so AJ's case is a full
circle moment. Most of us know stand your Ground from
Trayvon Martin and I believe what was that twenty twelve,
twenty eleven, but we don't know that it was written
right here in Okalla and in Marion County by the
legislator who represented this place up until a year ago.
(33:35):
So it's legacy begins here and we hope it's legacy
ends here with AJ's case law. Her case was decided
by an all white jury and unanimously they convicted their peer,
Susan Lawrence, to manslaughter with the sentence of twenty five years,
(33:56):
and so her case law is extremely significant. Through the
film and through the impact campaign that we are producing,
we hope to actually use the film to make changes
in states that are ready, and so we're going to
be focusing on those states Pennsylvania, Georgia, Minnesota, where there's
already been some progress, where their existing coalitions too are
(34:18):
doing that work, and we also want to do some
work in Florida. But We're also open to working in
the other thirty four states that have this law on
the books because we think this is the type of film,
This is type of art that really lays clear the
issues around staying your ground and how folks can weaponize it.
(34:40):
And staying your ground is an extension of white vigilantiism, right.
It comes from that same ethos and from that same history,
and so we know it comes with a racial undertone
and has actually had that same kind of impact since
it was enacted in the early two thousands. So our
intent are to continue to leverage this film and make
(35:04):
it a teaching tool around staying and ground reform.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So you both have referenced Standing in the Gap, the
organization that you have co founded. Can you tell us
more about the organization and the work that you plan
to do.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Standing in the Gap was co founded by myself and
Takima Robinson. Basically, it was again birth when we lost
my Ajaka, when I lost my daughter, but it's meant
to support families very much like my family. When I
lost Ajaka, I didn't have the resources. She was a
(35:42):
single mom, and I was now left with the burden
of caring for children financially emotionally, physically, everything that comes
with raising four young children, educating them and so on. Well, one,
I didn't have the financial need. Also, we needed therapy.
(36:06):
Most therapists do not accept insurance. We had housing concerns,
I had to relocate from Atlanta, Georgia. I left my
job and I relocated to Okella, Florida. So there is
so much that went into with losing my daughter. And
then we had to ensure that justice would be served.
(36:28):
So that meant advocacy work, organizing boots on the ground.
So all of these require financial resources which I personally
wasn't prepared. And then also so standing in the gap
will help support initiatives such as those, but also it
(36:49):
has an advocacy piece as well, just as Techema educated
us on standiar ground laws. That's one of the things
that we want to do is to work at chipping
away at these laws because we see what happens when
it's weaponized and so on. So staying in the gap
(37:11):
is really a lifeline to families who are impacted by
racial gun violence. And it was it was born out
of the death of my daughter, Ashaka Owens, and I'll
let it chem up further go into and death. More
about standing in your gap.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, everything Pam said, she said it perfectly. Those are
our intentions. It's just sup poor families impacted by racial violence,
inspired by Ajaka's passing and all the things that we
learned and endured, making sure that those families have access
to resources and don't have to bear the financial financial
(37:55):
burden on top of already dealing with a nightmare. You know,
you shouldn't be having to put up GoFundMe accounts and
trying to worry about the finances for funeralizing a loved
one under these circumstances. And honestly, our communities need mechanisms
that are not extractive in order to be able to
(38:19):
quickly have an infrastructure to support folks like this, and
we just don't have that. So what does mutual aid
in twenty twenty five look like? How can we organize
ourselves better to make sure we can move resources quickly?
You know, Pam was talking about the part of standing
in the gap that, in addition to supporting families, supports
(38:42):
organizers on the ground. You know, organizing takes money, it
takes resources, and it doesn't have a grant cycle timeline.
We had thirty days to file charges against Susan Lawrence.
There were thirty days, so there was a tight timeline.
Most foundations and things like that, they can't move money
that quickly, and so we learned a lot about what
(39:05):
folks deal with in this circumstances. Through this circumstance, and
we were trying to solve our problem, but then realize, right,
we could actually stand something up that could support other
folks so they don't have to face these problems by themselves.
So it's meant to be an enduring resource. Our highest
(39:25):
hope and highest dream is we can endow it so
that it exists into perpetuity. And the resources again are twofold.
One to support families directly for expenses related to stuff
like security, which we had to have, funeral expenses, mental health,
et cetera. And the on the other side, be able
(39:46):
to support organizers and advocate to get out in the
streets and often fight for justice, which also takes resources.
And then lastly to be able to leverage these opportunities
for some kind of systemic or power change.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Pamela, what do you hope that people who watch the
film take away not only from the film related to
AJ's life, not just the way that she died.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I want people to take away community responsibility as you
could have lost her life standing up for her babies
and in essence standing up for all of our babies.
She carried the message that every child of color deserves respect,
(40:33):
deserves dignity, deserves to be a child, free to be
a child. She bore the burden of losing her life
so that we could have a better life. Because had
she not lost her life, we wouldn't be here today.
We wouldn't be on your platform, we wouldn't probably the
(40:55):
perfect neighbor would not have been made. The world will
continue on with more violence, more deaths, more racism, more biases.
It would just be a never ending cycle. But she
was a black mother who stood up for what was right.
She lost her life for what was right, and so
(41:19):
now in turn, we must stand up for her and
all of those who are to come behind her and
stand up for what was right. She was more than
just a single mother. She was more than a friend,
a sister, a daughter. She is whom is going to
(41:39):
make a change in the world. There's a funny story
that I often share because she was a single mother
and she wanted to do more. She wanted better for
her children's lives. She carried the burden of being the
sole breadwinner. So we would often sit on the phone
and she would run all these different entrepreneurial ideas by me,
(42:05):
and I was like, I don't know. I never was
in full support of some of her ideas. But she
was adamant that she was going to be successful, and
she was adamant to the point that the world would
know her name. She emphatically told me that the world
was going to know her name. I'm sure she thought that,
(42:29):
you know, her business idea was going to be that successful.
But unfortunately she didn't live to birth any of her
entrepreneurial ideas to see them come into fruition. But I
believe that it was by design, God's ordinance that she
lost her life in this manner. And this is the
(42:52):
way that the world would know her name. This is
the way that the world would remember her as someone
who stood up for what was right, who was compassionate,
who had a heart of gold, and she's going to
make a real change. Her legacy will live on through
(43:14):
her children. Her legacy will live on through the perfect neighbor,
her legacy will live on through the Standing and the
gal Fund. And I truly believe that Ashaka, a single
black mother from Okella, Florida, not only will the world
(43:36):
know her name, but the world will remember her for
the impact, for the blueprint, for the footprints that she
left behind.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Thank you so much for that, Pima Tikima. Can you
close us up by letting us know where we can
stay connected to the work that you all are doing
and Standing in the Gap and kind of stay connected
to what's happening with the film.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Absolutely? Absolutely. There is a couple of ways in which
people can stay connected. There is a film website called
The Perfect Neighbor Film. You can find that online and
then you can find Standing in the Gap Org Standing
Indegapfund dot org. Make sure you put in Standing in
the Gap fund dot org. You can also follow us
(44:19):
at Standing in the Gap Fund on all social platforms.
We are inviting people to stand in the Gap with us,
and I really really believe that this must be a
for us, by us movement. This debt has to be
foubou all day and so we are inviting people to
support our work. We have an opportunity where people can
(44:41):
become a sustanding donor, and so they can learn more
on our website about how you can also support families
impacted by racial violence. You can sign up for our newsletter,
and The Perfect Neighbor is our second arts partnerships. We
launched this work at art Vaso and so a big
part of Standing in the Gap is using culture as
(45:01):
a medium for this message. And so please go find us,
sign up for our newsletter, learn about all the ways
that you can get involved, and you look out for
more things that we will be launching with artists in
the future. Because we believe culture is part of our
healing process. We believe culture is healing, and we believe
(45:22):
that when we create powerful cultural products like The Perfect Neighbor,
we can also elicit change in the world. So if
folks are interested in that work and being part of
our movement and being part of this mutual aid work
that we are doing to stand with families and communities,
they can learn all about that at Standing indegapfund dot org.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Thank you so much for that. We will make sure
to include all of that in our show notes. I
really appreciate both of you spending some time with us today.
Thank you, Thank you, Doctor Joy Thank you grateful that
Pamela and Takima took the time to share AJ's story
for today's episode. To learn more about them, the Perfect
(46:06):
Neighbor and the work they're doing with the Standing in
the Gap Fund, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four forty two.
Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail
with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you
have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a
message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls
and let us know what's on your mind. We just
(46:28):
might answer it on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to
follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and
come on and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
(46:51):
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichuvu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again. This week. I look forward
to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take
it care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four forty two the Therapy
for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Before we get started,
just a brief content note that there are mentions of
(01:17):
racial violence in today's episode. If you have sensitivities around
this subject, I urge you to take breaks as needed
or step away if it becomes too difficult. In twenty
twenty three, the murder of Agica aj Owens shook the country,
another Black mother taken too soon in a moment of
senseless and unnecessary violence. In the years since, AJ's story,
(01:40):
as told on Netflix's The Perfect Neighbor, has prompted a
larger conversation around race, fear, stand your ground laws, and
the everyday realities and dangers Black families navigate in America
and in their communities. But Aj was more than a
victim of racial violence. She was a woman whose life
was filled with love, ambition, and unapologetic hope for her
(02:02):
children and her future. Today, I'm pleased to be joined
by two women who are integral to carrying AJ's story
forward with courage and purpose. Pamela Diaz, AJ's mother and
co founder of the Standing in the Gap Fund, has
turned unfathomable grief into a mission to protect families to
face race based violence and its aftermath. Here with Pamela
(02:26):
is her co founder, Sakima Robinson, producer and advocate for
racial justice, who helped bring AJ's story to the masses.
In this conversation, we explore how their relationship formed, what
it means to tell a story shaped by grief, and
how storytelling, advocacy, and memory can become pathways to collective healing.
(02:46):
We talk about community justice and the ongoing fight to
ensure that Aj and so many others like her are
not forgotten. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TVG in session, or join us over in our patreon
To talk more about the episode. You can join us
(03:07):
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Pamela and Taquima.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Thank you as well.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I would love for you to start by telling
us who you are and what brings you to this
conversation today. We'll start with you, Pamela.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
My name is Pamela Dias and I'm the mother of
Ashaka aj Owens, who was shot and killed June twenty
twenty three. She was knocking on a neighbor's door who
never opened the door and shot through a locked door,
killing her. And the reason she was knocking on the
(03:50):
door is because it was a long dispute that spanned
over several years. Was harassing my grandchildren, her children, and
it ended deadly as she stood behind stand your ground laws.
And I'm also a proud co founder of this Standing
(04:11):
in the Gap fund.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Doctor Joy is nice to be here with you my
name is Takima Robinson and I am co founder of
the Standing in the Gap Fund with Pamela Das. But
I come to know Pamela and Ajica through my little sister,
who was AJ's best friend and was tapped within hours
after this awful murder occurred to support the family, and
(04:37):
I've been doing that since this occurred in various capacities.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So glad that you both are able to join us today.
So I didn't know that there was a prior connection
between the two of you, So you already knew one
another even before the senseless tragedy. You did not, but
you were connected through you.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You were kids, We were connected. So my sister was
best friends with Aj. I think my sister in Paym
I met, but only sort of through the relationship with
the extension of Aja. I mean I had actually not
known Pam, but I know many of the folks who
will watch The Perfect Neighbor will see what happened on
that faithful night. But the children after that night were
(05:16):
brought to my sister's house, and Pam came directly to
my sister's house from Atlanta when she received the phone call.
So my sister's home and sort of our family etc.
Became kind of ground zero supporting the aftermath of this tragedy.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And at what point and how was the decision made
for you both to kind of come together to tell
AG's story.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
So Geeta, who is actually too Kima's sister in law's
slash cousin, I met her after the passing up my daughter,
and initially I believe the film was when Geta approached
me about doing a documentary. There had been some discussions
as to whether or not the shooter would be charged appropriately,
(06:06):
if justice would be served, So initially it was sort
of just documenting the process and trying to ensure that
justice would be served. And then along the way they
determined that there was more to it through the footage
that was obtained through for You requests which TAKEMO will
share more light on that. But Gaeta approached me after
(06:30):
she had put together the film and asked me to
watch it, and it was my decision as to whether
or not to lead or go forward with the film.
And after watching it, I will admit I had to
watch it a couple of times. Initially I was surely
(06:51):
watching through the lens of a grieving mother and grandmother,
and then I watched it again and I really the
significance of the story and how powerful the documentary was,
and that I needed to share with the world what
happened with my daughter and in hopes of making real change,
(07:15):
and so I allowed permission for the film to be
Birth into the World.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, so get the Ganda Bear, who is a director
of this film, is my sister in law. She's married
my brother technically my cousin. And I actually lived in
Jamaica when this occurred, and so when I received the
phone call, in order to get to Florida as quickly
as possible, I ended up flying to New York to
get to Florida. My sister was in distress, she needed support,
(07:45):
She didn't know what to do. I believe that Saturday,
after this incident occurred, Pam, my sister, inquired about AJ's body.
They were told that the police department only worked Monday
through Friday. There was no local news coverage. There was
sort of nothing thing happening. My background has been in advocacy,
social justice, in philanthropy, and so I was able to
(08:05):
sort of access folks like Being Crump, Latasha Brown, Joyread
and others, and so I started leading a lot of
the advocacy work. Pam was in deep mourning, you know,
as we talk about therapy for black girls, she is
just in the sort of pit of hell in terms
of mourning. And so what I could offer was my
(08:27):
network of relationships, and that included my extended family, my brother,
my sister in law who's home. I found myself in
the middle of the night as I was waiting to
change planes to get to Florida, and so in that
wee hour of the morning, we decided to have my
brother come with me and to have a film crew
(08:47):
meet us on the ground, because again at that moment,
this is sort of seventy two hours after this had occurred,
Susan Laurence still had not been arrested, and so we
were afraid if we did not begin to document this,
if we did not begin to unlock doors to the media,
that this would just be another incident where there would
(09:08):
be no justice, right. And so at that point, Nakan
got involved, Gita got involved, I was involved. We were
on the ground. We were there with Ben Crump, who
I connected to the case, and we were documenting the aftermath.
Given the fear that we had about a lack of
justice in a few weeks and we started seeing to
(09:29):
local news reports that showed this body cam footage, and
I think we had an aha that there was more
evidence there that we should probably think about gathering. As
we do in many of these cases, there is a
criminal case than there is civil cases, and in recent
history there have actually been DOJ charges for hate crimes
(09:49):
brought against both Breonna Taylor and George Floyd's murderers. We
were talking to the White House, we were having conversations
with the Biden administration, with Com Harris, with the DOJ,
with Kirsten Clark, who was at the DJ at the time,
and we're pretty confident that they would be interested in
pursuing it, and we wanted to gather as much evidence
(10:11):
to make our case to the DOJ and eventually whatever
civil cases and other things that might come about. So
we actually did a foyer request they call it the
Sunshine Law in Florida to obtain this footage that we
were starting to see pop up on local media, and
we wanted to obtain that as quickly as possible, and
so through Anthony Thomas, who's an extension of Ben Crump
(10:34):
and who has represented the family locally in this matter,
we were able to do a request to receive that information.
Once we received it, we just had a thumb drive
a bunch of footage, right, so all the nine one
one calls, we had interrogation footage. We just had a
whole dump of material and we needed to sort of
sort through it to figure out what it was. So
(10:56):
there was no thought of using it to make a
movie at that point. We were using it as an
advocacy tool. We were hoping if we could share this
with some investigative journalists, right, we could get some folks
to dig into this a little bit further. We could
elevate her case and elevate the matter. And so I
asked my sister in law if she would just cut
(11:17):
the footage and put it in some sort of order
for us, just to see what it was that we
had that we might be able to use from an
advocacy perspective. And once she did that, and once her
team did that, her and the con did it together.
What they really saw was how this thing really played out,
something that we're never often given purview in, which is
(11:38):
what leads up to these cases. We hear about what
happens afterwards. In George Floyd, we saw the incident, but
we didn't see what led up to this. In this case,
we saw two years of evidence that showed two years
of what actually led up to this, and it was
eye opening. We saw systemic failure, We saw Susan actually escalating,
(12:01):
and we just saw unfortunately this matter play out before
its eyes through this footage. And so that is how
it occurred. Once they saw that, they asked Pam's permission
to begin the process of putting it together in a
documentary format, went away for about a year, and then
presented her with a rough cut, always with the intention
to honor Aj and to honor AJ's story and really
(12:25):
vindicate her through this undeniable footage.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Thank you so much for sharing that backstory, and I'm
glad that you and your family had the wherewithal to say, like, oh,
we better like document this, And it feels like that
was likely. I'm guessing a huge part into why we
actually saw justice in AJ's case, right, because there is
so much compelling footage and there is so much evidence
(12:52):
that it felt really hard to kind of deny that
this clearly was something that was escalating. Pam. You mentioned
that you had to kind of sit with did a
couple of times before you felt like okay with it
kind of being released. What was that like for you
to continue to watch it and like, what kinds of
things were you thinking about? Is you made the decision
for it to be turned into a documentary.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It's definitely was a difficult watch. There are so many
layers to the film, from grief to community to justice.
Initial like, as I stated, I was watching through the
lens of a grieving grandmother. I'm watching my daughter laying
(13:34):
on the ground fighting for her life. I'm watching my
grandchildren and sheer distress. I'm watching the community their outrage,
their hurt, their anger. I see moments of joy and
the film where children were at their innocence, being at
(13:57):
their core. Who they are, children, playing, having fun, and
all of that was taken away. And then I have
to ask myself, I don't know why this happened. I
may never know the reason, but it did. And I'm
here at this moment. What do I do next? Where
(14:18):
do I go forward? I had to pray. I had
to hear a word from God, and I believe that
this is His will. A part of me wanted to
be selfish and just hurt and just grieve and just warm.
But there was no way that I could do this.
(14:39):
This was bigger than my hurt, This was bigger than
my grief. This was a real opportunity to make a
difference in this world. This was a real opportunity to
make changes to laws. This was a real opportunity to
bring awareness not only to just gun violence, but to
(15:00):
what racial biases and so on really is like in America.
It's not just someone's recollection or someone's feelings or thoughts.
You see it in the film. It's undeniable. And I
did not want America or the world to become numb
(15:24):
to violence, to another black person being murdered. It's just
not okay. We have seen it over and over again.
And this was my opportunity to share our story, our
pain and our grief and to make real change. So
(15:44):
I had to. There was no choice. It needed to
be done. And that's the reason why I said, let's
do this.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And they came in. There is such a responsibility, I'm
sure you know and your family knows around sharing stories
like this, especially when the you know, when a j's
family is involved, there are minor children involved, can you
talk about maybe some of the decision making in like
what that feels like the responsibility of telling this story
fairly and in a way that actually honors Aj.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, I would say, first and foremost it felt like
a need to get permission, and so I think it's
always really important that we saw Pam's permission. This would
have not seen the light of day unless she permitted it,
and I know that's not how most filmmakers go about
(16:36):
making films, even of this kind. A lot of folks
don't know who's behind this film, and they assume, I've
been told people assume if white folks made this film.
And so for us, this film was it was important
that we saw permission from Pam and on behalf of herself,
in AJ's legacy and her children. We knew this was
(16:57):
really really sensitive material and so that part felt really
really important to us. And honestly, we would not have
gone forward if Pam said this was too much, right,
So it first started in respecting her grief and making
sure that we were permitted to do this, and so
that was important. Pam wasn't involved in the editing of
(17:19):
the film, etc. The film team, the director and our
amazing editor really led that part of it, but they
made a lot of decisions as well. They made decisions
about what to keep in and what to leave out.
A lot of folks struggle to watch this film. I
think what they're struggling with is the level of emotionality
in the film, the heightened emotions. We're not used to
(17:42):
really seeing people in that state of trauma. The film
itself is not I mean outside of the hate speech
and the context of the situation, the film isn't violent.
We don't see a lot of actual violence. But people
are having a really visceral response to the film because
the film is very emotional, and so we knew that
(18:04):
there was a responsibility in that and showing people in
their most vulnerable moments, particularly the children. But it also
to Pam's point, it felt like, in this moment, when
many of us are numb to gun violence, racial violence,
we needed to wake people back up. We needed to
(18:25):
move people from their headspace back into their heart space,
and we needed people to bear witness to the impact
gun violence, the impact of racial violence, and you have
to deal with that. You have to face that in
this movie through the emotions and the trauma of the
children in the neighborhood as you see it playing out.
(18:45):
So that felt like a responsibility. I think the last
part for us that feels like a responsibility is we
didn't make this for entertainment. This was never meant to
be entertainment. We know this has been Netflix's True Crime,
and we are proud of the numbers and the people
watching it around the world, But we actually made this
to make a difference. You know, I always talk about
(19:07):
Pam in the same lineage of Animi Till, of the
same kind of decision that Emmett Till's mother made to
not only you know, have a public funeral, but to
have an open casket and invite the media to see
what had happened to her child. And without those images,
(19:27):
we may not have seen some of the breakthroughs in
the civil rights movement. And so we know this courage
and we know this bravery, and we've seen it in
our history, and so it felt like that same kind
of responsibility, and again the same need to seek that
level of permission from those who were most impacted by this,
(19:48):
Pam and and the children. The other part of the
responsibility that I've always felt is to make sure that
outside of, you know, making a movie. We made sure
that the children were as whole as we could as
we could make them right. And so Aj was the
primary breadwinner for her children, and so making sure that
(20:10):
through our work and through our efforts, through standing in
the Gap, you know, we've been able to provide her
family with some resources to continue to support the kids financially.
So the responsibility has always been about supporting her family
and through that, how do we support other families impacted
by a racial violence. The responsibility has always been about
(20:32):
seeking permission from those most impacted by this and making
sure that this effort was blessed by pam and that
it served AJ's family, and it served her legacy and
shared the truth of what happened with the world and
really vindicated a black woman in many ways we don't
normally get to be vindicated. And so those were I
(20:54):
think the responsibilities that we were holding not just to
create entertainment, but to try to change hearts and minds
and hopefully try to change policy.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
More from our conversation after the break, Pamela, can you
talk about what the healing process has been like for
you and the children and how you felt maybe the
release of the film has maybe helped your healing process
(21:28):
or what role has it played.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
We are not completely healed. It is ongoing, and I
will say that the children are very resilient. They've taught
me so much about grief and about courage and about openness.
We share a lot of stories, a lot of memories,
(21:50):
past memories. I think that helps us a lot in
our grief and our healing process, and which our grief
is definitely linear. Our grief, it's up and down like
a roller coaster. We have good days and we have
bad days. We have good moments and bad moments. It's ongoing,
(22:11):
but it's sharing those moments, and each one of us
are healing. Looks a little differently. For one of us,
it may be talking about the past memories. For another
it may be just just quiet alone in our own thoughts.
But definitely sharing the story and the film with the
(22:35):
world has been very therapeutic. Like I said, it is
a hard watch, but it's what comes out of it.
It's knowing that I'm impacting lives that hopefully the changes
that come about. No other family has to endure what
(22:56):
we went through when Anshaka, when she was knocking at
the door, which is how she lost her life. She
wasn't just knocking on the door for Israel or her
own children. She was knocking on the door for all
children of color. She didn't know it at the time.
(23:17):
She was saying that not only does my children's lives matter,
but all children of color matter. And so she was
brave enough to do that. This is the least that
I could do. It can be very emotional, but I
gained my strength from my daughter. She stood up for
(23:37):
what was right, and I firmly believe that sharing the
story is what's right, and that's what helps me with
my grieving and my healing process.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Thank you so much for sharing that, Pam. I'm wondering
where you found support. You know, a lot of people
talk about after a tragedy there's a lot of support
kind of in the immediate aftermath, within a couple of months,
like that phone stops ringing, people are not stopping by.
What does your support system look like to support your healing?
So yes, so it does subside. People have to go
(24:10):
on with their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Sometimes I say I have separation anxiety. When we all
come together and we all part and go our separate ways.
It's hard, but I still know that they're there, although
they may not be physically in my space on a
daily basis. Most are just a phone call away, some
(24:31):
are actually here locally, but I know that they care
and they love us and that they support us. So
that helps. But most of all, it's my faith that
gets me through prayer and then also counseling. Counseling has
(24:52):
definitely helped, both with myself and the children. That's an open,
safe space where we can talk about out anything and everything,
things that we may not necessarily feel comfortable talking with
our loved ones. And so therapy has definitely been a
big part of my healing process. And I just draw
(25:16):
on my inner spirit, my inner strength, and I just
keep rooted in my community, in my prayer and therapy
and just knowing that this is just one day at
a time, that it's not going to happen overnight.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Thinking. You mentioned that some of the response that you've
gotten from the film is that people don't necessarily know
who's behind it. They're confused. But is there anything that
has been surprising to you about like the public's response
to the film.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I think the fact that folks may not have known
who made the film and watched it on Netflix and
made assumptions about who makes documentary about subjects like that.
I was actually surprised when that inquiry came, and I
thought it was important that people knew the backstory behind
(26:10):
the film. It made me more resolved to make sure
we shared this part of it because that particularly in
our community, in black community, I think the intent behind
this film matters to people. Right some folks commented that
they felt like there was a trauma porn or an exploitation.
I think those fears for our community are always pretty relevant,
(26:32):
and so understanding who made the film and what was
behind it was really important. So that was a surprise
to me, and I think something that is important to
us to sort of share the genesis and the impetus
behind this. Right again, we did not make this for entertainment.
We made this with permission. We made this in an
(26:52):
honor of AJ so that was important. It's a hard
film to watch. It's a really really hard film to watch,
and there are so many folks in our community, especially
post George Floyd, who just don't have the tolerance for
any more black trauma. And so, you know, we definitely
(27:14):
felt that in real time. We did not feel like
we got the media coverage or the media response from
our community when this happened. Some people are just hearing
about Aja's story through this film, so I'm excited. I'm
happy for that, But I think it does say something
about our tolerance level to consume this type of material,
(27:35):
and so I think that that was also maybe not
surprising because we were living it, but it was tough.
And I'm glad that we've been able to be on
platforms like this or share more of the intention and
backstory and other spaces to have richer conversations around kind
of what we're up to, what the intentions were. And
(27:57):
also too, after people experienced this, people aren't the same.
They're not the same as they were both ninety minutes before,
and so people are really wrestling with a lot of
emotions that come up. I feel like when I tell
people to watch this film, I always tell them to
watch it in community and create space for yourself to
talk about it afterwards. We know there are a lot
(28:19):
of people in our community who have experienced gun violence,
whether directly or indirectly. A lot of folks in our
community who watch this and are triggered and sort of
re traumatized because of really relevant lived experiences, and so
I think a lot about audience care and making sure
(28:39):
the folks viewing this also know that we see them
and we know this can bring up a lot, And
so there's a back to the responsibility question. I think
there's a bit of a responsibility that we feel. We've
offered a lot of opportunities to have talkbacks, We've offered
a guide for people to watch this in community with
some questions, the help process that we work with mental
(29:02):
health professionals to help us create. And so maybe not surprise,
but definitely felt overwhelmed after this came out with how
audiences were processing it in a responsibility to give them
some resources.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Pamela, is there something you'd add there, anything that has
surprised you about the response.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I think that when people are watching the film, they
are watching the film like I did, initially from a
space of emotion, and as Takima said, you know, they're
not the same as they were ninety minutes prior to
watching the film. I think when they go into it,
(29:46):
they may be thinking of looking at it as a
true crime, but I don't think they understand what they're
about to embark on prior to watching the film, and
then once they do watch the film, I think their
emotions consume them. So in some ways, some viewers may
(30:09):
not fully understand why a mother or a grandmother would
subject putting this type of film out and usually because
again they're watching through the lens as I did, of emotion.
But once you sit with it and if you really
kind of dissect it and understand, as Tekima said, it's
(30:31):
not meant for entertainment, although it has done tremendous and
we are truly grateful for the response and their viewership,
but it really is meant to shed light on the
issues that concern our communities, especially people of color. It's
(30:52):
meant to provide education. It's meant to teach us what
gun or laws, the effect it has when it's placed
in the wrong hands. It's meant to teach us what
stands your grounds, laws do, the deadly effect it has,
(31:13):
how it can be weaponized. It's a teachable moment. It's
beyond entertainment. It's beyond grief. It's beyond our own personal emotion.
It's something that is needed to be shared with the world,
and it's to bring us back to community, to bring
(31:36):
us back to being what a perfect neighbor is meant
to be.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
More from our conversation after the break, have there been
any changes or kind of new legislation related to standard laws?
Maybe as a result of the documentary coming out that
(32:04):
you all are aware of.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So there are no The movie came out in October,
so we haven't gotten to legislative session. Most legislative sessions
will be this spring. But there have been some recent
amendments to stay in your ground law, which exists in
thirty eight states. This is not just a Florida problem.
This exists in thirty eight states in some form or fashion.
(32:29):
We've seen some progress in states like Georgia, Pennsylvania, Minnesota
recently where folks are beginning to chip away at the law.
Most states already have self defense laws which we think
are pretty sufficient, and we actually don't need a stay
in your ground law. What's interesting about staying your ground,
just to sort of give a little kind of tibbot
(32:52):
of education to the audience, is the legislation was originally
drafted by the NRA, which probably doesn't surprise anyone, but
it was actually done in collaboration with the state legislator
from Marion County, from Okalla, where this incident occurs, so
it was drafted, it is from Okalla, it was created
(33:14):
in this place, and so AJ's case is a full
circle moment. Most of us know stand your Ground from
Trayvon Martin and I believe what was that twenty twelve,
twenty eleven, but we don't know that it was written
right here in Okalla and in Marion County by the
legislator who represented this place up until a year ago.
(33:35):
So it's legacy begins here and we hope it's legacy
ends here with AJ's case law. Her case was decided
by an all white jury and unanimously they convicted their peer,
Susan Lawrence, to manslaughter with the sentence of twenty five years,
(33:56):
and so her case law is extremely significant. Through the
film and through the impact campaign that we are producing,
we hope to actually use the film to make changes
in states that are ready, and so we're going to
be focusing on those states Pennsylvania, Georgia, Minnesota, where there's
already been some progress, where their existing coalitions too are
(34:18):
doing that work, and we also want to do some
work in Florida. But We're also open to working in
the other thirty four states that have this law on
the books because we think this is the type of film,
This is type of art that really lays clear the
issues around staying your ground and how folks can weaponize it.
(34:40):
And staying your ground is an extension of white vigilantiism, right.
It comes from that same ethos and from that same history,
and so we know it comes with a racial undertone
and has actually had that same kind of impact since
it was enacted in the early two thousands. So our
intent are to continue to leverage this film and make
(35:04):
it a teaching tool around staying and ground reform.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So you both have referenced Standing in the Gap, the
organization that you have co founded. Can you tell us
more about the organization and the work that you plan
to do.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Standing in the Gap was co founded by myself and
Takima Robinson. Basically, it was again birth when we lost
my Ajaka, when I lost my daughter, but it's meant
to support families very much like my family. When I
lost Ajaka, I didn't have the resources. She was a
(35:42):
single mom, and I was now left with the burden
of caring for children financially emotionally, physically, everything that comes
with raising four young children, educating them and so on. Well, one,
I didn't have the financial need. Also, we needed therapy.
(36:06):
Most therapists do not accept insurance. We had housing concerns,
I had to relocate from Atlanta, Georgia. I left my
job and I relocated to Okella, Florida. So there is
so much that went into with losing my daughter. And
then we had to ensure that justice would be served.
(36:28):
So that meant advocacy work, organizing boots on the ground.
So all of these require financial resources which I personally
wasn't prepared. And then also so standing in the gap
will help support initiatives such as those, but also it
(36:49):
has an advocacy piece as well, just as Techema educated
us on standiar ground laws. That's one of the things
that we want to do is to work at chipping
away at these laws because we see what happens when
it's weaponized and so on. So staying in the gap
(37:11):
is really a lifeline to families who are impacted by
racial gun violence. And it was it was born out
of the death of my daughter, Ashaka Owens, and I'll
let it chem up further go into and death. More
about standing in your gap.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, everything Pam said, she said it perfectly. Those are
our intentions. It's just sup poor families impacted by racial violence,
inspired by Ajaka's passing and all the things that we
learned and endured, making sure that those families have access
to resources and don't have to bear the financial financial
(37:55):
burden on top of already dealing with a nightmare. You know,
you shouldn't be having to put up GoFundMe accounts and
trying to worry about the finances for funeralizing a loved
one under these circumstances. And honestly, our communities need mechanisms
that are not extractive in order to be able to
(38:19):
quickly have an infrastructure to support folks like this, and
we just don't have that. So what does mutual aid
in twenty twenty five look like? How can we organize
ourselves better to make sure we can move resources quickly?
You know, Pam was talking about the part of standing
in the gap that, in addition to supporting families, supports
(38:42):
organizers on the ground. You know, organizing takes money, it
takes resources, and it doesn't have a grant cycle timeline.
We had thirty days to file charges against Susan Lawrence.
There were thirty days, so there was a tight timeline.
Most foundations and things like that, they can't move money
that quickly, and so we learned a lot about what
(39:05):
folks deal with in this circumstances. Through this circumstance, and
we were trying to solve our problem, but then realize, right,
we could actually stand something up that could support other
folks so they don't have to face these problems by themselves.
So it's meant to be an enduring resource. Our highest
(39:25):
hope and highest dream is we can endow it so
that it exists into perpetuity. And the resources again are twofold.
One to support families directly for expenses related to stuff
like security, which we had to have, funeral expenses, mental health,
et cetera. And the on the other side, be able
(39:46):
to support organizers and advocate to get out in the
streets and often fight for justice, which also takes resources.
And then lastly to be able to leverage these opportunities
for some kind of systemic or power change.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Pamela, what do you hope that people who watch the
film take away not only from the film related to
AJ's life, not just the way that she died.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I want people to take away community responsibility as you
could have lost her life standing up for her babies
and in essence standing up for all of our babies.
She carried the message that every child of color deserves respect,
(40:33):
deserves dignity, deserves to be a child, free to be
a child. She bore the burden of losing her life
so that we could have a better life. Because had
she not lost her life, we wouldn't be here today.
We wouldn't be on your platform, we wouldn't probably the
(40:55):
perfect neighbor would not have been made. The world will
continue on with more violence, more deaths, more racism, more biases.
It would just be a never ending cycle. But she
was a black mother who stood up for what was right.
She lost her life for what was right, and so
(41:19):
now in turn, we must stand up for her and
all of those who are to come behind her and
stand up for what was right. She was more than
just a single mother. She was more than a friend,
a sister, a daughter. She is whom is going to
(41:39):
make a change in the world. There's a funny story
that I often share because she was a single mother
and she wanted to do more. She wanted better for
her children's lives. She carried the burden of being the
sole breadwinner. So we would often sit on the phone
and she would run all these different entrepreneurial ideas by me,
(42:05):
and I was like, I don't know. I never was
in full support of some of her ideas. But she
was adamant that she was going to be successful, and
she was adamant to the point that the world would
know her name. She emphatically told me that the world
was going to know her name. I'm sure she thought that,
(42:29):
you know, her business idea was going to be that successful.
But unfortunately she didn't live to birth any of her
entrepreneurial ideas to see them come into fruition. But I
believe that it was by design, God's ordinance that she
lost her life in this manner. And this is the
(42:52):
way that the world would know her name. This is
the way that the world would remember her as someone
who stood up for what was right, who was compassionate,
who had a heart of gold, and she's going to
make a real change. Her legacy will live on through
(43:14):
her children. Her legacy will live on through the perfect neighbor,
her legacy will live on through the Standing and the
gal Fund. And I truly believe that Ashaka, a single
black mother from Okella, Florida, not only will the world
(43:36):
know her name, but the world will remember her for
the impact, for the blueprint, for the footprints that she
left behind.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Thank you so much for that, Pima Tikima. Can you
close us up by letting us know where we can
stay connected to the work that you all are doing
and Standing in the Gap and kind of stay connected
to what's happening with the film.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Absolutely? Absolutely. There is a couple of ways in which
people can stay connected. There is a film website called
The Perfect Neighbor Film. You can find that online and
then you can find Standing in the Gap Org Standing
Indegapfund dot org. Make sure you put in Standing in
the Gap fund dot org. You can also follow us
(44:19):
at Standing in the Gap Fund on all social platforms.
We are inviting people to stand in the Gap with us,
and I really really believe that this must be a
for us, by us movement. This debt has to be
foubou all day and so we are inviting people to
support our work. We have an opportunity where people can
(44:41):
become a sustanding donor, and so they can learn more
on our website about how you can also support families
impacted by racial violence. You can sign up for our newsletter,
and The Perfect Neighbor is our second arts partnerships. We
launched this work at art Vaso and so a big
part of Standing in the Gap is using culture as
(45:01):
a medium for this message. And so please go find us,
sign up for our newsletter, learn about all the ways
that you can get involved, and you look out for
more things that we will be launching with artists in
the future. Because we believe culture is part of our
healing process. We believe culture is healing, and we believe
(45:22):
that when we create powerful cultural products like The Perfect Neighbor,
we can also elicit change in the world. So if
folks are interested in that work and being part of
our movement and being part of this mutual aid work
that we are doing to stand with families and communities,
they can learn all about that at Standing indegapfund dot org.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Thank you so much for that. We will make sure
to include all of that in our show notes. I
really appreciate both of you spending some time with us today.
Thank you, Thank you, Doctor Joy Thank you grateful that
Pamela and Takima took the time to share AJ's story
for today's episode. To learn more about them, the Perfect
(46:06):
Neighbor and the work they're doing with the Standing in
the Gap Fund, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session four forty two.
Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail
with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you
have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a
message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls
and let us know what's on your mind. We just
(46:28):
might answer it on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to
follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and
come on and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
(46:51):
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichuvu and Tyree Rush.
Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again. This week. I look forward
to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take
it care,
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