IFH 835: What Really Happens After You Write the Script with Michael K. Snyder

Michael K. Snyder shares a behind-the-scenes look at what it really takes to build a sustainable screenwriting career. From film school and early networking with Lloyd Kaufman to moving to Los Angeles with a plan, Michael’s journey highlights the importance of preparation, persistence, and relationship-building. Rather than chasing quick wins, he focused on writing constantly, producing short films, and using scripts as calling cards to open doors and start meaningful conversations.

The episode also explores the realities of development—outlines, treatments, rewrites, and long stretches of uncertainty. Michael explains how writers are evaluated not just on originality, but on their ability to collaborate, adapt existing material, and understand character-driven storytelling. His experience proves that success in Hollywood isn’t about overnight breakthroughs, but about loving the process and staying in the game long enough for opportunity to find you.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/indie-film-hustle-a-filmmaking-podcast--2664729/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
thirty five, Cinema Should Make You Forget You're sitting in
a theater, Roman Polanski.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur
How to turn your independent film into a profitable business.
It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to
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(01:03):
and there needs to be a change. The future of
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want to order it, just head over to www dot

(01:44):
filmbizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's
episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
My next guest is a graduate of full Sell University's
Film and Entertainment business programs. He's a founder of Crash Films, Inc.
He's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy
has done so many crazy, awesome things, and we're gonna
get into all that, and we're gonna talk a lot
about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little
bit about networking too, because he didn't just go out

(02:14):
to la without a plan, without knowing anybody. He actually
had a plan in place, and he's doing such some
really awesome things, And why don't we just go right
into it with guests Michael ky Snyder. Mike you were.
You were the guest on the first ever episode. The
episode is now considered a part of the Lost Episodes.

(02:35):
The first three are considered the Lost Episodes. You were
number one. You were my first guest, and it's so
good three years later to have you actually back on
so Mike again, I want to say thank you very
much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how
we've come full circle now, all the way back from
three years ago.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
Man, I'm so happy to be back on the show.
You know, it is it is. It's kind of funny
that we that we have come full circle.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
You're totally right, and just thinking about some of the
progressions that we've both made in our careers and how
things have changed.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
It's just really interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
And it's funny too because when I when we lasted
the interview again, it was it was remotely like we're
doing right now, but I was in a actual studio
doing it and I had nothing but problems there, and
now I'm doing it from my office and I and
you know, it's just ten thousand times better because I
remember when we had the episode and I listened to
it and I was like, what the hell happen here?
And it was that freaking recorder was not would never

(03:30):
work right. So I for the first two episodes did
I use that recorder and this really awesome radio station
was sound proof. And then all of a sudden, now
it's like, you know, I, I mean, just even technology,
how it's improved in three freaking years is unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
Crazy, Yeah, it is unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
So, you know, Mike, since that episode is a little lost,
actually it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost.
You know, I want to dig a little into your
background for those of you, for those listeners who aren't
really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done.
So you know, you were attually a graduate of Full
Sale University. You graduated in what twenty ten?

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Oh man, I graduated Full Tail's film program in two thousand, twenty.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
Eleven, and then I graduated their master's program a.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
Couple of years after that.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
So I moved out to LA in about two thousand
and fourteen, twenty fifteen.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Oh okay, so then, uh so, see again I just
found out I even know you graduated from the master's program,
So see I'm finding out. Yeah, so so you moved
out to LA Now we actually met through through trauma,
through Lloyd Kaufman, and you know what, while and that
was while you were actually at full sale. So when
you were at full sale, do you think you know

(04:48):
that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't
have had anywhere else. So it sort of like to
work on a lot of these different movies.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (04:56):
I don't really think that, you know, film school in
general matters as much as a lot of people want
to say it does.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
I think, you know, given what I know.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Now, if I could go back, I probably would have
tried to work a little bit harder and high school
and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just
because I feel like, you know, it's really all about
your network, and if you can get in out here
a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier
to meet executives or meat agents or meat managers or
producers because a lot of them are going to be
in the same class as you. Whereas if you're you know,

(05:28):
in Florida and you go into a school that anybody
you know, it's pretty much paying to go to because
it's private. It's it's just not the same pool of resources.
That's not to say that they didn't help me get
jobs out here and introduce you to a lot of people,
but I would say that a lot of what I
would consider to be my own success is just based

(05:51):
on me reaching out to people myself.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
You know, there's an old saying your net worth is sorry,
your network is your.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Net worth, and that's one hundred per century.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
It really is, my honest to God, even even if
you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding obviously and
you go out and you're like, well, hey, I need
people to to to invest in this project, or if
you're doing something like even this podcast or even doing
something like like releasing a film, if you don't have
a network built up, you really don't have any way
to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to

(06:23):
build it as you're doing it, which is, uh, it
was just like shooting yourself in the foot.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
That's absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
So so when when when you say you should have
you wish you had applied yourself in high school? Uh
to go out to like USC and stuff like that.
I mean, no, Mike, I trust me, man, I feel you.
I did the same thing in high school, man, I honestly,
and when senior year came around, I didn't give a
shit about anything, that's right, I I literally man Like,
my teachers were like, Dave, if you know, you don't

(06:51):
apply yourself anymore, and I'm like, I don't care. I
just want to get the help out of here.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Exactly. That's why I was.

Speaker 5 (06:58):
I would I was, I would like that before or
I was like that might be eighth grade. So you know, yeah,
I went to two different high schools and I you know,
the funny part is when I was a junior in
high school, I.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Cook in English.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
I was in an English honors class because I finally
had a teacher who kind of convinced me to apply
myself with writing. And she actually did an informational interview
assignment where you had to reach out to a professional
in your fields or where you wanted to go into
the career you wanted to go in. So I was like, well, shit, man,
I want to be a you know, writer director.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
I mean, Spielberg's not going to return my calls, you know.
I can't really reach.

Speaker 5 (07:34):
Out with Scorsese, So who can I reach out to?
And that's actually how I met Boyd with trauma and
started working like the conventions in Florida with him, which
is just really funny. And I think that was a
moment where my mind kind of opened up a little
bit where it was like, Okay, maybe she just focus
on this and focus on filmmaking and writing in your network.

(07:56):
So when I went to high school, I mean obviously
in Florida, when you got to a high there's not
like a there's not even like a film history class,
but like a film theory, like collective.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
It's all just the brass tacks high school stuff.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
And I would there was no way for me to
apply myself in the career that I really wanted to
except for in this one creative writing class, you know.
And I think there's something to say about the arts
programs in schools with that, because I wouldn't be in
the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know,
taking that course and made that decision. And I wish

(08:28):
there was more of those types of opportunities for people
young students.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there
than just sort of like you know, you know options A,
B and C. That's right, so and you know that's
something too that you know, even when I was in
high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all
these freaking movies. We would go to like all the
local video stores. You know, most people who listen to

(08:54):
this podcasts know what those were, like the Blockbusters Hollywood videos,
Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then but
but you know, we would always write these movies. We'd
go out and every Friday, Saturday night or whatever, we'd
go out, we'd we'd just be watching all sorts of
different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it
didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that
I could make a you know, I could do this

(09:15):
for a living. I just figured that everyone who wrote
and made movies was like, you know, granted these special
privileges by like the President of the United States or
some crap.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
You know what I mean, right right exactly. It's like
it's it's the unattainable goal.

Speaker 5 (09:27):
You know it's out there, but you have no what
you have no idea how to you know, map your
road success in that field. There's there weren't a lot
of resources, you know, and it's crazy. It was literally
like you go when you watch movies and you think,
you know. I remember when I was ten years old,
I was watching Close Encounters and I'm like, this is great,
you know, and it was the first time my parents

(09:49):
ever were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the the show.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
And it was like a light bulb off of my brand,
like somebody writes movies. You know. It's it's just the
craziest thing.

Speaker 5 (10:07):
But now I think there's a lot a few more
resources just years later, and not that many years, but
there really weren't.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
When I was in high school, Yeah, it was sort
of like, you know, you have to go to college,
you have to do this stuff. And when I went
to it, you know, and when I went to college,
I didn't know. I didn't know anything exactly what I
wanted to major in, and you know, I bounced around
from major to major. But I was always, you know,
in my spare time, I was practicing writing, and I
actually the first book I ever got on screenwriting was

(10:36):
a book called The Screenwriter's Bible by David Trodier. Yes,
and I bought that and that just sort of like
opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know,
getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know,
how to actually how they wrote that stuff and how
how I do it. I'll still do it, but but
then you start to realize, oh my god, there are
people out there who actually make movies. And I actually

(10:57):
and that. I guess maybe it was like two thousand
and six seven I actually really got into it and
I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I
found them on on on my Space.

Speaker 5 (11:06):
Remember my Space, Mike, Yeah, man, yeah, unfortunately I do.
I think mine's like, like I think I went went
to great lengths to delete mine.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
I Mine was actually deleted for me.

Speaker 5 (11:23):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
And I got to notice one day they were like,
we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours
is one of them. And I said, honestly, burn that
guy to that, burned that thing to the ground.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
It's so true. It's a it's I have a friend
of mine who still has or he had one, and
I was like, my god, man, I go to that
that that's like a something from your childhood. That's like
an embarrassing moment. You're just like, please never bring that
up again. But uh, but you know, I actually I
actually met him from filmmakers through my Space and uh

(12:00):
and and some of these guys were actually in like
Jersey and New York and uh, you know, I never
really put two and two together that there there's there's
a lot more there wasn't. There was a lot more
in the in the whole bigger area. I don't want
to say PA because it really wasn't that many in
PA at that time. But but like New York and Jersey,
there was a few people. Most didn't respond back because

(12:23):
most were looking for like producers that could fund and
give them money.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
Some actually money, right exactly, And most actually did, though,
you know, come back and say Okay, here's what you
can do. And then I just you know, went from there.
But but you know, what I'm trying to say with
all this is it's similar to what you did with Lloyd,
and you reached out to him and said, you know,
I can, you know, I should see how I could
actually work with this guy. And you you made an
opportunity for yourself.

Speaker 5 (12:47):
Yeah, I mean I took a class assignment and I
reached out on my shop and the email I was like, hey,
I want to do an interview with you over the phone,
you know, and just talk about your career and and
how you've made something out of nothing and continue to
do so. And he responded back with a cell phone number,
and that was that was it. And then it was
just really up to me to keep him pinned down

(13:09):
and and and stay on top of him as much
as possible, you know, whenever he was in town or
I went to New York and that he saw him,
you know, and different things.

Speaker 4 (13:17):
It was. It was just to keep to keep the
relationship a lot.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah. And you know, now with technology we're able to actually,
you know, keep in contact with people a lot better
and so and and also it's a double edged sword
because then you're you're getting too much contact with with
every regard get get you once, right.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
But you know, but you made an opportunity. You reach out,
even if it was for a class or and you
made sure to make a contact and I think that's
so important and and I think and also you did
it the professional way. I mean, I just had Whitney
Davis in the podcast for the second time and we
talked about networking the right way. And you know, the
first time that you you contact somebody, you shouldn't be

(13:55):
asking for something, right, No, totally and uh and and
you know you you actually were offering something for Lloyd
and he took you up on that. And then again
now you know, and here we are all these years
later because and because when you when you were on
that Trouma film, we met through that, because that's when
I met Lloyd. Uh, and then we started talking and

(14:16):
then I think, uh, yeah, yeah, that's how we met.
And then then uh, there's you know, I've met a
few other people through Lloyd Andoyd. You know, Lloyd's always
doing something on independent films.

Speaker 5 (14:25):
He's the connector, man, I mean, he's the great connector,
you know. I mean he just if he's able to
put you on the phone or in the room with
somebody that you want to be on the phone or
in the room with, he'll he'll do whatever he can
to be the one to do it.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
Who does it, you know, And and then he'll take
all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
And I remember reading his his independent film book and
it was just absolutely hilarious. And I was like, see,
he's he's he's making independent film, you know, fun it's
not taken too seriously. And you know his and when
he was in the pot podcast, he uh he said
he founded Trauma in Prison with Michael Hurts. Uh and

(15:05):
he was Michael Hurts's bitch and uh and they founded
Trauma in Prison and uh, I'm like wow. And afterwards,
the after the interview, I said to like, Lloyd, do
you ever think that someone's gonna listen to this for
the first time, not hearing of humor trauma and think, wow,
that guy really started moving prisoness in prison?

Speaker 4 (15:24):
He probably, like I hope, so, you know, not far
from the.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Truth, you know, yeah, yeah, seriously. Uh, you know, I
I've you know, and and Lloyd is right, he's a
very good connector. He's always connected you know, different people
and uh, you know again because he connected us and
and I I've been on different film sets multiple times.
And you so you know, after you got off this,
you know, just to continue your story after you got
off you know, the working on trauma, and you know,

(15:51):
you sort of you went back to Full Sale. You know,
at what point did you want to did you realize
that you wanted to go back for your for a
master's at full.

Speaker 5 (16:01):
At the beginning, just because it was kind of part
of the deal with my parents, and just the way
that they structured their programs. It was like if you
it was like they had a deal, like it was
like a bogo, like if you buy one degree, you know,
we can give you this second degree at at a
certain cost that was thousands of dollars less than it

(16:24):
would have been had you decided to do it later.
Because every so many years they restructure their programs and
they changed the cost. So it just happened to be
that when we sat down with a representative of Full Sale,
they were just they were like, now, if you want
to take the master's program in business, you know we can.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
We can.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
We can go ahead and lump it in with the
film program and it'll end up costing you less money
later on.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
And you know, it was like it was like no time.

Speaker 5 (16:49):
You know, it was so quick because it's such an
accelerated program that my parents were like, you might as well,
and I mean at that point it was kind of
whatever they wanted to do.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
I was really doing it more for them.

Speaker 5 (17:00):
I think I kind of knew that I needed to
move somewhere and just start working, but you know, to
keep everything cool at home and to put a di
plumb on the wall.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
I was like, yeah, we'll go ahead and do that.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
And you know, again, it's good that you had a
plan because honestly, like you can become like me and
you know, obviously have no plan and just kind of
figure your way out. But but no, it's good the unit.

Speaker 5 (17:23):
But man, there's not really a plan out there, you know.
It's like you just have to figure it out. There's
not really a right or wrong way to do this.
I think you just have to you have to do it.
You have to just set goals and hit those goals.
And those goals can be anything, as long as you
know that at the end of that list there's some
sort of success and whatever that successes and not be
monetary success. It could just be moving to Los Angeles

(17:45):
or moving to New York, or getting a show, a
gig on a show.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
Or anything. You know, there's not really there's not really
a way to teach this.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA And that's
actually what I want to ask next, is you know, yeah,
so you got them and then you moved out to LA.
I think you said at twenty fourteen is when.

Speaker 4 (18:03):
You moved down it was yeah. I mean, I'm horrible
at dates, so I'm probably butchering it. Well, let's just
say that.

Speaker 5 (18:09):
And basically what happened is after I was done with
the film program and I went to the Masters, all
of my film school friends had already moved out to
Los Angeles. So by the time I was done, you know,
I had couches to sleep on, which is really key
when you're moving from you know, podunk, Florida to one
of the most expensive cities in the nation. Is it's

(18:29):
nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while
you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And
so I hooked up with the career development program at
Full Sale and they got me the internship out here,
and I called on my friends and he was like, man,
you can come out here. You can sleep on my
couch for as long as you want or need to.
You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything

(18:50):
with your internship. Just just get out here, Like that's
all we wanted. We just want you out here. So
I flew out.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
And moved in with him and started by internship. I mean,
it was interesting.

Speaker 5 (18:59):
I was running a ten thousand square foot warehouse in
downtown Los Angeles for more Tyrannee and Anthony Revevar and
Sean Wing and a few other actors and Nathan Heeney,
who's a great director of photography now, and they basically
they pulled their resources. They rented this massive warehouse right

(19:21):
and it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they
needed some young kids to run it.

Speaker 4 (19:28):
So there was one other guy who was managing it,
and I interned there and after a couple.

Speaker 5 (19:32):
Of months they hired me on as his assistant, and
then after a couple of months, I got his job.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
So I ended up doing that for.

Speaker 5 (19:39):
A couple of years and opened a second location in
Burbank with Stacey Chaer, who everyone knows is Guarantino was
produced and partner or was and her husband Carrie Brown.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Who's a really good friend, and we did.

Speaker 5 (19:52):
A lot of really cool stuff, man, And it was
a lot of fun and I got to meet a
lot of really great people my first couple of years
out here, which is always nice.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned having couches to sleep on.
That was actually be one of one of my questions
because having that networks as everyone already moved out there,
you know, and having those couches to sleep on and
places to crash and you know, yeah, exactly, it is key.
And again are your network is your net worth? And
uh again you you're able to actually you know, uh

(20:32):
go out there and not just be like all right,
so what next. I mean I've had friends Mike who've
gone out to LA and sort of been like with
with no plan and been like, Okay, what next.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
It's like, well, you're gonna You're gonna suffer if you
do that.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, You're gonna really really reality is gonna hit you
very fast, totally. So you now you mentioned you got
the you know, the warehouse job. Now at this point,
were you always writing scripts and did you maybe have
a few scripts to show two different like maybe producers agencies.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, I mean I started writing screenplays when I was
probably eleven years old. Pennant Paper then I figured out
how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out,
you know, you could get celtics and all these freeware.
Then I found out that there were all these forums
and independent script hosting sites online.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
So I was always putting material out there.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
I mean, I was just pushing short films and short
stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I
could to get reads and get comments, because that's you know,
structure is key from that point of view. So by
the time I moved to Los Angeles, I had some
features kind of under my belt, and I had one
in particular that I was I think the most proud

(21:45):
I've been working on the hardest, and basically I started
reaching out to people. And while I was out here
for those first couple of years, I was also producing
short films because I had this awesome ten thousand square
foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and
films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and
then it would just be sitting there for the other

(22:06):
half of the year. So I would get my buddies
who had write cameras and lenses and all these different things,
and we would produce short films and we'd write them
and produce them. And I had two that premiere at
the can Film Festival, you know, two different years. So
I used that and I used like kind of my background,
and I sent an email to Carson who runs Script Shadow.

(22:28):
Some people love them, some people hate them, whatever, and
I attached a feature that I'd written that I was
pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on
his site for one of the you know, independent.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
Hostings that he does.

Speaker 5 (22:43):
And I would say I got one hundred emails from
people that were basically, this sucks. You know, you don't
know what you're talking about. You're a dumb millennial. I
mean literally that.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
And I got one email from somebody who ended up
being my manager.

Speaker 3 (22:59):
But you know, am I want to ask you about
the manager email on a second, but I want to
before I do, I want to ask you why why
do you think you got so much hate mail? Do
you think it was from a lot of.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
Ang we No.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
I have my own theory about why you got so
much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a
lot of people who have unrealized dreams and whenever they
kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like
a chance to sort of almost like if I could
throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment on
to somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm gonna

(23:30):
take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why
do you think you got so much of those angry emails? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (23:34):
I think it's the combination of that, and I think.

Speaker 5 (23:36):
That, you know, I may have come off as a
little little arrogant because I was like, look, you know,
I've produced these two short films.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
You know, I'm like twenty five, twenty four, twenty five.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
Years old, and I just could really benefit from hosting
the script YadA, YadA, YadA. And I think at the
combination of people miss reading my inventions and also just
what you're saying. It's like armchairs, you know, screenwright reviews,
screen screenplay reviewers. They're sitting there and they're rewriting movies
in their heads and on their sofa, but they're not
actually out there hitting the pavement. And because of that

(24:10):
inability to motivate themselves, they they're haters.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah, it's that, That's what I think. It is that
they they're very angry, they're very you.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Know, it's shame.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
A lot of the a lot of people in this business.
There's a lot of awesome people. And you and I
talk about this, you know, uh, because we talk a lot,
and we talk about how sometimes this business stereotyped is
everyone is bitter, angry, out to get you. But there's
a ton of awesome people in this business and there
are many and it's just and but but it's unfortunate,
like situations like that where it's like you really see

(24:45):
the sort of dark side where it's like, what the
hell is this. There was actually a screenwriting group that
used to be a part of on Facebook. It was
a Facebook group and I think it was it was
set a private or whatever, and I remember people would
post in there and they would post stuff that was
completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try
to correct it, you know, and just not not like

(25:06):
say okay, you're wrong, but just say hey, there's another
way to do this. They would jump all over people,
and finally I said, why the hell am I part
of this freaking group anymore?

Speaker 5 (25:14):
And it's it can't all be negative, yeah, you know,
it has to be.

Speaker 4 (25:18):
It has to be.

Speaker 5 (25:20):
There has to be optimism because it's such a hard
industry to break into that if all people are bringing
is negativity. You're just going to stop someone from potentially
a cheating in your dream.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
It's almost too like when when uh, you know, when
you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have
people around you who are constantly just being like problems
spotters and not problem solvers, you know, there's those are
the type of people that you got to, like, jettisid
from the project as soon as possible.

Speaker 5 (25:47):
Oh, totally, man, it's it's it's you can boil it
down to you know, don't bring me the problem, bring
me the solution. Really.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail right on the head
mic and you know, so so as you sort of
go back to tell my script shadow, you got one
email that was from a manager who said, you know,
I want to talk to you.

Speaker 5 (26:07):
So yeah, it was like, I think you showed a
lot of talent on the page, a little bit about me.
He gave me his background and he was like, let's
you know, let's grab some coffee. And we went and
we got coffee, and I thought he was great though.
He was really knowledgeable and nice guy, and you know,
I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I
could and at.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
The end of the meeting, he was kind of like,
all right, what do you want to do?

Speaker 5 (26:31):
And at this point I had an idea of what
I wanted my next project to be, and I had
I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably
not going to get made, but if I could partner
with the right person, I could get in front of
the people who would potentially make it, and that would
open all the other doors for me. And it was

(26:51):
a script I wrote called The Mouse Who Would Be King,
and it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt
Disney developed and created Mickey Mouse. That it ends with
creation of Mickey Mouse. And I wrote it in a
very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking
and all these different things. And so I told him that,
and I was like, it's never gonna get made, but
let's put it out there, let's take meetings, and let's

(27:12):
get into development, because you know, we have time. We
can do this now. And he kind of like what
that mean? He was like, all right, let's do it,
and we shook hands and we went from there.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
So and then where did you go from there? Did
you go to start actually going too like all these
different like pitch meetings and stuff.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Yeah, I mean we beat out the story.

Speaker 5 (27:28):
You know, I had the story because I grew up
in Florida, right and we went to Disney World all
the time. And at Disney World they have an exhibit
called One Man's Stream where you can go in and
it's like a Disney museum. And then there's this movie
at the end where it basically explains how Walt had
created Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and it was stolen from him,
or you know, he didn't really understand the full the

(27:50):
paradigms of his contract and Universal owned it and he
put all this working through it, and he's like, I
should own this because I put all this work in
through it. And on the train ride back home to
tell his team and his wife, he started coming up
with Mickey Mouse. So I knew that that's what I
wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my
end theme. I had the idea of Walt Disney going

(28:14):
on a train and having like this just epiphany of
Mickey Mouse, and the way that I wanted to dramatize
it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the
train car with him. So we beat out the story
and we you know, I read a bunch of books
and kind of just filled my manager's head with all
this knowledge of Disney that he didn't otherwise know. And

(28:34):
then we wrote it and I wrote drafts and drafts
and drafts and drafts.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
While still working at the studio, and.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
He was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down,
and he started sending I sent it to agencies, sends,
production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people, and then
the real game began and I started taking meetings.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
So how long was it before you know, you talked
to them, you would beat it out and before you
got meetings? How long was that whole time seriod there?

Speaker 6 (29:04):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (29:05):
Man, I mean I really knew the story, so I
think it was kind of an easier development process. And
it was just he and I, so there were weren't
a lot of.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
Coats in the kitchen.

Speaker 5 (29:14):
I mean probably a six months, seven months, and then
I started taking meetings.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what
were some of the what was some of the feedback
that you were getting.

Speaker 5 (29:28):
Everyone loved the script, it was it was it was
something where they were like, you know, I love the
script and we want to know what else you're working on,
and if we can find something to work on together.
And I started developing, Like I developed a TV show
with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a
TV show with Image Movers, which was Roberts and Max's company,
that didn't.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Go anywhere, and I took that, and I took.

Speaker 5 (29:49):
That somewhere else, and everything kind of led into other projects.
Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had ended
up giving me something else to work on, or they
had something that I could fit into, or.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (30:11):
I showed some sort of interest in a project that
they brought up in a meeting, and then you know
that's really key is you go in there and of
course I'm nervous, you know, and I'm moved out here
to do this, and I'm going to intermedt with.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
These big guys, right and.

Speaker 5 (30:28):
They can be very intimidating, And the key is really
to sell them on what your brand is and.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
What your personal story is.

Speaker 5 (30:36):
And if you can do that, they're going to try
and find something that they have that almost feels like
a perfect fit for you. And then you just have
to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere,
but they led to other conversations and other development things
and other specs that led to where I am today.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
So you use that Mickey mouse script and that sort
of became like a calling card script to get your throat, Yeah,
to get your foot in the door. And they were saying,
you know, did they say to you, hey, Mike, we
love you know, the mouse would be king what else
do you have?

Speaker 4 (31:15):
Yeah, I mean there was a little bit of that.
I was like, what else are you thinking about? Like
what else are you writing?

Speaker 5 (31:20):
And then based on that, it was like if I
was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, oh,
well we have this sci fi thing we or we're
looking at this book, what do you think about this book?
Or for instance, when I went to Image Movers, it
was more so about the fact that I used to
box and I was an amateur boxer. And they had

(31:42):
a producer who had optioned all of FX tools, Short
Stories and FX toolvote million Dollar Baby, right, So they
had optioned all of them except for Million Dollar Baby
because obviously Warners had that, and they were like, would
you be interested in trying to build a TV show
based on these short stories, and of course you say yeah, yes,
and that A started developing that and when that fell through,

(32:04):
I took all of the FX tool references out of
what we had been working on, and I wrote a
spec pilot just without all those references that I filled
it with my own personal experiences from boxing, and then
that pilot became my TV calling card, and then we
sent that out to everybody.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
And so when you set that out to everybody, did
you sort of have like a whole another round of
meetings with like the same oh anasment companies or was
it different message?

Speaker 5 (32:31):
It's kind of like a like an album, Like you
read an album and then you go on a tour
and you do all these concerts.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
Like that's kind of how I look at it.

Speaker 5 (32:37):
You write a script, you give it to some of
your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody,
and then people finally get back to them and they
want to meet with you. And then you go on
a tour, you know, and then and you're basically going
to all these different generals and all these different meetings
and and hoping that something turns into something else.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
You know. I never feel like.

Speaker 5 (32:57):
The specific project that I'm going in with is going
to sell. You know, I'm not there to sell that project.
I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as
a writer and and to get on something either they
already have or to just open that line of communication
where I can pitch them something later on.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
And so when when when you know, you're building relationships, relationships,
So now you're and so now they know when you
come to the door, like, oh, you know there's Michael K. Snider,
he's he's guy was so you know, brought the whole
Disney project. He's done this, and you know so and
you you know, so they're sort of you're building a
good reputation for yourself.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
Yeah, because this whole town relationships and it's really all
it is.

Speaker 6 (33:38):
You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years
ago and was a you know, creative exac somewhere is
now you know, VP production at a studio, right And
I can go to them and be like, you know,
just just by just because I've kept in contact with
all these people throughout the years.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
And then they move up and they change and their
mandates change, and you never know when you're gonna have
something that fits their mandate.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, because you know, you know, taste change, you know,
and now everybody I swear, like the number one question
and the number one thing I hear from doing this
podcast is you know, always have a TV pilot ready
because now they all they want something. Everybody wants something episodic.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Now, yeah, that's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
Who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch,
and the specific networks who they have to deal with
or whoever they've worked with, has you know, their mandate is,
you know, we want to hear the pitch and then
develop the pilot because there's money. And then some producers
are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out,
you know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want
a buible, We just want to get the spec and

(34:42):
then take that out. So it's really, you know, it's
everyone's different, every networks different, every company is different.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, And you know, now with everybody else getting into
the game, like you know, like Amazon, I mean even
even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon,
there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into
the some content game. And I mean you just see
all these these different players now popping up, and all
the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know,
and and and in Hulu and all your big your

(35:10):
big studios. So it's just, you know, now it's like
you have a lot of options as a writer.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
That's great, Yeah you do. It's just you know, getting
into the conversation.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
So as you talked about getting into the conversation, uh,
you know, you had just recently pitched a treatment for
a sequel for a very well known movie. And I
know you can't talk too much about it, but uh
uh you know, can you just tell you know, all
the listeners about, you know what, what the streaming was
that you pitched.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
So basically what happened is I'll go back and kind
of preface it with another story. I was sent an
article from you know, by my girlfriend about this SeaWorld
orchitt trainer named John Hargrove who worked at sea World
for fourteen years and became like this lead kill a

(36:00):
whale trainer and quit and he wrote a memoir. So
I mean, of course, again, growing up in Orlando, I
have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting
on Shamboux, right, you know, so I'm like, I don't
want to see Blackfish.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
I don't want to know anything about it. I know
it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know.

Speaker 5 (36:18):
So she said me this article, and I read it,
and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole that
I just I totally just jumped in. And I bought
his book and I read it overnight, and I started like,
as I'm reading the book, I'm like highlighting scenes that
I see in my head and different things. And he's
the author is just so interesting, his personal story so interesting,

(36:39):
beyond the fact that he worked at Sea World. And
the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in
Long Beach and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author,
who doesn't even live out here, and she went up
to him, was like, you gotta cost my boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (36:56):
He's got a great idea. He knows how to turn
your books through a movie. He can do it. We
can do it together, you know, give him a call.

Speaker 5 (37:03):
So before he could call me, I'd already like hyped
up a pitch you know why I should write this
movie and what my version of his story is, which
was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him
and grow that emotional connection that he had with the
killer Will. And so I sent him the email called

(37:25):
me the next day and we talked for like four
hours and just became really good friends and and he
was pretty much like, all right, where do I sign?
So from there, we wrote a thirty page treatment and
he took that and we pitched it all over town
to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie
is great. You know, this idea is great, but we
need you to spect the script. So I spect that

(37:46):
feature out and then we sent that back and it
just it just at that point, you know, it is
a matter of a few months just to go back
to what we were just talking about.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Those companies had already changed.

Speaker 5 (37:58):
Their mandate and it was like, well, now we're looking
for thrillers or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon,
and we don't think this fits that mandate.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
Blah blah blah. So that's fine.

Speaker 5 (38:08):
So we sent that around and I had met with
an executive at Ellen Pompio's company, Calamity. Jane Allen Pompio
is Meredith Gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked
about a couple of projects and she is a big
anti SeaWorld person. So, you know, they only have a

(38:29):
TV deal with ABC, they don't do any films. So
I reached out to my manager, you know, on my
girlfriend is like, you need to you to send it
over to them, and I'm like, well, they only have
a TV deal and she's like, just do it. Just
do it, because the moral of my life and right
now is my girlfriend Rachel's always right to be cob,
be honest with you. And every time she told me
that I need to do somethings she's and I disagree
with her, I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from

(38:52):
So I've learned that the hard way. But she's always right.
And so we sent it over to them and they
called and they were like, we love this. You know,
we don't know how to do this, but we love this,
and we want to reach out to someone else to
try and see if we can partner with them because
we don't make movies. And it just so happened that
the person that they wanted to reach out to was

(39:12):
Lauren schuer Donner, who of course is the amazing producer
of all the X Men films and Deadpool and she
produced Free Willy, and.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
She's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is
the director of Superman.

Speaker 5 (39:26):
The Yeomen Bethhilppon, Goonies all that, and they're big anti captivity,
anti fur, anti zoo, all that. So we went down
the line with them and they were interested, and at
the end of the day it just wasn't something that
they felt they wanted to go down again because they
again they produced Free Willy and they got kind of

(39:47):
attacked for that at a time.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
And they were like, we don't really want to do
that again.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
So my manager went in and he met with the
head of their company and he was like, well, what
else Mike want to do.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (40:09):
And my manager started talking to him about a couple
of projects that I add that everyone considers to be
ambulan in tone, as in seven Spielburt's Pression Company, of course,
and he was like, well, we've wanted to do a
Doonies too for a long time, and we've heard a
lot of pitches and we've gotten a lot of treatments.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
So I'm basically every writer in.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
Hollywood and nobody can get you know, Dick and Stephen
and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel.

Speaker 4 (40:40):
What do you want to do that? And my manager's like, yeah,
of course he wants to do that. I mean he's
kidding me, right. So I get a call and my
manager and he's like, what do you think about the Goonies?
And I'm like, are you serious? Like, of course I
want to do there.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
I mean, of course I want to throw, you know,
throw my cards in it and really try to throw
in my hand.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
But it was quite a challenge.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
So down and I watched the original movie a dozen
times again and came up with a with an idea
for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel I
wouldn't I wouldn't really say, but sort of like how
do I force awakens the Goonies?

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (41:19):
And uh, I think again, because I don't know how how.
I don't want to go to in depth with it,
but there's there is one thing I want to say
that that that it was I think was awesome that
you did and when this was since since will when
I Willie's Treasure was found, the town itself was basically
had become Hey, nobody, it's not special anymore because there's

(41:41):
no more there's no more treasure to.

Speaker 5 (41:42):
Find, right, Totally, it's it's how do you tell this story,
you know, thirty something years after the first movie took place,
and it also, you know, I.

Speaker 4 (41:54):
Love the Gooenies and everyone loved the Goonies, but.

Speaker 5 (41:56):
It's it's a it's a product of it of the
year it came out, right, and you really, it would
be really hard to make that kind of movie today
because there's just constraints with the way that budgets work
and just having an all kid casts and all these
different things.

Speaker 4 (42:12):
So it was really, how do I in a way
bring the.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
Magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and
into today's kids, in the world of today's kids, And
then how do I bring select members of the cast
back and have them involved.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
So I don't know, I don't know if the movie
will ever get made.

Speaker 5 (42:32):
I don't know if they'll ever be a new Goonies movie,
because it's hard for everyone to agree on something. But
you know, dec have it and he's reading in I'm
just waiting to hear back from him.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Now, So do you ever think Mike that you would
ever maybe use this treatment as a sort of like
a pitch for other projects. So maybe, like, you know,
if you ever they said, hey, Mike, what else have
you been working on, You'll say, Hey, I've worked on
this Gooney's treatment for for you know, and I pitched
it to Richard Donner, And you know, would you ever,
at any point ever do something like that?

Speaker 5 (43:04):
Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up
in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the unie.
So when you bring that up and if you know,
they want to kind of know what the basis of
the pitches, and you know, without giving too much away,
you give that to them and then they can kind
of see how your mind works when adapting other material,

(43:28):
you know, source material, which is key right now because
that's what everyone's doing.

Speaker 4 (43:32):
And it's actually funny because.

Speaker 5 (43:34):
Of the project that I'm most excited about and currently
developing that I can't really say the name of what
it is and who the players are, but it's two
veteran producers who made, you know, a lot of movies,
and it's an adaptation of a classic story by a

(43:55):
well respected author.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
And I partially believe that.

Speaker 5 (44:00):
You know, it was sort of a combination of Beneath
the Surface, which is a cer World movie, that script
getting me in the door with them, and then me saying,
you know, oh, by the way, right now, I'm also
writing a treatment and pitching a Gooney sequel, and.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
Here's kind of how I'm doing it and how I'm
adapting it.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
So so so as you know, you're going to these
pitch meetings and as you are sort of working on things,
you know, one of the things that you and I
always talk about is development and you know, sort of
ye and sort of managing expectations. So what are some
of the things that you know, you can sort of
discuss about, you know, development, Like let's just say, for instance,
let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say that

(44:38):
somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original spec script.
They were to buy it. You know what, what are
some of the things that happened at development.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
It's interesting.

Speaker 5 (44:49):
I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of
always felt or or or still feel that once you
get to the point in your career where you're actual,
really meeting with the real producers, you know, not just
the assistance or anything like that, but the actual people who.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Can sign a check that everything just changes.

Speaker 5 (45:10):
But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right,
so you climb up to the top of Everest, only
to realize that there's another like, you know, six hundred
miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall,
and that that's how it feels.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
So I think, you know, when someone comes along and
they buy a spec, they're going to do one of
two things.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
If it's a big spec, like if we're talking you know,
Blockbuster Temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to
do a polish.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
And that's partially too.

Speaker 5 (45:41):
If it's a if it's a big studio and they're
they've got shareholders that they have to convince, it's that
it's like, well, we'll have the Coen Brothers come in
and they'll do a polish on all the dialogue and
everyone will be happy to give us money to make
the movie. If it's a smaller contained kind of genre
film like a ten qulover Field or something like that,

(46:01):
then it's a whole different conversation. Then then you could
be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director
who wants to come in and.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
Do a polish as well.

Speaker 5 (46:09):
The other end of the coin is when in the
situation I'm in now is i'd have something pitched to me,
you know, So I go in and I'd pitch five movies,
and they want to make one of the movies I pitch,
and then they also but you know, but first we
want to do one of the ones that we're looking
at with you.

Speaker 4 (46:25):
So they pitch me the movie. Then it's you know,
I got to look at the source material, which is
a book. I got to figure out how am.

Speaker 5 (46:31):
I going to add my voice or you know, what's
my style with this source material? And then it just
begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands,
and I'm just still learning it as I go, because one,
every executive and producer is different, and two, it's just
not something that anybody ever talks about in film school

(46:53):
or anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's it's very
much like, Okay, read the book and then give us
an outline, right, that was the first thing. It's like,
give us an online of how you would adapt it.
So then I sit down and I write, you know,
like a ten to twelve page outline, and it's basically

(47:14):
in pros that's just how I write my outlines. And
I send it over to them and they're like, okay, great, well,
come into the office.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
I'm gonna talk about it. So go in the office.

Speaker 5 (47:22):
They tell me what they love, they tell me what
they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know,
kind of how to.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
Help structure it.

Speaker 5 (47:28):
Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true.
Then you know, they categorize writers in two different categories, right,
One is a writer who can write character and the
other is a writer who can write structure. And the
key I think is to really understand character, because they
can give you the structure if you can come up

(47:50):
with the characters, and you can come up with what
the real story is behind everything and why you need
to tell this story and why these characters are going
through what they're going through and not just you know,
bite page twelve, roughout the incieting incident and blah blah
blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
Save the cat. If you can come up with the characters,
they are paid to kind of look at it like
math and look at it like plotting.

Speaker 5 (48:15):
So they're gonna look at what you give them, and
they're gonna say, okay, so do you think this section
of your outline is like the first five pages? And
you say, yes, that's first five pages and then blah
blah blah, And it helps you. It helps them to
plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas
use the writers.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Should be thinking about the characters.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
And when I look at a lot of movies and
I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with
the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a
complete structure and you know, POV and not from character.
And I can see it when I watch the movies,
and I can also see complacency where it's like, you

(48:54):
could have made that better, but you didn't because of
one or two things. One you're getting a paycheck and
it doesn't matter because you know they're gonna market a
shit out of the movie and million, million million.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
People are gonna see. Two because you're nervous. You're in
the room with these guys.

Speaker 5 (49:08):
They have a bad idea, and you're afraid to tell
them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod,
go home and find out how to best tweak their
ideas that are worse than the story.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
And that, to me is what development is.

Speaker 5 (49:22):
It's this long process six months to a year, where
you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes
that at the end of this process they're either going
to hire you to write the script or they're gonna
make a deal with you where you spec the script
and then once the project gets funded, then you get paid.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Yeah. And you know, there was an article, I think
it was a Wall Street journal about how, you know,
why do so many of these these big budget movies
feel the same. And that was the answer, was they
think that there's too much, you know, save the cat
structure in there, because it's all structure.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, we'll be right back after a word from our
sponsor and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
You know, And that's great. I mean, you need structure,
but you should be the story guy. The writers should
be the story guy. The writer should be the person who.

Speaker 5 (50:19):
Makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters
in the film or the TV series. The executives, the
suit the money people. They should be the structure guys
and girls. They should be the people who are looking
at it from a plotting POV so that when they
call a director who comes in, they can beat out
the acts with the director and he totally understands what

(50:41):
they're saying. It's like math, let them do the math,
but you have to provide them with the numbers.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
So and you know, I was talking to something about
this too, was you know, if you look at movies
in from like the seventies and the eighties, you know,
there's there's all these you know, really unique movies, and
you sort of as you sort of get it to
the sort of end of the nineties to now, you
can see the big difference. And the big difference is
it's almost like with now they want to sort of
have creativity controlled where they know sort of what they're

(51:12):
going they want to have it. So it's almost like
the project is handheld from all these steps and they're
sort of like, Okay, you know now on page seventeen,
this has to happen. At page twenty five, this has
to happen.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
Stuff like that, right, right, Totally. It's interesting.

Speaker 5 (51:26):
I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever
in my life. I've never I've read all these books
and I've taken all these classes and I've and I
understand the logic, but I've.

Speaker 4 (51:36):
Never truly approached writing that way.

Speaker 5 (51:39):
I've always approached it as what is the story, Why
is the story relevant? And how do I fit these
characters and these things in just today's marketplace.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
That's the only math I ever do.

Speaker 5 (51:49):
I don't worry about what happens by page thirty, with
page twenty five or page sixty, not at leaf until
after I've written out an outline or a treatment or
even a first draft. Then I start to think, Okay,
how can I whittle this down? You know, how can
I get the action started earlier? But I I the
key is really to just do it, get it finished,
and then you can always go back and correct it.

Speaker 4 (52:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
It's like Tarantino and the Coen Brothers. They don't write,
you know, buy that either, you know. I know there's
a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robert Riguez, I
know those don't. Those guys don't write by the whole
like you know, hey, we have to have this happen
by this page and stuff like that. And I think,
you know, yeah, and I think what it happened is
I think, as you sort of try to crack this
nut so to speak. I think that's where you see

(52:32):
guys like Sidfield and Blake Center save the Cat, they
sort of wonder, you know, Okay, how did they write this?
There's somebody whoever script it is, how do they write
this script? And what are what do all good what
are all the good things that they have in common?
So these scripts that are you know, the top one percentile,
what are they actually doing? Thisus what they're not doing?
And I think that's then that's where all these systems
come from, Like you know, and that's where all those

(52:54):
books come from.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
Yeah, it's smart to understand, and it's hard to read
the books, and it's smart to kind of get what
you know, the end goal is and and understand the structure.
But I just I don't think anything should ever be
approached with structure in mind. First, I'm not saying you
should have a first act that goes, you know, eighty pages,
but I am saying that, you know, if you look

(53:16):
at some of your favorite movies, like you just said,
they're not really.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
Going off of any structure. They're going off of what's
the best way to tell the story.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
Yeah, And I think also that I think that's why
independent film now is sort of having you know, it's
sort of why you know, crowdfunding and everything else. I
think this act becomes more popular, that's gonna be where
you know, more people are going to say, you know,
I could just crowd fill my movie for maybe twenty
thirty forty thousand dollars and at least shoot it the
way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try

(53:47):
to actually, you know, sell to an agency or whatever.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
Right, yeah, And I mean you can, you can definitely
do that, and there's definitely ways to monetize that and
build the career off of that.

Speaker 5 (53:57):
I think my approach is, how can I get into
the system and not change the system, but just bring
that storytelling approach into the system with with some of
the bigger titles and and and and bigger films, and
and to not be complacent and and just say yes
to everything, but to find the best way to tell

(54:19):
the stories. Because if you find the best way to
tell a story and you can pitch it to an
executive or producer and they know that what you're saying
makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell
you no, they don't want to make a bad movie.
Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You
just have to be ten steps ahead and be willing
to tell them your idea.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Yeah, it's uh, that is you know, key is is
sort of how to communicate, right, So how do you
communicate something without actually you know, nobody wants to say no,
but you also can't say yeah, So you have to
communicate in a different way.

Speaker 4 (54:54):
And I remember, I mean it's risk management.

Speaker 5 (54:56):
You know. You have to give them a way that
they can tell their boss, or tell their finance years,
or tell the studio that they have to deal with.
You have to give it to them so that they
can they can express the idea or the story or
the structure or whatever you're presenting them with and the
best way to their bosses.

Speaker 4 (55:11):
Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Because you because that way you know obviously it's sort
of you know how nobody wants to be the person
that says no. Because I was reading a book about
this a few years ago and they said, you know,
if you you don't want to tell you know, the
next Vince Gilligan no, and then you know, if you
if you work for that uh that that studio and
then all of a sudden needs a hit and then
he comes back and says, now, aren't you that person
that said.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
No to me? Now? Aren't you that guy toly? Right?

Speaker 3 (55:40):
So, you know, and Mike, I just wanted to ask one. Uh,
I have a few more final questions. I know we're
starting around on out of time, as I see the count.
I didn't even I realized this, this conversation flew by.
I didn't even realize how long we were talking. And so,
you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are
some of the top writing competitions out there right now
for writers?

Speaker 6 (55:59):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Oh man, I mean, I think it all depends on
what your goal is.

Speaker 5 (56:04):
If your goal is to get some representation, then I think,
you know, Nichols is always great because it's such.

Speaker 4 (56:09):
A well respected contest.

Speaker 5 (56:13):
I think that the tracking boards contests are really great.
I know a lot of people get reps based off
of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know,
and put a little bit of money in your pocket,
then I think there's a lot of genre based writing
competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't
as good as some of the other ones, but you're
going to get some money out of it. So I

(56:33):
think it's really how you how you want to approach it.
Do you want to build a career and get representation
or do you want to get like forty g you know,
in the in the bank.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
And you know, because I know you went through the
you know, Script Shadows website and you were to you know,
I was just wondering, you know, because I know again
as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the
different opportunities out there, and you know, that's that's why
I asked that question, just to see because every time
I turn around, this's a new writing competition opening up.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
And yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know.

Speaker 5 (57:02):
I mean I don't I'm not really familiar with because
I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I
think Blacklist is great if you have the money to
spend on evaluations. So I think I think Blacklist is
still a very good asset. Like I said, I love
the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're
doing is is great. And they have a lot of
great managers and agents on their review boards that do

(57:24):
judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give
them other opportunities. And I know that from a genre
pov like, if you're doing a horror script or a
sci fi script, is the great genre contest?

Speaker 4 (57:35):
I don't that are offering.

Speaker 5 (57:37):
Cash prizes or or you know, the opportunity to pitch
a producer or you know, producers are partnering with these contests.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (57:45):
I just I'm not well versed in in their names
and what they are exactly, but I agree that they're
popping up every day.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, particularly the Bloodlist that came out of nowhere. And
when I heard about what that is, I was like, wow,
that's a fantastic idea.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Yeah, it's a good one for sure.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
And by the way, for those listing the blood List
is uh, actually I realized I said it, like there's
probably actually explain what we is. So the bud List
is the is the is the ranking of the top
horror unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this
was put together by I think, is it Kelly Marshack
is her name or Kelly marsh I think, so, yeah, yeah,
it's uh, it's she actually put this together and it's

(58:24):
it's sort of like the Blacklist, but for horror scripts,
and uh, you.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
Know, guse horror is so underappreciated man. And and I
was just having this conversation.

Speaker 5 (58:31):
That I did, like some of the best directors come
from horror, like even someone like Spielberg, Like if you
watch his action sequences, and like Jurassic Park or some
of the even like Close Encounters and et. They're all
tension and horrorait Like it's all about building the anticipation
for the scare or the reveal. And that's all classic

(58:51):
horror filmmaking. And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, uh,
especially when you look at so many great.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Directors who come from it.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Yeah, it's so true. I mean you'll get all the
people who started off for horror and uh and you
know it was like particularly like guys like Sam Raimi, Uh,
they started out totally.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
I mean, look at his career, like it's it's it's amazing.
He has the career that anyone could dream for. Yeah
he does. And uh you know, and he's a great guy.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah and and and he's he's been, you know, making
all these great projects and uh, now look like he's
got the Evil Dead TV series.

Speaker 5 (59:26):
And uh, exactly, and it's great, you know, and he's
doing great things with it.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
He's just just launched sky Dance Television.

Speaker 5 (59:32):
You've got a whole new TV you know, profession company,
and he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that
is today's current TV market.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
Yeah, and uh, you know that's when now you know,
you're were talking about episodic stuff, and that's something else too,
is a game because everyone I swear Mike, it's always
about you know, hey, feature films are great, but you know,
do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that
like a TV pilot that can you know, go on
for eighteen years like, uh, you know, but.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, we'll be right back after a word from our
sponsor and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, and you know that's that's always something on too,
in the back burner that I've always been making sure
I have at least a couple of you know, TV
pilots and uh exactly you know, anything you know, just
just making up, you know, just just in case they
actually say, you know, hey, you know, if what else
do you have? And you know, you're you're ready to
be prepared. And I also think like as we you know,
we talk about expectations and development and all and networking

(01:00:35):
and all the stuff that we've talked about. I think
being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this.
I don't think you're ever really one hundred percent prepared.
You can just do what you can do, and if
and and sooner or later, if you keep trying, you're
going to be in the right place at the right time.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
You gotta love the process, you know, you gotta love
the process.

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
You gotta be willing to get a day job if
you need some money. You gotta be willing to sleep
on a couch if you don't have any place. You
just got to love the process of hitting the pavement,
finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to
the ends of the earth to meet all these produces
and executives, and then hoping that you get into development.
And then you have to learn to love the process
of development, which is hard because there's not a lot

(01:01:17):
of money in it. And you know, if there is
any money at all, it's it's not a ton up front.
So you have to really love the process and love
how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate
for plot points with executives and defend your case you
have to learn to love that, and if you can
learn to fall in love with that, then the rest

(01:01:38):
of it is is is cake.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Very well, said Mike. Mike. H So we're just about
out of time, and I agree, Mike, you have to
love that process and you're just in closing way. I
just want to ask, you, know, work, if you'll find
you out online.

Speaker 4 (01:01:53):
I'm always you know, I'm on Facebook, Michael K. Snyder,
I'm on Twitter at mk Snyder nineteen ninety.

Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
I'm always looking for people to reach out and connect
and if i can help, I'm more than happy to.
I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help
put the piece to the puzzle together.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Yeah, and everyone. Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known
Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my
just to my mental role deecks Mike, I think I
might might have known you longer than anybody else. Oh no, no,
though there's two of the people I've had on a
podcast where I've known longer than you. So you're like,
you're like number, You're like the third or fourth person
in live people I've known longer. I love it, but
because I just remembered there's a friend I had on

(01:02:33):
here for middle school episode one Face with Chris Pireminico
and Chris Actually Chris actually was a producer on Game
Over and he also actually now teaches.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
Film and TV production and amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
That was That was a fun interview. And I'll give
you this a little snidbit. It was just funny because
he He's like, I'm I'm teaching now. He's like, so,
so He's like, don't curse, don't tell any weird stories before,
and I'm like, well, Jesus christ Man, That's all I
do is curse. And yeah, if you take that away
from me, I'm not Dave Bullets anymore. All I do
is Chris tell me at stories.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
That's awesome. That's your voice. Uh love it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Yeah, very very true. Mike, and Mike again, I want
to say thank you so much. You and I have
been friends for years. You know, you're somebody whose opinion
I really trust and I really, I really just know
that you were going to hit a huge, colossal grand
slam soon enough.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
Thanks man.

Speaker 5 (01:03:27):
I really appreciate that, and the feeling is mutual, my friend,
you know I think that, Yeah, your opinion is one
of the opinions I value more than many others. You know,
I send you work before other people see it because
you're that guy.

Speaker 4 (01:03:42):
Man, you have you have great taste.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And uh, everybody, everybody,
make sure you go check out Mike. Seriously. This guy
is always on the ball. He's always doing something really
really cool. So please go check out Mike and Mike.
Anything I'm gonna come back on, please let me know.
I'd love to have you on and I wish you
the best of luck man everything.

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
Thanks, Man, I will I'll take you up on that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
It sounds good, buddy. I take care, have a great Saturday.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
You too, my friend.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie film Muscle
dot com Forward slash eight thirty five, and if you
have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Subscribe and leave a good review.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
For the show.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
It really helps us out a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Thank you again so much for listening to guys. As always,
keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe
out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
Indie film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
E F I L M h U S T l
E dot com.