October 4, 2024 • 40 mins
The U.S. port strike of port workers and operators with the International Longshoremen’s Association reached an agreement with the United States Maritime Alliance after striking for three days. The new deal includes a 62% wage hike over six years. Will the short-lived strike have any impact on supply chains? Labor expert, Vinnie Vernuccio, president and co-founder of the Institute for the American Worker, joined Dan to discuss!
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio!
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Well, today was a really good day on the stock market,
as I think all of you know, and there were
a number of factors that I think caused this stock
market to have a good day, and one of them
was the decision last night to at least pause the
long shoreman strike. The International Long Showman's Association. It's confusing,
(00:28):
and I've tried to read as much as I could
about it in advance of tonight's interview. But we have
with us a labor expert. His name is Vinnie Vernuccio.
He's the president and co founder of the Institute for
the American Worker. I'm so glad, Vinnie that there's an
Institute for the American Worker, because I've done nothing in
my life except work. How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Tonight, I'm the same, I'm doing pretty well. Thank you
for having me on, Dan.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
You're very welcome. So let's talk about this strike. I
picked up bits and pieces, tried to read as much
as I could. So we have the East Coast, Gulf
Coast ISLA, the International Long Showman's Association, and there's a
West Coast Long Showman's Association. So let's get real basic here.
Why do we have two long showmen's associations on each coast.
(01:16):
I would think that the union would be smart to
have joined together.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Well, I mean that's one of the problems, and the
fact that they monopolize the entire coast. Remember, unions are
given an exemption from anti trust, so they can have
a monopoly. And that is right. The forty five about
roughly forty five thousand member Longshoreman Union essentially has a
monopoly on the entire East Coast. So when they go
(01:44):
on strike, which they did at the end of September,
they literally can just shut down anything coming into those parts.
And that's where you know, there's a lot of paddock
of what was going to happen. Yeah, we heard rumors
of the perishable foods were to be taken out, but
you know it is a real issue.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, I heard that people that was run just like
in the days of COVID, there was a run on
toilet paper at various supermarkets around the country. And I
guess ninety of toilet paper in America is produced domestically
and the other ten percent of produced in Canada. It's
produced in Canada or Mexico which meant the last thing
(02:23):
you need to I think, you know, you know, hoard
is told maybe other things you want to hoard, but
the long showman would not be involved into other So
is the group on the West Coast they negotiate a
separate contract? Is that? Is it the same?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Did they negotiated a separate contract in the last couple
of years. It's actually a little bit less than the
tentative And do you want to stress the term tentative
deal reached between the ports and the East Coast Longshoreman
and that deal is set to to expire on January fifteenth. Yeah,
(03:04):
so we will see what happens.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. Well, what I'm saying is I don't see this
strike is over. I think it has been suspended.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Is suspended is exactly the right is exactly the right word.
What they've done is they've come to a tentative deal
on wages. But when the union went out on strike,
the sports we're offering about fifty percent the union one
is seventy seven percent increase over the next six years.
(03:33):
They just compromised and they said that they'll agree to
sixty two percent wage increase over the next six years.
Now there's a couple really big sticking points.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Still.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
One of the.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Chief ones among them is automation, because the union is
worried that it'll cost jobs. But once again, you know,
US ports ranked pretty low compare it to others around
the country. We're we're pretty bottom of the barrel when
it comes to efficiency.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So AI point, Vinny, you said around the country. I
assume you mean around the world.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Excuse me, around the world. Excuse me.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Okay, So so let me come back. Let's get back
to the numbers for a second. It's it's in effect
the same union East Coast, West Coast, but they negotiate
separate contracts. Is that all right?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
We are just we are just talking about the East
Coast longshoremen.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Now, oh no, no, no, I know that. No, no, no,
I know that. But what I'm saying is, uh this
for me, whenever I dive into something, I go all fundamental.
So beer with me. So the people who are in
the union in the East Coast of the long Showman
and the long showmen of the West Coast, are they
in the same union or is it two separate unions
(04:52):
that represent two separate geographical there's commonality.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I think what you want to look at is the
collective bargaining agreement and those are two different collective bargaining agreement.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, I get that. I get that. So you have
East Coast folks have been without us. Their collective bargaining
agreement is expired, are about to expire. You said, I
think the West Coast did a deal a couple of
years ago. Right, that's cross Okay, So what happens is,
obviously the East Coast wants to get a better deal
(05:23):
than the West Coast. It's almost like when police and
firefighters negotiate with the city New York, Chicago of Boston.
Firefighters get their contract whatever it is, and the police said, well,
we want to get at least as much as the
firefighters and maybe more because our guys are out there,
you know, duck and bullets. And then the firefighters come
back and say, but yeah, but we're climbing ladders in
the middle of winter at a fire. So they sort
(05:47):
of kind of work off each other, which is fine, Okay,
give me an idea. And again you're my expert. So
if I'm asking you questions to which there are no answers,
I apologize. I just I'm not I'm trying to understand this.
What does a long shoreman here in Boston make? Roughly?
Is it based on seniority or if we're doing the
(06:10):
same job, I make the same money, do you know?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So I don't have the exact figures for Boston, but
I do have some of the figures that the Woman Mission,
especially you know, a little south in your neighbor. And
you know I don't want to get into a Red
Sox Yankees rivalry here.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
No, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely no, no no. Why
do you look? The cost of living might be more
in New York than it is in Boston, which might
be more than it is somewhere up up the coast
or down the coast. So give me, give me a
rough idea about what a long shoreman makes on the
East Coast. Just give me a rod.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Well, most are making most are making six figures, you know,
you see you see more than half, according to this
Waterfront Commission, made one hundred and fifty thousand or more. Uh,
you saw about twenty percent making a quarter million or more.
You see, you know, you know some of them making
four hundred and fifty thousand and half a million. That
(07:06):
would be president wow. Yeah, yeah. The well between sorry,
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'll get to him in a second. What I'm saying
is the guys who are men and of the women
who are making a lot, they're working a lot of
overtime I assume.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Okay, they're saying they worked about, yeah, one hundred hours
a week. Now. There's also other provisions in there, such
as something called container royalties, which you know, there's been
a lot of documentation that you know, a lot of
the longshoremen are doing you know, no show or little
show jobs because of the collective barg agreement. And once again,
(07:48):
that was a compromise in lieu of you know, having
a little bit more automation. So those are called container royalties.
So you know, one hundred hours may not be you know,
one hundred hours is actually on the job working.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Okay, fair enough. My guest is an expert, uh and
he's the president basically, he's a labor expert, president and
co founder of the Institute for the American Worker. I'm
stunned that the salaries are that high, and I'm stunned
at the fact that it sounds like the median salary is,
you know, about one hundred and fifty k. I mean,
(08:24):
that's that's a that's a pretty good job most people would.
Now if we have a we're going to get into
the raise that's being contemplated. You mentioned it was like
sixty two percent or whatever you you're going to If
you're making one hundred and fifty, that's going to be
fifteen thousand the first year seventeen thousand, the next year nineteenth.
(08:45):
You're going to all of a sudden, that's going to
raise that number. We'll get to all of that. If
any of you have questions about this this strike, which
again now is suspended, feel free to join the conversation.
Six one seven, two five for ten thirty six one
seven nine ten thirty. As I've often said, there's no
dumb question. The only dumb questions are the ones that
(09:06):
you're afraid to ask. It sounds to me like this
is a very well compensated job. I'm sure that there's
a history to it. I'm sure that these have been
a hard won collective bargaining agreements that have been built
up over time. I do when we get back, I
want to find out what the head of the union makes,
because I've seen some pictures an aerial shot of his home.
(09:27):
I think it's out in Los Angeles. It's a pretty nice,
nice place, at least from the year. We'll talk with
my guest Vinnie Vernuccio right after the break here on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now back to Dan Ray Mine from the window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
My guest is labor expert Vinnie Vernuccio, president and co
founder of the Institute of the American Worker. Okay, you
mentioned the president of the long Shoreman's Union, Harold Daggett.
Is he both coast in West coast?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
He is East coast? Yeah, he is making and I
know we were talking salary, and you know he lives
in New Jersey. You know, he does have a nice home.
He does have a nice boat, and he's clearing between
the national union and the and a president emeritus status
of a local union bout nine just under nine hundred
(10:24):
thousand a year.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I see. His salary is seven twenty eight with
the Longshoreman's Union and he has a pension of one
seventy three. He owns a seventy six foot yacht. I
haven't gotten a yacht yet. I assume Vinnie, you probably
don't have a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I hope I would love a seventy six foot yacht.
If you can hook me up with, you know, a
job like that, I'd be very grateful. So I can
afford a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Okay, well, obviously the dudes must be pretty substantial to
pay this gentleman that amount of money. So any union
head is looking to get the best deal for the union.
That's understandable. But let's if you're telling me the average
long showman on the East Coast and there are forty
five thousand of them are making a buck and a
(11:12):
half one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and that the
tentative agreement, which may eventually be the final agreement, is
sixty percent sixty two percent. I think you said over
six years. Correct me if I'm wrong here. But if
you're making one fifty and you get a ten percent
(11:37):
increase in the first year, now you're making what one's
sixty five? And now if you get.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Out, if you break it down, yeah, good, go ahead, No, no,
go ahead, I think I remember if this is all
about the overtime, but if you break it down hourly,
it's about thirty nine right now, and then going up
basically about four dollars an hour for the next six years.
But you know, with the overtime of one hundred hour weeks,
(12:07):
that's when those numbers really start to add up.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right. But even one of sayings, even for the for
the average worker, it's going to be a tremendous increase.
I work in a business here. I don't think we've
seen a contract like that, at least in my career,
which goes back a long, long way. What that means,
obviously is that this is great for the for the
(12:31):
forty five thousand member Long Showman Union, but it's going
to certainly add to inflation dramatically because all of these
businesses are going to pass those cross along. Correct.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Well, I mean, here's the thing, you know. You know
we're talking about salaries. You know, if they deserve it,
they deserve it. A they're working hard, they're working hard.
The problem is that the law is skewed so that
you know that that the long Shortman for the East Coast,
they have monopoly on the entire East Coast. That's granted
to him by law. There's other things in the law. Yeah,
there's other things in the law that you know, do
(13:06):
provide some safeguards, you know. Unfortunately, the President did not
exercise his ability and really didn't show his leadership and
that he frankly didn't believe in the law. This has
been called the Taft Hartley Act, which would allow the
president to come in at the starting to drag out
and say all right, no, you guys got to cool
off for about eighty days and come back to work
while we figure this out. You know, Biden said he
(13:28):
wasn't going to do.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
That, so he didn't impose He didn't impose Taft Haartly,
but he did get the equivalent of Taft Hartly because
they are they have suspended the work shoppage or the strike,
whatever you want to call it, until January fifteenth, So
Biden would say. President Biden would say, hey, I didn't
have to invoke Taft Haartly, but I got in effect
Taft Hartley, right or wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
That's right, and we'll see what happens in January.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, the way I look at
it is that this would have annored to the detriment
of the incumbent White House because if all of a sudden,
by mid October, now things on store shelves were disappearing
not because of hoarding, but because they were not being resupplied.
(14:17):
Prices would would have gone up. So is there a
political decision involved in this by any party? And I
assumed that the White House probably job owned this a
little bit by saying they would not invoke TAFT Hartly,
I assumed that put pressure on the owners of the
(14:38):
companies to come to a deal or at least a tenant.
How do I read that wrong?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
No, you're reading it right. And it wasn't just putting uh,
you know, pressure by not invoking TAFT. Partly, they were
definitely putting pressure on the owners to raise those wages.
And we'll see what happen. Especially, I mean, the real
forty issue here is the automation, which has not been
(15:05):
resolved yet. That's another reason why you excuse my misspeak
before that the US ports are lagging behind much of
the rest of the world, and that's in very large
part due to these collective bargaining bits. I mean, one
of the main impetuses behind the strike was, you know,
the the gates and I'm not talking about you know,
(15:25):
some shipping term or crate or anything o. You know,
literally gate opening, automation, pressing a button to open a
gate as opposed to doing that manually. So that's one
of the main things that the logshart men are are
flighting against it. They're using examples such as well, look
at easy paths and the total operators that are put
out of work. I mean, I don't know, you know,
(15:46):
you know, driving up there. I know easy pass at
least for me, has you know, helped a lot. It
helps reduce congestion, it helps reduce pollution, and I say
it's a good thing. And frankly, it's created job, especially
the administrative jobs, get people out of non climate controlled
toll booths. But unfortunately they.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Let me jump in on this, and I happen to
agree with you totally. I'm not a huge fan of automation.
I'm one of those guys who in the when I
go to the grocery store, I make it very clear
I don't want to go through the self checkout line
because I want to save the jobs of the people
who are working the cash registers. Now you may say
(16:29):
that I'm kind of old fashioned, but those folks are making,
you know, fifteen bucks an hour, and they're gonna if
everybody had plus. When I do the self checkout. I
don't get a break in the price. I'm sitting there
and if I make a mistake that you know, it's
like I'm doing the job of a cashier. And it's
(16:50):
like if I go buy a Christmas tree and buy
a tall Christmas tree, I don't want to have to
carry the Christmas tree to my car. You know, I
would assume that part of the serve. You know what
I'm trying to say. I mean, you know, if I
buy a washing machine at home depot or a refrigerator,
I do someone don't want someone to give me a
dolly and say, well, here's your refrigerator, take it out
(17:11):
of the car. I mean, you know, if you get
my drift. But if you're saying that we got to
keep a guy on for one hundred thousand dollars, who
every time a truck comes up, he pushes a button
as opposed to automating it. Look, everybody knows you're going
to a parking garage these days. You if you have
a garage passion, you tap the screen and the gate
(17:33):
opens up. That's the way it works. There's no not
someone there. It can be frustrating for people if you're
at a garage that one of the machines malfunctions on
and nobody can back up, and you're trying to get
home at ten o'clock after a player or show. But
(17:54):
what is your sense will happen on January fifteenth? Do
you think that an enough blood has been shed here
and enough words have been spoken that they will come
to an agreement, or do you think we might be
right back on January fifteenth where we were yesterday on
August third, on October third?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
You know, I hope they have an agreement. I hope
that it happens well before January fifteenth, that we're not
coming down to the wire here that we don't see
the strike, we don't see empty shelves. And remember, you know,
especially now with the hurricane, and you had Senator Tim
Scott saying, you guys can't go on strike, but they
did anyway because of the relief. Thankfully that's suspended. But
(18:37):
as far as January fifteenth, you know, I hope it
doesn't happen. I don't know if the election in November
is going to affect that one way or the other,
but you know, the hope is that they do come
to an agreement, they come into an agreement that helps
the long shoreman but also allows for port efficiency and
you know, we can you know, make sure that you
know this type of monopoly that is given to long
(19:00):
shoreman doesn't cripple the economy like it has the ability
to do.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Right now, Last question, and we got to go to
a newscast and we'll take some phone calls on the
other side. Last question, you talked about how there's more
automation imports. I assume you mentioned in Europe and other
parts of the world. What other than let's say some
guy sitting there pressing a button so the gate opens.
He's in a guardhouse, hopefully nice and warm with some
(19:28):
you know, work a time with footwarmers or something like that.
What sort of automation are they fighting against. I assume
that when these huge vehicles come off, they're not being
lifted up by the long shoreman that's coming off. With
the cranes. I assume there's somebody who's operating a crane.
They would eliminate those crane operators and have that done robotically.
(19:50):
Is that what they're talking about?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
You know, I'm not an expert in exactly how the
ports operate, but I will tell you that there has
been studies like RODERDAE, for instance, is one of the
most automated forms in the country, and you know, there's
been studies showing that that actually did not significantly affect
increased job losses. There was a study out of California,
(20:15):
Berkeley specifically, that showed that when Los Angeles adopted some automation,
paid hours for the union members actually grew by over
eleven percent. And I mean you can even look to
other industries Kaiser Permanente, when they switched from paper to
digital medical records, they retrained the staff, the people that
(20:37):
were the truckers that were carrying those records, the librarians,
and you really did not see many job losses because
of the retrading and reassign it. So when you're talking
about automation, yeah, it could be scary. It's changed. Change
is scary, but it's not like a lot of people
are going out on the street because of it. It's
(20:57):
changing roles and increasing efficiency.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
All right, My guest is Vinny Vernuccio, president and co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker. We'll get
some phone calls. Feel free to join the conversation if
you have a strong thought on this. Either way, you're welcome.
If you want to ask a question, you're welcome. It's
one of the It is a huge issue, in my opinion,
a huge issue because I like a lot of strikes.
If there's a teacher's union strike in a city, if
(21:25):
you don't live in that city, it's probably not going
to affect you a whole lot. It's going to have
a tremendous impact on the people who live in that
city and who have children in the school system. But
a strike by longshoreman would affect each and every one
of us. A prolonged strike by long shoreman would really
impact a lot of us, virtually everybody in some form
(21:45):
of fashion. That's why this issue is so important. If
you'd like to join the conversation and ask my guest
a question or or pose an argument, we can do
it politely, as we always do. One night Side six
one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six seven, one,
ten thirty will get you on and we'll take a
quick break for the news and be back right after this.
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
You're on n Side with Dan Ray on w BZ,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Thank you, Nicole, And that's an interesting side story here.
I'm not going to ask Vernuccio about the Boston hotel strike,
but that would have quite an impact here in Boston, Vinnie.
I was just reading today that Harold Daggett, who's the
head of the union, that has been head of the union,
I guess for quite a while, has always had good
(22:34):
relations with Joe Biden, President Biden, and as a matter
of fact, endorsed Biden in twenty twenty uh and said some,
you know, fairly tough things about Donald Trump. He he
said positive things about Joe Biden, but then he he's
(22:59):
a parent on he met with Trump, and he has
he has he's he kind of plays both both sides
of the political aisle here, so he's he sounds like
he's functioning in the best interests of his membership. That's
very that's very very for certain, very effective union leader,
if I might, if I if I read this correctly.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Oh, it sounds like you know, Sean O'Brien with the
Teamsters that you know obviously met what trum spoke at
the Republican National Convention. You know, the only problem there,
and you know, I guess, well, you know, back away
from the long strum and talk about, you know, unions
and union leadership in general, is that you know, despite
some lip service and you know, to their credit actually
reaching out, uh, you know, they do have views that
(23:41):
are opposite to a lot of their members. And you know,
looking specifically at the Teamsters, you see that almost sixty
percent of surveyed Teamster members support the pre support President Trump.
And you know, you see the former president over overpolling
and doing much better than typical Republicans with union members
(24:02):
across the country, except that the union leadership still doubles
down and they usually go for Democrats. And you saw
that with a non endorsement with the Teamsters, where they
had this you know, crazy double standard where it was, well,
you know Vice President Harris did not get a majority
of the votes, so we can endorse her, but President,
(24:23):
former President Trump did not get universal support, so we
can't endorse him.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
No, I get that. And also today the International Association
of Firefighters, which has always been a go to union
for the Democratic presidential nominee, they took the same position
as the Teamsters and that they would not issue an endorsement. Now,
in twenty twenty, the Long Showman and specifically the head
(24:49):
of the union. This fellow named Daggett endorsed President Biden.
They have a long standing I guess friendship and relationship,
but now he's apparently well. For example, the ISLA endorsed,
according to This Week magazine, Biden's campaign for the White House.
(25:10):
This is in twenty twenty, and the quote said Daggett said,
Joe Biden's friendship and support of the ISLEA goes back
decades from his time as a US Senator from Delaware.
Daggett added that the Democrat was quote the best candidate
in twenty twenty to defeat Donald Trump in return honored
dignity and prosperity to the United States of America. Subsequently
(25:30):
that he's met with Trump and apparently they have an
interesting relationship. Let's grab a phone call here, see we
get the phone line started a little bit. Let me
go to Jim in New York. H Jim, welcome your
first this hour with Vinnie Ernuccio, a labor expert co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Go right ahead, Jim, Hey guys, thanks, Yeah. I just
had a couple of comments. Number one, I mean I
used to be a union member down in New York City.
I live in upstate New York for like the last
thirty seven years, and we had a thing in the
Operating Engineers Construction Union Local I was in that regarded
reducing force. I do HVAC, and automation was already a
(26:11):
big thing then and I still do it, and it's
just gone on steroids on that now where the union
had to acknowledge that, you know, you're not going to
have like the nineteen forties stuff where guys had to
make adjustments manually in real time due to shifting loads.
This could all be all automated, and it was. And
(26:35):
you know, you can run a build a high rise
building in Manhattan now on half the crew. Like when
I was down there, you'd have an eight man crew
and say a forty five story building. That building can
be run on five or four guys now. So I
don't see how this union can resist that juggernaut, you know,
(26:55):
I mean, you're almost like a Luddite, like, you know,
you're not going to like understand that, you know. I
mean it's almost like you know, when the automobile supplic
you know, surpassed or supplanted the horse, you know, I
mean if it's all over the world, which is what
I'm hearing from you guys, and I've read it elsewhere Europe,
you know, all over Asia, the West coast of North America.
(27:21):
I just think it's a matter of time before they
have to accede and say, hey, you know, we gotta
step in line with that. What do you think.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Let's let me get Vinnie's reaction, and then I have
a comment that I want to make. Go ahead, Vinnie. Sure.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I mean, you know, you see the rest of the
world automating. You see the efficiencies, but you also see that,
you know, there's a lot of people being retrained, so
you know it may not be as stark as far
as the job losses go. And I you know, talked
about a couple of those studies that you know came
out of I read those. You know, the AP just
sided those and you know between the University of California
(27:59):
and then some of the other or was the Kaiser
Permanente example. But yeah, I mean, you know, you're going
to get to the point where you can't have people
with clipboards, you know, checking off containers. Things are going
to modernize, and you know.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
That easy pass and I mean, you know the mass Pike.
I mean, I go over to Eastern mass in New
Hampshire main every year, and we were annoyed over here,
like when's the New York State Thruway going to get
in line with the Mass Pike because you guys had
easy pass ahead of us. And then finally they did,
(28:34):
but it was fought because you know, look, I'm not like,
you know, downgrading people, but I mean, you know, we
can't be collecting nickels and quarters at toll boots anymore.
It makes no sense. And they finally did automate the
entire New York State Thruway, so, you know, several years
(28:56):
after the mass Pike. So I see that coming. You know,
with this, you know, it's like West host East Coast.
You guys are gonna maybe you'll get the contract you
want and maybe you'll delay it. But I don't see
it as inevitable, or I see it as inevitable that's
gonna happen at some point in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Okay, here's my question. Let me jump in here, and again,
Vinnie knows more about this than I do, and you
very well may know more about this than I do,
but I believe and I've just learned this from conversations
with friends of mine, that it's a lot easier to
become a long shoreman to get into the union. If
your daddy or uncle was a long shoreman.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Well, that's how I got into the operating engineers or
in the early eighties because of my post.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
So no, no, no. So the point that I'm trying
to make is that unlike let us say, the teachers' unions,
which are very strong in Massachusetts, and the teachers' unions
are sort of fighting for themselves, we have the school
population is decreasing just because the birth rate is decreasing.
(30:01):
Its decreasing, but they want to maintain the jobs. The
long shoremen probably are interested in maintaining the jobs so
that their progeny can come on and clear.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
It these jobs.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Okay, So my point is does that make it? Does
that make it? Here's my question. Agreeing to the to
the premise, does that make it more difficult for the
the owners, the operators, whatever you want to call them,
to convince this union to do something that is inevitable,
maybe because it affects not just them in the short term,
(30:38):
but it affects their kids and their grand their grandsons
or granddaughters now as well maybe and their grandchildren going forward.
They look at this long shoreman's position in some cases
as a family business.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Well that's true. I mean, or is Anny gonna jump in?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
But why don't you answer first and then we'll get
Vinnie go ahead?
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Okay. I remember it was very nepotistic forty five years
ago when I got in like they you know, some
of these unions, and they were mobbed up then. I
don't know that the long shoremen and are now, but
I you know, I'm thinking back on the water.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
If it was a period. There was a period. As
a matter of fact, Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Yes, yes, we were mobbed up and it was like,
you know, I remember one guy wanted to get into
another union. They said you got to have three dead
relatives to get in here. You know, it's just like ridiculous.
And I think that's faded away, but I but back then, yes,
you know, you used to have to have a hook.
They called it a hook.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Okay, so let me get let me get Vinnie in here. Vinnie.
I'm just raising this issue because there's more at stake
for these current the current union members. They're not only
about thinking about their salary this year, their salary next year,
the salary five or ten years from now, but they're
thinking about their kids' salaries. Yeah, thirty five, forty years
from now.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, I mean the main issue here is that there's
zero competition because, like you said, you know, you've got
the West Coast longshoreman, you've got the East Coast long showmen.
They've got the monopoly. So really, if you want to
get into this country, I mean, the less we're going
to start shipping everything to Mexico and then driving it
up there or taking a rail up there. There really
is no other choice. So, you know, aside from the
(32:22):
family ties or the nepotism or the things that we're
talking about, you know, when you look at the way
it's structured and the problems that the law allows it
to have, and the fact that they're under this specific
law versus let's say, a law that applies to the
railroads and airlines, which you know we could talk about
that have different provisions to prevent these type of strikes.
(32:43):
You know, that really is the problem. So you know, yes,
you could look, you know, is there family relationships, are
they're looking to hand down the jobs to you know,
the next generation things like that, but you know, stepping
back and what can actually be done. That's when you
look at all, Right, well, maybe we should reassess this monopoly,
or maybe we should reassess well, the longshoreman h you know,
(33:04):
should be considered the same as let's say those hotel workers,
or because of the stranglehold that they can put on
the economy, they should be considered like the railroad or
the airlines, which are in a special law called the
Railway Act specifically, so they can't put a chokehold on
the economy.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right, you have to you have to find the will
in Congress to change the law. And I don't think
you're going to find that will in Congress at this
point anyway. Gentlemen, heyk King with us here, Vinnie Bernuccio,
and I want to thank Jim in New York. Jim,
have you called me for Is this your first time calling?
Speaker 4 (33:39):
The last time I talked was three years ago, But
I should call more frequently.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, I'd appreciate it because you're a great caller.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Thank you so much, Thank you, Dan, thank you Vinny.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Okay, welcome, thanks for listening to us up in New York.
Over in New York, six four thirty, six thirty. I
got wide open lines here. I think it's a fascinating topic.
Is a labor expert, co founder of the Institute for
the American Worker, Vinnie Ernuccio. Let's keep at it. If
(34:08):
you've got a question, you want to make a comment.
I was hoping here from some long shoremen during this
segment tonight. You're more than welcome to call. We're going
to wrap it at ten o'clock. We got about ten
more minutes left. Feel free to take advantage of it.
We are going to talk about the impact of Hurricane Helene.
We have Massachusetts what's called the Massachusetts Task Force one,
(34:30):
an urban search and rescue team in North Carolina tonight,
and we're going to talk to a member of that
group during next hour. And I'm also going to raise
some questions about does this give you some pause to
decide whether or not you might move to that part
of the country. We get to all of that, but
let's continue to talk about the long Showman's Union. Now.
I know if they had gone on strike and people
(34:51):
had found that they couldn't get something at the stores
that they want, the phone lines would be lit up.
Feel free. You got the numbers coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
My guess is Vinnie Bernuccio. He's the president of the
Institute for the American Worker. Vinnie just getting away from
the longshoreman impass for the moment. Just a quick question,
why is it do you think that unions seem to
be losing, if not control over their membership, at least
losing the direction of their membership. I mean, there was
(35:29):
a time when I was your age, and I'm a
lot older than you are, when you could count that
a union endorsement really had an impact and you knew
that the union leadership was speaking in concert with the
union membership. That seems to me to be less so.
And certainly Donald Trump has made some inroads into the
(35:52):
union base. Witnessed the non endorsements from the IAAF, the
International Association of Firefighters as well as the Teamsters Union
that some other Republicans like Ronny McCain George Bush weren't
able to make. What's going on?
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Oh, I mean, I do think that the union leadership
is out of touch with their membership, and you know,
nothing says that more than you know, the recent Teamsters
example of the non endorsement, yet the you know, almost
sixty percent of the membership that supported Donald Trump. You know,
you're also seeing it just when it comes to politics.
You know, typically a third to forty percent of union
(36:30):
households typically vote Republican. Yet the vast majority you know,
eighty ninety plus percent of union endorsements and union political
money usually goes to Democrats. So there's a political problem there.
But you know, as far as unions in general, even
getting away from politics, and I do think the longshoremen
with their push against automation kind of encapsulates this, is
(36:52):
that unions really are in this industrial revolution one size
fits all adversarial mentality, and the collective bargting business model
is based in the you know, essentially the nineteen thirties
with unskilled workers working in factories. That doesn't translate into
today's modern workforce. You know. In fact, they wrote a
(37:13):
study for the Backetaw Center about how unions can improve
and become like professional service organizations, being unions for the
twenty first century, embracing voluntary unionism, embracing things like merit pay.
So not the only way to get ahead is by
logging another year on the job and embracing flexibility. Unfortunately,
(37:33):
that just hasn't happened. I think that's another reason why
unions just simply aren't. Their membership is not keeping up
with the rest of the economy because they're selling a
product that is outdated and that most modern workers don't want.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Well, the only point I will make here is that
if the International Longshoreman's Association does get this contract sixty
two percent of whatever it is over six years, they're
going to be way ahead of the rest of the
other than maybe NFL and NBA players. They're going to
be on a percentage basis highly compensated. So this union,
(38:10):
and it obviously has some carveouts for it and some exemptions,
some anti trust exemptions, which is very favorable to the union.
Anti trust exemptions in sports back in the nineteen forties
and fifties was favorable to the owners, not to the athletes.
This is now, in my opinion, just the opposite that
(38:33):
the anti trust provision is beneficial to the workers and
maybe tilts the bargaining table a little bit more in
favor of the workers.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Fair analysis or no, it is the only issue is
you know, we're not talking about, you know, the unions
getting monopoly over the workforce at a faculty, which you
know we can debate about. You know, we're talking about
the union having a monopoly on everything coming into the
country on the East coast or in the Gulf. So
(39:05):
you know there's a much orguration here.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah. But again, whether or not you're ever going to
get Congress to allow competing companies inside these ports, well,
I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime.
Maybe it will happen in your lifetime, Vina, thank you
for joining us tonight. Vincent Vernuccio, the president and co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker. Interesting topic
for me. I'm fascinated by this. I know our audience
(39:31):
was listening, but I think you answered their questions and
we'd like to keep in touch with you. You're a great guest.
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And by the way, you can put this up on
your website. All you have to do sometime tomorrow is
go to Nightside on demand dot com and you can
pull that down from our podcast page, which Rob will
be happy to give you that information if you want
to hold on and you can circulate it amongst the
supporters of your organizations. So stay there and Rob will
(40:01):
give you the information more quickly. When we get back,
we're going to talk about this incredible hurricane. More than
two hundred and twenty people at this point are confirmed dead,
and that number still is going to rise in the
next few weeks. We'll be talking with a member of
the Massachusetts Task Force one, an urban search and rescue
team on the ground in North Carolina. After the ten
(40:21):
o'clock news
It's nice side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Well, today was a really good day on the stock market,
as I think all of you know, and there were
a number of factors that I think caused this stock
market to have a good day, and one of them
was the decision last night to at least pause the
long shoreman strike. The International Long Showman's Association. It's confusing,
(00:28):
and I've tried to read as much as I could
about it in advance of tonight's interview. But we have
with us a labor expert. His name is Vinnie Vernuccio.
He's the president and co founder of the Institute for
the American Worker. I'm so glad, Vinnie that there's an
Institute for the American Worker, because I've done nothing in
my life except work. How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Tonight, I'm the same, I'm doing pretty well. Thank you
for having me on, Dan.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
You're very welcome. So let's talk about this strike. I
picked up bits and pieces, tried to read as much
as I could. So we have the East Coast, Gulf
Coast ISLA, the International Long Showman's Association, and there's a
West Coast Long Showman's Association. So let's get real basic here.
Why do we have two long showmen's associations on each coast.
(01:16):
I would think that the union would be smart to
have joined together.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Well, I mean that's one of the problems, and the
fact that they monopolize the entire coast. Remember, unions are
given an exemption from anti trust, so they can have
a monopoly. And that is right. The forty five about
roughly forty five thousand member Longshoreman Union essentially has a
monopoly on the entire East Coast. So when they go
(01:44):
on strike, which they did at the end of September,
they literally can just shut down anything coming into those parts.
And that's where you know, there's a lot of paddock
of what was going to happen. Yeah, we heard rumors
of the perishable foods were to be taken out, but
you know it is a real issue.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, I heard that people that was run just like
in the days of COVID, there was a run on
toilet paper at various supermarkets around the country. And I
guess ninety of toilet paper in America is produced domestically
and the other ten percent of produced in Canada. It's
produced in Canada or Mexico which meant the last thing
(02:23):
you need to I think, you know, you know, hoard
is told maybe other things you want to hoard, but
the long showman would not be involved into other So
is the group on the West Coast they negotiate a
separate contract? Is that? Is it the same?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Did they negotiated a separate contract in the last couple
of years. It's actually a little bit less than the
tentative And do you want to stress the term tentative
deal reached between the ports and the East Coast Longshoreman
and that deal is set to to expire on January fifteenth. Yeah,
(03:04):
so we will see what happens.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. Well, what I'm saying is I don't see this
strike is over. I think it has been suspended.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Is suspended is exactly the right is exactly the right word.
What they've done is they've come to a tentative deal
on wages. But when the union went out on strike,
the sports we're offering about fifty percent the union one
is seventy seven percent increase over the next six years.
(03:33):
They just compromised and they said that they'll agree to
sixty two percent wage increase over the next six years.
Now there's a couple really big sticking points.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Still.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
One of the.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Chief ones among them is automation, because the union is
worried that it'll cost jobs. But once again, you know,
US ports ranked pretty low compare it to others around
the country. We're we're pretty bottom of the barrel when
it comes to efficiency.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So AI point, Vinny, you said around the country. I
assume you mean around the world.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Excuse me, around the world. Excuse me.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Okay, So so let me come back. Let's get back
to the numbers for a second. It's it's in effect
the same union East Coast, West Coast, but they negotiate
separate contracts. Is that all right?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
We are just we are just talking about the East
Coast longshoremen.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Now, oh no, no, no, I know that. No, no, no,
I know that. But what I'm saying is, uh this
for me, whenever I dive into something, I go all fundamental.
So beer with me. So the people who are in
the union in the East Coast of the long Showman
and the long showmen of the West Coast, are they
in the same union or is it two separate unions
(04:52):
that represent two separate geographical there's commonality.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I think what you want to look at is the
collective bargaining agreement and those are two different collective bargaining agreement.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, I get that. I get that. So you have
East Coast folks have been without us. Their collective bargaining
agreement is expired, are about to expire. You said, I
think the West Coast did a deal a couple of
years ago. Right, that's cross Okay, So what happens is,
obviously the East Coast wants to get a better deal
(05:23):
than the West Coast. It's almost like when police and
firefighters negotiate with the city New York, Chicago of Boston.
Firefighters get their contract whatever it is, and the police said, well,
we want to get at least as much as the
firefighters and maybe more because our guys are out there,
you know, duck and bullets. And then the firefighters come
back and say, but yeah, but we're climbing ladders in
the middle of winter at a fire. So they sort
(05:47):
of kind of work off each other, which is fine, Okay,
give me an idea. And again you're my expert. So
if I'm asking you questions to which there are no answers,
I apologize. I just I'm not I'm trying to understand this.
What does a long shoreman here in Boston make? Roughly?
Is it based on seniority or if we're doing the
(06:10):
same job, I make the same money, do you know?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So I don't have the exact figures for Boston, but
I do have some of the figures that the Woman Mission,
especially you know, a little south in your neighbor. And
you know I don't want to get into a Red
Sox Yankees rivalry here.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
No, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely no, no no. Why
do you look? The cost of living might be more
in New York than it is in Boston, which might
be more than it is somewhere up up the coast
or down the coast. So give me, give me a
rough idea about what a long shoreman makes on the
East Coast. Just give me a rod.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Well, most are making most are making six figures, you know,
you see you see more than half, according to this
Waterfront Commission, made one hundred and fifty thousand or more. Uh,
you saw about twenty percent making a quarter million or more.
You see, you know, you know some of them making
four hundred and fifty thousand and half a million. That
(07:06):
would be president wow. Yeah, yeah. The well between sorry,
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'll get to him in a second. What I'm saying
is the guys who are men and of the women
who are making a lot, they're working a lot of
overtime I assume.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Okay, they're saying they worked about, yeah, one hundred hours
a week. Now. There's also other provisions in there, such
as something called container royalties, which you know, there's been
a lot of documentation that you know, a lot of
the longshoremen are doing you know, no show or little
show jobs because of the collective barg agreement. And once again,
(07:48):
that was a compromise in lieu of you know, having
a little bit more automation. So those are called container royalties.
So you know, one hundred hours may not be you know,
one hundred hours is actually on the job working.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Okay, fair enough. My guest is an expert, uh and
he's the president basically, he's a labor expert, president and
co founder of the Institute for the American Worker. I'm
stunned that the salaries are that high, and I'm stunned
at the fact that it sounds like the median salary is,
you know, about one hundred and fifty k. I mean,
(08:24):
that's that's a that's a pretty good job most people would.
Now if we have a we're going to get into
the raise that's being contemplated. You mentioned it was like
sixty two percent or whatever you you're going to If
you're making one hundred and fifty, that's going to be
fifteen thousand the first year seventeen thousand, the next year nineteenth.
(08:45):
You're going to all of a sudden, that's going to
raise that number. We'll get to all of that. If
any of you have questions about this this strike, which
again now is suspended, feel free to join the conversation.
Six one seven, two five for ten thirty six one
seven nine ten thirty. As I've often said, there's no
dumb question. The only dumb questions are the ones that
(09:06):
you're afraid to ask. It sounds to me like this
is a very well compensated job. I'm sure that there's
a history to it. I'm sure that these have been
a hard won collective bargaining agreements that have been built
up over time. I do when we get back, I
want to find out what the head of the union makes,
because I've seen some pictures an aerial shot of his home.
(09:27):
I think it's out in Los Angeles. It's a pretty nice,
nice place, at least from the year. We'll talk with
my guest Vinnie Vernuccio right after the break here on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now back to Dan Ray Mine from the window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
My guest is labor expert Vinnie Vernuccio, president and co
founder of the Institute of the American Worker. Okay, you
mentioned the president of the long Shoreman's Union, Harold Daggett.
Is he both coast in West coast?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
He is East coast? Yeah, he is making and I
know we were talking salary, and you know he lives
in New Jersey. You know, he does have a nice home.
He does have a nice boat, and he's clearing between
the national union and the and a president emeritus status
of a local union bout nine just under nine hundred
(10:24):
thousand a year.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I see. His salary is seven twenty eight with
the Longshoreman's Union and he has a pension of one
seventy three. He owns a seventy six foot yacht. I
haven't gotten a yacht yet. I assume Vinnie, you probably
don't have a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I hope I would love a seventy six foot yacht.
If you can hook me up with, you know, a
job like that, I'd be very grateful. So I can
afford a seventy six foot yacht.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Okay, well, obviously the dudes must be pretty substantial to
pay this gentleman that amount of money. So any union
head is looking to get the best deal for the union.
That's understandable. But let's if you're telling me the average
long showman on the East Coast and there are forty
five thousand of them are making a buck and a
(11:12):
half one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and that the
tentative agreement, which may eventually be the final agreement, is
sixty percent sixty two percent. I think you said over
six years. Correct me if I'm wrong here. But if
you're making one fifty and you get a ten percent
(11:37):
increase in the first year, now you're making what one's
sixty five? And now if you get.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Out, if you break it down, yeah, good, go ahead, No, no,
go ahead, I think I remember if this is all
about the overtime, but if you break it down hourly,
it's about thirty nine right now, and then going up
basically about four dollars an hour for the next six years.
But you know, with the overtime of one hundred hour weeks,
(12:07):
that's when those numbers really start to add up.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right. But even one of sayings, even for the for
the average worker, it's going to be a tremendous increase.
I work in a business here. I don't think we've
seen a contract like that, at least in my career,
which goes back a long, long way. What that means,
obviously is that this is great for the for the
(12:31):
forty five thousand member Long Showman Union, but it's going
to certainly add to inflation dramatically because all of these
businesses are going to pass those cross along. Correct.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Well, I mean, here's the thing, you know. You know
we're talking about salaries. You know, if they deserve it,
they deserve it. A they're working hard, they're working hard.
The problem is that the law is skewed so that
you know that that the long Shortman for the East Coast,
they have monopoly on the entire East Coast. That's granted
to him by law. There's other things in the law. Yeah,
there's other things in the law that you know, do
(13:06):
provide some safeguards, you know. Unfortunately, the President did not
exercise his ability and really didn't show his leadership and
that he frankly didn't believe in the law. This has
been called the Taft Hartley Act, which would allow the
president to come in at the starting to drag out
and say all right, no, you guys got to cool
off for about eighty days and come back to work
while we figure this out. You know, Biden said he
(13:28):
wasn't going to do.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
That, so he didn't impose He didn't impose Taft Haartly,
but he did get the equivalent of Taft Hartly because
they are they have suspended the work shoppage or the strike,
whatever you want to call it, until January fifteenth, So
Biden would say. President Biden would say, hey, I didn't
have to invoke Taft Haartly, but I got in effect
Taft Hartley, right or wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
That's right, and we'll see what happens in January.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, the way I look at
it is that this would have annored to the detriment
of the incumbent White House because if all of a sudden,
by mid October, now things on store shelves were disappearing
not because of hoarding, but because they were not being resupplied.
(14:17):
Prices would would have gone up. So is there a
political decision involved in this by any party? And I
assumed that the White House probably job owned this a
little bit by saying they would not invoke TAFT Hartly,
I assumed that put pressure on the owners of the
(14:38):
companies to come to a deal or at least a tenant.
How do I read that wrong?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
No, you're reading it right. And it wasn't just putting uh,
you know, pressure by not invoking TAFT. Partly, they were
definitely putting pressure on the owners to raise those wages.
And we'll see what happen. Especially, I mean, the real
forty issue here is the automation, which has not been
(15:05):
resolved yet. That's another reason why you excuse my misspeak
before that the US ports are lagging behind much of
the rest of the world, and that's in very large
part due to these collective bargaining bits. I mean, one
of the main impetuses behind the strike was, you know,
the the gates and I'm not talking about you know,
(15:25):
some shipping term or crate or anything o. You know,
literally gate opening, automation, pressing a button to open a
gate as opposed to doing that manually. So that's one
of the main things that the logshart men are are
flighting against it. They're using examples such as well, look
at easy paths and the total operators that are put
out of work. I mean, I don't know, you know,
(15:46):
you know, driving up there. I know easy pass at
least for me, has you know, helped a lot. It
helps reduce congestion, it helps reduce pollution, and I say
it's a good thing. And frankly, it's created job, especially
the administrative jobs, get people out of non climate controlled
toll booths. But unfortunately they.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Let me jump in on this, and I happen to
agree with you totally. I'm not a huge fan of automation.
I'm one of those guys who in the when I
go to the grocery store, I make it very clear
I don't want to go through the self checkout line
because I want to save the jobs of the people
who are working the cash registers. Now you may say
(16:29):
that I'm kind of old fashioned, but those folks are making,
you know, fifteen bucks an hour, and they're gonna if
everybody had plus. When I do the self checkout. I
don't get a break in the price. I'm sitting there
and if I make a mistake that you know, it's
like I'm doing the job of a cashier. And it's
(16:50):
like if I go buy a Christmas tree and buy
a tall Christmas tree, I don't want to have to
carry the Christmas tree to my car. You know, I
would assume that part of the serve. You know what
I'm trying to say. I mean, you know, if I
buy a washing machine at home depot or a refrigerator,
I do someone don't want someone to give me a
dolly and say, well, here's your refrigerator, take it out
(17:11):
of the car. I mean, you know, if you get
my drift. But if you're saying that we got to
keep a guy on for one hundred thousand dollars, who
every time a truck comes up, he pushes a button
as opposed to automating it. Look, everybody knows you're going
to a parking garage these days. You if you have
a garage passion, you tap the screen and the gate
(17:33):
opens up. That's the way it works. There's no not
someone there. It can be frustrating for people if you're
at a garage that one of the machines malfunctions on
and nobody can back up, and you're trying to get
home at ten o'clock after a player or show. But
(17:54):
what is your sense will happen on January fifteenth? Do
you think that an enough blood has been shed here
and enough words have been spoken that they will come
to an agreement, or do you think we might be
right back on January fifteenth where we were yesterday on
August third, on October third?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
You know, I hope they have an agreement. I hope
that it happens well before January fifteenth, that we're not
coming down to the wire here that we don't see
the strike, we don't see empty shelves. And remember, you know,
especially now with the hurricane, and you had Senator Tim
Scott saying, you guys can't go on strike, but they
did anyway because of the relief. Thankfully that's suspended. But
(18:37):
as far as January fifteenth, you know, I hope it
doesn't happen. I don't know if the election in November
is going to affect that one way or the other,
but you know, the hope is that they do come
to an agreement, they come into an agreement that helps
the long shoreman but also allows for port efficiency and
you know, we can you know, make sure that you
know this type of monopoly that is given to long
(19:00):
shoreman doesn't cripple the economy like it has the ability
to do.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Right now, Last question, and we got to go to
a newscast and we'll take some phone calls on the
other side. Last question, you talked about how there's more
automation imports. I assume you mentioned in Europe and other
parts of the world. What other than let's say some
guy sitting there pressing a button so the gate opens.
He's in a guardhouse, hopefully nice and warm with some
(19:28):
you know, work a time with footwarmers or something like that.
What sort of automation are they fighting against. I assume
that when these huge vehicles come off, they're not being
lifted up by the long shoreman that's coming off. With
the cranes. I assume there's somebody who's operating a crane.
They would eliminate those crane operators and have that done robotically.
(19:50):
Is that what they're talking about?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
You know, I'm not an expert in exactly how the
ports operate, but I will tell you that there has
been studies like RODERDAE, for instance, is one of the
most automated forms in the country, and you know, there's
been studies showing that that actually did not significantly affect
increased job losses. There was a study out of California,
(20:15):
Berkeley specifically, that showed that when Los Angeles adopted some automation,
paid hours for the union members actually grew by over
eleven percent. And I mean you can even look to
other industries Kaiser Permanente, when they switched from paper to
digital medical records, they retrained the staff, the people that
(20:37):
were the truckers that were carrying those records, the librarians,
and you really did not see many job losses because
of the retrading and reassign it. So when you're talking
about automation, yeah, it could be scary. It's changed. Change
is scary, but it's not like a lot of people
are going out on the street because of it. It's
(20:57):
changing roles and increasing efficiency.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
All right, My guest is Vinny Vernuccio, president and co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker. We'll get
some phone calls. Feel free to join the conversation if
you have a strong thought on this. Either way, you're welcome.
If you want to ask a question, you're welcome. It's
one of the It is a huge issue, in my opinion,
a huge issue because I like a lot of strikes.
If there's a teacher's union strike in a city, if
(21:25):
you don't live in that city, it's probably not going
to affect you a whole lot. It's going to have
a tremendous impact on the people who live in that
city and who have children in the school system. But
a strike by longshoreman would affect each and every one
of us. A prolonged strike by long shoreman would really
impact a lot of us, virtually everybody in some form
(21:45):
of fashion. That's why this issue is so important. If
you'd like to join the conversation and ask my guest
a question or or pose an argument, we can do
it politely, as we always do. One night Side six
one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six seven, one,
ten thirty will get you on and we'll take a
quick break for the news and be back right after this.
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
You're on n Side with Dan Ray on w BZ,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Thank you, Nicole, And that's an interesting side story here.
I'm not going to ask Vernuccio about the Boston hotel strike,
but that would have quite an impact here in Boston, Vinnie.
I was just reading today that Harold Daggett, who's the
head of the union, that has been head of the union,
I guess for quite a while, has always had good
(22:34):
relations with Joe Biden, President Biden, and as a matter
of fact, endorsed Biden in twenty twenty uh and said some,
you know, fairly tough things about Donald Trump. He he
said positive things about Joe Biden, but then he he's
(22:59):
a parent on he met with Trump, and he has
he has he's he kind of plays both both sides
of the political aisle here, so he's he sounds like
he's functioning in the best interests of his membership. That's
very that's very very for certain, very effective union leader,
if I might, if I if I read this correctly.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Oh, it sounds like you know, Sean O'Brien with the
Teamsters that you know obviously met what trum spoke at
the Republican National Convention. You know, the only problem there,
and you know, I guess, well, you know, back away
from the long strum and talk about, you know, unions
and union leadership in general, is that you know, despite
some lip service and you know, to their credit actually
reaching out, uh, you know, they do have views that
(23:41):
are opposite to a lot of their members. And you know,
looking specifically at the Teamsters, you see that almost sixty
percent of surveyed Teamster members support the pre support President Trump.
And you know, you see the former president over overpolling
and doing much better than typical Republicans with union members
(24:02):
across the country, except that the union leadership still doubles
down and they usually go for Democrats. And you saw
that with a non endorsement with the Teamsters, where they
had this you know, crazy double standard where it was, well,
you know Vice President Harris did not get a majority
of the votes, so we can endorse her, but President,
(24:23):
former President Trump did not get universal support, so we
can't endorse him.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
No, I get that. And also today the International Association
of Firefighters, which has always been a go to union
for the Democratic presidential nominee, they took the same position
as the Teamsters and that they would not issue an endorsement. Now,
in twenty twenty, the Long Showman and specifically the head
(24:49):
of the union. This fellow named Daggett endorsed President Biden.
They have a long standing I guess friendship and relationship,
but now he's apparently well. For example, the ISLA endorsed,
according to This Week magazine, Biden's campaign for the White House.
(25:10):
This is in twenty twenty, and the quote said Daggett said,
Joe Biden's friendship and support of the ISLEA goes back
decades from his time as a US Senator from Delaware.
Daggett added that the Democrat was quote the best candidate
in twenty twenty to defeat Donald Trump in return honored
dignity and prosperity to the United States of America. Subsequently
(25:30):
that he's met with Trump and apparently they have an
interesting relationship. Let's grab a phone call here, see we
get the phone line started a little bit. Let me
go to Jim in New York. H Jim, welcome your
first this hour with Vinnie Ernuccio, a labor expert co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Go right ahead, Jim, Hey guys, thanks, Yeah. I just
had a couple of comments. Number one, I mean I
used to be a union member down in New York City.
I live in upstate New York for like the last
thirty seven years, and we had a thing in the
Operating Engineers Construction Union Local I was in that regarded
reducing force. I do HVAC, and automation was already a
(26:11):
big thing then and I still do it, and it's
just gone on steroids on that now where the union
had to acknowledge that, you know, you're not going to
have like the nineteen forties stuff where guys had to
make adjustments manually in real time due to shifting loads.
This could all be all automated, and it was. And
(26:35):
you know, you can run a build a high rise
building in Manhattan now on half the crew. Like when
I was down there, you'd have an eight man crew
and say a forty five story building. That building can
be run on five or four guys now. So I
don't see how this union can resist that juggernaut, you know,
(26:55):
I mean, you're almost like a Luddite, like, you know,
you're not going to like understand that, you know. I
mean it's almost like you know, when the automobile supplic
you know, surpassed or supplanted the horse, you know, I
mean if it's all over the world, which is what
I'm hearing from you guys, and I've read it elsewhere Europe,
you know, all over Asia, the West coast of North America.
(27:21):
I just think it's a matter of time before they
have to accede and say, hey, you know, we gotta
step in line with that. What do you think.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Let's let me get Vinnie's reaction, and then I have
a comment that I want to make. Go ahead, Vinnie. Sure.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I mean, you know, you see the rest of the
world automating. You see the efficiencies, but you also see that,
you know, there's a lot of people being retrained, so
you know it may not be as stark as far
as the job losses go. And I you know, talked
about a couple of those studies that you know came
out of I read those. You know, the AP just
sided those and you know between the University of California
(27:59):
and then some of the other or was the Kaiser
Permanente example. But yeah, I mean, you know, you're going
to get to the point where you can't have people
with clipboards, you know, checking off containers. Things are going
to modernize, and you know.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
That easy pass and I mean, you know the mass Pike.
I mean, I go over to Eastern mass in New
Hampshire main every year, and we were annoyed over here,
like when's the New York State Thruway going to get
in line with the Mass Pike because you guys had
easy pass ahead of us. And then finally they did,
(28:34):
but it was fought because you know, look, I'm not like,
you know, downgrading people, but I mean, you know, we
can't be collecting nickels and quarters at toll boots anymore.
It makes no sense. And they finally did automate the
entire New York State Thruway, so, you know, several years
(28:56):
after the mass Pike. So I see that coming. You know,
with this, you know, it's like West host East Coast.
You guys are gonna maybe you'll get the contract you
want and maybe you'll delay it. But I don't see
it as inevitable, or I see it as inevitable that's
gonna happen at some point in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Okay, here's my question. Let me jump in here, and again,
Vinnie knows more about this than I do, and you
very well may know more about this than I do,
but I believe and I've just learned this from conversations
with friends of mine, that it's a lot easier to
become a long shoreman to get into the union. If
your daddy or uncle was a long shoreman.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Well, that's how I got into the operating engineers or
in the early eighties because of my post.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
So no, no, no. So the point that I'm trying
to make is that unlike let us say, the teachers' unions,
which are very strong in Massachusetts, and the teachers' unions
are sort of fighting for themselves, we have the school
population is decreasing just because the birth rate is decreasing.
(30:01):
Its decreasing, but they want to maintain the jobs. The
long shoremen probably are interested in maintaining the jobs so
that their progeny can come on and clear.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
It these jobs.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Okay, So my point is does that make it? Does
that make it? Here's my question. Agreeing to the to
the premise, does that make it more difficult for the
the owners, the operators, whatever you want to call them,
to convince this union to do something that is inevitable,
maybe because it affects not just them in the short term,
(30:38):
but it affects their kids and their grand their grandsons
or granddaughters now as well maybe and their grandchildren going forward.
They look at this long shoreman's position in some cases
as a family business.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Well that's true. I mean, or is Anny gonna jump in?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
But why don't you answer first and then we'll get
Vinnie go ahead?
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Okay. I remember it was very nepotistic forty five years
ago when I got in like they you know, some
of these unions, and they were mobbed up then. I
don't know that the long shoremen and are now, but
I you know, I'm thinking back on the water.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
If it was a period. There was a period. As
a matter of fact, Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Yes, yes, we were mobbed up and it was like,
you know, I remember one guy wanted to get into
another union. They said you got to have three dead
relatives to get in here. You know, it's just like ridiculous.
And I think that's faded away, but I but back then, yes,
you know, you used to have to have a hook.
They called it a hook.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Okay, so let me get let me get Vinnie in here. Vinnie.
I'm just raising this issue because there's more at stake
for these current the current union members. They're not only
about thinking about their salary this year, their salary next year,
the salary five or ten years from now, but they're
thinking about their kids' salaries. Yeah, thirty five, forty years
from now.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, I mean the main issue here is that there's
zero competition because, like you said, you know, you've got
the West Coast longshoreman, you've got the East Coast long showmen.
They've got the monopoly. So really, if you want to
get into this country, I mean, the less we're going
to start shipping everything to Mexico and then driving it
up there or taking a rail up there. There really
is no other choice. So, you know, aside from the
(32:22):
family ties or the nepotism or the things that we're
talking about, you know, when you look at the way
it's structured and the problems that the law allows it
to have, and the fact that they're under this specific
law versus let's say, a law that applies to the
railroads and airlines, which you know we could talk about
that have different provisions to prevent these type of strikes.
(32:43):
You know, that really is the problem. So you know, yes,
you could look, you know, is there family relationships, are
they're looking to hand down the jobs to you know,
the next generation things like that, but you know, stepping
back and what can actually be done. That's when you
look at all, Right, well, maybe we should reassess this monopoly,
or maybe we should reassess well, the longshoreman h you know,
(33:04):
should be considered the same as let's say those hotel workers,
or because of the stranglehold that they can put on
the economy, they should be considered like the railroad or
the airlines, which are in a special law called the
Railway Act specifically, so they can't put a chokehold on
the economy.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right, you have to you have to find the will
in Congress to change the law. And I don't think
you're going to find that will in Congress at this
point anyway. Gentlemen, heyk King with us here, Vinnie Bernuccio,
and I want to thank Jim in New York. Jim,
have you called me for Is this your first time calling?
Speaker 4 (33:39):
The last time I talked was three years ago, But
I should call more frequently.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, I'd appreciate it because you're a great caller.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Thank you so much, Thank you, Dan, thank you Vinny.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Okay, welcome, thanks for listening to us up in New York.
Over in New York, six four thirty, six thirty. I
got wide open lines here. I think it's a fascinating topic.
Is a labor expert, co founder of the Institute for
the American Worker, Vinnie Ernuccio. Let's keep at it. If
(34:08):
you've got a question, you want to make a comment.
I was hoping here from some long shoremen during this
segment tonight. You're more than welcome to call. We're going
to wrap it at ten o'clock. We got about ten
more minutes left. Feel free to take advantage of it.
We are going to talk about the impact of Hurricane Helene.
We have Massachusetts what's called the Massachusetts Task Force one,
(34:30):
an urban search and rescue team in North Carolina tonight,
and we're going to talk to a member of that
group during next hour. And I'm also going to raise
some questions about does this give you some pause to
decide whether or not you might move to that part
of the country. We get to all of that, but
let's continue to talk about the long Showman's Union. Now.
I know if they had gone on strike and people
(34:51):
had found that they couldn't get something at the stores
that they want, the phone lines would be lit up.
Feel free. You got the numbers coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
My guess is Vinnie Bernuccio. He's the president of the
Institute for the American Worker. Vinnie just getting away from
the longshoreman impass for the moment. Just a quick question,
why is it do you think that unions seem to
be losing, if not control over their membership, at least
losing the direction of their membership. I mean, there was
(35:29):
a time when I was your age, and I'm a
lot older than you are, when you could count that
a union endorsement really had an impact and you knew
that the union leadership was speaking in concert with the
union membership. That seems to me to be less so.
And certainly Donald Trump has made some inroads into the
(35:52):
union base. Witnessed the non endorsements from the IAAF, the
International Association of Firefighters as well as the Teamsters Union
that some other Republicans like Ronny McCain George Bush weren't
able to make. What's going on?
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Oh, I mean, I do think that the union leadership
is out of touch with their membership, and you know,
nothing says that more than you know, the recent Teamsters
example of the non endorsement, yet the you know, almost
sixty percent of the membership that supported Donald Trump. You know,
you're also seeing it just when it comes to politics.
You know, typically a third to forty percent of union
(36:30):
households typically vote Republican. Yet the vast majority you know,
eighty ninety plus percent of union endorsements and union political
money usually goes to Democrats. So there's a political problem there.
But you know, as far as unions in general, even
getting away from politics, and I do think the longshoremen
with their push against automation kind of encapsulates this, is
(36:52):
that unions really are in this industrial revolution one size
fits all adversarial mentality, and the collective bargting business model
is based in the you know, essentially the nineteen thirties
with unskilled workers working in factories. That doesn't translate into
today's modern workforce. You know. In fact, they wrote a
(37:13):
study for the Backetaw Center about how unions can improve
and become like professional service organizations, being unions for the
twenty first century, embracing voluntary unionism, embracing things like merit pay.
So not the only way to get ahead is by
logging another year on the job and embracing flexibility. Unfortunately,
(37:33):
that just hasn't happened. I think that's another reason why
unions just simply aren't. Their membership is not keeping up
with the rest of the economy because they're selling a
product that is outdated and that most modern workers don't want.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Well, the only point I will make here is that
if the International Longshoreman's Association does get this contract sixty
two percent of whatever it is over six years, they're
going to be way ahead of the rest of the
other than maybe NFL and NBA players. They're going to
be on a percentage basis highly compensated. So this union,
(38:10):
and it obviously has some carveouts for it and some exemptions,
some anti trust exemptions, which is very favorable to the union.
Anti trust exemptions in sports back in the nineteen forties
and fifties was favorable to the owners, not to the athletes.
This is now, in my opinion, just the opposite that
(38:33):
the anti trust provision is beneficial to the workers and
maybe tilts the bargaining table a little bit more in
favor of the workers.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Fair analysis or no, it is the only issue is
you know, we're not talking about, you know, the unions
getting monopoly over the workforce at a faculty, which you
know we can debate about. You know, we're talking about
the union having a monopoly on everything coming into the
country on the East coast or in the Gulf. So
(39:05):
you know there's a much orguration here.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah. But again, whether or not you're ever going to
get Congress to allow competing companies inside these ports, well,
I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime.
Maybe it will happen in your lifetime, Vina, thank you
for joining us tonight. Vincent Vernuccio, the president and co
founder of the Institute for the American Worker. Interesting topic
for me. I'm fascinated by this. I know our audience
(39:31):
was listening, but I think you answered their questions and
we'd like to keep in touch with you. You're a great guest.
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And by the way, you can put this up on
your website. All you have to do sometime tomorrow is
go to Nightside on demand dot com and you can
pull that down from our podcast page, which Rob will
be happy to give you that information if you want
to hold on and you can circulate it amongst the
supporters of your organizations. So stay there and Rob will
(40:01):
give you the information more quickly. When we get back,
we're going to talk about this incredible hurricane. More than
two hundred and twenty people at this point are confirmed dead,
and that number still is going to rise in the
next few weeks. We'll be talking with a member of
the Massachusetts Task Force one, an urban search and rescue
team on the ground in North Carolina. After the ten
(40:21):
o'clock news
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.