October 31, 2024 • 55 mins
This weekend, the first Sunday in November we turn our clocks back an hour and gain that extra hour of sleep! However, can changing that one hour affect our health and disturb our sleeping patterns? Do you feel the effects of Daylight-Saving Time? Do you think we should eliminate DST? Dr. Charles Czeisler, Chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham & Women’s Hospital and director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School joined Dan to discuss!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Who's radio.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray I WBZ Koston's Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Well, this Sunday, I think everyone knows. We're going to
have our clocks go back theoretically at two AM on
Sunday morning, which means Son is going to be dropping
below the horizon a little earlier. Next week. It'll be
dark around four thirty beginning next Sunday Sunday evening. We're
(00:28):
going to be talking in just a moment, doctor Charles Eisler.
He's the chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian
Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital, also the director of
the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. But
before we do that, it's going to take a moment
and invite people to start calling now at six, one, seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty, And if you happen to be calling number ten,
(00:49):
you're going to win two tickets to see Celtic Thunder
at the Premier Theater at Foxwoods on November seventh. Set
off on a musical journey with the Irish music sensations.
Celtic Thunder Live Complete the show, Complete show info and
tickets are available at Foxwoods dot com. Now we have
(01:09):
given away three pairs of tickets already, will give away
a pair of tickets tonight, as I have said each night,
if you know you're gonna go and you will even
use them, great, but please don't take them and not
use them. And we'll have one more peer tomorrow night.
And what's gonna happen is that Dan the producer is
simply going to answer the line pretty quickly. Call a one,
call a two, call a four, call a six, caller seven,
(01:30):
and if you're lucky, caller number ten. This you don't
have to give your identification until he says caller ten,
and hang right on the line six one, seven, nine, three,
one ten thirty tenth caller, we'll win two tickets to
see Celtic Thunder at the Premier Theater at Foxwoods on
November seventh, a week from tonight, set off on a
musical journey with the Irish music sensations Celtic Thunder Live.
(01:51):
Complete show info and tickets available at Foxwoods dot com.
Now while Dan takes care of that and finds caller
number ten for us, we just got call and number ten,
so we have a winter tonight. You can stop calling.
We have our call and number ten we're gonna go
to call and number one this hour, doctor Charles Seisler,
(02:12):
Doctor Sisler, Welcome to Night's Side. How are you, sir?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Fine? How are you Dan?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm doing just great now. You you have to have
a big business card because you're in the chair of
the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham and
Women's Hospital and also director of the Division of Sleep
Medicine at Harvard Medical School. I always get confused. I
assume that in the summertime we're Daylight Savings time, and
(02:37):
then in the winter it's Eastern Standard Time, or do
I have it backwards?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
You absolutely correct. Yeah, You've got it correct.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Okay, that's great. So we're going to have a big event.
Actually it's it's a theoretical event. People will go to
bed whenever they want on Saturday night or Sunday, and
we get an extra hour sleep. Everybody remembers fall back,
spring forward or spring forward fall back, whichever. But this
still was a lot of controversy about this because I
(03:11):
guess a lot of people are impacted by this. Is
it the circadian rhythms that we all have within ourselves
that is most impacted, that that's the cause of concern.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Here that is the cause of concern, and in fact,
the impact is greatest in the spring, when we lose
an hour of sleep and try to shift our circadian
rhythms to an earlier hour. And that acute change in
the spring is associated with all sorts of problems, including
(03:45):
an increased risk of heart attacks and increased risk in
motor vehicle crashes. Now in the fall, when we go
back to the more reasonable time zone, the standard time
(04:06):
let we actually our heart attacks decrease in the week
following uh and when we get that extra sleep. But yes,
you know where I stand uh and, And it is
because even being on the western edge of a time zone,
which brings you closer to the sort of situation that
(04:29):
we'd be in if we were continuous daylight saving time,
that actually is associated with increased risk of many diseases, cancer,
heart disease, diabetes, and other chronic diseases, many of which
are associated with the combination of disruption of our circadian
(04:52):
flocks and also sleep deficiency.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Okay, so we have a lot to go over here.
First of all, you mentioned we're.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
In the East East time zone Eastern stand we will
be in the Eastern Standard time zone, and everybody knows
we have what three time zones, well, eastern Central Mountain
four time zones in the continental United States, and I
guess that's part of Alaska and Hawaii that are in
other other time zones. But when it hits noontime here
(05:24):
in Boston, it's generally nine o'clock out in Los Angeles,
and those of us who spend any time on the
West Coast, it's a very different feel to the day,
particularly on Sunday when we're watching football games at nine
o'clock in the morning and you're used to watching the
Patriots at noontime or one o'clock.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And so let's talk about the whole concept of circadian rhythms.
Can you put that in language that most of us
non scientists can understand, right, So.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
I'll try to avoid geek line whiche. But we have
an internal clock in the brain that is kind of
the conductor of an orchestra of clocks throughout the body.
And so this central clock receives light input through our
(06:19):
eyes that keeps us in sync with the twenty four
our day when we're exposed to light during the daytime
and darkness at night, and that internal clock controls the
timing of the release of hormones, the timing of daily
variations and alertness and performance. And it sustains our ability
(06:44):
to function well during the daytime and to sleep at night.
It also regulates our digestion, our ability to process food,
and our ability to breathe. Our heart, our cardiac system
is regulated by it. Our kidneys are regulated by it.
(07:06):
So all these different systems in each organ. More than
half of the genes in that organ are regulated by
the circadian clock. And it's a different set of genes
in each organ because it's organ specific as to what's
important to have that organ function well. Now, when those
(07:28):
clocks are screwed up, and they get screwed up by
exposure light at night and insufficient exposure to light during
the day. And there was just a paper that came
out today as a matter of fact, in the proceedings
of the National Academy of Sciences showing that the risk
(07:48):
of cardio metabolic diseases, diseases of the heart, and diseases
like diabetes and so on, as well as premature death
are greatly increased. And we're talking about my more than
fifty percent by exposure excessive exposure to light at night
or insufficient exposure to light during the daytime, and also
(08:14):
by being exposed to light that shifts are circading rhythms
to a later or too much of an earlier hour.
So in order to optimize our health, it's best to
get exposure to light during the daytime and sleep in
(08:37):
the dark at night. I mean. The great thing is
these are easily modifiable risk factors and not much was
known about them previously. So you know, people can get
if they're you know, if they can't have shades or whatever,
if there's light coming in from the outside, you can
(08:59):
get ice, shave eyemasks to at night, and you know,
go out and take a walk during the daytime and
that will all help keep your Cicadian rooms in sync. Okay,
let me take a break because sleepy.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I just need to take a quick commercial break. I
want to hold the thought then we get back. I
want to I don't want to challenge you, that's for sure,
but I want to challenge the idea of because when
you think about it, the amount of sunlight that we
receive is going to be the same in a twenty
(09:38):
four hour cycle, whether we're in daylight savings time or
Eastern Standard time. There is that one day where we
get a little an hour's extra sleep, and then there's
the one day in the spring where we lose an
hour's worth of sleep. But I'm really interested because you're
teaching me a lot here and hopefully a lot of
people are listening and learning a lot too. I know
(10:01):
that that we have body clocks, but I never understood
as because you explained them so well that there's a
bunch of different body clocks for each organ and they
and they interrelate. So I want to get to that.
But I want to come back and talk about the
amount of daylight per day because it really doesn't change,
(10:23):
you know, except for those two days on the end
of the cycle. We'll get back to all of that
if you want to talk with doctor Zeisler. And again,
there are a lot of you out there I know
who are impacted at this time of year by there's
a certain disorder when when we lose daylight during the daytime,
and it affects different people differently. Feel free to join
(10:44):
our conversation. UH six one seven two ten thirty six
one seven nine ten thirty back with doctor Charles Zeisler.
He's the chair of the Division of Sleep in Circadian
Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital, also the Director of
Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ the News Radio.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My guest is doctor Charles Zizzler. Zizler, Chair of the
Division of Sleeping Circadian Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital,
Director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
Doctor Zeesler, let me pose this question, and this is
going to sound like a really simplistic question, but it's
one that I have thought about, and that is the
(11:33):
amount of daylight that we receive here in the Northern
Hemisphere and in the Boston area doesn't really change. It
just it's we have more daylight in the morning and
less in the afternoon, So the amount of daylight doesn't change.
The number of hours of light diminishes all the way
(11:56):
up until about December twentieth, and then it starts to
fill up that during the summer months, we have daylight
from five o'clock in the morning until eight thirty at night,
and we're talking about fifteen and a half hours of
daylight and conversely, in the wintertime we have probably fifteen
hours or so of darkness. Why does this make such
(12:18):
an impact over the time of day we take in
that sunlight? I assume it has something to do with
our habits of sleeping and working nine to five am.
I right or wrong on that?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
You are right, Dan, And that's the very student observation
that you're making. And so to really understand why the
timing of that light is important, it's critical to realize
that we are internal clocks have a cycle length that
(13:01):
is not exactly twenty four hours, and they have to
be reset every day. Most people, three out of four people,
the cycle length is longer than twenty four hours. And
it can be and it can be, you know, half
an hour longer, quarter of an hour longer. It's everybody,
(13:23):
and it's determined by our genetics, and it's slightly different
than every person. But in three quarters of people, it's
longer than twenty four hours, and that means that morning
light exposure is most important for resetting our internal biological clock,
our brain's circadian clock. And the problem with permanent daylight
(13:46):
savings time is that in Boston, out of three hundred
and sixty five days a year. Let's say you have
to get up at six o'clock in the morning in
order to start work or school at seven That means
you'd be waking up in the dark on two hundred
(14:08):
and thirty nine of those three hundred and sixty five
days per year, So the vast majority of the days
you would be in the dark. And even at seven am,
when you'd be starting school or work and have already
taken the bus to get there, driven the car to
(14:30):
get there, done whatever, you would still be in the
dark at seven am on one hundred and forty eight
days of the three hundred and sixty five days. And
that's because you know, we call it daylight savings time.
But you know, Congress can do a lot of things.
But just as you point out, they can't protect sunshine.
(14:54):
The number of hours at sunshine is set by you know,
geological actors. So they're not saving sunshine. They're just moving us.
They're moving us to a different time zone. And daylight
(15:14):
saving time is actually mid Atlantic time. Yes, so what
it would be doing would be taking California and putting
California on mountain time year round, taking Colorado and putting
Colorado on Central Standard time year around, taking Chicago and
putting it on Eastern Standard time year round, and taking
(15:37):
Boston and putting us on mid Atlantic time, so it
would require us to wake up an hour earlier every
day relative to the solar day. And that's why every
time this has been tried, the Russians tried it abandoned
(15:59):
after three We tried it in the United States in
the seventies during the you know, when there was a crisis, right,
and we tried it during World War Two because there was.
And every time it's been tried it has been rejected
(16:19):
because you know, when you're going for two hundred and
thirty nine days a year waking up in the dark
and starting school or work one hundred and fifty days
a year in the dark, people are like, who did
this to us? What are you doing? Who thought this
was a good idea?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, you know, it's interesting if I could just pick
up a couple of points you talked about the Russians. Russia,
if I'm not mistaken, has actually about ten or eleven
time zone. It's the widest country in the world to
the east of Lavostok. So I don't know what if
their experience is exactly contiguous to watch. Obviously we have
(17:00):
Hawaii and.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Well they went to the whole the whole shebang went
to permanent daylight saving time.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah they oh, they went that way.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Okay, right, they went that way. They did you know
what what Rubio calls the Sunshine Protection Act. Okay, and
it didn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere that it's been tried,
because when people you know, it's kind of odd that
we do daylight saving time in the summer because if
they're already the sun, you know, is setting way later.
(17:29):
And even when I was a kid, I was wonder,
you know, okay, the sun's going down at seven thirty,
and now we're going to make it go down at
eight thirty.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So why we I always thought that it had to
do with Here's what I thought it had to do
with it. I thought that the push in the spring
was so that kids little league in soccer games could
go a little bit later, because obviously we don't hit
our peak, you know, our latest sunset is it until
sometime in late June. But with you know, soccer program
(18:00):
and getting kids out to exercise after school, and then
I know that Farmers had had a big influence in
this because yeah, they were getting up in the dark,
and I forget how they took what position they took,
but I thought that the farm belt had, yeah, a
bigger influence.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
All these things are myths because the farmers don't really
like I mean, their animals don't change. Okay, But it's
really the golf industry that is pushing because they you know,
they calculate how many more tea times they could get in.
(18:42):
It's a nineteen billion dollar industry in the United States,
so they're always trying to push to have, you know,
the the number of hours after five PM where somebody
might be able to run through a round of golf.
Oh gotcha, even if it's even if it means that
the sun doesn't set till nine thirty.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So when I was talking about spring soccer in Little League,
it's really the golfers or the driving pardon the punt,
the driving factor here. Uh, we got to take a
quick break. I got some calls on the other side
who I'm sure would love to talk with you. Would
you be willing to take a couple of calls on
the other side of the I I'd love to Okay, great, Uh,
(19:25):
it's he really explains this well. Doctor Charles Zizler, chair
of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham
and bring him in Women's Hospital here in Boston and
director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
We are going to get to phone calls, Harvey and
Kevin and if you'd like to talk with doctor Zeesler
(19:46):
six six one seven, we'll trying to get a few
of you in here. Uh and ought. It isn't often
you get to talk to someone who has this depth
of experience in this subject. If you have an interest
in it. We are coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's
news Radio.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Joined delighted to be joined by doctor Charles Ziesler. He's
the chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders
at Brigham and Women's Hospital, director the Division of Sleep
Medicine and Harvard Medical School. We're talking about the big
chains that will take place, as it does every fall,
when we leave daylight Savings time and go back to
Eastern Standard time, when we all will get an extra
hour of sleep this Saturday night Sunday morning, which sounds great,
(20:35):
but doctor seesel was explaining there's a lot of subsequent
impact here which is not necessarily healthy for our circadian
rhythms and by extension, healthy for us. Doctor seesel let's
get some phone calls. If that's okay with you, let's go.
We'll start off in Cambridge. Harvey is in Cambridge. Harvey, welcome,
You are first up this hour and nightside welcome, sir.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
Yeah, this is a not the usual kind of topic
I would call in on, but I.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Want to identify yourself so that people know who this is. Harvey.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
I'm a civil liberties and clinical defense lawyer and author
who lives in Cambridge and has a libertarian political tendencies.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
At and a great and a dear friend, Harvey Silverglade
and Harvey, I owe you a phone call and a
matter we won't discuss, but I hope you're doing well.
You sound great. You're on with the doctor Zasler, go
right ahead.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
My question is this My understanding is that it would
take a vote of Congress to abolish the switching from
daylight savings to Eastern standard. They're all kinds of lobbyists
to lobby for, you know, everything from money for local
roads to god knows what why is it so difficult
(21:53):
to get Congress to vote to abolish this? It's a
wartime and aquarism, as I understand it, And why is
it so difficult to get Congress to do something about this?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, unfortunately, Attorney Silvergate, the Congress is trying to do
the opposite. They're actually trying to force all Americans to
wake up an hour earlier throughout the year by pushing
all of our time zones eastward by one hour. That
would the estimates that that would increase cancers by one
(22:32):
hundred thousand cases per year, including five percent increase in
breast cancer cases and a fifteen to thirty percent increase
in uterine cancer, liver cancer, and some types of leukemia. So,
but the golf lobby is really, you know, spending fortune
to try to get and they actually a couple of
(22:54):
years ago, on a voice vote, the Senate passed unanimously
to to push us all one time zone eastward, but
unfortunately the House decided to have hearings on it and
did not pass it. But again it's been introduced again
this year, So the golf lobbing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So, just so I understand what's in play here, The
golf lobby would be pushing for that, and they are
able to get it through the Senate on a voicevode.
And if it hadn't been for the House, we would
all be on Eastern we'd all be on daylight savings
time throughout the.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Year permanently, so that we would be essentially on mid
Atlantic time because we'd be moved one time, we'd be
on the extreme western edge of the time zone, which
is the part of the time zone that is associated
with the increased health risk. Right now, we're on the
eastern side of the time zone of the Eastern time zone,
(23:52):
so we're in a much safer place right now.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
What causes the increase in cancer incidence of cancer? I'm
trying to figure what what is the correlation there. Obviously
it has to do something on the sleep pattern, right.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Well, it has to do with our with the abnormal
timing of exposure light. So our internal clock depends on
morning light to be reset, and and when we're going
to school and driving work in the dark, and then
we're inside offices and not exposed to outdoor light, our
internal clock drifts to a later hour. It making it
(24:32):
harder to get up, harder to fall asleep. We're exposed
to a lot of artificial light that suppresses the release
of the hormone melatonin, which is a hormone that uh
that that stops the spread of cancer. So yeah, so
it's it's a it's a that's the leading mechanism. So
(24:54):
night shift work, for example, the World Health Organization has
labeled a probable car synogen because of the exposure to
light that night shift workers, you know, that they're to
which they're exposed.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So this would mean and Harvey jump in here if
you like that. This would seem to mean to me
that centuries ago, centuries ago, when people were living without
reference to any sort of artificial clock corrections, that they
probably were not they maybe they weren't living as long
(25:32):
as we are because of you know, outdoor conditions, but
they probably weren't dying of things like cancer as much
as maybe our populations are now. Is that a logical conclusion?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Well, I don't know about what was happening three or
four centuries ago, but but it is. You know, in
the present day, individuals who are exposed to more light
at night do have greatly increased risk of cardiac diseases
and premature death as well as diabetes and other things.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
But would wouldn't that follow? Wouldn't that follow logically?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
On?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Doctor? That you know that that people who lived in
our continent, let us say, you know, five hundred years ago,
who didn't have internal light and and probably went to
sleep when the sun went down and got up when
the sun rose, and had maximum exposures. I'm just trying
to deal logically here. Now, maybe they died more of
(26:35):
of of animal attacks or or than than we do.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
But even even a century ago, uh, school kids where
there was much less artificial light exposure, school kids got
two hours more sleep per night, and they generally awoke
without an alarm clock. You know, I mean ninety percent.
How many are getting up with that an alarm clock today?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Right? Not many? Harvey jump in here if you have
a follow up.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
Well, you know, it's the science of it isn't my seal,
But the politics of it is really befuddling to me
that it would be so simple to deal with this.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Well, the doctor suggesting it's a nineteen billion dollar industry
at the golf lobby, their representatives on K Street are
instrumental here, That's what he's saying, and I believe him.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
Well, I feel victimized because I don't play golf.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
That's a logical conclusion as well. Counselor Harvey is always
thank you so much. Okay, good night, Harvey. I'll talk
to you tomorrow. Thank you much, looking forward to it.
You sound great. Let me go to Kevin and Cambridge. Kevin,
you were next on, Charles Zeesler, go right ahead.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Uh yeah, I have a different Circadian question. I have
heard folks extol the healthy virtues of cultures that practice
siesta and split their sleep, sleeping part of it during
the heat of the day.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Well, that we seem to have evolved with the ability
to have both uh split sleep at night as well
as a siesta splitting our waking hours during the daytime.
We're a little different than most other mammals in that
we don't take little cat naps and rat naps throughout
(28:41):
the night. But we but we and we have instead
a major episode of sleep at night and a major
episode of wakefulness during the daytime. But in time's gone by,
before the advent of electric light, particularly during the the
you know, the long winter nights in places like England,
(29:05):
people would go they actually it was so commonly referred
to when theres a historian who wrote a book about
this called A Day's Close. But people would talk about
first sleep and second sleep. First sleep when the sun set,
they would go to sleep, they have deep sleep at
the beginning of the night, and they'd get up for
(29:27):
around midnight or in the middle of their nightly sleep
episode walk around some people, you know. He speculates that
most children were conceived probably during that interval between the
first sleep and second sleep, and then the second sleep,
or the sweet sleep as it was sometimes referred to,
was the stages of sleep that were probably greatly enriched
(29:50):
in rapid eye movement sleep which is associated with vivid dreaming,
and that would occur in the second part of the
night before dawn, and then the people would get up
similarly like as you pointed out, in many cultures, especially
during the summer, in the siesta cultures, they would take
(30:12):
a mid afternoon siesta. And that is a perfectly reasonable way.
And our system seems to be able to adapt to
sleeping about six hours at night, I or six hours
at night and then a couple of hours in the
middle of the afternoon, and we can function very well
(30:33):
on that kind of schedule.
Speaker 7 (30:37):
And does that have an effect on things like cancer rates.
I mean, it seems like you would get have less
skin cancer if you're sleeping during the hottest part of
the day.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
But unless you're sleep.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I don't know if that. I don't know about any
studies that have investigated that that particular issue. But you know,
we in our society, most people, even in San Diego,
people get so little exposure to outdoor light, less than
(31:08):
thirty minutes a day that the real you know, the
real health hazard is insufficient exposure to light that is
both on our skin and certainly on our eyes for
resetting our circaded lithms, and those who get insufficient light
(31:35):
during the day are at increased risk of premature death
and cardio metabholic diseases.
Speaker 7 (31:43):
Although those of us who are fair skin, they're always
being told to stay out of the sun.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
That's correct about more recent studies have shown that the
while skin cancer is a hazard, a particuliarly for those
with fair skin, if you make sure that you don't
get excessive exposure to sunlight, especially in the middle of
(32:12):
the day, that what is more hazardous is not getting
exposed to light, which has the impact on health is
equivalent to smoking. That was discovered by studying people who
were so meticulous about putting sunscreen on and avoiding exposure
(32:35):
to light. And to the researchers surprise, there all cause
mortality risk was greatly increased the more successful they were
at preventing exposure to light.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
So what would you recommend as the minimum amount of
sunlight that we should get each day?
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Ideally somewhere in the half an hour to forty five
minute range.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
I would say, so half.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
An hour to forty five minutes to be outdoors.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
In the sun, taking a walk, you know, walking the dog,
you know.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And anything less than that is potentially dangerous long term,
and anything more than that is potentially dangerous short term.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Yeah. Well, you know, if you if you're if you're careful,
I don't think that being out in the sun more
than that is necessarily dangerous. I mean, in other wise
you can wear you know, clothing, so that the key
thing is trying to avoid getting a sunburn.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Okay, yeah, well that's a case of a lot of
sun sunburns as a child, because that's just the way
it was back in the day.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Right, No, we can't, we can't. We can't. We can't
undo the past, I know, we you know my father
would slather oil on us to concentrate the sunlight.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So yes, yes, I had that experience and it ended
up with with sun blisters.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yes, yes, I know, I know.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Is that only a direct sun or is that just
being outside when the sun is up?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Well, being outside is good, but if you're you know,
if you're if you're not exposed to the sunlight. So
first of all, when you're outside, your your eyes are
going to be exposed to reflected light, and the light
outdoors is much much much brighter. That's why you know,
(34:41):
if you have you know, for those of you who
take pictures, you know, each time you changed the what
used to be called the f stop or you know whatever,
it's like a tenfold difference in light intensity. So inside
light is measured in a unit called locks, which is
the amount of light to which you would be exposed
holding a single candle a meter away from you, So
(35:04):
one candle, when you're in a reasonably lit room, you
are exposed to about one hundred, maybe one hundred and
fifty blocks of light the moment you step outside, even
just after dawn or just before dusk, it's over ten
thousand loucks, and in the middle of the day it's
over one hundred thousand loucks. So we, you know, we
(35:25):
don't realize because when the light is a thousand times brighter,
we might only see it as being twice as bright.
So we're not very good at really detecting quantitatively exactly
how much brighter it is. But it's much brighter outside,
(35:47):
so that even if you're getting reflected light, it's sending
a strong signal to your brain that it's daytime.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Great, gentlemen, I have to pause here, Kevin, great questions.
Thank you for the questions. I have one other calling.
We're going to get to her on the other side
of the break, and we'll wrap it up with Dr
Charles Zizler, Brigham and Women's and the Harvard Medical School.
This has been I think a really interesting hour and
a much more detailed and instructive than I would have anticipated.
(36:17):
Tina and Marlborough, we're going to get to you right
after the break. Stay with us here on Nightside.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
We are talking about daylight savings time Eastern Standard time
with doctor Charles Zizler Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard
Medical School.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Let me go to.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Tina in Marlborough. Tina, gonna get you in here real quickly.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Go right ahead, Tina, So I might I have a
question for the doctor that might be a little bit
longer than quickly, but we'll do what we can.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yes, I you go ahead.
Speaker 8 (36:53):
I am listening to everything you're saying.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I just have a question. I feel like I'm doomed
because I have a very messed up circadian rhythm. My
friends call me upside down. I've been a night owl
since the day I was born, and since we've hit
the pandemic, people working from home, et cetera, it's gotten
very much worse for me. I just I am up
at night, I have energy, and I sleep all the morning.
(37:20):
Is there any hope? Is there anything I can do
to switch that cycle?
Speaker 4 (37:26):
If there is, I love this question, and thank you
for calling I'm a night owl myself, but I love
you for that. The key thing is we have a
mixed marriage at home. My wife's an early morning type,
and so she likes to get up at four o'clock
(37:47):
in the morning, and you know, so the the key
thing is consistency in the timing of when you're sleeping
and waking, and and many people don't realize that having
a consistent bedtime and a consistent wake time is just
as important as the duration of sleep. And more and
(38:12):
more studies are finding that optimizing your bedtime and wake
time and the consistency of those and many night owls
end up having to end up early for this, that
and the other, and so they have very irregular sleep
wake patterns, which is probably the reason why the study
(38:35):
that was published today showed that people who either are
extreme evening types or extreme morning types are at increased
risk of earlier death. So what can you do? Increasing
your exposure to light in the morning, So if you
can have natural light coming in in the morning, that
(38:57):
will help you to get up in the morning. And
decreasing your exposure to light in the evening. We did
a study a few years ago in which we showed
that reading from a what we called a light emitting
e book, which is a fancy name for saying a
tablet or an iPad or a phone or whatever in
(39:20):
the evening instead of a printed book actually suppresses the
release of the sleep, promoting hormone melatonin and shifts, and
shifts are biological clock to a much later hour, making
it more difficult for us to fall asleep in the
evening and more difficult to wake up in the morning.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
So, folks, on that point, I hate to end this
conversation because it's been fascinating. Tina. I hope you've got
some good guidance there, but I'm flat up against the
ten o'clock news. I so wish you had called earlier.
Thank you for joining us. I'd like to have doctor
Zeesler back maybe if he's willing to. He's a great
(39:58):
radio guest. Doctor Zeesler, You've been fabulous.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
And thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Every academic do I feel that way about. But you
have been fabulous tonight, and I really thank you for
all the time you've given us.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Well. Thank you, Dan and I enjoyed our discussion.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Thank you very much. Doctor Childs. Zeisler, Chair of the
Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital,
Director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
I'd love to have you back, if you would be
willing to consider that at some point over the winter.
I love to do it again.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Okay, I'd love to too.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Thank you so much, doctor, I so appreciate it. What
a great guest. When we come back, if you're on
the line and you'd like to stay there, we can
take a couple of you on phone, but you're called
in late and then we're going to switch topics right
after the ten o'clock news, So if you want to
talk about your sleep rhythms, come on, bring it on.
Stay right there. Betty and Pat stay there and others
(40:52):
joined the conversation back on Nightside right after the ten
o'clock news.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I'm Deli Fleasy Boston Video.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Again. Want to thank my guest last hour, doctor Charles Ziesler,
Chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at
Brigham and Women's Hospital and director of the Division of
Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. And we talked about
what's going to be happening this weekend, which happens late
October early November every year when the clocks are set
(41:27):
back an hour, fall back an hour, so sometime in
theory early Sunday morning, it will lose an hour of time,
but we will pick up an hour's worth of sleep,
so it's spring forward fall back. Some of the listeners
who listen to doctor Zeesler have held on through the news,
We're going to get to them. If you'd like to
(41:48):
comment about your problems with sleep at this time of year,
if it is amplified or perhaps improved moved when we
change our clocks as we will this Sunday morning, feel
free to join the conversation. Let me go start it
off with Betty is in the boat. Betty, you are
(42:12):
next up, one nightsack. Go right ahead, Betty.
Speaker 8 (42:14):
How are you tonight, Dan, I'm.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Good, Betty. I'm sorry that you didn't get a chance
to talk with doctor Zezler, but you just got in
a little late, so but go ahead. Love to know
about your sleep pattern. You you live a very interesting life.
You live on a boat in Boston Harbor.
Speaker 8 (42:30):
That's correct. And excuse me. I have a very unique
situation that I wanted to talk to him about that.
Speaker 7 (42:39):
I have.
Speaker 8 (42:41):
A genetic disease called the twenty one HYDROXYLESED deficiency which
does not permit me to go to sleep. Really, I
can go anywhere from four to eight days and stay awake.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (42:55):
And that my friends don't understand the fact that once
I go to sleep, I'm not talking to you because
I want my sleep, and that medication doesn't always work,
because sometimes if I'm taking something for sleep and will
convert it to speed and then I'm really in trouble
and i can't sleep. And I wanted to know if
(43:17):
he had any suggestions. I'm such a bizarre illness. Only
one percent of the people in the world have this disease,
and it's prominent in Naoshkenazi's youth population.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Does does that mean? And again, Betty, you're drifting in
out of me with this phone, with this own connection.
When you say one percent of people in the world,
does that mean also one percent of people in the
United States?
Speaker 8 (43:43):
Yes, the entirety, that would mean.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
That would mean about three point two million people. That's
a lot of people.
Speaker 8 (43:49):
Yeah, I've never before like Tina before me, she said,
you know, she's nocturnal. She stays, she's a person who sleeps.
I am a person that Right now, it's ten o'clock,
I'm tired, and if I take sleeping medicine, I won't
go to sleep till seven o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Now, I'm assuming that you have talked to other doctors
about this, and you're receiving medical care and attention for this. Correct.
Speaker 8 (44:21):
Oh, for years, I've been a mystery to them.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Yeah. What I would only say is that we hope
to have doctor Zeezler on again. If you wanted to
drop him a note. I can't tell you whether he
would respond to you. But he was a really interesting
interview and someone who was really able to explain, and
he listened to what people said. I was very impressed
with him, as I guess, so if you drop him
(44:48):
a note, yes.
Speaker 8 (44:50):
I was very impressed with him also. And my problem
is with the change of clops I just my body
just goes into whack mode. Sorry to say that. And
I don't sleep.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
It's a medical term. I mean, it's a technical medical
term that you're employed. Wow, so you can actually stay awake.
You're telling me four to eight days without sleep?
Speaker 8 (45:17):
Correct?
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Man? You should be like in the Special Forces. And
I mean I'm serious. I mean that would be a
tremendous talent to have. But boy, I can only tell
you that if you want to hold on. My producer,
Dan has a copy of our rundown. Dan, you could
(45:39):
dictate to to Betty his position as chair of the
Division of Sleep and sir Katie and disorders that bring
him to Women's hospital. And I'm sure that that if
you wrote him a note or left him a call,
I suspect he'd be interested in talking to you.
Speaker 8 (45:55):
I mean, seriously, I thank you, and I thank you
for my pink tie, my pink shirt.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Okay, it got delivered. That's good. Well, I hope you'll
wear it all right, Betty hold on uh. And and Dean,
my producer tonight, will give you his his title and
which portion of bring him to Women's he's associated with.
And I'm sure if you call or drop a note
(46:23):
uh and remind him that you didn't get a chance
to speak with him. But I think he'll be fascinated
by your situation, and I'm sure he will reach back
to you. I can't promise you that, but I'm virtually
certain that he will reach back to you because he
seems to be a real jumper.
Speaker 8 (46:36):
So it's interesting that when I go to a doctor
and I say, this is what I have to go?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
What is this?
Speaker 8 (46:45):
It's a sufficiency and I have to sit there and
give them the breakdown of this, And Howard.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I suspect, I don't suspect you'll have to give this
gentleman a breakdown. And also I want Dan to give
you the correct spelling of his last name. It's it's
c Z E I s I e R. So make
sure that Dan, Betty has the spelling uh and the
name of the Division of Brigham and Women so she
can track him down. Okay, And if you have problems,
thank you. Also give Betty my my direct phone number, Dan,
(47:19):
so if you have problems, I can try to reach
out for you.
Speaker 6 (47:21):
Okay, Thanks, thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Go ahead, do you take the call? Dan? Go ahead?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Let me go to Pat in Weymouth. Pat, you are
next on Nightside. Welcome. We're talking about sleep disorders and
sleeping and more importantly setting the clocks back this Saturday
night Sunday morning. What do you what do you think?
Speaker 8 (47:44):
Hi? Thanks for taking my call.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
You're welcome.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Pat.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
I have a situation that I think has been addressed
with the previous caller. And then I guess it was
Tina who also called. I am definitely a night howl.
I prefer the nighttime over the daytime. It's not unusual
(48:08):
at all. In fact, it's what I do each night
is I can go to sleep around two thirty three
o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Well, that's okay. We'll keep you company every night till midnight.
I promise you.
Speaker 8 (48:19):
I know, I know, I absolutely know that, because you
know I'm up and I enjoy it. I find things
to do, whatever it is, and then I do try
to get eight hours of sleep. So I'm setting my
alarm for like about eleven o'clock in the morning, and
(48:40):
I have room darkening shades.
Speaker 6 (48:42):
And how long?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
How long have you lived with that pattern? If I
could ask how long I would.
Speaker 8 (48:48):
Say, I would say that it's pretty much my whole life.
Except now I've been retired for about thirteen years. And
when I was working, I was living in Weymouth. I
had to work in Wallfam and I had to be
there at seven, So I was getting up at about
four or four thirty and then going, you know, so
(49:08):
I was going to bed. It was opposite from what
I really preferred.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
When I was working mornings in television from nineteen ninety
oh god, nineteen ninety five until two thousand and seven,
I was on those same roads at that hour of
the morning. I was four am to noon shift, the
night shift for many many years. But I've been able
(49:34):
to adapt my sleep pattern. There was a lot of
people I can remember when I was younger, I would
sleep until ten ten thirty on a Saturday or Sunday morning.
But now as you get older, I think it's a
little bit more difficult to sleep that length of time.
Speaker 8 (49:54):
But I don't know. I am no. I have no
problem going to sleep, no problem at all when I
go to bed, no problem at all.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
And then got your body on it. You got your
body in a cycle, and you keep that cycle. And
I assume you keep the cycle every day of the week.
It's the same every day, ansis during.
Speaker 6 (50:12):
The weekends, okay, every day of the week.
Speaker 8 (50:15):
And that's what I also caught the end of somebody's
conversation was the continuity of that might be a factor
exactly what you just said as opposed to premature deaths.
If I keep that pattern, because that's my preferred pattern,
and I can get up and you know, I get
(50:36):
about eight hours sleep and that's about it, and I
don't have to set an alarm. That's about the time
that I generally wake up what my body apparently needs.
And I get up and I do things, and you know,
I'm an active person. I am outside when I am awake,
and so I was just curious about I very.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Really by the way, use an alarm. I know I
have to be up because they have to be somewhere
for an employment. But most mornings I wake up, and
when I wake up and it's a little early, I'll
look at the clock and if it's five thirty and
I know the gym isn't even open until six, I'll
go back to sleep for an hour and I'll say that, Okay,
(51:17):
this is going to be an early gym day. Get
it out of the way. And basically, I adjust the
way to what my body wants me to do. And
it's worked pretty well for me, to be honest with you,
so I'm I'm not going to change it. I know,
I know, but I'll tell you this when I finished.
When I finished the show at midnight, and as you
probably know, I do what we call night side postgame.
(51:39):
I do a hit on Facebook at nightside with Dan
Ray and I don't know if you ever caught that,
but I do about ten minutes with a group of
people and kind of go over the show and what
I liked, what I didn't like about the show, and
then it takes me a little while. I just can't
go right to bed at twelve twenty. I mean I
have to kind of, you know, relax little bit. Sometimes
(52:01):
I'll just do a crossword puzzle or try to do
a crossword puzzle, and that'll put me to sleep, or
I'll try to read a little bit and that can
put me to sleep. So I was interested that doctor
Disease look talked about how that it's better to read
from a book, you know, on the printed page, than
it is to try to read from a tablet. And
I think a lot of that has to do with
some of the electronics.
Speaker 8 (52:22):
The Yeah, oh, I'd rather read a book, definitely, right.
And also and I don't want to keep down the
line too long. When it comes to making appointments, I
always try to schedule it. I want to clock to
a clock something like that in the afternoon because I
want to control. You know. There are times I can't
(52:44):
do that and I don't like it. I don't like it,
but I don't do it often and I try to
avoid it.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah. Well, I do the same thing, but I do
the opposite. So in other words, if I if I
have a doctor's appointment, I want to get it done early.
I don't want to hang it over my hand during
the day. It's a simple you know, give me eight thirty,
give me nine o'clock. If I have to weigh in
with awaken one eighty, whether I'm doing it remotely or
doing it in person, nine point fifteen, uh, and then
just get I don't want it to destroy the day.
It's as simple as that.
Speaker 8 (53:12):
Out say, for me, it would destroy the day to
get right.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
But but for me, I have to build my day.
For me, the worst things are something in the middle
of the day because I have to adjust when do
I get to go to the gym. We're all different.
We're all different, which is which is great. Pat. I
wish you had had called earlier. We could have got you.
Speaker 8 (53:33):
Happens is a.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Lot of people decide to call it a quarter of
and a quarter of the hour. And most of the
time we're having someone like you know, a physician. He's
got to get up in the morning too, so we
normally don't keep.
Speaker 8 (53:45):
Oh, I understand that.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
That's great. Well, Pat, thanks for calling. And if I
have I talked with you, be our first time.
Speaker 8 (53:52):
It's pretty much well, I won't say it is the
first time, but I haven't called in years.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Well, come on, you're you're you're up listening, come on,
help me out here. Okay. I always look at the
different points of view and different voices. Whatever we're talking.
Speaker 8 (54:07):
I'll call you so much that you'll be sorry to
hear from me.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
That's not that, that would never happen. Delightful, delightful, Thank you, pad,
I appreciate you.
Speaker 8 (54:16):
Going all right, Well, thank you for taking my call.
Speaker 6 (54:18):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
You're very welcome. Okay, coming back, we're going to take
a break. If you want to talk about sleep patterns,
I will give you to the bottom of the ar
if you want to get a call quickly in now,
and if not, when I come back, I'm going to
open up another conversation which I'm interested in, and that
deals with the decision of Stopping Shop to close eight supermarkets.
Stop and Shop is in what it used to be.
(54:40):
It is now owned, I believe, by a multinational company,
and I hate to see supermarkets go away because that
obviously is going to cause a problem for the communities
that are impacted. If you want to talk a little
bit more about sleep, feel free. If not, we'll talk
about the disappearing supermarkets which I don't and disappearing source,
(55:01):
which I don't think is a good thing. We'll be
back on Nightside right after this quick break
Who's radio.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray I WBZ Koston's Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Well, this Sunday, I think everyone knows. We're going to
have our clocks go back theoretically at two AM on
Sunday morning, which means Son is going to be dropping
below the horizon a little earlier. Next week. It'll be
dark around four thirty beginning next Sunday Sunday evening. We're
(00:28):
going to be talking in just a moment, doctor Charles Eisler.
He's the chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian
Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital, also the director of
the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. But
before we do that, it's going to take a moment
and invite people to start calling now at six, one, seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty, And if you happen to be calling number ten,
(00:49):
you're going to win two tickets to see Celtic Thunder
at the Premier Theater at Foxwoods on November seventh. Set
off on a musical journey with the Irish music sensations.
Celtic Thunder Live Complete the show, Complete show info and
tickets are available at Foxwoods dot com. Now we have
(01:09):
given away three pairs of tickets already, will give away
a pair of tickets tonight, as I have said each night,
if you know you're gonna go and you will even
use them, great, but please don't take them and not
use them. And we'll have one more peer tomorrow night.
And what's gonna happen is that Dan the producer is
simply going to answer the line pretty quickly. Call a one,
call a two, call a four, call a six, caller seven,
(01:30):
and if you're lucky, caller number ten. This you don't
have to give your identification until he says caller ten,
and hang right on the line six one, seven, nine, three,
one ten thirty tenth caller, we'll win two tickets to
see Celtic Thunder at the Premier Theater at Foxwoods on
November seventh, a week from tonight, set off on a
musical journey with the Irish music sensations Celtic Thunder Live.
(01:51):
Complete show info and tickets available at Foxwoods dot com.
Now while Dan takes care of that and finds caller
number ten for us, we just got call and number ten,
so we have a winter tonight. You can stop calling.
We have our call and number ten we're gonna go
to call and number one this hour, doctor Charles Seisler,
(02:12):
Doctor Sisler, Welcome to Night's Side. How are you, sir?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Fine? How are you Dan?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm doing just great now. You you have to have
a big business card because you're in the chair of
the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham and
Women's Hospital and also director of the Division of Sleep
Medicine at Harvard Medical School. I always get confused. I
assume that in the summertime we're Daylight Savings time, and
(02:37):
then in the winter it's Eastern Standard Time, or do
I have it backwards?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
You absolutely correct. Yeah, You've got it correct.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Okay, that's great. So we're going to have a big event.
Actually it's it's a theoretical event. People will go to
bed whenever they want on Saturday night or Sunday, and
we get an extra hour sleep. Everybody remembers fall back,
spring forward or spring forward fall back, whichever. But this
still was a lot of controversy about this because I
(03:11):
guess a lot of people are impacted by this. Is
it the circadian rhythms that we all have within ourselves
that is most impacted, that that's the cause of concern.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Here that is the cause of concern, and in fact,
the impact is greatest in the spring, when we lose
an hour of sleep and try to shift our circadian
rhythms to an earlier hour. And that acute change in
the spring is associated with all sorts of problems, including
(03:45):
an increased risk of heart attacks and increased risk in
motor vehicle crashes. Now in the fall, when we go
back to the more reasonable time zone, the standard time
(04:06):
let we actually our heart attacks decrease in the week
following uh and when we get that extra sleep. But yes,
you know where I stand uh and, And it is
because even being on the western edge of a time zone,
which brings you closer to the sort of situation that
(04:29):
we'd be in if we were continuous daylight saving time,
that actually is associated with increased risk of many diseases, cancer,
heart disease, diabetes, and other chronic diseases, many of which
are associated with the combination of disruption of our circadian
(04:52):
flocks and also sleep deficiency.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Okay, so we have a lot to go over here.
First of all, you mentioned we're.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
In the East East time zone Eastern stand we will
be in the Eastern Standard time zone, and everybody knows
we have what three time zones, well, eastern Central Mountain
four time zones in the continental United States, and I
guess that's part of Alaska and Hawaii that are in
other other time zones. But when it hits noontime here
(05:24):
in Boston, it's generally nine o'clock out in Los Angeles,
and those of us who spend any time on the
West Coast, it's a very different feel to the day,
particularly on Sunday when we're watching football games at nine
o'clock in the morning and you're used to watching the
Patriots at noontime or one o'clock.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And so let's talk about the whole concept of circadian rhythms.
Can you put that in language that most of us
non scientists can understand, right, So.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
I'll try to avoid geek line whiche. But we have
an internal clock in the brain that is kind of
the conductor of an orchestra of clocks throughout the body.
And so this central clock receives light input through our
(06:19):
eyes that keeps us in sync with the twenty four
our day when we're exposed to light during the daytime
and darkness at night, and that internal clock controls the
timing of the release of hormones, the timing of daily
variations and alertness and performance. And it sustains our ability
(06:44):
to function well during the daytime and to sleep at night.
It also regulates our digestion, our ability to process food,
and our ability to breathe. Our heart, our cardiac system
is regulated by it. Our kidneys are regulated by it.
(07:06):
So all these different systems in each organ. More than
half of the genes in that organ are regulated by
the circadian clock. And it's a different set of genes
in each organ because it's organ specific as to what's
important to have that organ function well. Now, when those
(07:28):
clocks are screwed up, and they get screwed up by
exposure light at night and insufficient exposure to light during
the day. And there was just a paper that came
out today as a matter of fact, in the proceedings
of the National Academy of Sciences showing that the risk
(07:48):
of cardio metabolic diseases, diseases of the heart, and diseases
like diabetes and so on, as well as premature death
are greatly increased. And we're talking about my more than
fifty percent by exposure excessive exposure to light at night
or insufficient exposure to light during the daytime, and also
(08:14):
by being exposed to light that shifts are circading rhythms
to a later or too much of an earlier hour.
So in order to optimize our health, it's best to
get exposure to light during the daytime and sleep in
(08:37):
the dark at night. I mean. The great thing is
these are easily modifiable risk factors and not much was
known about them previously. So you know, people can get
if they're you know, if they can't have shades or whatever,
if there's light coming in from the outside, you can
(08:59):
get ice, shave eyemasks to at night, and you know,
go out and take a walk during the daytime and
that will all help keep your Cicadian rooms in sync. Okay,
let me take a break because sleepy.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I just need to take a quick commercial break. I
want to hold the thought then we get back. I
want to I don't want to challenge you, that's for sure,
but I want to challenge the idea of because when
you think about it, the amount of sunlight that we
receive is going to be the same in a twenty
(09:38):
four hour cycle, whether we're in daylight savings time or
Eastern Standard time. There is that one day where we
get a little an hour's extra sleep, and then there's
the one day in the spring where we lose an
hour's worth of sleep. But I'm really interested because you're
teaching me a lot here and hopefully a lot of
people are listening and learning a lot too. I know
(10:01):
that that we have body clocks, but I never understood
as because you explained them so well that there's a
bunch of different body clocks for each organ and they
and they interrelate. So I want to get to that.
But I want to come back and talk about the
amount of daylight per day because it really doesn't change,
(10:23):
you know, except for those two days on the end
of the cycle. We'll get back to all of that
if you want to talk with doctor Zeisler. And again,
there are a lot of you out there I know
who are impacted at this time of year by there's
a certain disorder when when we lose daylight during the daytime,
and it affects different people differently. Feel free to join
(10:44):
our conversation. UH six one seven two ten thirty six
one seven nine ten thirty back with doctor Charles Zeisler.
He's the chair of the Division of Sleep in Circadian
Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital, also the Director of
Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ the News Radio.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My guest is doctor Charles Zizzler. Zizler, Chair of the
Division of Sleeping Circadian Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital,
Director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
Doctor Zeesler, let me pose this question, and this is
going to sound like a really simplistic question, but it's
one that I have thought about, and that is the
(11:33):
amount of daylight that we receive here in the Northern
Hemisphere and in the Boston area doesn't really change. It
just it's we have more daylight in the morning and
less in the afternoon, So the amount of daylight doesn't change.
The number of hours of light diminishes all the way
(11:56):
up until about December twentieth, and then it starts to
fill up that during the summer months, we have daylight
from five o'clock in the morning until eight thirty at night,
and we're talking about fifteen and a half hours of
daylight and conversely, in the wintertime we have probably fifteen
hours or so of darkness. Why does this make such
(12:18):
an impact over the time of day we take in
that sunlight? I assume it has something to do with
our habits of sleeping and working nine to five am.
I right or wrong on that?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
You are right, Dan, And that's the very student observation
that you're making. And so to really understand why the
timing of that light is important, it's critical to realize
that we are internal clocks have a cycle length that
(13:01):
is not exactly twenty four hours, and they have to
be reset every day. Most people, three out of four people,
the cycle length is longer than twenty four hours. And
it can be and it can be, you know, half
an hour longer, quarter of an hour longer. It's everybody,
(13:23):
and it's determined by our genetics, and it's slightly different
than every person. But in three quarters of people, it's
longer than twenty four hours, and that means that morning
light exposure is most important for resetting our internal biological clock,
our brain's circadian clock. And the problem with permanent daylight
(13:46):
savings time is that in Boston, out of three hundred
and sixty five days a year. Let's say you have
to get up at six o'clock in the morning in
order to start work or school at seven That means
you'd be waking up in the dark on two hundred
(14:08):
and thirty nine of those three hundred and sixty five
days per year, So the vast majority of the days
you would be in the dark. And even at seven am,
when you'd be starting school or work and have already
taken the bus to get there, driven the car to
(14:30):
get there, done whatever, you would still be in the
dark at seven am on one hundred and forty eight
days of the three hundred and sixty five days. And
that's because you know, we call it daylight savings time.
But you know, Congress can do a lot of things.
But just as you point out, they can't protect sunshine.
(14:54):
The number of hours at sunshine is set by you know,
geological actors. So they're not saving sunshine. They're just moving us.
They're moving us to a different time zone. And daylight
(15:14):
saving time is actually mid Atlantic time. Yes, so what
it would be doing would be taking California and putting
California on mountain time year round, taking Colorado and putting
Colorado on Central Standard time year around, taking Chicago and
putting it on Eastern Standard time year round, and taking
(15:37):
Boston and putting us on mid Atlantic time, so it
would require us to wake up an hour earlier every
day relative to the solar day. And that's why every
time this has been tried, the Russians tried it abandoned
(15:59):
after three We tried it in the United States in
the seventies during the you know, when there was a crisis, right,
and we tried it during World War Two because there was.
And every time it's been tried it has been rejected
(16:19):
because you know, when you're going for two hundred and
thirty nine days a year waking up in the dark
and starting school or work one hundred and fifty days
a year in the dark, people are like, who did
this to us? What are you doing? Who thought this
was a good idea?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, you know, it's interesting if I could just pick
up a couple of points you talked about the Russians. Russia,
if I'm not mistaken, has actually about ten or eleven
time zone. It's the widest country in the world to
the east of Lavostok. So I don't know what if
their experience is exactly contiguous to watch. Obviously we have
(17:00):
Hawaii and.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Well they went to the whole the whole shebang went
to permanent daylight saving time.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah they oh, they went that way.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Okay, right, they went that way. They did you know
what what Rubio calls the Sunshine Protection Act. Okay, and
it didn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere that it's been tried,
because when people you know, it's kind of odd that
we do daylight saving time in the summer because if
they're already the sun, you know, is setting way later.
(17:29):
And even when I was a kid, I was wonder,
you know, okay, the sun's going down at seven thirty,
and now we're going to make it go down at
eight thirty.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So why we I always thought that it had to
do with Here's what I thought it had to do
with it. I thought that the push in the spring
was so that kids little league in soccer games could
go a little bit later, because obviously we don't hit
our peak, you know, our latest sunset is it until
sometime in late June. But with you know, soccer program
(18:00):
and getting kids out to exercise after school, and then
I know that Farmers had had a big influence in
this because yeah, they were getting up in the dark,
and I forget how they took what position they took,
but I thought that the farm belt had, yeah, a
bigger influence.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
All these things are myths because the farmers don't really
like I mean, their animals don't change. Okay, But it's
really the golf industry that is pushing because they you know,
they calculate how many more tea times they could get in.
(18:42):
It's a nineteen billion dollar industry in the United States,
so they're always trying to push to have, you know,
the the number of hours after five PM where somebody
might be able to run through a round of golf.
Oh gotcha, even if it's even if it means that
the sun doesn't set till nine thirty.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So when I was talking about spring soccer in Little League,
it's really the golfers or the driving pardon the punt,
the driving factor here. Uh, we got to take a
quick break. I got some calls on the other side
who I'm sure would love to talk with you. Would
you be willing to take a couple of calls on
the other side of the I I'd love to Okay, great, Uh,
(19:25):
it's he really explains this well. Doctor Charles Zizler, chair
of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham
and bring him in Women's Hospital here in Boston and
director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
We are going to get to phone calls, Harvey and
Kevin and if you'd like to talk with doctor Zeesler
(19:46):
six six one seven, we'll trying to get a few
of you in here. Uh and ought. It isn't often
you get to talk to someone who has this depth
of experience in this subject. If you have an interest
in it. We are coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's
news Radio.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Joined delighted to be joined by doctor Charles Ziesler. He's
the chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders
at Brigham and Women's Hospital, director the Division of Sleep
Medicine and Harvard Medical School. We're talking about the big
chains that will take place, as it does every fall,
when we leave daylight Savings time and go back to
Eastern Standard time, when we all will get an extra
hour of sleep this Saturday night Sunday morning, which sounds great,
(20:35):
but doctor seesel was explaining there's a lot of subsequent
impact here which is not necessarily healthy for our circadian
rhythms and by extension, healthy for us. Doctor seesel let's
get some phone calls. If that's okay with you, let's go.
We'll start off in Cambridge. Harvey is in Cambridge. Harvey, welcome,
You are first up this hour and nightside welcome, sir.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
Yeah, this is a not the usual kind of topic
I would call in on, but I.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Want to identify yourself so that people know who this is. Harvey.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
I'm a civil liberties and clinical defense lawyer and author
who lives in Cambridge and has a libertarian political tendencies.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
At and a great and a dear friend, Harvey Silverglade
and Harvey, I owe you a phone call and a
matter we won't discuss, but I hope you're doing well.
You sound great. You're on with the doctor Zasler, go
right ahead.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
My question is this My understanding is that it would
take a vote of Congress to abolish the switching from
daylight savings to Eastern standard. They're all kinds of lobbyists
to lobby for, you know, everything from money for local
roads to god knows what why is it so difficult
(21:53):
to get Congress to vote to abolish this? It's a
wartime and aquarism, as I understand it, And why is
it so difficult to get Congress to do something about this?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, unfortunately, Attorney Silvergate, the Congress is trying to do
the opposite. They're actually trying to force all Americans to
wake up an hour earlier throughout the year by pushing
all of our time zones eastward by one hour. That
would the estimates that that would increase cancers by one
(22:32):
hundred thousand cases per year, including five percent increase in
breast cancer cases and a fifteen to thirty percent increase
in uterine cancer, liver cancer, and some types of leukemia. So,
but the golf lobby is really, you know, spending fortune
to try to get and they actually a couple of
(22:54):
years ago, on a voice vote, the Senate passed unanimously
to to push us all one time zone eastward, but
unfortunately the House decided to have hearings on it and
did not pass it. But again it's been introduced again
this year, So the golf lobbing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So, just so I understand what's in play here, The
golf lobby would be pushing for that, and they are
able to get it through the Senate on a voicevode.
And if it hadn't been for the House, we would
all be on Eastern we'd all be on daylight savings
time throughout the.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Year permanently, so that we would be essentially on mid
Atlantic time because we'd be moved one time, we'd be
on the extreme western edge of the time zone, which
is the part of the time zone that is associated
with the increased health risk. Right now, we're on the
eastern side of the time zone of the Eastern time zone,
(23:52):
so we're in a much safer place right now.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
What causes the increase in cancer incidence of cancer? I'm
trying to figure what what is the correlation there. Obviously
it has to do something on the sleep pattern, right.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Well, it has to do with our with the abnormal
timing of exposure light. So our internal clock depends on
morning light to be reset, and and when we're going
to school and driving work in the dark, and then
we're inside offices and not exposed to outdoor light, our
internal clock drifts to a later hour. It making it
(24:32):
harder to get up, harder to fall asleep. We're exposed
to a lot of artificial light that suppresses the release
of the hormone melatonin, which is a hormone that uh
that that stops the spread of cancer. So yeah, so
it's it's a it's a that's the leading mechanism. So
(24:54):
night shift work, for example, the World Health Organization has
labeled a probable car synogen because of the exposure to
light that night shift workers, you know, that they're to
which they're exposed.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So this would mean and Harvey jump in here if
you like that. This would seem to mean to me
that centuries ago, centuries ago, when people were living without
reference to any sort of artificial clock corrections, that they
probably were not they maybe they weren't living as long
(25:32):
as we are because of you know, outdoor conditions, but
they probably weren't dying of things like cancer as much
as maybe our populations are now. Is that a logical conclusion?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Well, I don't know about what was happening three or
four centuries ago, but but it is. You know, in
the present day, individuals who are exposed to more light
at night do have greatly increased risk of cardiac diseases
and premature death as well as diabetes and other things.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
But would wouldn't that follow? Wouldn't that follow logically?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
On?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Doctor? That you know that that people who lived in
our continent, let us say, you know, five hundred years ago,
who didn't have internal light and and probably went to
sleep when the sun went down and got up when
the sun rose, and had maximum exposures. I'm just trying
to deal logically here. Now, maybe they died more of
(26:35):
of of animal attacks or or than than we do.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
But even even a century ago, uh, school kids where
there was much less artificial light exposure, school kids got
two hours more sleep per night, and they generally awoke
without an alarm clock. You know, I mean ninety percent.
How many are getting up with that an alarm clock today?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Right? Not many? Harvey jump in here if you have
a follow up.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
Well, you know, it's the science of it isn't my seal,
But the politics of it is really befuddling to me
that it would be so simple to deal with this.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Well, the doctor suggesting it's a nineteen billion dollar industry
at the golf lobby, their representatives on K Street are
instrumental here, That's what he's saying, and I believe him.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
Well, I feel victimized because I don't play golf.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
That's a logical conclusion as well. Counselor Harvey is always
thank you so much. Okay, good night, Harvey. I'll talk
to you tomorrow. Thank you much, looking forward to it.
You sound great. Let me go to Kevin and Cambridge. Kevin,
you were next on, Charles Zeesler, go right ahead.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
Uh yeah, I have a different Circadian question. I have
heard folks extol the healthy virtues of cultures that practice
siesta and split their sleep, sleeping part of it during
the heat of the day.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Well, that we seem to have evolved with the ability
to have both uh split sleep at night as well
as a siesta splitting our waking hours during the daytime.
We're a little different than most other mammals in that
we don't take little cat naps and rat naps throughout
(28:41):
the night. But we but we and we have instead
a major episode of sleep at night and a major
episode of wakefulness during the daytime. But in time's gone by,
before the advent of electric light, particularly during the the
you know, the long winter nights in places like England,
(29:05):
people would go they actually it was so commonly referred
to when theres a historian who wrote a book about
this called A Day's Close. But people would talk about
first sleep and second sleep. First sleep when the sun set,
they would go to sleep, they have deep sleep at
the beginning of the night, and they'd get up for
(29:27):
around midnight or in the middle of their nightly sleep
episode walk around some people, you know. He speculates that
most children were conceived probably during that interval between the
first sleep and second sleep, and then the second sleep,
or the sweet sleep as it was sometimes referred to,
was the stages of sleep that were probably greatly enriched
(29:50):
in rapid eye movement sleep which is associated with vivid dreaming,
and that would occur in the second part of the
night before dawn, and then the people would get up
similarly like as you pointed out, in many cultures, especially
during the summer, in the siesta cultures, they would take
(30:12):
a mid afternoon siesta. And that is a perfectly reasonable way.
And our system seems to be able to adapt to
sleeping about six hours at night, I or six hours
at night and then a couple of hours in the
middle of the afternoon, and we can function very well
(30:33):
on that kind of schedule.
Speaker 7 (30:37):
And does that have an effect on things like cancer rates.
I mean, it seems like you would get have less
skin cancer if you're sleeping during the hottest part of
the day.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
But unless you're sleep.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I don't know if that. I don't know about any
studies that have investigated that that particular issue. But you know,
we in our society, most people, even in San Diego,
people get so little exposure to outdoor light, less than
(31:08):
thirty minutes a day that the real you know, the
real health hazard is insufficient exposure to light that is
both on our skin and certainly on our eyes for
resetting our circaded lithms, and those who get insufficient light
(31:35):
during the day are at increased risk of premature death
and cardio metabholic diseases.
Speaker 7 (31:43):
Although those of us who are fair skin, they're always
being told to stay out of the sun.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
That's correct about more recent studies have shown that the
while skin cancer is a hazard, a particuliarly for those
with fair skin, if you make sure that you don't
get excessive exposure to sunlight, especially in the middle of
(32:12):
the day, that what is more hazardous is not getting
exposed to light, which has the impact on health is
equivalent to smoking. That was discovered by studying people who
were so meticulous about putting sunscreen on and avoiding exposure
(32:35):
to light. And to the researchers surprise, there all cause
mortality risk was greatly increased the more successful they were
at preventing exposure to light.
Speaker 7 (32:50):
So what would you recommend as the minimum amount of
sunlight that we should get each day?
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Ideally somewhere in the half an hour to forty five
minute range.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
I would say, so half.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
An hour to forty five minutes to be outdoors.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
In the sun, taking a walk, you know, walking the dog,
you know.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And anything less than that is potentially dangerous long term,
and anything more than that is potentially dangerous short term.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Yeah. Well, you know, if you if you're if you're careful,
I don't think that being out in the sun more
than that is necessarily dangerous. I mean, in other wise
you can wear you know, clothing, so that the key
thing is trying to avoid getting a sunburn.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Okay, yeah, well that's a case of a lot of
sun sunburns as a child, because that's just the way
it was back in the day.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Right, No, we can't, we can't. We can't. We can't
undo the past, I know, we you know my father
would slather oil on us to concentrate the sunlight.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So yes, yes, I had that experience and it ended
up with with sun blisters.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yes, yes, I know, I know.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Is that only a direct sun or is that just
being outside when the sun is up?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Well, being outside is good, but if you're you know,
if you're if you're not exposed to the sunlight. So
first of all, when you're outside, your your eyes are
going to be exposed to reflected light, and the light
outdoors is much much much brighter. That's why you know,
(34:41):
if you have you know, for those of you who
take pictures, you know, each time you changed the what
used to be called the f stop or you know whatever,
it's like a tenfold difference in light intensity. So inside
light is measured in a unit called locks, which is
the amount of light to which you would be exposed
holding a single candle a meter away from you, So
(35:04):
one candle, when you're in a reasonably lit room, you
are exposed to about one hundred, maybe one hundred and
fifty blocks of light the moment you step outside, even
just after dawn or just before dusk, it's over ten
thousand loucks, and in the middle of the day it's
over one hundred thousand loucks. So we, you know, we
(35:25):
don't realize because when the light is a thousand times brighter,
we might only see it as being twice as bright.
So we're not very good at really detecting quantitatively exactly
how much brighter it is. But it's much brighter outside,
(35:47):
so that even if you're getting reflected light, it's sending
a strong signal to your brain that it's daytime.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Great, gentlemen, I have to pause here, Kevin, great questions.
Thank you for the questions. I have one other calling.
We're going to get to her on the other side
of the break, and we'll wrap it up with Dr
Charles Zizler, Brigham and Women's and the Harvard Medical School.
This has been I think a really interesting hour and
a much more detailed and instructive than I would have anticipated.
(36:17):
Tina and Marlborough, we're going to get to you right
after the break. Stay with us here on Nightside.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
We are talking about daylight savings time Eastern Standard time
with doctor Charles Zizler Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard
Medical School.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Let me go to.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Tina in Marlborough. Tina, gonna get you in here real quickly.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Go right ahead, Tina, So I might I have a
question for the doctor that might be a little bit
longer than quickly, but we'll do what we can.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yes, I you go ahead.
Speaker 8 (36:53):
I am listening to everything you're saying.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I just have a question. I feel like I'm doomed
because I have a very messed up circadian rhythm. My
friends call me upside down. I've been a night owl
since the day I was born, and since we've hit
the pandemic, people working from home, et cetera, it's gotten
very much worse for me. I just I am up
at night, I have energy, and I sleep all the morning.
(37:20):
Is there any hope? Is there anything I can do
to switch that cycle?
Speaker 4 (37:26):
If there is, I love this question, and thank you
for calling I'm a night owl myself, but I love
you for that. The key thing is we have a
mixed marriage at home. My wife's an early morning type,
and so she likes to get up at four o'clock
(37:47):
in the morning, and you know, so the the key
thing is consistency in the timing of when you're sleeping
and waking, and and many people don't realize that having
a consistent bedtime and a consistent wake time is just
as important as the duration of sleep. And more and
(38:12):
more studies are finding that optimizing your bedtime and wake
time and the consistency of those and many night owls
end up having to end up early for this, that
and the other, and so they have very irregular sleep
wake patterns, which is probably the reason why the study
(38:35):
that was published today showed that people who either are
extreme evening types or extreme morning types are at increased
risk of earlier death. So what can you do? Increasing
your exposure to light in the morning, So if you
can have natural light coming in in the morning, that
(38:57):
will help you to get up in the morning. And
decreasing your exposure to light in the evening. We did
a study a few years ago in which we showed
that reading from a what we called a light emitting
e book, which is a fancy name for saying a
tablet or an iPad or a phone or whatever in
(39:20):
the evening instead of a printed book actually suppresses the
release of the sleep, promoting hormone melatonin and shifts, and
shifts are biological clock to a much later hour, making
it more difficult for us to fall asleep in the
evening and more difficult to wake up in the morning.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
So, folks, on that point, I hate to end this
conversation because it's been fascinating. Tina. I hope you've got
some good guidance there, but I'm flat up against the
ten o'clock news. I so wish you had called earlier.
Thank you for joining us. I'd like to have doctor
Zeesler back maybe if he's willing to. He's a great
(39:58):
radio guest. Doctor Zeesler, You've been fabulous.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
And thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Every academic do I feel that way about. But you
have been fabulous tonight, and I really thank you for
all the time you've given us.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Well. Thank you, Dan and I enjoyed our discussion.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Thank you very much. Doctor Childs. Zeisler, Chair of the
Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at Brigham and Women's Hospital,
Director of the Division of Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
I'd love to have you back, if you would be
willing to consider that at some point over the winter.
I love to do it again.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Okay, I'd love to too.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Thank you so much, doctor, I so appreciate it. What
a great guest. When we come back, if you're on
the line and you'd like to stay there, we can
take a couple of you on phone, but you're called
in late and then we're going to switch topics right
after the ten o'clock news, So if you want to
talk about your sleep rhythms, come on, bring it on.
Stay right there. Betty and Pat stay there and others
(40:52):
joined the conversation back on Nightside right after the ten
o'clock news.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I'm Deli Fleasy Boston Video.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Again. Want to thank my guest last hour, doctor Charles Ziesler,
Chair of the Division of Sleep and Circadian Disorders at
Brigham and Women's Hospital and director of the Division of
Sleep Medicine at Harvard Medical School. And we talked about
what's going to be happening this weekend, which happens late
October early November every year when the clocks are set
(41:27):
back an hour, fall back an hour, so sometime in
theory early Sunday morning, it will lose an hour of time,
but we will pick up an hour's worth of sleep,
so it's spring forward fall back. Some of the listeners
who listen to doctor Zeesler have held on through the news,
We're going to get to them. If you'd like to
(41:48):
comment about your problems with sleep at this time of year,
if it is amplified or perhaps improved moved when we
change our clocks as we will this Sunday morning, feel
free to join the conversation. Let me go start it
off with Betty is in the boat. Betty, you are
(42:12):
next up, one nightsack. Go right ahead, Betty.
Speaker 8 (42:14):
How are you tonight, Dan, I'm.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Good, Betty. I'm sorry that you didn't get a chance
to talk with doctor Zezler, but you just got in
a little late, so but go ahead. Love to know
about your sleep pattern. You you live a very interesting life.
You live on a boat in Boston Harbor.
Speaker 8 (42:30):
That's correct. And excuse me. I have a very unique
situation that I wanted to talk to him about that.
Speaker 7 (42:39):
I have.
Speaker 8 (42:41):
A genetic disease called the twenty one HYDROXYLESED deficiency which
does not permit me to go to sleep. Really, I
can go anywhere from four to eight days and stay awake.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (42:55):
And that my friends don't understand the fact that once
I go to sleep, I'm not talking to you because
I want my sleep, and that medication doesn't always work,
because sometimes if I'm taking something for sleep and will
convert it to speed and then I'm really in trouble
and i can't sleep. And I wanted to know if
(43:17):
he had any suggestions. I'm such a bizarre illness. Only
one percent of the people in the world have this disease,
and it's prominent in Naoshkenazi's youth population.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Does does that mean? And again, Betty, you're drifting in
out of me with this phone, with this own connection.
When you say one percent of people in the world,
does that mean also one percent of people in the
United States?
Speaker 8 (43:43):
Yes, the entirety, that would mean.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
That would mean about three point two million people. That's
a lot of people.
Speaker 8 (43:49):
Yeah, I've never before like Tina before me, she said,
you know, she's nocturnal. She stays, she's a person who sleeps.
I am a person that Right now, it's ten o'clock,
I'm tired, and if I take sleeping medicine, I won't
go to sleep till seven o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Now, I'm assuming that you have talked to other doctors
about this, and you're receiving medical care and attention for this. Correct.
Speaker 8 (44:21):
Oh, for years, I've been a mystery to them.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Yeah. What I would only say is that we hope
to have doctor Zeezler on again. If you wanted to
drop him a note. I can't tell you whether he
would respond to you. But he was a really interesting
interview and someone who was really able to explain, and
he listened to what people said. I was very impressed
with him, as I guess, so if you drop him
(44:48):
a note, yes.
Speaker 8 (44:50):
I was very impressed with him also. And my problem
is with the change of clops I just my body
just goes into whack mode. Sorry to say that. And
I don't sleep.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
It's a medical term. I mean, it's a technical medical
term that you're employed. Wow, so you can actually stay awake.
You're telling me four to eight days without sleep?
Speaker 8 (45:17):
Correct?
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Man? You should be like in the Special Forces. And
I mean I'm serious. I mean that would be a
tremendous talent to have. But boy, I can only tell
you that if you want to hold on. My producer,
Dan has a copy of our rundown. Dan, you could
(45:39):
dictate to to Betty his position as chair of the
Division of Sleep and sir Katie and disorders that bring
him to Women's hospital. And I'm sure that that if
you wrote him a note or left him a call,
I suspect he'd be interested in talking to you.
Speaker 8 (45:55):
I mean, seriously, I thank you, and I thank you
for my pink tie, my pink shirt.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Okay, it got delivered. That's good. Well, I hope you'll
wear it all right, Betty hold on uh. And and Dean,
my producer tonight, will give you his his title and
which portion of bring him to Women's he's associated with.
And I'm sure if you call or drop a note
(46:23):
uh and remind him that you didn't get a chance
to speak with him. But I think he'll be fascinated
by your situation, and I'm sure he will reach back
to you. I can't promise you that, but I'm virtually
certain that he will reach back to you because he
seems to be a real jumper.
Speaker 8 (46:36):
So it's interesting that when I go to a doctor
and I say, this is what I have to go?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
What is this?
Speaker 8 (46:45):
It's a sufficiency and I have to sit there and
give them the breakdown of this, And Howard.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I suspect, I don't suspect you'll have to give this
gentleman a breakdown. And also I want Dan to give
you the correct spelling of his last name. It's it's
c Z E I s I e R. So make
sure that Dan, Betty has the spelling uh and the
name of the Division of Brigham and Women so she
can track him down. Okay, And if you have problems,
thank you. Also give Betty my my direct phone number, Dan,
(47:19):
so if you have problems, I can try to reach
out for you.
Speaker 6 (47:21):
Okay, Thanks, thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Go ahead, do you take the call? Dan? Go ahead?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Let me go to Pat in Weymouth. Pat, you are
next on Nightside. Welcome. We're talking about sleep disorders and
sleeping and more importantly setting the clocks back this Saturday
night Sunday morning. What do you what do you think?
Speaker 8 (47:44):
Hi? Thanks for taking my call.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
You're welcome.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Pat.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
I have a situation that I think has been addressed
with the previous caller. And then I guess it was
Tina who also called. I am definitely a night howl.
I prefer the nighttime over the daytime. It's not unusual
(48:08):
at all. In fact, it's what I do each night
is I can go to sleep around two thirty three
o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Well, that's okay. We'll keep you company every night till midnight.
I promise you.
Speaker 8 (48:19):
I know, I know, I absolutely know that, because you
know I'm up and I enjoy it. I find things
to do, whatever it is, and then I do try
to get eight hours of sleep. So I'm setting my
alarm for like about eleven o'clock in the morning, and
(48:40):
I have room darkening shades.
Speaker 6 (48:42):
And how long?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
How long have you lived with that pattern? If I
could ask how long I would.
Speaker 8 (48:48):
Say, I would say that it's pretty much my whole life.
Except now I've been retired for about thirteen years. And
when I was working, I was living in Weymouth. I
had to work in Wallfam and I had to be
there at seven, So I was getting up at about
four or four thirty and then going, you know, so
(49:08):
I was going to bed. It was opposite from what
I really preferred.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
When I was working mornings in television from nineteen ninety
oh god, nineteen ninety five until two thousand and seven,
I was on those same roads at that hour of
the morning. I was four am to noon shift, the
night shift for many many years. But I've been able
(49:34):
to adapt my sleep pattern. There was a lot of
people I can remember when I was younger, I would
sleep until ten ten thirty on a Saturday or Sunday morning.
But now as you get older, I think it's a
little bit more difficult to sleep that length of time.
Speaker 8 (49:54):
But I don't know. I am no. I have no
problem going to sleep, no problem at all when I
go to bed, no problem at all.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
And then got your body on it. You got your
body in a cycle, and you keep that cycle. And
I assume you keep the cycle every day of the week.
It's the same every day, ansis during.
Speaker 6 (50:12):
The weekends, okay, every day of the week.
Speaker 8 (50:15):
And that's what I also caught the end of somebody's
conversation was the continuity of that might be a factor
exactly what you just said as opposed to premature deaths.
If I keep that pattern, because that's my preferred pattern,
and I can get up and you know, I get
(50:36):
about eight hours sleep and that's about it, and I
don't have to set an alarm. That's about the time
that I generally wake up what my body apparently needs.
And I get up and I do things, and you know,
I'm an active person. I am outside when I am awake,
and so I was just curious about I very.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Really by the way, use an alarm. I know I
have to be up because they have to be somewhere
for an employment. But most mornings I wake up, and
when I wake up and it's a little early, I'll
look at the clock and if it's five thirty and
I know the gym isn't even open until six, I'll
go back to sleep for an hour and I'll say that, Okay,
(51:17):
this is going to be an early gym day. Get
it out of the way. And basically, I adjust the
way to what my body wants me to do. And
it's worked pretty well for me, to be honest with you,
so I'm I'm not going to change it. I know,
I know, but I'll tell you this when I finished.
When I finished the show at midnight, and as you
probably know, I do what we call night side postgame.
(51:39):
I do a hit on Facebook at nightside with Dan
Ray and I don't know if you ever caught that,
but I do about ten minutes with a group of
people and kind of go over the show and what
I liked, what I didn't like about the show, and
then it takes me a little while. I just can't
go right to bed at twelve twenty. I mean I
have to kind of, you know, relax little bit. Sometimes
(52:01):
I'll just do a crossword puzzle or try to do
a crossword puzzle, and that'll put me to sleep, or
I'll try to read a little bit and that can
put me to sleep. So I was interested that doctor
Disease look talked about how that it's better to read
from a book, you know, on the printed page, than
it is to try to read from a tablet. And
I think a lot of that has to do with
some of the electronics.
Speaker 8 (52:22):
The Yeah, oh, I'd rather read a book, definitely, right.
And also and I don't want to keep down the
line too long. When it comes to making appointments, I
always try to schedule it. I want to clock to
a clock something like that in the afternoon because I
want to control. You know. There are times I can't
(52:44):
do that and I don't like it. I don't like it,
but I don't do it often and I try to
avoid it.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah. Well, I do the same thing, but I do
the opposite. So in other words, if I if I
have a doctor's appointment, I want to get it done early.
I don't want to hang it over my hand during
the day. It's a simple you know, give me eight thirty,
give me nine o'clock. If I have to weigh in
with awaken one eighty, whether I'm doing it remotely or
doing it in person, nine point fifteen, uh, and then
just get I don't want it to destroy the day.
It's as simple as that.
Speaker 8 (53:12):
Out say, for me, it would destroy the day to
get right.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
But but for me, I have to build my day.
For me, the worst things are something in the middle
of the day because I have to adjust when do
I get to go to the gym. We're all different.
We're all different, which is which is great. Pat. I
wish you had had called earlier. We could have got you.
Speaker 8 (53:33):
Happens is a.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Lot of people decide to call it a quarter of
and a quarter of the hour. And most of the
time we're having someone like you know, a physician. He's
got to get up in the morning too, so we
normally don't keep.
Speaker 8 (53:45):
Oh, I understand that.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
That's great. Well, Pat, thanks for calling. And if I
have I talked with you, be our first time.
Speaker 8 (53:52):
It's pretty much well, I won't say it is the
first time, but I haven't called in years.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Well, come on, you're you're you're up listening, come on,
help me out here. Okay. I always look at the
different points of view and different voices. Whatever we're talking.
Speaker 8 (54:07):
I'll call you so much that you'll be sorry to
hear from me.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
That's not that, that would never happen. Delightful, delightful, Thank you, pad,
I appreciate you.
Speaker 8 (54:16):
Going all right, Well, thank you for taking my call.
Speaker 6 (54:18):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
You're very welcome. Okay, coming back, we're going to take
a break. If you want to talk about sleep patterns,
I will give you to the bottom of the ar
if you want to get a call quickly in now,
and if not, when I come back, I'm going to
open up another conversation which I'm interested in, and that
deals with the decision of Stopping Shop to close eight supermarkets.
Stop and Shop is in what it used to be.
(54:40):
It is now owned, I believe, by a multinational company,
and I hate to see supermarkets go away because that
obviously is going to cause a problem for the communities
that are impacted. If you want to talk a little
bit more about sleep, feel free. If not, we'll talk
about the disappearing supermarkets which I don't and disappearing source,
(55:01):
which I don't think is a good thing. We'll be
back on Nightside right after this quick break
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