IFH 859: What James Gunn Taught Me About Success with Will Keenan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
fifty nine.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in a theater,
Roman Polanski.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.

Speaker 4 (00:38):
I am your humble.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into
a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for
independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory
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(01:23):
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The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook.
If you want to order it, just head over to

(01:43):
www dot filmbizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com.
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave bullis So.

Speaker 5 (01:54):
In today's episode, I have actor, stuntman and founder of
the Saint Babist Church. We're going to talk about everything
from his first starring role in Tromeo and Juliette where
he was Tromo which was actually written by James Gunn,
to moving to India to starre in Bollywood films, to
becoming an exec that some of the biggest content studios around.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
With guests will Keenan. Hey, Will, thanks off for coming
on the podcast.

Speaker 6 (02:22):
Dave Bullis, how are you?

Speaker 5 (02:25):
I am doing very well, Will, How are you doing
on this on this fine Sunday morning.

Speaker 7 (02:31):
It's beautiful down here in kate May County in New Jersey.
And Hey, just so you know that you know, this, uh,
this opportunity to sneak with you for your podcast, which
I've now checked out, kind of came out of nowhere
in a way, but I'm glad. I'm glad we're doing it,
and I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to
now promote you as the podcast man in the Philly area.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
Oh, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. Yeah,
you know, that's the way I try to do it.
I sort of come out of nowhere and I sort
of find find people on social media and I sort
of go.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
Hey, I'm I got this podcast. Do you want to
come on and talk?

Speaker 7 (03:03):
But yeah, you know, I I'm like, you know, I'm
a big deal in my own head, but I get,
you know, opportunities via social media. People ask me to
be on podcasts or speak at at conferences or whatever,
and I always then check their social media.

Speaker 8 (03:19):
You'd be surprised, Be surprised how many how many people
like reach out without having their own you know, especially
for something like a podcast that is social at least
the sharing of it, you know, online you try, how
many people reach out for a request but don't have
their own channels optimized, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 7 (03:40):
So all I do is in one click, I know
whether I'm gonna say yes or no. So you were
a big yes explanation point.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (03:49):
I you know, I try to try my best with
my social media, and I know your social media that's great,
And I agree with you because you know, I see
other people who have podcasts and such and and you
know even you know, actors, producers, directors, screawriters, and I
see there, you know, some of the social media and
it's just it's like nothing, it's just you know, it's
just sort of sitting there, and you know that's how
they're going to promote their stuff. But you know, yeah,

(04:11):
I'm glad that you could. You could come on, and
I want to talk to you obviously, you know about
your career. You've got some awesome credits, and I also
want to talk to you about you know, all the
great things that you're working on, so you know, just
to start, I guess, you know at the beginning, you know,
how did you, you know, find yourself in the film industry,
So you know what what was sort of your impetus
to start in this industry.

Speaker 7 (04:32):
Yeah, my first film was I was cast in right
before I graduated or went down the graduation aisle at
New York University. And oh boy, is this before you
were born? Dave nineteen ninety five. Summer of nineteen ninety five,
right before I think the week before NYU's graduation, I
had been cast as the lead in Trauma's film Tromeo

(04:52):
and Juliet. That was my first film, and it was
a starring role. And I was not familiar with Trauma
at the time. I Uh, throughout n y U, I
had been doing a lot of kind of performance art,
dance theater, I mean, you know that kind of thing.
And and prior to that, when a lot of my
generation got into the Trauma movies, I was out climbing

(05:15):
trees and doing stunts and stuff. So when I saw
the casting, like a week before n YU graduation, I
was with a friend of mine. He's like, oh, my god,
Trauma's casting. I'm like, who, Who's Trauma? And he was
like and uh. And then I went in for the
casting and read for producer Andrew Wiener, and then I
was called back for Andrew and James Gunn and they

(05:35):
were videotaping, uh, the you know, the auditions, and I
could tell like, after the first callback, I was I
was getting close at used to be considered. And then
word came back that Lloyd, the director and mister t
Trauma you know, had seen the tapes and wanted to
do a few more callbacks and put me, put me
through the grind, so to speak. But I think I

(05:56):
think named and Andrew Wiener. Someone tipped me off to
the fact that Lloyd's wife, Petty Pie Pat Kaufman. It
was then the she had been for like twenty years
the New York State Film Commissioner that she really liking
and she was voting for me. So at that point
that point I knew I was probably gonna get it.
And Lloyd told this story wise, I did it a
few years ago and some kind of interview where he

(06:16):
said I walked in with a pizza box for the
audition as a prop or something, and It's very likely
I would have done something like that, but I don't remember.
So look, that was my foray into the film industry
because when I was at NYU and right before graduation,
I had been a part of this you know performance
art dance troup called Via Theater, and we had done

(06:37):
a few shows and got great New York Times reviews,
and I was so fulfilled creatively that at the time,
I was like, even after spending it was like forty
to forty five thousand a year on NYU with curriculum
and room and board for four years, at the end
of that I was so happy with what I was
doing kind of you know avant garde theater in New

(06:57):
York City, that I said, I don't care if I
never make a dime at this. I want to do
this for the rest of my life. But then that
faithful day, why don't you just go, you know, my
friend saying you should build audition for for Tromeo. So
that that kind of changed everything because once I got
that role. Although let's just say cult film wasn't such

(07:18):
a huge departure from avant guard theater, I mean, wild, wacky,
weird stuff. I caught the film bug because when we
premiered Tromo at the can Film Markets, and I guess
it was the year after ninety six or maybe ninety seven,
I saw myself on the big screening and I thought,

(07:38):
oh my god, there's a there's a huge difference between
theater acting and film acting. And I didn't know the
difference when I made when I started that movie, and
I thought I looked like a trauma monster. You know though,
once something that like that usually happens, you know, then
I want to figure it out. So it's not that

(08:00):
I switched to the film after that, but I did
some theater. But you know, I think I racked up, like,
you know, twenty five or more independent films during that period.

Speaker 6 (08:10):
Right after Tromio in.

Speaker 7 (08:12):
New York City, there was kind of it was like
almost like the last hurrah in the film in New
York City. I guess according to Pat, you know, ninety
five ninety four, a boycott had happened, you know, a
boycott was finally over, and then a lot of in
the film in New York was getting made and you know,
good machine cineblast, Miramax, like so many great films and

(08:32):
filmmakers were coming out of New York City at the time.
So you know, I did a lot of them, and
a lot of a lot of cool stuff. You know,
a number of it got distribution, some of it broke through,
got great distribution, and some of them were never to
be seen again after that first screaming. But you know,
starting out as Tromo, which you know, it's one thing
to be a lead in the Tromo movie or to

(08:52):
be in a Troumo movie, but to be branded as Tromio.
You know, even though I was able to do a
lot of their you know films, after that, it was
almost like has It's almost like starting out porn. I mean,
Trauman German, not porn. But you know, you know, it
opened up some doors and it slammed other ones shut.

(09:12):
So after Troummeo I did, I had to work really hard.
And this was no slight against loiter Trauma there. You know,
he was a mentor of mine in a lot of ways,
and uh and fiercely independent and and just a really
good human being overall. So I don't you know, uh,
no slight on Trauma. But I had to work really
hard after Tromeo too, kind of just be you know,

(09:36):
accepted in the legitimate indie film industry if you can,
if you can, you know, call it that. And and
and at the time, they were kind of like you know,
I get. I think a lot of the you know,
the certain film organizations back that back then, you know,
kind of look down upon Trauma because of their genre

(09:57):
of filmmaking.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Will be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 7 (10:10):
But you know, they've been around for what now over
forty forty years and I think the longest, one of
the longest running independent film companies in the world. So,
I mean, Lloyd's been awarded all over the place. He's
never won the AUSTA yet, but he says I should
have won the Actor for my my second drummer movie.
I did two of them. I start as the cinema's
first her mapperdite cerial killer in Tera Firmer. He says

(10:31):
I should have won for that until until Chop, what
fans I have left say that playing the lead in
Tera Firmer was was my best role. But Chop, I think,
at least with my ten fans left, they say they
say that's the best one anyway. So that's now the
career started and then, like I said, there was I

(10:52):
think it was timing. You know, it was the last
hurrah of the only film broom in New York City,
and I was working real hard and I just got
into the scene. You know, I said to a lot
of actors. You know, I still have actors who come
either you know, I asked me to help them out
or you know it became a producer and financier to
help them with their films or to give them advice.
And you know, definitely, if you're an actor and you're

(11:14):
serious about it and you're actually getting schooling, take take
audition classes. It's a completely different technique than actual acting
on stage or film and film acting is different from
theater acting is different from TV acting is now different
from like YouTube acting. But there's a technique for auditions
all itself. And I.

Speaker 9 (11:32):
Out of like I don't know, fifty some odd projects,
you know, films, short films, TV, so and so on,
maybe less than a handful, I actually got cast via
the audition because I was just a horrible auditioner.

Speaker 7 (11:47):
And I even at NYU with all all that curriculum,
I had never taken an audition technique class, which which
I would have done. If I were to do it
over and same thing with like the business of entertainment
to the business and acting kind of classes, I would
have done the same thing. Anyway, most of the most
of the roles I was cast in as an actor

(12:07):
were you know, either someone telling the filmmaker that they
should meet me or talk to me or see my work,
or meeting the filmmaker at like an independent film event
or film festival. And you know, I like to say
I was cast more late at night at some indie
film you know event, after getting to know somebody the filmmaker,

(12:28):
than I was in auditions. But that's how it all started.
And then, you know, indie film business is hard. I mean,
even though at the last Hurrah it was never a
sustainable business. Out of all the movies I made, I
don't think I ever made a dime. In fact, I
lost a lot of personal money. And then as the
internet kind of gained influence, we saw, you know, the

(12:49):
audiences for the format of a feature lengths independent sholl
we saw we saw less and less people wanting to
go see those, especially in the theaters. You know, I
like it to mouth I were have talked to someone
pretty much under the age of thirty and say hey,
let's go see this really cool independent film. What I
get is oh God, no, please, you know, which is

(13:09):
the same thing that I used to do to people
when they had asked me, you know, in the late
nineties to go see a theater piece. You know, I
was like, oh God, so much bad theater. So many
people by the early mid two thousands had seen so
many bad independent films, you know, so that you know,
by the time the economic downturn happened, you know, and

(13:31):
I was financing movies, producing movies, getting them distributed. I
was a distributor to myself with go Kart for a
few years back then. And you know, it takes year
to at least in most cases, two years out of
your life to make an independent film. You beg borrow
and steal, and you know, you're lucky to get into
a big festival. If you do, you can have a
healthy festival run. Unfortunately, that's like you're theatrical now, because

(13:53):
you're lucky. If we get a real theatrical deal. People
are like giving their movies away to distributors. Lucky to
get a TV deal. I could get a VOD deal,
but at the end of the day. You know, you're
lucky if five thousand people see your movie. You know.
So this is like two thousand and fift two thousand
and seven, and I had a number of projects that
were you know, some were high profile and the films.

(14:16):
But then I saw, you know, and I was very
aware of online video, especially YouTube when I first came
out back then, and I just knew that that was
essentially the future. And I think, like ten years ago,
I put up my actors reel on there and I
think it has over one hundred thousand views by this point.
But you know, if I were to do it all
over again, no regrets, I'd love my life and career.

(14:37):
I'm doing fine. But I always think like, okay, you know,
if I were to have done things differently, I think
I would have essentially switched to online video back then
in two thousand and six, rather than take another a
few years doing American independent film. And then when the
economic downturn got really really bad, I think it was
two thousand and eight nine tennish I went to Bollywood.

(15:00):
I went to India at first on an exploratory trip
because they have the largest independent film industry in the
world and there's actually like four distinct film industries there, Bollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood,
you know, and so forth. That that I started working
there for a number of years and worked with some
of the biggest stars there and made a few movies there,

(15:22):
and and things were going great. I was, you know,
I was, I was well received. They kind of rolled
up the red carpet for me. My Indian friends who
tell you now tell me it was because I was
a Westerner and had some real, you know, Hollywood credits.
But you know, my trips there kept getting longer and longer,

(15:42):
and I was living like a king. I put on
me on the cover of like the New York Post
of all of the yeah called the Bombay Times of
a I think they called me a young, hot Hollywood producer.
And I had a driver, a chef, a gardener, like
I said, living like a king. But at the time
I was married to my My last trip there was

(16:03):
eight months my wife, who has a you know, it
was done very well for herself, and Hollywood said, hey, look,
you don't come back. We're gonna have a problem in
our marriage. And I'm not coming there because she she
was doing well here building up her business. So I
think it was within three days I was back on
a flight to Los Angeles, and I think it's like

(16:25):
spring of twenty eleven, and this was the time I said,
all right, this is this is a career transition, still entertainment,
but I'm going to move from you know, quote unquote
traditional film, independent film, you know, studio film, TV whatever,
to online video to digital. So I locked myself in
our house and for about three weeks, I put myself

(16:47):
through like a boot camp of trying to learn everything
I could about online video and and YouTube, especially because
that's you know, that's then that's when the it was
kind of the rise of the MCNs, the multi channel networks.
And I did that for about three weeks, and my
now ex life will tell you that we have a
big had a big dining room table was just filled

(17:09):
with stacks and printouts with highlights and notation and underlines.
And at the end of that three weeks, I was like,
you know, haha, I know everything about online video, which
wasn't true, but I was confident enough that I'm one
of those guys who thinks you know what you think
about you bring about, especially if you have positive, confident
thoughts about it. So I think it was like two

(17:30):
days later after my you know boot camp that I
put myself through to learn online video, I got a
call from the then head of human resources at a
company called Maker Studios, which was a growing multichannel network
I think it was number one or number two at
the time on YouTube as a network, and then started
working there. It was very small operation at the time.

(17:52):
The three founders hired me and I worked with them directly,
and I think I was the fifty first full time
employee and there's like three one hundred channels we had
on YouTube at the time, getting about three hundred million
views every month across the network, and the company was
valuated I think at the time at like twenty five
to thirty million dollars. And then by the time I

(18:13):
left two years later as VP of Network Development and
Original Programming the way and then I got that wrong
upf of Network Programming and Origional Development or whatever. It
was a long title. We had I think one hundred
and ten thousand channels, almost five billion views a month,
and the company was being valuated I think at the

(18:35):
time it closed to three hundred million dollars. And then
right when I knew the sale to Disney was happening.
There was going to be a big transition. I had
been getting you know, other offers from kind of rival
MCNs and so forth at the time, and and then
I accepted the job at End of Ball to be
their presidents of their first kind of digital division in

(18:57):
North America. And that was another two years after that,
which was great. That was my so, I guess, transitioning
from indie film, Bollywood film to digital. I you know,
I also went although I you know, truth to be told,
I stopped acting like Tanner or so years ago. The
movies that came out over the past I don't know

(19:17):
four or five, six years or ones that I had
been involved with from somewhere and other years ago, but
I haven't you know, sought acting roles in many, many years.
So but that was the other part of the transition.
I was, you know, going from actor, producer, so forth
and so on and traditional to digital entertainment executive. And

(19:38):
then did that for two years at end them Mall,
which was great and became then I think the first
six or eight months we got all these awards and
we're the fastest growing MCN and the there's a couple
other monikers that that we were given, which was great,
and and then after that again it was kind of
like if a mirrored maker, but there was a.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 7 (20:09):
A merger going on within them All and another big
company called Shine. And I had been told that even
before I was hired, that this merger was eventually going
to happen during my tenure. And then I said, you know,
it was an old friend and colleague, Charlie Corwin, brilliant
dude who's at least reported about to take over a

(20:30):
CEO or actually it's a new reform position as seem
to have imagined entertainment, so Charlie's killing it. So yeah,
he brought me into end them All and he told
me about the merger, and we kind of made a
gentleman's agreement. I said, all right, look, I'll build what
I say I'm going to build for two years and
then you know, kind of all bets are off, you know,
because I like to feel like I had mine crew is.
I like to build things and then essentially hopefully set

(20:52):
them up with the right people to continue them and
then move on to something else. So that happened, and
then and then I took prayer. I was asked to
join stream Up at the time the fastest growing or
now the largest and fastest growing at the time live
streaming network, and I was present of that for six months.

(21:13):
And then it was during that six months I realized that,
you know, towards the end of that, I was entering
twenty fifth year my professional career, and I really just
decided to take stock of it all, and I thought
I needed a break. I realized my mother was falling ill.

(21:33):
So I kind of announced and left that I was
taking a sabbatical for six months, a true sabbatical away
from the industry. And what I was really doing was
was doing that but also spending time with my mother
and attempting to take care of my mother as she
started to fall ill. And I thought, you know, she
would give me at least the six months, but I

(21:54):
got there, and my sisters say, she just kind of
waited for me to come home to pass because she
gave me si days instead of six months, and that
was July fifth. And then instead of like you know,
going right back to work or going right back to Hollywood,
I decided to continue with the sabbatical and reconnect with
family and friends, and then you know, really kind of
going all walk about and decide what I wanted to

(22:17):
do with the next few years or with the rest
of my life and the career, and it kind of all,
you know, came together. It's like divine intervention because, you know,
my mother's little condominium in South New Jersey when I
would come home, and unfortunately, you know, the past few years,
it was only I was only able to get home

(22:37):
two or three times a year, whether just to go
see her and my family, or because I was at
buitiness or I was speaking at you know, conferences or
conventions in New York. I always visit them. But it
used to be before she started to fall ill a
few years ago, you know, that everyone could come over
and we used to sleep sixth to the floor friend's

(22:59):
family when I was back in town. But you know,
as she started to get sick, I realized, you know,
I couldn't make her house the congregation house anymore. So
I'd been looking for property to buy in South Jersey.
But then everything happened. She passed quicker than I had imagined.
So then there was this opportunity to buy this over

(23:19):
a finish one hundred eight year old historic church in
Cape May County, KA Courthouse to be such specific one
of the favorite areas of my mother, and I renamed
it Saint Babb's in honor of my mother. Her name
is Barbara, and I started the foundation, a not for
profit out of one suit three charity called the Barbara A.
C's Keenan Foundation, and it's essentially to continue her work.

(23:43):
She was a registered nurse her whole life and career,
and if you look at some of our online channels,
you'll see that people have said that she was like
the mother Teresa of nursing.

Speaker 6 (23:53):
You know.

Speaker 7 (23:54):
So I really believe that my mother did not become
a doctor, which is what everyone thought she should do,
because she kind of raced through nursing school and and
was the kind of nurse where doctors would defer to her.
But I believe she didn't go because she had to
put me through NYU. And in that way, this was

(24:16):
my way of saying, Okay, like, you know, some people
think I'm nuts for you know, what a lot of
people would think is, you know, peak of my career
right now to kind of leave Hollywood and go do
this this not for profit, but I kind of think
the opposite. To me, it's, you know, I'm doing doing
this to spread her good work and to also take

(24:38):
all the skills I've learned in Hollywood and apply them
to something that you know, I think can do some
real good in this community and the surrounding communities where
we are in South Jersey. But also it's going to
have a very strong online digital component, so I hope
to be able to you know, do the same kind
of you know, services for people online as well. That
was a long winded answer to so tell us about

(25:01):
how you started your career. In fact, I started and
finished my career. There you go.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
Uh, it's it's okay.

Speaker 5 (25:08):
Well, I I tend to ask open ended questions and uh,
you know, I I love hearing stories like yours, and
you know, that was an amazing, amazing, you know career
you've had, you know, but you know, and and there's
certain things obviously I want to ask some more questions about,
you know, just just sort of going back to talking
about how when you know, when you first got started

(25:29):
and you were working on Tromeo and Juliet.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
You know, James Gunn was a writer on that and
you know James Gunn.

Speaker 7 (25:36):
Yeah, he was. He was Lloyd's right hand James wrote it.
He was the and i'd say the main uh non
financial producer, you know, besides Lloyd. And you know, Lloyd
is the first to admit this. And maybe people watch
you know, certain documentaries, uh Farts of Darkness, Trump the

(25:58):
Trump Apocalypse movie. You know, Lloyd gives people like James
and myself and after me, I think it was Trenhaga,
not the people before. He He takes people like that
who show the passionate drive, have the talent and and
who will you know, stay up all night to to

(26:20):
make you know, make the Trauma movie. Uh. He gives
them a lot of economy. And uh you know so James,
James did so much. I mean he you know, he
essentially you know, these people like James, myself for Terry
Film or Trent for some toxy fo. You know, it's
an uncredited, uncredited kind of co director of position. And

(26:42):
I think Lloyd has said that before. But you know,
you work with all the actors, you rehearsed them, you
stage all the scenes. You know, there's so much. And James,
you know, not only wrote a brilliant script, but you
know he was beside Lloyd. It was the main guy
on that movie.

Speaker 5 (27:00):
Yeah, it's you know, I've actually had Lloyd on the
podcast before, and we've talked to you know about about
you know, James, and also about you know, about Trent
and also about you know, we were just saying where
he you know, he would find different people and uh,
you know sort of shepered them along in different projects.
You'll give him, give him a chance, you know, to
you know, maybe rate the next s Troma movie. And
you know that's you know, it's just funny. It's a
small world because usually most people have on this podcast

(27:22):
one way or another, have met, met or worked with
Lloyd in some capacity because he's everywhere, right, And we've.

Speaker 6 (27:28):
All learned so much from Lloyd. I mean I didn't
go to.

Speaker 7 (27:31):
Film school, right, so Trauma was my film school. Uh,
and it was the art of low budget filmmaking and
the art of guerrilla marketing, you know, the art of
the sound boye the sound bite. Lloyd is. Lloyd is
a genius. And you know, one of the things we
all learned from him is that, you know, he's a
very very passionate guy. So his energy, especially on set

(27:52):
is is uh is so so very intense. But he's
been doing it so long and he's such you know,
he's a genius and wealth that he has this intuition,
the sixth sense about him. Like I remember, he'd be
saying things, well, you gotta you gotta watch out for this,
you gotta worry about that, and I'm like, well, that
will never happen because of this or that, and He's
just like, all right, all right, you'll see you'll sing,
and then it would happen. And I'd be like, there

(28:13):
was no rational reason for that to happen except Woyd
just can He could almost foresee the future when it
comes to being on a film set. It was. It's amazing.
So we've all learned so so much from Lloyd. And
then you know, look, you know there's so many people
who've gone through you know, the trauma school, so to speak,
and look what they're doing now. I think James gunn

(28:34):
Is is put the latest you know, uh, you know,
prototypicals that got a work example.

Speaker 6 (28:40):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (28:41):
He's one of the biggest directors in Hollywood right now.
And you know, I am honored that James and I
made our first movie together and that was Tronio.

Speaker 5 (28:51):
Yeah, it's amazing, you know how how far James has gotten,
you know, when he made Super and then he made
and now with Guardian's The Galaxy.

Speaker 7 (28:59):
I means, well, here's what I told James this like
Super although an awesome movie and produced by someone I
had worked with before, Ted Hope, one of the one
of the best, you know, film producers in the world.
He's now running Amazon Film. And before Super came out,
like Ted's got a bit, you know, a pretty sizable

(29:20):
social media audience, James had one. And if I at
the time, if I were to go by what social
media was saying, I thought Super, which I think the
budget was around four million dollars, was going to be
like a hit, you know, like the indie film, the
real four million dollars indie film that could but theatrically.
And this goes back to what I was saying, you know,

(29:40):
about switching when I decided to switch from indie film
to digital theatrically, you know, I think it made one
hundred thousand dollars a box office. And as someone who
started out with James, who you know, was a supporter
of James and you know, a longtime friend of James.
I was like, oh shit, man, this could hurt his career.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
You know, we'll be right back after a word from
our sponsor and now back to the show.

Speaker 6 (30:09):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (30:10):
And and I thought he was he would have been
left for dead, you know. But Marvel such an amazing,
amazing company and amazing movies. They I'm told, not by James,
you know, you hear stories that that they started to
look at some of the properties and characters and brands

(30:30):
that have not been licensed either by others or you know,
Marvel would make in partnership with others, and they started
looking at and then they started, you know, attaching essentially
you know, known fanboy directors, ones that have the cred,
you know, the kind of the fan cred and the
cult cred like James, and then hire them and surround
them with with you know, top abub line crew and

(30:53):
and wow, look look what he was able to accomplish,
you know, with essentially Marvel backing him. After you know,
he he had a movie that wasn't a huge, huge hit.
I think it critically it was it was okay. But
you know, when I was a producer and actually raising
the money for movies, I started. And this is right
before I switched to digital, started becoming a tyrant in

(31:14):
a way because you know, every two hundred thousand bucks,
every million bucks you know in an independent film is
it's because you know a lot of them go to
the budget, although not mine where I was writing checks,
and it takes so much out of your life that uh,
I hold on real quick. My dog wants to get

(31:35):
in hold on all right? Ervany here? All right?

Speaker 6 (31:39):
Where was I What was I talking about?

Speaker 4 (31:41):
Are you talking about your money in the producing any film?

Speaker 7 (31:45):
Oh? Yeah that, Oh yeah, I was becoming a tyrant
where you know, when it came to i'd source the property,
I'd start to come up with the potential like talent
and above the line crew attachments, and then I would
I would talk to my pool of investors and then
start you know, early talks with distributors and buyers and
so forth. And it got to the point where unless

(32:08):
the directors you know, on my short list, unless their
last movie was a critical and commercial success, like I
don't care if you made the movie for a dollar,
did you make the dollar back? Did you make a
dollar and ten cents? You know, because a lot of
those things when you're doing the financing of independent films.
A lot of those things, you know, falls into the
whole number crunching algorithm, you know, bankable or not, you

(32:31):
know what I mean. And that was in addition to
me trying to put in in successfully the last three movies,
putting in directors contracts that you know they were obligated to,
you know, produce a shot list and storyboards and everything,
because too many times in an indie film, I mean

(32:52):
it's like, look, if you're making a movie that costs
a dollar or one hundred thousand or a million, it's
the same. It's essentially the same amount of work. You know,
the crew could be bigger or smaller, but when you
really break it down this it was a very smart
production manager named Randy Terureau in La who taught me
this when we were making a movie called The Politics

(33:15):
of Love because Shirley McLain, the Oscar went in actress,
was in the cast and she wanted she wanted her
character to have like one of those little lap dogs
when almost as a prop and she was an Oscar
winning actress, and I was a little not starstruck, but

(33:38):
I wanted to make her happy because if Shirley McLain
isn't happy. We got problems with the production. Okay, But
when I was telling my production manager about this, he's like, no,
it'll cost too much money. I'm like, what are you
talking about? It was a dog cost per day and
it will only be like you know, I think it
was nine days out of the eighteen day shoot we
would need the dog. And yeah, the trainer you need

(34:00):
need a trainer, you know, legally and all that kind
of stuff. He said, Okay, there's that. This is how
much that costs. He said, but when you break down
our budget, every day of shooting, every ten minutes costs
this much money. And he said, if that dog proves
on fet if that dog won't do the take, you
know you're wasting five minutes, ten minutes. There's thousands, tens

(34:21):
of thousands of dollars going out the door. And I
was like, oh, are you shit man? So that was
one of uh, that was one of the one of
the lessons. I know what brought me that was I
trying to get to another larger point. Yeah it's James. Yeah,
So anyway, Uh, Viva James Gone, Viva lost, James gunn

(34:43):
Viva Lou James gun.

Speaker 4 (34:46):
It's good.

Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yeah, it's just a yeah, like you were saying with
super Yeah, I was just going to say that, you know,
it's amazing you know that that you know what he
what he you know, we're you know, uh, he's been
able to do and that's why I always always but he.

Speaker 6 (34:59):
Never he never went to film school either.

Speaker 7 (35:01):
Yeah, you know, Trauma was his film school and here
he's you know, how many how many studio like Superhero movie,
you know, mainstream like popcorn movie directors never went to
film school. Yeah, I mean I guess James Gunn did.
He went, he went to the the Film School of Trauma,

(35:22):
but he was you know, I think he had just
graduated or he was his last jun year or something
at Columbia as a writer. You know when when we
started Trauma in ninety summer of ninety styles.

Speaker 5 (35:36):
Yeah, because we need to look at all the directors
that went to that that didn't go to film school.
I mean like Tarantino didn't go. I can't remember if
Kevin Smith hasn't gone. But but yeah, and James Gunn you.

Speaker 4 (35:46):
Know you get out there.

Speaker 6 (35:47):
Yeah, there's not there's not many.

Speaker 7 (35:49):
I mean who get like or even Tarantino movies. You know,
they they limited that budget to a certain extent, you
know what I mean. I think James Gun's first Guardians
of the Galaxy budget was I'm just going to take
a lot guests here, considerably higher than all of Tarantino's budgets.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
Yeah, I think the first Guardians was somewhere around maybe
one or one twenty.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
I think somewhere around there.

Speaker 7 (36:15):
Yeah, And you look, you would know better than me.
And I'm guessing Tarantino got to play with one hundred
milli at least for one of his movies. But maybe,
you know, maybe not. I think when you add the
marketing into you know, the budgets, but then you know,
same thing. You you add how much they spent on
marketing Guardians, and it blows you know, the overall budget

(36:38):
of any of Tarantino's movies out of the water. I think
I'm right, And if anyone's listening to this podcast, please
google it right now and find out.

Speaker 5 (36:46):
I'm pretty yeah, I'm like one hundred percent sure that
you know, you're you're absolutely right, will because you.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Know, I think the most money a Tarantino movie.

Speaker 5 (36:54):
Costs to make just production without marketing I think was
was Inglorious or Jango, and I want to say it
was around sixty million just to make it. If he
had in marketing, it's probably you know, bumped up to
maybe one hundred or so.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
But with Guardians, I mean it's probably when you can.

Speaker 6 (37:10):
Yeah, And there's the difference.

Speaker 7 (37:11):
I mean, Tarantino's movies are although James wrote the script
for Guardians, they were the original concepts and the inception
of the idea was his right and he he you know,
his I guess his first real breakout film was Reser
war Dogs and then you know, with Harvey and played
the Mirrimax game for a while and James was hired

(37:32):
to write and direct Guardians. But you know, that was
you know, it was it was I think a long
time coming for James. He's been, you know, a comic
book fan for a long long time. I'm sure Tarantino
is as well to a certain extent, but maybe maybe
not you know, like James's. Although I have to believe
Tarantino has been offered to direct and or write some

(37:56):
kind of superhero movie.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:59):
I think he was trying at one point to get
on the Bond franchise and I think when they were
gonna reboot Cassino Royale, uh or yeah, and I think
he made a pitch and then and they they were
actually gonna, like legitimate think about hiring him, and instead
they went they went, I don't think it was Sam
Menday's on that one, but I forget who it was
on the first Christina Reale.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
But but yeah, so that's you know, who knows.

Speaker 5 (38:20):
But if hearinginge, could ever you know, do the Superhero
movie the way because.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
I mean, you know, sometime again, like you said, well, when.

Speaker 7 (38:27):
You're working with the studio, retire soon well.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
After ten movies. So he's got he's got two left.

Speaker 6 (38:34):
Okay, so maybe one will be a Superhero movie.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
Yeah, I know, because you know, when you're working with studios,
there's expectations of you know, like I said, intellectual property
of freezects and characters and you know making and then
you know you have your artist's vision and you know,
as we speak about that, that's something that has you know,
I've seen as sort of it's almost a miss mixed
match of styles. And I think James has been one
of those guys who was even this is even more

(38:56):
rare now because when you see these different styles, you know,
you're see the the problems with Fantastic Four and Josh
Trank h. Then you see the problems with you know,
like Suicide Squad and David Ayers. There's just there's a
clash of styles and it's just and I they a
lot of these studios want to go out and they
want to get you know, Alvan Gard directors or maybe
some indie Darling directors, but but it very rarely does

(39:19):
it ever work out.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
And then it worked out for James. But you know,
as you.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
Talk about independent l mail, will you know you talk
about you know, making independent films. You know, have you
you know, see you know, with all the advances in
digital technology and you work for Makers Studio, have you
ever thought about you know, maybe you know, uh going
on like Kickstarter or Indiegogo or maybe crowdfunding, uh like
an indie film with again with a smaller budget and

(39:43):
maybe you know, shooting it on like you know, like
a red or you know something like that that's a
digital format.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
Have you ever thought about that?

Speaker 3 (39:51):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor

Speaker 7 (40:00):
Yeah, I mean I have, and I may you know
I have, you know, I'm doing what I'm doing now
in the Saint Babs the foundation I started down here
in Kate May. But and there will be, you know,
there's a number of aspects to it. There's definitely going
to be community services and self development. There's gonna be

(40:22):
a large recovery aspect. My sister who teaches that you pen,
she's big in the recovery movement, so she's gonna be
doing a lot of those things here. And there'll also
be you know, kind of an arts education aspect to
what we're doing down here. And I do plan on
creating uh, you know, content for a number of platforms
here and as far as like you know, the format

(40:44):
of feature length storytelling, the narrative feature film. I have
one or two I think you know, left in me
as far as you know, uh getting them off the
ground and and and you know, executing them. H And
crowd funding may be you know, a way to go
for one or both of those. We'll see, you know,

(41:04):
When I was making indie movies back in the day,
pre internet and then after the Internet, you know, before
crowdfunding came about, you I raised my money mainly from
you know, Wall Street, dudes who would throw in fifty
grand or one hundred grand up pop and didn't expect
it back. They really just wanted to meet the actresses.
And you know, there was foreign pre sales. There were

(41:24):
a number of different you know kind of independent film
financial products back then, which which you know, I think
it was during that economic downturn. I was thoughting about,
you know, a lot of the funders left in the
indie film and some of them that you know, a
number of them have not come back. It's harder and harder.
But the bright light I think for indie film at
least creation has been crowd funding. When you look at Kickstarter,

(41:47):
when you look at indiegg, I think they've funded more
independent films, you know, than than true independent uh you know,
film finance companies, whether it's banks or hedge funds or
so flick and so on. So a lot, you know,
a lot more getting funded that way. And I also
think it's a great kind of democratizer because when people,

(42:10):
you know, they have they have an idea for an
indie film, it's a story they've fallen in love with.
You know. I still get people pitching me, you know,
and they'll send me the script or whatever. And even
before I read a script, I'll have a lot of questions.
And you know, I'm that guy who thinks he's so
good at it that he can read a script and like,
tell you, what do you want to make it for him?
They tell me four million. I'm like, you'd be crazy
to make this for over four hundred thousand, because I'm

(42:32):
also thinking about, you know, the back end, Like what
is the audience for this movie? Is it true that
you know a number of people are going to go
and see it and make that four hundred thousand or
four million dollars back? Because you know, James, is you know,
one of a million. Because most of the time, when
you make a movie that doesn't make it money back,
you're making it and you're making it harder for yourself

(42:54):
to make your next movie. You know, I've had plenty
of mentors tell me, hey, don't rush into just making
this movie. If it takes four years to put together
the right movie, let it take that long. Because if
you're just one of those filmmakers like I just need
to make another movie, and you make something and you
do it quickly, and yeah, it gets into a festival
or whatever, but you know, you beg borrow and stole

(43:15):
hundreds of thousands or more dollars to make the movie
and it didn't know it wasn't critically acclaimed, and it
wasn't some kind of commercial success, even just one dollar
in the black. Then then you're actually hurting your own
career as a filmmaker. So the next movies I make,
I mean, I may you know, truth be told. I

(43:36):
still at least a few times a year, I get
asked to, you know, star in a movie that's of
the genre I'm known for, like I guess comedy, horror
or cold movies, and I may you know. I've been
saying no for years because as an executive, you know,
I can't divide my focus. And I'm and I was

(43:57):
very very concerned that if I continued acting while I
was an executive that of a company I was working for,
I'd be like, oh see, he still just wants to
be an actor or whatever, you know, So I was
I really wanted to make that crystal clear to people.
And you know, I think it was one of the
variety writers that told me that. You know, if you

(44:19):
take Tom Cruise and all the big actors who created
their own production companies out of it. I think they
said I was the first actor who used to like
starting real movies.

Speaker 6 (44:30):
Yeah they weren't eighty million dollar movies.

Speaker 7 (44:31):
But who then of his own accord, essentially not creating
a production company, but was hired to be an executive
and then and then you know, kind of rose the
uh the executive ranks at least in the digital world
within a when a short period of time.

Speaker 6 (44:46):
Uh, but where are we going with that?

Speaker 7 (44:49):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (44:49):
No, we were just talking about independent film and uh
I was going to say, you're you're you're a trailblazer
in that in that regard will because you know, just
like you know they were saying, was you know, you're
actually you know, sort of starting your own almost like
I guess I don't want to say marketing funnel, but
but in a way, you are, if you know what
I mean, because you're you know, you're finding the scripts,
you're and then you're you know, you know what, you

(45:11):
know what what's gonna you know, what what's to make
production for. So like you just said, you know, don't
make this for four million, make it for four hundred thousand. Uh,
you know, because you know that production side of it.

Speaker 6 (45:20):
If you have to make it. And we've all talked
to filmmakers like I have.

Speaker 7 (45:24):
To make this movie, I have to make this story.
And you know, I will grill directors like why why
do you have to make I'll keep going because I'm
trying to get down to like the essence of it.
And I've had you know, once I start to break
them down, I've heard I've had filmmakers say to me,
I just want to lock people in a room and
force my emotions on them. I'm like, all right, no,
that's evil or some of them say. Some of them

(45:48):
say like I just want to make the movie. I
would want to go and see I was like, all right,
that's eight people, here's eighty dollars. Make a YouTube video,
you know, you know, and and look, plenty of people
get what made just because of their their force of will.
But it's not to say that there's an audience for them.
It's not to say, you know, it's not going to

(46:09):
hurt your career that doesn't do well. It's like, you
can be original by looking at what you know, by
giving people what they want at the same time, you know,
and you can you can add your own voice or
your own style to something that people actually want to watch.
That's why you know, I'm looking at I've been in
the digital world for years now, and you know, these

(46:30):
are my minds in many cases, the new stars they're
putting butts and seats, they're you know, they're the new
A listers in a way, you know, and we're seeing them,
these digital stars, these YouTube styles or Instagram influencers, they're
seeing them. They makem movies now and due to do TV.

(46:50):
So I think, you know, it's essentially traditional and digital
or conversion, which is a really really exciting time because
it also affords you know, people just starting out or
even people who've been doing it for a while, there's
a new avenue to want to express yourself and or
to you know, the new getting discovered at Schwab's drug

(47:10):
store is the Internet.

Speaker 5 (47:13):
Yeah, it's just you know, making a YouTube, you know channel,
Like when you were at Maker, you guys ended up
attracting Paudie Pie and you know, now he you know,
he was discovered and you know that just his whole career.
Director Now he's the number one YouTuber in the world.
And you know it's funny as we you know, as
you were talking about budgets.

Speaker 7 (47:29):
You know.

Speaker 5 (47:30):
Well, it's funny because I had a friend of mine
who actually wrote a literal one location script and it
was going to take place inside of his own house.
He could shoot it there, and you know, and I said,
you know, it was kind of it's kind of stereotypical
of an indie film.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
It's a lot it's about a guy who loses a girl.
You know, it's one of those.

Speaker 5 (47:49):
But you know, he's at his house, and so what
happens is it was gonna be his house right in
one location. And he ended up, you know, meeting me
later on and said, okay, I got raised two hundree
thousand dollars to shoot this thing.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
And I said, wait a minute, what do you need
two hundred thousand dollars for?

Speaker 5 (48:04):
Like I've read this script. I said, you could shoot
this in for like probably the change in your couch.

Speaker 6 (48:10):
And he was to see his top line budget and
how much he was paying himself.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
Well, well, it's funny, I was. It's funny.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
What happened was, I said, you know, where's all this
money going? He goes, well, you know, I have to
pay a cinematographer. I've got to pay this I got
to pay that well, he ended up getting a production
company involved, and he actually sat down with one of
their producers and she even said, like, I don't know
where all this extra money, you know, where you got
two hundred thousand dollars from? And she got she said,
if we could do his whole thing for fifty and

(48:37):
even I said, you know what I said, you know,
even that, I was like, you could probably shoot you know,
prior for a little cheaper.

Speaker 7 (48:43):
But but you know, it look good and that's thanks
to technology.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, and still make it look good because you
know at some point, by the way, he ended up
never making that film, by the way, Uh so uh.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
You know, but you know it's just it.

Speaker 10 (48:57):
Wasn't The factmakers is that if you can write it
that the story is really really good, that you have
and you are dead set on getting this movie made,
and in a way budgets shouldn't matter, right and.

Speaker 7 (49:10):
In a way it shouldn't matter where the money comes from,
so for with and so on. But write the script
as if you were going to make it yourself. In
this case, your friend wrote like a one location script,
you know, And that's probably one of the biggest budget
busters when people write scripts and stories that they have
too many locations, too many set ups, so with and
so on, too many you know characters. But many times

(49:36):
people come up with the good you know, writers filmmakers
come up with a good story and they overwrite it,
meaning that it's it's a good story, but because of
the way they wrote it with all the locations, now
you can't make it for anything less than twenty million,
forty million, four hundred million dollars, right so, and that's
that's a tough, you know, mountain to climb. So what

(49:57):
I say is that you know, will be right.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
to the show.

Speaker 7 (50:08):
The essence of it. You know, if it can be
done in five locations, doing five locations, if the story
when you start sending out the script, the script and
the characters, the dialogue, the story starts resonating with people
or resonating with you know, big production companies, they'll find
ways to make it a bigger movie and increase the budget.

(50:28):
You don't have to do that for them. If you
really want to get the movie made, write the script
where you know you can make the movie for a
certain amount of money. But you know, if everyone still
has the idea that you know, imagine entertainment is going
to option your script. They will if they like it,
whether or not it looks like, you know, a two
hundred million dollar movie or a twenty million dollar movie,

(50:49):
or a two million dollar movie or twenty or two
hundred thousand dollars movie. You know, if if it's good,
it's good, and you can always broaden the scope and
you you know, it's much. You know, an acting, we
used to say, ah, it's much. It's it's easier to
go bigger as an actor and then tone it down

(51:11):
than it is for someone who's very tone down to
do a big performance, you know. So with with script writing,
I think it's the opposite. It's like, you know, you
have the story, then keep it, keep it small. But
the the good elements of you know, of the script
are are noticeable so that you can expand it from there.

(51:33):
Because it's much harder to take a really really good
script that my god, I love it, but there's no
way you can make this for under one hundred million dollars. Uh.
Then there's a lot of work that goes into trying
to pare down paardown and and then you know, you
have the filmmaker who's watching his you know, these these
these you know, ten million dollars scenes that he was
so attached to, you know, get get thrown out to

(51:56):
make it for you know much less.

Speaker 6 (52:00):
That make sense.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
And I'm glad you brought that up too, Will, because
you know, you do have four writing credits, and I
wanted to ask, you know, at least you know, touch
on you know, your writing process, because you know, I
wanted to dig into that a little more and ask
you do you so actually I'll just ask that you know, what,
what what is your process on writing?

Speaker 7 (52:18):
Will?

Speaker 5 (52:18):
Do you do you ever do subscribe to a method
or do you just sort of, you know, have your
own process?

Speaker 6 (52:25):
Yeah? I think, well, it depends on what I'm writing. Right.

Speaker 7 (52:28):
I haven't taken part in writing a future length film
script in in a while, but if I remember correctly,
you know, once I'm in the mode of knowing, I
have to get it, get it done. And in most
cases I think I wrote with partners and then we
would kind of divide work, you know, well, you write
this sestion or this scene or so forth, and then

(52:49):
and the other one writes this one, and then when
we're done, we we passed them to one another and
essentially edit them or or co write the scenes. So
when I was writing future film scripts where it was
alone or with a partner, you know, I went through
a process and I think I consider myself a fast writer.
You know, there might be I might be able to

(53:11):
bust out a full script or you know, at least
my what I'm supposed to do for the script you
know pretty quickly. But then, you know what they say
writing is rewriting it. So it's always kind of like
fine tuning and polishing. But just like you know what
great filmmakers said it about full movies, but same thing
with scripts. It's like, you know, they they're never done.
You could keep going forever making it better. There's always

(53:33):
room for improvement essentially, right, But there's comes a point
where where you have to say, Okay, it's it's go time.
You know, there's not it's it's it's to the point
where other people are saying, this is great, let's I
want to be involved in this, even though you know
there's still more refining to be done. But that can
be done essentially later in the process in pre production
or even on set or rehearsals with the actors and

(53:55):
so forth.

Speaker 5 (53:57):
Yeah, and you also you're talking about you know, what
you have to right you know, as if we again
the difference between you bring an independent film or maybe
if you're good, let's just say you're going to write
a film right now. I always tell people to, you know,
do their Roriga's list, you know what actors have access to,
what locations I have access to, what props do I
have access to, and build a film around that that

(54:19):
you know, what you have, and then you can sort
of make a film around that.

Speaker 7 (54:23):
And then you're baking into the cake stuff you already know.

Speaker 6 (54:27):
And they say, write what you know?

Speaker 5 (54:29):
You know, yeah, rather than you know, make a script
where it's going to cost you know, fifty million dollars
and explosives and and stunt work and and squibs everything
else and you don't have you know, we can't shoot
that at my grandmam's house or anything, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
It's it's uh so you know, when I was making.

Speaker 7 (54:44):
Money, these are filmmakers who actually want to direct their
own movies. And we all know the stories about people
who wrote scripts but they wanted to direct and they
didn't or you know, stuck to their guns and did.
But there are some writers out there who just want
to write a big studio movie. And that's you know,
that's different from what I was talking about, you know,
out writing for budget.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
Oh yeah, you know absolutely. I was just gonna say.

Speaker 5 (55:05):
You know, when I was making my student film again,
I didn't go to film school either, And when I
was making my student film, basically that's what we did.
We figured out what locations we had and we just
pulled all our resources together and we we shot a
film my my one friend's grand grandparents' house, and that
became pretty much like five locations because we would use
different rooms for different things. And it's just you know,
again using what we have. You know, we have access

(55:27):
to the sort of you know, to make these indie films.
And like I tell people, if you even if you
make an indie film and you realize, you know what,
maybe this isn't going to go anywhere, you know what
I suggest? Well, honestly I tell people sometimes just put
on YouTube. I know, it's as weird as that sounds, yeah,
because that way, at least you know it's gonna get seen.
And two it could you know, maybe you old track

(55:47):
somebody who says, hey, you know what if you do
that for nothing, you know, maybe you know, with a
big note, let's see what you can do with a
slightly bigger budget of maybe you know, five.

Speaker 7 (55:54):
Thousand exactly without if you finished your movie, the shorter
feature and it's you know, it wasn't getting it isn't
getting accepted the festivals. You only recourses to put it online,
you know, and hope and hope that you know, you
can attract some attention, like you know, to me, the
especially you're going up against you know, you finish your film,

(56:17):
you're going up against so many other movies, a lot
of them well funded, especially in a marketing campaign, you know,
so you can't compete with that. How how do you compete?
It's one of the things Ted Hope was saying when
he you know, he's been he's been sounding the siren
of the deafnel of indie film for for years and
now he's part of you know, one of the main

(56:38):
people I think bringing it back with Amazon's backing, which
is great. But but Ted used to say, like from
day one, you know, when you're writing your script, you
start putting online you know, you create a page for
your movie and you start putting online like you know,
taking a picture of the title page, the cover page
of your script and putting up there and start engaging people.

(57:00):
And they did that with Super throughout. It's why I
thought it was going to be such a big hit.
You know, you take pictures of casting and there's so
many you know, there's you can do live streams of
your your table read and so forth. Because you're essentially
engaging people who hopefully by the time your movie is
for released, they they feel somewhat invested in it, you know,
and that that's your audience, because you don't have fifty

(57:21):
or one hundred million dollars to essentially you know, the
Hollywood business model of of just moving butts and seats
from one movie to the next via you know essentially
TV and online advertising that costs a lot of money.

Speaker 4 (57:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:36):
Absolutely, And you know that's you know again, you know,
we have all these options that are coming out.

Speaker 7 (57:41):
I might go farther and this is this is where
filmmakers start to hate me because I try to talk
people out of filmmaking because I know I know what
goes into it, I know what the what the success
rate is. And I try to talk to people out
of acting. And that's what you know, when I said
when I grill filmmakers are grill actors. I want to
find out what their true purpose is with what they
want to do. Is it famee you know, which is

(58:02):
kind of shallow? Is it you know, you want to
change the world? Is it you want to impress some
people like you know? And if I find that the
the underlying kind of you know, foundation is is you know,
a positive one and makes sense to me, then I'll
try to help them. But there's plenty of people who
made films that should have been you know, instead of
finishing it and putting it on YouTube because no one

(58:25):
else wants to will play it, you know, maybe don't
make the movie in the first place and make a
short film and put it on YouTube. That is the
essence of your feature. And you know, yeah, a long
gar of the days where you know, a short film
at some dance would strike a free picture feature deal,
you know, but there is a version of that and
it's and it's YouTube now, so it's like, what's uh.

(58:48):
You know a lot of people have gotten future film
deals from shorts on YouTube. But if you've already made
your movie, then yeah, you got to put it online
and you got to try to show some kind of
audience for it. Because whether you're you know, whether I
was a digital exec or a film producer, if I'm
looking at if you know, if someone pitches me something

(59:09):
and I like the idea and I take a meeting
or I want to learn more. You know, either the
movie played festivals and got distribution and there's numbers to
look at, or you know, I can see the film itself.
But if I see it on online and it looks
like it got ten thousand, one hundred thousand views, or
there's engagement people really like it, then that helps me,

(59:30):
you know, that helps me as as a green lighter,
as a decision maker. A lot of people are still like, well,
I don't want to put it up there. I don't
want someone to steal my idea that is long and gone,
that's been gone ever since the internet came out. You know,
you can hold your precious idea and never get it made,
or you can, you know, start to put it out
there and do it, do your idea better than anyone

(59:53):
else could, so you become that person. You know, when
it comes to that idea.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
You know what I'm saying, Yeah, that makes absolute perfect sense. Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
You know, I had a manager before. They weren't meaning
they weren't representing me or anything. But I was talking
to them about this project that I did, and he
was very adamate.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
He said, don't put it online.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
He goes, don't do anything with it, and he goes,
just so, and and now other marketers who I really.

Speaker 7 (01:00:27):
Responded, I'm not an agist, but I'm guessing this was
a few years ago, and they they were unaware of
the influence that comes with people engaging with you or
your content online.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
Yes, this is probably about four years ago or so.
This is he was.

Speaker 5 (01:00:45):
He's playing in his forties and now you know, it's
talking to marketers. They were like, Dave, just you know,
do your thing. Uh So, I'm actually, you know, that's
been something I've been sort of.

Speaker 7 (01:00:55):
Yeah, the only people who listen, the only people in
my estimation who are getting signed, you know, by top
agencies or managers. And I've seen it for the past
number of years. And I was actually a conduit for
a number of them happening. You know, talents, whether it's
on camera challenge or behind the camera talent. The ones
who are getting signed are the ones who are building

(01:01:16):
audiences by themselves online. You know, there's plenty of talent
out there who are not putting their stuff online, and
they're great. They could be better than the talents who
are getting jobs now. But this is how to get
jobs now. But no one ever sees your work. If
no one ever sees your work, then then you know,
continue with that with that second career, and that's probably

(01:01:39):
all you're going to get.

Speaker 5 (01:01:41):
Yeah, it's very it's very true. You know, I've had
Jason Rubriker on here from Mistriver. They actually put together
a movie project for Netflix, all from all YouTubers. They
got some of the top YouTubers, put them all together
in a movie and sold us a Netflix. And you
know it worked out well because everyone you know there.

Speaker 7 (01:01:59):
That's big business right now. I consider that a new
genre of independent filmmaking. But it's the only one. And
you know, you might have to check this too, but
I'm going to make a grand statement that the only
independent films that have made their money back and gone
into profit except for you know, the ones that really

(01:02:19):
break through and get nominated for rosters. The only independent
films that make their money back and or going to
profit in the past few years have been ones that
have digital stars in them. And I'm talking truly independent films,
you know. And if you you know and name me
a time when a genre, an independent film was profitable.

(01:02:42):
This might be the first time independent films starring digital
influencers might be the first time independent film and is
a sustainable business.

Speaker 6 (01:02:51):
At least for at least for a minute, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 5 (01:02:55):
Yeah, yeah, it is true. And also you know, they
come with their own building, audience and everything, and I
mean that's what. So it's so you know, interesting for investors,
and you know, it's why in distributors as well. And
you know, and again I think that as we slowly
go aboard, you know, like you were saying, that's sort
of being discovered in in the old sweet shop. You know,
there's old stories of Hollywood where you know, an actress

(01:03:16):
was discovered at like a malt shop or something.

Speaker 7 (01:03:19):
This is this is the new way, right, Yeah, No,
that's it. I mean, that's that's how you get discovered,
you know, tell actors too. It's it's like they're serious.
They're even going to acting school like some of them,
you know, expensive acting schools, and and they're not online.
You know, they're not they're not showing their acting talent online.

(01:03:40):
And it boggles my mind because when I was a
young actor before the Internet, I would hope that I
would have embraced it if the Internet were there, and
I would have you know, essentially showed off my talent
online and and that will works. I've seen it work
for a lot of a lot of people in you know,
in the years after. But the ones who are like, no,

(01:04:02):
they're still doing back, you know, an actor is still
doing like black box theater, but but they're doing nothing online.
I'm like, you know, and I don't know if it's
because their their curriculum keeps them so so busy and
they don't have time to be online. But to me,
it's the only way to get discovered.

Speaker 5 (01:04:21):
Now, yeah, that's so, that's so true. And you know,
because I've had people in here and they've we've talked
about a lot of the competitions and stuff like that,
and I think, you know, it's sort of putting it
all together as well, you know, I have a friend
of mine who's ben here.

Speaker 7 (01:04:34):
I mean screenwriting competitions, or we'll say competition.

Speaker 5 (01:04:37):
Well, I generally mean screenwriting competitions. But what I was
going to say was.

Speaker 6 (01:04:42):
Yeah, all that stuff's good.

Speaker 7 (01:04:43):
Submit your script and if you get, like as a
finalist in Nickels or ones that are known awesome, it's
like a feather in the cap and it would make
someone like me or you know, other green lights or whatever,
you know, put your script near the top, like, oh okay, soone,
you know, it's the group thing someone else like when
I heard of them, and then we we might still

(01:05:04):
read your script, you know what I mean. But as
as important, if not more, is that, you know, you know,
let's say, instead of instead of getting a screenwriting Fellowship
award for your script, which yes, agencies, managers, production companies,

(01:05:24):
if you have that on there, they'll be like, oh okay,
I guess we should really read this one. But at
the same time, and maybe even more powerful, is is
putting some you know, putting some kind of content online
that gets you know, ten thousand engaged views people saying,
oh my god, this is awesome. Are you going to
do a larger version? You know, because when people are

(01:05:47):
making decisions about you know, money, which is essentially life
or death in the industry. You know, so many people,
especially in you know, an established Hollywood, everyone's afraid to
stick their neck out. It's like, okay, if everyone else agreed,
then maybe we'll move forward with this.

Speaker 6 (01:06:05):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:06:06):
So one of the things that's getting everyone on the
same page these days is, you know, look if Nickel's
Screenwriting Fellowship liked it great, you know, look at all
the movies that they've awarded and how many got made
and how many were successes you know, in there since
they've been around. But if I go online and there's
just the cold open of the movie and it's got

(01:06:28):
engagement and people are liking it. That where I am
in my career now, if I'm going to continue to
green light stuff and get it made, that's almost more
important than the Screenwriting Fellowship.

Speaker 5 (01:06:39):
Yeah, it's I actually had a friend of mine on here,
Nick Murphy, and he actually started a YouTube channel. It
was called Continued question Mark and they actually, you know,
they do panels now because they've just built that audience
and then they end up now they did They've done
a crowdfunny campaign for another web series. I mean, so
we they've done very well with that, and again you
know they.

Speaker 7 (01:07:00):
And look, dude, to me, that's networking and you got
to do that too, and that's something that you know,
I became. People think I'm like a master networker, and
I think I'm pretty good. But everyone thinks I know everybody.
That's not true. There's plenty of people. I could know
more people and you know, entertainment than I do, but
that's the perception, right. But it took me a while
to learn that if I were to, you know, have

(01:07:23):
gotten good at networking and everything in the beginning of
my career, it would I think it would be a
little a little different. And I didn't want to think
back then that I don't want to have to go
in schmooze. I just want to be an arduced you know,
all that kind of stuff. But you know, this is
the the you know, it's called, you know, the entertainment
industry for a reason. You know, you got to have
you got to have both. You got to know the

(01:07:44):
business side of things, which includes networking and schmoozing because
you know, sometimes I mean, look, Charlie Korn when who
hired me at end of all. That was a fifteen
year relationship and then it culminated in me becoming president
of you know, the North American Digital division of the
biggest TV production company in the world. I think it's
the largest independent production company in the world. And that

(01:08:06):
was you know, Charlie and I had tried to work
together a few times throughout the years. We've met, like
ninety six or seven, and things didn't work out. But
you know, you got to you got to start, you know,
not only building your community online and building up an
audience online and having people say, hey, your work's great
online so that the industry will like, hey, you know,
the average Joe or Josephine likes this person's work, maybe

(01:08:29):
we should you give him a shot. But also, you know,
you got to start building your network as soon as
you can. And if you're an actor, it's just another role.
You're going out to events and meeting people and you're
playing the role of networker, you know, and for filmmakers
the same thing. You can't In many cases, you can
still be the shy you don't like to talk to anyone.

(01:08:51):
You're very introverted, but you're brilliant, you know, artist or filmmaker.
And if you can't get a little more extroverted online,
then you know, these are all just learned, you know,
kind of skills that you can always improve upon. You know,
you know where you're at currently if you're not much
of a networker schmoozer, you know, read hollywooden friends and

(01:09:13):
influence people, and then just go out to one of
that and just try some of the techniques and all
of a sudden you're like, hey, I'm pretty good at this,
you know, but it's those so important because talent. You know,
sometimes talent rises to the top and and sometimes you know,
the best talent never never rise. And these are the
reasons why. So you know, if you don't do your

(01:09:37):
homework and find out what it takes, then you shouldn't
complain about not getting a shot. About its life's unfair
about you know, I'm so talented, I'm more talented than
this person. But you know, they're they're getting jobs that
i'm not, or they're getting cast and I'm not, or
they're getting funded and I'm not. Okay, well, then you
know find out why.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 7 (01:10:08):
And I guarantee. Why is that they're doing some other
things in some other areas that you are either judging
harshly rashly and saying no, I don't want to have
to do that. But then you know, it's the same
in every industry. It's just a little more as a
little more pizaz in Hollywood.

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
Yeah, you know, you're absolutely right, Will, And you have
to go out there and network.

Speaker 5 (01:10:29):
And you know, I know we've been talking for about
an hour and I know you know obviously I could
talk to you all day. Will I just want to say,
you know, I wanted to ask too. I want to
get to talk about the Church of Babs. You know,
you currently have a GoFundMe and by the way, everyone listening,
I'm going to put this in the show notes for
his GoFundMe at you know, at Dave Bullis dot com
where the show notes usually are.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
So, Will I just want to ask, you know, just
about Church of Babs.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
You know again, I sold the article about it in
the Philadelphia dot com Inquire online site.

Speaker 6 (01:10:56):
Yeah, put that link too, that was pretty good. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Well, I I'm going to make sure to put that
in there as well.

Speaker 5 (01:11:01):
So I just want to you know, as we talk
about Church of Babs, you know, is there anything you know,
I know we talked about earlier, discussed it briefly, but
is there anything else you wanted to mention about the
Church of Babs or Joe?

Speaker 7 (01:11:13):
Well, look, the the go fund me campaign is GoFundMe,
dot com slash st d a d s st Babs
and that's you know, so we've raised almost twenty thousand
dollars in very short time, and we need more. The
reason being that I want to you know, it's a
one hundred eight year old church. I want to restore it,
you know, and then also innovate a little bit. But

(01:11:35):
we also want to start a number of programs for
the community and the online community. And you know, when
I acquired this two acre property in Ka County, New Jersey,
which is incredible. I'm surrounded by natural wildlife preserves of
the Autubon Bird Watching Society, the New Jersey Motorsports Park,
private beaches, public beaches. It's just an amazing, amazing area

(01:11:56):
of South New Jersey that you know, people think of Jersey,
they think of Panos, but especially South Jersey. I think
give gives Jersey its name on license plates. The garden state.
But because it's an old historical property like this, like
I had to but I acquired it, I had to
pay all cash and it wasn't you know, I'm not
a multimillionaire because you can't get a more or at

(01:12:20):
least I couldn't get a mortgage for a property like this.
It's commercially zoned, but there's no historical rental income because
it was a church and it's not a private it's
not a residential place, so no residential private mortgage lenders
were went, so I had to put all cash into it.
So we're reopening grand reopening at Saint Babs in May
on Mother's Day twenty seventeen, coming up a few months

(01:12:43):
and for a whole week, we have a number of
festivities happening and certain celebrity friends of mine will be
making appearances. We'll be launching a bunch of initiatives, will
be lots of great art and music, you know, showing.
So the money from the go fund campaign is going
to both the restoration and launching these programs. And I

(01:13:03):
think you know it's it's not just one good cause,
it's many good causes. And uh, you know this is
we're just getting started. So I think, you know, after
the opening and within the next year or two, just
like I tried to do with Maker Studios and end
them all and stream up, I'm going to turn this
into into something that people will be proud of and

(01:13:24):
and really think well off.

Speaker 5 (01:13:26):
And uh, you know everyone, I'm going to link to
again in that article in the show notes and uh,
you know, well, I know you're going to do an
amazing job with this. And again when I read that,
when I read the article, I said, this is this
is amazing, and this is.

Speaker 7 (01:13:40):
Next time we talk.

Speaker 6 (01:13:41):
What thank you?

Speaker 7 (01:13:42):
Thank you? Next time we talk? Why don't you come
to like I and I'm also building a studio in
the church, and and you know there's lots going on here.
The whole place is getting wired. Why don't you come
to your podcast down here? Maybe you know it's not
during the grand reopening week, which I think will be
fun and I think they'll be im pressed to come
out of that. But you know, that's the other thing,

(01:14:03):
whether it's artists, people in need, people in recovery. I
want this to be, you know, not their second home
unless they wanted to make it their second home. But
you know, I'm opening the doors for people to create, uh,
to commune and so forth, so you.

Speaker 6 (01:14:18):
Know, feel free to do a podcast down here.

Speaker 5 (01:14:20):
Then oh, thank you, Well I appreciate that. And I'm
definitely gonna go and and go come down. I want
to be there for the grand opening. U you know,
we can meet in person and uh, you know, yeah,
why don't.

Speaker 6 (01:14:29):
We do why don't we do during the opening in
front of people? Why don't we do like a.

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
Live podcast or something you know that sounds amazing?

Speaker 7 (01:14:35):
Let's do it's and then I'll be I'll be a
guest if you want me as your guest, but maybe
we'll book one or two other people too, and I'll
give you the list of you know, the talent and
the people coming, and you can look at that and say, oh,
they'd be great on the podcast, and maybe we'll do
it that way.

Speaker 5 (01:14:51):
Okay, that sounds amazing, will uh yeah, and uh and
I think that'll be a great, great, you know, tool
for uh, you know, everybody. And uh, because that's very interesting.
I haven't done something like that yet, and I've been
meaning to and I will before, you know, Just in closing,
I wanted to ask, is there anything else that you
wanted to say just in closing that we can get
a chance to discuss.

Speaker 7 (01:15:16):
Oh. I heard from a very very good source that
Lloyd Kaufman of Trauma is developing another movie based on
a Shakespeare play. And I was told that not too
long ago when Romeo and Juliet played at the Museum

(01:15:39):
of Modern Art in New York a few months ago.
So I if I do another Trauma movie again, that
sounds like that'd be the one.

Speaker 5 (01:15:50):
Yeah, that that you know again be able to reunite
with Lloyd and you know again, I think that would
be amazing because Lloyd is always know now he's just
making some some really great movies too. Because now with
what was it, Toxic Avenger four came out, I thought
that was very well done, and I actually bumped into
it a few years ago. By the way, I'll tell

(01:16:11):
you that story in person when I see you. But yeah, no,
but I think that'd be great though, because it's it's
you know, I always you know great, it's great independent film.
And so again, will I want to say thank you
for coming on where you will find you online.

Speaker 7 (01:16:24):
By the way, I'm Will keenan w I L L
K E E N A n on Twitter, same thing
on Instagram, on Facebook, and then if you just search
my name it comes up. I have a blue check
next to my name on Facebook. What else LinkedIn? Look
for Will Keenan And now there's a Saint Babs the

(01:16:47):
Foundation I just started Facebook and Instadent. Please follow those
as well.

Speaker 4 (01:16:52):
Will Keenan. I want to say thank you so much
for coming on.

Speaker 6 (01:16:56):
Dave Bullas, thanks for asking me. This was great, this
was fun. It's do it again.

Speaker 4 (01:17:01):
It sounds great, my friend. I will talk to you
very soon.

Speaker 7 (01:17:05):
All right, take care, man, take care, will I.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
Everybody, I want to thank Dave so much for doing
such a great job on this episode. If you want
to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie film Muscle
dot com Forward slash eight fifty nine, and if you
have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:17:23):
Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep that hustle going,
keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll
talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
Indie film hustle dot com. That's I N D I
E f I L M h U s t l
E dot com.

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