May 26, 2026 • 45 mins
Before Hardy was known as the breakout artist who pushed country music into hard rock territory, he was a self-proclaimed redneck from Philadelphia, Mississippi who studied songwriting at Middle Tennessee State University. Since moving to Nashville in 2013, he's written 22 number ones for artists like Morgan Wallen, Blake Shelton, and Dierks Bentley.
In 2018, with the encouragement of producer Joey Moi and his label Big Loud, Hardy started writing songs for himself — and it paid off. He's now a five-time ACM Award winner and two-time CMA Award winner, joining the upper echelon of Big Loud artists that Moi has helped build, alongside Morgan Wallen and Florida Georgia Line.
On today's episode, Leah Rose talks to Hardy about the craft of writing a song that sticks — including what he's learned from studying artists like Eminem. They also get into how AI is showing up in Nashville's writer's rooms, and why Hardy thinks bro country isn't going anywhere.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Hardy HERE.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Before Hardy was known as the breakout artist who pushed
country music into hard rock territory, he was a self
proclaimed redneck from Philadelphia, Mississippi, who studied songwriting at Middle
Tennessee State University. Since moving to Nashville in twenty thirteen,
he's written sixteen number ones for artists like Morgan Wallend,
Blake Shelton, and Dirk Spentley. In twenty eighteen, with the
(00:40):
encouragement of producer Joey Moy and his label Big Loud,
Hardy started writing songs for himself and it paid off.
He's now a five time ACM Award winner and a
two time CMA Award winner, joining the upper echelon of
Big Loud artists that Moy has helped build, alongside Morgan
Wallan and Florida Georgia Line. Today's episode, Leo Rose talks
(01:00):
to Hardy about the craft of writing a song that sticks,
including what he's learned from studying artists like Eminem. They
also get into how AI is showing up in Nashville
rooms and why Hardy thinks bro country isn't going anywhere
anytime soon. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.
(01:25):
Here's Leo Rhodes with Hardy. Head over to YouTube dot
com slash Broken Record Podcast if you want to see
the video.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Brad Paisley has the uh well I'm gonna miss her,
you know the song about uh. She says if you know,
it's like if if you if you go fishing today,
we're over, and then he just says I'm gonna miss her.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm like, that's that's like some shit I would do,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Especially as and so I started that's when I started
getting into country. It was just when it kind of started,
just the lyrics got a little more clever and it
just appealed to like people that grew up country.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
So is the bro country era? Like that's over?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
So I I you know, I'm glad you asked. I
have not commented on this yet.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I know you studied songwriting at school for a period
of time. But how did you how do you go
from just being like a regular like high school kid
to like making the move to Nashville, Like, how do
you even know that any of this existed?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Well, so, my sister moved to Nashville before I did.
She's a year and a half older than me. She
was two grades above me. She was a singer. She
was really talented, still is a really talented singer, and
you know, she she moved to town and I was
in like junior college and just didn't know what I
(02:45):
wanted to do. And at the same time, I had
kind of gotten you know, decent at guitar and had
written a couple songs I mean that literally is it,
and was sending them to her. You know, I was
recording them on back then. I don't even know what
I recorded it on. It was before iPhones, and.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
But I sent them to her and she basically hit
me up. One day.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I was just like, hey, you know, there's a whole
industry here, like the songwriting, the publishing industry, where you
get people get paid to write songs, and most of
the songs you hear on the radio aren't written by
that artist, or at least it was written by like
some normal guys and girls that just go to the
grocery store every day.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And you know, I didn't listen to country music growing up.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I grew up in a small town, and I grew
up hunting and fishing and doing all the stuff. But
I didn't listen to country music because it didn't appeal
to me at all. There was nothing I got out
of it until like Eric Church and some of these
guys that started kind of singing about being a good
old boy came along, and then I was like, Okay,
I do this stuff, so I resonate with it. But
I learned more about songwriting by locking myself in a
room for four years and just listening to country music
(03:43):
and trying to more or less replicate that in.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
My own way than I did in school.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I don't know, I feel like I got very lucky
and I just made a snap decision and I just
sort of wound up here.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I mean I worked really hard.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You know, with once I signed a publishing deal and
all that, and really never gave up and never thought
about giving up and all that good stuff. But I
just I made such a snap decision and it just which,
you know, that's I just felt like it was just
meant to be.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I also saw you that used to be really into
like new metal, like you went through a phase I
guess when you were a teenager.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Still in it. You're still in it of course, all
this stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
I was so happy for you that you did a
song with fred Durst. I was like, that must have
been so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It was.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It was a moment where they're like, you know, there's
a lot of highs and there's a lot of wow.
I can't believe I met this person or I wrote
a song for this person, or what I'm doing a
song with this person.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
But man, the Fred one was different.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
And I was like in Italy at the time, and
my at the time, a guy that was working at
my label. We had reached out to him, but I
had no connection to him other than the guy that
was working in my label.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
He texted me just said, hey, if you get a.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Phone call today from like whatever number, like answer it,
It's gonna be Fred Durst. And I was like what
and so I it was like one of the coolest
things ever.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean, it was such a huge Lambiscuit fan. I
still am. I love the stuff they's put out to
this day. But yeah, all that stuff, I mean that
really that was.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I was new metal was when I was like age
nine to like, you know, fourteen, So those are very
very absorbing music years.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
For me, and so I took in a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
It just it was, man, something about like all that
stuff Lincoln Park. I mean I had I begged my
parents for the Hybrid Theory record when I was like
ten years old, and the guy gave it to me,
and and uh, it just it changed my life.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I mean I was obsessed with that stuff. I still am.
I love it. I love new metal so much.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
That's so cool. I hear very few people like people
like to shit on new metal, but I love that
you're into it.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean, you can shit on it all you want.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But like, I know for a fact that both Lincoln
Park and lit Biscuit at separate times were the biggest
bands in the world.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, System of a Down, same thing.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
They're kind, they're I guess they're new metal ish, they're
they're just their own thing. They're huge, But yeah, they're
that that era of rock and roll, aside from like
a little bit after that with like Nickelback and Three
Doors Down, that was like the last era of bands
that were just absolutely worldwide, gigantic, so you can shop
(06:19):
on it all your own, but that shit was worldwide
and they crushed it. So you know, a lot more
people liked it than didn't.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
What about metal, Like, were you into like Slipknot. Were
you into like more like harder metal stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, I love my Suga a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Oh wow, I didn't get into Slipknot as much until
I was older. I know that was kind of happening
at the same time, but I just I wasn't into
slip Knot quite as much. But let's see, high school
like a kid made me a burnt set. I was
more like in the post hardcore era or like you know,
(07:01):
like people call it death core early like a day
to remember, like like August Burns.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Red and I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
There's so many and I rode that way for for
quite some time, and I still listen to a lot
of stuff now.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I love Spirit Box.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I think it's dope. I like Falling in Reverse. I
if another one that people like to shit on, but
I think it's like the fresh freshest ship that's been
come out in a long time.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
To Sleep Token, oh, I don't know, Sleep Token, Oh
my god, you have to listen to Sleep Talking so sick.
They are so sick, the huge.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Like genre blenders, but they're really cool. But yeah, I
love all that stuff. If it grooves like I can't
listen to I'm not a big like black metal or
just nothing that really ever grooves.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's why I love Michelle so much is their rifts.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Were so like clean and and just groovy, and I
just I love that kind.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Of Yeah, were you kind of like an outcast in
high school? Like what was your what were and what
were you dressing? Like, like did you have like the
spikey Lincoln Park hair?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
No, I was. I was kind of a regular Southern boy.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
People in high school like to tell me that, uh
that I was a little bit differ friend and I
was kind of a rocker kid, and I guess maybe
I was, But no, I just music was ironically kind
of a big Like it was big in my hometown,
and like people loved music and all different kinds and
there was a little bit of a scene. You know.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
There was a couple of seen kids and metal kids
that that I went to high school with.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But they were also like they were cool, you know,
and and uh are just you know, they were popular,
they had friends.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
It was just it was sort of different. But no,
I was. I felt like I belonged just right where
I was and had a good I.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Mean, I was in I was in like FFA and shit,
I was I was a country kid.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I just, uh wait, that's Farmers future Farmers of America.
It's my favorite class school.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Most of my close buddies though, were like, bro, turn
the ship off when I would play stuff like that.
But I just you know, I loved it, and I
have I had my metal buddies, and I had my
my hunting buddies and you know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
How old are you when you're allowed to start hunting?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Seven?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Maybe I have an eight year old right now.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I'm like, oh no, I think I said my first
deer when I was seven hunting by myself.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I think I was like twelve. Wow. Obviously like my you.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Know, I would go with my dad and we would
go separate ways or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But but yeah, a really really young age. It's it's
a big part of my family.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
The men in my specifically, we all were in still
are big deer hunters.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yep. So you talked a little bit about the country
that was popular when you were growing up and how
you didn't identify with it. I guess was that like
what was that era? Like how would you classify the
music like it was nineties?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, late nineties, early two thousands. It was a lot
of like honky tongue music. I mean, I grew up
in a dry county. I didn't drink. I wasn't I
didn't start drinking early, you know what I mean. I'd
start drinking like or having had my first few beers.
I guess you would say, like eighteen nineteen years old,
like most most kids, you know, maybe twenty, but.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
You're hunting at seven.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, seven. But I didn't start drinking until I was
you know, Yeah. It just didn't appeal to me there.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I'd never been in a bar, you know, And and
it was either that or it was very It was
like a lot of adult It appealed more to adults
back then. I feel like the subject matter and and
uh huh, I just didn't. It just didn't resonate with me,
you know, Brooks and Done who I now go back
and I'm like, this music is awesome. But a sixteen
year old kid, you know, I don't know anything about
boot Scoot and Boy. I've never I've never swing danced
(10:36):
or whatever that whatever that song is about.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I don't know. It just it was it just did
not appeal to me at all. It was just very
adult and not until Brad.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Paisley has the uh I'm gonna miss her, you know
the song about uh. She says if you know, it's
like if if you if you go fishing today were
over and then he just says, I'm gonna miss her.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I'm like, that's.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's like some ship I would do, you know what
I mean, especially as and so I started that's when
I started getting into the country.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
It was just when it kind of started to just.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
The lyrics got a little more clar and it just
appealed to like people that grew up country.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I feel like that was not a thing in the nineties.
There wasn't a lot.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Of country boy can survive type stuff in the nineties.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, that makes sense when you could see yourself in
the music. Yeah, I heard you talking about like songwriting
now in Nashville has gotten very industrialized.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I guess what I meant by that more than anything
is it's just you don't nobody sits around and withou
lights candles and says kumbai and talks about what they
what they've you know, what they've been through and what
that I mean that that does happen, It's happened to
me and it's I've written those kinds of songs and
they've been recorded and everything, but but uh, you know,
really it's just you you sit down that day and
(11:51):
you try to write a hit or just the best
song in the room, and it's just it's kind of
the same thing over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And that's and that's okay. It's just it's it's a job.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It's literally like any other job where you know, you
kind of just do somewhat of the same thing every day,
and uh, that's all I mean. You know, there's there's
all kinds of cool, little magic moments throughout town. And
you know, like I wrote a song that Cody Johnson
recorded called Jesus Loves You. It's not what you think
if you go listen to it, but about a guy
that is talking to a guy in jail because the
(12:20):
guy in jail broke into this guy's house and stuff
like that. Like a buddy of mine came in with
that exact story the next day because somebody had broken
into his house and anyway, so like you know, stuff
like that, like it does happen, but it's it's just
not as common as uh as just sitting sitting down
and just trying to write a good song every day.
And in that way, I think it's industrialized for sure.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Got you. Yeah, So are you still enjoying it? Are
you still enjoying writing songs?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I love it so much.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It's my I enjoy it more than any part of
my career. I enjoy it all, but I enjoy it
more than any part of my career.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I mean, that feels like pretty amazing because you've obviously
done it for so long. You're almost like a decade.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
In right, professionally twelve years in.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yeah. Yeah, the fact that you still love it is
pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
That.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I mean, I like to consider myself a decent singer
and a pretty good performer, but I think that the
reason that I was put on this earth was to
write songs. There's just just something that happens to me
in a songwriting room that, like, I can be having
the worst day, I could be having like a mental
breakdown or anxiety or whatever it is, and the second
we get on a song and start digging into a
(13:30):
lyric or whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean, everything in the world just goes away.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
And that's that is that it is my zen moment,
especially professionally. It's like the one time that I just
sort of feel like I'm just in a different place
and it's just such a cool thing.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I love it so much.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Have you ever tried to analyze what it is about
the process that you love so much? Like, is it
like the puzzle part of it? Is it the like
clever side of it?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
A lot? I think all of it, I think, or
at least those two things. You kind of nailed it.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I mean it is very much, especially with country, like
every line has a place like you're not there's you know,
somewhat of rule, like you don't really you're not supposed
to contradict yourself, like don't say anything that you said
before in the song within the song. You know, there's
all these different kind of caveats or rules or whatever, and.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I just love and so in that way, it's like
a puzzle.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's like, well, what do we say in the second
verse that we haven't said in the first verse, and
like how does that course sort of change the course?
But you get back to the chorus in the same
way and all that. The puzzle is like really my
favorite part. But lyric more than anything, like a lyric,
the lyrics more than the melody and the music and
all that.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
That's that's where I get off. I love that stuff.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Is it okay in the room when you're in the
room with people and you're writing, Is it okay to
use AI?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Like?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Is it okay to like put something in chat gpt
and be like can you like I do it.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
All the time with with with uh you get Look,
here's the thing. Any Nashville songwriter would be lying if
they didn't say that they didn't go to write either
like rhyme zone dot com or like a rhyming.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Dictionary website thing.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And so if I'm stuck and I'm like, hey, can
you give me a line for whatever that is in
the vein of like you know, being outside in the woods,
I'm just looking at my computer back screen, which is
like you know the woods, and you know, half the time,
like I would never chat chat GPT doesn't have a soul,
so like it doesn't a I would never ask it.
(15:30):
But it doesn't get like the inner soul that produces
like the lyric that will make somebody cry, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, So that all just comes from being a.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Human, but with like rhymes and just sort of stuff,
really simple stuff I've used it before for sure.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yeah, I feel like it's, if anything, it's like a
good jumping off point.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Sure, I mean it's not going I love that. You
might as well be a part of it.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
So when you locked yourself in the room, what did
you figure out about country? Like what was the formula?
Did you crack the formula or did you were you
like trying to figure out themes that like resonated with
big audiences or were you trying to think more about
like verse, chorus bridge, that kind of thing, like the
mechanics of the song.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, more more of the mechanics. You know.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I didn't really get into I still, I swear to
this day, not until like you're at you're deep in
the middle of.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
A song, do you think, like, oh man, okay, this
is a hit.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Like what if we do a moment right here where
it's like booom crowd moment, you know, like that's kind
of that comes way later, I feel in the process,
at least for me, it did. So for me, I
was just figuring out the structure and it's just you know,
it's like you either go verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus,
or you go verse chorus, verse, chorus, solo, chorus, or
(16:44):
you start with a chorus and then you do a
verse and then a chorus and then a solo and
then a bridge. You know, there's there's like four or
five different formulas, and I don't know, I just kind
of felt like I learned those types of things.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And you know, a big one for me was paying attention.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I was a big M and M fan, still am,
but figuring out how to phrase lines putting emphasis on
the right vowels so that there is a uh is
it assonance? And I think it's assonance is the one
that like puts the emphasis on the vowels And so
if if if, like I studied that a lot, like,
(17:20):
because there's certain ways you can phrase a line that said,
and you can phrase a line two different ways and
make them sound one sounds like a hit and one
doesn't sound like a hit. And it's all about where
you put the emphasis on certain like parts of the word.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And I wish that I could just pull one out
of my ass and do it right now.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Dude, wait, can you think of one from your own
catalog or maybe something from Eminem, like an Eminem song
where he does Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Let me think really quick.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Uh oh my god, that's this is gonna kill me now,
because like you can't do it now.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
So if you put emphasis on a word in a sentence,
it'll make it sound more like a hit. Is that
what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, like if you if you were gonna say like like.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Think of like a Morgan Wallin's or some like big like.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Okay, all right, So the second verse of more than
my Hometown, I ain't the runaway kind.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I can't change that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
My heart's stuck in these streets like the train tracks,
city sky ain't the same black?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Ain't that a map dot? Shame?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And to think that chorus I Love you More, it's
just like finding those vowels that sound the same and
making sure that you sing them the exact same every
single time, so that it just sounds like a bar.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It sounds like an eminem song, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
It sounds very hip hoppy.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, that's so cool. I studied that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
There's a guy he's still around and he's written so
many hits. But Casey Bethard, I'm not gonna call him
old man. I'm gonna run into him and be like, boy,
you call me old man, but he it's like, man,
I want to I'm always wanted to ask him, like, dude,
who did you listen to to to develop your internal
rhyme scheme? Because he if you go back, I mean,
you look at all the songs he's written, but he's
(19:03):
just got He had such a cool way of finding
those internal rhymes because they're kind of sometimes they can
be hidden in a line, you know, and the right
person sings it the right way and you're like, oh,
that sounds awesome. But he he, I really learned from him.
And Rodney Clausen was another one. There's a second verse
or first verse of that. Uh. Actually, I don't even
know if Rodney wrote this song. But around here at
(19:24):
g L, I'm gonna pick her up at six.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I hope she's gonna wear the geens with the tear
that her mama never fixed. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
It's just finding all the little internal internal rhymes in
there that makes a song better.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It always makes a song better.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I say all the time, if you if you when
you're writing a song and it's like a tongue twister.
Sometimes people are like, ah, that's kind of hard to sing,
and I'm like no, because when you finally spit it out,
it's gonna sound awesome, like it's you know when it's
hard to say that means it's it's it's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You just have to learn it, you know.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah. I feel like with the song radio song, you're
writing about the thing, like you're commenting on things and
getting really clever with like the fourth wa yes, yeah, yes,
did you start doing that like out of boredom? Like
were you trying to make a statement like how like
where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I just always liked songs about songs or like they
call it meta to you know, like it's yes, like uh,
and for radio songs specifically, I just I've there's a
few songs that have done that in history that I
loved and I wanted my own version of that. There
was a song, you know a lot of people don't know,
the Hey Ya buy outcast is about how people these
(20:36):
days don't stay together anymore. They just get married and
then they'll just get divorced. And that song is like
my baby don't mess around because she loves me so
and this I know for sure, Like thank God for
mom and dad for sticking to together because we don't
know how, and then and the bridge, he's like, y'all.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Don't want to hear me, you just want to dance. Hey, y'all,
Like this.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Song is, yes, it's like really cool, but the chorus
is just like you.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Know, man, but whatever, y'all don't care. Here's a chorus.
And that's kind of where I just I.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Wanted to do something like that with with radio song.
And by no means was I fed up. I mean
I wrote that in the peak of my well, I
like to say, my first peek in my songwriting career.
So like my relationship with radio was great and I'm
like praising God every day for the radio, so you know,
and most of the radio people that I've come in
contact with, they love it and they get the cheekiness
(21:22):
of it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And when I play it live, yeah, I'll if the
radio people.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Are in the room, I'll give him a wink and
kind of make a big smile like I'm never really
angry about it. I just I just wanted to write
a song about a song. And that's not the first
time I've done it, but I enjoy doing it sometimes.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, No, that's fun and it makes sense when like
knowing that you admire people like Eminem. He commented a
lot on the state of like the music business and
just pop culture in general.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Fleewood Matt kind of did it with rumors, but it
was a little bit more cryptic. But like Eminem was
the first person also to just completely open up his
actual life to the world, and so it was like
listening to reality music, you know what I mean. Yeah,
And I think, you know, I don't ever, I don't
have the balls to do that. I don't want to
air out which I don't have a whole lot of laundry,
but I don't want to air out my laundry to
the world.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But he you know, I've always admired him for that
because that was really brave of him to do that,
and it worked.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
People became invested in like his story, you know, and
it just it totally worked, and I think that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
And then he had like eight Mile and then that's
even like taking it further. Yeah. And then bro Country.
I want to ask you about that song too, So
is the bro Country era? Like that's over?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Okay, So I you know, I'm glad you asked.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I have not commented on this yet, Okay, me and
Arn came up with that idea together at at Morgan
wallin Show of All Things, we were opening for him like.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Three and a half to four years ago.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I feel like that concept completely, like I'm I'm like
owning up to this, but I feel like the concept
of bro country the song is kind of out the
window because I now feel like in the next few
years some of that is going to come back. And
I'm just being completely honest. You know, when we wrote it,
(23:04):
it was like, man, there's all these new people that
are coming in and they're you know, it was very
it was very fresh off of like a really potent
bro country era. But even just four or five and
now almost maybe six years later, you know, there there's
a guy. There's a guy kid right now named Cody Loadin.
He's doing this like broke. He's got a song called
a Buckle Up and it's just it's just earwormy, like
(23:27):
the debt the Muse. The lyrics aren't super super deep,
but they're so well written, and it's just it's that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
It's just like, don't know what we're gonna do tonight,
but baby buckle Up. But it just it sounds good,
you know.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I saw a girl, Lauren Watkins make a video a
while back and she was like, I'm just gonna say
I miss bro Country. Uh, And she was like, I
want She didn't use word objectified, but she was like,
I want to be called hot.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I want people to think I look hot with my
legs swinging off tailgate. I miss it. Bring it back.
And I was like, man, you know that's right.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
And I honestly believe that girls that grew up in
that era listening to that kind of miss that a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And Morgan Morgan will do it like Morgan.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Does it, and but he's kind of the only guy
that sort of can still get away with it. But
all that to be said, I think it's going to
come back in the next ten years. I think it's
going to come back, and I just I'm here for it.
So sorry, bro Country. Broke Country was was It wasn't
a bad idea, but I think it was a short
lived thought.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yep, we'll be back with more from Hardy after the break.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I heard you say in a different interview that you
were talking about how if you have a number one hit.
I think it was if you have like a number
one song on the radio, you get like as a songwriter,
you get like two hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, I don't know, take yeah, give or take.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
And I was just curious, like as a range, like,
how does being a songwriter compare to being an artist
who's touring, who's like playing stadiums monitor earl. But yeah,
just like range wise, like like.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Touring makes way more money if you're killing it.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
But something that I learned recently, and I'll be somewhat
cryptic here, but like if you do have a string
of hits as a songwriter, you have the ability to
sell your catalog and you don't get that back, you know,
so you kind of want to make sure that most
of the stream has run out, your revenue stream from
(25:27):
the songs that you're selling has run out. But if
you have enough hits and you sell a catalog as
a songwriter, you can make a shit ton of money.
And it kind of will put in perspective like touring
versus writing, if that makes sense, right, because if you're
like a well, if you're a stadium act, that's like
a different level of money and that's not I'm I'm
(25:50):
like an amphitheater act at best, but.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It is really good.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
But you know, you would have to be really crushing
it as a songwriter to kind of get close to
like a somebody that's crushing it touring, to be honest.
But again, yeah, the catalog sale kind of makes up
for that on the back end a little bit because
that's a really that's like you're super ball as a
songwriter too, is you want to be able to do
that one Day's that creates that's a different type of
like send your grandkids to.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
College, totally generational wealth. Yeah, so how do you know
when you said, like when it's run its course? Like,
how do you know when that time is?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I mean, if you have a business manager, they can
kind of keep an eye on it, but you just
like you get you get a statement from your pro quarterly,
the people that pay you, and you could just see,
you know, like I can go pull my last statement
up and you know obviously like I wrote a Blake
Shelton song called God's Country and like that's that was
(26:47):
one of my biggest hits.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And and like at its.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Peak it was making this much and you know I
can just see that, like you can just sort of
tell when it sort of dwindles down to around this,
maybe a very lower five five figure number for a
year or so at a time, and then you know,
basically a company is willing to buy that song for
more than what that fight what fivegers quarterly would make
in your lifetime.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
So you're kind of taking the money and run, but.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Running, yeah, because like it's it's still an investment for
other companies because over one hundred years it's gonna or
seventy years, it's gonna make more than what they paid
you for it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But you're like, you know, again, make the money and
run kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
But then something like a Stranger Things could license a song.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Because because they could, you could get like an eight
figure deal off of something crazy and then Sony or
you know, somebody like that owns it now and that happens.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You know, like you just never know, Like you never know.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
A song that I sold could could be sampled and
be the biggest like Swedish dance song in the world
and make a ton of money, and you know, but
that's just that's kind of the risk that you take
when you sell a catalog, So you just never know.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I was curious about the way that you sequence an
album with country country you like with the song bottom Land,
Why did you put that all the way at the
end of the album? Like, how do you think about
the sequencing?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I don't remember that since that that record had like
twenty songs on it, I fel that was harder for
me to curate or or to to make the list
for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So I can't really.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Give an answer as to why more towards the end,
to be honest with you, but I will say I do.
I'm heavily involved, if not one responsible for every track
order of every record that I've done.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, It's just you know, I know that.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
People don't listen to albums front to back anymore, but
I feel like in that way, I'm kind of an
old soul, and it's like I've always loved albums and
like a body of work, and I think that, you know,
for people that create music to make a body of work,
I guess want it to be listened to front to back.
And so I definitely will look at the list of
(29:02):
songs and try to like pull you emotionally all over
the place by the end, so that there's nothing that
seems too monoton or or too repetitive.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On the record if that makes it Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
You mentioned that it had a really long track list,
Like why not just put half of those out and
save the other half for a future release.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I just I don't. I don't operate like that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Like I this this record was very intentionally country and
and yeah it was. It was kind of a retaliation
to me leaving the country space for a year and
going into the rock space because my last record was
called Quit and we we marketed that as a rock record.
So this was sort of almost I didn't treat the
music sarcastically, but like it was like a here's your
(29:46):
here's a big ass country record for everybody to enjoy.
And uh, and that it's just it's where my head space.
That's where I was, like, you know, in my headspace,
and and uh, I like I said, I want to
move on, and like I have a different project already
in mind for like the next thing.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
And so no, I know you do. I want to
hear about it.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
What is it? Is?
Speaker 4 (30:07):
It way different?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It's yes, a little bit of the same, a little
bit different.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's just it's a I'm getting back to like a
concept kind of like the mocking bird and the Crow
which was my second album, which I still think is
kind of my flagship record.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So far, right because it's got the country and the
rock together.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
It's sick if somebody was like, who's hardy, you know,
like what what should I listen to? Like, that's that's
what the reference probably is. But no, I mean, I
have I have a concept. I'll probably have my first
I'm gonna have like an eight minute song on the record,
which I'm stoked about that kind of talks about the concept.
And it's just I'm just trying to continue to sort
(30:48):
of push boundaries and just keep people on their.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Toes and make people just be like what the fuck?
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And that's just is it like a different genre of music,
like a totally different genre or is it like just
new metal and country.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
A little bit of this little bit of that.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Is it like trap or something?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
No, no, no, no, it's not like that.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It's it's all Look, it's all under the umbrella of
like me and my music.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
But it's just it's it's more it's less like a
genre changing and more of like a theme.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It's more of like, uh, a concept, yeah, like a
concept or it's just it's got more of a theme,
an intentional theme to the structure of the album. I'm
still probably a year out from a record coming out,
hopefully more because I need some time to really I
want this one to really count, because I've always believed too,
(31:41):
Like you know, my first record was a rock and
it did well, but then the Mocky Bird and the
Crow did really well, and then Quit didn't do quite
as good as Marckybird and the Crow, and then Country
Country did a little bit better than Quit, but.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Not as good as Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
But I'm a firm believer that that just because you
had records that followed a record that didn't do as
good doesn't mean that you're done making your best record.
Pretty Hate Machine was nine Inch Nails as first record,
and I think that came out in like eighty nine
or nine or something, and that was like their biggest
record for a long time. And then With Teeth came
out like seventeen years later, and that is like the
(32:17):
record that everybody knows nine inch Nails by, and I'm like, man,
if they can do that, I feel like I can
do that. I just have to keep trusting myself and
know that there's still something greater out there to explore.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Do you feel like you make the music for you
or do you make it for the audience.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think I make it for me. I've thought about
this a lot.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I just want to make stuff that's like I would
think is cool, you know, like that I would listen to.
I think I definitely think like when I get something
really great, I'm like, my fans were gonna love this,
but I don't. I'm not making anything for anyone outside
of my fan base to be impressed with. Like, I
just want, like I'm not like, man, I need more
(32:59):
metal fans, or I need more traditional country fans, or
I need to do like I just don't operate like that.
So but mostly I just I want to make shit
that I just think sounds cool, and like me and
buddies all just think is cool, you know, And and yeah,
that's just sort of the starting point, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, Well, let's break and we'll be back with Hardy.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Have you had to deal with any friends or any
collaborators who want to kind of be like where you're at,
Like any fellow songwriters people you work with that also
want to be maybe artists themselves, but for whatever reason,
can't make that transition or have tried and haven't found success. Yeah,
have you had to deal with that? Like has that
hard for you being someone who has crossed over and
(33:46):
found success?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
You know, I'm not not necessarily everybody that. Like, Like,
my best friend is his name is Hunter Phelps, and
he he did the artist thing for a while and
just never he he did really well, but he never
like never signed a deal, never had a radio single
or anything like that. And and he you know, so
(34:10):
he kind of hung it up, or at least, you know,
full time hung it up. And then he has like
fifteen number ones under his belt as a writer now,
so like most people have parlor or transitioned into something
really great. Another friend of mine, Jordan Brooker. Jordan was
a songwriter and he was one of the kind of
guys that that and he would he would be fine
with me saying this sort of got like he sort
of went into a corner and was like, I don't know,
(34:32):
I kind of want to.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Go do like my own rock thing.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And we were all like, bro, we're all writing country
songs like come with Us, and so I feel like
he kind of got left behind a little bit. And
then like ten years later, I end up signing his
rock band to a record label and he's killing it
and he's making like awesome music.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
So every I feel like everybody that.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
That I felt like has not had success has turned
whatever that into something else that's been really great.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So that's really special.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Yeah, that's awesome. Why do you think that it worked
out so well for you when there's like, I don't
know if there's so many people have you know, I'm
sure a ton of people moved to Nashville to try
and do the exact same thing, but you made it. Like,
what do you think the difference is? Like do you
think it's innate talent? Do you think you just are
you work harder, you met the like the right people, Like,
(35:19):
what is it?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I think it's just all of it luck. I think
it's all of it together.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
But I think the driving force for me is just
being a decent person.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And just treating people right and being polite.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
And everybody has their moments, like you know, and it
sucks when you do have a bad moment with a
fan or with somebody, or somebody sees you kind of
being an ascid But you know what, man, we're all
we all have those days.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
We all have those moments.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
It just sucks to be sort of in the spotlight
or just being kind of caught at the wrong place
at the right or wrong time.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
But you know, talent is.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Fifty one percent of it, luck is ten percent, right
place at the right time is ten percent, and then
the other twenty nine percent or whatever is I really
truly believe, and hard work is in there too. But
it's just being somebody that people want to work with.
Because I can tell you right now I have people
that I write with that are not the best writers
in town. There are people that are more talented than
(36:22):
the people I love working with. That sucks as a
human being, and I don't want to work with that
person period. So, like Pete, just be somebody that people
want to work with, that people.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Want to root for, and and and just a good
hanging pet that people like being.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
You know that you make people feel comfortable being being
around you. I think it. There's so much of that.
I mean, all of the all of the biggest people
in Nashville, the people that I looked up to, like
Blake Shelton, the Luke Bryan, Miranda Lambert, Derk's Bentley have
all been the most kind, easy to be around people,
personable and just normal at their core people.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And I just I truly believe that's why.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
That's what turns people into like a superstar, is that
so many people just love.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Who you are.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
I feel like Lady like that too. She seems so.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Cool, unbelievably normal, Like unbelievably normal.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
She would she hits me up all the time and
she's we our schedules are also crazy, so we haven't
done it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
But she's like, you want to go get some.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Mexican food, you know, And I'm just like, man, it
just sounds like something. You know, she is my buddy,
but just sounds like something one of my guys buddies
would just be like, hey, dude, you know. I mean,
she's so that girl for the amount of success and
stardom that she's experienced, has not changed a single bit.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And I love that so much about her.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Is there anybody that you want to work with on
the new album that you can tell us about, like
any collaborations or any like new metal people, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I'm not really sure. I mean, I love Mike. Mike
Shinoda would be really cool.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Yeah, but he's so cool have you met him?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
No, No, I never met him.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That would be very cool, even I mean I would
do another song with Fred Durst, or even like if
I had, like Wes Borland play like a a part
on something I don't know's there's a million a million people,
I'm sure that would come to mind.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
But I haven't really given it a lot of thought yet.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I've only written I think five or six songs for
this next project, and I've got a long way to go.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
So okay, you have twenty more So with like the
Fred the Fred Dirt back to the Fred Durst song,
like when he did he send you that verse and
then you listen to it and then like did you
work remotely or cause you guys weren't in the same
we weren't.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, I had that hook, I had that chorus. When
we cut it in the studio, we just cut like,
you know whatever. It was sixteen bar verse and I
just sent it to him and he was like, what's
what kind of vibe are you feeling? And I sort
of would send it back and then he was like
what about this? And I'm pretty sure the first thing
he sent back, I was like, that sounds like Fred Durst. Like,
that's that's cool to me, and that's what we went with.
(39:04):
But yeah, unfortunately we didn't get to sit in the
same room together, but it was it was again, like
extremely cool, and you know, he didn't he didn't go silent,
but like he had just had a kid or something.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Kind of right in the middle of it.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
So I didn't hear from him for like a few weeks,
and then I was writing a song with some friends, uh,
and I was wearing a hat to say live laugh
lit biscuit kind.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Of cheesy, and that day he texted out of the blue.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
After like three weeks I'm not hearing from him, he
texted me all like his verses and stuff, and I
was like, oh, that's cool, and I sent him a
selfie wearing the hat and then he was like yo,
he was like who made that hat?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I'm about to go sue him and put that on
our own merch line.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Totally, that's crazy. So do you feel comfortable at that
point since you look up to him so much and
you love him, Like, do you feel comfortable being like, oh, hey,
can you change like the third line or.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah it doesn't definitely, yeah, yeah, I mean in a
creative space, you know, and he's an artist and he
gets that. So I, you know, I don't really remember
the details of that conversation, but one percent if there
was one thing that bothered me. Again, he's a creative,
so he totally gets it. I I feel like he
would totally respect.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
That and and and and come back with.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Whatever was best for the song for sure, which is
so crazy to think about.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, Hey, Fred Durst, I didn't like that on
a lie or whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
But you know, that's the great thing about working with
great artists is, you know, people we're all just on
the same page. Like, yeah, I haven't gotten in an
argument with an artist or like a songwriter.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Maybe ever, but in a very long.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Time, because it just everybody is in it for the
greater good of writing a great song. And that's what
I think a true creative is is that's just that's
what they do. And and yeah, it's been it's been
really cool to work with all different kind of artists.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And it's like, you know, I've done stuff like Bear Teeth.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And and everything from I mean post Alone and uh
It to.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Like Landy Wilson and there's they you're all they're all
on the same page. It's all. It's all doing the
same kind of work, just with different people.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Yeah. I just want to ask you about Joey moy Yeah,
so he used to be you mentioned Nickelback, So he
was a producer with Nickelback, right, and then now he's
kind of like transitioned into this to like a whole
like country Nashville kind of career. Is he sort of
like the mastermind behind a movement in Nashville? Like, how
(41:34):
do you describe his position right now? Like what he's built.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Yeah, I mean he's done it twice in that and
he's done it three times in music.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
I mean he so he he did. He started I.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Believe as an engineer and that in Vancouver working on
Nickelback records, and then he got the producer gig for
I want to say dark Horse, but I want to
say it was like, uh, it was after Silver Side Up,
so it was maybe like all the right reasons the
Long Road and dark Horse. But anyway, he was a
part of the Nickelback's like a really big wave. And
(42:07):
then he was involved with a guy named a manager
in town that just goes by.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Chief, I believe, and Chief had moved to Nashville.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I also believe and talked to Joey into coming and
producing some songs. That's that's Rodney Clausen was involved. Long
story short, Joey came and produced a jac Ohen record
and kind of put this stadium rock thing on it,
and Jake had a song called Barefoot the Blue g
Knight that was like massive, and then from there he
started producing Florida Georgia Line and then like that just
(42:39):
sort of that changed everything for a very long time
in Nashville. I think still to this day, is that
one stuck like there will be people that sound like FGL,
I think for a long time. Yeah, and then uh,
around the time actually yeah, around the time FGL broke
up Morgan walland took off and Joey produced all of
(42:59):
Morgan stuff, And so yeah, I mean he's he's he's
got a thing figured out. I've sat in every single
and he's my producer as well. I sat in every
single set, every song we've ever recorded. He's extremely meticulous.
His biggest thing is like there never being any blank
space in a song. When there can be a catchy
part that's written, it's usually a guitar part, but like
(43:20):
feeling the space feeling the space, making sure it's palatable
and you can sing along to it, and that whole thing.
I think that's a big part of how he produces,
is just making sure that there's no dead space for
anybody to become or to get bored. You know, he's
out in LA now kind of running the rock label,
and I feel like, I kind of joke. I haven't
(43:42):
said this to him, but I think he's just like
he's not at the end of his career, but he's
done so much shit and I think he's made so
much money that he's like, I just want to run
a rock label and sign rock bands and like do
that whole thing.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
So he's spending a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
In LA right now doing that and just just living
his best life.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I feel like with it's like the pressure is off,
He's probably gonna have a whole new era, like a
whole new success, like find a whole new group of
people that are good to kill it.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I mean, look, he's one of the smartest people, if
not the smartest human that I know, so like he
completely understands this new era with social media, Like I like,
shit that goes over my head and I'm just like
how Michael Scott says, explain this to me like I'm
a ten year old.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's how I feel like talking to him a lot.
But yeah, but he just gets it.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
He's one of those people that like he'll be around
forever because he just understands music on a different level
than a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Hardy. I'll let you go,
But thank you so much. It's been cool to talk
to you.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I feel like when we get into songwriting, I'm like,
I could talk hours about songwriting.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I love it so much. So thanks for letting me
open up about that.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
In the episode description, you'll find a link to a
playlist of our favorite Hardy songs. Be sure to check
out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast to see
all our video interviews. Broken Record is produced and edited
by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and
Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is production.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Of Pushkin indis.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember
to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app
Our theme music expect Henny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Before Hardy was known as the breakout artist who pushed
country music into hard rock territory, he was a self
proclaimed redneck from Philadelphia, Mississippi, who studied songwriting at Middle
Tennessee State University. Since moving to Nashville in twenty thirteen,
he's written sixteen number ones for artists like Morgan Wallend,
Blake Shelton, and Dirk Spentley. In twenty eighteen, with the
(00:40):
encouragement of producer Joey Moy and his label Big Loud,
Hardy started writing songs for himself and it paid off.
He's now a five time ACM Award winner and a
two time CMA Award winner, joining the upper echelon of
Big Loud artists that Moy has helped build, alongside Morgan
Wallan and Florida Georgia Line. Today's episode, Leo Rose talks
(01:00):
to Hardy about the craft of writing a song that sticks,
including what he's learned from studying artists like Eminem. They
also get into how AI is showing up in Nashville
rooms and why Hardy thinks bro country isn't going anywhere
anytime soon. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.
(01:25):
Here's Leo Rhodes with Hardy. Head over to YouTube dot
com slash Broken Record Podcast if you want to see
the video.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Brad Paisley has the uh well I'm gonna miss her,
you know the song about uh. She says if you know,
it's like if if you if you go fishing today,
we're over, and then he just says I'm gonna miss her.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm like, that's that's like some shit I would do,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Especially as and so I started that's when I started
getting into country. It was just when it kind of started,
just the lyrics got a little more clever and it
just appealed to like people that grew up country.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
So is the bro country era? Like that's over?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
So I I you know, I'm glad you asked. I
have not commented on this yet.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I know you studied songwriting at school for a period
of time. But how did you how do you go
from just being like a regular like high school kid
to like making the move to Nashville, Like, how do
you even know that any of this existed?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Well, so, my sister moved to Nashville before I did.
She's a year and a half older than me. She
was two grades above me. She was a singer. She
was really talented, still is a really talented singer, and
you know, she she moved to town and I was
in like junior college and just didn't know what I
(02:45):
wanted to do. And at the same time, I had
kind of gotten you know, decent at guitar and had
written a couple songs I mean that literally is it,
and was sending them to her. You know, I was
recording them on back then. I don't even know what
I recorded it on. It was before iPhones, and.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
But I sent them to her and she basically hit
me up. One day.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I was just like, hey, you know, there's a whole
industry here, like the songwriting, the publishing industry, where you
get people get paid to write songs, and most of
the songs you hear on the radio aren't written by
that artist, or at least it was written by like
some normal guys and girls that just go to the
grocery store every day.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And you know, I didn't listen to country music growing up.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I grew up in a small town, and I grew
up hunting and fishing and doing all the stuff. But
I didn't listen to country music because it didn't appeal
to me at all. There was nothing I got out
of it until like Eric Church and some of these
guys that started kind of singing about being a good
old boy came along, and then I was like, Okay,
I do this stuff, so I resonate with it. But
I learned more about songwriting by locking myself in a
room for four years and just listening to country music
(03:43):
and trying to more or less replicate that in.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
My own way than I did in school.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I don't know, I feel like I got very lucky
and I just made a snap decision and I just
sort of wound up here.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I mean I worked really hard.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You know, with once I signed a publishing deal and
all that, and really never gave up and never thought
about giving up and all that good stuff. But I
just I made such a snap decision and it just which,
you know, that's I just felt like it was just
meant to be.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I also saw you that used to be really into
like new metal, like you went through a phase I
guess when you were a teenager.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Still in it. You're still in it of course, all
this stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
I was so happy for you that you did a
song with fred Durst. I was like, that must have
been so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It was.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It was a moment where they're like, you know, there's
a lot of highs and there's a lot of wow.
I can't believe I met this person or I wrote
a song for this person, or what I'm doing a
song with this person.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
But man, the Fred one was different.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
And I was like in Italy at the time, and
my at the time, a guy that was working at
my label. We had reached out to him, but I
had no connection to him other than the guy that
was working in my label.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
He texted me just said, hey, if you get a.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Phone call today from like whatever number, like answer it,
It's gonna be Fred Durst. And I was like what
and so I it was like one of the coolest
things ever.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean, it was such a huge Lambiscuit fan. I
still am. I love the stuff they's put out to
this day. But yeah, all that stuff, I mean that
really that was.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I was new metal was when I was like age
nine to like, you know, fourteen, So those are very
very absorbing music years.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
For me, and so I took in a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
It just it was, man, something about like all that
stuff Lincoln Park. I mean I had I begged my
parents for the Hybrid Theory record when I was like
ten years old, and the guy gave it to me,
and and uh, it just it changed my life.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I mean I was obsessed with that stuff. I still am.
I love it. I love new metal so much.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
That's so cool. I hear very few people like people
like to shit on new metal, but I love that
you're into it.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean, you can shit on it all you want.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But like, I know for a fact that both Lincoln
Park and lit Biscuit at separate times were the biggest
bands in the world.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, System of a Down, same thing.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
They're kind, they're I guess they're new metal ish, they're
they're just their own thing. They're huge, But yeah, they're
that that era of rock and roll, aside from like
a little bit after that with like Nickelback and Three
Doors Down, that was like the last era of bands
that were just absolutely worldwide, gigantic, so you can shop
(06:19):
on it all your own, but that shit was worldwide
and they crushed it. So you know, a lot more
people liked it than didn't.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
What about metal, Like, were you into like Slipknot. Were
you into like more like harder metal stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, I love my Suga a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Oh wow, I didn't get into Slipknot as much until
I was older. I know that was kind of happening
at the same time, but I just I wasn't into
slip Knot quite as much. But let's see, high school
like a kid made me a burnt set. I was
more like in the post hardcore era or like you know,
(07:01):
like people call it death core early like a day
to remember, like like August Burns.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Red and I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
There's so many and I rode that way for for
quite some time, and I still listen to a lot
of stuff now.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I love Spirit Box.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I think it's dope. I like Falling in Reverse. I
if another one that people like to shit on, but
I think it's like the fresh freshest ship that's been
come out in a long time.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
To Sleep Token, oh, I don't know, Sleep Token, Oh
my god, you have to listen to Sleep Talking so sick.
They are so sick, the huge.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Like genre blenders, but they're really cool. But yeah, I
love all that stuff. If it grooves like I can't
listen to I'm not a big like black metal or
just nothing that really ever grooves.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's why I love Michelle so much is their rifts.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Were so like clean and and just groovy, and I
just I love that kind.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Of Yeah, were you kind of like an outcast in
high school? Like what was your what were and what
were you dressing? Like, like did you have like the
spikey Lincoln Park hair?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
No, I was. I was kind of a regular Southern boy.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
People in high school like to tell me that, uh
that I was a little bit differ friend and I
was kind of a rocker kid, and I guess maybe
I was, But no, I just music was ironically kind
of a big Like it was big in my hometown,
and like people loved music and all different kinds and
there was a little bit of a scene. You know.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
There was a couple of seen kids and metal kids
that that I went to high school with.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
But they were also like they were cool, you know,
and and uh are just you know, they were popular,
they had friends.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
It was just it was sort of different. But no,
I was. I felt like I belonged just right where
I was and had a good I.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Mean, I was in I was in like FFA and shit,
I was I was a country kid.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I just, uh wait, that's Farmers future Farmers of America.
It's my favorite class school.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Most of my close buddies though, were like, bro, turn
the ship off when I would play stuff like that.
But I just you know, I loved it, and I
have I had my metal buddies, and I had my
my hunting buddies and you know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
How old are you when you're allowed to start hunting?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Seven?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Maybe I have an eight year old right now.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I'm like, oh no, I think I said my first
deer when I was seven hunting by myself.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I think I was like twelve. Wow. Obviously like my you.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Know, I would go with my dad and we would
go separate ways or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But but yeah, a really really young age. It's it's
a big part of my family.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
The men in my specifically, we all were in still
are big deer hunters.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yep. So you talked a little bit about the country
that was popular when you were growing up and how
you didn't identify with it. I guess was that like
what was that era? Like how would you classify the
music like it was nineties?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, late nineties, early two thousands. It was a lot
of like honky tongue music. I mean, I grew up
in a dry county. I didn't drink. I wasn't I
didn't start drinking early, you know what I mean. I'd
start drinking like or having had my first few beers.
I guess you would say, like eighteen nineteen years old,
like most most kids, you know, maybe twenty, but.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
You're hunting at seven.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, seven. But I didn't start drinking until I was
you know, Yeah. It just didn't appeal to me there.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I'd never been in a bar, you know, And and
it was either that or it was very It was
like a lot of adult It appealed more to adults
back then. I feel like the subject matter and and
uh huh, I just didn't. It just didn't resonate with me,
you know, Brooks and Done who I now go back
and I'm like, this music is awesome. But a sixteen
year old kid, you know, I don't know anything about
boot Scoot and Boy. I've never I've never swing danced
(10:36):
or whatever that whatever that song is about.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I don't know. It just it was it just did
not appeal to me at all. It was just very
adult and not until Brad.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Paisley has the uh I'm gonna miss her, you know
the song about uh. She says if you know, it's
like if if you if you go fishing today were
over and then he just says, I'm gonna miss her.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I'm like, that's.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's like some ship I would do, you know what
I mean, especially as and so I started that's when
I started getting into the country.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
It was just when it kind of started to just.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
The lyrics got a little more clar and it just
appealed to like people that grew up country.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I feel like that was not a thing in the nineties.
There wasn't a lot.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Of country boy can survive type stuff in the nineties.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, that makes sense when you could see yourself in
the music. Yeah, I heard you talking about like songwriting
now in Nashville has gotten very industrialized.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I guess what I meant by that more than anything
is it's just you don't nobody sits around and withou
lights candles and says kumbai and talks about what they
what they've you know, what they've been through and what
that I mean that that does happen, It's happened to
me and it's I've written those kinds of songs and
they've been recorded and everything, but but uh, you know,
really it's just you you sit down that day and
(11:51):
you try to write a hit or just the best
song in the room, and it's just it's kind of
the same thing over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And that's and that's okay. It's just it's it's a job.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It's literally like any other job where you know, you
kind of just do somewhat of the same thing every day,
and uh, that's all I mean. You know, there's there's
all kinds of cool, little magic moments throughout town. And
you know, like I wrote a song that Cody Johnson
recorded called Jesus Loves You. It's not what you think
if you go listen to it, but about a guy
that is talking to a guy in jail because the
(12:20):
guy in jail broke into this guy's house and stuff
like that. Like a buddy of mine came in with
that exact story the next day because somebody had broken
into his house and anyway, so like you know, stuff
like that, like it does happen, but it's it's just
not as common as uh as just sitting sitting down
and just trying to write a good song every day.
And in that way, I think it's industrialized for sure.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Got you. Yeah, So are you still enjoying it? Are
you still enjoying writing songs?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I love it so much.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It's my I enjoy it more than any part of
my career. I enjoy it all, but I enjoy it
more than any part of my career.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I mean, that feels like pretty amazing because you've obviously
done it for so long. You're almost like a decade.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
In right, professionally twelve years in.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yeah. Yeah, the fact that you still love it is
pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
That.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I mean, I like to consider myself a decent singer
and a pretty good performer, but I think that the
reason that I was put on this earth was to
write songs. There's just just something that happens to me
in a songwriting room that, like, I can be having
the worst day, I could be having like a mental
breakdown or anxiety or whatever it is, and the second
we get on a song and start digging into a
(13:30):
lyric or whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean, everything in the world just goes away.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
And that's that is that it is my zen moment,
especially professionally. It's like the one time that I just
sort of feel like I'm just in a different place
and it's just such a cool thing.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I love it so much.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Have you ever tried to analyze what it is about
the process that you love so much? Like, is it
like the puzzle part of it? Is it the like
clever side of it?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
A lot? I think all of it, I think, or
at least those two things. You kind of nailed it.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I mean it is very much, especially with country, like
every line has a place like you're not there's you know,
somewhat of rule, like you don't really you're not supposed
to contradict yourself, like don't say anything that you said
before in the song within the song. You know, there's
all these different kind of caveats or rules or whatever, and.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I just love and so in that way, it's like
a puzzle.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's like, well, what do we say in the second
verse that we haven't said in the first verse, and
like how does that course sort of change the course?
But you get back to the chorus in the same
way and all that. The puzzle is like really my
favorite part. But lyric more than anything, like a lyric,
the lyrics more than the melody and the music and
all that.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
That's that's where I get off. I love that stuff.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Is it okay in the room when you're in the
room with people and you're writing, Is it okay to
use AI?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Like?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Is it okay to like put something in chat gpt
and be like can you like I do it.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
All the time with with with uh you get Look,
here's the thing. Any Nashville songwriter would be lying if
they didn't say that they didn't go to write either
like rhyme zone dot com or like a rhyming.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Dictionary website thing.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
And so if I'm stuck and I'm like, hey, can
you give me a line for whatever that is in
the vein of like you know, being outside in the woods,
I'm just looking at my computer back screen, which is
like you know the woods, and you know, half the time,
like I would never chat chat GPT doesn't have a soul,
so like it doesn't a I would never ask it.
(15:30):
But it doesn't get like the inner soul that produces
like the lyric that will make somebody cry, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, So that all just comes from being a.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Human, but with like rhymes and just sort of stuff,
really simple stuff I've used it before for sure.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yeah, I feel like it's, if anything, it's like a
good jumping off point.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Sure, I mean it's not going I love that. You
might as well be a part of it.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
So when you locked yourself in the room, what did
you figure out about country? Like what was the formula?
Did you crack the formula or did you were you
like trying to figure out themes that like resonated with
big audiences or were you trying to think more about
like verse, chorus bridge, that kind of thing, like the
mechanics of the song.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, more more of the mechanics. You know.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I didn't really get into I still, I swear to
this day, not until like you're at you're deep in
the middle of.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
A song, do you think, like, oh man, okay, this
is a hit.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Like what if we do a moment right here where
it's like booom crowd moment, you know, like that's kind
of that comes way later, I feel in the process,
at least for me, it did. So for me, I
was just figuring out the structure and it's just you know,
it's like you either go verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge, chorus,
or you go verse chorus, verse, chorus, solo, chorus, or
(16:44):
you start with a chorus and then you do a
verse and then a chorus and then a solo and
then a bridge. You know, there's there's like four or
five different formulas, and I don't know, I just kind
of felt like I learned those types of things.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And you know, a big one for me was paying attention.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I was a big M and M fan, still am,
but figuring out how to phrase lines putting emphasis on
the right vowels so that there is a uh is
it assonance? And I think it's assonance is the one
that like puts the emphasis on the vowels And so
if if if, like I studied that a lot, like,
(17:20):
because there's certain ways you can phrase a line that said,
and you can phrase a line two different ways and
make them sound one sounds like a hit and one
doesn't sound like a hit. And it's all about where
you put the emphasis on certain like parts of the word.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And I wish that I could just pull one out
of my ass and do it right now.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Dude, wait, can you think of one from your own
catalog or maybe something from Eminem, like an Eminem song
where he does Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Let me think really quick.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Uh oh my god, that's this is gonna kill me now,
because like you can't do it now.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
So if you put emphasis on a word in a sentence,
it'll make it sound more like a hit. Is that
what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, like if you if you were gonna say like like.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Think of like a Morgan Wallin's or some like big like.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Okay, all right, So the second verse of more than
my Hometown, I ain't the runaway kind.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I can't change that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
My heart's stuck in these streets like the train tracks,
city sky ain't the same black?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Ain't that a map dot? Shame?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And to think that chorus I Love you More, it's
just like finding those vowels that sound the same and
making sure that you sing them the exact same every
single time, so that it just sounds like a bar.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It sounds like an eminem song, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
It sounds very hip hoppy.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, that's so cool. I studied that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
There's a guy he's still around and he's written so
many hits. But Casey Bethard, I'm not gonna call him
old man. I'm gonna run into him and be like, boy,
you call me old man, but he it's like, man,
I want to I'm always wanted to ask him, like, dude,
who did you listen to to to develop your internal
rhyme scheme? Because he if you go back, I mean,
you look at all the songs he's written, but he's
(19:03):
just got He had such a cool way of finding
those internal rhymes because they're kind of sometimes they can
be hidden in a line, you know, and the right
person sings it the right way and you're like, oh,
that sounds awesome. But he he, I really learned from him.
And Rodney Clausen was another one. There's a second verse
or first verse of that. Uh. Actually, I don't even
know if Rodney wrote this song. But around here at
(19:24):
g L, I'm gonna pick her up at six.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I hope she's gonna wear the geens with the tear
that her mama never fixed. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
It's just finding all the little internal internal rhymes in
there that makes a song better.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It always makes a song better.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I say all the time, if you if you when
you're writing a song and it's like a tongue twister.
Sometimes people are like, ah, that's kind of hard to sing,
and I'm like no, because when you finally spit it out,
it's gonna sound awesome, like it's you know when it's
hard to say that means it's it's it's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You just have to learn it, you know.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah. I feel like with the song radio song, you're
writing about the thing, like you're commenting on things and
getting really clever with like the fourth wa yes, yeah, yes,
did you start doing that like out of boredom? Like
were you trying to make a statement like how like
where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I just always liked songs about songs or like they
call it meta to you know, like it's yes, like uh,
and for radio songs specifically, I just I've there's a
few songs that have done that in history that I
loved and I wanted my own version of that. There
was a song, you know a lot of people don't know,
the Hey Ya buy outcast is about how people these
(20:36):
days don't stay together anymore. They just get married and
then they'll just get divorced. And that song is like
my baby don't mess around because she loves me so
and this I know for sure, Like thank God for
mom and dad for sticking to together because we don't
know how, and then and the bridge, he's like, y'all.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Don't want to hear me, you just want to dance. Hey, y'all,
Like this.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Song is, yes, it's like really cool, but the chorus
is just like you.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Know, man, but whatever, y'all don't care. Here's a chorus.
And that's kind of where I just I.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Wanted to do something like that with with radio song.
And by no means was I fed up. I mean
I wrote that in the peak of my well, I
like to say, my first peek in my songwriting career.
So like my relationship with radio was great and I'm
like praising God every day for the radio, so you know,
and most of the radio people that I've come in
contact with, they love it and they get the cheekiness
(21:22):
of it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
And when I play it live, yeah, I'll if the
radio people.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Are in the room, I'll give him a wink and
kind of make a big smile like I'm never really
angry about it. I just I just wanted to write
a song about a song. And that's not the first
time I've done it, but I enjoy doing it sometimes.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, No, that's fun and it makes sense when like
knowing that you admire people like Eminem. He commented a
lot on the state of like the music business and
just pop culture in general.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Fleewood Matt kind of did it with rumors, but it
was a little bit more cryptic. But like Eminem was
the first person also to just completely open up his
actual life to the world, and so it was like
listening to reality music, you know what I mean. Yeah,
And I think, you know, I don't ever, I don't
have the balls to do that. I don't want to
air out which I don't have a whole lot of laundry,
but I don't want to air out my laundry to
the world.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But he you know, I've always admired him for that
because that was really brave of him to do that,
and it worked.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
People became invested in like his story, you know, and
it just it totally worked, and I think that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
And then he had like eight Mile and then that's
even like taking it further. Yeah. And then bro Country.
I want to ask you about that song too, So
is the bro Country era? Like that's over?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Okay, So I you know, I'm glad you asked.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I have not commented on this yet, Okay, me and
Arn came up with that idea together at at Morgan
wallin Show of All Things, we were opening for him like.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Three and a half to four years ago.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I feel like that concept completely, like I'm I'm like
owning up to this, but I feel like the concept
of bro country the song is kind of out the
window because I now feel like in the next few
years some of that is going to come back. And
I'm just being completely honest. You know, when we wrote it,
(23:04):
it was like, man, there's all these new people that
are coming in and they're you know, it was very
it was very fresh off of like a really potent
bro country era. But even just four or five and
now almost maybe six years later, you know, there there's
a guy. There's a guy kid right now named Cody Loadin.
He's doing this like broke. He's got a song called
a Buckle Up and it's just it's just earwormy, like
(23:27):
the debt the Muse. The lyrics aren't super super deep,
but they're so well written, and it's just it's that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
It's just like, don't know what we're gonna do tonight,
but baby buckle Up. But it just it sounds good,
you know.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I saw a girl, Lauren Watkins make a video a
while back and she was like, I'm just gonna say
I miss bro Country. Uh, And she was like, I
want She didn't use word objectified, but she was like,
I want to be called hot.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I want people to think I look hot with my
legs swinging off tailgate. I miss it. Bring it back.
And I was like, man, you know that's right.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
And I honestly believe that girls that grew up in
that era listening to that kind of miss that a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And Morgan Morgan will do it like Morgan.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Does it, and but he's kind of the only guy
that sort of can still get away with it. But
all that to be said, I think it's going to
come back in the next ten years. I think it's
going to come back, and I just I'm here for it.
So sorry, bro Country. Broke Country was was It wasn't
a bad idea, but I think it was a short
lived thought.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yep, we'll be back with more from Hardy after the break.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I heard you say in a different interview that you
were talking about how if you have a number one hit.
I think it was if you have like a number
one song on the radio, you get like as a songwriter,
you get like two hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, I don't know, take yeah, give or take.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
And I was just curious, like as a range, like,
how does being a songwriter compare to being an artist
who's touring, who's like playing stadiums monitor earl. But yeah,
just like range wise, like like.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Touring makes way more money if you're killing it.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
But something that I learned recently, and I'll be somewhat
cryptic here, but like if you do have a string
of hits as a songwriter, you have the ability to
sell your catalog and you don't get that back, you know,
so you kind of want to make sure that most
of the stream has run out, your revenue stream from
(25:27):
the songs that you're selling has run out. But if
you have enough hits and you sell a catalog as
a songwriter, you can make a shit ton of money.
And it kind of will put in perspective like touring
versus writing, if that makes sense, right, because if you're
like a well, if you're a stadium act, that's like
a different level of money and that's not I'm I'm
(25:50):
like an amphitheater act at best, but.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It is really good.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
But you know, you would have to be really crushing
it as a songwriter to kind of get close to
like a somebody that's crushing it touring, to be honest.
But again, yeah, the catalog sale kind of makes up
for that on the back end a little bit because
that's a really that's like you're super ball as a
songwriter too, is you want to be able to do
that one Day's that creates that's a different type of
like send your grandkids to.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
College, totally generational wealth. Yeah, so how do you know
when you said, like when it's run its course? Like,
how do you know when that time is?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I mean, if you have a business manager, they can
kind of keep an eye on it, but you just
like you get you get a statement from your pro quarterly,
the people that pay you, and you could just see,
you know, like I can go pull my last statement
up and you know obviously like I wrote a Blake
Shelton song called God's Country and like that's that was
(26:47):
one of my biggest hits.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And and like at its.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Peak it was making this much and you know I
can just see that, like you can just sort of
tell when it sort of dwindles down to around this,
maybe a very lower five five figure number for a
year or so at a time, and then you know,
basically a company is willing to buy that song for
more than what that fight what fivegers quarterly would make
in your lifetime.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
So you're kind of taking the money and run, but.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Running, yeah, because like it's it's still an investment for
other companies because over one hundred years it's gonna or
seventy years, it's gonna make more than what they paid
you for it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
But you're like, you know, again, make the money and
run kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
But then something like a Stranger Things could license a song.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Because because they could, you could get like an eight
figure deal off of something crazy and then Sony or
you know, somebody like that owns it now and that happens.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You know, like you just never know, Like you never know.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
A song that I sold could could be sampled and
be the biggest like Swedish dance song in the world
and make a ton of money, and you know, but
that's just that's kind of the risk that you take
when you sell a catalog, So you just never know.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I was curious about the way that you sequence an
album with country country you like with the song bottom Land,
Why did you put that all the way at the
end of the album? Like, how do you think about
the sequencing?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I don't remember that since that that record had like
twenty songs on it, I fel that was harder for
me to curate or or to to make the list
for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So I can't really.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Give an answer as to why more towards the end,
to be honest with you, but I will say I do.
I'm heavily involved, if not one responsible for every track
order of every record that I've done.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, It's just you know, I know that.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
People don't listen to albums front to back anymore, but
I feel like in that way, I'm kind of an
old soul, and it's like I've always loved albums and
like a body of work, and I think that, you know,
for people that create music to make a body of work,
I guess want it to be listened to front to back.
And so I definitely will look at the list of
(29:02):
songs and try to like pull you emotionally all over
the place by the end, so that there's nothing that
seems too monoton or or too repetitive.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On the record if that makes it Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
You mentioned that it had a really long track list,
Like why not just put half of those out and
save the other half for a future release.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I just I don't. I don't operate like that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Like I this this record was very intentionally country and
and yeah it was. It was kind of a retaliation
to me leaving the country space for a year and
going into the rock space because my last record was
called Quit and we we marketed that as a rock record.
So this was sort of almost I didn't treat the
music sarcastically, but like it was like a here's your
(29:46):
here's a big ass country record for everybody to enjoy.
And uh, and that it's just it's where my head space.
That's where I was, like, you know, in my headspace,
and and uh, I like I said, I want to
move on, and like I have a different project already
in mind for like the next thing.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
And so no, I know you do. I want to
hear about it.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
What is it? Is?
Speaker 4 (30:07):
It way different?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It's yes, a little bit of the same, a little
bit different.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's just it's a I'm getting back to like a
concept kind of like the mocking bird and the Crow
which was my second album, which I still think is
kind of my flagship record.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So far, right because it's got the country and the
rock together.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
It's sick if somebody was like, who's hardy, you know,
like what what should I listen to? Like, that's that's
what the reference probably is. But no, I mean, I
have I have a concept. I'll probably have my first
I'm gonna have like an eight minute song on the record,
which I'm stoked about that kind of talks about the concept.
And it's just I'm just trying to continue to sort
(30:48):
of push boundaries and just keep people on their.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Toes and make people just be like what the fuck?
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And that's just is it like a different genre of music,
like a totally different genre or is it like just
new metal and country.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
A little bit of this little bit of that.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Is it like trap or something?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
No, no, no, no, it's not like that.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It's it's all Look, it's all under the umbrella of
like me and my music.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
But it's just it's it's more it's less like a
genre changing and more of like a theme.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It's more of like, uh, a concept, yeah, like a
concept or it's just it's got more of a theme,
an intentional theme to the structure of the album. I'm
still probably a year out from a record coming out,
hopefully more because I need some time to really I
want this one to really count, because I've always believed too,
(31:41):
Like you know, my first record was a rock and
it did well, but then the Mocky Bird and the
Crow did really well, and then Quit didn't do quite
as good as Marckybird and the Crow, and then Country
Country did a little bit better than Quit, but.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Not as good as Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
But I'm a firm believer that that just because you
had records that followed a record that didn't do as
good doesn't mean that you're done making your best record.
Pretty Hate Machine was nine Inch Nails as first record,
and I think that came out in like eighty nine
or nine or something, and that was like their biggest
record for a long time. And then With Teeth came
out like seventeen years later, and that is like the
(32:17):
record that everybody knows nine inch Nails by, and I'm like, man,
if they can do that, I feel like I can
do that. I just have to keep trusting myself and
know that there's still something greater out there to explore.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Do you feel like you make the music for you
or do you make it for the audience.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think I make it for me. I've thought about
this a lot.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I just want to make stuff that's like I would
think is cool, you know, like that I would listen to.
I think I definitely think like when I get something
really great, I'm like, my fans were gonna love this,
but I don't. I'm not making anything for anyone outside
of my fan base to be impressed with. Like, I
just want, like I'm not like, man, I need more
(32:59):
metal fans, or I need more traditional country fans, or
I need to do like I just don't operate like that.
So but mostly I just I want to make shit
that I just think sounds cool, and like me and
buddies all just think is cool, you know, And and yeah,
that's just sort of the starting point, I guess.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, Well, let's break and we'll be back with Hardy.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Have you had to deal with any friends or any
collaborators who want to kind of be like where you're at,
Like any fellow songwriters people you work with that also
want to be maybe artists themselves, but for whatever reason,
can't make that transition or have tried and haven't found success. Yeah,
have you had to deal with that? Like has that
hard for you being someone who has crossed over and
(33:46):
found success?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
You know, I'm not not necessarily everybody that. Like, Like,
my best friend is his name is Hunter Phelps, and
he he did the artist thing for a while and
just never he he did really well, but he never
like never signed a deal, never had a radio single
or anything like that. And and he you know, so
(34:10):
he kind of hung it up, or at least, you know,
full time hung it up. And then he has like
fifteen number ones under his belt as a writer now,
so like most people have parlor or transitioned into something
really great. Another friend of mine, Jordan Brooker. Jordan was
a songwriter and he was one of the kind of
guys that that and he would he would be fine
with me saying this sort of got like he sort
of went into a corner and was like, I don't know,
(34:32):
I kind of want to.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Go do like my own rock thing.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And we were all like, bro, we're all writing country
songs like come with Us, and so I feel like
he kind of got left behind a little bit. And
then like ten years later, I end up signing his
rock band to a record label and he's killing it
and he's making like awesome music.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
So every I feel like everybody that.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
That I felt like has not had success has turned
whatever that into something else that's been really great.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So that's really special.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Yeah, that's awesome. Why do you think that it worked
out so well for you when there's like, I don't
know if there's so many people have you know, I'm
sure a ton of people moved to Nashville to try
and do the exact same thing, but you made it. Like,
what do you think the difference is? Like do you
think it's innate talent? Do you think you just are
you work harder, you met the like the right people, Like,
(35:19):
what is it?
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I think it's just all of it luck. I think
it's all of it together.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
But I think the driving force for me is just
being a decent person.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And just treating people right and being polite.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
And everybody has their moments, like you know, and it
sucks when you do have a bad moment with a
fan or with somebody, or somebody sees you kind of
being an ascid But you know what, man, we're all
we all have those days.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
We all have those moments.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
It just sucks to be sort of in the spotlight
or just being kind of caught at the wrong place
at the right or wrong time.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
But you know, talent is.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Fifty one percent of it, luck is ten percent, right
place at the right time is ten percent, and then
the other twenty nine percent or whatever is I really
truly believe, and hard work is in there too. But
it's just being somebody that people want to work with.
Because I can tell you right now I have people
that I write with that are not the best writers
in town. There are people that are more talented than
(36:22):
the people I love working with. That sucks as a
human being, and I don't want to work with that
person period. So, like Pete, just be somebody that people
want to work with, that people.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Want to root for, and and and just a good
hanging pet that people like being.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
You know that you make people feel comfortable being being
around you. I think it. There's so much of that.
I mean, all of the all of the biggest people
in Nashville, the people that I looked up to, like
Blake Shelton, the Luke Bryan, Miranda Lambert, Derk's Bentley have
all been the most kind, easy to be around people,
personable and just normal at their core people.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And I just I truly believe that's why.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
That's what turns people into like a superstar, is that
so many people just love.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Who you are.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
I feel like Lady like that too. She seems so.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Cool, unbelievably normal, Like unbelievably normal.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
She would she hits me up all the time and
she's we our schedules are also crazy, so we haven't
done it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
But she's like, you want to go get some.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Mexican food, you know, And I'm just like, man, it
just sounds like something. You know, she is my buddy,
but just sounds like something one of my guys buddies
would just be like, hey, dude, you know. I mean,
she's so that girl for the amount of success and
stardom that she's experienced, has not changed a single bit.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And I love that so much about her.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Is there anybody that you want to work with on
the new album that you can tell us about, like
any collaborations or any like new metal people, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I'm not really sure. I mean, I love Mike. Mike
Shinoda would be really cool.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Yeah, but he's so cool have you met him?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
No, No, I never met him.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That would be very cool, even I mean I would
do another song with Fred Durst, or even like if
I had, like Wes Borland play like a a part
on something I don't know's there's a million a million people,
I'm sure that would come to mind.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
But I haven't really given it a lot of thought yet.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
I've only written I think five or six songs for
this next project, and I've got a long way to go.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
So okay, you have twenty more So with like the
Fred the Fred Dirt back to the Fred Durst song,
like when he did he send you that verse and
then you listen to it and then like did you
work remotely or cause you guys weren't in the same
we weren't.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, I had that hook, I had that chorus. When
we cut it in the studio, we just cut like,
you know whatever. It was sixteen bar verse and I
just sent it to him and he was like, what's
what kind of vibe are you feeling? And I sort
of would send it back and then he was like
what about this? And I'm pretty sure the first thing
he sent back, I was like, that sounds like Fred Durst. Like,
that's that's cool to me, and that's what we went with.
(39:04):
But yeah, unfortunately we didn't get to sit in the
same room together, but it was it was again, like
extremely cool, and you know, he didn't he didn't go silent,
but like he had just had a kid or something.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Kind of right in the middle of it.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
So I didn't hear from him for like a few weeks,
and then I was writing a song with some friends, uh,
and I was wearing a hat to say live laugh
lit biscuit kind.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Of cheesy, and that day he texted out of the blue.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
After like three weeks I'm not hearing from him, he
texted me all like his verses and stuff, and I
was like, oh, that's cool, and I sent him a
selfie wearing the hat and then he was like yo,
he was like who made that hat?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I'm about to go sue him and put that on
our own merch line.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Totally, that's crazy. So do you feel comfortable at that
point since you look up to him so much and
you love him, Like, do you feel comfortable being like, oh, hey,
can you change like the third line or.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah it doesn't definitely, yeah, yeah, I mean in a
creative space, you know, and he's an artist and he
gets that. So I, you know, I don't really remember
the details of that conversation, but one percent if there
was one thing that bothered me. Again, he's a creative,
so he totally gets it. I I feel like he
would totally respect.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
That and and and and come back with.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Whatever was best for the song for sure, which is
so crazy to think about.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, Hey, Fred Durst, I didn't like that on
a lie or whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
But you know, that's the great thing about working with
great artists is, you know, people we're all just on
the same page. Like, yeah, I haven't gotten in an
argument with an artist or like a songwriter.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Maybe ever, but in a very long.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Time, because it just everybody is in it for the
greater good of writing a great song. And that's what
I think a true creative is is that's just that's
what they do. And and yeah, it's been it's been
really cool to work with all different kind of artists.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And it's like, you know, I've done stuff like Bear Teeth.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And and everything from I mean post Alone and uh
It to.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Like Landy Wilson and there's they you're all they're all
on the same page. It's all. It's all doing the
same kind of work, just with different people.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Yeah. I just want to ask you about Joey moy Yeah,
so he used to be you mentioned Nickelback, So he
was a producer with Nickelback, right, and then now he's
kind of like transitioned into this to like a whole
like country Nashville kind of career. Is he sort of
like the mastermind behind a movement in Nashville? Like, how
(41:34):
do you describe his position right now? Like what he's built.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Yeah, I mean he's done it twice in that and
he's done it three times in music.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
I mean he so he he did. He started I.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Believe as an engineer and that in Vancouver working on
Nickelback records, and then he got the producer gig for
I want to say dark Horse, but I want to
say it was like, uh, it was after Silver Side Up,
so it was maybe like all the right reasons the
Long Road and dark Horse. But anyway, he was a
part of the Nickelback's like a really big wave. And
(42:07):
then he was involved with a guy named a manager
in town that just goes by.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Chief, I believe, and Chief had moved to Nashville.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I also believe and talked to Joey into coming and
producing some songs. That's that's Rodney Clausen was involved. Long
story short, Joey came and produced a jac Ohen record
and kind of put this stadium rock thing on it,
and Jake had a song called Barefoot the Blue g
Knight that was like massive, and then from there he
started producing Florida Georgia Line and then like that just
(42:39):
sort of that changed everything for a very long time
in Nashville. I think still to this day, is that
one stuck like there will be people that sound like FGL,
I think for a long time. Yeah, and then uh,
around the time actually yeah, around the time FGL broke
up Morgan walland took off and Joey produced all of
(42:59):
Morgan stuff, And so yeah, I mean he's he's he's
got a thing figured out. I've sat in every single
and he's my producer as well. I sat in every
single set, every song we've ever recorded. He's extremely meticulous.
His biggest thing is like there never being any blank
space in a song. When there can be a catchy
part that's written, it's usually a guitar part, but like
(43:20):
feeling the space feeling the space, making sure it's palatable
and you can sing along to it, and that whole thing.
I think that's a big part of how he produces,
is just making sure that there's no dead space for
anybody to become or to get bored. You know, he's
out in LA now kind of running the rock label,
and I feel like, I kind of joke. I haven't
(43:42):
said this to him, but I think he's just like
he's not at the end of his career, but he's
done so much shit and I think he's made so
much money that he's like, I just want to run
a rock label and sign rock bands and like do
that whole thing.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
So he's spending a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
In LA right now doing that and just just living
his best life.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I feel like with it's like the pressure is off,
He's probably gonna have a whole new era, like a
whole new success, like find a whole new group of
people that are good to kill it.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
I mean, look, he's one of the smartest people, if
not the smartest human that I know, so like he
completely understands this new era with social media, Like I like,
shit that goes over my head and I'm just like
how Michael Scott says, explain this to me like I'm
a ten year old.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
That's how I feel like talking to him a lot.
But yeah, but he just gets it.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
He's one of those people that like he'll be around
forever because he just understands music on a different level
than a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Hardy. I'll let you go,
But thank you so much. It's been cool to talk
to you.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I feel like when we get into songwriting, I'm like,
I could talk hours about songwriting.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
I love it so much. So thanks for letting me
open up about that.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
In the episode description, you'll find a link to a
playlist of our favorite Hardy songs. Be sure to check
out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast to see
all our video interviews. Broken Record is produced and edited
by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and
Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is production.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Of Pushkin indis.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember
to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app
Our theme music expect Henny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
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