The Country 26/02/25: Nicola Willis talks to Jamie Mackay

Filling in for the PM, the Finance Minister weighs in on woke banks but does the “cosy pillow fight” continue unabated despite her strong rhetoric? Should we stay in the Paris Climate Agreement? Can we afford increased defence spending? And what’s all the fuss with school lunches? What happened to parental responsibility?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Normally on a Wednesday, the PM kicks off the country,
but he's out of the country. He's in Vietnam. No
doubt the looming specter of China and the Pacific will
be on the agenda. But filling in is Finance Minister
Nichola Willis. And Nikola, you've got stuck into the banks.
You said it was a cozy pillow fight. I take
it you agree with the New Zealand First stance on

(00:21):
woke banks.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, I want to see our agricultural sector, our important industries,
our businesses getting access to lending so that they can
be more productive than they can grow. And I'm really
concerned by anything that suggests that some firms are finding
it difficult to get the finance they need. So I

(00:45):
share the concerns that are behind New Zealand First's bill.
That's why I've suggested that Palmatary Select Committee look very
carefully at these issues. Now that the bill's been drawn
from the ballot, National Party INMPS will discuss it, look
at the detail of it, does it achieve what it
sets out to achieve, and then we'll decide whether or
not to support it.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Well, you've had strong rhetoric on this. But as a
finance minister, what can you do? What pressure can you
apply to the banks?

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, the first thing I've done is set out new
expectations for the Reserve Bank and our financial policy remitch.
I've made it clear that I want then to be
removing regulatory barriers which have prevented banks from expanding, which
had stopped new banks entering New Zealand, because those are
the things that will lead to more competition in the

(01:33):
medium terms. I've already done that and that work is underway.
The next thing that I can do is ensure that
when we're looking at these issues such as lending banks
stop to particular institutions, we get to the bottom of
it and we fix up anything in law or the
regulations that are enabling that to happen. You know, I
went and visited WYTOMO groups recently. They're the petrol station,

(01:57):
the little train that could have challenged the big petrol ferns,
and they were clear with me they has a situation
where their access to borrowing in the future is being
limited because of the climate goals of banks. I don't
think that's good for New Zealand, and I am pretty
determined that we ensure that that is not in fact

(02:17):
the case. So these are issues that where the detail matters.
We're going to get into the detail, but our goal
is clear. We want productive lending going to the productive sector.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, my Timo is doing a great job of keeping
the big players honest. Okay, the Paris Climate Agreement and
whether we should stay in it, are you nats to
woke on climate change? I know you're getting into wok banks.
Your coalition partners, for instance, are taking a stronger line.
Winston wants this out. Seymour says the cost of staying
in will be greater eventually than the punishment for leaving.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well, hang on, hang on. First of all, I'm a
big believer that you do what you say and you
say what you do. So let's be clear. Cabinet Hank
Prize is three parties, the Zealand First Act and National
All three parties signed up to the decision to remain
in the Paris Agreement and set a target. Accordingly, that

(03:12):
was a decision that all of those three parties made.
So I would invite anyone listening to your show to
interrogate that before they suggest that there is very different
positions being taken by the three parties. Second thing is
I am really clear on this. New Zealand has to
do what's in our economic interests, what's best for our people,
our economy, our farmers, our exporters, and every decision we

(03:36):
take in relation to climate change the Paris Agreement should
be judged by that. And so the bottom line is
our government will not shut down the world's best farmers
or send billions of dollars overseas to meet our climate targets.
That not be in New Zealand's interest and instead, what
we're doing is keeping the doors open to markets who
do care about whether or not we're part of international agreements.

(03:58):
Do you think of the UK? You think of that
A You's actually part of our trade agreements with those
countries that we will be making contributions on climate change.
So the risk we would run by making a dramatic
with all is that that could actually limit our exporter's
ability to access those very important markets.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Now you've got to put together a budget and may
increased defense spending is on the agenda. We've got Chinese
firing shots and anger in the Tasman. Can we afford it?

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yes, we can afford it because we have to afford it.
There can be no economic security without defense security. And
New Zealand across successive governments has allowed our defense capability
to be eroded and it's up to our government to
rebuild it and we will. We've been working on a
defense Capability Plan which takes a strategic view of what

(04:48):
are the assets we need to order and build over
the medium term, what order should we do that in?
How do we build up our capability? And I'm committed
as Finance Minister that every budget are to will include
increased funding for our defense forces.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
And now here's a final question for you, not on
the script, but I know you can think on your feet.
You're a very smart woman. Nikola Willis school lunches eleven
days straight of buttered chicken. I mean I went to
boarding school. I would have killed for eleven straight days
of buttered chicken. But are we putting the horse before
the cart here? Should we be more targeted in how
we feed hungry kids at school? Is it the state's

(05:25):
job to give holess bolus kids school lunches, especially in
I know it's targeting the lower their style schools, but
a lot of parents are just abdicating their responsibility.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well, I'm going to say something controversial, Jamie, as there
are mums and dads out there who are very unhappy
with the buttered chicken. I'd suggest to them that a
Marmite's sandwidgeon of banana would be just fine in the
lunch box. And actually, in New Zealand, we do have
a social welfare system that is there to ensure that
all families have the material means they need to provide

(05:57):
for their children. Now, we accept that it's not good
to have a kid at school who isn't eating and
is unable to focus, and that was the original intentions
for school lunch program to provide for those children. But
it's my view that in doing that we must not
lose sight of parental responsibility. I think every parent has

(06:18):
a responsibility to ensure that their child is well fed,
and we shouldn't just think that it's up to David
Seymour and the contracts he forms to make sure that
kids are well.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Fed, well spoken. Nicholas Wellis, thanks for your time and
thanks for filling in for the PM.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
My absolute pleasure love being on your show.