Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pleasure to welcome Doug Ellsworth back to the program from
the Secure the Grid Coalition. Much to talk about, Doug.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Good morning, Goring, Gary, Thanks for having me on, you bet.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's great to have you back. I mentioned the other
day that we have had one administration after another that
doesn't seem to see the urgency in hardening our electrical
grid and protecting the grid against attacks from adversaries or
mother nature potentially. And I got an email after that comment, Doug,
(00:33):
you said that this might be different now the second
Trump administration, because he had signed an order his first
time around, it was pretty much ignored. But he's learned
things now, right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We're very positive that he has, Yes, sir. He first
established Executive Order number one three eight six five kiled
Coordinating National Resistance to Electromagnetic Pulses, and that was issued
in twenty nineteen, and it directed various federal agencies to
(01:09):
enhance national resistance against the MPs, and there really was
nothing done. It had date certain deadlines for deliverables from them.
They blew them off. With one exception. DHS released in
twenty twenty, way late from what its timeline was supposed
(01:32):
to be. What they called a Program Status report Gary.
This was seventeen and twenty four words. That's it, less
than four pages. And actually it even claimed that they
had a pilot program which was actually US Air Force
(01:52):
initiated program under general cost. So there really has been nothing.
They just you know, forgot about it. A second executive
order by President Trump was one three nine to two OHO,
which was securing the US bulk power system from hardware
(02:14):
or cyber implants in the supply chain. This came as
a result of a beyond design basic circuitry found in
a large power transformer and a second one was carted
(02:35):
off from Houston from the you know, from the port
in Houston and carted the Sanda National Lab where this
was found. Lathan Sadler, who at the time was it
was formerly it just left the National Security Council as
Director of Intelligence, inadvertently mentioned in a radio interview that
(02:59):
they found something in there that could turn that transformer off.
We continue to buy transformers, large power transformers and insert
them in our grid.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Manufactured manufactured in China, right, A lot of them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
They undercut the Yeah, most of the large power transformers
are we import from overseas. They would be cost prohibitive
to utilities, they say to buy domestic made ones.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
A lot of this comes down, Doug, as I've learned
talking to you over the years, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,
and this is like any commission. They'll have new sheriffs
in town now with a new administration, right with Donald Trump,
assuming that this is on his radar, and you you
believe that it is right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Gary, The incoming administration has made it known that it
wants to do away with the abuses of the revolving door,
which leads to regulatory capture. Regulatory capture is the term
we use, and it exists where a regulatory body does
(04:10):
the bidding of the industry it's opposed to be regulating.
So yes, and there's much that can be done there
to send them a clear message. All of the five
commission commission of five member commissions, the president can relieve
(04:33):
the chairman of those commissions, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
being one, can relieve the chairman, reducing him to the
status of regular commissioner on the other four and appoint
one of the other commissioners to be chairman. He can
do that unilaterally without a congressional approval. Because they've already
(04:53):
been they're already commissioners. All of those five man commissioners
have to be bipartisans that can have as many as
a maximum of three of the five commissioners could be
of one political party.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, the Federal Communications Commission is another example. And then
that Donald Trump is just designated Brendan Carr to be
the chairman, one of the few conservatives on a commission.
So that's good. What I mentioned the other day is
I had not heard Donald Trump mention this issue of
our electrical grid, and because, let's face it, it's not
on the radar of most Americans. This is not if
you asked him what are the top ten concerns and
(05:30):
issues you had, this probably wouldn't make the cut. But
it is important, and I'm glad to hear you say
that he's got He's been briefed by folks in the
Secure of the Grid Coalition another so he's aware of it.
I'm a little bit more hopeful, doc than I was before.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, the four of our coalition members met with Trump
when he was candidate Trump in twenty sixteen, including the
late doctor Peter Pry who's very sorely missed pride told
me afterwards, he said, Trump, Look, they put his head
on my shoulder and said, don't you worry. When I'm president,
I'm on knock some heads together. We're going to get
(06:09):
this thing fixed. And sure enough he worked board it. Yes,
I'm We're very hopeful. We have our boots in the
ground now within the transition team, and uh, we're moving
forward as quickly as we can.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Well, Rosie mentioned something the other day that I think
is important too, Doug. Before we go here, how much
of this is subject I suppose that the president wants
to do something, how much of his actions would be
what would be subject to push back by private power
companies or even public power companies for example OPPD or MPPD.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
All of it will be pushed back. In our experience,
they pushed back as reflexed. They don't want to do anything.
They don't like to be told monopoly. And there's a
you know, we could have another conversation Gary about why
utilities are hurting themselves down the road because because of this,
they're going to really want you know, this kind of
(07:11):
circles back to what you were mentioning, Gary, the the uh,
we take our electric power for granted we flip the
switch and the power comes on. It's not just lights.
It's not even important that little Dougie Eels were sitting
here has power to his home. What's important is that
our fuel refineries have power. We cannot mount a military
(07:36):
defense with out jet fuel or the data centers.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
The data centers have to have power otherwise the whole
Internet goes down.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Is a real thing that's.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Really coming to a fine point because you know, foolishly,
utility companies throughout the country have been closing down prematurely
dispatchable power in favor of this intermittent power, and there
is a difference in electricity that way. Now it's generated,
(08:04):
and now they're forced to go to really what is
the only really clean fuel for generating, which is nuclear.
And Rosie, you have done such a great job and
you know relaying that information. You are a very quick school.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, hopefully the permitting process with new administration will allow
us to at least begin the process of building these plants.
Is a bit more encouraging, Doug, Thanks so much, Doug Ellsworth,
Secure the Grid Coalition
Pleasure to welcome Doug Ellsworth back to the program from
the Secure the Grid Coalition. Much to talk about, Doug.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Good morning, Goring, Gary, Thanks for having me on, you bet.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's great to have you back. I mentioned the other
day that we have had one administration after another that
doesn't seem to see the urgency in hardening our electrical
grid and protecting the grid against attacks from adversaries or
mother nature potentially. And I got an email after that comment, Doug,
(00:33):
you said that this might be different now the second
Trump administration, because he had signed an order his first
time around, it was pretty much ignored. But he's learned
things now, right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We're very positive that he has, Yes, sir. He first
established Executive Order number one three eight six five kiled
Coordinating National Resistance to Electromagnetic Pulses, and that was issued
in twenty nineteen, and it directed various federal agencies to
(01:09):
enhance national resistance against the MPs, and there really was
nothing done. It had date certain deadlines for deliverables from them.
They blew them off. With one exception. DHS released in
twenty twenty, way late from what its timeline was supposed
(01:32):
to be. What they called a Program Status report Gary.
This was seventeen and twenty four words. That's it, less
than four pages. And actually it even claimed that they
had a pilot program which was actually US Air Force
(01:52):
initiated program under general cost. So there really has been nothing.
They just you know, forgot about it. A second executive
order by President Trump was one three nine to two OHO,
which was securing the US bulk power system from hardware
(02:14):
or cyber implants in the supply chain. This came as
a result of a beyond design basic circuitry found in
a large power transformer and a second one was carted
(02:35):
off from Houston from the you know, from the port
in Houston and carted the Sanda National Lab where this
was found. Lathan Sadler, who at the time was it
was formerly it just left the National Security Council as
Director of Intelligence, inadvertently mentioned in a radio interview that
(02:59):
they found something in there that could turn that transformer off.
We continue to buy transformers, large power transformers and insert
them in our grid.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Manufactured manufactured in China, right, A lot of them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
They undercut the Yeah, most of the large power transformers
are we import from overseas. They would be cost prohibitive
to utilities, they say to buy domestic made ones.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
A lot of this comes down, Doug, as I've learned
talking to you over the years, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,
and this is like any commission. They'll have new sheriffs
in town now with a new administration, right with Donald Trump,
assuming that this is on his radar, and you you
believe that it is right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Gary, The incoming administration has made it known that it
wants to do away with the abuses of the revolving door,
which leads to regulatory capture. Regulatory capture is the term
we use, and it exists where a regulatory body does
(04:10):
the bidding of the industry it's opposed to be regulating.
So yes, and there's much that can be done there
to send them a clear message. All of the five
commission commission of five member commissions, the president can relieve
(04:33):
the chairman of those commissions, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
being one, can relieve the chairman, reducing him to the
status of regular commissioner on the other four and appoint
one of the other commissioners to be chairman. He can
do that unilaterally without a congressional approval. Because they've already
(04:53):
been they're already commissioners. All of those five man commissioners
have to be bipartisans that can have as many as
a maximum of three of the five commissioners could be
of one political party.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, the Federal Communications Commission is another example. And then
that Donald Trump is just designated Brendan Carr to be
the chairman, one of the few conservatives on a commission.
So that's good. What I mentioned the other day is
I had not heard Donald Trump mention this issue of
our electrical grid, and because, let's face it, it's not
on the radar of most Americans. This is not if
you asked him what are the top ten concerns and
(05:30):
issues you had, this probably wouldn't make the cut. But
it is important, and I'm glad to hear you say
that he's got He's been briefed by folks in the
Secure of the Grid Coalition another so he's aware of it.
I'm a little bit more hopeful, doc than I was before.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, the four of our coalition members met with Trump
when he was candidate Trump in twenty sixteen, including the
late doctor Peter Pry who's very sorely missed pride told
me afterwards, he said, Trump, Look, they put his head
on my shoulder and said, don't you worry. When I'm president,
I'm on knock some heads together. We're going to get
(06:09):
this thing fixed. And sure enough he worked board it. Yes,
I'm We're very hopeful. We have our boots in the
ground now within the transition team, and uh, we're moving
forward as quickly as we can.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Well, Rosie mentioned something the other day that I think
is important too, Doug. Before we go here, how much
of this is subject I suppose that the president wants
to do something, how much of his actions would be
what would be subject to push back by private power
companies or even public power companies for example OPPD or MPPD.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
All of it will be pushed back. In our experience,
they pushed back as reflexed. They don't want to do anything.
They don't like to be told monopoly. And there's a
you know, we could have another conversation Gary about why
utilities are hurting themselves down the road because because of this,
they're going to really want you know, this kind of
(07:11):
circles back to what you were mentioning, Gary, the the uh,
we take our electric power for granted we flip the
switch and the power comes on. It's not just lights.
It's not even important that little Dougie Eels were sitting
here has power to his home. What's important is that
our fuel refineries have power. We cannot mount a military
(07:36):
defense with out jet fuel or the data centers.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
The data centers have to have power otherwise the whole
Internet goes down.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Is a real thing that's.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Really coming to a fine point because you know, foolishly,
utility companies throughout the country have been closing down prematurely
dispatchable power in favor of this intermittent power, and there
is a difference in electricity that way. Now it's generated,
(08:04):
and now they're forced to go to really what is
the only really clean fuel for generating, which is nuclear.
And Rosie, you have done such a great job and
you know relaying that information. You are a very quick school.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, hopefully the permitting process with new administration will allow
us to at least begin the process of building these plants.
Is a bit more encouraging, Doug, Thanks so much, Doug Ellsworth,
Secure the Grid Coalition
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