October 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Last weekend at the Arlington Street Church in Boston, a number of white clergy members gathered to sign an atonement statement formally apologizing for their church’s complicity in slavery and its legacy. Black faith leaders including, Rev. Kevin Peterson, were also in attendance to sign the atonement document as witnesses. Rev. Peterson joined Dan on this “important first step.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's on Boston, all right, welcome back. We have touched
on this topic before, but we haven't talked about reparations. Recently,
joining me is Reverend Kevin Peterson, who has been an
advocate for reparations for slavery and also has been an
(00:24):
advocate for changing the name of Fannel Hall because it's
named after Peter Fannel, a Bostonian from the middle of
the eighteenth century who owned slaves. Reverend Peterson, welcome back
to Nightside.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you, Dan. I'm glad to be back on again.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I know that you were involved in an event on
Saturday at the Arlington Street Church and I was surprised
how well and I was disappointed, But I don't know
how you felt about it. Can generate. The only media
coverage that I could see if it was some coverage
from WBZ news radio. It looked as if the local
(01:08):
TV stations in both The Globe and The Herald chose
not to cover the event. Did I miss a coverage that?
Because I was looking today to try to do a
little research on it, I couldn't find anything other than
the WBZ news report.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, No, you didn't miss the coverage that scantily appeared
related to this very historic event on Friday.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Let me for folks who might have missed it, I'm
going to ask Rob to play cut thirty six. This
was Kendall Mule's wrap, just to kind of set it
up so people know what we're talking about and then
we can get into get into the issues. Why don't
you play cut thirty six please? Rob?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
There was a dark history behind many of the points
of light that are Boston's churches.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
White churches in Boston were founded really in the colonial
era on the proceeds of the slave trade.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That's Reverend John Gibbons with other members of Boston's white
clergy gathered at the Arlington Street Church to sign an
atonement statement formally apologizing for their church's complicity and slavery
and its legacy. Also, it's anywhere black faith leaders who
signed the document his witnesses, among them Reverend Kevin Peterson,
who calls this an important first step.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
The second part is reparations, restoring what is owed to
those who were harmed. And then the third part of
this process is reconciliation to come in together of whites
and blacks.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Peterson says today's proceedings are the first of their kind
in the nation's history. Kendall Bulden w Busy Boston's news.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Radio, so that this was Saturday after I guess it
was Saturday afternoon. It was an indoor events, so I'm
not sure what time lest I think it was Saturday afternoon.
And there was a letter, a pretty long statement called
the Confession of Spiritual Sin and a call to sacred atonement,
reparations and reconciliation from predominantly white churches in metropolitan Boston. Kevin,
(03:02):
how many churches were represented at the ceremony on Saturday?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It was just syh of forty churches, forty faith leaders,
white faith leaders from uh some of some of them
from the downtown churches at Boston who had a direct
connection to the legacy of Lomny.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Denominations were were represented? Were they mostly.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I would say about yeah, Protestant, Protestant, No, no, no.
Catholic representation of the The Catholic Church has talked about
reparations and repair and addressing the evils, and.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So most of the most of the churches would have
dated back to I guess the the early eighteenth century.
Is that you know, I'm trying to some of the
church content context here.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes, some of some of the churches date back to
the colonial air where slavery existed. In those churches, including
King's Chapel and Old South Church UH, the Old North Church. UH,
they were involved in one way or another in the
Transatlantic slave trade. Either pastors owned slaves or slaves worked
(04:22):
in those sacred edifices, or they profited indirectly through through
the sale of slaves. Other churches who signed on to
this document or signing on because they were confessing the
sin of being associated with the perpetuation of systemic racism
(04:44):
over the last three centuries. So while those churches don't
date back or some of those churches don't date back
to the colonial area of era, they expressed apology and
remorse and renouncement because during during the three centuries of
of anti black oppression in Boston, they in some ways
stood silent.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Okay, So did I know? And again, I we've talked
about this before, and I want to get to phone
callers as well. I know that when we last talked,
I think it was a few months ago, you and
others had come up with a figure of about fifteen
billion dollars and that was a figure that just for
(05:27):
discussion purposes you felt would be an appropriate figure for
Is that the city of Boston or is that easterns
or New England?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes, no, the city of Boston.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Okay, okay, no problem. So did any of these churches.
It's one thing to sign a document. Did any of
these churches make an offer of a penance? Since we
put it in a spiritual sense and say, hey, well,
reparations women, I'm using I'm using it kind of in
the context of penance for the sins of their predecessors.
(06:05):
And none of the ministers who signed this, I'm sure
ever had anything to do directly with the slave trade,
but they now represent those churches. Again, did any of
them say, hey, we pledge or on behalf of our congregation,
we pledge x numbers of dollars to the establishment of
(06:26):
a fund or was it all just? And again I
want to say simply, but was it all just the
signing of a document lamenting what had happened without offering
any again, actual financial support.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
The answer is simply put, Yes, there was a very
great need and there's very it's ceiling. It's important for
the churches to make us their first move penance acknowledgement, apology,
atonement as part of the process of repair. That's reparations,
(07:06):
that's the penance you talk about, and then we move
on to reconciliation. So the dependance or the repair that's
been committed is up to fifty million dollars of a
commitment to from the collective of churches, most of which
are connected to the slave trade translated strange thing. So
it's fifty million dollars that over the next two years
(07:28):
is forthcoming in terms of payments into Boston's black community.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, So you broke up with me, So it's the
commitment is fifty five million dollars over the next two years.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Now, in the coming years, a commitment of fifty five
zero fifty millions will be committed to Boston's black community
and so a number of churches, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so when you say coming years, there's no is
not a time specific it's at some point.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Well informally, the the two undred and fiftieth anniversary of
the Nation has two years from now.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, that's where we're coming hard upon that because we
got the Boston Tea Party, uh fifty anniversary of the
Tea Party in December of this year. So it's a
two and a half two and a half months from now.
So at this point, where will that money be deposited
and how will it be distributed, assuming that it actually materializes.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And Uh, well, we're we're.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Or if there's not a plan prepared, that's fine. I'm
not trying to put you on the spot. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, we're confident that it will materialize. Uh, these churches
of the Episcopal Church, the Old South Church, others have
have stated in meetings that they're prepared to make this commitment. Uh,
A mechanism a has not been clearly articulated in terms
(09:04):
of how it gets into the black community. Usage of
these funds have not been clearly articulated. But we were
anticipating a, you know, a historic investment in the black community.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Who would be able could we make a little news
here and could you share with us maybe the the
the amount of the commitment of let us say, the
top three churches or the top three you know religions,
what has been committed specifically.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
No, I'm not prepared to do that at this point,
but I am prepared to say I'm prepared to say
with confidence that up to fifty million dollars will be
invested from across the denominations, the Episcopal Church and in
other Protestant churches that that date back. Kay, I will
(10:01):
say I would say, I will say that King's Chapel
is involved, in Old South Church and in Trinity Church.
They're all involved in contributing to this initial pool of
fifty million dollars, which will go to things like economic
development and housing and maybe some cash payouts into the
black community.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But I just, I just you know, want to make
very make clear my question. So, yes, you cannot tell
us that a specific either individual church such as.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, I won't put a number to it, but I
won't put a number to it. But I will say
that Old South Church, UH, Trinity and King's Chapel are
churches that have that have committed to monetary offerings in
wake of.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Their specifically In other words, it's one thing to say, yeah,
we're going to try to do something. It's one thing
to say we're going to make a contribution for reparations.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Of this is what the church, This is what these
churches are doing. Yeah, I don't want to pin a
specific number on one particular church.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No, No, I understand, I'm I'm just changing the question
a little bit because it's to me, it's fascinating. If
it's one thing for churches to sign a document or
ministers to sign a document and bemoan the terrible things
that happened, it's quite another then for someone to say
we should raise, you know, as a start, fifty million
dollars towards the figure of five billion dollars. But I
(11:34):
just want to make sure I understand that, and if
you're not prepared to answer a specific I get that,
and I accept that. But a the churches Protestant churches
in Boston that have said we commit X to get
to fifty million dollars, there's got to be some substantial commitments.
Are the names of churches and amounts on a piece
(11:57):
of paper that you don't want to disclose to us,
which I understand. But you know that this church has
pledged X. This church has pledged yuh, and this church
has pledged has pledged Z.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
That' said exactly, yes.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Okay, So so you have a good idea that this
fifty million can be met. Okay, great, let's let's take
some phone calls. We got to take a break. My
guest is Reverend Kevin Peterson. He believes that a figure
of fifteen billion dollars is.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, let me correct, Let me correct that there are
two pools of money. Fifteen billion dollars is what black
residents have demanded from the city of Boston and wake
of their apology around the Tansilantis play trade. Another pool
of money, it's fifty million dollars to which churches have committed.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
And oh, yeah, no, I understand that. I'm sorry, I
do know. I mean, I think we're very clear in
the fifty million committed from the churches. Although I can't
get a specifics I I do have that specific number
from you, which I appreciate. And the fifteen billion dollars
you have a commit a group, I believe, And if
you'd like to identify the group, I think of people
(13:10):
who have worked on this figure, and you're involved with
the group who has basically identified the number of fifteen
billion as what would be necessary? What is the group
that has that has come.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
On the founder of the Boston People's Reparations Commission Gotcha,
which is a grassroots organization which adds over the last
year organize the black community around reparations. And we've surfaced
this number of an initial fifteen billion dollar commitment.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Initial, absolutely, I think that's important to emphasize, Reverend initial.
Not certainly the final number would be higher than that.
And and just for clarification, and I think we've discussed
this before. If I'm wrong, please correct me, and then
well then we'll take a very quick break. This is
not something that an individual has to who lives in
(14:05):
Boston does not have to prove that they are a
direct descendant of someone who was enslaved. This fifteen billion
dollars could go to benefit any member of the black
community in Boston. Is I understand that or am I
wrong on that?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's correct as we have it, have the calculus organized
at this point. Yes, it would benefit black Bostonians across
the board, right, and Will's gift at some point, will
that shift at some point as we come closer to
our an agreement with the City of Boston, it could
(14:45):
shift from being a cash payout disbursement only to the
descendants of slaves. So we're not fixated on the exact
calcualists in terms of the payout. We also have other categories,
such as five billion of fifteen billion being invested in
(15:07):
the reconstruction of the black economic community.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Let me do this. I got to take a break.
I shouldn't have opened up that, but we'll have plenty
of time to talk about that. I got to take
a quick commercial break a little bit past where my
break should be. I find this to be a very
interesting subject, and again I thank you for joining us.
I think it's very important. This was not covered by
the newspapers, it wasn't covered by the television stations. I
(15:35):
think it was important for your efforts to be recognized.
And whether people agree or disagree, they're more than welcome
to join the conversation. All I ask is polite conversation.
Back on Nightside. The only lines that are open right
now are six, one, seven, nine, thirty. Will be right
back on Nightside.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Now back to Dan Way live from the Window World,
Nice Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Reverend n this is my guest. We're going to get
to phone calls. Let me start it off with I'm
going to go to Scott in Quincy. Scott, welcome you
at first this hour, get you in here before the
news at the bottom of the hour with Reverend Kevin
Peterson talking about reparations for the for the black community
in Boston.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Go ahead, well, great show, Dan, and interesting topic. And
what I'm curious about on this whole topic is, for example,
my ancestors at the same time as the slave trade
was going on in Scotland, We're victims of a genocide
called the Highland Clearances and fled to Nova Scotia and Canada.
(16:42):
So it wouldn't be fair to levy part of my
taxes for reparations given what my ancestors were experiencing at
the same time. And then when you talk about reparations,
you know the descendants of people who were harmed by slavery.
(17:03):
There are other African populations who were the slavers who
were capturing their fellow countrymen and selling them to the
Dutch and the Portuguese. And then you also had the Moors,
who were Muslim African Americans from North Africa who were
(17:23):
the most prolific of slavers. How do we ensure that
reparations money aren't going to the descendants of the people
who did the slaving. And in a lot of ways,
modern African immigrants who came here may well be the
descendants of the people who did the slave trading in Africa.
(17:48):
So there are two types of African Americans, those who
were harmed by slavery and those who were enslavers. How
do you ensure the right people don't get the benefits
of reparations? Reverend Dan, what.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Do you think? Thank you, thanks for the question. You
can ensure with any specificity uh Uh at this day
and age, whether or not the descendants of the enslavers
will will benefit from from reparations. What we are speaking
to is a generalized totalizing condition of of African Americans
(18:29):
with regard to slavery, and we know it existed in
the in this in this nation, wages were stolen, culture
was stolen across the board. That was harm done to
a total group of people, and totalizing people, a group
of people to which there should be apology, uh, and
to which there should be uh repair. That leads more
(18:53):
importantly to the call and more importantly, this is the point.
It leads to racial reconciliation of Boston and some ways
is a great city, Uh, it is in other ways
a victim of the history of anti blackness, which needs
to be addressed so that we get to the point
where blacks and whites in this great city are are
(19:17):
reconciled and working together so that our children, our children's
children enjoy a better metropolis.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Go ahead, Scott, well.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
I get that. I get that, but you know, like
I said, you know, the Spanish where something.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Scott, I think I think you made that point. I think,
and I think the Reverend I address that, and I
don't think that probably is going to be.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
A gent but like I said, that's just my point.
There there are people who deserve reparations and people who
who don't. And uh, that's well.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Amongst the black community, there's there's no way to make
that distinction. And uh, I don't know how you would
make the distinction, you know, within the within the black community,
and so I don't know if there's any way you
could suggest that, but it would be very difficult to that's
that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
Well, one would people who are black and Muslim be
considered Moore's who were who were the descendants of slavers?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know, again, I think that he answered that question, Scott,
to be honest with you, I just think that that
he has put it out there in uh in in
a direct fashion, and you don't have to agree with it.
And I think you've made some great points that other
people can think about. So thank you for the call.
It is very helpful.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Yes, excellent, Dan, great show, great show, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
All right, I have a great night. We've got to
take our news at the bottom of the hour. My
name is Dan Ray. This is nice side. My guest
is the Reverend Kevin Peterson, who is very much in
the leadership of the reparation community here in Boston. And
you've listened to him. If you'd like to ask a
question or make a comment, you're welcome again. I just
ask everyone to be polite. Six one, seven, two, five, four,
(21:10):
ten thirty six one seven, nine, ten thirty back after
this on night Side.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
All right, my guests, we're talking about reparations for Boston's
black community. Joining me tonight is Reverend Kevin Peterson. He
certainly has been the leader on this issue. On Saturday,
there was a meeting between people in Boston at the
Park Street Church where several members of the clergy of
(21:44):
the white Protestant community basically signed a document committing their
efforts to raise funds for reparations. And according to Reverend Peterson,
he has a commitment of fifteen million dollars from some
of the can we call the mainline Protestant churches White
(22:05):
Protestant churches here in Boston. Let's keep rolling here and
we're going to go next to Richard, who joins us
from Newton. Richard, you're next on Nightsiger, right ahead.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Thanks you a very interesting subject.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
They had Reverend Peterson.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Good evening reverend on phone. And I think your concept
is very different and unique. Unfortunately, I totally disagree with it,
because you know, my grandfather came here about eighteen ninety
and worked in Walpole for slave wages in the factory
(22:43):
for thirty five years, and the Chinese built railroads and
they were paid nothing. And I think all the people
have died in Vietnam, every one of those soldiers should
get at least one hundred thousand dollars. But the problem
is life is what it is and whatever happened, that's
(23:07):
gout of history. And I think what happened in the
South was very bad, and it was it was very cruel,
but like anything that was history, I want to be
paid for when people took advantage of me when I
was a kid and I shoveled driveways for a dollar,
there should have been ten dollars.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
By the way, just a clarification. Okay, he's not talking
about what happened in the South. He's talking about what
happened in Boston. I think that's important to have that focus.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Okay, okay, okay. I think and what happened in Boston
was there there was a certain specific harm perpetrated and
perpetuated by some colonial churches. And they've admitted to the
sin of holding slaves, the sin of segregating their congregations,
(24:00):
sin of forcing black slave enslaved artisans to to to
create artifacts for church services.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They've committed those things, and they've come to the table
to say that they're wrong, and they have come to
say that they're going to make penance, that they're going
to repair or seek to repair some of the harm
harm that they're responsible for. I think that's a that's
admirable and I think it's within the Judeo Christian UH ethic.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
It follows what we read in the Bible about atonement
and making relationships right again or or approximatey H fairness
and justice too. I think that's at But I don't
think when Jesus died. He said, you know, you guys
owe me fifty minion from Rome, because you know, if
(24:51):
you guys to me, I mean, life is what it is.
And I think what happened was very tough. And I
think if they want to donate some money, that's fine,
but I think, well.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
No, that that is what that's that's what he's taking you. Richard,
we're talking tonight about fifty million dollars in which these
churches in Boston would donate. There's there's a larger figure
that will eventually get to at some point, probably in
a separate conversation, about fifteen billion dollars, which is a
multi which you know, you know, what's your word, it's
(25:23):
it's a multiple of fifty million. I think the first step.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, why not on the Irish and Italians and Japanese
and Chinese deserve, because of their horrible conditions, that they.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Can I think, I think the golf here.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I don't think they don't get it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Richard. I'm glad you called. I'm glad you made those points,
but I don't think that there's much that that you
and and Reverend Peterson are going to a career upon here.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I don't know how you I was just trying to
give my opinion.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
You have, you know, Gill, let.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Me get a comment from Reverend Peterson here and try
to get a conversation going.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
He doesn't, Well, I would, I would, I would say,
I would say, Richard, respectfully, respectfully, you're you're wrong on
this question.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
The federal government apologized for to Japanese, to the Japanese
for internment during the war time in World War Two,
and they gave they paid penance, they gave money to Japanese.
That was different. That was a war. That was a war. No, well,
of course it was a war, but they perpetuated.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Please give Peterson the courtesy of making his his point.
The difference there was the government paid the Japanese families.
The US government paid the families of Japanese American citizens
who were wrongfully imprisoned because of ignorance or fear. Go ahead, Reverend.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
So they apologized, and then they they sought to repair
the situation by paying reparations. The same aim is the
case with UH. The Native American community, to which the
federal government has apologized and to which allocations of money
have been directed to Native Americans in the United States
(27:14):
and in Canada. So there is president where a government
or on the federal level UH has paid reparations, and
these churches are simply following UH in that regard. In
some ways, it really comes out of the Judea Christian
Christian ethic, where there are a number of stories and
(27:35):
number of UH biblical edicts so to speak, that speak
to the act of atonement and repair as a way
towards reconciliation between individuals. So they were gentlemen, there's biblical.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, gentlemen, I think that each of you has take
out a position.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the more time he has so far, so I'd
like another minute.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Then I think, actually, Richard, you've had more time. I'll
give you thirty seconds. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Okay. What happened the Japanese was horrible, but it was
because it was a war, and because it was a war,
that's why they were taken care of in this country.
Don't earn it and you don't deserve it. That's just
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Ye, thank you very much for your opinion. Richard, Thank
you very much. Appreciate your call. We're going to keep
rolling here. We're going to go next to where we'll
go next. Let me go to Jim. Jim, I got
to get you in here before the break at the
quarter of the hour.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
Go right ahead, man, I'll be brief as usual. Hello,
Kevin and uh the other callers. I've been thinking about
this kind of stuff a long time and considering it,
and I've come to the conclusion that Caucasians were first
on planet Earth, and as such we're the rightful owners
of it. So we're owed rent back rent in the
(28:54):
form of reparations by all the other minorities.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
How do you know?
Speaker 7 (28:59):
How do you listen to George Norri?
Speaker 6 (29:03):
But yeah, what is that?
Speaker 7 (29:07):
It's in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And go ahead.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
So if you if you off, if you offset your
seventy million against our eight hundred million years, you come
up with us, all of us being know, seven hundred
and twenty million each. So you just figure out how
you're gonna pay that and let us know.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
All right, Okay, thanks, thanks, all right, quick get to
that point.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Okay, well scientifically and answer logically that's that's not true.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, you know, it was attempting to make that point.
Ref fair enough, fair enough, Okay, take a quick break here,
I got uh, I got a couple of open lines
at six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty and
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Again, I
think the important thing to point out is this is
(29:57):
a voluntary contribution that some predominantly Protestant white churches. There
are Protestant black churches, but these are white churches in
Boston that have made this commitment. Very quick question, Kevin,
before I go to break, are there any Catholic parishes
who have made or are formerly the archdiocese? Have they
(30:18):
made any financial commitment of any sort of of any
Jewish synagogues or temples made.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, the Catholic Church. They're at the table, so they've
been part of these meetings and these conversations. Cardinal outgoing
Cardinal O'Malley has made a wonderful expression of atonement and
a commitment towards the Catholic Church being involved in repair.
(30:46):
The Catholic Church stood silent in Boston doing three centuries,
well since the three surches, but doing centuries of where
blacks were oppressed on.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So this is more than slavery because obviously I don't
think Catholic Church was actually established here in America until
the nineteenth century. I don't think Catholic Church either the
Catholic Church or Catholic Church leaders were involved in slavery.
That's a different, different issue and one of my Jewish
centergogue or Jewish temples.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
No, none at the moment.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Okay, I got it. Let's take a quick break. I
got a bunch of calls. Want to get to everyone.
We're coming right back on Nightside with Reverend Kevin Peterson
talking about reparations for members of the black community here
in Boston, initially from white Protestant churches, some of the
oldest houses of worship in the city of Boston. Actually
(31:39):
back on NIGHTSID after this.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on w b Z to news radio.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Back to the calls to go. Let's go to Antonio,
who's calling in from Roxbury. Hy Antonio, welcome, you were
on with Reverend Kevin Peterson right ahead.
Speaker 8 (31:56):
Hi, good evening.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Thank you for only to get through.
Speaker 8 (31:59):
My name is ANTHONYA. Atwards. I am a descendant of
American freeman who was a formally emancipated slave, and I
just want to let you know that I can't we
are continuously working with Kevin Peterson with his organization in
the community. And I also want to say that I
was a cloud descendant of American freemen to be able
(32:19):
to participate in the actual editing and writing of the
apology and then being at the ceremony on the twenty
seventh with the clergy and hearing this apology. And so
the reason why I want to say this is I
think there's a huge misconception and a breakdown of education
and our community. And it's one thing that my organization
does were a heritage organization, the United Stuns and Daughters
(32:40):
of Freemen. We are trying to preserve our heritage, just
like the Irish, the Italian, African, whomever. And I think
that people overlook us because they're not educated on us.
And so the reason why this is important for us,
especially here in Massachusetts, and I listened to the previous callers,
I don't think people understand that slavery which just wasn't
down south the Massachusetts doing bodies of liberty for sixteen
(33:04):
forty one, it was the churches who sanctioned slavery for
the mass General district courts and they asked for lady,
so slavery was sanctioned out of thirteen colonies Massachusetts was
at first and sixteen forty one. You can find that
in the state House, to find it in the Massachusetts
Body of Liberty.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I don't because anyone who listens to this program that
doesn't realize that slavery existed in Massachusetts.
Speaker 8 (33:28):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't I
know they say it existed. The gentleman said, Sam slavery
down south.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
No it was.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That was Richard from Quincy, and I corrected him.
Speaker 8 (33:40):
Right. So what I want to say is, because Massachusetts
sanctioned slavery and sixteen forty one and then also created
the Jim Crow Laws, we have a systematic and structural
racism and a question in the state of Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I do think, Antonio, that the Jim Crow laws laws,
the reconstruction Jim Laws, were a function of the South.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
No, it was Massachusetts, you can look it up.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I do not believe that there was any dajurre djurre.
They may have been de facto segregation, okay, but the
gym laws of the South, as I'm sure most people know,
were blacks here, whites here. They could not eat its fregation.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
Yeah, that's segregation. So the point I'm trying to make
is in addition to doing reparations and talking about what
needs to be done, there needs to be a huge
set of education on this, and so I'm really proud
as of the sin of the slaves to be able
to be a part of this. And I also want
people to know that one second set up. Every time
we talk about reparations for those who descend from slavey,
(34:50):
all other races interject their plights, and so we're very
well aware of everybody else's history because it's part in school.
Our history is the only one that the race as
American freemen.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
So I want to be honest with you. I went
to school in the nineteen sixties and the fifties and sixties,
went to Boston Latgh School, and we learned a lot
about slavery. So anyway, Antonio, I understand the points you're
making and some guest, but I've got a whole bunch
of other calls. You could see that, Antonio, thank you,
(35:23):
You'll be happy.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I'll be happy to all.
Speaker 8 (35:25):
I didn't want to say that. I'm very proud.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Atonia is if I could as professionally and as gentlemen
as I can, I have three other prolems behind you,
and I only have about six minutes left, so you've
already had almost four minutes. If you could wrap up
your comments, that would be great.
Speaker 8 (35:43):
I will, I will. So I just want to say
I'm very proud of the organizations that are coming together
to also educate and also bring up operations at this
point and means a lot to us who descend some slavery.
And so I just want to thank Kevin Peterson for
always being available to be on your show, and I
want to thank you for a lot.
Speaker 9 (36:00):
Want us to speak, Yeah, to say.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
One of the reasons we're doing this tonight is I
was disappointed with the lack of coverage that this event had.
This event was given on Saturday, and I mentioned that
to Kevin, and Kevint called me over the weekend and
I felt that it's it was very appropriate.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
To have them mon thank you, Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You're welcome. You're welcome. Let's keep YouTube, let's keep rolling, everybody,
and Joseph, Joseph, I'm not sure where you call it from, Joseph,
but you go right ahead.
Speaker 9 (36:30):
Oh sorry, it's Joe from Cambridge, you know, Okay, Joe, good,
thank you for me.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Because we're getting tight here. Okay, as we get as
we always get to the end of the hour, go ahead,
you bet.
Speaker 9 (36:41):
And good evening, Reverend Peterson, believe it. So I just
real quick, I think, and this is just my opinion.
When I hear reparations, I know it is a very
polarizing subject. There's going to be a lot of animated
discussion on both sides. I personally don't necessarily can you know,
(37:03):
completely grasp and understand it the concept behind it. But
I understand that there's opposite views that defend it, you know,
and I respect those. My question is, are two questions
related to the payment? So I heard earlier that you
have commitments from the churches in Boston for five zero
(37:24):
fifty billion dollars million, million, million, million, excuse me, million,
and that will come from the church's coffers, I believe,
probably right. But the fifteen one five million, I think
it's a separate payment you mentioned or I heard it
was going to come from the City of Boston, right,
And who's going to pay billions? And who is going
(37:48):
to exactly pay that? I assume it's going to be
the taxpayers of Boston, the City of Boston, right.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
They could be the taxpayers but sir, I'm sorry, I
forget your name. You know the issue of Joe Joe,
the city could issue of bond built around reparations, and
those who buy into or purchase into a bond, they're
not being taxed. They're in fact, they're investing in order
to to to reform money. But they could the fifteen billion,
(38:19):
the initial fifteen billion, to come through that mechanism. The
point of the matter is that harm was perpetrated on
on slaves and blacks over three centuries. That harm needs
to be repaired. So there needs to be some way.
As as Native Americans were repaired through compensation, as Japanese
(38:41):
Americans were repaired through compensation, there ought to be away
just in terms of moral comportment for African Americans or
blacks and sent the slaves to be made whole based
on what was stolen and based on what the harm
has been systematically and with regard to chattel slavery and
(39:04):
in the colony of Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (39:06):
So so I understand your your your position on it,
and I respect it, but bent to the payment part
and whether so if it if it is a bond payment.
And I'm familiar because I work in the industry. I
may with bonds and how to work, and that's that's
a vol that's a voluntary payment, and I can respect that.
Then that's a different story.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
But if it.
Speaker 9 (39:28):
That's something that I think that would have a problem with,
because well, your tax.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Your taxes inadvertently or or paid for the UH repair
of Japanese Americans. You could say theoretically that you paid
for that as well as well as Native Americans. Now,
why can't we get wrap our hands around and heard
moral terms and very political terms of compensating UH blacks
(40:00):
for centuries of a pressure.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Gentlemen, I'm going to have to leave that question hanging
in the ear because we are now literally out of time.
Some of the calls went very long. Joe, you did not.
I'm sorry to peinageze you. I think you made your
point clear. The call is in the line. You can
stay there and we can continue this conversation into the
next hour. Reverend Peterson, again, I was disappointed the lack
(40:24):
of coverage you received on Saturday. This won't make up
for the lack of coverage, but at least it gives
a little more conversation and thought to the issue.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I appreciate it. Very well, appreciate it, look forward and
coming back on again.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Absolutely call anytime, Reverend Kevin Peterson, if you're on the line,
we can continue to talk about reparations here in Boston
or reparations in your community. I think it's an issue
that it is that it needs to be discussed, and
whatever your point of view is, welcome. Will be back
on Night's side right after the eleven o'clock news here
in Boston.
It's on Boston, all right, welcome back. We have touched
on this topic before, but we haven't talked about reparations. Recently,
joining me is Reverend Kevin Peterson, who has been an
advocate for reparations for slavery and also has been an
(00:24):
advocate for changing the name of Fannel Hall because it's
named after Peter Fannel, a Bostonian from the middle of
the eighteenth century who owned slaves. Reverend Peterson, welcome back
to Nightside.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you, Dan. I'm glad to be back on again.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I know that you were involved in an event on
Saturday at the Arlington Street Church and I was surprised
how well and I was disappointed, But I don't know
how you felt about it. Can generate. The only media
coverage that I could see if it was some coverage
from WBZ news radio. It looked as if the local
(01:08):
TV stations in both The Globe and The Herald chose
not to cover the event. Did I miss a coverage that?
Because I was looking today to try to do a
little research on it, I couldn't find anything other than
the WBZ news report.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, No, you didn't miss the coverage that scantily appeared
related to this very historic event on Friday.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Let me for folks who might have missed it, I'm
going to ask Rob to play cut thirty six. This
was Kendall Mule's wrap, just to kind of set it
up so people know what we're talking about and then
we can get into get into the issues. Why don't
you play cut thirty six please? Rob?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
There was a dark history behind many of the points
of light that are Boston's churches.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
White churches in Boston were founded really in the colonial
era on the proceeds of the slave trade.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That's Reverend John Gibbons with other members of Boston's white
clergy gathered at the Arlington Street Church to sign an
atonement statement formally apologizing for their church's complicity and slavery
and its legacy. Also, it's anywhere black faith leaders who
signed the document his witnesses, among them Reverend Kevin Peterson,
who calls this an important first step.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
The second part is reparations, restoring what is owed to
those who were harmed. And then the third part of
this process is reconciliation to come in together of whites
and blacks.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Peterson says today's proceedings are the first of their kind
in the nation's history. Kendall Bulden w Busy Boston's news.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Radio, so that this was Saturday after I guess it
was Saturday afternoon. It was an indoor events, so I'm
not sure what time lest I think it was Saturday afternoon.
And there was a letter, a pretty long statement called
the Confession of Spiritual Sin and a call to sacred atonement,
reparations and reconciliation from predominantly white churches in metropolitan Boston. Kevin,
(03:02):
how many churches were represented at the ceremony on Saturday?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It was just syh of forty churches, forty faith leaders,
white faith leaders from uh some of some of them
from the downtown churches at Boston who had a direct
connection to the legacy of Lomny.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Denominations were were represented? Were they mostly.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I would say about yeah, Protestant, Protestant, No, no, no.
Catholic representation of the The Catholic Church has talked about
reparations and repair and addressing the evils, and.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So most of the most of the churches would have
dated back to I guess the the early eighteenth century.
Is that you know, I'm trying to some of the
church content context here.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes, some of some of the churches date back to
the colonial air where slavery existed. In those churches, including
King's Chapel and Old South Church UH, the Old North Church. UH,
they were involved in one way or another in the
Transatlantic slave trade. Either pastors owned slaves or slaves worked
(04:22):
in those sacred edifices, or they profited indirectly through through
the sale of slaves. Other churches who signed on to
this document or signing on because they were confessing the
sin of being associated with the perpetuation of systemic racism
(04:44):
over the last three centuries. So while those churches don't
date back or some of those churches don't date back
to the colonial area of era, they expressed apology and
remorse and renouncement because during during the three centuries of
of anti black oppression in Boston, they in some ways
stood silent.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Okay, So did I know? And again, I we've talked
about this before, and I want to get to phone
callers as well. I know that when we last talked,
I think it was a few months ago, you and
others had come up with a figure of about fifteen
billion dollars and that was a figure that just for
(05:27):
discussion purposes you felt would be an appropriate figure for
Is that the city of Boston or is that easterns
or New England?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes, no, the city of Boston.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Okay, okay, no problem. So did any of these churches.
It's one thing to sign a document. Did any of
these churches make an offer of a penance? Since we
put it in a spiritual sense and say, hey, well,
reparations women, I'm using I'm using it kind of in
the context of penance for the sins of their predecessors.
(06:05):
And none of the ministers who signed this, I'm sure
ever had anything to do directly with the slave trade,
but they now represent those churches. Again, did any of
them say, hey, we pledge or on behalf of our congregation,
we pledge x numbers of dollars to the establishment of
(06:26):
a fund or was it all just? And again I
want to say simply, but was it all just the
signing of a document lamenting what had happened without offering
any again, actual financial support.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
The answer is simply put, Yes, there was a very
great need and there's very it's ceiling. It's important for
the churches to make us their first move penance acknowledgement, apology,
atonement as part of the process of repair. That's reparations,
(07:06):
that's the penance you talk about, and then we move
on to reconciliation. So the dependance or the repair that's
been committed is up to fifty million dollars of a
commitment to from the collective of churches, most of which
are connected to the slave trade translated strange thing. So
it's fifty million dollars that over the next two years
(07:28):
is forthcoming in terms of payments into Boston's black community.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, So you broke up with me, So it's the
commitment is fifty five million dollars over the next two years.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Now, in the coming years, a commitment of fifty five
zero fifty millions will be committed to Boston's black community
and so a number of churches, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so when you say coming years, there's no is
not a time specific it's at some point.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Well informally, the the two undred and fiftieth anniversary of
the Nation has two years from now.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, that's where we're coming hard upon that because we
got the Boston Tea Party, uh fifty anniversary of the
Tea Party in December of this year. So it's a
two and a half two and a half months from now.
So at this point, where will that money be deposited
and how will it be distributed, assuming that it actually materializes.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
And Uh, well, we're we're.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Or if there's not a plan prepared, that's fine. I'm
not trying to put you on the spot. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, we're confident that it will materialize. Uh, these churches
of the Episcopal Church, the Old South Church, others have
have stated in meetings that they're prepared to make this commitment. Uh,
A mechanism a has not been clearly articulated in terms
(09:04):
of how it gets into the black community. Usage of
these funds have not been clearly articulated. But we were
anticipating a, you know, a historic investment in the black community.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Who would be able could we make a little news
here and could you share with us maybe the the
the amount of the commitment of let us say, the
top three churches or the top three you know religions,
what has been committed specifically.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
No, I'm not prepared to do that at this point,
but I am prepared to say I'm prepared to say
with confidence that up to fifty million dollars will be
invested from across the denominations, the Episcopal Church and in
other Protestant churches that that date back. Kay, I will
(10:01):
say I would say, I will say that King's Chapel
is involved, in Old South Church and in Trinity Church.
They're all involved in contributing to this initial pool of
fifty million dollars, which will go to things like economic
development and housing and maybe some cash payouts into the
black community.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But I just, I just you know, want to make
very make clear my question. So, yes, you cannot tell
us that a specific either individual church such as.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, I won't put a number to it, but I
won't put a number to it. But I will say
that Old South Church, UH, Trinity and King's Chapel are
churches that have that have committed to monetary offerings in
wake of.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Their specifically In other words, it's one thing to say, yeah,
we're going to try to do something. It's one thing
to say we're going to make a contribution for reparations.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Of this is what the church, This is what these
churches are doing. Yeah, I don't want to pin a
specific number on one particular church.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No, No, I understand, I'm I'm just changing the question
a little bit because it's to me, it's fascinating. If
it's one thing for churches to sign a document or
ministers to sign a document and bemoan the terrible things
that happened, it's quite another then for someone to say
we should raise, you know, as a start, fifty million
dollars towards the figure of five billion dollars. But I
(11:34):
just want to make sure I understand that, and if
you're not prepared to answer a specific I get that,
and I accept that. But a the churches Protestant churches
in Boston that have said we commit X to get
to fifty million dollars, there's got to be some substantial commitments.
Are the names of churches and amounts on a piece
(11:57):
of paper that you don't want to disclose to us,
which I understand. But you know that this church has
pledged X. This church has pledged yuh, and this church
has pledged has pledged Z.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
That' said exactly, yes.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Okay, So so you have a good idea that this
fifty million can be met. Okay, great, let's let's take
some phone calls. We got to take a break. My
guest is Reverend Kevin Peterson. He believes that a figure
of fifteen billion dollars is.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, let me correct, Let me correct that there are
two pools of money. Fifteen billion dollars is what black
residents have demanded from the city of Boston and wake
of their apology around the Tansilantis play trade. Another pool
of money, it's fifty million dollars to which churches have committed.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
And oh, yeah, no, I understand that. I'm sorry, I
do know. I mean, I think we're very clear in
the fifty million committed from the churches. Although I can't
get a specifics I I do have that specific number
from you, which I appreciate. And the fifteen billion dollars
you have a commit a group, I believe, And if
you'd like to identify the group, I think of people
(13:10):
who have worked on this figure, and you're involved with
the group who has basically identified the number of fifteen
billion as what would be necessary? What is the group
that has that has come.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
On the founder of the Boston People's Reparations Commission Gotcha,
which is a grassroots organization which adds over the last
year organize the black community around reparations. And we've surfaced
this number of an initial fifteen billion dollar commitment.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Initial, absolutely, I think that's important to emphasize, Reverend initial.
Not certainly the final number would be higher than that.
And and just for clarification, and I think we've discussed
this before. If I'm wrong, please correct me, and then
well then we'll take a very quick break. This is
not something that an individual has to who lives in
(14:05):
Boston does not have to prove that they are a
direct descendant of someone who was enslaved. This fifteen billion
dollars could go to benefit any member of the black
community in Boston. Is I understand that or am I
wrong on that?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's correct as we have it, have the calculus organized
at this point. Yes, it would benefit black Bostonians across
the board, right, and Will's gift at some point, will
that shift at some point as we come closer to
our an agreement with the City of Boston, it could
(14:45):
shift from being a cash payout disbursement only to the
descendants of slaves. So we're not fixated on the exact
calcualists in terms of the payout. We also have other categories,
such as five billion of fifteen billion being invested in
(15:07):
the reconstruction of the black economic community.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Let me do this. I got to take a break.
I shouldn't have opened up that, but we'll have plenty
of time to talk about that. I got to take
a quick commercial break a little bit past where my
break should be. I find this to be a very
interesting subject, and again I thank you for joining us.
I think it's very important. This was not covered by
the newspapers, it wasn't covered by the television stations. I
(15:35):
think it was important for your efforts to be recognized.
And whether people agree or disagree, they're more than welcome
to join the conversation. All I ask is polite conversation.
Back on Nightside. The only lines that are open right
now are six, one, seven, nine, thirty. Will be right
back on Nightside.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Now back to Dan Way live from the Window World,
Nice Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Reverend n this is my guest. We're going to get
to phone calls. Let me start it off with I'm
going to go to Scott in Quincy. Scott, welcome you
at first this hour, get you in here before the
news at the bottom of the hour with Reverend Kevin
Peterson talking about reparations for the for the black community
in Boston.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Go ahead, well, great show, Dan, and interesting topic. And
what I'm curious about on this whole topic is, for example,
my ancestors at the same time as the slave trade
was going on in Scotland, We're victims of a genocide
called the Highland Clearances and fled to Nova Scotia and Canada.
(16:42):
So it wouldn't be fair to levy part of my
taxes for reparations given what my ancestors were experiencing at
the same time. And then when you talk about reparations,
you know the descendants of people who were harmed by slavery.
(17:03):
There are other African populations who were the slavers who
were capturing their fellow countrymen and selling them to the
Dutch and the Portuguese. And then you also had the Moors,
who were Muslim African Americans from North Africa who were
(17:23):
the most prolific of slavers. How do we ensure that
reparations money aren't going to the descendants of the people
who did the slaving. And in a lot of ways,
modern African immigrants who came here may well be the
descendants of the people who did the slave trading in Africa.
(17:48):
So there are two types of African Americans, those who
were harmed by slavery and those who were enslavers. How
do you ensure the right people don't get the benefits
of reparations? Reverend Dan, what.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Do you think? Thank you, thanks for the question. You
can ensure with any specificity uh Uh at this day
and age, whether or not the descendants of the enslavers
will will benefit from from reparations. What we are speaking
to is a generalized totalizing condition of of African Americans
(18:29):
with regard to slavery, and we know it existed in
the in this in this nation, wages were stolen, culture
was stolen across the board. That was harm done to
a total group of people, and totalizing people, a group
of people to which there should be apology, uh, and
to which there should be uh repair. That leads more
(18:53):
importantly to the call and more importantly, this is the point.
It leads to racial reconciliation of Boston and some ways
is a great city, Uh, it is in other ways
a victim of the history of anti blackness, which needs
to be addressed so that we get to the point
where blacks and whites in this great city are are
(19:17):
reconciled and working together so that our children, our children's
children enjoy a better metropolis.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Go ahead, Scott, well.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
I get that. I get that, but you know, like
I said, you know, the Spanish where something.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Scott, I think I think you made that point. I think,
and I think the Reverend I address that, and I
don't think that probably is going to be.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
A gent but like I said, that's just my point.
There there are people who deserve reparations and people who
who don't. And uh, that's well.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Amongst the black community, there's there's no way to make
that distinction. And uh, I don't know how you would
make the distinction, you know, within the within the black community,
and so I don't know if there's any way you
could suggest that, but it would be very difficult to that's
that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
Well, one would people who are black and Muslim be
considered Moore's who were who were the descendants of slavers?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know, again, I think that he answered that question, Scott,
to be honest with you, I just think that that
he has put it out there in uh in in
a direct fashion, and you don't have to agree with it.
And I think you've made some great points that other
people can think about. So thank you for the call.
It is very helpful.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Yes, excellent, Dan, great show, great show, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
All right, I have a great night. We've got to
take our news at the bottom of the hour. My
name is Dan Ray. This is nice side. My guest
is the Reverend Kevin Peterson, who is very much in
the leadership of the reparation community here in Boston. And
you've listened to him. If you'd like to ask a
question or make a comment, you're welcome again. I just
ask everyone to be polite. Six one, seven, two, five, four,
(21:10):
ten thirty six one seven, nine, ten thirty back after
this on night Side.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
All right, my guests, we're talking about reparations for Boston's
black community. Joining me tonight is Reverend Kevin Peterson. He
certainly has been the leader on this issue. On Saturday,
there was a meeting between people in Boston at the
Park Street Church where several members of the clergy of
(21:44):
the white Protestant community basically signed a document committing their
efforts to raise funds for reparations. And according to Reverend Peterson,
he has a commitment of fifteen million dollars from some
of the can we call the mainline Protestant churches White
(22:05):
Protestant churches here in Boston. Let's keep rolling here and
we're going to go next to Richard, who joins us
from Newton. Richard, you're next on Nightsiger, right ahead.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Thanks you a very interesting subject.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
They had Reverend Peterson.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Good evening reverend on phone. And I think your concept
is very different and unique. Unfortunately, I totally disagree with it,
because you know, my grandfather came here about eighteen ninety
and worked in Walpole for slave wages in the factory
(22:43):
for thirty five years, and the Chinese built railroads and
they were paid nothing. And I think all the people
have died in Vietnam, every one of those soldiers should
get at least one hundred thousand dollars. But the problem
is life is what it is and whatever happened, that's
(23:07):
gout of history. And I think what happened in the
South was very bad, and it was it was very cruel,
but like anything that was history, I want to be
paid for when people took advantage of me when I
was a kid and I shoveled driveways for a dollar,
there should have been ten dollars.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
By the way, just a clarification. Okay, he's not talking
about what happened in the South. He's talking about what
happened in Boston. I think that's important to have that focus.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Okay, okay, okay. I think and what happened in Boston
was there there was a certain specific harm perpetrated and
perpetuated by some colonial churches. And they've admitted to the
sin of holding slaves, the sin of segregating their congregations,
(24:00):
sin of forcing black slave enslaved artisans to to to
create artifacts for church services.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They've committed those things, and they've come to the table
to say that they're wrong, and they have come to
say that they're going to make penance, that they're going
to repair or seek to repair some of the harm
harm that they're responsible for. I think that's a that's
admirable and I think it's within the Judeo Christian UH ethic.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
It follows what we read in the Bible about atonement
and making relationships right again or or approximatey H fairness
and justice too. I think that's at But I don't
think when Jesus died. He said, you know, you guys
owe me fifty minion from Rome, because you know, if
(24:51):
you guys to me, I mean, life is what it is.
And I think what happened was very tough. And I
think if they want to donate some money, that's fine,
but I think, well.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
No, that that is what that's that's what he's taking you. Richard,
we're talking tonight about fifty million dollars in which these
churches in Boston would donate. There's there's a larger figure
that will eventually get to at some point, probably in
a separate conversation, about fifteen billion dollars, which is a
multi which you know, you know, what's your word, it's
(25:23):
it's a multiple of fifty million. I think the first step.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, why not on the Irish and Italians and Japanese
and Chinese deserve, because of their horrible conditions, that they.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Can I think, I think the golf here.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I don't think they don't get it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Richard. I'm glad you called. I'm glad you made those points,
but I don't think that there's much that that you
and and Reverend Peterson are going to a career upon here.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I don't know how you I was just trying to
give my opinion.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
You have, you know, Gill, let.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Me get a comment from Reverend Peterson here and try
to get a conversation going.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
He doesn't, Well, I would, I would, I would say,
I would say, Richard, respectfully, respectfully, you're you're wrong on
this question.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
The federal government apologized for to Japanese, to the Japanese
for internment during the war time in World War Two,
and they gave they paid penance, they gave money to Japanese.
That was different. That was a war. That was a war. No, well,
of course it was a war, but they perpetuated.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Please give Peterson the courtesy of making his his point.
The difference there was the government paid the Japanese families.
The US government paid the families of Japanese American citizens
who were wrongfully imprisoned because of ignorance or fear. Go ahead, Reverend.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
So they apologized, and then they they sought to repair
the situation by paying reparations. The same aim is the
case with UH. The Native American community, to which the
federal government has apologized and to which allocations of money
have been directed to Native Americans in the United States
(27:14):
and in Canada. So there is president where a government
or on the federal level UH has paid reparations, and
these churches are simply following UH in that regard. In
some ways, it really comes out of the Judea Christian
Christian ethic, where there are a number of stories and
(27:35):
number of UH biblical edicts so to speak, that speak
to the act of atonement and repair as a way
towards reconciliation between individuals. So they were gentlemen, there's biblical.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, gentlemen, I think that each of you has take
out a position.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the more time he has so far, so I'd
like another minute.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Then I think, actually, Richard, you've had more time. I'll
give you thirty seconds. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Okay. What happened the Japanese was horrible, but it was
because it was a war, and because it was a war,
that's why they were taken care of in this country.
Don't earn it and you don't deserve it. That's just
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Ye, thank you very much for your opinion. Richard, Thank
you very much. Appreciate your call. We're going to keep
rolling here. We're going to go next to where we'll
go next. Let me go to Jim. Jim, I got
to get you in here before the break at the
quarter of the hour.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
Go right ahead, man, I'll be brief as usual. Hello,
Kevin and uh the other callers. I've been thinking about
this kind of stuff a long time and considering it,
and I've come to the conclusion that Caucasians were first
on planet Earth, and as such we're the rightful owners
of it. So we're owed rent back rent in the
(28:54):
form of reparations by all the other minorities.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
How do you know?
Speaker 7 (28:59):
How do you listen to George Norri?
Speaker 6 (29:03):
But yeah, what is that?
Speaker 7 (29:07):
It's in the Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And go ahead.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
So if you if you off, if you offset your
seventy million against our eight hundred million years, you come
up with us, all of us being know, seven hundred
and twenty million each. So you just figure out how
you're gonna pay that and let us know.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
All right, Okay, thanks, thanks, all right, quick get to
that point.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Okay, well scientifically and answer logically that's that's not true.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, you know, it was attempting to make that point.
Ref fair enough, fair enough, Okay, take a quick break here,
I got uh, I got a couple of open lines
at six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty and
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Again, I
think the important thing to point out is this is
(29:57):
a voluntary contribution that some predominantly Protestant white churches. There
are Protestant black churches, but these are white churches in
Boston that have made this commitment. Very quick question, Kevin,
before I go to break, are there any Catholic parishes
who have made or are formerly the archdiocese? Have they
(30:18):
made any financial commitment of any sort of of any
Jewish synagogues or temples made.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, the Catholic Church. They're at the table, so they've
been part of these meetings and these conversations. Cardinal outgoing
Cardinal O'Malley has made a wonderful expression of atonement and
a commitment towards the Catholic Church being involved in repair.
(30:46):
The Catholic Church stood silent in Boston doing three centuries,
well since the three surches, but doing centuries of where
blacks were oppressed on.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So this is more than slavery because obviously I don't
think Catholic Church was actually established here in America until
the nineteenth century. I don't think Catholic Church either the
Catholic Church or Catholic Church leaders were involved in slavery.
That's a different, different issue and one of my Jewish
centergogue or Jewish temples.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
No, none at the moment.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Okay, I got it. Let's take a quick break. I
got a bunch of calls. Want to get to everyone.
We're coming right back on Nightside with Reverend Kevin Peterson
talking about reparations for members of the black community here
in Boston, initially from white Protestant churches, some of the
oldest houses of worship in the city of Boston. Actually
(31:39):
back on NIGHTSID after this.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on w b Z to news radio.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Back to the calls to go. Let's go to Antonio,
who's calling in from Roxbury. Hy Antonio, welcome, you were
on with Reverend Kevin Peterson right ahead.
Speaker 8 (31:56):
Hi, good evening.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Thank you for only to get through.
Speaker 8 (31:59):
My name is ANTHONYA. Atwards. I am a descendant of
American freeman who was a formally emancipated slave, and I
just want to let you know that I can't we
are continuously working with Kevin Peterson with his organization in
the community. And I also want to say that I
was a cloud descendant of American freemen to be able
(32:19):
to participate in the actual editing and writing of the
apology and then being at the ceremony on the twenty
seventh with the clergy and hearing this apology. And so
the reason why I want to say this is I
think there's a huge misconception and a breakdown of education
and our community. And it's one thing that my organization
does were a heritage organization, the United Stuns and Daughters
(32:40):
of Freemen. We are trying to preserve our heritage, just
like the Irish, the Italian, African, whomever. And I think
that people overlook us because they're not educated on us.
And so the reason why this is important for us,
especially here in Massachusetts, and I listened to the previous callers,
I don't think people understand that slavery which just wasn't
down south the Massachusetts doing bodies of liberty for sixteen
(33:04):
forty one, it was the churches who sanctioned slavery for
the mass General district courts and they asked for lady,
so slavery was sanctioned out of thirteen colonies Massachusetts was
at first and sixteen forty one. You can find that
in the state House, to find it in the Massachusetts
Body of Liberty.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I don't because anyone who listens to this program that
doesn't realize that slavery existed in Massachusetts.
Speaker 8 (33:28):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't I
know they say it existed. The gentleman said, Sam slavery
down south.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
No it was.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That was Richard from Quincy, and I corrected him.
Speaker 8 (33:40):
Right. So what I want to say is, because Massachusetts
sanctioned slavery and sixteen forty one and then also created
the Jim Crow Laws, we have a systematic and structural
racism and a question in the state of Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I do think, Antonio, that the Jim Crow laws laws,
the reconstruction Jim Laws, were a function of the South.
Speaker 8 (34:04):
No, it was Massachusetts, you can look it up.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I do not believe that there was any dajurre djurre.
They may have been de facto segregation, okay, but the
gym laws of the South, as I'm sure most people know,
were blacks here, whites here. They could not eat its fregation.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
Yeah, that's segregation. So the point I'm trying to make
is in addition to doing reparations and talking about what
needs to be done, there needs to be a huge
set of education on this, and so I'm really proud
as of the sin of the slaves to be able
to be a part of this. And I also want
people to know that one second set up. Every time
we talk about reparations for those who descend from slavey,
(34:50):
all other races interject their plights, and so we're very
well aware of everybody else's history because it's part in school.
Our history is the only one that the race as
American freemen.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
So I want to be honest with you. I went
to school in the nineteen sixties and the fifties and sixties,
went to Boston Latgh School, and we learned a lot
about slavery. So anyway, Antonio, I understand the points you're
making and some guest, but I've got a whole bunch
of other calls. You could see that, Antonio, thank you,
(35:23):
You'll be happy.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I'll be happy to all.
Speaker 8 (35:25):
I didn't want to say that. I'm very proud.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Atonia is if I could as professionally and as gentlemen
as I can, I have three other prolems behind you,
and I only have about six minutes left, so you've
already had almost four minutes. If you could wrap up
your comments, that would be great.
Speaker 8 (35:43):
I will, I will. So I just want to say
I'm very proud of the organizations that are coming together
to also educate and also bring up operations at this
point and means a lot to us who descend some slavery.
And so I just want to thank Kevin Peterson for
always being available to be on your show, and I
want to thank you for a lot.
Speaker 9 (36:00):
Want us to speak, Yeah, to say.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
One of the reasons we're doing this tonight is I
was disappointed with the lack of coverage that this event had.
This event was given on Saturday, and I mentioned that
to Kevin, and Kevint called me over the weekend and
I felt that it's it was very appropriate.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
To have them mon thank you, Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
You're welcome. You're welcome. Let's keep YouTube, let's keep rolling, everybody,
and Joseph, Joseph, I'm not sure where you call it from, Joseph,
but you go right ahead.
Speaker 9 (36:30):
Oh sorry, it's Joe from Cambridge, you know, Okay, Joe, good,
thank you for me.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Because we're getting tight here. Okay, as we get as
we always get to the end of the hour, go ahead,
you bet.
Speaker 9 (36:41):
And good evening, Reverend Peterson, believe it. So I just
real quick, I think, and this is just my opinion.
When I hear reparations, I know it is a very
polarizing subject. There's going to be a lot of animated
discussion on both sides. I personally don't necessarily can you know,
(37:03):
completely grasp and understand it the concept behind it. But
I understand that there's opposite views that defend it, you know,
and I respect those. My question is, are two questions
related to the payment? So I heard earlier that you
have commitments from the churches in Boston for five zero
(37:24):
fifty billion dollars million, million, million, million, excuse me, million,
and that will come from the church's coffers, I believe,
probably right. But the fifteen one five million, I think
it's a separate payment you mentioned or I heard it
was going to come from the City of Boston, right,
And who's going to pay billions? And who is going
(37:48):
to exactly pay that? I assume it's going to be
the taxpayers of Boston, the City of Boston, right.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
They could be the taxpayers but sir, I'm sorry, I
forget your name. You know the issue of Joe Joe,
the city could issue of bond built around reparations, and
those who buy into or purchase into a bond, they're
not being taxed. They're in fact, they're investing in order
to to to reform money. But they could the fifteen billion,
(38:19):
the initial fifteen billion, to come through that mechanism. The
point of the matter is that harm was perpetrated on
on slaves and blacks over three centuries. That harm needs
to be repaired. So there needs to be some way.
As as Native Americans were repaired through compensation, as Japanese
(38:41):
Americans were repaired through compensation, there ought to be away
just in terms of moral comportment for African Americans or
blacks and sent the slaves to be made whole based
on what was stolen and based on what the harm
has been systematically and with regard to chattel slavery and
(39:04):
in the colony of Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (39:06):
So so I understand your your your position on it,
and I respect it, but bent to the payment part
and whether so if it if it is a bond payment.
And I'm familiar because I work in the industry. I
may with bonds and how to work, and that's that's
a vol that's a voluntary payment, and I can respect that.
Then that's a different story.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
But if it.
Speaker 9 (39:28):
That's something that I think that would have a problem with,
because well, your tax.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Your taxes inadvertently or or paid for the UH repair
of Japanese Americans. You could say theoretically that you paid
for that as well as well as Native Americans. Now,
why can't we get wrap our hands around and heard
moral terms and very political terms of compensating UH blacks
(40:00):
for centuries of a pressure.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Gentlemen, I'm going to have to leave that question hanging
in the ear because we are now literally out of time.
Some of the calls went very long. Joe, you did not.
I'm sorry to peinageze you. I think you made your
point clear. The call is in the line. You can
stay there and we can continue this conversation into the
next hour. Reverend Peterson, again, I was disappointed the lack
(40:24):
of coverage you received on Saturday. This won't make up
for the lack of coverage, but at least it gives
a little more conversation and thought to the issue.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I appreciate it. Very well, appreciate it, look forward and
coming back on again.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Absolutely call anytime, Reverend Kevin Peterson, if you're on the line,
we can continue to talk about reparations here in Boston
or reparations in your community. I think it's an issue
that it is that it needs to be discussed, and
whatever your point of view is, welcome. Will be back
on Night's side right after the eleven o'clock news here
in Boston.
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