February 4, 2026 • 44 mins
From wellness products, to fragrances, to the haircare many of us grew up using, Black women are routinely exposed to harmful chemicals in products marketed directly to us. So what do we do when our everyday routines are shaped by systems that often put our health at risk? These exposures don’t happen in isolation; they build over time, contributing to serious and sometimes chronic health conditions that are deeply tied to environmental racism at a systemic level. But there are changes and solutions we can implement to curb these risks that contribute to a healthier, longer life.
Here to break all of this down is Dr. Tamarra James-Todd, Epidemiologist and Professor of Environmental Reproductive Epidemiology at Harvard University. Dr. James-Todd directs the Environmental Reproductive Justice Lab, where she studies how chemicals in consumer products and our broader environment impact Black women’s health across the lifespan. Her work not only exposes the inequities in these systems, but puts a focus on empowering communities with the knowledge and tools to reduce risks of harm. Today, we’re unpacking what environmental racism really looks like, how it shows up in the products we use every day, and what it will take to protect Black women’s health.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four forty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. From wellness products
to fragrances to the haircare many of us grew abusing.
(01:19):
Black women are routinely exposed to harmful chemicals and products
marketed directly to us. So what do we do when
our everyday routines are shaped by systems that often put
our health at risk. These exposures don't happen in isolation.
They build over time, contributing to serious and sometimes chronic
health conditions that are deeply tied to environmental racism at
(01:41):
a systemic level, But there are changes in solutions we
can implement to curve these risks that contribute to a healthier,
longer life. Here to break all of this down is
doctor Tamra James Todd, epidemiologist and Professor of Environmental Reproductive
Epidemiology at Harvard University. Doctor j James Todd directs the
(02:01):
Environmental Reproductive Justice Lab, where she studies how chemicals and
consumer products and our broader environment impact Black women's health
across the lifespan. Her work not only exposes the inequities
in these systems, but put a focus on empowering communities
with the knowledge and tools to reduce risk of harm. Today,
we're unpacking what environmental racism really looks like, how it
(02:23):
shows up in the products we use every day, and
what it will take to protect Black women's health. If
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in
session or join us over in our Patreon To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at Community
dot Therapy from blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank
(02:50):
you so much for joining us today, doctor James Todd.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to
be here.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, thank you. So I wonder if you can take
us back to little U and think back too. Was
there like a memory that you have of, maybe before
you were officially a scientist, of noticing something different in
the environment, or a memory that really stuck with you
related to the environment.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
So I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, and I
feel like it was both the greatest place to grow
up because people were kind. I enjoyed growing up with
my classmates in Raytown Schools, which is where I went
to school, and it was a community that was a
predominantly white space in which I went to school. But
(03:37):
I grew up in this little cul de sac that
was just completely black neighborhood. And one of the things
that my friends and I would notice as young girls
is that we would go to school and be made
fun of were you know, it's kind of the fifth grade,
sixth grade boys pulling the bra straps and so on,
(03:58):
And we were more developed and had to have these
conversations than like our white peers, and feeling different and
feeling othered already in that space made navigating that experience
of going through puberty at an earlier age challenging, and
so I think I really carried that into my adult space.
(04:23):
Maybe it didn't realize at the time that as someone
who was an aspiring scientist and that really was trying
just to enjoy learning signs, that I was caring for
that kind of what as a kid maybe it felt
like as a traumatic experience. And when I first became
aware of research studies that had looked at reasons or
(04:45):
risk factors of early puberty, seeing a that what I
felt like as a kid being validated that indeed black
girls were starting puberty earlier, that not only was that
the case, this was also linked to a variety of
adverse health outcomes both in the teen years and on
through later life, including breast cancer risk, but that there
(05:10):
might be something that we were exposed to in our environment,
including hair products that contained harmful chemicals, that might be
contributing to the reason why we were seeing earlier puberty.
And so that really for me connected my ten eleven
year old to me ourself with the twenty something to
(05:31):
me ourself that was starting graduate studies in public health
and epidemiology and having an aha moment that like there
might be something to this and wanting to not only
figure it out, but find solution.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
For Yeah, I love when there's a very clear way
that you're connecting like the fat pastelf to the present
and future itself. Right, Like there's it seems like a
through line from your work to your childhood.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So that's really cool.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So there may not be a typical day, but what
does maybe the day to day look like for an
environmental reproductive epidemiologis.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So I love that you already noted there's not likely
a typical day, and that is very true.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I would say that my day is filled with meeting
different types of people, whether that is connecting with our
students who are curious and so excited to learn and
make a difference in this world, to working with our
support teams and staff members who are there to help
(06:35):
us implement our research studies in science, to meeting with
collaborators who are both here locally and all over the
world at the same time, who are positioned to partner
with us to do this work that really is inspired
to make the world a healthier place.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So a lot of meetings, a lot of reviewing papers,
a lot of and a lot of generating and fostering
new ideas that will help us to create and innovate solutions.
I don't use that word a lot, solutions, and I
do think the reason why I use that is because
I want people to understand that science helps to make
(07:17):
the world a healthier place through identifying sustainable and achievable solutions.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Can you say more about how the work that you're
doing really shows up in real life in terms of
protecting black women's health.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
When I started doing this research about twenty five years ago,
there really wasn't an understanding about the fact that the
way here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Our consumer products are.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
In particularly our personal care products are regulated, doesn't actually
involve a company having to go through any vetting process.
So a company can simply we're interested in making a
new hair product or hair well. I mean there's in
the last I feel like the last five ten years,
we see this like really take off of the natural
(08:06):
hair product movement, and people are excited to see all
of these different parties innovate in this space. But what
we don't realize is just because it has landed on
the shelf does not mean that it's been that It
does not mean that it is safe for you. And
so what we've done in the last twenty five years
has really brought attention to that issue that personal care products,
(08:28):
particularly products that are marketed to black women, have chemicals
that are not always good for our bodies, and particularly
harmful chemicals. And people can say, well, everything's a chemical,
or you know, you have to make it with something.
But I think also what the average person is not
necessarily aware of, but there's been increasing awareness in this
(08:49):
is that here in the United States we regulate around
about a dozen different chemicals that are harmful to our
bodies health and that can be harmful ways that from
reproductive harms to harms for our brain and our brain
health and so on.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But there's scientific evidence that there are many.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
More chemicals that need to be regulated, and so the
same companies are adhering to standards in the European market
based on science that comes from research like mine and
others that really lead to regulations around thirteen hundred.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So we went from about thirteen here in the US the.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Thirteen hundred that are regulated or banned from use and
so the same company is producing a product that is
different for the European market than what is here.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And so one of.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
The things that we've done is to make the public aware,
importantly making clinicians aware. Clinicians, whether you're talking about a duela,
are you talking about an obstetrician or a pediatrician, a nurse,
they are one of our most iordant communicators right for
health information. The work you're doing here, doctor Duay super
(10:06):
important to communicating health information and so being able to
make sure that people who are coming to get information
have that information in their hands at their fingertips.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We really tried in our lab to do a lot
of work around making sure we communicate what is harmful,
what are some safer alternatives.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
That people can consider using, or strategies that people can
use to find and identify safer products, And that really
wasn't out there before. I know that I didn't know.
I thought that we regulated better, but we don't. And
the onus ends up following on us, but really expanding
that beyond us to thinking about health educators and that
(10:50):
being a much broader community than I think mostly people
think about. And then thinking about retailers and businesses holding
them accountable as well.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So, doctor James, what is your understanding of why the
US does not have stronger regulations around these kinds of
products when so many other countries do.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I am not a policymaker, and I don't want to
profess to ever be to be to be one as
far as an expert, but I do think it's just
kind of embedded in our DNA.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
We're individualists in some ways that.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Makes us amazing innovators, right Like I have an idea
and I get to take that idea and run with it.
And in other ways it means that the trade off
is that someone can bring something to market that could
unfortunately harm the market the people that are using those products.
So I think we often don't want to offset that
(11:45):
trade off, and we will go for the innovation side
of things as opposed to the without any kind of
guardrails or very few, and there are consequences to doing that.
So I do think trying to figure out a way
to balance that is.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Important, And what you're talking about really kind of falls
under this larger umbrella, which is a large part of
your work in terms of environmental racism. So for people
who've not heard that term before. Can you define that
for us?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, So, environmental racism is a form of discrimination in
which people are discriminated through place, through the products that
they use, the air that they breathe, even the ambient
temperatures that they're exposed to that are systematically occurring.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Due to the individual's racial identity.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
In the ways that that can kind of show up
in the world is that there might be structural policies
or governance in place that makes it difficult for people
to not purchase land in certain places that have more
access to trees, or that within their neighborhoods, they have
less access to resources that are health promoting and there's
(13:02):
more health harming things.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Within their environment.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And that can be inclusive of when we're talking about
hair products, like how does that connect to hair products?
And one of our amazing doctoral students, who has now
gone on to do a post doc, doctor Marissa Chan,
was really interested in this question of play space factors
and the impact and role of environmental racism as it
related to access and availability to safer hair products.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And it turns out that im predominantly black communities as
well as general income communities, that there's less access to
safer products. So if you go into a local big
box store in a community that is a predominantly black community,
for example, or you go into one of those large
(13:49):
beauty supply stores, those stores are up to two times
maybe even sometimes higher more likely to have products hair products,
particularly that have harmful chemicals in them that include these
chemicals that impact and are associated with fibroids, privnacy complications
like pre term birth and so on, diabetes risk, higher
(14:11):
risk of obesity in many conditions that impact Black women,
and so thinking about not just what do I use,
but what is available to me, what do I have
access to because I think oftentimes we say, oh, I
can order it online, it's fine, but the average person
is not actually ordering their personal care products.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Some hair products, yes, but many of the ones that
you use day to day not so much. Or even
things like toothpaste, lotion, dealdor that's not usually being ordered online.
We're getting it from our local stores. And that does
have impact on our health.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
More from our conversation after the break, you know, and
as an epidemiologist, you really are looking at like how
repeated exposures over time accumulate, right, And so when we
see something like the Flint water crisis or the information
(15:06):
that's coming out around AI data centers. We're really looking at,
like how is that impacting people over time? Can you
say more about what that looks like? And like how
repeated exposures really do impact our health?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Absolutely, I'm actually going to go back to this example
just that we were grounded in with the hair products,
But what folks to think about, what are the other
things that are in our environment that we're impacted with
day in, day out. So the reason why I became
really interested in hair products as an important risk factor
for health disparities, and that includes a variety of health
(15:40):
disparities ranging for early puberty to hair in mental puzzle
things such as hot flashes. Okay, so was really this
case series? So this is where a doctor sees some
really interesting cases throughout your clinical practice. And in this case,
this doctor saw four young girls that ranged in age
from four months old to four years old. So it
(16:03):
was a pediatrician, it was a pediatric and necronologist, and
the reason why he was seeing these girls was because
they had all developed breast and pubic care.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
So I said four months old to four years old.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Okay, And if you think about I have children too,
and so I've bathe the baby, put lotion on the baby,
or some children you might put a little bit of
hair oil and brush their hair or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But early on we start using products, all sorts of products.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Diaper cream, all of these things, diapers, wipes on our children.
Those things contain chemicals, and in childhood, children metabolize. That
means their bodies are processing those chemicals differently, sometimes slower,
sometimes more rapidly.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But you're exposed.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
And so it turns out in this particular case series,
it was hair products that the children weren't being exposed to.
Once they figured this out, they contained different forms of estrogen,
and the parents stopped. Unbeknown to the parents that these
actually were not on the label. I think sometimes even
people think, well, I can read the label and figure
it out, and that is true to some extent, yes,
But I don't think everybody should be a chemist to
(17:10):
try to figure out and just decipher this right. So
long Shore, the pediatric indergrownd just recommended let's stop using
these products and see what happens in the breast regress.
That means the breast went away and the pepacare fell out.
I mean, there are very few times that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Anything like that happens.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
But that goes to show that even at early ages,
people are exposed to things that can change their bodies. Now,
in that case, it was very extreme, like a four
month old having breast in pubiccare.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
That's extreme. You can visibly see it. But what you
don't realize is that some of those changes are things
that you can't see. And so you're being exposed.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And even if it is being processed through your body
pretty quickly, Okay, I used it tomorrow, and I use
it the next day, or I use that product a
week from now.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And so on, and so you keep doing that. You
do that through childhood when people's brains are developing again,
going back to the early puberty piece, you do that
through adolescence when people's the reproductive system is now ramped up,
and so on, and you continue throughout life, and that
constant and chronic exposure really can add up. It can
(18:18):
send people on kind of a different trajectory. And I
think about that in the context of one of the
things that can happen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Is fat cell development. So you can turn your bodies
fat cell development on, and the more fat cells that
are produced, and the more we might eat. Because some
of these things change our body's ability to say I'm full.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
You don't realize you're full anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So now I have more fat cells and I'm eating more,
and I keep doing that over time. What happens if
you keep eating and you have more fat ceales, you
see more obesity and then you try to counter that
with all sorts of things, but it doesn't quite work.
And all of the issues with that diabetes, heart disease,
all of that.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And so we see these connections and links.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Again, I gave the example of hair products and chemicals,
but some of this is true. We know that extreme
heat exposure over time has real impacts.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
On people's health.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
We see links with earlier death and mortality. We see
connections there. It also impacts mental health.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
We know that exposure to poor and contaminated water impacts
our health. And so you mentioned doctor Joy, these data centers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
They're contaminating our water. They're also costing us more. Right,
they have real impact on air.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Pollution, which is linked to all sorts of things. For
black women palatistical variant syndrome, for example, we just published
a paper in our group on this and.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Thinking about when you're.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Exposed, where you exposed when you were developing in your
mom's belly or your parents belly, and is that contributing
later or were you exposed later on or throughout your
life course. So it have implications, But there are things
what I don't want to leave people with here is
the worry of like, oh my goodness. Well that means
(20:10):
there are things people can do to help improve their health.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So we definitely want to get to those solutions. Because
as you were talking, I'm thinking, like I got to
go to read all of my labels, like what am
I using? What are the kids using? But are there
certain products or certain chemicals or ingredients that you definitely
want to kind of put on the ratearf for people
that they would want to be mindful of that could
show up in things like so you've mainly been talking
(20:34):
about like hair products, what are we talking about like lotions, soaps,
other kinds of things that you know, maybe seem pretty innoculous,
but we really should be paying attention to.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yeah, So I often tell people I'm growing up, I
was that kid that I'd stay at my grandmother's house
from time to time. I open up the drawer that
she'd have in her her bedroom and she have all
these perfumes. I love perfume, loved fragrance. I was also
that teenager that was like.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
They're at bath and body worse or wherever, so having
you know, I love fragrance. And yet one of the
things I suggest to people now now that I know
more about this, is you could be an amazing fragrance lover,
like you might love lavender. That might be your thing
for relaxing and trying to feel better, for example. And
(21:23):
what I recommend to folks is reduce your fragrance exposure.
So trying to wear perfumes and other fragrance products a
bit less. It does help with a variety of reducing
exposures to some of these harmful chemicals that are linked
to adverse health outcomes that I've mentioned reproductive outcomes, mental
(21:45):
health outcomes interestingly enough as well. And what's interesting too
is that oftentimes people.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Say, well, I use essential oil, so this is not
a problem for me, and I say they're not all
the same. So lavender I mentioned, as well as tea
tree oil, are two essential oils that have been shown
to be estrogenic. In other words, they mess with your
body's hormones, so you don't want to.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Kind of day in, day out. And I said reduce.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
I didn't say eliminated, because I think it's hard to
eliminate things, but it does help to decrease your exposures.
Black women have among the highest exposures to some of
these harmful they're called endocrine disrupting chemicals, a big name
to just say that these are chemicals that mess with
your body's hormones.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
And hormones regulate a lot in our body.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
They manage a lot of different functions, and when we
mess with them, we don't actually get to have those
functions to operate or function do.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Normal things for us.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So long short, that's one thing I often say, big
picture consumer products, you want to think about what you're
storing your food's in, not microwaving and storing foods in
plastic for example, when possible, don't use a lot of
plastics in your home. And thinking about I think a
(22:59):
lot of people don't even realize this that like those
like glade plug ins or other things that you might use,
those are actually plasticizers.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So to hold fragrance in a product, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Just glade just to be clear, like it's any of
those like air freshener things to hold those in the product,
and for them to actually work, they have to actually
have these kind of chemicals in them that are known
to be reproductive toxin. So thinking about ways that you
can reduce both your personal use of fragrance, your home
(23:29):
use of fragrance, steering clear of things like many of
the things that people are like, oh I love lavender,
I love this, you know, trying to reduce some of
the central oil use that we know can be orm
lanti if not all sential oils are the same, and
trying to also be able to use some of the
new technology that we have.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Again I go back to I don't want to be
a chemist. I'm not a chemist.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And for the chemists out there, hooray, But for most
of us we are not.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So considering using reading labels is helpful.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
But maybe you consider using like apps like you know,
like here your folks talk about you goa or environmental
working groups, skin deep app and being able to see, oh,
this is what's in this product, this is what it
could do, and making informed choices about.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Maybe I can use this one, but maybe I don't.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Use this one too, because we often don't use one
product at a time. I think the average woman, for example,
uses about twelve or so products a day and is
exposed to about one hundred and sixty different chemicals every day.
So to the extent that we as black women who
are big users of products and highly exposed to these chemicals,
(24:40):
the extent that we can reduce that to some degree
would be green.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So as you're talking, I'd love to hear if there's
a connection you've made in your work thinking about like
just the history of what we've been taught about our
bodies and being dirty. Right, it feels like there is
a connection between smells and like wanting to be perfumed
in the beauty industry that is so deeply entrenched I
(25:04):
think in many black women's lives. So like the racism
really runs even further I think than we sometimes imagine.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, so there's this both the body part in the
home part. Right, So I say this folks, sometimes, like
when you think of beautiful, do you get a smell?
Like if I asked you to define beauty or I
feel when I'm feeling particularly beautiful, what does.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That look or smell like? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And that could include things like straightened hair and makeup
and putting on that fragrance or the close smell a
certain way. Like, it's all of these things that we
do to augment our bodies and change our natural appearance.
And I'm not saying that that's but I love looking
(25:55):
a certain way.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You know, all of that, But that's also for our
homes too, Right, what does clean smell like to you?
And when I say clean, like.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Somebody might get like, oh the smell of lemon, the
smell of the pine saw exactly. I'm like, I know
what we'd use When I was growing up, we were
fine saw users.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So thinking about all of that and what would it
look like in the world to start changing that. What
will it take.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I remember when I first started wearing my hair natural.
I did it long before this old natural hair movement started,
partly because I loved my curls.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I was like, this is awesome. You know.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
I won't tell you the number the product that I
was products I was using to maintain those girls, but
I really did embrace that long before. And the pushback
even from your own family, right, your own family be like, why.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Are you walking out of us like that? So part
of that change, Like part of the solution is as
we as a people can support each other in our
transition to safer products, safer exposures and be more open
to what that might look like and what that might
(27:08):
smell like, and what that might feel like. And you're
one hundred percent right though that a part of that
is the systemic the messages that we've gotten as people
about what we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to
show up in the world. And it's beautiful to see
that that's shifting. And I think we need to like lean.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Into that moment and not be afraid to go back
and when we run into challenges to like figure out.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
As a way to innovate.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
One thing that we have done in our again going
back to doctor Chan's work, because I really just want
to highlight the amazing work that she has done as
a multiracial woman, is to think about who should be
at the table to help make change. So in the
context of hair and hair products, it was not just
(27:57):
thinking about policymakers, which often time.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
If in fact, if you ask scientists who.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Should be at the table for solution, it's going to
be policymakers. It's us and policymakers, And what she asked
was she asked the community who's involved in solutions. And
at the end of the day, what you're talking about,
doctor Joy balestown down to an issue of trust and
the messages that we've gotten leads us to not trust
(28:26):
thes anybody, you know, like it might be a false message,
and I don't. So it was the community, It was
the salon owners, It included scientists and policymakers, but it
also really included thinking about the role of health communicators.
(28:46):
And I go back to that I know has started there,
but like the work that you're doing, the influencers out there,
that they are communicating information, the clinicians, they are communicating information.
And so to the extent that we can educate different
people that are in this discussion, it's going to be
key and important to making change.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Can you say a little bit more. I know there
has been so much research that has come out around
like relaxers. Of course, you know, so many of us
grew up getting relaxes, and I think we're having very
different conversations now, but I think now we're starting to
see more of the numbers and like the impact of
how relaxers and hair straighteners and different things like that
have impacted people's health. Can you say more about what
(29:30):
we've learned and what people might want to know about
those products specifically.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Back in the ninety there was a set of papers
that came out really looking at the impact of relaxers,
and it was really getting at LIE specifically. They were
interested in knowing whether or not a LIE relaxer due
to potential of burn and so on, was having impact
on at the time, like other health harms.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Previous work had.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Focused in on like skin health that was the primary focus,
like looking at dermatology and so on, but these were
the first kind of papers that were starting to look at,
for example, fibroids or breast cancer. And what has been
really interesting to see is this awareness that it's not
just LIE. For example, as many of us though, like
(30:17):
particularly those of us who've ever had a relaxer, you
see the person or maybe ourselves, like we mix up
the chemicals together and we can smell it and spell
as a particular kind of spell, and so this awareness
that there's other chemicals and so maybe back in I
think it was two thousand and eighteen, a paper came
(30:38):
out that documented what were the different types of chemicals
that were in hair relaxers and other hair products, and
it turned out there were many different types of that
gang about these hormonally active chemicals, there were also asthma
inducing chemicals. So in the black community community we also
have higher rates of asthma, for example. And that work
(30:59):
was actually done by Silent Spring Institute, I should say
as a part of us sharing a list of commonly
used hair products from a study that I ran, the
Greater New York Care Products Study. But what that made
people aware of is we should probably be looking at
more than just lie. We should look at other things.
(31:20):
And there was an awareness that these had from aldehyde
releasing agents in them. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen, in other words,
is a cancer causing agent. Who or the World Health
Organization and others have noted this, And so this interest
and curiosity around weight, maybe we should look at is
(31:43):
there a link with breast cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine cancer,
some of which are much more common among black women.
Black women are using these products more Black women have
higher coxposure to some of these chemicals. And indeed that's
what has been found in these studies is that now
have pointed to this with that increased awareness, being able
(32:04):
to say these companies may have known.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
That they are putting chemicals in that.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Could be harmful, and holding companies accountable accordingly for that.
So I think it's important that we're sitting in a
moment in time where we become aware of that. But
one thing I'll just note is the hair relaxers are
on for a very short period of time. One of
the things that we really have been trying to bring
attention to is that, going back to doctor Joy, what
(32:31):
you mentioned about chronic exposures, what about the maintenance products.
What are about the products that we use, whether we're
getting relaxers, whether we're doing natural hair that we're using
day and day out or weekend, week out, that keep
exposing us, our kids, our elders to these harmful products,
our chemicals and the implications on our health.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
More from our conversation after the break and you mentioned
you know, you want people not to kind of walk
away feeling hopeless. I mean, because it can be very
overwhelming to think about, like, oh my gosh, I got
to read all these labels, I got to remove all
(33:12):
these things. What are some steps that people can take
to you kind of start maybe minimizing, you said, like
cut back on their footprint in terms of maybe the
products and things that they're using.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, so there are safer products out there. So that's
like a first like I don't know, like I don't
know about you all, but like just that, like I
hope that that creates room to breathe. There are safer
products out there. Is there room for war safer products? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Is there opportunity and for innovation and holding companies accountable?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yes. So the kind of things that I often encourage
people to do is.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
We many of us have phones. We use all sorts
of apps on our phones. Download an app, find one
that you really like. Some of the apps will actually
you scan a product in the store and they tell
you, you know what this nih maybe try this other one.
So they'll give suggestions and alternatives. We'll give you an
actual rating. Like some people like seeing numbers. They like
(34:08):
to see red, green, yellow, and so like again I
mentioned a couple, I'll go back and say things like
the environmental work in group Skin Deep BAP. I also
want to say that I have no affiliation with any
of these organizations, but Yuka and detox me these are
different apps that folks can see and be mindful of.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Reading labels helps. I will say again in the United States,
we do not require companies to have to disclose everything.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Okay, So there are certain things that you will see
on a label. For example, you might see something like pairavin,
like methyl pair of it or ethyl pairvin, and those
are chemicals that are put into products.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
To keep the bacterial growth down.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Important also important to know that if it's something you're
going to be using all the time daily, those chemicals
do impact the intecrint system and so they've been linked
to a number of different health outcomes, So you might
want to think about that fragrance. Fragrance is actually hundreds
of different chemicals. So you'll see fragrance on a package.
It's many different things. And to hold the fragrance in
(35:15):
our plasticizers like these big words like balades and so on,
and those are the chemicals that have been linked to
like pre term birth, hypertensive disorders of pregnancy, so preeclampsia
and so on, and so just thinking about maybe there's
time periods that we use less of those we choose
to during pregnancy, make a different choice, and so we
(35:36):
can kind of team up use our own ability to
read the labels and say, Okay, I'm not going to
I'm gonna say away from Fragrance because says Fragrance, and
I'm gonna choose something else or using those apps. And
then I mentioned some of these other things that people
can do within their homes, like there's ways to I do.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Not have time to do this, but if you so choose,
I tell people, maybe choose one thing you can change.
So for some people it might be I had a
friend who was really inspired to change. I was not
this person, but she was.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Like, I'm going to change my deodorant. I was like great,
So she started making her own deodorant. I did not
have time to make my own deordorant, but I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Glad she chose one thing. So maybe if you're one
thing might not be.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Please don't go home, or if you're at home, don't
go to your letting clouse or wherever you store your
products and throw out all your products.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Don't do that, but choose one thing that you might change.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
In order to start moving the needle towards lower exposures.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
You've mentioned several times that there is more space also
to hold like companies and corporations accountable. What might that
look like, doctor James Hatt? Is that voting with our
dollars and like not buying these products? Writing letters to
the companies like what does you know? Holding them accountable
actually look like?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I think it's all of those things. I think real
innovation starts happening. And I'll give you an example of this.
So maybe back in around like twenty ten, so my
colleague and I reached out to a major manufacturer. I
won't name who it was, but we reached out to manufacturer.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
We've looked at the market.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
The market is very green when it comes to products
that are marketed towards white individuals and individuals who have
straight and not textured hair. We don't see that for
people of color, particularly black women and people who have
very curly hair. We would love to work with you
to innovate around this, and to not just.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Innovate around this, but to ensure that we are contributing
to making products that are safer. So we really wanted
to work with this major manufacturer to do so, and
they said to us, there is no market for this.
Black people will not buy safer products. It will cost
more money and they will not purchase it. I had
two issues with this, or maybe even more than two,
(37:52):
but I just want to highlight the two that came
to my mind.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
One, we are one of the largest We meaning black
women are one of the largest consumers of personal care
products and particularly the largest consumer of hair products.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Like we will buy products too, we will pay a
lot for them. So I just was dumbfounded. But what
was being said.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And we kept trying, and we just kind of didn't
go anywhere. But then what happened. You start seeing black
women take up arms with this and push.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
For new products.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Now a part of that wasn't really around safer products.
It was around products that were marketed to natural hair.
So we started seeing a push towards that. We also
started seeing pop ups of companies that were marketing towards
our children with safer products. And we did it ourselves.
We saw the gap in the market and we said,
(38:52):
this is what we're going to do. Now, everybody's going
to start their own company. And we certainly have seen
a huge boom in social media around people do it
yourself and all of this, and certainly that's a thing,
but I think a part of it is making sure.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
That we do have money to spend on this. We
can talk with our money and if that means we're
going to purchase products that are safer and healthier for
us being able to do so, so do your research.
One two. Really, when I say hold companies accountable, I
think when there's harm done, we often won't report it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
It takes up time, it takes up issue. And there
are companies that they were developed by a black woman
and then sold and then I don't know about you,
I've experienced this, where then the product if you scalp
at all that and I'm like, oh, nevermind, I just
go on to another product. Right to that company, right
to the federal government, right to the state government, right
(39:51):
to your local government, and start getting that done. Some
of the biggest innovation that has happened around policy and
regulation in this space is actually at the state level,
So do not be afraid to get involved at the
state level. One thing I'll bring up in this space
is what's slowly happening across the country is.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
A deregulation of the beauty industry through.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Bills that are being passed to make it not necessary
for people to be licensed and on them want to do.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Hair and on the one hand, like sure can maybe.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Innovate around economics, and that's important, but it's also important
here is a part of our body.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
What we put on our hair is a part of
our body. We're seeing that with braining hare for example,
right like containing lead and other like harmful chemicals.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
It sits on our scalp, It's absorbed through our body.
We put this on young children. We know lead can
actually impact young children self impacts all people's health, but
particularly young children.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
And so this is problematic.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
If we don't have people in place that know about this,
it can have real harm in our community. So being
able to advocate at the state level, going to your
state legislator, seeing who was involved in the passing of
these bills, and really making sure that people see and
hear from you about the potential health harm to impacts
of these laws and policies can make a real difference.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
In the world.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
What gives you hope about this work, doctor James Hid.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
When I started this twenty five years ago, I remember
people having no clue what I was talking about. What
are you saying you want to look at consumer products
and chemicals and women's health, What does that even mean?
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And that you're interested in how this impacts health disparies.
We don't know what you're talking about. In the hair
product space, it was people use shampoo, conditioner, they wash
it out and it's done.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
What do you say, you know?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
I'm like, that's not my lived experience. I sure I
use shampoo and conditioner, but I also use list of
other products. I am inspired and I see hope in
conversations that people are having about an awareness that they
have out environmental factors in women's health. The fact that
we can have this conversation, doctor Joy, in that it's
(42:07):
becoming a more mainstream conversation that people are aware that
it's not just what you eat.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It's not just the water you drink.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Or the air you breathe, but it's also the products
that you use that can have real impact on your health.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I have learned so much in talking with you, just
for this brief time. I feel like there are so
many more questions I have for you, but cannot take
up all of your time for sure. But where can
we stay connected with your work? Doctor James? How what
is your website as well as any social media handles
that you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
First of all, thank you again for having me. It's
been wonderful. You can feel free to stay connected with me.
I can be found on a Harvard chan School of
Public Health's website under the James Todd Lab. We are
also the Environmental Reproductive Justice Labs, so you can feel
free to google us that way and find us there.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
You can follow some of the work that we've done
through the Beauty plus Justice podcast, which is available on
Apple and Spotify platforms, and we are also good president
on social media through the James Toodlab. So we would
love to have you all continue to connect and reach
out to us through those different platforms.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Perfect We'll make sure to include all of that information
in the show notes. Thank you so much for sending
some time with us today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Thank you so much for having me. I have a
wonderful rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Now, don't go throwing everything in your bathroom away, y'all.
Remember baby steps and small changes are a huge benefit
to your health in the long run. I learned so
much from this conversation and I'm happy that she was
able to join us today. So learn more about doctor
James Todd and her work. Be sure to check out
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
Session four four nine, and don't forget to text two
(43:44):
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. Did you know that you could leave
us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast.
If you have topics you'd like us to discuss, drop
us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for
Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
(44:06):
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and join us over in our Patreon for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. We can't wait
to see you there. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced
by Lisa Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
(44:29):
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four forty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. From wellness products
to fragrances to the haircare many of us grew abusing.
(01:19):
Black women are routinely exposed to harmful chemicals and products
marketed directly to us. So what do we do when
our everyday routines are shaped by systems that often put
our health at risk. These exposures don't happen in isolation.
They build over time, contributing to serious and sometimes chronic
health conditions that are deeply tied to environmental racism at
(01:41):
a systemic level, But there are changes in solutions we
can implement to curve these risks that contribute to a healthier,
longer life. Here to break all of this down is
doctor Tamra James Todd, epidemiologist and Professor of Environmental Reproductive
Epidemiology at Harvard University. Doctor j James Todd directs the
(02:01):
Environmental Reproductive Justice Lab, where she studies how chemicals and
consumer products and our broader environment impact Black women's health
across the lifespan. Her work not only exposes the inequities
in these systems, but put a focus on empowering communities
with the knowledge and tools to reduce risk of harm. Today,
we're unpacking what environmental racism really looks like, how it
(02:23):
shows up in the products we use every day, and
what it will take to protect Black women's health. If
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in
session or join us over in our Patreon To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at Community
dot Therapy from blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank
(02:50):
you so much for joining us today, doctor James Todd.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to
be here.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, thank you. So I wonder if you can take
us back to little U and think back too. Was
there like a memory that you have of, maybe before
you were officially a scientist, of noticing something different in
the environment, or a memory that really stuck with you
related to the environment.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
So I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, and I
feel like it was both the greatest place to grow
up because people were kind. I enjoyed growing up with
my classmates in Raytown Schools, which is where I went
to school, and it was a community that was a
predominantly white space in which I went to school. But
(03:37):
I grew up in this little cul de sac that
was just completely black neighborhood. And one of the things
that my friends and I would notice as young girls
is that we would go to school and be made
fun of were you know, it's kind of the fifth grade,
sixth grade boys pulling the bra straps and so on,
(03:58):
And we were more developed and had to have these
conversations than like our white peers, and feeling different and
feeling othered already in that space made navigating that experience
of going through puberty at an earlier age challenging, and
so I think I really carried that into my adult space.
(04:23):
Maybe it didn't realize at the time that as someone
who was an aspiring scientist and that really was trying
just to enjoy learning signs, that I was caring for
that kind of what as a kid maybe it felt
like as a traumatic experience. And when I first became
aware of research studies that had looked at reasons or
(04:45):
risk factors of early puberty, seeing a that what I
felt like as a kid being validated that indeed black
girls were starting puberty earlier, that not only was that
the case, this was also linked to a variety of
adverse health outcomes both in the teen years and on
through later life, including breast cancer risk, but that there
(05:10):
might be something that we were exposed to in our environment,
including hair products that contained harmful chemicals, that might be
contributing to the reason why we were seeing earlier puberty.
And so that really for me connected my ten eleven
year old to me ourself with the twenty something to
(05:31):
me ourself that was starting graduate studies in public health
and epidemiology and having an aha moment that like there
might be something to this and wanting to not only
figure it out, but find solution.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
For Yeah, I love when there's a very clear way
that you're connecting like the fat pastelf to the present
and future itself. Right, Like there's it seems like a
through line from your work to your childhood.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So that's really cool.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So there may not be a typical day, but what
does maybe the day to day look like for an
environmental reproductive epidemiologis.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So I love that you already noted there's not likely
a typical day, and that is very true.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I would say that my day is filled with meeting
different types of people, whether that is connecting with our
students who are curious and so excited to learn and
make a difference in this world, to working with our
support teams and staff members who are there to help
(06:35):
us implement our research studies in science, to meeting with
collaborators who are both here locally and all over the
world at the same time, who are positioned to partner
with us to do this work that really is inspired
to make the world a healthier place.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So a lot of meetings, a lot of reviewing papers,
a lot of and a lot of generating and fostering
new ideas that will help us to create and innovate solutions.
I don't use that word a lot, solutions, and I
do think the reason why I use that is because
I want people to understand that science helps to make
(07:17):
the world a healthier place through identifying sustainable and achievable solutions.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Can you say more about how the work that you're
doing really shows up in real life in terms of
protecting black women's health.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
When I started doing this research about twenty five years ago,
there really wasn't an understanding about the fact that the
way here in the United States.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Our consumer products are.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
In particularly our personal care products are regulated, doesn't actually
involve a company having to go through any vetting process.
So a company can simply we're interested in making a
new hair product or hair well. I mean there's in
the last I feel like the last five ten years,
we see this like really take off of the natural
(08:06):
hair product movement, and people are excited to see all
of these different parties innovate in this space. But what
we don't realize is just because it has landed on
the shelf does not mean that it's been that It
does not mean that it is safe for you. And
so what we've done in the last twenty five years
has really brought attention to that issue that personal care products,
(08:28):
particularly products that are marketed to black women, have chemicals
that are not always good for our bodies, and particularly
harmful chemicals. And people can say, well, everything's a chemical,
or you know, you have to make it with something.
But I think also what the average person is not
necessarily aware of, but there's been increasing awareness in this
(08:49):
is that here in the United States we regulate around
about a dozen different chemicals that are harmful to our
bodies health and that can be harmful ways that from
reproductive harms to harms for our brain and our brain
health and so on.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But there's scientific evidence that there are many.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
More chemicals that need to be regulated, and so the
same companies are adhering to standards in the European market
based on science that comes from research like mine and
others that really lead to regulations around thirteen hundred.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So we went from about thirteen here in the US the.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Thirteen hundred that are regulated or banned from use and
so the same company is producing a product that is
different for the European market than what is here.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And so one of.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
The things that we've done is to make the public aware,
importantly making clinicians aware. Clinicians, whether you're talking about a duela,
are you talking about an obstetrician or a pediatrician, a nurse,
they are one of our most iordant communicators right for
health information. The work you're doing here, doctor Duay super
(10:06):
important to communicating health information and so being able to
make sure that people who are coming to get information
have that information in their hands at their fingertips.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We really tried in our lab to do a lot
of work around making sure we communicate what is harmful,
what are some safer alternatives.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
That people can consider using, or strategies that people can
use to find and identify safer products, And that really
wasn't out there before. I know that I didn't know.
I thought that we regulated better, but we don't. And
the onus ends up following on us, but really expanding
that beyond us to thinking about health educators and that
(10:50):
being a much broader community than I think mostly people
think about. And then thinking about retailers and businesses holding
them accountable as well.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So, doctor James, what is your understanding of why the
US does not have stronger regulations around these kinds of
products when so many other countries do.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I am not a policymaker, and I don't want to
profess to ever be to be to be one as
far as an expert, but I do think it's just
kind of embedded in our DNA.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
We're individualists in some ways that.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Makes us amazing innovators, right Like I have an idea
and I get to take that idea and run with it.
And in other ways it means that the trade off
is that someone can bring something to market that could
unfortunately harm the market the people that are using those products.
So I think we often don't want to offset that
(11:45):
trade off, and we will go for the innovation side
of things as opposed to the without any kind of
guardrails or very few, and there are consequences to doing that.
So I do think trying to figure out a way
to balance that is.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Important, And what you're talking about really kind of falls
under this larger umbrella, which is a large part of
your work in terms of environmental racism. So for people
who've not heard that term before. Can you define that
for us?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, So, environmental racism is a form of discrimination in
which people are discriminated through place, through the products that
they use, the air that they breathe, even the ambient
temperatures that they're exposed to that are systematically occurring.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Due to the individual's racial identity.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
In the ways that that can kind of show up
in the world is that there might be structural policies
or governance in place that makes it difficult for people
to not purchase land in certain places that have more
access to trees, or that within their neighborhoods, they have
less access to resources that are health promoting and there's
(13:02):
more health harming things.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Within their environment.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And that can be inclusive of when we're talking about
hair products, like how does that connect to hair products?
And one of our amazing doctoral students, who has now
gone on to do a post doc, doctor Marissa Chan,
was really interested in this question of play space factors
and the impact and role of environmental racism as it
related to access and availability to safer hair products.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And it turns out that im predominantly black communities as
well as general income communities, that there's less access to
safer products. So if you go into a local big
box store in a community that is a predominantly black community,
for example, or you go into one of those large
(13:49):
beauty supply stores, those stores are up to two times
maybe even sometimes higher more likely to have products hair products,
particularly that have harmful chemicals in them that include these
chemicals that impact and are associated with fibroids, privnacy complications
like pre term birth and so on, diabetes risk, higher
(14:11):
risk of obesity in many conditions that impact Black women,
and so thinking about not just what do I use,
but what is available to me, what do I have
access to because I think oftentimes we say, oh, I
can order it online, it's fine, but the average person
is not actually ordering their personal care products.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Some hair products, yes, but many of the ones that
you use day to day not so much. Or even
things like toothpaste, lotion, dealdor that's not usually being ordered online.
We're getting it from our local stores. And that does
have impact on our health.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
More from our conversation after the break, you know, and
as an epidemiologist, you really are looking at like how
repeated exposures over time accumulate, right, And so when we
see something like the Flint water crisis or the information
(15:06):
that's coming out around AI data centers. We're really looking at,
like how is that impacting people over time? Can you
say more about what that looks like? And like how
repeated exposures really do impact our health?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Absolutely, I'm actually going to go back to this example
just that we were grounded in with the hair products,
But what folks to think about, what are the other
things that are in our environment that we're impacted with
day in, day out. So the reason why I became
really interested in hair products as an important risk factor
for health disparities, and that includes a variety of health
(15:40):
disparities ranging for early puberty to hair in mental puzzle
things such as hot flashes. Okay, so was really this
case series? So this is where a doctor sees some
really interesting cases throughout your clinical practice. And in this case,
this doctor saw four young girls that ranged in age
from four months old to four years old. So it
(16:03):
was a pediatrician, it was a pediatric and necronologist, and
the reason why he was seeing these girls was because
they had all developed breast and pubic care.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
So I said four months old to four years old.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Okay, And if you think about I have children too,
and so I've bathe the baby, put lotion on the baby,
or some children you might put a little bit of
hair oil and brush their hair or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But early on we start using products, all sorts of products.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Diaper cream, all of these things, diapers, wipes on our children.
Those things contain chemicals, and in childhood, children metabolize. That
means their bodies are processing those chemicals differently, sometimes slower,
sometimes more rapidly.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But you're exposed.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
And so it turns out in this particular case series,
it was hair products that the children weren't being exposed to.
Once they figured this out, they contained different forms of estrogen,
and the parents stopped. Unbeknown to the parents that these
actually were not on the label. I think sometimes even
people think, well, I can read the label and figure
it out, and that is true to some extent, yes,
But I don't think everybody should be a chemist to
(17:10):
try to figure out and just decipher this right. So
long Shore, the pediatric indergrownd just recommended let's stop using
these products and see what happens in the breast regress.
That means the breast went away and the pepacare fell out.
I mean, there are very few times that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Anything like that happens.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
But that goes to show that even at early ages,
people are exposed to things that can change their bodies. Now,
in that case, it was very extreme, like a four
month old having breast in pubiccare.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
That's extreme. You can visibly see it. But what you
don't realize is that some of those changes are things
that you can't see. And so you're being exposed.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And even if it is being processed through your body
pretty quickly, Okay, I used it tomorrow, and I use
it the next day, or I use that product a
week from now.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And so on, and so you keep doing that. You
do that through childhood when people's brains are developing again,
going back to the early puberty piece, you do that
through adolescence when people's the reproductive system is now ramped up,
and so on, and you continue throughout life, and that
constant and chronic exposure really can add up. It can
(18:18):
send people on kind of a different trajectory. And I
think about that in the context of one of the
things that can happen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Is fat cell development. So you can turn your bodies
fat cell development on, and the more fat cells that
are produced, and the more we might eat. Because some
of these things change our body's ability to say I'm full.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
You don't realize you're full anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So now I have more fat cells and I'm eating more,
and I keep doing that over time. What happens if
you keep eating and you have more fat ceales, you
see more obesity and then you try to counter that
with all sorts of things, but it doesn't quite work.
And all of the issues with that diabetes, heart disease,
all of that.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And so we see these connections and links.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Again, I gave the example of hair products and chemicals,
but some of this is true. We know that extreme
heat exposure over time has real impacts.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
On people's health.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
We see links with earlier death and mortality. We see
connections there. It also impacts mental health.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
We know that exposure to poor and contaminated water impacts
our health. And so you mentioned doctor Joy, these data centers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
They're contaminating our water. They're also costing us more. Right,
they have real impact on air.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Pollution, which is linked to all sorts of things. For
black women palatistical variant syndrome, for example, we just published
a paper in our group on this and.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Thinking about when you're.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Exposed, where you exposed when you were developing in your
mom's belly or your parents belly, and is that contributing
later or were you exposed later on or throughout your
life course. So it have implications, But there are things
what I don't want to leave people with here is
the worry of like, oh my goodness. Well that means
(20:10):
there are things people can do to help improve their health.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So we definitely want to get to those solutions. Because
as you were talking, I'm thinking, like I got to
go to read all of my labels, like what am
I using? What are the kids using? But are there
certain products or certain chemicals or ingredients that you definitely
want to kind of put on the ratearf for people
that they would want to be mindful of that could
show up in things like so you've mainly been talking
(20:34):
about like hair products, what are we talking about like lotions, soaps,
other kinds of things that you know, maybe seem pretty innoculous,
but we really should be paying attention to.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yeah, So I often tell people I'm growing up, I
was that kid that I'd stay at my grandmother's house
from time to time. I open up the drawer that
she'd have in her her bedroom and she have all
these perfumes. I love perfume, loved fragrance. I was also
that teenager that was like.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
They're at bath and body worse or wherever, so having
you know, I love fragrance. And yet one of the
things I suggest to people now now that I know
more about this, is you could be an amazing fragrance lover,
like you might love lavender. That might be your thing
for relaxing and trying to feel better, for example. And
(21:23):
what I recommend to folks is reduce your fragrance exposure.
So trying to wear perfumes and other fragrance products a
bit less. It does help with a variety of reducing
exposures to some of these harmful chemicals that are linked
to adverse health outcomes that I've mentioned reproductive outcomes, mental
(21:45):
health outcomes interestingly enough as well. And what's interesting too
is that oftentimes people.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Say, well, I use essential oil, so this is not
a problem for me, and I say they're not all
the same. So lavender I mentioned, as well as tea
tree oil, are two essential oils that have been shown
to be estrogenic. In other words, they mess with your
body's hormones, so you don't want to.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Kind of day in, day out. And I said reduce.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
I didn't say eliminated, because I think it's hard to
eliminate things, but it does help to decrease your exposures.
Black women have among the highest exposures to some of
these harmful they're called endocrine disrupting chemicals, a big name
to just say that these are chemicals that mess with
your body's hormones.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
And hormones regulate a lot in our body.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
They manage a lot of different functions, and when we
mess with them, we don't actually get to have those
functions to operate or function do.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Normal things for us.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So long short, that's one thing I often say, big
picture consumer products, you want to think about what you're
storing your food's in, not microwaving and storing foods in
plastic for example, when possible, don't use a lot of
plastics in your home. And thinking about I think a
(22:59):
lot of people don't even realize this that like those
like glade plug ins or other things that you might use,
those are actually plasticizers.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So to hold fragrance in a product, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Just glade just to be clear, like it's any of
those like air freshener things to hold those in the product,
and for them to actually work, they have to actually
have these kind of chemicals in them that are known
to be reproductive toxin. So thinking about ways that you
can reduce both your personal use of fragrance, your home
(23:29):
use of fragrance, steering clear of things like many of
the things that people are like, oh I love lavender,
I love this, you know, trying to reduce some of
the central oil use that we know can be orm
lanti if not all sential oils are the same, and
trying to also be able to use some of the
new technology that we have.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Again I go back to I don't want to be
a chemist. I'm not a chemist.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And for the chemists out there, hooray, But for most
of us we are not.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So considering using reading labels is helpful.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
But maybe you consider using like apps like you know,
like here your folks talk about you goa or environmental
working groups, skin deep app and being able to see, oh,
this is what's in this product, this is what it
could do, and making informed choices about.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Maybe I can use this one, but maybe I don't.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Use this one too, because we often don't use one
product at a time. I think the average woman, for example,
uses about twelve or so products a day and is
exposed to about one hundred and sixty different chemicals every day.
So to the extent that we as black women who
are big users of products and highly exposed to these chemicals,
(24:40):
the extent that we can reduce that to some degree
would be green.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So as you're talking, I'd love to hear if there's
a connection you've made in your work thinking about like
just the history of what we've been taught about our
bodies and being dirty. Right, it feels like there is
a connection between smells and like wanting to be perfumed
in the beauty industry that is so deeply entrenched I
(25:04):
think in many black women's lives. So like the racism
really runs even further I think than we sometimes imagine.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, so there's this both the body part in the
home part. Right, So I say this folks, sometimes, like
when you think of beautiful, do you get a smell?
Like if I asked you to define beauty or I
feel when I'm feeling particularly beautiful, what does.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That look or smell like? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And that could include things like straightened hair and makeup
and putting on that fragrance or the close smell a
certain way. Like, it's all of these things that we
do to augment our bodies and change our natural appearance.
And I'm not saying that that's but I love looking
(25:55):
a certain way.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You know, all of that, But that's also for our
homes too, Right, what does clean smell like to you?
And when I say clean, like.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Somebody might get like, oh the smell of lemon, the
smell of the pine saw exactly. I'm like, I know
what we'd use When I was growing up, we were
fine saw users.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So thinking about all of that and what would it
look like in the world to start changing that. What
will it take.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I remember when I first started wearing my hair natural.
I did it long before this old natural hair movement started,
partly because I loved my curls.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I was like, this is awesome. You know.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
I won't tell you the number the product that I
was products I was using to maintain those girls, but
I really did embrace that long before. And the pushback
even from your own family, right, your own family be like, why.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Are you walking out of us like that? So part
of that change, Like part of the solution is as
we as a people can support each other in our
transition to safer products, safer exposures and be more open
to what that might look like and what that might
(27:08):
smell like, and what that might feel like. And you're
one hundred percent right though that a part of that
is the systemic the messages that we've gotten as people
about what we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to
show up in the world. And it's beautiful to see
that that's shifting. And I think we need to like lean.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Into that moment and not be afraid to go back
and when we run into challenges to like figure out.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
As a way to innovate.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
One thing that we have done in our again going
back to doctor Chan's work, because I really just want
to highlight the amazing work that she has done as
a multiracial woman, is to think about who should be
at the table to help make change. So in the
context of hair and hair products, it was not just
(27:57):
thinking about policymakers, which often time.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
If in fact, if you ask scientists who.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Should be at the table for solution, it's going to
be policymakers. It's us and policymakers, And what she asked
was she asked the community who's involved in solutions. And
at the end of the day, what you're talking about,
doctor Joy balestown down to an issue of trust and
the messages that we've gotten leads us to not trust
(28:26):
thes anybody, you know, like it might be a false message,
and I don't. So it was the community, It was
the salon owners, It included scientists and policymakers, but it
also really included thinking about the role of health communicators.
(28:46):
And I go back to that I know has started there,
but like the work that you're doing, the influencers out there,
that they are communicating information, the clinicians, they are communicating information.
And so to the extent that we can educate different
people that are in this discussion, it's going to be
key and important to making change.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Can you say a little bit more. I know there
has been so much research that has come out around
like relaxers. Of course, you know, so many of us
grew up getting relaxes, and I think we're having very
different conversations now, but I think now we're starting to
see more of the numbers and like the impact of
how relaxers and hair straighteners and different things like that
have impacted people's health. Can you say more about what
(29:30):
we've learned and what people might want to know about
those products specifically.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Back in the ninety there was a set of papers
that came out really looking at the impact of relaxers,
and it was really getting at LIE specifically. They were
interested in knowing whether or not a LIE relaxer due
to potential of burn and so on, was having impact
on at the time, like other health harms.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Previous work had.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Focused in on like skin health that was the primary focus,
like looking at dermatology and so on, but these were
the first kind of papers that were starting to look at,
for example, fibroids or breast cancer. And what has been
really interesting to see is this awareness that it's not
just LIE. For example, as many of us though, like
(30:17):
particularly those of us who've ever had a relaxer, you
see the person or maybe ourselves, like we mix up
the chemicals together and we can smell it and spell
as a particular kind of spell, and so this awareness
that there's other chemicals and so maybe back in I
think it was two thousand and eighteen, a paper came
(30:38):
out that documented what were the different types of chemicals
that were in hair relaxers and other hair products, and
it turned out there were many different types of that
gang about these hormonally active chemicals, there were also asthma
inducing chemicals. So in the black community community we also
have higher rates of asthma, for example. And that work
(30:59):
was actually done by Silent Spring Institute, I should say
as a part of us sharing a list of commonly
used hair products from a study that I ran, the
Greater New York Care Products Study. But what that made
people aware of is we should probably be looking at
more than just lie. We should look at other things.
(31:20):
And there was an awareness that these had from aldehyde
releasing agents in them. Formaldehyde is a carcinogen, in other words,
is a cancer causing agent. Who or the World Health
Organization and others have noted this, And so this interest
and curiosity around weight, maybe we should look at is
(31:43):
there a link with breast cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine cancer,
some of which are much more common among black women.
Black women are using these products more Black women have
higher coxposure to some of these chemicals. And indeed that's
what has been found in these studies is that now
have pointed to this with that increased awareness, being able
(32:04):
to say these companies may have known.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
That they are putting chemicals in that.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Could be harmful, and holding companies accountable accordingly for that.
So I think it's important that we're sitting in a
moment in time where we become aware of that. But
one thing I'll just note is the hair relaxers are
on for a very short period of time. One of
the things that we really have been trying to bring
attention to is that, going back to doctor Joy, what
(32:31):
you mentioned about chronic exposures, what about the maintenance products.
What are about the products that we use, whether we're
getting relaxers, whether we're doing natural hair that we're using
day and day out or weekend, week out, that keep
exposing us, our kids, our elders to these harmful products,
our chemicals and the implications on our health.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
More from our conversation after the break and you mentioned
you know, you want people not to kind of walk
away feeling hopeless. I mean, because it can be very
overwhelming to think about, like, oh my gosh, I got
to read all these labels, I got to remove all
(33:12):
these things. What are some steps that people can take
to you kind of start maybe minimizing, you said, like
cut back on their footprint in terms of maybe the
products and things that they're using.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, so there are safer products out there. So that's
like a first like I don't know, like I don't
know about you all, but like just that, like I
hope that that creates room to breathe. There are safer
products out there. Is there room for war safer products? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Is there opportunity and for innovation and holding companies accountable?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yes. So the kind of things that I often encourage
people to do is.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
We many of us have phones. We use all sorts
of apps on our phones. Download an app, find one
that you really like. Some of the apps will actually
you scan a product in the store and they tell
you, you know what this nih maybe try this other one.
So they'll give suggestions and alternatives. We'll give you an
actual rating. Like some people like seeing numbers. They like
(34:08):
to see red, green, yellow, and so like again I
mentioned a couple, I'll go back and say things like
the environmental work in group Skin Deep BAP. I also
want to say that I have no affiliation with any
of these organizations, but Yuka and detox me these are
different apps that folks can see and be mindful of.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Reading labels helps. I will say again in the United States,
we do not require companies to have to disclose everything.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Okay, So there are certain things that you will see
on a label. For example, you might see something like pairavin,
like methyl pair of it or ethyl pairvin, and those
are chemicals that are put into products.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
To keep the bacterial growth down.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Important also important to know that if it's something you're
going to be using all the time daily, those chemicals
do impact the intecrint system and so they've been linked
to a number of different health outcomes, So you might
want to think about that fragrance. Fragrance is actually hundreds
of different chemicals. So you'll see fragrance on a package.
It's many different things. And to hold the fragrance in
(35:15):
our plasticizers like these big words like balades and so on,
and those are the chemicals that have been linked to
like pre term birth, hypertensive disorders of pregnancy, so preeclampsia
and so on, and so just thinking about maybe there's
time periods that we use less of those we choose
to during pregnancy, make a different choice, and so we
(35:36):
can kind of team up use our own ability to
read the labels and say, Okay, I'm not going to
I'm gonna say away from Fragrance because says Fragrance, and
I'm gonna choose something else or using those apps. And
then I mentioned some of these other things that people
can do within their homes, like there's ways to I do.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Not have time to do this, but if you so choose,
I tell people, maybe choose one thing you can change.
So for some people it might be I had a
friend who was really inspired to change. I was not
this person, but she was.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Like, I'm going to change my deodorant. I was like great,
So she started making her own deodorant. I did not
have time to make my own deordorant, but I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Glad she chose one thing. So maybe if you're one
thing might not be.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Please don't go home, or if you're at home, don't
go to your letting clouse or wherever you store your
products and throw out all your products.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Don't do that, but choose one thing that you might change.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
In order to start moving the needle towards lower exposures.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
You've mentioned several times that there is more space also
to hold like companies and corporations accountable. What might that
look like, doctor James Hatt? Is that voting with our
dollars and like not buying these products? Writing letters to
the companies like what does you know? Holding them accountable
actually look like?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I think it's all of those things. I think real
innovation starts happening. And I'll give you an example of this.
So maybe back in around like twenty ten, so my
colleague and I reached out to a major manufacturer. I
won't name who it was, but we reached out to manufacturer.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
We've looked at the market.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
The market is very green when it comes to products
that are marketed towards white individuals and individuals who have
straight and not textured hair. We don't see that for
people of color, particularly black women and people who have
very curly hair. We would love to work with you
to innovate around this, and to not just.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Innovate around this, but to ensure that we are contributing
to making products that are safer. So we really wanted
to work with this major manufacturer to do so, and
they said to us, there is no market for this.
Black people will not buy safer products. It will cost
more money and they will not purchase it. I had
two issues with this, or maybe even more than two,
(37:52):
but I just want to highlight the two that came
to my mind.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
One, we are one of the largest We meaning black
women are one of the largest consumers of personal care
products and particularly the largest consumer of hair products.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Like we will buy products too, we will pay a
lot for them. So I just was dumbfounded. But what
was being said.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And we kept trying, and we just kind of didn't
go anywhere. But then what happened. You start seeing black
women take up arms with this and push.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
For new products.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Now a part of that wasn't really around safer products.
It was around products that were marketed to natural hair.
So we started seeing a push towards that. We also
started seeing pop ups of companies that were marketing towards
our children with safer products. And we did it ourselves.
We saw the gap in the market and we said,
(38:52):
this is what we're going to do. Now, everybody's going
to start their own company. And we certainly have seen
a huge boom in social media around people do it
yourself and all of this, and certainly that's a thing,
but I think a part of it is making sure.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
That we do have money to spend on this. We
can talk with our money and if that means we're
going to purchase products that are safer and healthier for
us being able to do so, so do your research.
One two. Really, when I say hold companies accountable, I
think when there's harm done, we often won't report it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
It takes up time, it takes up issue. And there
are companies that they were developed by a black woman
and then sold and then I don't know about you,
I've experienced this, where then the product if you scalp
at all that and I'm like, oh, nevermind, I just
go on to another product. Right to that company, right
to the federal government, right to the state government, right
(39:51):
to your local government, and start getting that done. Some
of the biggest innovation that has happened around policy and
regulation in this space is actually at the state level,
So do not be afraid to get involved at the
state level. One thing I'll bring up in this space
is what's slowly happening across the country is.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
A deregulation of the beauty industry through.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Bills that are being passed to make it not necessary
for people to be licensed and on them want to do.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Hair and on the one hand, like sure can maybe.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Innovate around economics, and that's important, but it's also important
here is a part of our body.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
What we put on our hair is a part of
our body. We're seeing that with braining hare for example,
right like containing lead and other like harmful chemicals.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
It sits on our scalp, It's absorbed through our body.
We put this on young children. We know lead can
actually impact young children self impacts all people's health, but
particularly young children.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
And so this is problematic.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
If we don't have people in place that know about this,
it can have real harm in our community. So being
able to advocate at the state level, going to your
state legislator, seeing who was involved in the passing of
these bills, and really making sure that people see and
hear from you about the potential health harm to impacts
of these laws and policies can make a real difference.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
In the world.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
What gives you hope about this work, doctor James Hid.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
When I started this twenty five years ago, I remember
people having no clue what I was talking about. What
are you saying you want to look at consumer products
and chemicals and women's health, What does that even mean?
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And that you're interested in how this impacts health disparies.
We don't know what you're talking about. In the hair
product space, it was people use shampoo, conditioner, they wash
it out and it's done.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
What do you say, you know?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
I'm like, that's not my lived experience. I sure I
use shampoo and conditioner, but I also use list of
other products. I am inspired and I see hope in
conversations that people are having about an awareness that they
have out environmental factors in women's health. The fact that
we can have this conversation, doctor Joy, in that it's
(42:07):
becoming a more mainstream conversation that people are aware that
it's not just what you eat.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It's not just the water you drink.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Or the air you breathe, but it's also the products
that you use that can have real impact on your health.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I have learned so much in talking with you, just
for this brief time. I feel like there are so
many more questions I have for you, but cannot take
up all of your time for sure. But where can
we stay connected with your work? Doctor James? How what
is your website as well as any social media handles
that you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
First of all, thank you again for having me. It's
been wonderful. You can feel free to stay connected with me.
I can be found on a Harvard chan School of
Public Health's website under the James Todd Lab. We are
also the Environmental Reproductive Justice Labs, so you can feel
free to google us that way and find us there.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
You can follow some of the work that we've done
through the Beauty plus Justice podcast, which is available on
Apple and Spotify platforms, and we are also good president
on social media through the James Toodlab. So we would
love to have you all continue to connect and reach
out to us through those different platforms.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Perfect We'll make sure to include all of that information
in the show notes. Thank you so much for sending
some time with us today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Thank you so much for having me. I have a
wonderful rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Now, don't go throwing everything in your bathroom away, y'all.
Remember baby steps and small changes are a huge benefit
to your health in the long run. I learned so
much from this conversation and I'm happy that she was
able to join us today. So learn more about doctor
James Todd and her work. Be sure to check out
the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
Session four four nine, and don't forget to text two
(43:44):
of your girls right now and tell them to check
out the episode. Did you know that you could leave
us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast.
If you have topics you'd like us to discuss, drop
us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for
Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
(44:06):
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and join us over in our Patreon for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. We can't wait
to see you there. You can join us at community
dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced
by Lisa Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
(44:29):
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,
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