What if the reason your screenplay isn't getting attention has nothing to do with your writing ability?
In this eye-opening conversation, Lane Shefter Bishop—known throughout Hollywood as "The Book Whisperer"—breaks down the single most important tool every writer needs: the logline. Having built a career discovering books before publication and developing them into film and television projects, Lane reveals why most writers struggle to sell their work, how executives evaluate ideas in seconds, and why being unable to explain your story in one compelling sentence is often the first sign something is fundamentally wrong with the project itself.
Drawing from years of experience working with major studios, publishers, producers, and bestselling authors, Lane shares practical insights on storytelling, character goals, stakes, theme, structure, and pitching. From identifying weak protagonists to diagnosing story problems before a screenplay is even written, this conversation is packed with actionable advice for screenwriters, novelists, filmmakers, and content creators who want to create stories that not only work creatively but also stand a real chance of selling in today's competitive marketplace.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/indie-film-hustle-a-filmmaking-podcast--2664729/support.
In this eye-opening conversation, Lane Shefter Bishop—known throughout Hollywood as "The Book Whisperer"—breaks down the single most important tool every writer needs: the logline. Having built a career discovering books before publication and developing them into film and television projects, Lane reveals why most writers struggle to sell their work, how executives evaluate ideas in seconds, and why being unable to explain your story in one compelling sentence is often the first sign something is fundamentally wrong with the project itself.
Drawing from years of experience working with major studios, publishers, producers, and bestselling authors, Lane shares practical insights on storytelling, character goals, stakes, theme, structure, and pitching. From identifying weak protagonists to diagnosing story problems before a screenplay is even written, this conversation is packed with actionable advice for screenwriters, novelists, filmmakers, and content creators who want to create stories that not only work creatively but also stand a real chance of selling in today's competitive marketplace.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/indie-film-hustle-a-filmmaking-podcast--2664729/support.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
sixty Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in a theater,
Roman Polanski.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.
I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn
your independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today
than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with
their films from predatory film distributors ripping them off to
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(00:57):
stacked against the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of
making money with your film is broken, and there needs
to be a change. The future of independent filmmaking is
the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the film entrepreneur. In Rise of
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(01:20):
studies examining successes and failures. This book shows you the
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in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If you want
(01:42):
to order it, just head over to www dot filmbizbook
dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's episode
with guest host Dave Bullis.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
On this episode, we have the person they call Hollywood's
book Whisperer. Her new book, Sell Your Story and a
Single Sentence is out now which is completely about log lines,
which is something I need to help with as well.
With guests Lane Bishop, Hey, Lane, thank you very much
for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Dave.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Oh, I'm excited to have you here. Lane. You know
I was looking at your bio and you just created
the book, you know, sell your story and a single sentence,
CNN calls you the book whisper. You have all these
amazing products coming on. Just great to have you come
on the you know, the podcast. So, you know, Lane,
just to get started, I wanted to ask, you know,
how did you get started in the film business?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
You know, I have the most eclectic background of probably
anyone in this industry. I was really you know, I
didn't know which area I wanted to be in initially,
so I I was a temp at different studios and
I ended up tempting for, like, you know, some of
the biggest names you could imagine. And at the time
I didn't even realize that it was such a big deal.
(02:54):
You know, I was working for the head of you know,
Walt Disney Pictures. But it was really it was a
great expecause I learned sort of literally every piece of
how movies got made, all the drafts and all the notes,
and it was just a it was a great learning.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Experience for me.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
And during that time I became a director and I
directed for fifteen years on and off, and whenever it
was off, I was temping again, and I ended up
working at DreamWorks. I was like one of the first
six people at DreamWorks. I was doing like contracts for animators.
I mean, you name it, I've done it. And then,
you know, I just I got to a point where
I had spent you know, fifteen years as a director,
(03:32):
and I have an Emmy and I and I really
felt like I got tired of waiting for the phone
to ring.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
So I started to get into producing.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
And I met a guy who you know, had a
ton of money and just wanted to be in the industry.
And he was like, you can do all the creative
and I'll write the check. And you know, how do
you say no to that? So, you know, in two
thousand and six, I started producing. And you know, I
was a lit major before I went to USC Film School.
My undergraduate degrees in literature and then my in film,
(04:00):
and so I started to sort of blend the two
when I was working for him, and in those two
years two thousand and six two thousand and eight that
I was the EVP of TV and movies for him,
I literally ended up setting nothing, setting up at nothing
but books.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I mean, it was just weird.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Like I taught Santra Brown into coming back into the industry.
She's amazing, by the way, And so we became the
first company to do a feature film with Sandra Brown,
and I set up three TV movies with ABC.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Family and all this cool stuff was going on. They
were all books.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
I made a deal with Harlequin. We became sort of
their development arm at the time. And you know, people
thought Harlequin was like Bodish ripper Fabio, and in fact,
they have eleven imprints and only one of them is
that Just so I set up a lot of projects
and I just didn't say it was Harlequin because the
material was really great.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
And then end of two thousand and eight, the guy
worked for was sort of.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
Like, well, I don't I don't feel like producing.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I think I want to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
I was like, oh no, well, I was trying to
fare what to do? You know, I was producing, I
was directing, you know, what do I want to do?
And I give all kudos to my husband who said,
you know, you're setting up a lot of stuff. Why
don't you just keep doing book to screen? And I
was like, wow, it's like the worst time at two
thousand and eight, you know, height of the recession, you know,
(05:18):
bad time to start a company. But I thought, okay,
I'll do it for a year, and I started vast
entertainment book to screen only, and I knew a lot
of people in New York publishers, authors, so I thought.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'll see what happens.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
And in that year it was like crazy, I think,
I set up like twelve book projects and I thought, uh.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Okay, well that's working. So that became sort of my
bread and butter.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
And you know, it's morphed a little as time's gone on,
because first of all, nobody wanted to hear the word
book in two thousand and eight because three hundred pages,
you know, that was like so intimidating. So I slowly
had to come up with ways of pitching this material
without having them have to read a three hundred page book.
That's sort of where the genesis of sell your story
in a single sentence came from. And I also, you know,
(06:05):
had to figure out how to beat all the book scouts.
So I ended up spending a lot of time in
New York I still do, and and really focusing on
books before they became books. So I would say about
ninety percent of what I set up is based on
book proposals and partials like fifty to one hundred pages.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
I just don't wait for the.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Whole book, because you know what, everything's going to change
during the adaptation process anyway, as it did for the Duff,
which was the very first thing I set up with McGee.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
So you know, it's it's just.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
A it's such a it's a process of going from
something that's on the page is something on the screen,
and no matter what, it's going to change. So so
I just don't wait for the book anymore.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
And that's sort of how Vast has grown, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So I wanted to ask Leane, you know, how do
you find the books that you want to that you
want to sort of turn into movies or maybe even
just you know, set up. How do you find the
books that you know? Do you you have somebody that
that sort of gives you recommendations or are you always
at like got Borns and Nobles or something looking through
the best seller section?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
You know, Because my company focuses on like pre publication material,
I get everything from author's agents in New York.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I work with about sixty or sixty five.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Now writer's agents out of New York, and I go
to New York about five times a year and I
sit with them.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
I think face to face is really important.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
You know a lot of people they wait till the
announcement comes out on publisher's marketplace, and they have their
intern call and say, like, send us the galleys when
it's ready, And I just don't think that's the.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Way to do it.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
I think the way to do it is to go
out there and sit with them face to face and say,
you know, what do you have coming down the pipe
that you're excited about that you haven't even gone out
with yet.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
You know, That's where I get most of my material.
And I have.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Literally I set up a project with Peter Churnan on
a hundred pages. I set up a project with Scott
Stuber on eleven page book proposal. I just have a
project with Joel Silver that literally came from an agent
calling me saying, Hey, my author just sent me this
idea of some mean she wants to write.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
It's only like twenty pages. Let me send it to you.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
And I read it and I called her and said,
have her write this right now, because I can set
this up on these twenty pages which I did with Joel.
So it's it's just one of these things where you
never know what when you're going to hear it.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I read everything myself.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
I get about nine hundred books a year, so I
do a lot of reading, and a lot of them
are unfinished, which is how I like it. I like
things really early because if the concept is good, if
I can sell it in a sentence, you know, I
can sell it.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
And you know that's something I wanted to get into too,
because you just wrote the book. You know, sell your
story in a single sentence. And I think it's so important, Lane,
because you know, there's so many times that I've had
screenwriters and these just sort of, you know, they say, oh,
I can't really sum it up in a sentence. You know,
my story's so complex, you know, and there's so many
things going on, and you know, I'm sure when you know. Obviously,
when you're hearing this too, you're probably thinking, well, you
(08:47):
don't know what your story's about then, right, right. So
imagine pitching to a manager or an agent or a
studio and just saying, oh, well, I can't really say
what it's about, you know, So if you have to
read you'll have to read this to actually understand. And
so you know what was sort of the impetus for
you to create, you know, to write the book, you know,
sell your story in a single sentence.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I had been talking about this at writers' conferences around
the country, around the world.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I was at the London Book Fair.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
I have been talking about how to create this logline,
this selling sentence for years, probably six years now. And
at the end of each one of these little seminars
I always have obviously authors and screenwriters coming up and saying,
do you have a book?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Do you have a book?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The answer is no.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
And then at my last seminar and Boston a year
ago or so, a friend of mine who's one of
the agents I work with, Catherine Sands, came up to
me in front of this line of people and said.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Yes, she does have a book. Like, what are you doing?
Speaker 5 (09:47):
And she said to me, laying, all these people are
asking you for a book. You have to write this.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
And I said, I don't have time to write this,
and she browbeat me and said, yes you do. And
I give her full credit because she also got it
to one of the you know, biggest global publishers in.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
The world, Norton, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
And really it was it wasn't as hard to write
as I thought because I had spoken on it for
so long. I really developed this system for how to
create that sentence. How do you get a three hundred
page book down into something you can sell. So it
was all a matter of just getting it on paper,
you know, because I've been speaking about it forever, and
you know, to me, the big thing is I always
(10:36):
tell writers who like but everything's important and it's my baby,
and I said, look, you know, if you can't get
someone to read it, it doesn't do you any good
at all. So the goal is to figure out what's
most unique about your work, what is the most unique
thing about it, because that's what's going to sell it.
That's what a log line is. It's one sentence highlighting
(10:57):
what's most unique about your work. Because everyone wants something
new and different and flavor of the month and shiny
new toy. You know, nobody wants something that they feel
like they've heard before. So I'll give you my favorite example.
I was brought a book really long I think it
was almost foreigner pages this woman and it's her life story.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
It's a real story.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
And she was into drugs and her boyfriend was into
drugs and you know, they went to prison and she
was a drug mule and all this stuff. And I
said to her, like, I feel like I've seen this.
I feel like, you know, it's like the movie Traffic,
Like there's you know, what's different, Give me specifics. I'm
always saying that, be more specific, because you know what
makes it unique is the specifics. And after you know,
hours and days of you know, slogging through this material
(11:38):
and talking to her, and you know, ultimately I came
up with a log line which will show you how
powerful these things are. The log line is it's the
story of a woman who at only nineteen became a
ran the biggest drug cartel in US history. So you
have that as you're selling sentence, a pretty good chance
I can set that up.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, you know, and when you just mentioned in that
log line too, you know, that's even seems like something
that you know, actors will be going after because you know,
and talking with you know, all the screenwriters and producers
on this podcast and even off the podcast, you know.
Usually that that's the two big things that producers ask about,
right is what's it about? And who's storing in it?
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yep, yep. And believe me, it applies to everything.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
You can come up with a log line as a writer,
as an actor, if you're a businessman selling a new business,
I mean, anything you're selling can be crafted into a
log line and should be because look, the minute is
a writer. For example, the minute you say I'm a writer,
what's the first question they're going to say, well, what
are you working on?
Speaker 4 (12:37):
What are you writing? It's the first question. You better
have a great answer.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
This is also something to I've found lame is you know,
people do want to inject their own lives into their screenplays,
you know, and usually you know, when they say things
like that, like hey, this really happened to me in
real life. Usually, you know, I always say like, well,
you know, I don't know if it would fit in
this screenplay. Like, for instance, I hade a friend of
mine and he everything always happened in his life. He
would turn into like the screenplay, and finally he wrote one,
(13:03):
and it was like a hodgepodge of everything that's like
happened to him in the past like three years, and
I said, do you really feel like this is enough
to carry a screenplay? Just sort of having all these
scenes and stuff. And you know, one of the best
pieces of writing advice I've ever been given was through
your log line, you can extract everything from your story. So,
(13:24):
you know, when you do have something like that, like
you get an idea like hey, you know a guy
meets a girl and the girl is a drug mule
something like that, you know you can, you know, you
have to take that concept turning into a log line,
evolve that log line, and then you can extract your
story from said log line.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
The log line actually is absolutely true can tell you
what's missing from your screenplay. You know, I've I've spent
so much time talking about the three main tents of
a log line, which or who's your protagonist, what do
they want?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And what's at stake? And so many times the what's
at stake is missing?
Speaker 5 (13:55):
You know, they'll say, like, oh, it's about a queen
who has to get back the stolen gold for her country,
Well why I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
What happens if she doesn't?
Speaker 5 (14:06):
You know, So the logline actually can be really helpful
in telling you what's missing from your screenplay? And also
you know, in what your example was with your friend
is like that's what I call an event to event
to event screenplay.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
It's like all this.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Stuff happens and there's no reason why nobody cares. So,
you know, without that motivating force the what do I want,
you're really you really have problems. So that's another reason
why loglines are so beneficial, because they can really help
focus you on what's not in your screenplay and should be.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And also what I found too is that a lot
of screenplays that I read who are written by sort
of you know, amateurs to like semi professionals, there's a
lot of times there's no goal, like do you know
what I mean? Like, there's nothing that is pushing this narrative.
And then that's when I go back and I'm thinking, well,
what would the logline be of this screenplay? And let
me let's just give you a quick example. One of
them was about a guy who his girlfriend dumps them.
(15:00):
His fiance dumps him, and he sort of spends the
rest of the screenplay just sort of wandering, I mean,
and I kept thinking to myself, you know what, you know,
there was no goal there wasn't even you know, you
know what lane I would have settled for, even the
character even saying like, see that thing, that's what I need,
like he just could come out and set it, because
I thought, maybe, you know, maybe there's something I'm missing
(15:20):
in a subtext here, maybe there's something I'm missing. And
I got to the end and there was nothing. There
was no goal, and I said, you know, and I
said to the person, you know, I think you need
to go back and go through, you know, drafts, because
I said, this is a draft one, obviously, and he
looks at me, he goes, Dave, he goes, this isn't
a draft one, this is draft ten. I said, draft ten.
(15:41):
And then all came back laying into the log line
and I said, there's no goal. There's nothing driving this narrative.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Yeah, the what do I want is completely missing.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
And because of that, you know, everything is, you know,
just happening, and for no purpose. That character has to
have a want, that's what motivates them through this story.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, very true. That you know often and now you know,
as I read more screenplays on the professional side, I
also when I'm going through I always pick out two
what the theme is because I mean, the really good
writers you see that theme and you see, like, you know,
all that different stuff come up. Sometimes it's very obvious.
Sometimes it's in the subtext. And you know, that's something
that I've been looking for now as I read more
(16:20):
professional screenplays.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Yeah, I think, you know, I think once you get
the basics down, then you start expanding into the cool
stuff like the theme and the voice and you know,
all that kind of cool stuff. And the problem I
think is a lot of people jump ahead to that
without having the basics down first.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, because you know, as you know, it doesn't really
you know, matter if we're talking about a novel or
screenplay or what have you, because that structure is so important. Yes,
you know, because I mean, you know what I mean
like that just you know, finding the way you know what.
You know, we were just talking about, you know, event screenwriting,
but you know what is really driving this narrative? What
is taking us from A to B to C to
D T E so that way we can follow this
(17:00):
character as they make these decisions for better or for
worse for themselves.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
That's right, that's right, that's what's driving that story. It's
sort of like when people the first question I always
ask is who's the protagonist? And they laugh, right, But
but you'd be amazed how many people have like the
antagonist as their protagon.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
I mean, crazy stuff.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
And I say to them, you know, they'll say, like, oh,
I have an ensemble piece for example.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
I'll say, but.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Even in an ensemble, there's usually one person whose decisions
are driving that story forward, who has the most to lose,
the most at stake.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
That is your protagonist.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
And you'd be amazed at how many people write not
knowing their protagonist is.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I completely agree, because you know, and I mean I
can only imagine you know, all the you know, all
the projects that you see. I mean, I'm just you know,
I read screenplays, you know, from all different sources, and
I mean some of them, you know, I see the
log line and it's just you know, and and I
know someone not even read the screenplay, and it's just,
you know, they they don't have the right main character,
is what I'm trying to say, you know what I mean,
Like the antagonist is much more thought out. The antagonist
(17:59):
is the one controlling the story. Yeah, uh, you know,
and you know, in reality, it's almost like the protagonist
is like an afterthought like all right, you know, then
here's some guy he could fight. You know, it's like
you know, you know what I mean, Like he's just
sort of shoehorned in there to the story, so so
something can happen exactly.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
And I think that again, like the log line, by
creating that log line, who's the protagonist, what do they want?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
What is at stake?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Then you find out ahead of time what your problem is.
If you can't identify your protagonist, that's a big problem.
And it's good because it helps you refocus once to
discover who your protagonist is, so that you really can
make your story, you know, sing And I think that's
one of the one of the things I love most
about the log line is a side being able to
(18:42):
sell your material. It really helps you focus on, you know,
maybe some problems inherent in what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
So Leanne, I don't know if you could think of
this all, you know, just off the top of your head,
but you know, what are some of your favorite log
lines that that you have that you've ever read or
come across. And I sort of just jumped out at
you and you said that that's it. That's the project.
I want to go after uh.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Sadly, I don't get sent log lines, which is why
I started teaching this. I really want someone else to
do the work and then bring it to me. Normally
I'm the one who has to create that.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I have one that I use.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
As an example, a lot that I pitched to Johnny
Depp's company and a while back, which I just love
because it sort of gives when people are like, what's.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
A log line? I always use this. It's a woman's.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Idyllic homecoming is shattered when she finds herself the target
of a coven determined to make her their thirteenth member.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I love that log line.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
It just it's so powerful, you know, and any good
line log line is powerful. There's about, you know, nine
million examples in the Book of Great log Lines, and
I tried to include a log line for every sort
of element I'm trying to teach. But I have also
included in the book a whole bunch of workbooks you
can practice, because.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
It's really you know, log lines are all about writing
and rewriting.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
You know, just as much as you would rewrite your
script or your manuscript. For a book, the logline gets rewritten.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
You know.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
I gave an example on the book of like a
ten step process, but really that was one hundred step process.
I just took ten out for the book. You know,
you're always rewriting, rewriting, rewriting because you want to streamline
it and use more, you know, dynamic vocabulary, and you know,
you do everything you can and make it sell.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
That's a thing.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Once you have the perfect sentence like that, you are
good to go.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
One thing that I've become more conscious of is when
I'm watching TV and I hit the TV guide button
on my remote, and you know, it comes up a
description of the movie. And then I started to realize,
you know, these are log lines, you know, because these
are these are what's you know, telling you what the
movie's about. And I came onto one on the Sci
Fi channel and it was a movie called Ogre, and
(20:56):
I remember just reading the synopsis this this the line,
and I said, wow, that gave him the whole movie.
And I can remember it too. It was something like
a girl and a guy stumble upon a remote village
ruled by an ogre just in time for the yearly
human sacrifice or is something along those lines. I may
(21:16):
I may have just completely butchered that, but it was
something along those lines and I and I said, wow,
you know that that's the log line right there.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting to me, like considering
how many bad log lines I get. Once in a while,
you know, I get sent one and I think, wow, actually,
that's that's pretty damn good.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
You know. It's it's it's rare.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
It's a rare occurrence, unfortunately, but you know, I it's
I was just sent one. I have a website called
sell It in a Sentence dot com where people can
go and get you know, log line help. And one
woman sent me a log line which was actually quite good.
It needed one little tweak, but you know, I read
it and I.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Thought, huh, you know, that's not half bad.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You know.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
And it's terrible to say this, but I'm always surprised
by that because I get so many, so many log
lines that are just you know, like you'll get the
people who try to cram their plot into a one
sentence thing, so you have like you know, commas everywhere
and a whole bunch of parentheses and like dot dot
dots and like it's just crazy shit, you know that
they're trying to do to make sure that you that
they can get one sentence out of like everything they
(22:16):
feels important on the planet. I always say that to
writers when they try to do that. I say, like,
you're not trying to get your book in a one sentence,
good luck doing that. Which you're really trying to do
is find what's most unique about your work and put
that into one sentence.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
You know. And you know, Lane, what you just said there,
I really just extracted something very very important from So
anyone listening that didn't pick up on what Lane just said,
she could send a lot of bad log lines. So
what I think is, if you actually have a good
log line, it seems like you could stand out pretty easily.
Is that Is that a good assumption line?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
I spend a lot of time revamping really bad log lines. Yeah,
because I think there's a lot of misinformation on how
to create a log line out there that I saw
when I was starting to do my book that really
don't help you. Like, for example, they tell you to
do like the you know, this movie meets that movie,
you know, And I look at that and I think,
how does.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
That sell your particular story.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
I will never understand that that's not a logline that
doesn't sell your work, that sells me two movies I
may have seen, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So I had a friend who was a he was
a screenwriter, and he actually got a job as a
script reader, you know, one of the quote unquote gatekeepers
at a studio, and you know, they would give him
tons of screenplays to read. And he said, you know,
basically he would go through all these screenplays and I
mean he said, it was so hard to get through
a lot of these because said they you know, it
(23:37):
was spelling mistakes, it was grammar mistakes, you know. I
mean he you know, you know, and he would at
the end have to do coverage on it. You know,
he would have to write no past you know, et cetera.
And so he said, whenever he came across a good script,
he wanted to send that person like a you know,
a dozen roses and be like, thank you so much.
He's like, because you know, you know, for every I
don't know, not you know, a thousand screenplays nine hundred
(23:59):
and ninety nine or just passes, and that one is
actually an accept or recommend and he said, it's it's
just so refreshing to and he said, really you can
tell because you know, like you've seen all the log lines,
he said, you can tell who has an idea of
what they're doing versus who has who's just sort of
throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Absolutely absolutely makes it so clear, you know. And sadly,
you know, as I said earlier to you when we
were chatting, you know, you can be the best writer
in the world, but if you can't sell it, it
makes no difference at all. So it's really it's a
shame to me when you have a writer who's got
an amazing piece of work, but they can't come up
with a log line to save their life, you know,
(24:37):
so how are they gonna sell it?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So do you recommend, you know, for writers you know
who who were you know, maybe you're starting a new
book or a new screenplay, do you recommend that they
sort of start with a with a concept or you know,
or even a vague idea of the log line to
sort of build from before they even would start trying
to write the actual book.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, you know.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
I recommend it so often because cause Otherwise you get
people and I mentioned this in the book who you Know,
They've written three hundred pages, but it's an event to
event to event book. Nothing's motivated. And it's really sad
because once they figure out the log them, they're like,
oh crap, now I got to go back and rewrite
the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Because your log line is like your rudder right on
a boat, it's steering you.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
So I always recommend that writers create the log line
first because it keeps you focused as you write on
what's important.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, and that I look that analogy. It's a rudder
of your story, your runner of their ship. I really
like that analogy.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah, keeps you focused. If it's not.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
If what your writing doesn't have anything to do with
your log line, it shouldn't be in your book or
your screenplay.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah. I have oftentimes too, when I read different screenplays,
I see things like, you know, scenes or whatever, or
characters that just sort of provide, you know what I mean,
Like they're just why are they there? You know what
I mean? And I think, you know, when if you
can take that concept, you know, turn that into a
log line, take that log line and start to build
upon that that way, you know, you you'll know it's
(26:02):
you know what belongs and what doesn't. It's sort of
what Patty Chevski used to do, because he used to
do something similar. I think he would. He would boil
it down. He would take his log line and take
a theme and put it on the wall in front
of him and say, if it doesn't match this, it's
not going in the screenplay regardless.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
I think it's it's incredibly valuable to do that log
line first, Otherwise you're just gonna do a lot of
rewriting later unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah. Yeah, that's something too that I've learned when I'm
when I'm writing, if I didn't have the you know,
at least you know, you know something to guide me along.
You know, it's just you You write yourself into a
hole and you go, wait, what the hell where do
I go? Now? You know what scene comes next? You know,
should I now go to see what the antagonist is doing?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Well?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Who's the antagonist? You know.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
It's like it's like if you were you know, like out,
you know, hiking in the wilderness without a map or
without a compass, you know you're gonna get lost.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I was actually just reading a story or two about
somebody who actually went hiking and didn't have a compass
and she was lost for fifty days.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Oh god, oh god, that's horrible.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Yeah she uh. I'm sorry not to get too sidetracked,
but I just thought that story was fascinating because she
she got up early, and and she she was with
a camping group and she decided to go up by
herself without a compass and didn't know how to you know,
didn't know how to read any of the natures, you know,
like you know, the moss on the side of the
trees or the north star and got completely turned around
very quickly and had no idea which way, you know,
(27:28):
to go. But I so so sorry not to get
too sidetracked, but I always, I always find stories about
you know, like Wilder's survival like that fascinating because I
mean and that and that that was very quickly how
that happened to her too. But sorry, but to get
back to, you know, tell about log lines and your story.
What recommendations would you have for writers, you know, who
were setting out now to maybe start writing a book,
(27:52):
or recommendations were trying to you know, even to sell
a book. Or even to pitch to you know, or
even to pitch people like you laying you know what
recommendations you know, do you have for them? What should
they be doing?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Go buy my book?
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Yeah, I mean number one, you know, have that logline
in place, have a great selling be able to say,
you know, it's the story of a woman who at
nineteen ran the biggest drug cartel in US history. You know,
have that sentence ready, because that's how you're going to
grab someone's attention, my attention. A networking execs attention anyone.
(28:26):
You know that even like when they if they're writing
a book, I would say, like put that at the
top of your query letter to all the agents for
you know, because believe me, it'll get the agent interested
in reading. And plus they can use it to sell
it to an editor or a publisher as well. So
it's sort of this this gift that keeps on giving.
You know, that's it's a great way to start, you
know because aside from helping you write, it really does
(28:49):
sell your material, and if you can't sell it, it
does you no good to write it anyway.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, you know that's very true, you know, because you know,
even me, like sometimes I write, you know, and sometimes
I always think myself, well, if it doesn't sell, it
could be a practice script. But then again, you're always
you're always thinking, well, if I write it, I do
want to actually I do want people to actually see
it or buy it or whatever. You know.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
And I think the other thing I usually recommend is
I tell people to, you know, like, for example, I
speak at this great conference called Grub Street mus in
the Marketplace. It's in Boston, and like, these are invaluable
places for writers because you know, you can pay to
have a ten or twenty minute session with these writers agents.
What a great way to get in front of these people,
(29:30):
so you're not just in the slush pile with the
nine billion other people sending stuff in that was not solicited.
You're actually talking to them face to face about your material.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
It's it's a great way to get an agent.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
It's a it's just a great way to learn the
process and practice, you know, talking to these folks and
hearing what they like and don't like.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I mean, it's just so invaluable.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
I always recommend go to writers' conferences with that, you know,
that that provide that option.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
To the show, because you know, it's the same thing
I do, going to New York and sitting in front
of the author's agents, you know, in person, it's like
there's nothing like a face to face.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
So Lene, you know, if there was, you know, writers
listening to this who haven't never been to a writer's conference,
you know, is there like a top three writers conferences
across America? Because most of my listeners are in America,
so that's why I said in America. But is there any three,
you know, like top commerces or even just one or
two that you would recommend to anyone listening.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
I mean, grub Street News in the marketplace is one
of the best. Honestly, It's why I do it every year.
I also do a thing called the Next best Seller
out of New York, which is more specialized. They only
allow I think ten people in. And then of course
there's like Thriller Fest. It depends what you're writing. There
are a ton of writers conferences specifically for whatever genre
(30:57):
you're doing, but grub Street is is the one that
I always recommend because first of all, it's incredibly well
run and also just because it's just a it's an
amazing opportunity to literally sit across from a writer's agent
and talk to them about your work.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
How great is that? You know?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, that is very true.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I had a friend of mine go to a FI,
the American Film Institute, and they had that that conference,
American Film Market, and I and he went to there
and he they he was looking around and they said
a lot of a lot of you know, distributors were like,
we want no zombie projects and no found footage projects
because the market is saturated. But you know, it's good
that he went there and met them face to face
(31:38):
because that's the that was the people that were in
charge of buying in the foreign you know, the foreign areas,
the foreign markets and everything. And they they told him,
they said, were we every other pitch we hear is
a zombie film or a found footage film or the
Ultimate Lane which is a zombie found footage film.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
The beauty of that is that he got the knowledge
that that tells you what they they don't want.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
That's you know, that's invaluable knowledge.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah, it really is. I mean, and you can see,
you know firsthand what's what's being sold and what's you know,
not being sold. And you know, just what you were
talking about with those writer conferences. You know that that
is invaluable information. Being able to go there and meet
with these people face to face.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Oh yeah, they're honest to god, I think people are
more apt to look at material from someone that they've
met or know than you know, some slush pile, you know,
faceless submission.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Yeah. And you know, I had shown Coin on on
the podcast, and he's actually an editor, and you know
that that's one of the things he said, you know,
he sold because he was twenty years he was working
in as a story editor, and he said he would
just you know, the the slush pile you know what
I mean, that pile of scripts that they just went,
you know this, there's nothing we could do. He said,
it would just get so much every day that he
ended up writing a book. So it reminded me similar
(32:51):
to to you your story, because you know, you eventually
really you know, wrote a book because everyone was saying,
you know, you should write a book. You've seen all
this stuff and it's just you know, it's just pretty interesting.
The parallel.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Yes, yeah, it's you know It's one of those things
where he I think, you never think you're going to
do it, and then one day you're like, oh crap,
I really got to write.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
This down, you know, Lane. So we've been talking for
you know, about thirty five minutes. I know you have,
you know, a million more books to read. You get
a more log lines. So I just wanted to ask,
you know, in closing, is there anything that you we
didn't get a chance to talk about, or anything maybe
that you wanted to say that we get it. We
(33:29):
didn't get a chance to to sort of put a
period at the end of this conversation.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I mean, I think, I know we brushed on it lightly,
but I just I always like to reiterate to writers
to think about what's at stake with their characters, because
number one, that's the main thing that's always missing from
most log lines, but also because for example, I had
a woman send me one about her character had a
(33:54):
brain tumor that was like allowing him to play golf
really well, and her log line had to do with
him wanting to to play in the Masters, And I
said to her, you know, it's it's such a The
problem is if he doesn't play in the Masters, So
what he's not playing golf? Oh, well, you know what
I mean, The stakes aren't high enough. And it sort
(34:15):
of changed everything for her because she had been writing
based on that premise it's all about him wanting to
play in the Masters, and I said, you know, the
stakes are so so, so, so important, And ultimately, the
log line on I can't remember the exact one was
something to the effect of, you know, if he kept
that brain tumor, or you know, he could either have
the surgery right, which would save his life, but he
(34:38):
can't play golf anymore, or keep that brain tumor play
the Masters but die from it.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
Now it's life or death stakes. Now it matters. Now
I care. Now that story is so much more powerful.
So really, I spent a lot of time reminding writers
that those stakes are so valuable and important that they
have to be high enough for us to care hair
otherwise we're not going to want to read their work.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
You know that. That's actually very good because when you
when you were describing that, I actually was going to say, well,
maybe he wanted to win the Masters for his parents,
or you know what I mean, like something like that.
But you're you're your idea was much better than mind.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Well, if you think about it, if he doesn't play
in the Masters, what does it matter? You know, it's like, oh, well,
he didn't get to do a golf game, and I'm
sure the golfers out there are like, oh.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Come on.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Alan Watt, who was on the podcast, he once said
to me, you know, problems get solved, stories get resolved.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Oh I love that. That's a great quote.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, Alan, Is is phenomenal. And that's one of the
things you know that I sort of have been noticing
more of too, is you know, what is a story
problem and how do we resolve that? Because you know
it's sort of like a character has that dilemma. Well,
that dilemma you know, stems. You know, you have two
bad options, you know, and you know you have to
pick one, which is the dilemma of himself because of
(35:56):
the problem. And you know, he sort of says, you know,
you have to how does this get resolved? So when
he know he was crafting his stories, you know, he
was saying, you know, you can't really and he uses
a quote from Einstein, you can't solve the same You
can't solve a problem with the same perception that caused
the problem. She had to have a shift in perception,
(36:17):
so uh, and that's how stories get resolved. But it
just reminded me because that was, uh, yeah, I think
you know your your idea of stakes and why he's
doing it. That was actually very good. I like that,
you know, does he stay and you know, does he
stay in the master's but the brain twmer kills him?
Or does he not play? You know what I mean?
I really like that.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Now you care? Right now? It's like life or death?
Is you know how important is that game? You know?
Speaker 5 (36:38):
To him it's obviously, you know, depending on his choice,
it's very important.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
So uh and then we care obviously. But I love
that quote.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
And you know, it's funny. I have a I always
talk about this. I went to a writer's conference and
Anne Perry was speaking. I've just set up her books
with the Lauren Schuler Donner and she's so prolific, and
she has this quote that I also memorize because I
was like, it's so good. A lot of authors will say,
or screenwriters will say, should I write about what I know?
(37:07):
I keep being told write about what you know? And
she said, write about what you care. About nobody cares
what you know. And I loved that. I thought that
was so great. It's like it's always my last little
comment to writers, write about what you care about.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Yeah, you know that is phenomenal. That is absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
A million books in prints, So you have to quote
her anyway.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
You can't argue with sales. Go there, you go, Lane?
Where can people find you out online?
Speaker 5 (37:37):
I am at vast vast like a vast array of
material Dash entertainment dot com or if they want logline help,
they go to sell it in a sentence dot com.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And are you in any social media sites?
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I am at.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Lane chefter bish on Twitter, and I'm on Facebook too.
I don't know what the thing is, but you can
find me on Facebook too.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I just actually follow you on Twitter by the well.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Perfect perfect.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
I got to get better at that social media thing.
I saw Dave that you have all these books on
social media. I gotta go buy one of those.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I participated in one. I actually I actually don't have
any other books for social media.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
That one that was on your site. Is that the
one that you contributed to.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
The one but with Guy Kalafaki, Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
his hey yeah the Art of social Media. I was
able to contribute on that, and then I also help
with the book by Paul Holligan on how to Podcast.
So uh yeah, those are those are my two small
additions to the to the to Amazon. One day, I
hope to be in your shoes and be able to
you have my own book. Uh so uh, I mean,
(38:38):
you know, like your book is. I'm actually going to
pick up a copy very soon of your book. I
actually don't know why I didn't pick up a copy yet.
But when I do pick up a copy, I'm going
to make sure to email you with a bunch of questions. No,
I'm just kidding, but uh but I will link to
every all of your all of your website, your all
your social media channels in the show notes, Lane, I
want to say thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Well, thanks for having me Dave. I I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Oh it was a bleast having you on. And if
you ever want to come back on, please let me know.
The door is always open.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Awesome. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Oh my pleasure, take care Landy me too, Bye bank you.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie film Muscle
dot com, Forward slash eight sixty and if you have
it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.
Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
(39:30):
so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there,
and I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
indiefilm Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
F I L M h U S T l E
dot com.
You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
sixty Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in a theater,
Roman Polanski.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
Film Hustle Podcast, where we showed you how to survive
and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
the film biz.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.
I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn
your independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today
than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with
their films from predatory film distributors ripping them off to
huckster film aggregators who prey upon them. The odds are
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stacked against the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of
making money with your film is broken, and there needs
to be a change. The future of independent filmmaking is
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to order it, just head over to www dot filmbizbook
dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's episode
with guest host Dave Bullis.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
On this episode, we have the person they call Hollywood's
book Whisperer. Her new book, Sell Your Story and a
Single Sentence is out now which is completely about log lines,
which is something I need to help with as well.
With guests Lane Bishop, Hey, Lane, thank you very much
for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Dave.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Oh, I'm excited to have you here. Lane. You know
I was looking at your bio and you just created
the book, you know, sell your story and a single sentence,
CNN calls you the book whisper. You have all these
amazing products coming on. Just great to have you come
on the you know, the podcast. So, you know, Lane,
just to get started, I wanted to ask, you know,
how did you get started in the film business?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
You know, I have the most eclectic background of probably
anyone in this industry. I was really you know, I
didn't know which area I wanted to be in initially,
so I I was a temp at different studios and
I ended up tempting for, like, you know, some of
the biggest names you could imagine. And at the time
I didn't even realize that it was such a big deal.
(02:54):
You know, I was working for the head of you know,
Walt Disney Pictures. But it was really it was a
great expecause I learned sort of literally every piece of
how movies got made, all the drafts and all the notes,
and it was just a it was a great learning.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Experience for me.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
And during that time I became a director and I
directed for fifteen years on and off, and whenever it
was off, I was temping again, and I ended up
working at DreamWorks. I was like one of the first
six people at DreamWorks. I was doing like contracts for animators.
I mean, you name it, I've done it. And then,
you know, I just I got to a point where
I had spent you know, fifteen years as a director,
(03:32):
and I have an Emmy and I and I really
felt like I got tired of waiting for the phone
to ring.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
So I started to get into producing.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
And I met a guy who you know, had a
ton of money and just wanted to be in the industry.
And he was like, you can do all the creative
and I'll write the check. And you know, how do
you say no to that? So, you know, in two
thousand and six, I started producing. And you know, I
was a lit major before I went to USC Film School.
My undergraduate degrees in literature and then my in film,
(04:00):
and so I started to sort of blend the two
when I was working for him, and in those two
years two thousand and six two thousand and eight that
I was the EVP of TV and movies for him,
I literally ended up setting nothing, setting up at nothing
but books.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
I mean, it was just weird.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Like I taught Santra Brown into coming back into the industry.
She's amazing, by the way, And so we became the
first company to do a feature film with Sandra Brown,
and I set up three TV movies with ABC.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Family and all this cool stuff was going on. They
were all books.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
I made a deal with Harlequin. We became sort of
their development arm at the time. And you know, people
thought Harlequin was like Bodish ripper Fabio, and in fact,
they have eleven imprints and only one of them is
that Just so I set up a lot of projects
and I just didn't say it was Harlequin because the
material was really great.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
And then end of two thousand and eight, the guy
worked for was sort of.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
Like, well, I don't I don't feel like producing.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I think I want to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
I was like, oh no, well, I was trying to
fare what to do? You know, I was producing, I
was directing, you know, what do I want to do?
And I give all kudos to my husband who said,
you know, you're setting up a lot of stuff. Why
don't you just keep doing book to screen? And I
was like, wow, it's like the worst time at two
thousand and eight, you know, height of the recession, you know,
(05:18):
bad time to start a company. But I thought, okay,
I'll do it for a year, and I started vast
entertainment book to screen only, and I knew a lot
of people in New York publishers, authors, so I thought.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'll see what happens.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
And in that year it was like crazy, I think,
I set up like twelve book projects and I thought, uh.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Okay, well that's working. So that became sort of my
bread and butter.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
And you know, it's morphed a little as time's gone on,
because first of all, nobody wanted to hear the word
book in two thousand and eight because three hundred pages,
you know, that was like so intimidating. So I slowly
had to come up with ways of pitching this material
without having them have to read a three hundred page book.
That's sort of where the genesis of sell your story
in a single sentence came from. And I also, you know,
(06:05):
had to figure out how to beat all the book scouts.
So I ended up spending a lot of time in
New York I still do, and and really focusing on
books before they became books. So I would say about
ninety percent of what I set up is based on
book proposals and partials like fifty to one hundred pages.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
I just don't wait for the.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Whole book, because you know what, everything's going to change
during the adaptation process anyway, as it did for the Duff,
which was the very first thing I set up with McGee.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
So you know, it's it's just.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
A it's such a it's a process of going from
something that's on the page is something on the screen,
and no matter what, it's going to change. So so
I just don't wait for the book anymore.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
And that's sort of how Vast has grown, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So I wanted to ask Leane, you know, how do
you find the books that you want to that you
want to sort of turn into movies or maybe even
just you know, set up. How do you find the
books that you know? Do you you have somebody that
that sort of gives you recommendations or are you always
at like got Borns and Nobles or something looking through
the best seller section?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
You know, Because my company focuses on like pre publication material,
I get everything from author's agents in New York.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I work with about sixty or sixty five.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Now writer's agents out of New York, and I go
to New York about five times a year and I
sit with them.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
I think face to face is really important.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
You know a lot of people they wait till the
announcement comes out on publisher's marketplace, and they have their
intern call and say, like, send us the galleys when
it's ready, And I just don't think that's the.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Way to do it.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
I think the way to do it is to go
out there and sit with them face to face and say,
you know, what do you have coming down the pipe
that you're excited about that you haven't even gone out
with yet.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
You know, That's where I get most of my material.
And I have.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Literally I set up a project with Peter Churnan on
a hundred pages. I set up a project with Scott
Stuber on eleven page book proposal. I just have a
project with Joel Silver that literally came from an agent
calling me saying, Hey, my author just sent me this
idea of some mean she wants to write.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
It's only like twenty pages. Let me send it to you.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
And I read it and I called her and said,
have her write this right now, because I can set
this up on these twenty pages which I did with Joel.
So it's it's just one of these things where you
never know what when you're going to hear it.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
I read everything myself.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
I get about nine hundred books a year, so I
do a lot of reading, and a lot of them
are unfinished, which is how I like it. I like
things really early because if the concept is good, if
I can sell it in a sentence, you know, I
can sell it.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
And you know that's something I wanted to get into too,
because you just wrote the book. You know, sell your
story in a single sentence. And I think it's so important, Lane,
because you know, there's so many times that I've had
screenwriters and these just sort of, you know, they say, oh,
I can't really sum it up in a sentence. You know,
my story's so complex, you know, and there's so many
things going on, and you know, I'm sure when you know. Obviously,
when you're hearing this too, you're probably thinking, well, you
(08:47):
don't know what your story's about then, right, right. So
imagine pitching to a manager or an agent or a
studio and just saying, oh, well, I can't really say
what it's about, you know, So if you have to
read you'll have to read this to actually understand. And
so you know what was sort of the impetus for
you to create, you know, to write the book, you know,
sell your story in a single sentence.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I had been talking about this at writers' conferences around
the country, around the world.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I was at the London Book Fair.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
I have been talking about how to create this logline,
this selling sentence for years, probably six years now. And
at the end of each one of these little seminars
I always have obviously authors and screenwriters coming up and saying,
do you have a book?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Do you have a book?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The answer is no.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
And then at my last seminar and Boston a year
ago or so, a friend of mine who's one of
the agents I work with, Catherine Sands, came up to
me in front of this line of people and said.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Yes, she does have a book. Like, what are you doing?
Speaker 5 (09:47):
And she said to me, laying, all these people are
asking you for a book. You have to write this.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
And I said, I don't have time to write this,
and she browbeat me and said, yes you do. And
I give her full credit because she also got it
to one of the you know, biggest global publishers in.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
The world, Norton, which is amazing.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
And really it was it wasn't as hard to write
as I thought because I had spoken on it for
so long. I really developed this system for how to
create that sentence. How do you get a three hundred
page book down into something you can sell. So it
was all a matter of just getting it on paper,
you know, because I've been speaking about it forever, and
you know, to me, the big thing is I always
(10:36):
tell writers who like but everything's important and it's my baby,
and I said, look, you know, if you can't get
someone to read it, it doesn't do you any good
at all. So the goal is to figure out what's
most unique about your work, what is the most unique
thing about it, because that's what's going to sell it.
That's what a log line is. It's one sentence highlighting
(10:57):
what's most unique about your work. Because everyone wants something
new and different and flavor of the month and shiny
new toy. You know, nobody wants something that they feel
like they've heard before. So I'll give you my favorite example.
I was brought a book really long I think it
was almost foreigner pages this woman and it's her life story.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
It's a real story.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
And she was into drugs and her boyfriend was into
drugs and you know, they went to prison and she
was a drug mule and all this stuff. And I
said to her, like, I feel like I've seen this.
I feel like, you know, it's like the movie Traffic,
Like there's you know, what's different, Give me specifics. I'm
always saying that, be more specific, because you know what
makes it unique is the specifics. And after you know,
hours and days of you know, slogging through this material
(11:38):
and talking to her, and you know, ultimately I came
up with a log line which will show you how
powerful these things are. The log line is it's the
story of a woman who at only nineteen became a
ran the biggest drug cartel in US history. So you
have that as you're selling sentence, a pretty good chance
I can set that up.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, you know, and when you just mentioned in that
log line too, you know, that's even seems like something
that you know, actors will be going after because you know,
and talking with you know, all the screenwriters and producers
on this podcast and even off the podcast, you know.
Usually that that's the two big things that producers ask about,
right is what's it about? And who's storing in it?
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yep, yep. And believe me, it applies to everything.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
You can come up with a log line as a writer,
as an actor, if you're a businessman selling a new business,
I mean, anything you're selling can be crafted into a
log line and should be because look, the minute is
a writer. For example, the minute you say I'm a writer,
what's the first question they're going to say, well, what
are you working on?
Speaker 4 (12:37):
What are you writing? It's the first question. You better
have a great answer.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
This is also something to I've found lame is you know,
people do want to inject their own lives into their screenplays,
you know, and usually you know, when they say things
like that, like hey, this really happened to me in
real life. Usually, you know, I always say like, well,
you know, I don't know if it would fit in
this screenplay. Like, for instance, I hade a friend of
mine and he everything always happened in his life. He
would turn into like the screenplay, and finally he wrote one,
(13:03):
and it was like a hodgepodge of everything that's like
happened to him in the past like three years, and
I said, do you really feel like this is enough
to carry a screenplay? Just sort of having all these
scenes and stuff. And you know, one of the best
pieces of writing advice I've ever been given was through
your log line, you can extract everything from your story. So,
(13:24):
you know, when you do have something like that, like
you get an idea like hey, you know a guy
meets a girl and the girl is a drug mule
something like that, you know you can, you know, you
have to take that concept turning into a log line,
evolve that log line, and then you can extract your
story from said log line.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
The log line actually is absolutely true can tell you
what's missing from your screenplay. You know, I've I've spent
so much time talking about the three main tents of
a log line, which or who's your protagonist, what do
they want?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And what's at stake? And so many times the what's
at stake is missing?
Speaker 5 (13:55):
You know, they'll say, like, oh, it's about a queen
who has to get back the stolen gold for her country,
Well why I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
What happens if she doesn't?
Speaker 5 (14:06):
You know, So the logline actually can be really helpful
in telling you what's missing from your screenplay? And also
you know, in what your example was with your friend
is like that's what I call an event to event
to event screenplay.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
It's like all this.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Stuff happens and there's no reason why nobody cares. So,
you know, without that motivating force the what do I want,
you're really you really have problems. So that's another reason
why loglines are so beneficial, because they can really help
focus you on what's not in your screenplay and should be.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And also what I found too is that a lot
of screenplays that I read who are written by sort
of you know, amateurs to like semi professionals, there's a
lot of times there's no goal, like do you know
what I mean? Like, there's nothing that is pushing this narrative.
And then that's when I go back and I'm thinking, well,
what would the logline be of this screenplay? And let
me let's just give you a quick example. One of
them was about a guy who his girlfriend dumps them.
(15:00):
His fiance dumps him, and he sort of spends the
rest of the screenplay just sort of wandering, I mean,
and I kept thinking to myself, you know what, you know,
there was no goal there wasn't even you know, you
know what lane I would have settled for, even the
character even saying like, see that thing, that's what I need,
like he just could come out and set it, because
I thought, maybe, you know, maybe there's something I'm missing
(15:20):
in a subtext here, maybe there's something I'm missing. And
I got to the end and there was nothing. There
was no goal, and I said, you know, and I
said to the person, you know, I think you need
to go back and go through, you know, drafts, because
I said, this is a draft one, obviously, and he
looks at me, he goes, Dave, he goes, this isn't
a draft one, this is draft ten. I said, draft ten.
(15:41):
And then all came back laying into the log line
and I said, there's no goal. There's nothing driving this narrative.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Yeah, the what do I want is completely missing.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
And because of that, you know, everything is, you know,
just happening, and for no purpose. That character has to
have a want, that's what motivates them through this story.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, very true. That you know often and now you know,
as I read more screenplays on the professional side, I
also when I'm going through I always pick out two
what the theme is because I mean, the really good
writers you see that theme and you see, like, you know,
all that different stuff come up. Sometimes it's very obvious.
Sometimes it's in the subtext. And you know, that's something
that I've been looking for now as I read more
(16:20):
professional screenplays.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Yeah, I think, you know, I think once you get
the basics down, then you start expanding into the cool
stuff like the theme and the voice and you know,
all that kind of cool stuff. And the problem I
think is a lot of people jump ahead to that
without having the basics down first.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, because you know, as you know, it doesn't really
you know, matter if we're talking about a novel or
screenplay or what have you, because that structure is so important. Yes,
you know, because I mean, you know what I mean
like that just you know, finding the way you know what.
You know, we were just talking about, you know, event screenwriting,
but you know what is really driving this narrative? What
is taking us from A to B to C to
D T E so that way we can follow this
(17:00):
character as they make these decisions for better or for
worse for themselves.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
That's right, that's right, that's what's driving that story. It's
sort of like when people the first question I always
ask is who's the protagonist? And they laugh, right, But
but you'd be amazed how many people have like the
antagonist as their protagon.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
I mean, crazy stuff.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
And I say to them, you know, they'll say, like, oh,
I have an ensemble piece for example.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
I'll say, but.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Even in an ensemble, there's usually one person whose decisions
are driving that story forward, who has the most to lose,
the most at stake.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
That is your protagonist.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
And you'd be amazed at how many people write not
knowing their protagonist is.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I completely agree, because you know, and I mean I
can only imagine you know, all the you know, all
the projects that you see. I mean, I'm just you know,
I read screenplays, you know, from all different sources, and
I mean some of them, you know, I see the
log line and it's just you know, and and I
know someone not even read the screenplay, and it's just,
you know, they they don't have the right main character,
is what I'm trying to say, you know what I mean,
Like the antagonist is much more thought out. The antagonist
(17:59):
is the one controlling the story. Yeah, uh, you know,
and you know, in reality, it's almost like the protagonist
is like an afterthought like all right, you know, then
here's some guy he could fight. You know, it's like
you know, you know what I mean, Like he's just
sort of shoehorned in there to the story, so so
something can happen exactly.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
And I think that again, like the log line, by
creating that log line, who's the protagonist, what do they want?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
What is at stake?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Then you find out ahead of time what your problem is.
If you can't identify your protagonist, that's a big problem.
And it's good because it helps you refocus once to
discover who your protagonist is, so that you really can
make your story, you know, sing And I think that's
one of the one of the things I love most
about the log line is a side being able to
(18:42):
sell your material. It really helps you focus on, you know,
maybe some problems inherent in what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
So Leanne, I don't know if you could think of
this all, you know, just off the top of your head,
but you know, what are some of your favorite log
lines that that you have that you've ever read or
come across. And I sort of just jumped out at
you and you said that that's it. That's the project.
I want to go after uh.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Sadly, I don't get sent log lines, which is why
I started teaching this. I really want someone else to
do the work and then bring it to me. Normally
I'm the one who has to create that.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I have one that I use.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
As an example, a lot that I pitched to Johnny
Depp's company and a while back, which I just love
because it sort of gives when people are like, what's.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
A log line? I always use this. It's a woman's.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Idyllic homecoming is shattered when she finds herself the target
of a coven determined to make her their thirteenth member.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I love that log line.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
It just it's so powerful, you know, and any good
line log line is powerful. There's about, you know, nine
million examples in the Book of Great log Lines, and
I tried to include a log line for every sort
of element I'm trying to teach. But I have also
included in the book a whole bunch of workbooks you
can practice, because.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
It's really you know, log lines are all about writing
and rewriting.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
You know, just as much as you would rewrite your
script or your manuscript. For a book, the logline gets rewritten.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
You know.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
I gave an example on the book of like a
ten step process, but really that was one hundred step process.
I just took ten out for the book. You know,
you're always rewriting, rewriting, rewriting because you want to streamline
it and use more, you know, dynamic vocabulary, and you know,
you do everything you can and make it sell.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
That's a thing.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Once you have the perfect sentence like that, you are
good to go.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
One thing that I've become more conscious of is when
I'm watching TV and I hit the TV guide button
on my remote, and you know, it comes up a
description of the movie. And then I started to realize,
you know, these are log lines, you know, because these
are these are what's you know, telling you what the
movie's about. And I came onto one on the Sci
Fi channel and it was a movie called Ogre, and
(20:56):
I remember just reading the synopsis this this the line,
and I said, wow, that gave him the whole movie.
And I can remember it too. It was something like
a girl and a guy stumble upon a remote village
ruled by an ogre just in time for the yearly
human sacrifice or is something along those lines. I may
(21:16):
I may have just completely butchered that, but it was
something along those lines and I and I said, wow,
you know that that's the log line right there.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting to me, like considering
how many bad log lines I get. Once in a while,
you know, I get sent one and I think, wow, actually,
that's that's pretty damn good.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
You know. It's it's it's rare.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
It's a rare occurrence, unfortunately, but you know, I it's
I was just sent one. I have a website called
sell It in a Sentence dot com where people can
go and get you know, log line help. And one
woman sent me a log line which was actually quite good.
It needed one little tweak, but you know, I read
it and I.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Thought, huh, you know, that's not half bad.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You know.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
And it's terrible to say this, but I'm always surprised
by that because I get so many, so many log
lines that are just you know, like you'll get the
people who try to cram their plot into a one
sentence thing, so you have like you know, commas everywhere
and a whole bunch of parentheses and like dot dot
dots and like it's just crazy shit, you know that
they're trying to do to make sure that you that
they can get one sentence out of like everything they
(22:16):
feels important on the planet. I always say that to
writers when they try to do that. I say, like,
you're not trying to get your book in a one sentence,
good luck doing that. Which you're really trying to do
is find what's most unique about your work and put
that into one sentence.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
You know. And you know, Lane, what you just said there,
I really just extracted something very very important from So
anyone listening that didn't pick up on what Lane just said,
she could send a lot of bad log lines. So
what I think is, if you actually have a good
log line, it seems like you could stand out pretty easily.
Is that Is that a good assumption line?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
I spend a lot of time revamping really bad log lines. Yeah,
because I think there's a lot of misinformation on how
to create a log line out there that I saw
when I was starting to do my book that really
don't help you. Like, for example, they tell you to
do like the you know, this movie meets that movie,
you know, And I look at that and I think,
how does.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
That sell your particular story.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
I will never understand that that's not a logline that
doesn't sell your work, that sells me two movies I
may have seen, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So I had a friend who was a he was
a screenwriter, and he actually got a job as a
script reader, you know, one of the quote unquote gatekeepers
at a studio, and you know, they would give him
tons of screenplays to read. And he said, you know,
basically he would go through all these screenplays and I
mean he said, it was so hard to get through
a lot of these because said they you know, it
(23:37):
was spelling mistakes, it was grammar mistakes, you know. I
mean he you know, you know, and he would at
the end have to do coverage on it. You know,
he would have to write no past you know, et cetera.
And so he said, whenever he came across a good script,
he wanted to send that person like a you know,
a dozen roses and be like, thank you so much.
He's like, because you know, you know, for every I
don't know, not you know, a thousand screenplays nine hundred
(23:59):
and ninety nine or just passes, and that one is
actually an accept or recommend and he said, it's it's
just so refreshing to and he said, really you can
tell because you know, like you've seen all the log lines,
he said, you can tell who has an idea of
what they're doing versus who has who's just sort of
throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Absolutely absolutely makes it so clear, you know. And sadly,
you know, as I said earlier to you when we
were chatting, you know, you can be the best writer
in the world, but if you can't sell it, it
makes no difference at all. So it's really it's a
shame to me when you have a writer who's got
an amazing piece of work, but they can't come up
with a log line to save their life, you know,
(24:37):
so how are they gonna sell it?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So do you recommend, you know, for writers you know
who who were you know, maybe you're starting a new
book or a new screenplay, do you recommend that they
sort of start with a with a concept or you know,
or even a vague idea of the log line to
sort of build from before they even would start trying
to write the actual book.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, you know.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
I recommend it so often because cause Otherwise you get
people and I mentioned this in the book who you Know,
They've written three hundred pages, but it's an event to
event to event book. Nothing's motivated. And it's really sad
because once they figure out the log them, they're like,
oh crap, now I got to go back and rewrite
the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Because your log line is like your rudder right on
a boat, it's steering you.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
So I always recommend that writers create the log line
first because it keeps you focused as you write on
what's important.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, and that I look that analogy. It's a rudder
of your story, your runner of their ship. I really
like that analogy.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah, keeps you focused. If it's not.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
If what your writing doesn't have anything to do with
your log line, it shouldn't be in your book or
your screenplay.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yeah. I have oftentimes too, when I read different screenplays,
I see things like, you know, scenes or whatever, or
characters that just sort of provide, you know what I mean,
Like they're just why are they there? You know what
I mean? And I think, you know, when if you
can take that concept, you know, turn that into a
log line, take that log line and start to build
upon that that way, you know, you you'll know it's
(26:02):
you know what belongs and what doesn't. It's sort of
what Patty Chevski used to do, because he used to
do something similar. I think he would. He would boil
it down. He would take his log line and take
a theme and put it on the wall in front
of him and say, if it doesn't match this, it's
not going in the screenplay regardless.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
I think it's it's incredibly valuable to do that log
line first, Otherwise you're just gonna do a lot of
rewriting later unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah. Yeah, that's something too that I've learned when I'm
when I'm writing, if I didn't have the you know,
at least you know, you know something to guide me along.
You know, it's just you You write yourself into a
hole and you go, wait, what the hell where do
I go? Now? You know what scene comes next? You know,
should I now go to see what the antagonist is doing?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Well?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Who's the antagonist? You know.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
It's like it's like if you were you know, like out,
you know, hiking in the wilderness without a map or
without a compass, you know you're gonna get lost.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I was actually just reading a story or two about
somebody who actually went hiking and didn't have a compass
and she was lost for fifty days.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Oh god, oh god, that's horrible.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Yeah she uh. I'm sorry not to get too sidetracked,
but I just thought that story was fascinating because she
she got up early, and and she she was with
a camping group and she decided to go up by
herself without a compass and didn't know how to you know,
didn't know how to read any of the natures, you know,
like you know, the moss on the side of the
trees or the north star and got completely turned around
very quickly and had no idea which way, you know,
(27:28):
to go. But I so so sorry not to get
too sidetracked, but I always, I always find stories about
you know, like Wilder's survival like that fascinating because I
mean and that and that that was very quickly how
that happened to her too. But sorry, but to get
back to, you know, tell about log lines and your story.
What recommendations would you have for writers, you know, who
were setting out now to maybe start writing a book,
(27:52):
or recommendations were trying to you know, even to sell
a book. Or even to pitch to you know, or
even to pitch people like you laying you know what
recommendations you know, do you have for them? What should
they be doing?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Go buy my book?
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Yeah, I mean number one, you know, have that logline
in place, have a great selling be able to say,
you know, it's the story of a woman who at
nineteen ran the biggest drug cartel in US history. You know,
have that sentence ready, because that's how you're going to
grab someone's attention, my attention. A networking execs attention anyone.
(28:26):
You know that even like when they if they're writing
a book, I would say, like put that at the
top of your query letter to all the agents for
you know, because believe me, it'll get the agent interested
in reading. And plus they can use it to sell
it to an editor or a publisher as well. So
it's sort of this this gift that keeps on giving.
You know, that's it's a great way to start, you
know because aside from helping you write, it really does
(28:49):
sell your material, and if you can't sell it, it
does you no good to write it anyway.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, you know that's very true, you know, because you know,
even me, like sometimes I write, you know, and sometimes
I always think myself, well, if it doesn't sell, it
could be a practice script. But then again, you're always
you're always thinking, well, if I write it, I do
want to actually I do want people to actually see
it or buy it or whatever. You know.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
And I think the other thing I usually recommend is
I tell people to, you know, like, for example, I
speak at this great conference called Grub Street mus in
the Marketplace. It's in Boston, and like, these are invaluable
places for writers because you know, you can pay to
have a ten or twenty minute session with these writers agents.
What a great way to get in front of these people,
(29:30):
so you're not just in the slush pile with the
nine billion other people sending stuff in that was not solicited.
You're actually talking to them face to face about your material.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
It's it's a great way to get an agent.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
It's a it's just a great way to learn the
process and practice, you know, talking to these folks and
hearing what they like and don't like.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I mean, it's just so invaluable.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
I always recommend go to writers' conferences with that, you know,
that that provide that option.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
To the show, because you know, it's the same thing
I do, going to New York and sitting in front
of the author's agents, you know, in person, it's like
there's nothing like a face to face.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
So Lene, you know, if there was, you know, writers
listening to this who haven't never been to a writer's conference,
you know, is there like a top three writers conferences
across America? Because most of my listeners are in America,
so that's why I said in America. But is there any three,
you know, like top commerces or even just one or
two that you would recommend to anyone listening.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
I mean, grub Street News in the marketplace is one
of the best. Honestly, It's why I do it every year.
I also do a thing called the Next best Seller
out of New York, which is more specialized. They only
allow I think ten people in. And then of course
there's like Thriller Fest. It depends what you're writing. There
are a ton of writers conferences specifically for whatever genre
(30:57):
you're doing, but grub Street is is the one that
I always recommend because first of all, it's incredibly well
run and also just because it's just a it's an
amazing opportunity to literally sit across from a writer's agent
and talk to them about your work.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
How great is that? You know?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, that is very true.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I had a friend of mine go to a FI,
the American Film Institute, and they had that that conference,
American Film Market, and I and he went to there
and he they he was looking around and they said
a lot of a lot of you know, distributors were like,
we want no zombie projects and no found footage projects
because the market is saturated. But you know, it's good
that he went there and met them face to face
(31:38):
because that's the that was the people that were in
charge of buying in the foreign you know, the foreign areas,
the foreign markets and everything. And they they told him,
they said, were we every other pitch we hear is
a zombie film or a found footage film or the
Ultimate Lane which is a zombie found footage film.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
The beauty of that is that he got the knowledge
that that tells you what they they don't want.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
That's you know, that's invaluable knowledge.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah, it really is. I mean, and you can see,
you know firsthand what's what's being sold and what's you know,
not being sold. And you know, just what you were
talking about with those writer conferences. You know that that
is invaluable information. Being able to go there and meet
with these people face to face.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Oh yeah, they're honest to god, I think people are
more apt to look at material from someone that they've
met or know than you know, some slush pile, you know,
faceless submission.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Yeah. And you know, I had shown Coin on on
the podcast, and he's actually an editor, and you know
that that's one of the things he said, you know,
he sold because he was twenty years he was working
in as a story editor, and he said he would
just you know, the the slush pile you know what
I mean, that pile of scripts that they just went,
you know this, there's nothing we could do. He said,
it would just get so much every day that he
ended up writing a book. So it reminded me similar
(32:51):
to to you your story, because you know, you eventually
really you know, wrote a book because everyone was saying,
you know, you should write a book. You've seen all
this stuff and it's just you know, it's just pretty interesting.
The parallel.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Yes, yeah, it's you know It's one of those things
where he I think, you never think you're going to
do it, and then one day you're like, oh crap,
I really got to write.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
This down, you know, Lane. So we've been talking for
you know, about thirty five minutes. I know you have,
you know, a million more books to read. You get
a more log lines. So I just wanted to ask,
you know, in closing, is there anything that you we
didn't get a chance to talk about, or anything maybe
that you wanted to say that we get it. We
(33:29):
didn't get a chance to to sort of put a
period at the end of this conversation.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I mean, I think, I know we brushed on it lightly,
but I just I always like to reiterate to writers
to think about what's at stake with their characters, because
number one, that's the main thing that's always missing from
most log lines, but also because for example, I had
a woman send me one about her character had a
(33:54):
brain tumor that was like allowing him to play golf
really well, and her log line had to do with
him wanting to to play in the Masters, And I
said to her, you know, it's it's such a The
problem is if he doesn't play in the Masters, So
what he's not playing golf? Oh, well, you know what
I mean, The stakes aren't high enough. And it sort
(34:15):
of changed everything for her because she had been writing
based on that premise it's all about him wanting to
play in the Masters, and I said, you know, the
stakes are so so, so, so important, And ultimately, the
log line on I can't remember the exact one was
something to the effect of, you know, if he kept
that brain tumor, or you know, he could either have
the surgery right, which would save his life, but he
(34:38):
can't play golf anymore, or keep that brain tumor play
the Masters but die from it.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
Now it's life or death stakes. Now it matters. Now
I care. Now that story is so much more powerful.
So really, I spent a lot of time reminding writers
that those stakes are so valuable and important that they
have to be high enough for us to care hair
otherwise we're not going to want to read their work.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
You know that. That's actually very good because when you
when you were describing that, I actually was going to say, well,
maybe he wanted to win the Masters for his parents,
or you know what I mean, like something like that.
But you're you're your idea was much better than mind.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Well, if you think about it, if he doesn't play
in the Masters, what does it matter? You know, it's like, oh, well,
he didn't get to do a golf game, and I'm
sure the golfers out there are like, oh.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Come on.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Alan Watt, who was on the podcast, he once said
to me, you know, problems get solved, stories get resolved.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Oh I love that. That's a great quote.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, Alan, Is is phenomenal. And that's one of the
things you know that I sort of have been noticing
more of too, is you know, what is a story
problem and how do we resolve that? Because you know
it's sort of like a character has that dilemma. Well,
that dilemma you know, stems. You know, you have two
bad options, you know, and you know you have to
pick one, which is the dilemma of himself because of
(35:56):
the problem. And you know, he sort of says, you know,
you have to how does this get resolved? So when
he know he was crafting his stories, you know, he
was saying, you know, you can't really and he uses
a quote from Einstein, you can't solve the same You
can't solve a problem with the same perception that caused
the problem. She had to have a shift in perception,
(36:17):
so uh, and that's how stories get resolved. But it
just reminded me because that was, uh, yeah, I think
you know your your idea of stakes and why he's
doing it. That was actually very good. I like that,
you know, does he stay and you know, does he
stay in the master's but the brain twmer kills him?
Or does he not play? You know what I mean?
I really like that.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Now you care? Right now? It's like life or death?
Is you know how important is that game? You know?
Speaker 5 (36:38):
To him it's obviously, you know, depending on his choice,
it's very important.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
So uh and then we care obviously. But I love
that quote.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
And you know, it's funny. I have a I always
talk about this. I went to a writer's conference and
Anne Perry was speaking. I've just set up her books
with the Lauren Schuler Donner and she's so prolific, and
she has this quote that I also memorize because I
was like, it's so good. A lot of authors will say,
or screenwriters will say, should I write about what I know?
(37:07):
I keep being told write about what you know? And
she said, write about what you care. About nobody cares
what you know. And I loved that. I thought that
was so great. It's like it's always my last little
comment to writers, write about what you care about.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Yeah, you know that is phenomenal. That is absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
A million books in prints, So you have to quote
her anyway.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
You can't argue with sales. Go there, you go, Lane?
Where can people find you out online?
Speaker 5 (37:37):
I am at vast vast like a vast array of
material Dash entertainment dot com or if they want logline help,
they go to sell it in a sentence dot com.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And are you in any social media sites?
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I am at.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Lane chefter bish on Twitter, and I'm on Facebook too.
I don't know what the thing is, but you can
find me on Facebook too.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I just actually follow you on Twitter by the well.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Perfect perfect.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
I got to get better at that social media thing.
I saw Dave that you have all these books on
social media. I gotta go buy one of those.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I participated in one. I actually I actually don't have
any other books for social media.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
That one that was on your site. Is that the
one that you contributed to.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
The one but with Guy Kalafaki, Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
his hey yeah the Art of social Media. I was
able to contribute on that, and then I also help
with the book by Paul Holligan on how to Podcast.
So uh yeah, those are those are my two small
additions to the to the to Amazon. One day, I
hope to be in your shoes and be able to
you have my own book. Uh so uh, I mean,
(38:38):
you know, like your book is. I'm actually going to
pick up a copy very soon of your book. I
actually don't know why I didn't pick up a copy yet.
But when I do pick up a copy, I'm going
to make sure to email you with a bunch of questions. No,
I'm just kidding, but uh but I will link to
every all of your all of your website, your all
your social media channels in the show notes, Lane, I
want to say thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Well, thanks for having me Dave. I I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Oh it was a bleast having you on. And if
you ever want to come back on, please let me know.
The door is always open.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Awesome. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Oh my pleasure, take care Landy me too, Bye bank you.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Indie film Muscle
dot com, Forward slash eight sixty and if you have
it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.
Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
(39:30):
so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there,
and I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
indiefilm Hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
F I L M h U S T l E
dot com.
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