Welcome back to our minisode series, "I Have Some Thoughts." These short episodes are designed to contextualize the pop culture moments we're currently paying attention to through a mental health lens. Pop culture isn't just fun to chat about, it can reveal important information about how we relate, cope, and understand ourselves. Join us each Friday to hear Dr. Joy share her thoughts about the happenings of the week.
This week, we're chatting about Chadwick Boseman and Malcolm Jamal Warner's family disputes over their estates, Ryan Clark's departure from ESPN, and Gen Z's difficulty asking to be paid back.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hey, y'all, welcome back to I Have some Thoughts, our
weekly mini sold series where we are covering all things
pop culture, but of course from a mental health lens.
And I am joined today again by Elise.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, Alise, Hey, doctor Joey. How are you.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm good? How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm doing well. I am super excited because the Black
Panther casting was announced this week for Black Panther three,
and although the movie is coming out in twenty twenty eight,
I'm just I'm a static. Yes, agreed, agreed.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I have been very excited. I didn't know that they
were necessarily planning on continuing the Black Panther story, but
I'm very excited that this is the way we're going.
I feel like this is the best way forward right
like that still honors who Chadwick was for the carecter,
but also continuing to move the storyline forward exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I also love David Johnson. He was one of the
main characters in the first season and second season of Industry,
which is one of my favorite TV shows. He also
was in the rom com Ryan Lane and was fabulous
in that, so it's very different to see him in
this action movie. A part of this huge franchise, but
(01:21):
I do think the casting is.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Excellent, so I'm very excited about that me too, agreed.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay, so let's get into our first topic today. Recent
legal disputes involving the estates of Chadwick Boseman and Malcolm
Jamal Warner have put a spotlight on the complicated realities
families can face after the loss of a loved one.
Last week, Malcolm Jamal Warner's widow filed a lawsuit against
(01:47):
his mother, claiming she hadn't been paid the one point
two million oh to her as part of the pre
nups she signed. A few days after, Chadwick Boseman's brother
filed to suit Chadwick's widow, claiming that she failed to
properly distribute Chatwick's remaining assets. In Chadwick's case, specifically, he
didn't have a will in place at the time of
his passing. While the cases involve different legal circumstances, they've
(02:12):
definitely sparked a broader conversation about how grief can become
intertwined with conflict over money, decision making, and how to
honor a loved one's memory. And I've been thinking about
how can having difficult conversations now become one final act
of love for the people we care about, And I
know we actually have an episode about this, So session
(02:34):
three ninety three is about estate planning and about what
to do with your assets and how to plan for
the future when you are gone. But my question for you,
doctor Joy is what emotional barriers can keep families from
planning for a crisis with wills, with the state planning,
or with end of life wishes.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, you know, I'm glad you brought up that session
because that's definitely what I thought about the conversation I
had with Attorney Griffin, just about all of the ways
that sometimes we are negligent in making sure that we
are preparing ourselves to lead this place right, in preparing
our families. And I do think it is one last
act of love to kind of make sure that your
affairs are in order. But as we talked about in
(03:15):
that episode, it can be really difficult for lots of
different reasons. I think the main one, though, is that
we just don't do well with these kinds of conversations,
right like death, end of life kinds of things. Nobody
wants to talk about that, and of course it's very difficult.
You know, you don't want to even think about what
happens to your kids and your loved ones after you're gone.
(03:36):
But it is a natural part of life, right, Like
that is one thing we can all be certain of,
is that we will leave at some point. And I
think it is just so difficult to have these conversations
that it often feels much easier to just avoid it
and not think about because of course you won't be there,
right And so I think we don't always think about
like the consequences like we're seeing in these cases that
(03:56):
can happen if things are not in order. I also
think that just historically, finances and estates and all of
those things are really difficult to talk about with families.
It often introduces different kinds of power dynamics. Do you
get into comparison kinds of things. You know, there may
even be some paranoia involved in, you know, like kind
(04:18):
of disclosing maybe how much you have. And so I
think that there are those kinds of things that make
these kinds of conversations difficult as well, But it is necessary.
It is a necessary part of kind of family planning
and thinking about what happens in life for your loved
ones after you're no longer here.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Thank you for that. I think something you said that
really resonated with me is that, like it is easier
to just avoid talking about it, Like it is weird,
whether you're talking to your parents and saying like, hey,
you guys aren't going to be here one day, or
you're talking about yourself, like I'm not going to be
here one day. What are the words that you maybe
have told yourself, your family members, your kids about that
(04:58):
that doesn't fearmonger them but helps them accept that this
is the natural part of life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I am guilty of this myself, right, Like my husband
and I have been dragging our feet in doing this,
but it is on like the top of I to
do this, Like I already have the lawyer picked out
and everything because it is important, right, But it feels
so uncomfortable to think about, like my baby's being here
without me, right, and like what is that duje to them?
Like it you do get, at least for myself, Like
I get caught in the sadness and the trauma of
(05:26):
it all right, like just thinking about it, but also
wanting them to be okay. And there are things that
I want them to have for their lives, regardless of
whether I'm here or not. And I know that that
is an important part of those things happening. And also
I think when we do see public cases like this,
it also is a very sobering reminder to us that
are still here that hey, this is an unfortunate kind
(05:49):
of thing that can happen if the proper paperwork is
not put into place right now. Unfortunately, sometimes we see
even when there is a will, there can be contesting,
and you know, like there is also still family fallout sometimes,
but I think you are you put yourself and your
family in a far better place to be able to
kind of navigate those difficult kinds of things when you
(06:10):
do have things put in please. And I think we
see some of this fallout after somebody has passed because
it is a grief reaction, right, so you can maybe
it feels less comfortable to say, like I'm angry at
this person for passing, but instead I'm going to like
act out with my brother and fight over family assets
because that feels more comfortable, even if it is still
(06:31):
like a difficult situation. Sometimes those kinds of things are
easier to express then I feel really sad and heartbroken
that mom or dad is gone.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Okay, moving right along. Last week, ESPN analyst Ryan Clark
was abruptly let go during a commercial break after twelve
years at ESPN. He spoke out about the situation on
an episode of the Pivot podcast and became really emotional
as he shared the pressure he felt to tone himself
down to match what media executives wanted from him. Clark
(07:02):
shared that he knew he couldn't be too black. Despite
trying to adjust, he was still fired, and he often
wondered whether things would have turned out differently had he
made himself more palatable. Now many don't agree that is
why he was let go, but it does open a
broader conversation on navigating corporate spaces while black and showing
(07:24):
up authentically at work. Talk to me about how code
switching and this self monitoring can maybe have a toll
on someone over time.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean work is difficult just because it's work,
right Like, even if you love what you do, it's work,
right like. It is a sometimes grueling part of our
lived experience. And so I think when you lay on
top of that, this pressure to code switch and like
to feel like you need to adjust in morph who
you are to fit into this place where you spend
(07:56):
so many hours. It is taxing, I think, both physically
and mentally. And I think people who are not people
of color, black people specifically don't always understand like the
additional burden that it is to not just come to work,
but to also feel like you have to put on
a certain mask or armor to just be in these spaces.
(08:17):
And I think you know, unfortunately, what we see from
this very public example is that you can do all
of the contorting and code switching and you know, managing
and massaging your image and your words, and it's still
not be enough. Right it just does not matter. And
if you find yourself in spaces where you are feeling
that pressure, the sad truth is that it does not
(08:40):
matter sometimes, right like, people will have their view and
their perspective of who you are and no amount of
you contorting yourself will matter because they've already developed the
story they want to tell about who you are. And
so I think it is a reminder for us that
sometimes we can do all of that stuff and it
not be enough. And so again I understand, we got
(09:00):
to keep the lights on, like we have responsibilities, and
so unfortunately we will sometimes find ourselves in corporate spaces
where we have to do some of this kind of
playing the game. But I think it's important to know
that it is like a role that you're playing and
not let that become like your identity and not do
so much kind of playing the game and contorting yourself
that you don't even recognize who you are outside of
(09:23):
the office.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
How does someone begin to, I don't want to say,
like draw harder boundaries, but start to take so much
kind of personal stake out of the person who they
are when they show up at work, even if it
is the work they enjoy. Because I could go to
happy hour after work, you can be a part of
an erg, you can you know, do fun volunteer things
(09:46):
on the weekend, but still feel like I am performing
this self and not being me. How does one start
to kind of draw those lines and make that separation.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you asked that, because
I think all of the things that you've named are
really important, right, Like making sure that your life feels
full outside of the office is one way to kind
of add a barrier there, or add a bit of
a buffer too. Okay, I got to go do these things,
but these are the things that actually make my life right,
Like my life is not entirely made up of work.
These are the things that really helped me to feel
(10:18):
restored and fulfilled. So I do think that that is
an important piece of this, is making sure that your
life outside of the workspace feels very fulfilling. But I
also think you have to think about, like what kinds
of things feel okay for you to kind of maybe
bend on, and what kinds of things do not right,
Because at the end of the day, you have to
go home with yourself and to yourself, and so there
(10:40):
are some things that may just feel like completely not
non negotiable to you, right, So you know when you
are calling in to question your integrity, your values, like
the kinds of things that are really important to you,
those things I think are not things that you want
to kind of put a performance on.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
But if it is like, oh, I'm somebody who's really
private and I don't really want a social life in
the break room during lunch, right, could you do a
little bending there? Right? Because we know a lot of
times black people will get this comment on their performance.
Reports that they seem aloof or they're not a real
team player, right, And so sometimes you can get around
some of that by just offering up things that aren't
(11:17):
really important to you, right. So I will typically tell
people to have one or two kinds of things that
you talk about with people at work that really don't
matter to you, right. So maybe that is like the
kinds of TV shows that you're watching, or the sports
that you're involved in, or the sports that your kids play,
or you know, like things that feel important can connect
you to other people, but they are not like central
(11:38):
to who you are. So sometimes volunteering those kinds of things,
you know, can make it seem like you're more of
a team player than Maybe you're still not sharing anything
really private about you, but you are kind of playing
the game. And so looking at those kinds of things
that aren't really central to your identity as places to negotiate,
I think is a place where you can look at
how you can draw some boundaries there.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I love that. I love that sometimes you do have
to fake it till you make.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
It exactly more from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Okay, so last one is, you know, I'm being a
little bit of a Generation trader, but gen Z is
going broke because they're afraid to ask their friends to
pay them back. A new report from Zell found that
many gen Z adults are going into debt not because
of what they're spending on themselves, but because they're covering
(12:30):
expenses for friends and family and struggling to ask for
the money back, whether it's concert tickets, vacations, dinners, or
group outings. Seventy six percent of gen Z respondents say
that they fronted the costs and weren't fully imbursed. Nearly
half reported falling into debt as a result, with many
(12:50):
saying they avoid bringing it up because money conversations feel
too awkward or uncomfortable, and the trend has been given
a name of payment avoid Why is asking for what
we're owed so uncomfortable specifically financially?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, I mean it kind of feels related in some
way to our first topic, right talking about like estate planning,
but on a very different level. I think what we
are often seeing with gen Z and you know, even
people younger, is that there is a lot of anxiety
around certain kinds of conversations. Some of that I feel
like is developmental, but some of that I worry is
(13:27):
becoming a more consistent kind of pattern that we really
do want to get a handle on, right. And so
what we're talking about is assertiveness, right, like the ability
to assert your needs and trust that people can take
your needs seriously and that you can get your needs
met right. And so often we are worried that you know,
you'll get some kind of like nasty reaction or that
(13:47):
people will you know, maybe be judgmental because you ask
a certain question. But the truth is, if there's an
understanding that I'm like paying for this upfront and then
everybody's gonna pay me back, then that should be the
expectation in the group, right, And so you asking for
the expectations to be met that we've all kind of shared,
I think is okay. Now, I do think you have
(14:10):
to be careful not being the one to kind of
volunteer your card or like volunteer to kind of upfront money,
especially if there has been a history of people not
paying you back. But if there is an expectation that
you will be paid back, then I think it is
something that is a muscle that you have to flex,
that you have to practice, just like any other skill
we learn is this feels a little awkward to ask,
(14:32):
but you know you didn't pay me back for the
Beyonce tickets? Like, when can I get my money now?
I have also seen though, and you have to have
a lot of trust in the group to do this.
I have also seen groups kind of have a shared
account for things like this, right, So like maybe you
have a shared checking account that, like the friend group
uses when y'all go out to eat or when you're
(14:53):
ready for concert takeiats, so that it's almost like you
are already kind of front loading the money. And then
maybe the most responsible person in the group, you know,
kind is the one that has a card, but you
all have access. That could be another way to kind
of get at some of this without maybe some of
the difficult conversations. But I do think again, navigating difficult
conversations are just a part of us being human and
(15:15):
being adults, And so the sooner that you can practice
having what could be an awkward conversation, the better off
you will be.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Do you think there is some type of correlation between
like intimacy and the ability to have financial conversations? Like
what does it cost us when we avoid those? Even
outside of just our wallets.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, So I think that the financial conversation piece is
just like emblematic of the other parts of the relationship,
because if it's difficult to talk about finances, what else
are you avoiding talking about? Right? So I think this
is just like one small part, you know, like are
you also comfortable talking about like maybe even bigger issues
that also really establish intimacy in a relationship, right, And
(16:02):
I think navigating difficult conversations actually deepens intimacy in relationships
because you realize that maybe we can have a little
bit of disagreement, or maybe I can bring up something
awkward to you and then we're okay, right, And so
I think when we avoid difficult conversations, we also really
take away our ability to strengthen that muscle because we
(16:23):
don't realize, hey, I can do this difficult thing and
I'm still okay, and the relationship even got stronger. Now
we can bring up even more difficult things between one another.
And so I do think it can be an example
of like intimacy being difficult because you're afraid of the response, right,
Like you're afraid that people will judge you or maybe
see you differently because you ask this difficult thing when
(16:45):
the truth is that in strong relationship you can ask difficult,
awkward things and the relationship continues and it doesn't mean
people have like a sour attitude about who you are.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, well thank you for that. I think that's a
perfect piece of advice. Or no to end on, like,
have a difficult conversation today, Yes, what's that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Thing that you have been avoiding? Let's get some practice
in making having those difficult conversations. Well, thanks, Elise, those
were great topics. Always excited to hear what we're gonna
be chatting about every week. And if there are things
happening in your circles that you want us to weigh
in on, please share those topics with us. You can
do that at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash mailbox.
And until next time, take good care of yourself, bry y'all,
Hey, y'all, welcome back to I Have some Thoughts, our
weekly mini sold series where we are covering all things
pop culture, but of course from a mental health lens.
And I am joined today again by Elise.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, Alise, Hey, doctor Joey. How are you.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm good? How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm doing well. I am super excited because the Black
Panther casting was announced this week for Black Panther three,
and although the movie is coming out in twenty twenty eight,
I'm just I'm a static. Yes, agreed, agreed.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I have been very excited. I didn't know that they
were necessarily planning on continuing the Black Panther story, but
I'm very excited that this is the way we're going.
I feel like this is the best way forward right
like that still honors who Chadwick was for the carecter,
but also continuing to move the storyline forward exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I also love David Johnson. He was one of the
main characters in the first season and second season of Industry,
which is one of my favorite TV shows. He also
was in the rom com Ryan Lane and was fabulous
in that, so it's very different to see him in
this action movie. A part of this huge franchise, but
(01:21):
I do think the casting is.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Excellent, so I'm very excited about that me too, agreed.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay, so let's get into our first topic today. Recent
legal disputes involving the estates of Chadwick Boseman and Malcolm
Jamal Warner have put a spotlight on the complicated realities
families can face after the loss of a loved one.
Last week, Malcolm Jamal Warner's widow filed a lawsuit against
(01:47):
his mother, claiming she hadn't been paid the one point
two million oh to her as part of the pre
nups she signed. A few days after, Chadwick Boseman's brother
filed to suit Chadwick's widow, claiming that she failed to
properly distribute Chatwick's remaining assets. In Chadwick's case, specifically, he
didn't have a will in place at the time of
his passing. While the cases involve different legal circumstances, they've
(02:12):
definitely sparked a broader conversation about how grief can become
intertwined with conflict over money, decision making, and how to
honor a loved one's memory. And I've been thinking about
how can having difficult conversations now become one final act
of love for the people we care about, And I
know we actually have an episode about this, So session
(02:34):
three ninety three is about estate planning and about what
to do with your assets and how to plan for
the future when you are gone. But my question for you,
doctor Joy is what emotional barriers can keep families from
planning for a crisis with wills, with the state planning,
or with end of life wishes.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, you know, I'm glad you brought up that session
because that's definitely what I thought about the conversation I
had with Attorney Griffin, just about all of the ways
that sometimes we are negligent in making sure that we
are preparing ourselves to lead this place right, in preparing
our families. And I do think it is one last
act of love to kind of make sure that your
affairs are in order. But as we talked about in
(03:15):
that episode, it can be really difficult for lots of
different reasons. I think the main one, though, is that
we just don't do well with these kinds of conversations,
right like death, end of life kinds of things. Nobody
wants to talk about that, and of course it's very difficult.
You know, you don't want to even think about what
happens to your kids and your loved ones after you're gone.
(03:36):
But it is a natural part of life, right, Like
that is one thing we can all be certain of,
is that we will leave at some point. And I
think it is just so difficult to have these conversations
that it often feels much easier to just avoid it
and not think about because of course you won't be there,
right And so I think we don't always think about
like the consequences like we're seeing in these cases that
(03:56):
can happen if things are not in order. I also
think that just historically, finances and estates and all of
those things are really difficult to talk about with families.
It often introduces different kinds of power dynamics. Do you
get into comparison kinds of things. You know, there may
even be some paranoia involved in, you know, like kind
(04:18):
of disclosing maybe how much you have. And so I
think that there are those kinds of things that make
these kinds of conversations difficult as well, But it is necessary.
It is a necessary part of kind of family planning
and thinking about what happens in life for your loved
ones after you're no longer here.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Thank you for that. I think something you said that
really resonated with me is that, like it is easier
to just avoid talking about it, Like it is weird,
whether you're talking to your parents and saying like, hey,
you guys aren't going to be here one day, or
you're talking about yourself, like I'm not going to be
here one day. What are the words that you maybe
have told yourself, your family members, your kids about that
(04:58):
that doesn't fearmonger them but helps them accept that this
is the natural part of life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I am guilty of this myself, right, Like my husband
and I have been dragging our feet in doing this,
but it is on like the top of I to
do this, Like I already have the lawyer picked out
and everything because it is important, right, But it feels
so uncomfortable to think about, like my baby's being here
without me, right, and like what is that duje to them?
Like it you do get, at least for myself, Like
I get caught in the sadness and the trauma of
(05:26):
it all right, like just thinking about it, but also
wanting them to be okay. And there are things that
I want them to have for their lives, regardless of
whether I'm here or not. And I know that that
is an important part of those things happening. And also
I think when we do see public cases like this,
it also is a very sobering reminder to us that
are still here that hey, this is an unfortunate kind
(05:49):
of thing that can happen if the proper paperwork is
not put into place right now. Unfortunately, sometimes we see
even when there is a will, there can be contesting,
and you know, like there is also still family fallout sometimes,
but I think you are you put yourself and your
family in a far better place to be able to
kind of navigate those difficult kinds of things when you
(06:10):
do have things put in please. And I think we
see some of this fallout after somebody has passed because
it is a grief reaction, right, so you can maybe
it feels less comfortable to say, like I'm angry at
this person for passing, but instead I'm going to like
act out with my brother and fight over family assets
because that feels more comfortable, even if it is still
(06:31):
like a difficult situation. Sometimes those kinds of things are
easier to express then I feel really sad and heartbroken
that mom or dad is gone.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Okay, moving right along. Last week, ESPN analyst Ryan Clark
was abruptly let go during a commercial break after twelve
years at ESPN. He spoke out about the situation on
an episode of the Pivot podcast and became really emotional
as he shared the pressure he felt to tone himself
down to match what media executives wanted from him. Clark
(07:02):
shared that he knew he couldn't be too black. Despite
trying to adjust, he was still fired, and he often
wondered whether things would have turned out differently had he
made himself more palatable. Now many don't agree that is
why he was let go, but it does open a
broader conversation on navigating corporate spaces while black and showing
(07:24):
up authentically at work. Talk to me about how code
switching and this self monitoring can maybe have a toll
on someone over time.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean work is difficult just because it's work,
right Like, even if you love what you do, it's work,
right like. It is a sometimes grueling part of our
lived experience. And so I think when you lay on
top of that, this pressure to code switch and like
to feel like you need to adjust in morph who
you are to fit into this place where you spend
(07:56):
so many hours. It is taxing, I think, both physically
and mentally. And I think people who are not people
of color, black people specifically don't always understand like the
additional burden that it is to not just come to work,
but to also feel like you have to put on
a certain mask or armor to just be in these spaces.
(08:17):
And I think you know, unfortunately, what we see from
this very public example is that you can do all
of the contorting and code switching and you know, managing
and massaging your image and your words, and it's still
not be enough. Right it just does not matter. And
if you find yourself in spaces where you are feeling
that pressure, the sad truth is that it does not
(08:40):
matter sometimes, right like, people will have their view and
their perspective of who you are and no amount of
you contorting yourself will matter because they've already developed the
story they want to tell about who you are. And
so I think it is a reminder for us that
sometimes we can do all of that stuff and it
not be enough. And so again I understand, we got
(09:00):
to keep the lights on, like we have responsibilities, and
so unfortunately we will sometimes find ourselves in corporate spaces
where we have to do some of this kind of
playing the game. But I think it's important to know
that it is like a role that you're playing and
not let that become like your identity and not do
so much kind of playing the game and contorting yourself
that you don't even recognize who you are outside of
(09:23):
the office.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
How does someone begin to, I don't want to say,
like draw harder boundaries, but start to take so much
kind of personal stake out of the person who they
are when they show up at work, even if it
is the work they enjoy. Because I could go to
happy hour after work, you can be a part of
an erg, you can you know, do fun volunteer things
(09:46):
on the weekend, but still feel like I am performing
this self and not being me. How does one start
to kind of draw those lines and make that separation.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you asked that, because
I think all of the things that you've named are
really important, right, Like making sure that your life feels
full outside of the office is one way to kind
of add a barrier there, or add a bit of
a buffer too. Okay, I got to go do these things,
but these are the things that actually make my life right,
Like my life is not entirely made up of work.
These are the things that really helped me to feel
(10:18):
restored and fulfilled. So I do think that that is
an important piece of this, is making sure that your
life outside of the workspace feels very fulfilling. But I
also think you have to think about, like what kinds
of things feel okay for you to kind of maybe
bend on, and what kinds of things do not right,
Because at the end of the day, you have to
go home with yourself and to yourself, and so there
(10:40):
are some things that may just feel like completely not
non negotiable to you, right, So you know when you
are calling in to question your integrity, your values, like
the kinds of things that are really important to you,
those things I think are not things that you want
to kind of put a performance on.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
But if it is like, oh, I'm somebody who's really
private and I don't really want a social life in
the break room during lunch, right, could you do a
little bending there? Right? Because we know a lot of
times black people will get this comment on their performance.
Reports that they seem aloof or they're not a real
team player, right, And so sometimes you can get around
some of that by just offering up things that aren't
(11:17):
really important to you, right. So I will typically tell
people to have one or two kinds of things that
you talk about with people at work that really don't
matter to you, right. So maybe that is like the
kinds of TV shows that you're watching, or the sports
that you're involved in, or the sports that your kids play,
or you know, like things that feel important can connect
you to other people, but they are not like central
(11:38):
to who you are. So sometimes volunteering those kinds of things,
you know, can make it seem like you're more of
a team player than Maybe you're still not sharing anything
really private about you, but you are kind of playing
the game. And so looking at those kinds of things
that aren't really central to your identity as places to negotiate,
I think is a place where you can look at
how you can draw some boundaries there.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I love that. I love that sometimes you do have
to fake it till you make.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
It exactly more from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Okay, so last one is, you know, I'm being a
little bit of a Generation trader, but gen Z is
going broke because they're afraid to ask their friends to
pay them back. A new report from Zell found that
many gen Z adults are going into debt not because
of what they're spending on themselves, but because they're covering
(12:30):
expenses for friends and family and struggling to ask for
the money back, whether it's concert tickets, vacations, dinners, or
group outings. Seventy six percent of gen Z respondents say
that they fronted the costs and weren't fully imbursed. Nearly
half reported falling into debt as a result, with many
(12:50):
saying they avoid bringing it up because money conversations feel
too awkward or uncomfortable, and the trend has been given
a name of payment avoid Why is asking for what
we're owed so uncomfortable specifically financially?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, I mean it kind of feels related in some
way to our first topic, right talking about like estate planning,
but on a very different level. I think what we
are often seeing with gen Z and you know, even
people younger, is that there is a lot of anxiety
around certain kinds of conversations. Some of that I feel
like is developmental, but some of that I worry is
(13:27):
becoming a more consistent kind of pattern that we really
do want to get a handle on, right. And so
what we're talking about is assertiveness, right, like the ability
to assert your needs and trust that people can take
your needs seriously and that you can get your needs
met right. And so often we are worried that you know,
you'll get some kind of like nasty reaction or that
(13:47):
people will you know, maybe be judgmental because you ask
a certain question. But the truth is, if there's an
understanding that I'm like paying for this upfront and then
everybody's gonna pay me back, then that should be the
expectation in the group, right, And so you asking for
the expectations to be met that we've all kind of shared,
I think is okay. Now, I do think you have
(14:10):
to be careful not being the one to kind of
volunteer your card or like volunteer to kind of upfront money,
especially if there has been a history of people not
paying you back. But if there is an expectation that
you will be paid back, then I think it is
something that is a muscle that you have to flex,
that you have to practice, just like any other skill
we learn is this feels a little awkward to ask,
(14:32):
but you know you didn't pay me back for the
Beyonce tickets? Like, when can I get my money now?
I have also seen though, and you have to have
a lot of trust in the group to do this.
I have also seen groups kind of have a shared
account for things like this, right, So like maybe you
have a shared checking account that, like the friend group
uses when y'all go out to eat or when you're
(14:53):
ready for concert takeiats, so that it's almost like you
are already kind of front loading the money. And then
maybe the most responsible person in the group, you know,
kind is the one that has a card, but you
all have access. That could be another way to kind
of get at some of this without maybe some of
the difficult conversations. But I do think again, navigating difficult
conversations are just a part of us being human and
(15:15):
being adults, And so the sooner that you can practice
having what could be an awkward conversation, the better off
you will be.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Do you think there is some type of correlation between
like intimacy and the ability to have financial conversations? Like
what does it cost us when we avoid those? Even
outside of just our wallets.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, So I think that the financial conversation piece is
just like emblematic of the other parts of the relationship,
because if it's difficult to talk about finances, what else
are you avoiding talking about? Right? So I think this
is just like one small part, you know, like are
you also comfortable talking about like maybe even bigger issues
that also really establish intimacy in a relationship, right, And
(16:02):
I think navigating difficult conversations actually deepens intimacy in relationships
because you realize that maybe we can have a little
bit of disagreement, or maybe I can bring up something
awkward to you and then we're okay, right, And so
I think when we avoid difficult conversations, we also really
take away our ability to strengthen that muscle because we
(16:23):
don't realize, hey, I can do this difficult thing and
I'm still okay, and the relationship even got stronger. Now
we can bring up even more difficult things between one another.
And so I do think it can be an example
of like intimacy being difficult because you're afraid of the response, right,
Like you're afraid that people will judge you or maybe
see you differently because you ask this difficult thing when
(16:45):
the truth is that in strong relationship you can ask difficult,
awkward things and the relationship continues and it doesn't mean
people have like a sour attitude about who you are.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, well thank you for that. I think that's a
perfect piece of advice. Or no to end on, like,
have a difficult conversation today, Yes, what's that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Thing that you have been avoiding? Let's get some practice
in making having those difficult conversations. Well, thanks, Elise, those
were great topics. Always excited to hear what we're gonna
be chatting about every week. And if there are things
happening in your circles that you want us to weigh
in on, please share those topics with us. You can
do that at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash mailbox.
And until next time, take good care of yourself, bry y'all,
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