June 26, 2025 • 7 mins
The Minister of Agriculture and Trade is pleased that the Farm-to-Forest Ban passed its first reading unanimously in the House on Tuesday evening. But is the Government shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
But let's kick it off with the Minister of Agriculture
and Trade who was one of the keynotes speakers at
the PINS summit, Todd McLay. Good to have you on
the show. Todd couldn't catch up with you at the
awards dinner because you had to go back to Wellington
because on Tuesday evening the farm to Forest ban passed
(00:20):
its first reading unanimously, I think, and this is off
the back of excuse me sorry, and this was off
the back of every party in the House voting to
support it. Did I get my evening's right? Was it
Tuesday or Wednesday evening?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It was, Hey, Jamie, good evening. Yes, it was Tuesday evening.
You're right and that's right. So the first step toward
stopping wholesale farmer fist conversion planting of plying trees on
our best food producing land going to ets has happened.
It started. We're going to get this in law by
October this year. But it's backdated to when the Prime
(00:58):
Minister and I made the announcement down in Central Otago
or Southland on the fourth of December last year. And
it is very very well put together. It's very very
strict and as I hear a few people around the
place wondering if somebody's gone out and bought trees thinking
they can plant. You know, after that date, they've got
to be very careful. They're going to lose.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Okay, Todd, Well, why am I hearing anecdotally that there's
still a lot of blanket farm to forestry conversions happening.
People are rauting the rules?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
No, well, so in essence, the announcements made from the
fourth of December, that's when it will take effect. Any
planting you're seeing at the moment is a decision that
was made more than a year ago. So if you think, Jamie,
you went out the end the last year for that
and brought some land, it normally takes about a season
to two seasons before you're able to plant. So there's
still going to be some purchases of conversions that are
(01:51):
in the system going all the way through. We're put
in transitional means. As they say, if somebody was in
the process before that date, you know, we're a center
right government were not taking value off them based upon
their decision at the time. But anybody out there that
thinks from the fourth of December onwards are smarter than
the law is going to lose some money because we
have put this together to achieve what we need to
(02:13):
stop wholesale conversion of our best food producing land and
going into trees.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And when will this finally get into legislation. It's obviously
past its first reading this week.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, so we're putting it through very quickly. I sent
it off to the Environment Committee. It will be out
for consultation and they've got seven weeks to work through
it and turn it around. We're given the ability to
virtually work every hour of the day between now and then.
I do expect there'll be a lot of submissions on
both sides around the law. They'll get it back to
us and I think it's by the thirteenth of August,
(02:48):
and then we will put it through the raining stages
during the month of August, so we can get some
of the rules and the regulations in place in September
and it will take effect during October, and so we
move very very quickly. The point of this is it's
very well signaled. I campaigned on this policy, it came
through the coalition agreement, and then we've taken a lot
of time to get the detail rights and there aren't
(03:09):
any you know, any consequences that are not foreseen. There
is a lot of detail in there, but fundamentally it
is as simple as us. New Zealand makes money exporting
around the world, and we do so by producing food
and we're wholesale conversion the farms takes place with these
rural schools. We lose rural communities with these rural families
(03:30):
and rural businesses. There's a role for farshy to play,
a very important one in New Zealand, but not at
the expense or particularly sheep and beeflanned. And so I'm
pretty pleased, surprised, but very pleased that there was unanimous
support in Parliament for this. I think some of the
opposition parties sort of had pre qualifications and we'll find
ways to wriggle out. But I say to the Labor Party,
(03:51):
if you actually pack farmers, vote for this bill and
then get on board with some other stuff I'm doing.
Because it's good for all of New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I've got to take and Todd says B. S. Todd.
A rampant forestry conversions still going on on Hawks Bay.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, but largely that's nothing to do with something that
happened from the fourth of December onwards, and just as
you know, there'll be farmers that want to make changes
they decided last year. They get to continue to do that.
But anybody that has bought land but after the fourth
of December or found trees had them before and didn't
have the land after the fourth of December, it will
(04:28):
not be able to plant trees to enter the missions
trading scale. But farmers will be able to make choices themselves.
They'll be able to plant up the twenty five percent
of their own land if they want to. And on
luck sixth land, we're going to have a small quota
to allow some choice for farmers and other landowners, but
the wholesale conversions will stop because the law will say
it's not possible. But much of the planting you see
this season is based on decisions we're making a couple
(04:49):
of years.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, okay, And it's the blanket planting that irks people,
Like if a farmer wants to plant twenty five percent
of his farm and trees, good luck to them or her.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's right, that's right. So what you were seeing is
people speculating on the carbon price of the future and
then it would go up, not on whether you can
get money out us you know, how to meet more
dairy and my biggest concern was the effect that was
having upon communities but also our exports. If you think
about it right, land prices don't go down in New Zealand.
You could see a situation where our best dairy land
(05:20):
was purchased and trees put on it because somebody thinks
the carbon price will be a lot more worth a
lot more than milk in the future. And that would
just be absolute madness. And so this is a big
deal for our national government to put restrictions like this
on private property rights. Except if you want to plant
trees all over your farm, you can do so. You
just can't put into the emissions trading scheme, so that
(05:41):
carbon price won't drive land decisions. What will drive land
due decisions is what's best for that land, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Just just to finish on it riggs to me. This
whole thing of the Emperor's new clothes, Todd maclay and
I worry and I wonder it may not be a
problem for me twenty years down the track, but for
future generations. We're just setting ourselves up to fail with
the carbon forestry we already have, and I'm not talking
about production forestry here. I'm talking about spray and walk
(06:12):
away because anecdotally, once again I'm hearing there's lots of that.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, look, I agree, I'm not responsible for these dyes.
But as a forestry minister, I think it's mad We
can plant trees and leave them forever and we don't
even get commercial value out of them by putting them
for a sawmill or sending them on a ship overseas.
So I'm not a big fan of that. However, there
is a role for that to play in some situations
with our farmers and others around the country that want
(06:37):
to plant matters and other sorts of trees and leave them.
We're doing quite a bit of work to recognize those
and make it easier. But look, I can't disagree with you, Jamie.
The idea that we're going to plant a pine try
somewhere and leave it forever of the name of climate
change because it's a bit more convenient or easier for
a government and we don't even create jobs for it
is madness. And that's a really big part of why
we're putting this band on changing farms into forest Place
(07:00):
over the next two months.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Todd McLeay, Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You're welcome
But let's kick it off with the Minister of Agriculture
and Trade who was one of the keynotes speakers at
the PINS summit, Todd McLay. Good to have you on
the show. Todd couldn't catch up with you at the
awards dinner because you had to go back to Wellington
because on Tuesday evening the farm to Forest ban passed
(00:20):
its first reading unanimously, I think, and this is off
the back of excuse me sorry, and this was off
the back of every party in the House voting to
support it. Did I get my evening's right? Was it
Tuesday or Wednesday evening?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
It was, Hey, Jamie, good evening. Yes, it was Tuesday evening.
You're right and that's right. So the first step toward
stopping wholesale farmer fist conversion planting of plying trees on
our best food producing land going to ets has happened.
It started. We're going to get this in law by
October this year. But it's backdated to when the Prime
(00:58):
Minister and I made the announcement down in Central Otago
or Southland on the fourth of December last year. And
it is very very well put together. It's very very
strict and as I hear a few people around the
place wondering if somebody's gone out and bought trees thinking
they can plant. You know, after that date, they've got
to be very careful. They're going to lose.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Okay, Todd, Well, why am I hearing anecdotally that there's
still a lot of blanket farm to forestry conversions happening.
People are rauting the rules?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
No, well, so in essence, the announcements made from the
fourth of December, that's when it will take effect. Any
planting you're seeing at the moment is a decision that
was made more than a year ago. So if you think, Jamie,
you went out the end the last year for that
and brought some land, it normally takes about a season
to two seasons before you're able to plant. So there's
still going to be some purchases of conversions that are
(01:51):
in the system going all the way through. We're put
in transitional means. As they say, if somebody was in
the process before that date, you know, we're a center
right government were not taking value off them based upon
their decision at the time. But anybody out there that
thinks from the fourth of December onwards are smarter than
the law is going to lose some money because we
have put this together to achieve what we need to
(02:13):
stop wholesale conversion of our best food producing land and
going into trees.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And when will this finally get into legislation. It's obviously
past its first reading this week.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, so we're putting it through very quickly. I sent
it off to the Environment Committee. It will be out
for consultation and they've got seven weeks to work through
it and turn it around. We're given the ability to
virtually work every hour of the day between now and then.
I do expect there'll be a lot of submissions on
both sides around the law. They'll get it back to
us and I think it's by the thirteenth of August,
(02:48):
and then we will put it through the raining stages
during the month of August, so we can get some
of the rules and the regulations in place in September
and it will take effect during October, and so we
move very very quickly. The point of this is it's
very well signaled. I campaigned on this policy, it came
through the coalition agreement, and then we've taken a lot
of time to get the detail rights and there aren't
(03:09):
any you know, any consequences that are not foreseen. There
is a lot of detail in there, but fundamentally it
is as simple as us. New Zealand makes money exporting
around the world, and we do so by producing food
and we're wholesale conversion the farms takes place with these
rural schools. We lose rural communities with these rural families
(03:30):
and rural businesses. There's a role for farshy to play,
a very important one in New Zealand, but not at
the expense or particularly sheep and beeflanned. And so I'm
pretty pleased, surprised, but very pleased that there was unanimous
support in Parliament for this. I think some of the
opposition parties sort of had pre qualifications and we'll find
ways to wriggle out. But I say to the Labor Party,
(03:51):
if you actually pack farmers, vote for this bill and
then get on board with some other stuff I'm doing.
Because it's good for all of New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I've got to take and Todd says B. S. Todd.
A rampant forestry conversions still going on on Hawks Bay.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, but largely that's nothing to do with something that
happened from the fourth of December onwards, and just as
you know, there'll be farmers that want to make changes
they decided last year. They get to continue to do that.
But anybody that has bought land but after the fourth
of December or found trees had them before and didn't
have the land after the fourth of December, it will
(04:28):
not be able to plant trees to enter the missions
trading scale. But farmers will be able to make choices themselves.
They'll be able to plant up the twenty five percent
of their own land if they want to. And on
luck sixth land, we're going to have a small quota
to allow some choice for farmers and other landowners, but
the wholesale conversions will stop because the law will say
it's not possible. But much of the planting you see
this season is based on decisions we're making a couple
(04:49):
of years.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, okay, And it's the blanket planting that irks people,
Like if a farmer wants to plant twenty five percent
of his farm and trees, good luck to them or her.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's right, that's right. So what you were seeing is
people speculating on the carbon price of the future and
then it would go up, not on whether you can
get money out us you know, how to meet more
dairy and my biggest concern was the effect that was
having upon communities but also our exports. If you think
about it right, land prices don't go down in New Zealand.
You could see a situation where our best dairy land
(05:20):
was purchased and trees put on it because somebody thinks
the carbon price will be a lot more worth a
lot more than milk in the future. And that would
just be absolute madness. And so this is a big
deal for our national government to put restrictions like this
on private property rights. Except if you want to plant
trees all over your farm, you can do so. You
just can't put into the emissions trading scheme, so that
(05:41):
carbon price won't drive land decisions. What will drive land
due decisions is what's best for that land, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Just just to finish on it riggs to me. This
whole thing of the Emperor's new clothes, Todd maclay and
I worry and I wonder it may not be a
problem for me twenty years down the track, but for
future generations. We're just setting ourselves up to fail with
the carbon forestry we already have, and I'm not talking
about production forestry here. I'm talking about spray and walk
(06:12):
away because anecdotally, once again I'm hearing there's lots of that.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, look, I agree, I'm not responsible for these dyes.
But as a forestry minister, I think it's mad We
can plant trees and leave them forever and we don't
even get commercial value out of them by putting them
for a sawmill or sending them on a ship overseas.
So I'm not a big fan of that. However, there
is a role for that to play in some situations
with our farmers and others around the country that want
(06:37):
to plant matters and other sorts of trees and leave them.
We're doing quite a bit of work to recognize those
and make it easier. But look, I can't disagree with you, Jamie.
The idea that we're going to plant a pine try
somewhere and leave it forever of the name of climate
change because it's a bit more convenient or easier for
a government and we don't even create jobs for it
is madness. And that's a really big part of why
we're putting this band on changing farms into forest Place
(07:00):
over the next two months.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Todd McLeay, Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You're welcome
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