September 5, 2024 • 43 mins
Gary Tanguay filled in on NightSide:
Killer Lies: Chasing a True Crime Con Man is a three-part thriller on National Geographic that explores the investigation into the rise and fall of a provocative French serial killer expert, Stéphane Bourgoin. Emmy nominated filmmaker Ben Selkow directed the film and joined Gary to discuss!
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Killer Lies: Chasing a True Crime Con Man is a three-part thriller on National Geographic that explores the investigation into the rise and fall of a provocative French serial killer expert, Stéphane Bourgoin. Emmy nominated filmmaker Ben Selkow directed the film and joined Gary to discuss!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And welcome back Boy, Do we have a story for
you here on WBC's Nightside. Killer Lies Chasing a true
crime con Man from National Geographic and also Hulu. It's
streaming on Hulu right now. I highly recommend it. It
is a three part series. It is riveting, it's well told,
it's well produced, and it's just an unbelievable story. And
the director of this film joining us right now, Ben Selko. Ben,
(00:30):
Welcome to Nightside. I've seen a lot of stuff, Ben
in my life, but this one's a doozy because not
only do you have serial killers and they're extremely bad people,
but then you have another dude that is supposedly doing
something good.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And he's a liar. I mean, have you have you
ever seen anything like this before?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You know?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
I mean yes, I think you can look around in
the American political sphere in all corners and find this
profile character pretty readily. But you're right, I mean this,
You've got, you know, a story, you know, full of
serial killers, and at the heart of it is someone
who is a serial liar, right, who trade trades and
(01:18):
betrayal and you know, in our story that becomes tanam
out and the most important kind of crime that is,
you know, expressed over and over again, repeatedly, and you
know it's something that was really wild and really wild
to try to untangle.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know, I'm sure it was. I mean, you must have.
We'll get into how you pull this all together, but
just tell us how, you know, a quick tiase of
what the series is about, and you know how you
came about to develop.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
This so kill Lives Chasing a true Trime true crime
com man is sourced from a twenty twenty two article
by Lauren Collins in The New Yorker and that entitled
that article originally was Murdered, he wrote, and it's about
Stefan bourg Wan, who is a French serial killer expert
(02:12):
who rose to a huge amount of prominence, built a
huge following, you know, nationally in France and you know,
within the true crime world, and you know, for forty
years was really kind of the man on top, you know,
as the go to person around talking about serial killers,
and anytime there's a you know, a national event or
international event, he would be called by radio, which television
(02:34):
to appear. Was a prolific writer and you know, raised
and kept elevating his profile as you know, an expert
on killers, morphing into a profiler, you know, depending on
the you know, the the venue, that forum, the introduction
by the said host that you know, he kind of
title and statue whood, it would elevate and amplify and
(02:56):
grow every time. And so you know, he kind of
was the top king of this kingdom in France for
a very long time until about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty,
when some of his true crime fans, some of his
ardent fans, started tugging on the strings of his story
a little bit, and you know, the needless to say,
(03:17):
the sweater started to come undone and our story details
the story that you know, Lauren Collins wrote The New Yorker,
but also advances the investigation, goes deeper, goes further, you know,
it starts all the way back in the seventies and
brings this story you know, through Lauren's reporting and advances
the investigation you know, until you know, you know, deep
(03:39):
into twenty twenty three, in twenty twenty four, so it
becomes very current and catches up with itself. So it's
it's not as a retail of that New Yorker article,
but in advances the investigation as well. Well.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's a terrific piece because you bring in personalities and
of course and at the end and I don't want
to give too much away because I want people to
watch it, then you address the man himself. Are going
in three Uh so there is definitely some conclusion, and
I can tell you're in the room and you address
him head on, and uh, it's just I mean, the
guy has absolutely no shape. So he's talking to these
(04:12):
serial killers. And of course there are families who their
lives have been damaged and just destroyed by these serial killers.
And then this guy starts to profit off it and
become a celebrity with it. And just how sick is
he because his whole story was built on lies. How
he became the serial killer expert, and he was even
(04:34):
plagiarizing people. I mean, he was stealing information from other people.
So how sick is this guy?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
You know? I mean I think that's you know, one
of the things we were trying to navigate is really
trying to, you know, objectively look at him as you know,
you know, what is this what is this pre level
of premeditation, calculation. Is he an evil mastermind or is
this something compulsive and pathological and involuntari a most and
so uh that's that becomes part of the investigation also,
(05:03):
you know, part of the participation of the audience. We're
asking of them to say, Hey, this got mister McGoo
who kind of fell into the secret eyes and grew
them and exploded them and and and caught on that
it's also being working, you know, or is he you know,
closer to Hannibal Lecter to borrow you know, a fictional
character in the zeitgeist again, you know where you know
(05:24):
someone who is you know, a genius, you know, mad genius, evil, calculated, premeditated,
you know, person designing uh this this web of lies
to you know, to create self aggrandizement and build this
career on. So I you know, that question is really
at the core of all of this. And you know
something we asked the audience to help navigate because you know,
(05:46):
you have a very strong reaction to him, as many
people do when they watch. And I think that's part
of you know, the visitation to the audience is that, hey,
you know you come play investigator as well. You know,
you could on your you know, your lie, detect your
test you're put on your antenna and see if you
can catch this guy in a lie? Or is this
or is this you know, something bred from a colonel
of truth. So the series is really smart, it's fun,
(06:09):
it's fast moving, but it's also participatory. So it asks
a lot of the viewers to say, hey, you know, like,
you know, can you kind of can you solve the
crime yourself? And I think that's you know, that's also
a hallmark of good crime storytelling is that it's not
passive watching. It's you know, it's something that's drivening and
you know, asking the audience to you know, to put
on their shlock homes hat and play the ball.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So he has, if I remember correctly, he actually has
been in the room with I think eight.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Serial killers approximately give or take.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
And then by the end of the story, before you
guys nail them, he claims to have met with seventy
seven serial killers.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Do I have those numbers right in the ballpark?
Speaker 4 (06:50):
That's right, he claims in his career, and they always
in the you know, we have all this archival footage,
you know, where the numbers keep morphing and changing but
I think at the peak, you know, he's he claimed
to have not just met, but interviewed over seventy seven.
He claimed to have thousands of hours of interview tape
with you know this, you know, over with his seventy
(07:10):
seven or more serial killers. The Fourth Eye, the investigative
true crime group that started investigating him, they could only
substantiate eight to nine interviews on camera at best, thirteen,
you know, eight or nine interviews are on camera thirteen total.
Maybe he met, but he obviously claimed way way more
(07:30):
than that, you know, because you know, that's a staggering number.
Now to put that into perspective. You know, the mind Hunter,
the you know, the Netflix series is based on you know,
an FBI forensic profiler named John Douglas, you know, one
of the one of the most famous profilers in FBI
history and in the world. He only, you know, in
(07:51):
his book, only claims, not claims, he can substantiate having
interviewed thirty six serial killers. So here's the most renowned
FBI profile ser Mindhunter, with all of the tools, access
and resources f the FBI, and he tapped out at
thirty six. And somehow Borglon you know, got to seventy
seven globally is well you can do the math on that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What I also found amazing in the story was that
Baguan was plagiarizing the true mind hunter, right, I mean,
he was literally taking things out of his books. I
mean he literally lifted, I mean, and he was all
and on top of being a liar, he was also
a platiss too, where he was literally taking things from
what this guy had written and putting it in his
own books.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Well not just what John Douglas had written, but also
there's a very famous South African profilers, doctor Mick Dourius,
who he documentary about spent time in South Africa, you know,
she you know, took him to resolved, solved serial you know,
killer cases, things that had no longer you know, we're
not open cases, and they you know, went around with
(08:54):
other detectives and he profiled each one of these cases.
Later we then claim to help having solved some of
them interview or interrogated, which interrogation is really a term
reserved for someone in law enforcement, not you know, a civilian,
which Burguan is. And he so he claimed, you know,
to have you know, help solve these murders and help
(09:15):
crack these cases and the interrogation interview techniques that the
detectives on the ground South Africa had not thought of,
and all of these or borrowed their stories. So he actually,
you know, it's two things to come out of this
which are significant. One this fourth I coined this term
calling volar divi, which means a stealer of lives. This
(09:37):
is an incredible double entendre when you're talking about serial
killers obviously still lives and mean like the stealer of
like your soul, your actual you know, living breath. But
also when in the context they meant it is the
stealer of lives, that he would steal the stories of
other people. And so with John Douglas, he did that.
With doctor Mickey Pistorius, you know, she wrote her first
(09:58):
manuscript a biography, autobiography of her own story. Is this,
you know, groundbreaking forensic uh psychologist and profiler in South
Africa who have solved innumerable ro color cases in South
Africa and bringing new science to it. And wrote her
you know, her kind of rememboir autobiography called Catch Me
a Killer. And he took that book, asked the manuscript
(10:22):
before it was printed, you know, went off back to
France and then wrote her biography in French about her
essentially in plagiarizing jute passages of her own book, a
yet unpublished book. So he literally steals her, her words,
her stories, her life. Uh, you know, projected onto himself
to a grandize himself. And so yeah, plagiarism, you know,
at Blush seems like a you know, a pretty minor offense,
(10:45):
you know, a grade school offense, but in the context
of how it's deployed to a grandize his career, uh,
a grandize expertise, take credit for things he never took,
you know, possibly have participated in. You know, the crime
gets more and more murky, and the etical crimes get deeper,
you know, and then of progressed into straight moral crimes.
(11:06):
And that's really where you know, we find ourselves trying
to adjudicate borgan Is around his you know, the moral
crime he has committed over time.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, there's some great video in the scene where he
holds the profile's hand, mister story, pronounce your last.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Name for me again.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
It's Pistorias history.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, So Pastoria and he's holding her hand and she's crying.
She's had a crime scene and she's in tears and
he holds her hand and he was like, I know,
and then he drops the bomb, which you set up
at the beginning. But it kind of reminded me about how,
you know, his girlfriend was murdered and he's telling her
I mean, and he's just totally putting himself in her place.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Just a real scumbag.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And he's got no soul, he has no conscious whatsoever.
And what we're going to talk a Ben about next
is about that girlfriend and about the alleged reason why
he got into this business in the first place.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
It's a terrific, terrific series.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It's called kill A Chasing a True crime con Man,
and it's on Hulu. It's streaming right now and you
should watch it more with Ben Celko, the director After
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Speaker 2 (16:25):
Tonight You're on w BZY Killer Lies Chasing a true
crime con man with director Ben Salcoe Stefan Agoin who
he is something else, supposedly an expert on serial killers
and telling many lies himself saying that he met with
up to seventy seven serial killers but actually only really
met with eight. He ended up consulting with law enforcement,
(16:47):
was involved teaching law enforcement and this is a terrific
series on Hulu, three part series that you should watch. So, Ben,
where do we at the beginning? First of all, I
thought it was structured. You did a great job putting
this project together. Other at the beginning, he's on the
typewriter and he's talking about his girlfriend that was killed
in the seventies, and then you read it's re introduced
(17:09):
to us again when he's in South Africa. So fill
us in on that angle of his life.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah, so you know, you know, in you know, in
the latter part, you know, I would say, you know,
after he'd got in his career going into public life. Like,
I think his story has many beginning points, but one
that's important for the series and one that's important in
in the meta conversation. The story you know, tangled with
(17:36):
is you know, starts start with nineteen ninety one. Nineteen
ninety one was a year that you know, Silence of
the Lambs comes out, and that becomes an international hit,
and it becomes this you know, ficialization of you know,
profilers and the FBI serial killers, and it kind of
elevates with you know, Anthony Hopkins performance the serial killer
(17:56):
into this kind of mastermind, genius, charismatic specter that you
know kind of just transcends entertainment and becomes really part
of the cultural zitgeist. I think, you know, true crime
has existed as a genre. Crime fiction has existed as
a genre, you know, for decades before, but this nineteen
ninety one becomes a really important moment and the kind
(18:17):
of cultural consciousness that's globally, that's not just in the US.
Bourguan starts. You know, had been working in a crime
fiction bookstore in Paris that he worked at for years
and years and had a notion through a friend to
make a documentary around serial killers in France who cannot
get access to the prisons in the United States in
(18:37):
the early nineties they would let you in with cameras
to interview all manner of people, and they had the
temerity to get it together. They petitioned a bunch of
prisons in the States and came to the States and
started making a documentary for French television around serial killers,
and he interviewed you know, you know, three of a
very high profile serial killers had temper uh otus tool
(19:01):
injure our shaper. And these are people who had you know,
a lot of notoriety in the criminal justice world, in
the crime fiction world, true true crime world, bursioning true
crime world. Uh and then a pretty exceptional documentary that
about some play in France. But he started to parlay
that into uh, some media attention. He wrote a book
from that, you know, started grabbing more attention, and you know,
(19:25):
true crime starts to take off in a kind of
global phenomenon as a as an interesting genre as television expands,
cable television answers the picture later the Internet, and he's
writing this kind of this true crime wave of expansion
into our kind of you know, audiences fascination, and he's
you know, taking that journey. Now when he's starting to
(19:45):
make these television appearances, you know, he's starting to get
interview questions around the peculiarities of his fixation on serial killers.
And I think this we suspect that it was because
he was starting to you know, put people off or
put people off balance, that he all of a sudden
volunteers that he too is a victim in fact, and
(20:07):
all of a sudden, you know, the hosts of these
shows started straightening him, giving him a different kind of respect.
And the look that he's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Found sympathy was that, and sympathy.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Sympathy exactly so. And you know in the story that
he puts forth is in the seventies while living in
the United States. He had taken a girlfriend or wife
or lover and the you know, the term keeps changing,
not just beyond translation. And he came home one day
and found her decapitated, mutilated, raped, eviscerated. Uh, you know,
(20:41):
just came home with this horrific scene in his home
in California. And that's where his you know, his lover
girlfriend wife was killed. And so in fact, he you know,
was a you know, a survivor, not of a serial
killer attack, but of you know, of a victims you know,
a victim survivor. So he uses that story, which you know,
(21:01):
turns into a thing where he becomes kind of unassailable,
you know, where posts are no longer asking him his
origin story, right, they tell him. They let him do it,
but they don't critique it. They don't research it because
hale cous to me to you know, to press on
someone's pain or trauma or history, you know. And this
is in the mid nineties, and so you know, they
don't have the same tools or research. They're in France.
(21:23):
There's the barrier of language, since it's all happened in America,
and this is all you know, we suspect it very intentional, right,
where he uses his bilingual abilities in English and French
to keep you know, the French, the prying eyes of
the French at bay, because at that point in the
early nineties, you know, the diplomatic language of France, of
Europe is French. That France is not particularly bilingual. Now
(21:46):
you go to France and the whole generation, everyone's speak
perfect English, especially in Paris and all these places. But
you know, for decades it was not this case. And
so if you spoke English, that was a real rarity
in France. And he traded upon that over and over again,
where he was borrowing things in English, taking of as
his own in French because he knew that there'd be
no kind of critique or trail. And there's time went
forward that that started to come apart. But anyway, he
(22:08):
uses the story of his you know, slain lover as
a way to create sympathy too, to make his story
kind of unassailable. And then later in the two thousands
that we see in you know, in our series Kill Lives,
he starts to insinuate himself into survivors groups, family members
who lost someone who was killed by a serial Killer
(22:30):
and gains their trusts. You know, is going attends their
trials as this. You know, there's a group that is
formed to advocate. He's on the board of it, and
he becomes a you know, a kind of face and
a figure of these you know, survivors and you know,
and so when we talk about moral injury at moral crime,
(22:52):
it's really at that. That's the heart of that, where
you know, the betrayal of trust is so egregious and
on such kind of repentant terms that you know, that's
where if you had any tympathy for him in his story,
which we are packing in the third episode to truly
give him, the writer of response a sympathetic lens, as
we give every every person in the sporty, when you
(23:15):
come back to that moral center and his crimes in
that space, it's it's hard to walk that back.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
This guy was he was delusional. I mean, he was
really delusional. Because when when when I saw I heard
the name and I saw the video of Charlie Manson
come into your piece, I said, oh boy, I go
this guy has really lost it. And we're going to
talk about that next with Ben Selko here on WBZ.
Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con man Stefan ba
(23:45):
going on WBZ It's.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Night Side on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Welcome Back Killerlies Chasing a True crime con Man Ben
Selko the director of this terrific series on Hulu streaming
right now.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
You could check it out.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
It's about French serial killer experts savan by Going, who
turned out to be well, quite frankly a fraud, so
made up a lot of this stuff. He met with
eight serial killers, that he met with seventy seven if
an expert became a consultant to police authorities, and then
and then I also want to get to the fact
that he also started to say that he was solving murders.
(24:23):
But when the Charles Manson thing hit, Ben, this is
not a funny topic, but I just insanely laughed out loud. So,
you know, he claims to have met Charles Manson, but
when you nailed him, he told a different story.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Yeah, So his story about Charles Manson is you know,
you know both you know what it makes you sit
up because it's one of the most notorious kind of
cult figures and you know, in American history. But the
short he tells is about how he tried to dominate,
you know, where Charles Manson sat on the back of
his chair to try to dominate, right right, right, right, yeah,
(25:00):
which also the story that John Douglas tells, because John
Douglas actually interviewed Charles Manson, John Douglas, the mind hunter,
the profiler from the FBI, who is you know, a
storied profiler, you know, someone who actually interviewed, you know,
over thirty six the Serokillers is his own right, actually
interviewed Charles Manson. Then the story he tells me is,
you know, his biography is our biography is about how
(25:22):
Manson tried to intimidate if by sitting on the back
of his chair. Because Manson is a pretty slight fellow,
so for Juan would tell that story as that. And
then as you pressed them, he's like, well, I didn't
actually interview him. Act well, I know, I saw him
on the yard of a prison. I was at well,
you know, like you know, the story starts to deteriorate
as you press him on the details, and you know,
(25:44):
this lack of substantiation exists, but that that tells you
the audacity of the live which goes to you know,
some of these adages about in frauds and cons and
scams is like, you know, go big on your lie. Right,
the bigger you go, the more less, the less likely
the audiences to you know, quesh it right. You know
he'll be timid with your live And so he really
embraced that spirit and Manson story is you know, a
(26:05):
complete encapsulation of that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
But what did he do or can you give us
some examples of where he started to take credit I
believe right for solving murders or becoming involved investigations.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yeah, so he certainly was invited by the Gendarmes, which
is a kind of you know, police group in France
and would you know, use his expertise, and usually he
would just reshow his film from nineteen ninety one about
you know, with the American zerial killers and give his
you know, his speech on the profile of you know,
proclivities of serial killers and you know child trauma and
(26:38):
their sexual deviance and fixate on that and that would
be his like teaching and lessons. But where he very
specifically in one radio show you know, detailed you know,
helping solve or elicitly a confession from you know, Stuart
Wilkin who is a serial killer in South Africa. And
the story he told was that he knew that the
(26:59):
victims is to an we're we're children. He solicited the
foot you know, so we're wan claims to have taking
you know, asked the detective on the scenes for photos
of his children, you know, put them all over the
wall of the interview with interrogation room. Uh. And from that,
you know, solicited, you know, triggered this the serial killer
(27:19):
in South Africa and solicted his confession. Now that's you know,
not true because that case had already by the time
he went to South Africa. There was time that case
had already gone to trial till Wilkin was in prison.
He spent time with the detective who put that serial
killer in prison, Uh, who deployed that technique himself. And
so he you know, he appropriates the story of legitimate
(27:42):
law enforcement, you know, claims it as his own as
this kind of mysterious uh. You know, international man of
interrogation and you know Prime Stopper and you know in Bregue,
you know, I pressed them on this. Well, I mean
that's outrageous. Why would you do that? He said, Well,
you know, I can't help myself. I get in front
of an audience and you know, I feel the need
to tell these stories, and you know, it just floods
(28:04):
my mind, you know, comes out of my mouth. It floods,
you know, just floods. I can't It's almost involuntary. I
can't stop myself. And in the third episode, you know,
we try to he tries to explain why as you
go deep into his kind of psychology, his childhood, his parents,
you know, the stories like wow, hotly cal and that's
a remarkable finding in his backstory that you know, helps
(28:26):
him rationalize why he did this. And again never with apology,
never with contrition, just kind of continued rationalization. But the
third episode is a great uh you know, windy backstory
that that tries to poke it origin stories in general,
and poke at his and let him, uh, let the
audience contend with you know, the facts of his background.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
What did you think of him when you met with him?
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Well, it's funny, you know. I give Lauren Collins, the
New Yorker writer, a lot of credit because when she
in twenty twenty two and she did the reporting, she
reached out to him initially, Uh, he didn't get back
to her.
Speaker 9 (29:02):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
And then eventually she did what she normally never does.
This is kind of the midst of COVID. You know,
she just she took a train and a bus to
his town and just kind of pulled up to town
and called him. She says, I think I'm standing outside
of your house. Uh it was the wrong house. And
he said, well, he's gonna be here in fifteen minutes.
I'll see you. And so she went there, you know,
with her research assistant, you know, a young woman from
(29:24):
you know, living in Paris. So it's just two two two,
you know women, you know, going into like you know,
this kind of theater of horrors. As she describes his home,
that was, you know, really impressive. You know. I went
there with you know, you know, a crew of eight
of people, and you know, I'm not a small dude.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And like, yeah, he's not going to do anything to you.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
No, but you know, but despite that, with the full crew,
I you see you play basketball. You've heard the report, Yeah, yeah,
So but I went into the house. I was completely
on edge when I was in his house. His house
is full of of true crime and crime fiction ephemera,
you know, bloody books, and you know, a huge collection
(30:07):
anytime you see someone of the giant Hordish collection of
any Chandre and he had a horror crime fiction like
you know, you see an obsessimist quality there. I was
on edge. You were in the middle of you know,
like you know, western France and some small town and
I was like, you know, he's you know, he took
us around his home. He's you know, he was generous
in that spirit, I guess in his home, but like
(30:27):
he took us into the far reaches of his attic
to show us different collections. And I was on the
edge of the entire time. You know, with time I relaxed,
but you know I found him. I didn't know what
to expect that I wanted to be prepared for anything.
And you know, I don't think there was a material
physical threat, but I was very on edge with spending
time with him.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Well, Ben, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It is a terrific piece of work, and I know
that you've put in a lot of work in this career.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So I want people to watch it. Go check it
out on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Produced by National Geographic Game by Hulu, directed by Ben Selke.
Know Killer Lies Chasing a true crime con man. But
before I let you go. I do have to ask
you that I did notice you are a production assistant.
I believe was it on Meet the Parents?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I was a production assistant I Meet the Parents?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Okay, So here's my question.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
In Twenty eight Days, which I'd loved, by the way,
with Vigo Mortensen and Sandra Bullock, why did you leave
that type of entertainment to go into what you're doing now?
Because I know what you do now takes a lot
of work and it's big. I mean, you know, being
a documentarian right now is really a good place to
be in this business and it's booming quite frankly. People
(31:41):
love documentaries, they love the true crime. But what led
you to go from scripted into this world?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
It's funny, you know. I went to college and studied,
you know, film, and thought I was going to be
a screenwriter, you know, got out of college and realized
they don't give you the keys of the studio, you know,
just as a college with a college degree, right you know,
started teaching, you know, and you know, having time thinking
I was having time to write. I happened to have
Harrison Ford's daughter in my class, and his wife was
(32:11):
a screenwriter. She wrote the team Melissa Mathesons, and so
Be befriended them somehow, and by the grace of the
cinema gods, invited me to work on his film in
nineteen ninety nine called a Random Park. So that was
my entree to the film business as a production assistant.
I went in as what they call silver spoon, someone
(32:32):
who with the nepotism right. So I got into set
and all these hard working production assistants and grinding trying
to get their DGA days, and you know, they and
here I am with a brand new like rebook, you know,
iris and choose and you know, great attitude. I had
screen ground down yet and they were but useless. But
they took me under the wing and I eventually, you know,
I learned the craft and the trade of being a
(32:53):
production assistant and working for assistant directors. But that path
is a really long long path, and I, you know,
ultimately wanted to be a director, a creative And after
about two years of working in documentary, I mean in
scripted films, you know, working with the very best decision directors,
learning a ton about how to run a set, you know,
I bought a camera and started making the first documentary
(33:15):
because I wanted to be literally close to the camera.
I felt like the proximity to the camera was where
the creative decisions were happening, and as a production system
I had access to be near it, but not making decisions,
but by in the documentary I felt like, well, I
can you know, activate my own agency creatively. I didn't
know it would be such a hard, long life of
(33:36):
you know, putting in many, many, many years, but you know,
very you know, have a lot of gratitude for all
the people along the way who you know, helped pull
me along and collaborated to make projects like this one.
But you know, ultimately it was about having kind of
you know, immediacy, uh and being in the center of
the creative process. And that was the part of documentary filmmaking,
storytellings I love, and documentaries you know, in way I
(34:00):
can two thousands felt like the way to be at
that center that you know, where that was the heat
was burning, you know, most intensely, and that's where I
wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Why do you think it's so popular now? And I'll
throw podcasting there as well. I mean my wife who
you know, well, Randy, I mean, she loves true crime podcasts.
We get in the car and I'm like, what are
we listening to? You know, can I just you know,
what are we doing here? And the craziest, creepiest stuff.
People love true crime, but people also love documentaries now,
(34:27):
and I think one of the reasons, I think is
because there's a lot of footage available. Right there's a
lot of there's a lot of great stories, whether it
be from music or from entertainment or from politics. There's
a lot of stories. There's a lot of film footage available,
and a lot of people you can talk to where
you can create a documentary like you have.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
That brings the same drama of a feature film.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Oh Like they say truth is stranger than friction, you
know fiction, and you know, and you know you ultimately
we're most interested in the unknown. We're interested in the
kind of boundaries and depths of human behavior and getting
us close to that kind of flip of the switch
when things, you know, go the other way, when civility
(35:16):
is left and horror and violence, when people want to
know where that edge is. And so true crime nonfiction
allows that safe exploration through you know, human behavior, and
it's like, you know, it's like why we rubber neck
it's why we can't look away. It's because it's a
(35:37):
opportunity to touch death, the ends of finality, to touch
the unknown, to touch what we might be capable of,
or how we might react when when encountering something you know,
so so extreme. And I think that's all of those things.
There's different reasons why people watch through crime while they
watch documentaries, but those those are some in the true
(35:58):
crime space that seem you know, really applicable, really human,
really accessible, and it's fact that you know, it's not
something exotic far away, it's something in our backyards, our neighbors,
our family members, like it's around us, and so understanding
it better baby gives us some feeling of agency and
power that we might be able to sniff it out
or participate or detect it or save ourselves or are
(36:21):
curious about, you know, what our own limits are. How
would we deeled it if we were in the it
was in our face, And so I think that's why
people want to do it. And then people are smart.
They want to outwit the police, they want out with
the investigators, they want to they don't want to be
a mark. And so you know, somehow true crime becomes
like a training ground to to not be a mark
and to to to gain skill and investigation. And you know,
(36:45):
and as a filmmaker, you know, audiences are really smart
right now, and.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
So they are that's exactly right. They are very smart.
You just nailed it. The audience who has become better
educated over time, but.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Not just not just in you know, crime is you
know as a field of forensics, but also in filmmaking.
And so you can't trick an audience, you'll betray it.
You know, you can't participate the way Bourguan it did
and betraying people. As a filmmaker, you can't misdirect them
and and you know you can't, like there's no there's
no cheeko, there's no lazy filmmaking.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
The audiences are too smart and so you have to
respect the hell out of them, and you know and
make work that you know expects a lot of them,
because you know they're educated or smart with both the
craft of filmmaking and and TV as well as you
know around true crime. And so you know you can't
play with them. You have to you have to be
you know, both artful, intelligent and try to stay a
step ahead. But it's very difficult and your audiences are
(37:40):
maximum respect right now. And so the challenge is a.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Filmmaker, Well you did a great job killer lies chasing
a true crime con man and stefan by going he
is this dude is a serial killer expert, but he
was really a fraud and made a lot of it
up and turned out to be quite a sick man.
And you should watch it on Hulu. Produced by National
Geographic and Hulu and it's streaming right now. Three part series.
(38:04):
Well produced, well done, well directed. Ben, Thanks for coming on.
I wish you the best of luck.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Thanks so masche for having me on. And yeah, look
forward to hearing the audience's responses.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
All right, Bet, I'll talk to you soon, buddy, take care.
All right, there's Ben Stelko joining us here. It's a
crazy story, it really is. It's kind of you know,
as I'm watching this someway, where's this going? Okay, we're
talking about serial killers and he's talking to some real
creepy people. But the serial killer expert turned out to
be pretty creeping himself. No, he didn't go as far
(38:39):
as the people he was covering, the serial killers, but
he turned into a serial liar, serial plagiarist, played with
a lot of people's emotions, passed himself off as an expert,
became involved in criminal investigations. And the thing that's really
amazing about this, when things happen like this, nobody questioned them, Yeah, okay,
must be true.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah, they all bought in good stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Check it out Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con
Man and it is streaming on Hulu. Coming up eleven
o'clock tonight, we're gonna talk a little football. Nicole Yang
joins us from the Boston Globe as we get ready
for that Patriot. Somebody asked me today how many games
are the Patriots gonna win? I go, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Five at the most, at the most. And you need
to be okay with that, people, you need to be
okay with that.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Coming up at ten o'clock, I will talk to author
Christy Cashman about her book The Truth About Horses, terrific
story about a fourteen year old girl rhis Tucker. That's
all a ten and I have some news to talk
to you about coming up next, involving that school shooting
in Georgia. On wbz's Night Side.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World
Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Welcome back, Gary Tangway for Dan ray tonight, so an
updated on the Georgia shooting as the father of the
Georgia school suspect has been arrested in charge with second
degree murder amongst the charges. Well, that's one of the chargers,
the father of fourteen year old the fourteen year old
boy called Gray. His father has been arrested and faces
(40:19):
charges including second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter for allowing
his son to possess a weapon. It's the latest example
of prosecutors holding and I'm reading from the Boston Globe,
so just to give them credit, the latest, say, the
example of prosecutors holding parents responsible for their children's actions
in school shootings. We all remember what Michigan right with
(40:39):
the Crumpleys. They were convicted. That was crazy and they
got ten years in prison.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
That was crazy. The mom and dad were like, yeah,
I mean they brought him to school with the Crumblings
and mission. They brought him to school that morning and
said listen, we're worried about your son. They just blew
it off. They just absolutely just blew it up off.
So Colin Gray fifty four years old.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
The father of Colt Gray was charged with four counts
of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree murder, eight
counts of cruelty to children. These charges stem from mister
Gray knowingly allowing his son cult to possess a weapon.
Charges are directly connected to the actions of his son
and allowing him to possess weapon. Now, from what I understand,
(41:28):
there were warning signs with his son Clt before this.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Boy. It's a tough one because.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Look, I have hunters in my family, and when you're
fourteen fifteen years old, that's when you start to go
hunting with your father, your mother, and your uncles and
your brothers and sisters.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
And it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
And I'm fine, you know personally, Like I said, I
have relatives that have guns in the house and they
separate the ammunition from the guns, and they have locked
gun racks and very responsible gun owner.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
There's no problem with that. But there's a history with
the young man. You gotta lock up the guns, you
gotta lock up the guns. I mean, something has to happen.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Because when it comes to America in school shootings and
public shootings, I mean, it is just rampant It is
just scary. Is my numbing that this is happening and
we're numb? I mean, I say my numbing, we're numb
to it? Or another school shooting. Oh okay, we are
absolutely numb to this, which is scary as hell. Maybe
(42:38):
the only way to stop it or prevent it from
happening again is to hold the parents accountable, lock up
the weapons. It's a tough one, but we're in a
desperate time with this, a very desperate time with this,
because this is coming. This has become the norm much
(43:02):
too often. Sure, we'll have more on that coming up
to the News at ten o'clock. Still to come. On
wbz's Night Side, we'll talk about the Patriots upcoming season.
That's at eleven o'clock when Nicole Yang and Christy Cashwo's
going to join me next and Christie does just about everything,
(43:22):
including on a castle. I believe that it's next on WBZ.
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And welcome back Boy, Do we have a story for
you here on WBC's Nightside. Killer Lies Chasing a true
crime con Man from National Geographic and also Hulu. It's
streaming on Hulu right now. I highly recommend it. It
is a three part series. It is riveting, it's well told,
it's well produced, and it's just an unbelievable story. And
the director of this film joining us right now, Ben Selko. Ben,
(00:30):
Welcome to Nightside. I've seen a lot of stuff, Ben
in my life, but this one's a doozy because not
only do you have serial killers and they're extremely bad people,
but then you have another dude that is supposedly doing
something good.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And he's a liar. I mean, have you have you
ever seen anything like this before?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You know?
Speaker 4 (00:55):
I mean yes, I think you can look around in
the American political sphere in all corners and find this
profile character pretty readily. But you're right, I mean this,
You've got, you know, a story, you know, full of
serial killers, and at the heart of it is someone
who is a serial liar, right, who trade trades and
(01:18):
betrayal and you know, in our story that becomes tanam
out and the most important kind of crime that is,
you know, expressed over and over again, repeatedly, and you
know it's something that was really wild and really wild
to try to untangle.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
You know, I'm sure it was. I mean, you must have.
We'll get into how you pull this all together, but
just tell us how, you know, a quick tiase of
what the series is about, and you know how you
came about to develop.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
This so kill Lives Chasing a true Trime true crime
com man is sourced from a twenty twenty two article
by Lauren Collins in The New Yorker and that entitled
that article originally was Murdered, he wrote, and it's about
Stefan bourg Wan, who is a French serial killer expert
(02:12):
who rose to a huge amount of prominence, built a
huge following, you know, nationally in France and you know,
within the true crime world, and you know, for forty
years was really kind of the man on top, you know,
as the go to person around talking about serial killers,
and anytime there's a you know, a national event or
international event, he would be called by radio, which television
(02:34):
to appear. Was a prolific writer and you know, raised
and kept elevating his profile as you know, an expert
on killers, morphing into a profiler, you know, depending on
the you know, the the venue, that forum, the introduction
by the said host that you know, he kind of
title and statue whood, it would elevate and amplify and
(02:56):
grow every time. And so you know, he kind of
was the top king of this kingdom in France for
a very long time until about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty,
when some of his true crime fans, some of his
ardent fans, started tugging on the strings of his story
a little bit, and you know, the needless to say,
(03:17):
the sweater started to come undone and our story details
the story that you know, Lauren Collins wrote The New Yorker,
but also advances the investigation, goes deeper, goes further, you know,
it starts all the way back in the seventies and
brings this story you know, through Lauren's reporting and advances
the investigation you know, until you know, you know, deep
(03:39):
into twenty twenty three, in twenty twenty four, so it
becomes very current and catches up with itself. So it's
it's not as a retail of that New Yorker article,
but in advances the investigation as well. Well.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's a terrific piece because you bring in personalities and
of course and at the end and I don't want
to give too much away because I want people to
watch it, then you address the man himself. Are going
in three Uh so there is definitely some conclusion, and
I can tell you're in the room and you address
him head on, and uh, it's just I mean, the
guy has absolutely no shape. So he's talking to these
(04:12):
serial killers. And of course there are families who their
lives have been damaged and just destroyed by these serial killers.
And then this guy starts to profit off it and
become a celebrity with it. And just how sick is
he because his whole story was built on lies. How
he became the serial killer expert, and he was even
(04:34):
plagiarizing people. I mean, he was stealing information from other people.
So how sick is this guy?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
You know? I mean I think that's you know, one
of the things we were trying to navigate is really
trying to, you know, objectively look at him as you know,
you know, what is this what is this pre level
of premeditation, calculation. Is he an evil mastermind or is
this something compulsive and pathological and involuntari a most and
so uh that's that becomes part of the investigation also,
(05:03):
you know, part of the participation of the audience. We're
asking of them to say, Hey, this got mister McGoo
who kind of fell into the secret eyes and grew
them and exploded them and and and caught on that
it's also being working, you know, or is he you know,
closer to Hannibal Lecter to borrow you know, a fictional
character in the zeitgeist again, you know where you know
(05:24):
someone who is you know, a genius, you know, mad genius, evil, calculated, premeditated,
you know, person designing uh this this web of lies
to you know, to create self aggrandizement and build this
career on. So I you know, that question is really
at the core of all of this. And you know
something we asked the audience to help navigate because you know,
(05:46):
you have a very strong reaction to him, as many
people do when they watch. And I think that's part
of you know, the visitation to the audience is that, hey,
you know you come play investigator as well. You know,
you could on your you know, your lie, detect your
test you're put on your antenna and see if you
can catch this guy in a lie? Or is this
or is this you know, something bred from a colonel
of truth. So the series is really smart, it's fun,
(06:09):
it's fast moving, but it's also participatory. So it asks
a lot of the viewers to say, hey, you know, like,
you know, can you kind of can you solve the
crime yourself? And I think that's you know, that's also
a hallmark of good crime storytelling is that it's not
passive watching. It's you know, it's something that's drivening and
you know, asking the audience to you know, to put
on their shlock homes hat and play the ball.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
So he has, if I remember correctly, he actually has
been in the room with I think eight.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Serial killers approximately give or take.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
And then by the end of the story, before you
guys nail them, he claims to have met with seventy
seven serial killers.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Do I have those numbers right in the ballpark?
Speaker 4 (06:50):
That's right, he claims in his career, and they always
in the you know, we have all this archival footage,
you know, where the numbers keep morphing and changing but
I think at the peak, you know, he's he claimed
to have not just met, but interviewed over seventy seven.
He claimed to have thousands of hours of interview tape
with you know this, you know, over with his seventy
(07:10):
seven or more serial killers. The Fourth Eye, the investigative
true crime group that started investigating him, they could only
substantiate eight to nine interviews on camera at best, thirteen,
you know, eight or nine interviews are on camera thirteen total.
Maybe he met, but he obviously claimed way way more
(07:30):
than that, you know, because you know, that's a staggering number.
Now to put that into perspective. You know, the mind Hunter,
the you know, the Netflix series is based on you know,
an FBI forensic profiler named John Douglas, you know, one
of the one of the most famous profilers in FBI
history and in the world. He only, you know, in
(07:51):
his book, only claims, not claims, he can substantiate having
interviewed thirty six serial killers. So here's the most renowned
FBI profile ser Mindhunter, with all of the tools, access
and resources f the FBI, and he tapped out at
thirty six. And somehow Borglon you know, got to seventy
seven globally is well you can do the math on that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What I also found amazing in the story was that
Baguan was plagiarizing the true mind hunter, right, I mean,
he was literally taking things out of his books. I
mean he literally lifted, I mean, and he was all
and on top of being a liar, he was also
a platiss too, where he was literally taking things from
what this guy had written and putting it in his
own books.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Well not just what John Douglas had written, but also
there's a very famous South African profilers, doctor Mick Dourius,
who he documentary about spent time in South Africa, you know,
she you know, took him to resolved, solved serial you know,
killer cases, things that had no longer you know, we're
not open cases, and they you know, went around with
(08:54):
other detectives and he profiled each one of these cases.
Later we then claim to help having solved some of
them interview or interrogated, which interrogation is really a term
reserved for someone in law enforcement, not you know, a civilian,
which Burguan is. And he so he claimed, you know,
to have you know, help solve these murders and help
(09:15):
crack these cases and the interrogation interview techniques that the
detectives on the ground South Africa had not thought of,
and all of these or borrowed their stories. So he actually,
you know, it's two things to come out of this
which are significant. One this fourth I coined this term
calling volar divi, which means a stealer of lives. This
(09:37):
is an incredible double entendre when you're talking about serial
killers obviously still lives and mean like the stealer of
like your soul, your actual you know, living breath. But
also when in the context they meant it is the
stealer of lives, that he would steal the stories of
other people. And so with John Douglas, he did that.
With doctor Mickey Pistorius, you know, she wrote her first
(09:58):
manuscript a biography, autobiography of her own story. Is this,
you know, groundbreaking forensic uh psychologist and profiler in South
Africa who have solved innumerable ro color cases in South
Africa and bringing new science to it. And wrote her
you know, her kind of rememboir autobiography called Catch Me
a Killer. And he took that book, asked the manuscript
(10:22):
before it was printed, you know, went off back to
France and then wrote her biography in French about her
essentially in plagiarizing jute passages of her own book, a
yet unpublished book. So he literally steals her, her words,
her stories, her life. Uh, you know, projected onto himself
to a grandize himself. And so yeah, plagiarism, you know,
at Blush seems like a you know, a pretty minor offense,
(10:45):
you know, a grade school offense, but in the context
of how it's deployed to a grandize his career, uh,
a grandize expertise, take credit for things he never took,
you know, possibly have participated in. You know, the crime
gets more and more murky, and the etical crimes get deeper,
you know, and then of progressed into straight moral crimes.
(11:06):
And that's really where you know, we find ourselves trying
to adjudicate borgan Is around his you know, the moral
crime he has committed over time.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, there's some great video in the scene where he
holds the profile's hand, mister story, pronounce your last.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Name for me again.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
It's Pistorias history.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, So Pastoria and he's holding her hand and she's crying.
She's had a crime scene and she's in tears and
he holds her hand and he was like, I know,
and then he drops the bomb, which you set up
at the beginning. But it kind of reminded me about how,
you know, his girlfriend was murdered and he's telling her
I mean, and he's just totally putting himself in her place.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Just a real scumbag.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And he's got no soul, he has no conscious whatsoever.
And what we're going to talk a Ben about next
is about that girlfriend and about the alleged reason why
he got into this business in the first place.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
It's a terrific, terrific series.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It's called kill A Chasing a True crime con Man,
and it's on Hulu. It's streaming right now and you
should watch it more with Ben Celko, the director After
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Speaker 3 (16:23):
Hey, welcome back Gary Tangley for Dan Ray.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Tonight You're on w BZY Killer Lies Chasing a true
crime con man with director Ben Salcoe Stefan Agoin who
he is something else, supposedly an expert on serial killers
and telling many lies himself saying that he met with
up to seventy seven serial killers but actually only really
met with eight. He ended up consulting with law enforcement,
(16:47):
was involved teaching law enforcement and this is a terrific
series on Hulu, three part series that you should watch. So, Ben,
where do we at the beginning? First of all, I
thought it was structured. You did a great job putting
this project together. Other at the beginning, he's on the
typewriter and he's talking about his girlfriend that was killed
in the seventies, and then you read it's re introduced
(17:09):
to us again when he's in South Africa. So fill
us in on that angle of his life.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah, so you know, you know, in you know, in
the latter part, you know, I would say, you know,
after he'd got in his career going into public life. Like,
I think his story has many beginning points, but one
that's important for the series and one that's important in
in the meta conversation. The story you know, tangled with
(17:36):
is you know, starts start with nineteen ninety one. Nineteen
ninety one was a year that you know, Silence of
the Lambs comes out, and that becomes an international hit,
and it becomes this you know, ficialization of you know,
profilers and the FBI serial killers, and it kind of
elevates with you know, Anthony Hopkins performance the serial killer
(17:56):
into this kind of mastermind, genius, charismatic specter that you
know kind of just transcends entertainment and becomes really part
of the cultural zitgeist. I think, you know, true crime
has existed as a genre. Crime fiction has existed as
a genre, you know, for decades before, but this nineteen
ninety one becomes a really important moment and the kind
(18:17):
of cultural consciousness that's globally, that's not just in the US.
Bourguan starts. You know, had been working in a crime
fiction bookstore in Paris that he worked at for years
and years and had a notion through a friend to
make a documentary around serial killers in France who cannot
get access to the prisons in the United States in
(18:37):
the early nineties they would let you in with cameras
to interview all manner of people, and they had the
temerity to get it together. They petitioned a bunch of
prisons in the States and came to the States and
started making a documentary for French television around serial killers,
and he interviewed you know, you know, three of a
very high profile serial killers had temper uh otus tool
(19:01):
injure our shaper. And these are people who had you know,
a lot of notoriety in the criminal justice world, in
the crime fiction world, true true crime world, bursioning true
crime world. Uh and then a pretty exceptional documentary that
about some play in France. But he started to parlay
that into uh, some media attention. He wrote a book
from that, you know, started grabbing more attention, and you know,
(19:25):
true crime starts to take off in a kind of
global phenomenon as a as an interesting genre as television expands,
cable television answers the picture later the Internet, and he's
writing this kind of this true crime wave of expansion
into our kind of you know, audiences fascination, and he's
you know, taking that journey. Now when he's starting to
(19:45):
make these television appearances, you know, he's starting to get
interview questions around the peculiarities of his fixation on serial killers.
And I think this we suspect that it was because
he was starting to you know, put people off or
put people off balance, that he all of a sudden
volunteers that he too is a victim in fact, and
(20:07):
all of a sudden, you know, the hosts of these
shows started straightening him, giving him a different kind of respect.
And the look that he's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Found sympathy was that, and sympathy.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Sympathy exactly so. And you know in the story that
he puts forth is in the seventies while living in
the United States. He had taken a girlfriend or wife
or lover and the you know, the term keeps changing,
not just beyond translation. And he came home one day
and found her decapitated, mutilated, raped, eviscerated. Uh, you know,
(20:41):
just came home with this horrific scene in his home
in California. And that's where his you know, his lover
girlfriend wife was killed. And so in fact, he you know,
was a you know, a survivor, not of a serial
killer attack, but of you know, of a victims you know,
a victim survivor. So he uses that story, which you know,
(21:01):
turns into a thing where he becomes kind of unassailable,
you know, where posts are no longer asking him his
origin story, right, they tell him. They let him do it,
but they don't critique it. They don't research it because
hale cous to me to you know, to press on
someone's pain or trauma or history, you know. And this
is in the mid nineties, and so you know, they
don't have the same tools or research. They're in France.
(21:23):
There's the barrier of language, since it's all happened in America,
and this is all you know, we suspect it very intentional, right,
where he uses his bilingual abilities in English and French
to keep you know, the French, the prying eyes of
the French at bay, because at that point in the
early nineties, you know, the diplomatic language of France, of
Europe is French. That France is not particularly bilingual. Now
(21:46):
you go to France and the whole generation, everyone's speak
perfect English, especially in Paris and all these places. But
you know, for decades it was not this case. And
so if you spoke English, that was a real rarity
in France. And he traded upon that over and over again,
where he was borrowing things in English, taking of as
his own in French because he knew that there'd be
no kind of critique or trail. And there's time went
forward that that started to come apart. But anyway, he
(22:08):
uses the story of his you know, slain lover as
a way to create sympathy too, to make his story
kind of unassailable. And then later in the two thousands
that we see in you know, in our series Kill Lives,
he starts to insinuate himself into survivors groups, family members
who lost someone who was killed by a serial Killer
(22:30):
and gains their trusts. You know, is going attends their
trials as this. You know, there's a group that is
formed to advocate. He's on the board of it, and
he becomes a you know, a kind of face and
a figure of these you know, survivors and you know,
and so when we talk about moral injury at moral crime,
(22:52):
it's really at that. That's the heart of that, where
you know, the betrayal of trust is so egregious and
on such kind of repentant terms that you know, that's
where if you had any tympathy for him in his story,
which we are packing in the third episode to truly
give him, the writer of response a sympathetic lens, as
we give every every person in the sporty, when you
(23:15):
come back to that moral center and his crimes in
that space, it's it's hard to walk that back.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
This guy was he was delusional. I mean, he was
really delusional. Because when when when I saw I heard
the name and I saw the video of Charlie Manson
come into your piece, I said, oh boy, I go
this guy has really lost it. And we're going to
talk about that next with Ben Selko here on WBZ.
Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con man Stefan ba
(23:45):
going on WBZ It's.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Night Side on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Welcome Back Killerlies Chasing a True crime con Man Ben
Selko the director of this terrific series on Hulu streaming
right now.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
You could check it out.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
It's about French serial killer experts savan by Going, who
turned out to be well, quite frankly a fraud, so
made up a lot of this stuff. He met with
eight serial killers, that he met with seventy seven if
an expert became a consultant to police authorities, and then
and then I also want to get to the fact
that he also started to say that he was solving murders.
(24:23):
But when the Charles Manson thing hit, Ben, this is
not a funny topic, but I just insanely laughed out loud. So,
you know, he claims to have met Charles Manson, but
when you nailed him, he told a different story.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Yeah, So his story about Charles Manson is you know,
you know both you know what it makes you sit
up because it's one of the most notorious kind of
cult figures and you know, in American history. But the
short he tells is about how he tried to dominate,
you know, where Charles Manson sat on the back of
his chair to try to dominate, right right, right, right, yeah,
(25:00):
which also the story that John Douglas tells, because John
Douglas actually interviewed Charles Manson, John Douglas, the mind hunter,
the profiler from the FBI, who is you know, a
storied profiler, you know, someone who actually interviewed, you know,
over thirty six the Serokillers is his own right, actually
interviewed Charles Manson. Then the story he tells me is,
you know, his biography is our biography is about how
(25:22):
Manson tried to intimidate if by sitting on the back
of his chair. Because Manson is a pretty slight fellow,
so for Juan would tell that story as that. And
then as you pressed them, he's like, well, I didn't
actually interview him. Act well, I know, I saw him
on the yard of a prison. I was at well,
you know, like you know, the story starts to deteriorate
as you press him on the details, and you know,
(25:44):
this lack of substantiation exists, but that that tells you
the audacity of the live which goes to you know,
some of these adages about in frauds and cons and
scams is like, you know, go big on your lie. Right,
the bigger you go, the more less, the less likely
the audiences to you know, quesh it right. You know
he'll be timid with your live And so he really
embraced that spirit and Manson story is you know, a
(26:05):
complete encapsulation of that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
But what did he do or can you give us
some examples of where he started to take credit I
believe right for solving murders or becoming involved investigations.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yeah, so he certainly was invited by the Gendarmes, which
is a kind of you know, police group in France
and would you know, use his expertise, and usually he
would just reshow his film from nineteen ninety one about
you know, with the American zerial killers and give his
you know, his speech on the profile of you know,
proclivities of serial killers and you know child trauma and
(26:38):
their sexual deviance and fixate on that and that would
be his like teaching and lessons. But where he very
specifically in one radio show you know, detailed you know,
helping solve or elicitly a confession from you know, Stuart
Wilkin who is a serial killer in South Africa. And
the story he told was that he knew that the
(26:59):
victims is to an we're we're children. He solicited the
foot you know, so we're wan claims to have taking
you know, asked the detective on the scenes for photos
of his children, you know, put them all over the
wall of the interview with interrogation room. Uh. And from that,
you know, solicited, you know, triggered this the serial killer
(27:19):
in South Africa and solicted his confession. Now that's you know,
not true because that case had already by the time
he went to South Africa. There was time that case
had already gone to trial till Wilkin was in prison.
He spent time with the detective who put that serial
killer in prison, Uh, who deployed that technique himself. And
so he you know, he appropriates the story of legitimate
(27:42):
law enforcement, you know, claims it as his own as
this kind of mysterious uh. You know, international man of
interrogation and you know Prime Stopper and you know in Bregue,
you know, I pressed them on this. Well, I mean
that's outrageous. Why would you do that? He said, Well,
you know, I can't help myself. I get in front
of an audience and you know, I feel the need
to tell these stories, and you know, it just floods
(28:04):
my mind, you know, comes out of my mouth. It floods,
you know, just floods. I can't It's almost involuntary. I
can't stop myself. And in the third episode, you know,
we try to he tries to explain why as you
go deep into his kind of psychology, his childhood, his parents,
you know, the stories like wow, hotly cal and that's
a remarkable finding in his backstory that you know, helps
(28:26):
him rationalize why he did this. And again never with apology,
never with contrition, just kind of continued rationalization. But the
third episode is a great uh you know, windy backstory
that that tries to poke it origin stories in general,
and poke at his and let him, uh, let the
audience contend with you know, the facts of his background.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
What did you think of him when you met with him?
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Well, it's funny, you know. I give Lauren Collins, the
New Yorker writer, a lot of credit because when she
in twenty twenty two and she did the reporting, she
reached out to him initially, Uh, he didn't get back
to her.
Speaker 9 (29:02):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
And then eventually she did what she normally never does.
This is kind of the midst of COVID. You know,
she just she took a train and a bus to
his town and just kind of pulled up to town
and called him. She says, I think I'm standing outside
of your house. Uh it was the wrong house. And
he said, well, he's gonna be here in fifteen minutes.
I'll see you. And so she went there, you know,
with her research assistant, you know, a young woman from
(29:24):
you know, living in Paris. So it's just two two two,
you know women, you know, going into like you know,
this kind of theater of horrors. As she describes his home,
that was, you know, really impressive. You know. I went
there with you know, you know, a crew of eight
of people, and you know, I'm not a small dude.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And like, yeah, he's not going to do anything to you.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
No, but you know, but despite that, with the full crew,
I you see you play basketball. You've heard the report, Yeah, yeah,
So but I went into the house. I was completely
on edge when I was in his house. His house
is full of of true crime and crime fiction ephemera,
you know, bloody books, and you know, a huge collection
(30:07):
anytime you see someone of the giant Hordish collection of
any Chandre and he had a horror crime fiction like
you know, you see an obsessimist quality there. I was
on edge. You were in the middle of you know,
like you know, western France and some small town and
I was like, you know, he's you know, he took
us around his home. He's you know, he was generous
in that spirit, I guess in his home, but like
(30:27):
he took us into the far reaches of his attic
to show us different collections. And I was on the
edge of the entire time. You know, with time I relaxed,
but you know I found him. I didn't know what
to expect that I wanted to be prepared for anything.
And you know, I don't think there was a material
physical threat, but I was very on edge with spending
time with him.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Well, Ben, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It is a terrific piece of work, and I know
that you've put in a lot of work in this career.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So I want people to watch it. Go check it
out on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Produced by National Geographic Game by Hulu, directed by Ben Selke.
Know Killer Lies Chasing a true crime con man. But
before I let you go. I do have to ask
you that I did notice you are a production assistant.
I believe was it on Meet the Parents?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I was a production assistant I Meet the Parents?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Okay, So here's my question.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
In Twenty eight Days, which I'd loved, by the way,
with Vigo Mortensen and Sandra Bullock, why did you leave
that type of entertainment to go into what you're doing now?
Because I know what you do now takes a lot
of work and it's big. I mean, you know, being
a documentarian right now is really a good place to
be in this business and it's booming quite frankly. People
(31:41):
love documentaries, they love the true crime. But what led
you to go from scripted into this world?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
It's funny, you know. I went to college and studied,
you know, film, and thought I was going to be
a screenwriter, you know, got out of college and realized
they don't give you the keys of the studio, you know,
just as a college with a college degree, right you know,
started teaching, you know, and you know, having time thinking
I was having time to write. I happened to have
Harrison Ford's daughter in my class, and his wife was
(32:11):
a screenwriter. She wrote the team Melissa Mathesons, and so
Be befriended them somehow, and by the grace of the
cinema gods, invited me to work on his film in
nineteen ninety nine called a Random Park. So that was
my entree to the film business as a production assistant.
I went in as what they call silver spoon, someone
(32:32):
who with the nepotism right. So I got into set
and all these hard working production assistants and grinding trying
to get their DGA days, and you know, they and
here I am with a brand new like rebook, you know,
iris and choose and you know, great attitude. I had
screen ground down yet and they were but useless. But
they took me under the wing and I eventually, you know,
I learned the craft and the trade of being a
(32:53):
production assistant and working for assistant directors. But that path
is a really long long path, and I, you know,
ultimately wanted to be a director, a creative And after
about two years of working in documentary, I mean in
scripted films, you know, working with the very best decision directors,
learning a ton about how to run a set, you know,
I bought a camera and started making the first documentary
(33:15):
because I wanted to be literally close to the camera.
I felt like the proximity to the camera was where
the creative decisions were happening, and as a production system
I had access to be near it, but not making decisions,
but by in the documentary I felt like, well, I
can you know, activate my own agency creatively. I didn't
know it would be such a hard, long life of
(33:36):
you know, putting in many, many, many years, but you know,
very you know, have a lot of gratitude for all
the people along the way who you know, helped pull
me along and collaborated to make projects like this one.
But you know, ultimately it was about having kind of
you know, immediacy, uh and being in the center of
the creative process. And that was the part of documentary filmmaking,
storytellings I love, and documentaries you know, in way I
(34:00):
can two thousands felt like the way to be at
that center that you know, where that was the heat
was burning, you know, most intensely, and that's where I
wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Why do you think it's so popular now? And I'll
throw podcasting there as well. I mean my wife who
you know, well, Randy, I mean, she loves true crime podcasts.
We get in the car and I'm like, what are
we listening to? You know, can I just you know,
what are we doing here? And the craziest, creepiest stuff.
People love true crime, but people also love documentaries now,
(34:27):
and I think one of the reasons, I think is
because there's a lot of footage available. Right there's a
lot of there's a lot of great stories, whether it
be from music or from entertainment or from politics. There's
a lot of stories. There's a lot of film footage available,
and a lot of people you can talk to where
you can create a documentary like you have.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
That brings the same drama of a feature film.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Oh Like they say truth is stranger than friction, you
know fiction, and you know, and you know you ultimately
we're most interested in the unknown. We're interested in the
kind of boundaries and depths of human behavior and getting
us close to that kind of flip of the switch
when things, you know, go the other way, when civility
(35:16):
is left and horror and violence, when people want to
know where that edge is. And so true crime nonfiction
allows that safe exploration through you know, human behavior, and
it's like, you know, it's like why we rubber neck
it's why we can't look away. It's because it's a
(35:37):
opportunity to touch death, the ends of finality, to touch
the unknown, to touch what we might be capable of,
or how we might react when when encountering something you know,
so so extreme. And I think that's all of those things.
There's different reasons why people watch through crime while they
watch documentaries, but those those are some in the true
(35:58):
crime space that seem you know, really applicable, really human,
really accessible, and it's fact that you know, it's not
something exotic far away, it's something in our backyards, our neighbors,
our family members, like it's around us, and so understanding
it better baby gives us some feeling of agency and
power that we might be able to sniff it out
or participate or detect it or save ourselves or are
(36:21):
curious about, you know, what our own limits are. How
would we deeled it if we were in the it
was in our face, And so I think that's why
people want to do it. And then people are smart.
They want to outwit the police, they want out with
the investigators, they want to they don't want to be
a mark. And so you know, somehow true crime becomes
like a training ground to to not be a mark
and to to to gain skill and investigation. And you know,
(36:45):
and as a filmmaker, you know, audiences are really smart
right now, and.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
So they are that's exactly right. They are very smart.
You just nailed it. The audience who has become better
educated over time, but.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Not just not just in you know, crime is you
know as a field of forensics, but also in filmmaking.
And so you can't trick an audience, you'll betray it.
You know, you can't participate the way Bourguan it did
and betraying people. As a filmmaker, you can't misdirect them
and and you know you can't, like there's no there's
no cheeko, there's no lazy filmmaking.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
The audiences are too smart and so you have to
respect the hell out of them, and you know and
make work that you know expects a lot of them,
because you know they're educated or smart with both the
craft of filmmaking and and TV as well as you
know around true crime. And so you know you can't
play with them. You have to you have to be
you know, both artful, intelligent and try to stay a
step ahead. But it's very difficult and your audiences are
(37:40):
maximum respect right now. And so the challenge is a.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Filmmaker, Well you did a great job killer lies chasing
a true crime con man and stefan by going he
is this dude is a serial killer expert, but he
was really a fraud and made a lot of it
up and turned out to be quite a sick man.
And you should watch it on Hulu. Produced by National
Geographic and Hulu and it's streaming right now. Three part series.
(38:04):
Well produced, well done, well directed. Ben, Thanks for coming on.
I wish you the best of luck.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Thanks so masche for having me on. And yeah, look
forward to hearing the audience's responses.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
All right, Bet, I'll talk to you soon, buddy, take care.
All right, there's Ben Stelko joining us here. It's a
crazy story, it really is. It's kind of you know,
as I'm watching this someway, where's this going? Okay, we're
talking about serial killers and he's talking to some real
creepy people. But the serial killer expert turned out to
be pretty creeping himself. No, he didn't go as far
(38:39):
as the people he was covering, the serial killers, but
he turned into a serial liar, serial plagiarist, played with
a lot of people's emotions, passed himself off as an expert,
became involved in criminal investigations. And the thing that's really
amazing about this, when things happen like this, nobody questioned them, Yeah, okay,
must be true.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah, they all bought in good stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Check it out Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con
Man and it is streaming on Hulu. Coming up eleven
o'clock tonight, we're gonna talk a little football. Nicole Yang
joins us from the Boston Globe as we get ready
for that Patriot. Somebody asked me today how many games
are the Patriots gonna win? I go, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Five at the most, at the most. And you need
to be okay with that, people, you need to be
okay with that.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Coming up at ten o'clock, I will talk to author
Christy Cashman about her book The Truth About Horses, terrific
story about a fourteen year old girl rhis Tucker. That's
all a ten and I have some news to talk
to you about coming up next, involving that school shooting
in Georgia. On wbz's Night Side.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World
Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Welcome back, Gary Tangway for Dan ray tonight, so an
updated on the Georgia shooting as the father of the
Georgia school suspect has been arrested in charge with second
degree murder amongst the charges. Well, that's one of the chargers,
the father of fourteen year old the fourteen year old
boy called Gray. His father has been arrested and faces
(40:19):
charges including second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter for allowing
his son to possess a weapon. It's the latest example
of prosecutors holding and I'm reading from the Boston Globe,
so just to give them credit, the latest, say, the
example of prosecutors holding parents responsible for their children's actions
in school shootings. We all remember what Michigan right with
(40:39):
the Crumpleys. They were convicted. That was crazy and they
got ten years in prison.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
That was crazy. The mom and dad were like, yeah,
I mean they brought him to school with the Crumblings
and mission. They brought him to school that morning and
said listen, we're worried about your son. They just blew
it off. They just absolutely just blew it up off.
So Colin Gray fifty four years old.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
The father of Colt Gray was charged with four counts
of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree murder, eight
counts of cruelty to children. These charges stem from mister
Gray knowingly allowing his son cult to possess a weapon.
Charges are directly connected to the actions of his son
and allowing him to possess weapon. Now, from what I understand,
(41:28):
there were warning signs with his son Clt before this.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Boy. It's a tough one because.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Look, I have hunters in my family, and when you're
fourteen fifteen years old, that's when you start to go
hunting with your father, your mother, and your uncles and
your brothers and sisters.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
And it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
And I'm fine, you know personally, Like I said, I
have relatives that have guns in the house and they
separate the ammunition from the guns, and they have locked
gun racks and very responsible gun owner.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
There's no problem with that. But there's a history with
the young man. You gotta lock up the guns, you
gotta lock up the guns. I mean, something has to happen.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Because when it comes to America in school shootings and
public shootings, I mean, it is just rampant It is
just scary. Is my numbing that this is happening and
we're numb? I mean, I say my numbing, we're numb
to it? Or another school shooting. Oh okay, we are
absolutely numb to this, which is scary as hell. Maybe
(42:38):
the only way to stop it or prevent it from
happening again is to hold the parents accountable, lock up
the weapons. It's a tough one, but we're in a
desperate time with this, a very desperate time with this,
because this is coming. This has become the norm much
(43:02):
too often. Sure, we'll have more on that coming up
to the News at ten o'clock. Still to come. On
wbz's Night Side, we'll talk about the Patriots upcoming season.
That's at eleven o'clock when Nicole Yang and Christy Cashwo's
going to join me next and Christie does just about everything,
(43:22):
including on a castle. I believe that it's next on WBZ.
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