October 25, 2024 • 38 mins
A bar and grille in Providence, RI is being sued by ASCAP for allowing a couple of songs to be performed during one of their karaoke nights without the “proper license needed for those musical selections to be legally performed in public.” Fish Co. is not the only establishment this has happened to this year…a Woburn bar faced a similar lawsuit for playing John Denver’s “Take Me Home…Country Roads” without paying royalties. Jackson Wagener, ASCAP SVP of Business and Legal Affairs and songwriter Robert Ellis Orrall joined us to discuss!
Both Fish Co. & ASCAP have been invited to join the conversation. Fish Co. did not respond to our request
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
Both Fish Co. & ASCAP have been invited to join the conversation. Fish Co. did not respond to our request
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Or one of those nights here on w b Z.
Kind of a little bit of craziness there in the
last half hour. Sorry about that. We had a guest
who was supposed to call in at a certain time
on the issue of booster seats for kids and cars,
which would have been good information, but that person dropped
the ball, and my producers and I tried to make
(00:29):
make do with as best we could. It's unfortunate that
people who you line up from major companies by the
way to help them out and talk about information that
is a value to my listeners aren't focused enough to
be available or to call in when they're supposed to
(00:51):
call in, and then you can't find them. So I
will apologize on behalf of that guest. I guarantee you
that guest will never be invited to be on Night
Side again. It's the only way we can respond to that.
Now we have we have two guests. As I mentioned
in the last hour, we're going to learn about a
lot about as cap fees, UH and UH. With this
(01:13):
lawsuit that has been filed against I guess not only
a club in Providence, Rhode Island, but a few others.
So we have we have two guests lined up. We
invited the owner of the club in question in Providence,
Rhode Island. Again, I'm referring to a pieces in the
Boston Globe on I believe it was on Tuesday out
of Providence, Rhode Island. The bar or whatever you want
(01:35):
to call it, Fish Company on Bridge Street in Providence,
Rhode Islands facing a copyright infringement lawsuit because three songs
were performed during karaoke there in May with us are
two guests. One is Jackson Wagoner. Jackson, I hope pronouncing
your name correctly. He is the as CAP Senior Vice
(01:56):
President of Business and Legal Affairs. I appreciate you being
available on a Friday night. And a songwriter. I believe
he's local. Robert ellis oral Robert. Welcome. Are you from
the great of Boston and the New England area.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I grew up here and after spending about a thirty
years stint in Nashville, I'm back.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, Well, welcome back, welcome back to platedly. Okay, So
let's start off with the attorney Jackson Wagner, and I
think I've explained to the audience. You probably didn't listen,
but in the ten minutes before the nine o'clock news
we talked about, you know, ASCAP functions under a nineteen
(02:35):
seventy six copyright law. Why don't you, Jackson, describe to
us from the ASCAP point of view, why this law
is necessary to protect the interest of writers and composers
and musicians.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Great, sure, Ann, thanks for having me on. I appreciate
the time. So to start with, I think it's important
to understand what as CAP is and what we do.
So as CAP is actually a membership membership association. We
represent the rights of more than one million music creators.
(03:17):
Our members are songwriters, composers, lyricists, and music publishers. They
publish music across and write music across every conceivable genre
of music and so on. Behalf of those members as
CAP goes out and we license the right to publicly
perform their music, and we license that right to all
(03:37):
sorts of businesses that use music, you know, sort of
for more traditional music use companies like commercial radio, local
television you know, cable and broadcast TV, to the sort
of the newer generation of music companies, you know, music
streaming services like Spotify, Apple and the like and audio
(03:59):
visual companies like Hulu and Netflix, and of course as
well to live music venues, and so we license the
rights to those companies on behalf of our members. So
in essence, as CAAP focuses on the business side so
that our members who are songwriters can focus on the
(04:19):
creative side, continue to focus on their craft and write
the music that we all know and love. ASCAP's also
unique because we operate on a not for profit basis,
and what that actually means is that we're really good
and really efficient at getting money into the hands of
our members. In fact, about ninety cents of every dollar
that we collect is distributed to our members as royalties.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So Sycha mentioned that how much does ASCALP collect them?
Just curry us overall? It must be a multi million
dollar effort. What do you think of all the venues
that utilize music? Is it one hundred million dollars a year?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Ye oh, it's more than that, Yes, it's it's close
to a billion in half. I think it's above that.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's so it's a lot, it's yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Okay, you rightfully point out there there are you know,
many music users across the country, and really music use
is ubiquitous, right, you see it everywhere nowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sure, Uh, you know, and when you when you license folks.
And again you said that you're a nonprofit, and I
understand that you're you're a membership association which is intended
to benefit its members. I understand that totally. I'm assuming that,
for example, you must have a different level of cost.
(05:38):
I assume you're not charging CBS or or NBC or
ABC major television networks the same that you would be
charging this club in profitence Rhode Island. I mean, I
don't need to know how much they're they're going to
be charged, but I assume that it's it's dependent upon
how reliant, how reliant and an individual or an institution
(06:03):
is on music, that there's a correlation between that reliance
and the amount that they have to pay.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
That's absolutely correct. And the reality is, you know, we
want businesses, you know, all sorts of different businesses to
use our members music, sure, and we want them to
be successful when they do that. We just want to
ensure that fair compensation is then paid to the music creators.
And one of the ways we ensure that is by having,
like you said, licenses that really are suited to the
(06:31):
needs of the business, to their size, to their use
of music, and to ensure that licenses as are affordable.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So so again without I'm not trying to, you know,
pick information that that I have no right to. So somehow,
some way, you folks almost like the I r S.
Every year, the i r S will indict people in
February and March from different backgrounds to let people know
(07:02):
that hey, it's time to do your taxes and do
them honestly. So as I understand this global article that
you guys participated in, and you've been quoted in Jackson,
you're suing about nine business establishments around the country which
might be characterized as smaller venues. You recently filed a
lawsuit against some sort of a bar in Wooburn, Massachusetts,
(07:27):
which is close to where we are, and now you
have one in Providence, Rhode Island. But these are people who, obviously,
I assume, I'm very recalcitrate that you went to them
in a reasonable fashion, said hey would like you to
would like to license you so you can play music,
And it appears to me that they have are not
particularly interested in participating. And now you filed federal lawsuits
(07:51):
against these establishments across the country. Is that accurate, right, Dan?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So you are correct, essentially, you know, the reality is
that we view litigation as a last resort and so
you're absolutely right that these you know, establishments that were
sued last week are retelcitrant. And really what I mean
by that is, you know, we we really make repeated
(08:18):
efforts to license venues, especially in this space, right before
we resort to a federal lawsuit, and and you know,
we reach out in various ways over the course of
usually a year or more, and usually you know, there
are dozens of contacts or attempts to contact the establishment owners.
And through those contacts, we emphasize to the you know,
(08:40):
part of its educational Dan, right, we we want to
explain who we are, we explain what we do. We
explain to the licensees that the the royalties at ASCAP
generates on behalf of its members are are incredibly important
to the music creators, right. And that's because for for
many songwriters, you know, the royalties that they earn from
(09:04):
ASKAP are actually their primary source of income.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
It's it's how they put food on the table, it's
how they pay rent. Right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
If it's okay, I just need to take a quick
break here. When we get back, I want to talk
about that a little bit, because I assume that a
lot of the singers or or musicians or performers whatever
you want to call, whose songs are being utilized, whether
it's you know, John Denver you know song or a
(09:35):
Garth Brooks song here, that those are the ones that
are most popular. And I'll be interested as to whether
you I assume you can keep track of what every
little venue does, and I'm just interested in how the
benefit is apportioned. And then we'll take some phone calls
if it's okay. And I also want to hear from
(09:58):
our other guest, who is who's a songwriter, Robert Ellis
orrel about his reliance on this. You've explained that very
well so far, Jackson, and I so appreciate you coming
on tonight because I would be flying blind without both
of you. I wish that the owner of the club
had been willing to come on, but he was invited,
and we didn't speak with him personally, but he certainly
(10:20):
has has had an invitation. He chose not to participate.
We'll take a quick break and we're going to be back,
and we're going to learn a lot about when you
go to a bar, you go to a restaurant. In
this music playing in the background, there's a cost associated
with that, and we'll explain. We'll continue to explain why
my name's Dan Ray and this is night Side. If
you'd like to join the conversation, If you're a musician
(10:40):
or someone out there who benefits from this, feel free
to call in six one seven, two, five, four to
ten thirty. If you're a bar owner, you feel it's onerous,
you feel you're free to call in, Or if you're
just a listener and want to offer your opinion, you
are always free to call in six one, seven, two,
five four to ten thirty and six one seven, nine
three one ten thirty Back on nights Side. Fascinating subject
(11:03):
topic as far as I'm concerned, Legal implications and allotted
stake cumulatively. Will be back right after this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
All right, we're talking with Jackson Wagner. He is the
senior vice president of business in Legal Affairs for an
organization called ASCAP, which is the American Society of Composers,
authors and publishers. That is a group that basically ensures
that when music is played at a commercial location in America,
that there is a license under a nineteen seventy six
(11:43):
copyright law that is the law of the land. So
it's almost fifty years old, and apparently some of the
smaller venues around the country are not as cooperative. I mean,
I look at this as a big pyramid that at
the top of the pyramid at the major networks and
the Spotify and the things that really rely upon music obviously,
(12:05):
and then down the bottom you have maybe some smaller locations, bars, etc.
Who probably think that they can avoid it. From the
point of view of the performers, how important is this
to you, Robert Ellis, or you're a songwriter. I don't
know how many big hits you've had. You may have
had twenty big hits, but whether or not your songs
(12:28):
are being played at karaoke bars, how important is that
the principle is upheld and people like yourself have access
to the royalties that come from the work you've done.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well, sure you know everything everything in our in my
family's life, our house are closed, our food, everything for
the last thirty five years has been paid for by royalties.
And part of that is because I've been lucky enough
to have a lot of songs that do end up
in the public space, whether on the radio or in
(13:05):
concerts or or as something as simple as a karaoke night.
Every dollar that is that is that brought in from
some the playing of those songs that make people happy
and they enjoy listening to. You know, Uh, there's no
way that there's no way for us to know who's
(13:27):
playing what where, But as Gap is an organization that
I belonged to Newsons nineteen eighty one, the same year
I sign with r c A Records, and uh knew that,
you know, chan's a pretty good that I was gonna
start having some songs in the radio as a performer,
but then went on to move to Nashville and write
(13:48):
songs for a lot of people that people listen to.
And I've had about three hundred and fifty songs recorded, so,
you know, and sort of non genre specific, everyone from
uh Reva McIntyre to Lindsey Lowhand, movies like you know, Hannah, Montana,
(14:10):
Danity whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Okay, so let me let me ask you this. Robert
if I could. Okay, obviously there's some songs that are universal.
I mean, you know, Sweet Caroline. I'm sure he has
played at every karaoke bar in America at some point
y m c A. I'm sure those are the songs
that I assume you find it karaoke bars. Do you
(14:35):
get paid royalties? I mean, does ASCAP actually track how
where your song is played? Do you get a report
every month? And does the estate of John Denver get
a report as to how often you know Rocky Mountain
High has been played? Or does everyone It's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Not that specific. I mean it's like, obviously I'm not
gonna get a report about who played what in what
are but and and as to the way the formula
works for for ASCAP to distribute, it is a very
very complicated formula. But what they but when the when
the money comes from radio stations, television stations, theaters, clubs, stadiums,
(15:18):
uh and it's always you know, it's it's it's it's
worked out as a percentage of you know, of what
of what the money coming into those businesses.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Are in what I'm trying to what I'm trying, I'm
trying to simplify it Robert from my audience, And if
I'm asking an oversimplified question, I'm assuming that just as
there's a pyramid of the at the top of the
pyramid of the networks and the big music providers, and
towards the bottom of the pyramid is the karaoke songs.
(15:49):
If someone wrote one song that actually was produced somewhere
and released, does that person get Does everybody get the
same amount of money as you know? Or does Stevie
wonder and people who have had music that has been
on forever do they get more? How does it just?
How does it work? In other words, you've got a
million members, does everybody get an equivalent cut? Or do
(16:13):
they do you get put in the category and say, well,
these these folks, you know, major artists are going to
get they'll they'll they'll cut, they'll cut up twenty percent.
How does it work?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
No, No, it's really based on the percentage your your
how much your songs are getting played versus anyone else.
So if if there's a if there's a television state,
say CBS in one year has fifteen, it's h This
is really hard to explain because it's based on a
(16:45):
mathematical formula where It has nothing to do with popularity,
It has nothing to do with if you've been in
the business for a long time, you get more money.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So I assume it has to do with usage. I'm
going to save you some time here. It probably has
to do with usage.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Actual usage.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, actual usage. So you might have written a theme
song that nobody would know that you wrote it, but
it's it's the theme song for I don't know, you know,
pick the most popular TV show these days, for Dancing
with the Stars or whatever the most So, so it's
based upon usage. And let me come back to Jackson. Jackson,
(17:25):
I assume that you folks have some idea about what
music is being played, and so you try to do
it as fairly as equitably as you can.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And that's absolutely right. And to be clear, we actually
have a core principle that we try to abide by
in making distributions to our member to our members, we
call it follow the dollar. And what follow the dollar
means is that the money that comes in from any
licensee or a particular class of licensees gets distributed to
(17:56):
the musicians, to the songwriters and the music creator whose
music is played on that medium. So a perfect example
is commercial radio. Right, money comes in from commercial radio
stations across the country, and as cap UH spends uh,
you know, significant time and resources in tracking performances. I'm
(18:19):
literally it's trillions with a t trillions of performances per
year that we track across various media. So in commercial radio,
for instance, you know, we get detailed data from radio
stations about what's being played. We you know, we we
we tie that back to the money that comes in
from radio, and then we distributed to the members whose
music is being performed, you know, in accordance with the
(18:41):
number of performances. So the more you know, uh, if
your music is played, more you're getting paid, you know more.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
I got it, Okay, So let me ask you. Let
me ask you this question. Then I'm assuming that the
the big corporations, you know, whether it's again, you know, CBS, ABC, NBC,
or I work at an iHeart radio station. We don't
play music, but we're news, news and talk radio station.
But I'm sure you have a deal with with iHeart
(19:07):
that covers all the radio stations you're not negotiating a
deal with. We have eight hundred iHeart radio stations around
the country. So I'm assuming that you use some efficiencies
when you're dealing with a radio network.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Correct, Oh, absolutely, I mean that's okay. One of the
value propositions you know of.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
A caps invented so and it's a negotiation and you
come to an agreement and you sign a contract for
a year or three years whatever. It is. Rough percentage
when you talk about karaoke restaurants like this place in Providence,
Rhode Island, or the place that you suit in Wouburn,
give me a rough idea about what percentage of the
(19:46):
overall income you say you have overall income about a
billion and a half. I only got thirty seconds and
we've got to go to a network news break. So
within twenty seconds, what are these small little you know, millions,
hundreds of thousands of clubs. Do they represent a huge percentage?
Speaker 4 (20:04):
It's a meaningful it's absolutely it's a meaningful percentage. I
think it's in the neighborhood of two hundred million.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Let me tell you this, because I got to go
to CBS. We'll come back, We'll get to phone calls.
We have a special report coming in because of the
hostilities in the Middle East. Tonight we're going to join CBS.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
News It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
My guest the Jackson Wagner. He is a senior vice
president of business and legal Affairs with ASCAP. ASCAP is
the American Society composers, authors and publishers. It's essentially the
music industry and with us. Also, you were hearing from
songwriter Robert Ellis Orrell, who is one of the beneficiaries
(20:51):
of this. Gentlemen, I'd like to go to phone calls.
I think that we have described the situation and the circumstances.
Is there anything that either one of you feel compelled
to add before we get the phone calls?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, I'd just like to say this because it does
seem like, Oh.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I just want to make sure I have the right
this is this.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Is Robert, go ahead, right. I had this conversation. One
of my best friends owned the best bar in Nantucket.
My band would play there when we signed with RCA.
We'll be down in woodshed there and he would tell
me all these guys from ASCAP and BMI that come
around and bothered me, and I'm like, let me bothering you. Well,
(21:35):
you know, they want they want me to pay every
year it's about two dollars a day so that you
can have the music in the club, which is the
reason why people are going to the club. So when
someone's at a karaoke bar singing Taylor Swifts Crazier or
I'm Only Me when I'm with You, or a Place
in this World or Invisible, you.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Don't need to go through Taylor Swift's playlist. Robert, most
of us know.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Those songs. I chose those songs specifically because I wrote
those songs with her. So the reason they're on that
karaoke stage singing karaoke to that song is because we
sat down in a room one day and wrote it,
and that is our source of bigcom No.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I understand that. Now. Of course, a lot of people
going to say, well, Taylor Swift doesn't need any more money.
Maybe Robert does. But Taylor Swift has more money than
she can count right now. So I think we might
get some reaction that every card. But but we understand
we again, sorry, yes, go ahead, Jackson.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
But sorry. I wanted to follow up on that because
I think it's important for people to understand that. You know, look,
askaf absolutely has some very well known musicians and songwriters
and performers, and you know, the people that you've all
heard of, but there's also a significant class of songwriter
member at ASKAF that you know. They're not touring, they're
(23:01):
not selling merchandise, they're really professional songwriters. And those songwriters
they write music for other people to perform and and
for those songwriters in particular, the royalties they earn from
ASCAP and from the public performance of their music are
absolutely crucial and oftentimes it is their primary, uh if
not sole, source.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Of income, my primary, my entire career.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I totally understand what both of you are saying,
but I also think that some people want they might say, well,
maybe Taylor Swift should give a little more money to
Robert when he writes a song for that's all. I mean,
you know, let's you know, she could aboard it. Let's
let's go to phone.
Speaker 6 (23:41):
Call under Robert.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, my fair share that's fifty. So I'm good.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
All right, let's go to Roger. Roger, appreciate your patience
holding on here, but I wanted to make sure my
audience understood the situation.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Hey, actually, dan is Roger from Medford. If you remember
back in the day, and I'm talking to the pandemic.
I live in wo I live in Melrose now I'm.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
On okay, Roger from Medford.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
I'm now in Melrose.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Rogers ahead, Roger, Okay.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Good evening, Dan and Jackson and Robert. I hear both
of all sides of it. I'm attached to this also,
Dan on the side in the background. I'm involved with music.
My friend's got Grammys. Okay. I'm a member of the
Flavor Year of Queen Latifa's camp. And my buddy gets
paid every time they play nine hundred number let Me
Clean your Throat in the NBA Arenas and in the
(24:38):
NFL and everything. And he is just a beat producer, Okay.
So when they play a song in Kansaity Sclos a touchdown,
he gets a little bit of money. Mass Caf now, Jackson,
I go back to ASCAF. One of my dear friends
lobbied Congress for you guys ten of fifteen years ago.
His names Adrian Ross, and he was there and I
(24:58):
heard about when you guys finally came out with the
software that helps guys like Robert where he can actually
see where his music has been played. When you guys
would reached that software. So Dan just to go back
in the days, he had a jukebox in a bar.
They had to pay to have a jukebox there. No
one complained, they paid the money, the money went to
the artist and the record being played in a jukebox.
(25:20):
Fast forward fifty years, the exact same concept. So he's
playing karaoke. So either a, if he is the karaoke
bar and providing the karaoke, he has to pay the thick.
If he's hiring somebody from outside to bring the karaoke in,
they have to pay the thick. And if you're only
talk at two dollars a day, I don't feel sorry
at all with the bar owners.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Sorry, that's my okay, Well, that's fine, that's fine. I'm
just telling you that. You know, our friend Robert was
telling me that there's a bar owner Don in Nantucket
who felt a little bit put out by all of that.
So I, you know, I understand this, decides to all
of this. We were doing this too, to get it
out there and explain to the people so that they'll
(26:02):
better understand it.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
And I'll just leave it on this note. Dan, I'll
let you guys go ahead. You're running a bar, You're
getting people in the door and you're making money. Be
happy they're coming in. They're coming in because you're playing
the music.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Thank you, that's.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Fine, thank you very much. Obviously Roger has a strong
feeling about that. Six one seven, two thirty eight nine
to nine, ten thirty. Also six one seven, nine three
ten thirty. Let me go to Michael and Attleborough. Hey Michael,
how are you tonight?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Hey?
Speaker 7 (26:33):
Great?
Speaker 5 (26:33):
How you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Dan?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And you are with Jackson Wagner of as Gap and
songwriter Robert Ellis orl.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Right, I got a different angle as a disc jockey
and the columns we never paid. And you know, I'm
not admitting you know, fault, but you're playing in a
club one night and one the other night. There was
a night where somebody was mad at the owner of
the club by work, and he contacted ASCAP and I
(27:04):
said that I like Yellow Submarine, which I'm wasbably going
to play in a million years. But I agree with this.
And by the way, to the ASCAP people that I
forgot the names, I apologized, or you could have never
walked in a Providence bot thirty years ago and asked
but anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Okay, well that's a parenthetical comment. We'll leave it thirty
years ago, the problems of guys walking in the bar
who were from the organization, and we're asking them whether
or not they needed plate glass window insurance.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
But the other thing is this is a little bit.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
More of a legitimate request. Let me make that very
analogizing what as gap is doing. Hold on, let me
just finish my sentence. If you don't mind, I'm not
analogizing what as gap is doing to what the industry
that you alluded to was doing many many years ago.
This is understand that. Go ahead, what's your what's your question?
Speaker 5 (28:06):
The thing that gets me is the sampling of songs
that people are doing and getting away with that rips
me ten time sideways, especially since the quotes is sat
and agree with the and it's letting some of that
go through. But I agree that we should be paying.
There's no there's no question. Even though I got away
(28:26):
with this, there's no question that the artists should be paid.
And I had one last question for Askap, what about.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
When the people in the.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
In the restaurants play a public radio station with the
songs and the commercials. I think you frown upon that, right, So.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
This is Jackson. So that's a little bit of a
nuanced issue. There are exemptions in the law or smaller
venues if they're just simply playing the radio. Right, it's
really based on you know, certain small venues that have
a limited number of speakers and TVs. It's it's an
(29:07):
exemption that doesn't apply to most establishments and certainly not
to any of the establishments that you know, we that
we are you know, attempting to license and then we're
sued last week.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Right, Okay, thanks, thank.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
You, Michael, thank you very much. Thanks, thanks you for
the call. All right, let me ask real quickly, Jackson.
We got to take quick break and then we get
some more calls coming in. The question that I have
is and be straight with me on this one. You've
been very straight so far. I assume that it's it's
probably not worth as CAPS resources to file lawsuits against
(29:48):
a thousand or ten thousand small bars that are doing
the same thing that this group in Rhode Island you
believe they're doing. Fish Company. So in a sense, you're
doing this to send a message that you guys are
going to be aggressive irrespective of the size of the establishment. Uh,
and this hopefully will induce people who own small bars
(30:12):
across the country and are playing music, particularly in karaoke form,
to to basically come into the bar and pay that
small amount of money every year so that you don't
end up in a lawsuit. Pretty pretty obvious to me
as a lawyer. Uh, and you're a lawyer as well.
I think that's what the purpose is. You've you've identified
(30:34):
a few of the most calciledorn bars and you're going
after them, and hopefully other people will be aware of it,
and maybe they will decide that discretion is the better
part of our correct.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
So you know, it's it's certainly educational, right, It's it's
educational for the industry. But look, we also take very seriously,
you know, not not just did the our responsibility to
generate royalties for members, but also to protect their valuable
copyrights and and that's part of you know, it's another
function that's served by these losses.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But what I'm saying is, and I just you know,
I'm not trying to put you on the spot here,
I'm just saying it's it's more efficient to Again, I
guess there's a spate of about nine of these that
have been filed across the country is that correct?
Speaker 4 (31:22):
I think last week there were eleven and.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
You know how many?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
How many? How big is the class of offenders? Do
you think here? How many? It was obviously ABC, NBC, CBS,
the big boys, they're they're on board. So how many
of vinced locations such as Fish Company in Providence, Rhode
Island and the place in woolbron What do you estimate?
Are there half a million?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I think well, I mean, you know the number of
bars and vans across the country. I actually don't. It'd
be very difficult to come up with the number. But
but I think the reality is the majority of these
bar owners and another nightclubs and folkspering music in that
in that sense, yeah, because there's a value right to
the music and that's what brings the customer.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I get it. But there must be sufficient liars, There
must be a sufficient number of outliers to make it
worth it. You you know, if if if this, if
this club in this bar in Providence is not paying
it's two dollars a day, that's what you know, seven
hundred and fifty dollars a year, and they and they'd
(32:34):
be right with you, guys.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I got the question,
but absolutely our preferences to handle these issues through.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Life, I said, no. My question, My question is real simple.
These are these are cases that you hope that by
the publicity that you're getting that it will induce others
to say it's not worth the aggravation. Uh, and that
you know it's you know, you can't sue every one
of these restaurants around the country. That would cost that
(33:07):
would run, you'd run out of money, you'd run out
of staff, I mean, and you can't really do a
class action lawsuit here. So this is an effective way
to get the message out to these smaller club owners
who maybe are not with the program, to get with
the program. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Yeah, we're certainly hopeful that you know this, that you know,
people will do the right thing and come to get
a license.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think we're saying the right I think we're saying
the same thing. We'll be right back and finish up
our interview with my guest Jackson Wagner and ask have
senior vice president of business and Legal Affairs and Robert
Ellis orl who's a songwriter. Didn't realize that he'd written
some songs for Taylor Swift. We'll be back on Nightside.
We got Mark coming up and Paul be right back
on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
We're talking about musical ties with Jackson Wegner, the ASCAP
Senior vice president of Business and Legal Affairs, and Robert
Ellis ORL, a songwriter. I had two callers and I
got about four minutes, so I'm going to give each
two minutes. Let's go to Mark and Movement first. Mark
got to be a quick question or quick comment.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Go right ahead, Mark, Yeah, Hi this.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
I know I've met Ralph a few times. I just
wanted to say that, as a songwriter myself, that not
paying for the these this usage is like stealing a
couple of bottles from your alcohol distributor.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
All right, fine, yeah, so you do you have a question?
You have a question? Would that be the comment?
Speaker 7 (34:43):
No, the comment is quite simple. You know you're not
going to steal a case of beer from your distributor
every you know, every delivery. It's the same difference. It's
it's theft of services. I would put it. You know,
these people performed the service they they they wrote the songs,
and you know that, you know that's how I equate it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So well, you're a song with on that I would
assume that that's exactly how you view it. And I
appreciate you calling in and you were quick and to
the point, which was very appreciative. And I'm going to
be able to get Paul from Plymouth in as well. Mark,
Thanks very much. What have you written recently? Anything we
should be listening to on the radio.
Speaker 7 (35:21):
Hopefully now? Unfortunately a song called the Chokes on Me
is and Tempest in a Teapotter on my SoundCloud, but
nothing that has made it be on college radio.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
All right, Well that's okay, you're doing it and you'll
have that breakthrough. I'm sure. I appreciate you call, Mark,
and thank you for listening tonight's side.
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Thank you, Billy, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We go to Paul and Plymouth. Paul got about two
minutes for you. You go right ahead. Question or comment for
Jackson Wagner or Robert ls or good.
Speaker 8 (35:51):
Evening, gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I just have a just have a comment. I wanted
to get up this off my chest.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
A great music was in the nineteen thirties and the
nineteenth forties a big band era, and then it just
started getting cheaper and smaller and cheaper and smaller. And
it's all related to this, to what we have today,
where you know, you've got one person up there singing
with a guitar. And I don't even go out to
(36:22):
these places anymore because it's so damn boring. You know,
I'd much rather go watch a big band like Glenn
Miller or something. Anyways, I just want to.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Get if we get if we could just get Glenn
Miller back, I think the world would be would be
a better place, Paul. If you know, Yogi Berra said,
no wonder nobody comes here. It's too crowded. There's a
lot of these places that are doing very well, Paul
with I'm doing my radio show when you're not going.
So get those big bands back, and if we get
(36:54):
Louis Armstrong will be in better shape, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
That's right, that's right, hopefully.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Well, thank you, Paul. I appreciate it that great time. Okay, Okay,
no comment necessary, gentleman. I don't think he was insulting
your work or anything.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
But no, no, I like that.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Thank you both for joining us. Tonight. I wish that
the club owner had participated as well, but that was
his choice. I assumed that he did get our invitation,
and I'd appreciate it, Jackson. If you keep us in
you know, keep us in the loop here, and if
if the filing of the lawsuit accomplishes the purpose and
(37:38):
the club in Providence decides to get right with you guys,
let us know it. I'd love to follow up on
these stories that we do so. I think you guys
represented yourself very well. It's an interesting story. I learned
a lot about ask Captainnight and I want to thank
you both for being here. Okay, next time, see Taylor Swift, Robert,
do me a favorite, tell her that my is a
(38:00):
big fan of hers. And I think she's going to
be a success in the music industry. Okay, I think.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
She's Okay, all right, I'm good to talk to you.
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Dan certainly appreciate the time. Dan, thank you so much,
both of.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You, Jackson Wagner and Robert Ellis orl. Thanks. We get
back on to talk with a master a bibliophile, Ken
Gloss of Brattle Street Bookshop, Brattle Bookshop. I should say
we're going to talk about a couple of big book
events coming up in Boston, and then at eleven o'clock
our twenty twenty four final Friday of the month, our
(38:37):
eighth final Friday of the month presidential poll. You can
tell us who you're going to vote for, or who
you would vote for if it was The vote was today.
Back on night Side after this
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Or one of those nights here on w b Z.
Kind of a little bit of craziness there in the
last half hour. Sorry about that. We had a guest
who was supposed to call in at a certain time
on the issue of booster seats for kids and cars,
which would have been good information, but that person dropped
the ball, and my producers and I tried to make
(00:29):
make do with as best we could. It's unfortunate that
people who you line up from major companies by the
way to help them out and talk about information that
is a value to my listeners aren't focused enough to
be available or to call in when they're supposed to
(00:51):
call in, and then you can't find them. So I
will apologize on behalf of that guest. I guarantee you
that guest will never be invited to be on Night
Side again. It's the only way we can respond to that.
Now we have we have two guests. As I mentioned
in the last hour, we're going to learn about a
lot about as cap fees, UH and UH. With this
(01:13):
lawsuit that has been filed against I guess not only
a club in Providence, Rhode Island, but a few others.
So we have we have two guests lined up. We
invited the owner of the club in question in Providence,
Rhode Island. Again, I'm referring to a pieces in the
Boston Globe on I believe it was on Tuesday out
of Providence, Rhode Island. The bar or whatever you want
(01:35):
to call it, Fish Company on Bridge Street in Providence,
Rhode Islands facing a copyright infringement lawsuit because three songs
were performed during karaoke there in May with us are
two guests. One is Jackson Wagoner. Jackson, I hope pronouncing
your name correctly. He is the as CAP Senior Vice
(01:56):
President of Business and Legal Affairs. I appreciate you being
available on a Friday night. And a songwriter. I believe
he's local. Robert ellis oral Robert. Welcome. Are you from
the great of Boston and the New England area.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I grew up here and after spending about a thirty
years stint in Nashville, I'm back.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, Well, welcome back, welcome back to platedly. Okay, So
let's start off with the attorney Jackson Wagner, and I
think I've explained to the audience. You probably didn't listen,
but in the ten minutes before the nine o'clock news
we talked about, you know, ASCAP functions under a nineteen
(02:35):
seventy six copyright law. Why don't you, Jackson, describe to
us from the ASCAP point of view, why this law
is necessary to protect the interest of writers and composers
and musicians.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Great, sure, Ann, thanks for having me on. I appreciate
the time. So to start with, I think it's important
to understand what as CAP is and what we do.
So as CAP is actually a membership membership association. We
represent the rights of more than one million music creators.
(03:17):
Our members are songwriters, composers, lyricists, and music publishers. They
publish music across and write music across every conceivable genre
of music and so on. Behalf of those members as
CAP goes out and we license the right to publicly
perform their music, and we license that right to all
(03:37):
sorts of businesses that use music, you know, sort of
for more traditional music use companies like commercial radio, local
television you know, cable and broadcast TV, to the sort
of the newer generation of music companies, you know, music
streaming services like Spotify, Apple and the like and audio
(03:59):
visual companies like Hulu and Netflix, and of course as
well to live music venues, and so we license the
rights to those companies on behalf of our members. So
in essence, as CAAP focuses on the business side so
that our members who are songwriters can focus on the
(04:19):
creative side, continue to focus on their craft and write
the music that we all know and love. ASCAP's also
unique because we operate on a not for profit basis,
and what that actually means is that we're really good
and really efficient at getting money into the hands of
our members. In fact, about ninety cents of every dollar
that we collect is distributed to our members as royalties.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So Sycha mentioned that how much does ASCALP collect them?
Just curry us overall? It must be a multi million
dollar effort. What do you think of all the venues
that utilize music? Is it one hundred million dollars a year?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Ye oh, it's more than that, Yes, it's it's close
to a billion in half. I think it's above that.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It's so it's a lot, it's yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Okay, you rightfully point out there there are you know,
many music users across the country, and really music use
is ubiquitous, right, you see it everywhere nowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sure, Uh, you know, and when you when you license folks.
And again you said that you're a nonprofit, and I
understand that you're you're a membership association which is intended
to benefit its members. I understand that totally. I'm assuming that,
for example, you must have a different level of cost.
(05:38):
I assume you're not charging CBS or or NBC or
ABC major television networks the same that you would be
charging this club in profitence Rhode Island. I mean, I
don't need to know how much they're they're going to
be charged, but I assume that it's it's dependent upon
how reliant, how reliant and an individual or an institution
(06:03):
is on music, that there's a correlation between that reliance
and the amount that they have to pay.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
That's absolutely correct. And the reality is, you know, we
want businesses, you know, all sorts of different businesses to
use our members music, sure, and we want them to
be successful when they do that. We just want to
ensure that fair compensation is then paid to the music creators.
And one of the ways we ensure that is by having,
like you said, licenses that really are suited to the
(06:31):
needs of the business, to their size, to their use
of music, and to ensure that licenses as are affordable.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So so again without I'm not trying to, you know,
pick information that that I have no right to. So somehow,
some way, you folks almost like the I r S.
Every year, the i r S will indict people in
February and March from different backgrounds to let people know
(07:02):
that hey, it's time to do your taxes and do
them honestly. So as I understand this global article that
you guys participated in, and you've been quoted in Jackson,
you're suing about nine business establishments around the country which
might be characterized as smaller venues. You recently filed a
lawsuit against some sort of a bar in Wooburn, Massachusetts,
(07:27):
which is close to where we are, and now you
have one in Providence, Rhode Island. But these are people who, obviously,
I assume, I'm very recalcitrate that you went to them
in a reasonable fashion, said hey would like you to
would like to license you so you can play music,
And it appears to me that they have are not
particularly interested in participating. And now you filed federal lawsuits
(07:51):
against these establishments across the country. Is that accurate, right, Dan?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So you are correct, essentially, you know, the reality is
that we view litigation as a last resort and so
you're absolutely right that these you know, establishments that were
sued last week are retelcitrant. And really what I mean
by that is, you know, we we really make repeated
(08:18):
efforts to license venues, especially in this space, right before
we resort to a federal lawsuit, and and you know,
we reach out in various ways over the course of
usually a year or more, and usually you know, there
are dozens of contacts or attempts to contact the establishment owners.
And through those contacts, we emphasize to the you know,
(08:40):
part of its educational Dan, right, we we want to
explain who we are, we explain what we do. We
explain to the licensees that the the royalties at ASCAP
generates on behalf of its members are are incredibly important
to the music creators, right. And that's because for for
many songwriters, you know, the royalties that they earn from
(09:04):
ASKAP are actually their primary source of income.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
It's it's how they put food on the table, it's
how they pay rent. Right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
If it's okay, I just need to take a quick
break here. When we get back, I want to talk
about that a little bit, because I assume that a
lot of the singers or or musicians or performers whatever
you want to call, whose songs are being utilized, whether
it's you know, John Denver you know song or a
(09:35):
Garth Brooks song here, that those are the ones that
are most popular. And I'll be interested as to whether
you I assume you can keep track of what every
little venue does, and I'm just interested in how the
benefit is apportioned. And then we'll take some phone calls
if it's okay. And I also want to hear from
(09:58):
our other guest, who is who's a songwriter, Robert Ellis
orrel about his reliance on this. You've explained that very
well so far, Jackson, and I so appreciate you coming
on tonight because I would be flying blind without both
of you. I wish that the owner of the club
had been willing to come on, but he was invited,
and we didn't speak with him personally, but he certainly
(10:20):
has has had an invitation. He chose not to participate.
We'll take a quick break and we're going to be back,
and we're going to learn a lot about when you
go to a bar, you go to a restaurant. In
this music playing in the background, there's a cost associated
with that, and we'll explain. We'll continue to explain why
my name's Dan Ray and this is night Side. If
you'd like to join the conversation, If you're a musician
(10:40):
or someone out there who benefits from this, feel free
to call in six one seven, two, five, four to
ten thirty. If you're a bar owner, you feel it's onerous,
you feel you're free to call in, Or if you're
just a listener and want to offer your opinion, you
are always free to call in six one, seven, two,
five four to ten thirty and six one seven, nine
three one ten thirty Back on nights Side. Fascinating subject
(11:03):
topic as far as I'm concerned, Legal implications and allotted
stake cumulatively. Will be back right after this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
All right, we're talking with Jackson Wagner. He is the
senior vice president of business in Legal Affairs for an
organization called ASCAP, which is the American Society of Composers,
authors and publishers. That is a group that basically ensures
that when music is played at a commercial location in America,
that there is a license under a nineteen seventy six
(11:43):
copyright law that is the law of the land. So
it's almost fifty years old, and apparently some of the
smaller venues around the country are not as cooperative. I mean,
I look at this as a big pyramid that at
the top of the pyramid at the major networks and
the Spotify and the things that really rely upon music obviously,
(12:05):
and then down the bottom you have maybe some smaller locations, bars, etc.
Who probably think that they can avoid it. From the
point of view of the performers, how important is this
to you, Robert Ellis, or you're a songwriter. I don't
know how many big hits you've had. You may have
had twenty big hits, but whether or not your songs
(12:28):
are being played at karaoke bars, how important is that
the principle is upheld and people like yourself have access
to the royalties that come from the work you've done.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well, sure you know everything everything in our in my
family's life, our house are closed, our food, everything for
the last thirty five years has been paid for by royalties.
And part of that is because I've been lucky enough
to have a lot of songs that do end up
in the public space, whether on the radio or in
(13:05):
concerts or or as something as simple as a karaoke night.
Every dollar that is that is that brought in from
some the playing of those songs that make people happy
and they enjoy listening to. You know, Uh, there's no
way that there's no way for us to know who's
(13:27):
playing what where, But as Gap is an organization that
I belonged to Newsons nineteen eighty one, the same year
I sign with r c A Records, and uh knew that,
you know, chan's a pretty good that I was gonna
start having some songs in the radio as a performer,
but then went on to move to Nashville and write
(13:48):
songs for a lot of people that people listen to.
And I've had about three hundred and fifty songs recorded, so,
you know, and sort of non genre specific, everyone from
uh Reva McIntyre to Lindsey Lowhand, movies like you know, Hannah, Montana,
(14:10):
Danity whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Okay, so let me let me ask you this. Robert
if I could. Okay, obviously there's some songs that are universal.
I mean, you know, Sweet Caroline. I'm sure he has
played at every karaoke bar in America at some point
y m c A. I'm sure those are the songs
that I assume you find it karaoke bars. Do you
(14:35):
get paid royalties? I mean, does ASCAP actually track how
where your song is played? Do you get a report
every month? And does the estate of John Denver get
a report as to how often you know Rocky Mountain
High has been played? Or does everyone It's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Not that specific. I mean it's like, obviously I'm not
gonna get a report about who played what in what
are but and and as to the way the formula
works for for ASCAP to distribute, it is a very
very complicated formula. But what they but when the when
the money comes from radio stations, television stations, theaters, clubs, stadiums,
(15:18):
uh and it's always you know, it's it's it's it's
worked out as a percentage of you know, of what
of what the money coming into those businesses.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Are in what I'm trying to what I'm trying, I'm
trying to simplify it Robert from my audience, And if
I'm asking an oversimplified question, I'm assuming that just as
there's a pyramid of the at the top of the
pyramid of the networks and the big music providers, and
towards the bottom of the pyramid is the karaoke songs.
(15:49):
If someone wrote one song that actually was produced somewhere
and released, does that person get Does everybody get the
same amount of money as you know? Or does Stevie
wonder and people who have had music that has been
on forever do they get more? How does it just?
How does it work? In other words, you've got a
million members, does everybody get an equivalent cut? Or do
(16:13):
they do you get put in the category and say, well,
these these folks, you know, major artists are going to
get they'll they'll they'll cut, they'll cut up twenty percent.
How does it work?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
No, No, it's really based on the percentage your your
how much your songs are getting played versus anyone else.
So if if there's a if there's a television state,
say CBS in one year has fifteen, it's h This
is really hard to explain because it's based on a
(16:45):
mathematical formula where It has nothing to do with popularity,
It has nothing to do with if you've been in
the business for a long time, you get more money.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So I assume it has to do with usage. I'm
going to save you some time here. It probably has
to do with usage.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Actual usage.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, actual usage. So you might have written a theme
song that nobody would know that you wrote it, but
it's it's the theme song for I don't know, you know,
pick the most popular TV show these days, for Dancing
with the Stars or whatever the most So, so it's
based upon usage. And let me come back to Jackson. Jackson,
(17:25):
I assume that you folks have some idea about what
music is being played, and so you try to do
it as fairly as equitably as you can.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And that's absolutely right. And to be clear, we actually
have a core principle that we try to abide by
in making distributions to our member to our members, we
call it follow the dollar. And what follow the dollar
means is that the money that comes in from any
licensee or a particular class of licensees gets distributed to
(17:56):
the musicians, to the songwriters and the music creator whose
music is played on that medium. So a perfect example
is commercial radio. Right, money comes in from commercial radio
stations across the country, and as cap UH spends uh,
you know, significant time and resources in tracking performances. I'm
(18:19):
literally it's trillions with a t trillions of performances per
year that we track across various media. So in commercial radio,
for instance, you know, we get detailed data from radio
stations about what's being played. We you know, we we
we tie that back to the money that comes in
from radio, and then we distributed to the members whose
music is being performed, you know, in accordance with the
(18:41):
number of performances. So the more you know, uh, if
your music is played, more you're getting paid, you know more.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
I got it, Okay, So let me ask you. Let
me ask you this question. Then I'm assuming that the
the big corporations, you know, whether it's again, you know, CBS, ABC, NBC,
or I work at an iHeart radio station. We don't
play music, but we're news, news and talk radio station.
But I'm sure you have a deal with with iHeart
(19:07):
that covers all the radio stations you're not negotiating a
deal with. We have eight hundred iHeart radio stations around
the country. So I'm assuming that you use some efficiencies
when you're dealing with a radio network.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Correct, Oh, absolutely, I mean that's okay. One of the
value propositions you know of.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
A caps invented so and it's a negotiation and you
come to an agreement and you sign a contract for
a year or three years whatever. It is. Rough percentage
when you talk about karaoke restaurants like this place in Providence,
Rhode Island, or the place that you suit in Wouburn,
give me a rough idea about what percentage of the
(19:46):
overall income you say you have overall income about a
billion and a half. I only got thirty seconds and
we've got to go to a network news break. So
within twenty seconds, what are these small little you know, millions,
hundreds of thousands of clubs. Do they represent a huge percentage?
Speaker 4 (20:04):
It's a meaningful it's absolutely it's a meaningful percentage. I
think it's in the neighborhood of two hundred million.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Let me tell you this, because I got to go
to CBS. We'll come back, We'll get to phone calls.
We have a special report coming in because of the
hostilities in the Middle East. Tonight we're going to join CBS.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
News It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
My guest the Jackson Wagner. He is a senior vice
president of business and legal Affairs with ASCAP. ASCAP is
the American Society composers, authors and publishers. It's essentially the
music industry and with us. Also, you were hearing from
songwriter Robert Ellis Orrell, who is one of the beneficiaries
(20:51):
of this. Gentlemen, I'd like to go to phone calls.
I think that we have described the situation and the circumstances.
Is there anything that either one of you feel compelled
to add before we get the phone calls?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, I'd just like to say this because it does
seem like, Oh.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I just want to make sure I have the right
this is this.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Is Robert, go ahead, right. I had this conversation. One
of my best friends owned the best bar in Nantucket.
My band would play there when we signed with RCA.
We'll be down in woodshed there and he would tell
me all these guys from ASCAP and BMI that come
around and bothered me, and I'm like, let me bothering you. Well,
(21:35):
you know, they want they want me to pay every
year it's about two dollars a day so that you
can have the music in the club, which is the
reason why people are going to the club. So when
someone's at a karaoke bar singing Taylor Swifts Crazier or
I'm Only Me when I'm with You, or a Place
in this World or Invisible, you.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Don't need to go through Taylor Swift's playlist. Robert, most
of us know.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Those songs. I chose those songs specifically because I wrote
those songs with her. So the reason they're on that
karaoke stage singing karaoke to that song is because we
sat down in a room one day and wrote it,
and that is our source of bigcom No.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I understand that. Now. Of course, a lot of people
going to say, well, Taylor Swift doesn't need any more money.
Maybe Robert does. But Taylor Swift has more money than
she can count right now. So I think we might
get some reaction that every card. But but we understand
we again, sorry, yes, go ahead, Jackson.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
But sorry. I wanted to follow up on that because
I think it's important for people to understand that. You know, look,
askaf absolutely has some very well known musicians and songwriters
and performers, and you know, the people that you've all
heard of, but there's also a significant class of songwriter
member at ASKAF that you know. They're not touring, they're
(23:01):
not selling merchandise, they're really professional songwriters. And those songwriters
they write music for other people to perform and and
for those songwriters in particular, the royalties they earn from
ASCAP and from the public performance of their music are
absolutely crucial and oftentimes it is their primary, uh if
not sole, source.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Of income, my primary, my entire career.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I totally understand what both of you are saying,
but I also think that some people want they might say, well,
maybe Taylor Swift should give a little more money to
Robert when he writes a song for that's all. I mean,
you know, let's you know, she could aboard it. Let's
let's go to phone.
Speaker 6 (23:41):
Call under Robert.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, my fair share that's fifty. So I'm good.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
All right, let's go to Roger. Roger, appreciate your patience
holding on here, but I wanted to make sure my
audience understood the situation.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Hey, actually, dan is Roger from Medford. If you remember
back in the day, and I'm talking to the pandemic.
I live in wo I live in Melrose now I'm.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
On okay, Roger from Medford.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
I'm now in Melrose.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Rogers ahead, Roger, Okay.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Good evening, Dan and Jackson and Robert. I hear both
of all sides of it. I'm attached to this also,
Dan on the side in the background. I'm involved with music.
My friend's got Grammys. Okay. I'm a member of the
Flavor Year of Queen Latifa's camp. And my buddy gets
paid every time they play nine hundred number let Me
Clean your Throat in the NBA Arenas and in the
(24:38):
NFL and everything. And he is just a beat producer, Okay.
So when they play a song in Kansaity Sclos a touchdown,
he gets a little bit of money. Mass Caf now, Jackson,
I go back to ASCAF. One of my dear friends
lobbied Congress for you guys ten of fifteen years ago.
His names Adrian Ross, and he was there and I
(24:58):
heard about when you guys finally came out with the
software that helps guys like Robert where he can actually
see where his music has been played. When you guys
would reached that software. So Dan just to go back
in the days, he had a jukebox in a bar.
They had to pay to have a jukebox there. No
one complained, they paid the money, the money went to
the artist and the record being played in a jukebox.
(25:20):
Fast forward fifty years, the exact same concept. So he's
playing karaoke. So either a, if he is the karaoke
bar and providing the karaoke, he has to pay the thick.
If he's hiring somebody from outside to bring the karaoke in,
they have to pay the thick. And if you're only
talk at two dollars a day, I don't feel sorry
at all with the bar owners.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Sorry, that's my okay, Well, that's fine, that's fine. I'm
just telling you that. You know, our friend Robert was
telling me that there's a bar owner Don in Nantucket
who felt a little bit put out by all of that.
So I, you know, I understand this, decides to all
of this. We were doing this too, to get it
out there and explain to the people so that they'll
(26:02):
better understand it.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
And I'll just leave it on this note. Dan, I'll
let you guys go ahead. You're running a bar, You're
getting people in the door and you're making money. Be
happy they're coming in. They're coming in because you're playing
the music.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Thank you, that's.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Fine, thank you very much. Obviously Roger has a strong
feeling about that. Six one seven, two thirty eight nine
to nine, ten thirty. Also six one seven, nine three
ten thirty. Let me go to Michael and Attleborough. Hey Michael,
how are you tonight?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Hey?
Speaker 7 (26:33):
Great?
Speaker 5 (26:33):
How you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Dan?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And you are with Jackson Wagner of as Gap and
songwriter Robert Ellis orl.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Right, I got a different angle as a disc jockey
and the columns we never paid. And you know, I'm
not admitting you know, fault, but you're playing in a
club one night and one the other night. There was
a night where somebody was mad at the owner of
the club by work, and he contacted ASCAP and I
(27:04):
said that I like Yellow Submarine, which I'm wasbably going
to play in a million years. But I agree with this.
And by the way, to the ASCAP people that I
forgot the names, I apologized, or you could have never
walked in a Providence bot thirty years ago and asked
but anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Okay, well that's a parenthetical comment. We'll leave it thirty
years ago, the problems of guys walking in the bar
who were from the organization, and we're asking them whether
or not they needed plate glass window insurance.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
But the other thing is this is a little bit.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
More of a legitimate request. Let me make that very
analogizing what as gap is doing. Hold on, let me
just finish my sentence. If you don't mind, I'm not
analogizing what as gap is doing to what the industry
that you alluded to was doing many many years ago.
This is understand that. Go ahead, what's your what's your question?
Speaker 5 (28:06):
The thing that gets me is the sampling of songs
that people are doing and getting away with that rips
me ten time sideways, especially since the quotes is sat
and agree with the and it's letting some of that
go through. But I agree that we should be paying.
There's no there's no question. Even though I got away
(28:26):
with this, there's no question that the artists should be paid.
And I had one last question for Askap, what about.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
When the people in the.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
In the restaurants play a public radio station with the
songs and the commercials. I think you frown upon that, right, So.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
This is Jackson. So that's a little bit of a
nuanced issue. There are exemptions in the law or smaller
venues if they're just simply playing the radio. Right, it's
really based on you know, certain small venues that have
a limited number of speakers and TVs. It's it's an
(29:07):
exemption that doesn't apply to most establishments and certainly not
to any of the establishments that you know, we that
we are you know, attempting to license and then we're
sued last week.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Right, Okay, thanks, thank.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
You, Michael, thank you very much. Thanks, thanks you for
the call. All right, let me ask real quickly, Jackson.
We got to take quick break and then we get
some more calls coming in. The question that I have
is and be straight with me on this one. You've
been very straight so far. I assume that it's it's
probably not worth as CAPS resources to file lawsuits against
(29:48):
a thousand or ten thousand small bars that are doing
the same thing that this group in Rhode Island you
believe they're doing. Fish Company. So in a sense, you're
doing this to send a message that you guys are
going to be aggressive irrespective of the size of the establishment. Uh,
and this hopefully will induce people who own small bars
(30:12):
across the country and are playing music, particularly in karaoke form,
to to basically come into the bar and pay that
small amount of money every year so that you don't
end up in a lawsuit. Pretty pretty obvious to me
as a lawyer. Uh, and you're a lawyer as well.
I think that's what the purpose is. You've you've identified
(30:34):
a few of the most calciledorn bars and you're going
after them, and hopefully other people will be aware of it,
and maybe they will decide that discretion is the better
part of our correct.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
So you know, it's it's certainly educational, right, It's it's
educational for the industry. But look, we also take very seriously,
you know, not not just did the our responsibility to
generate royalties for members, but also to protect their valuable
copyrights and and that's part of you know, it's another
function that's served by these losses.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But what I'm saying is, and I just you know,
I'm not trying to put you on the spot here,
I'm just saying it's it's more efficient to Again, I
guess there's a spate of about nine of these that
have been filed across the country is that correct?
Speaker 4 (31:22):
I think last week there were eleven and.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
You know how many?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
How many? How big is the class of offenders? Do
you think here? How many? It was obviously ABC, NBC, CBS,
the big boys, they're they're on board. So how many
of vinced locations such as Fish Company in Providence, Rhode
Island and the place in woolbron What do you estimate?
Are there half a million?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I think well, I mean, you know the number of
bars and vans across the country. I actually don't. It'd
be very difficult to come up with the number. But
but I think the reality is the majority of these
bar owners and another nightclubs and folkspering music in that
in that sense, yeah, because there's a value right to
the music and that's what brings the customer.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I get it. But there must be sufficient liars, There
must be a sufficient number of outliers to make it
worth it. You you know, if if if this, if
this club in this bar in Providence is not paying
it's two dollars a day, that's what you know, seven
hundred and fifty dollars a year, and they and they'd
(32:34):
be right with you, guys.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I got the question,
but absolutely our preferences to handle these issues through.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Life, I said, no. My question, My question is real simple.
These are these are cases that you hope that by
the publicity that you're getting that it will induce others
to say it's not worth the aggravation. Uh, and that
you know it's you know, you can't sue every one
of these restaurants around the country. That would cost that
(33:07):
would run, you'd run out of money, you'd run out
of staff, I mean, and you can't really do a
class action lawsuit here. So this is an effective way
to get the message out to these smaller club owners
who maybe are not with the program, to get with
the program. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Yeah, we're certainly hopeful that you know this, that you know,
people will do the right thing and come to get
a license.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think we're saying the right I think we're saying
the same thing. We'll be right back and finish up
our interview with my guest Jackson Wagner and ask have
senior vice president of business and Legal Affairs and Robert
Ellis orl who's a songwriter. Didn't realize that he'd written
some songs for Taylor Swift. We'll be back on Nightside.
We got Mark coming up and Paul be right back
on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
We're talking about musical ties with Jackson Wegner, the ASCAP
Senior vice president of Business and Legal Affairs, and Robert
Ellis ORL, a songwriter. I had two callers and I
got about four minutes, so I'm going to give each
two minutes. Let's go to Mark and Movement first. Mark
got to be a quick question or quick comment.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Go right ahead, Mark, Yeah, Hi this.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
I know I've met Ralph a few times. I just
wanted to say that, as a songwriter myself, that not
paying for the these this usage is like stealing a
couple of bottles from your alcohol distributor.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
All right, fine, yeah, so you do you have a question?
You have a question? Would that be the comment?
Speaker 7 (34:43):
No, the comment is quite simple. You know you're not
going to steal a case of beer from your distributor
every you know, every delivery. It's the same difference. It's
it's theft of services. I would put it. You know,
these people performed the service they they they wrote the songs,
and you know that, you know that's how I equate it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So well, you're a song with on that I would
assume that that's exactly how you view it. And I
appreciate you calling in and you were quick and to
the point, which was very appreciative. And I'm going to
be able to get Paul from Plymouth in as well. Mark,
Thanks very much. What have you written recently? Anything we
should be listening to on the radio.
Speaker 7 (35:21):
Hopefully now? Unfortunately a song called the Chokes on Me
is and Tempest in a Teapotter on my SoundCloud, but
nothing that has made it be on college radio.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
All right, Well that's okay, you're doing it and you'll
have that breakthrough. I'm sure. I appreciate you call, Mark,
and thank you for listening tonight's side.
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Thank you, Billy, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We go to Paul and Plymouth. Paul got about two
minutes for you. You go right ahead. Question or comment for
Jackson Wagner or Robert ls or good.
Speaker 8 (35:51):
Evening, gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I just have a just have a comment. I wanted
to get up this off my chest.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
A great music was in the nineteen thirties and the
nineteenth forties a big band era, and then it just
started getting cheaper and smaller and cheaper and smaller. And
it's all related to this, to what we have today,
where you know, you've got one person up there singing
with a guitar. And I don't even go out to
(36:22):
these places anymore because it's so damn boring. You know,
I'd much rather go watch a big band like Glenn
Miller or something. Anyways, I just want to.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Get if we get if we could just get Glenn
Miller back, I think the world would be would be
a better place, Paul. If you know, Yogi Berra said,
no wonder nobody comes here. It's too crowded. There's a
lot of these places that are doing very well, Paul
with I'm doing my radio show when you're not going.
So get those big bands back, and if we get
(36:54):
Louis Armstrong will be in better shape, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
That's right, that's right, hopefully.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Well, thank you, Paul. I appreciate it that great time. Okay, Okay,
no comment necessary, gentleman. I don't think he was insulting
your work or anything.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
But no, no, I like that.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Thank you both for joining us. Tonight. I wish that
the club owner had participated as well, but that was
his choice. I assumed that he did get our invitation,
and I'd appreciate it, Jackson. If you keep us in
you know, keep us in the loop here, and if
if the filing of the lawsuit accomplishes the purpose and
(37:38):
the club in Providence decides to get right with you guys,
let us know it. I'd love to follow up on
these stories that we do so. I think you guys
represented yourself very well. It's an interesting story. I learned
a lot about ask Captainnight and I want to thank
you both for being here. Okay, next time, see Taylor Swift, Robert,
do me a favorite, tell her that my is a
(38:00):
big fan of hers. And I think she's going to
be a success in the music industry. Okay, I think.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
She's Okay, all right, I'm good to talk to you.
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Dan certainly appreciate the time. Dan, thank you so much,
both of.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You, Jackson Wagner and Robert Ellis orl. Thanks. We get
back on to talk with a master a bibliophile, Ken
Gloss of Brattle Street Bookshop, Brattle Bookshop. I should say
we're going to talk about a couple of big book
events coming up in Boston, and then at eleven o'clock
our twenty twenty four final Friday of the month, our
(38:37):
eighth final Friday of the month presidential poll. You can
tell us who you're going to vote for, or who
you would vote for if it was The vote was today.
Back on night Side after this
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