January 8, 2025 • 38 mins
The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled on a challenge to the controversial housing law, the MBTA Communities Act. The court ruled in favor of the state ruling the law is constitutional however the regulations are unenforceable and requested that the detailed zoning guidelines that shape the law be re-written. We discussed it with Denny Swenson, a local resident and Attorney Paul Hogan.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Costin's news
radio Try Well.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today, the Massachusetts State Supreme Court, in their infinite wisdom,
decided that the Massachusetts MBTA Communities Act is constitutional and
can be enforced by the Attorney General. But there was
a big caveat, and so a story that we have
(00:27):
covered now for well really just about a year has
reached the big fork in the road, and we have
two guests tonight who are going to talk about it.
One is Denny Swinson. She is a Milton resident. The
town of Milton is steadfast in its opposition to this
piece of legislation. This legislation which is imposing obligations on
(00:51):
one hundred and seventy seven communities are in Massachusetts, and
one of the attorneys on the case, Attorney Paul Hogan.
Denny Swinson, welcome to Nightside. You've been here before. Attorney
Paul Hogan. Welcome for your debut here on Nightside. How
are you this evening, Attorney Hogan.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I'm good, Dan, thank you, thank you for having me
on tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Okay, I'm going to get hi Danny. Okay, Attorney Hogan,
I get to you in a couple of seconds. I
want to start off with Denny Swinson. Danny, you have
articulated before Milton's concern and we know that Milton voters
not only have actually voted this, this a proposal cooperation
(01:38):
in position. Well, however you want to characterize it down
at the equivalent of a town meeting. But I think
you also, if I'm not mistaken, have changed the members
of the Bordist selectment a little bit. I mean, this
is a very important issue in the in the town
of Milton. Why is that? Can you just sum it
up what the opposition is and then I want to
(01:59):
talk to attorney about the implications of today's decision.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Oh sure, thank you so much for having us. Yes,
in Milton, we have been trying to work with the
state for years to address some of the issues that
are preventing us from meeting the goals of the legislation.
It really comes down to this one size fits all
approach does not work for Milton. And I'm learning from
(02:24):
over thirty other towns that they've been having the same
sort of hardship that Milton has been having in trying
to work through these guidelines. And you know, the headline
that I take away from reading the opinion and the
court order coming out of the SJAC today is that
(02:45):
Milton did not violate the law. Milton did not violate
the Act, and the state has been enforcing illegal guidelines.
I think those are the biggest takeaways for me. And
you know, I think one of the key sentences is
in the conclusion that the hlc's current guidelines were not
(03:06):
promulgated in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act. And I'm
quoting this from the s jc's conclusion, we declare them
ineffective and as such, presently unenforceable. I think this is
really big news, and I'm happy to share it with
you tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I appreciate that so, Attorney counselor I look at this
situation as a political effort. This this is going to
benefit developers, and developers support politicians. And I know that
it passed while Governor Baker was our governor and it
(03:45):
is being implemented by Governor Healy. But this, to me,
I always thought, and I am not I'm a lawyer,
but I'm not at your level in terms of this case. Certainly,
I all we thought that zoning provisions were sort of
sacro saycd H and that as long as communities applied
(04:07):
them fairly, meaning they did not discriminate against people and
know its constitutional rights were violated, a community could decide
what type of zoning they wanted. Now, if Beacon Hill
wants to tell every town in Massachusetts that they need
a bowling alley and arcade and three golf courses, what's
(04:29):
the difference.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, I think that's a great point, Dan, and you know,
you are right. Zoning has always been sort of the
primary the power was with the local communities outside of
being an attorney. You know, I was the political head
of the Watertown government and we rezoned that town. So
(04:55):
zoning was always the purview of the local communities here.
You know, I think think you talk about a political view.
There seems to be this great desire to just increase housing,
but there's a danger that, you know, the ends just
they think the ends justify the means, and they bypass
(05:15):
the requirements for these kinds of rules. I mean, they
just really bypass the Administrative Procedure Act. I represent fourteen
small businesses. They're really severely impacted by these regulations, and
for whatever reason, it seems like that the agency just
(05:36):
didn't seem to value or care about these particular requirements
from the Administrative Procedure Act.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Are those fourteen small businesses spread out amongst one hundred
and seventy seven communities. Are they all primarily located in Milton?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
They are not?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Actually, I believe that I'm this counted.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I think that seventeen businesses Milton won a Branks, one
in Quinsey and one in Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Gotch.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You need to have ten businesses for this type of challenge.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
You know, the Supreme Judicial Court ask for amaricus.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Briefs back in March of this year, and these small
businesses got together and they had ME prepared a brief
for them, citing the lack of attention to the requirements
from the Administrative Procedure Act about small businesses.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Okay, Now, today the governor celebrated the decision and said
that these guidelines would be written and in place and
effective by Friday. Tomorrow's a holiday, federal holiday, as I recall,
And to me, that seems to be somewhat ambitious. And
I assume that whatever is written and presented will ultimately
(06:54):
also be litigated or would I be wrong on that.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Counselor well, it certainly would be the kid, because what's required,
Dan is that they're supposed to develop a plan for
small business.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And hold hearings, and you're not going to.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Have a meaning co hearing by Friday. So it seems instance.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Here and not really valuing what happened today.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I agree with Day.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I mean, the governor and Attorney General seem to celebrate
the decision, but really the Supreme Judicial Court came down
and said that these these regulations are no good, not unfortuable.
So that's a that's a full stop, and I think
they have to return to the detailed procedures of the
Administrative Procedure Act.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay, we are we're talking about a decision today by
the Massachusetts States Supreme Court. I know that if you
continue to listen, folks will get you up to speed.
Her My guests Denny Swinson, a Milton resident who is
very much opposed to this. She's in the majority within
the town of Milton, and also Attorney Paul Hogan, who
is representing some seventeen small businesses. Fourteen of these businesses
(08:04):
are in Milton, but three others are in other communities
here in Massachusetts. And we're going to just talk about
this with them a little bit more briefly, a little
bit on the other side, but I invite you to
call and whether you live in Milton or in any
of the other one hundred and seventy seven communities, some
(08:25):
of which have actual NBTA service and some of which
are merely contiguous to towns that have NBTA service, and
another set of communities are contiguous to the towns that
are directly contiguous. So it's it's complicated, and we'll try
to keep it straight for you. And if you'd like
(08:45):
to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty,
we get to as many calls, as many points of
view as possible right here on Nightside. After a couple
of very quick messages.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
We're talking with the two guests about the MBTA Communities Act.
Now again, the Healthy Administration is celebrating this as they
would you would think it as a total victory. But
my guest, Danny Swanson, who is from Milton, and Attorney
Paul Hogan see it quite differently, very quickly, if I could,
Denny and I want to get to as many phone
(09:28):
calls as possible amongst your supporters in Milton and in
other communities today. What's been the reaction to this decision
as it's been reported. Do you think people understand the
how that it has been reported, perhaps not as accurately
as it should be.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
That's a great question, Dan, I've been following this, you know,
Milton's been the citizen of Milton. I've been working really
hard on this for a couple of years now, and
I really feel like, you know, a year ago, Milton
was catching up with a lot of the issues that
are before us. And now, you know, in the last year,
I've seen the other towns sort of catching up. I
(10:10):
really saw a lot of momentum building in September and
through the fall when things had to come to a
vote to town meeting, you just saw the learning curve
just keep going at a pretty good clip. The momentum.
You know, the citizens seem to have the momentum on
this one. Now.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Attorney Hogan, do you think that the court I was
not in court for the arguments that I'm sure you
were involved in quite heavily. Do you think that the judges,
the justices on the State Supreme Court understood the implications
of this act as it has been constructed, meaning yeah,
(10:52):
everybody wants to see more housing, great, but to basically
impose it and relate it to the MBTA, the implications
for a lot of these communities is going to be
an explosion in the number of kids they haven't that
they will have to educate publicly in public schools. That's
going to mean more teacher, is going to mean perhaps
(11:14):
more buildings. I mean, there's some economic consequences down the
line here above and beyond more housing units in the community,
there's some financial implications and the judges. Did the justices
seem to either address that or be aware of that
or was that even a factor in the arguments of
the briefs?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, I did this fine point at the end of
the decision. It's not just a small business impact plan
wasn't developed. The law requires that they also do a
fiscal analysis both for the first year, second year, and
then for five years. So the agency should have done
(11:56):
a fiscal analysis about the impact of this project in
the first year, second in five years. And you're absolutely right.
I mean, here, you know the impact on the police
and fire, the need for more people. That there was
talking Milton that we would need a new fire station
for twenty five hundred more units in the East Milton area.
(12:18):
The water and sewer is already its limit, you know.
The schools, as you mentioned, they're talking about building a
six school here already in Builton. They did mention sort
of in the last page that one of the requirements
of the administrative procedure at the so called APA is
(12:39):
that you'll file a fiscal statement. So the justices did
at least acknowledge that to your point, But I don't
think overall in the big body the decision because one
of the reasons I'm on tonight is because the brief
that the small businesses filed was the one that really
was the slice that calls the court to say that
(13:02):
the regulations can't be enforced. But there are other parts
of the brief, and Denny was working on this with
a lot of people that really talked about the impact,
and I think the court missed it there. I think
the court doesn't seem to grasp or what a terrific
impact this would have on some communities and parts of
(13:23):
our committee here in Milton.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The court also did not I read the decision. I
didn't read it as I would. I mean, I read
it carefully, but I like to read decisions three or
four times carefully. I didn't see that they talked much
about the penalties that are associated with this law. They
talked a lot about whether or not the Attorney General
could enforce the law, and by implication, I guess the
(13:47):
funding that Milton residents and resident taxpayers would be deprived of,
or any community would be deprived of. It's very much
a carrot and a stick. Not only will we hit
you over the head with the stick, but we'll also
you're not going to get any of these carrots. And
(14:08):
these are tax dollars that people have in Milton and
elsewhere paid into the state. The court didn't seem to
go into that in much much depth or detail. Or
did I miss it?
Speaker 7 (14:20):
I'm go ahead, I answering, Oh no, I noticed something.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
It's interesting. In the final footnote number twenty three, it
says I'm trying to boil it down for you, but
as HLC will need to promulgate guidelines consistent with the
administrative procedural requirements, those new guidelines may differ from the
ones presently in place. We need not reach whether the
existing guidelines are consistent with the Act. So in other words,
(14:48):
it's like the justices are acknowledging we're not going to
evaluate whether or not the penalties that the that the
guidelines continually added on too are consistent, because we've already
told you the guidelines are unenforceable and therefore they're going
(15:11):
to need to be repromulgated, and therefore therefore we're not
going to evaluate them. We're just telling you. Yeah, that's
the way that I read that footnote. I thought that
was interesting because, as you might recall, Dan, it started
out in the Legislative Act as four funds that towns
would opt out of, in effect, if they didn't do
(15:33):
what they would lose those four funds. And then as
as we went through our year, Milton went through our
year and finally got to tail meetings, the guidelines, we're
adding additional funds, and it went from four to seven,
to thirteen, and then it got up to twenty by
the you know, it just kept growing. So those those
guidelines that were added are not enforceable, so they're they're
(15:59):
not gonna, you know, find a decision on whether or
not they were consistent.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's like saying that you've been convicted of something
and the penalty calls for, you know, two to three years,
but we're going to hit you with twelve twelve, twelve
years or twenty years, whatever we might decide to do.
It seems a little unfair. Council. A quick comment on you,
do you read that the same way as as Denny
reads it.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I do. And there was some talk in the decision
that Milton had said, well, you know, we can opt
out and not get these funds. But there was you know,
not clear to me executing what the what the ESJC
was saying that what what are the enforcement actions I
guess requiring the town to create this zoning district. It
(16:48):
seems unclear that there was any anything there at all.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, I think the reference was that that they could
be enforcement inequity, and I don't, frankly, frankly understand what
they mean by that. I do understand what equity means
as opposed to at law, but it was there were
there were some holes in the decision. So we'll we'll see.
We're going to get to phone calls. Denny an attorney hole,
and I hope you both can stay there six one, seven, two, five, four,
(17:16):
ten thirty. Those lines are full. However, if you want
to take advantage of a couple of lines one other
line six one seven, nine three one, ten thirty, we
would get as many people in as possible, not looking
for speeches, looking either for questions or or or sixcinct
comments as to how you feel about not only today's decision,
but this MBTA Communities Act in general. It was interesting today.
(17:39):
I was reading one press release from the Pioneer Institute
and they they're thrilled about it. And that's a very
interesting organization. It's generally a very free market type organization,
almost a libertarian aspect, and it's it was interesting to
see the Pioneer Institute come down in favor of the
Court's decision today. But that's that's a side note that
(18:02):
I won't ask you guys about. We'll just take a
quick break here for some news and get the phone
calls right after the break. I think it's an important
issue because it really does talk about how much again
absent some constitutional deprivation. Obviously, none of these communities are
being accused of compromising or denying any individual or group
(18:24):
of individuals their rights. To move into their communities. This
is not a redlining sort of case. This is like
do it our way or the highway, and I just
don't like that tone coming from Beacon Hill as a citizen.
That's all. We'll be back on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
If you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w
B Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
We're ready to go to phones. My guest Denny Swans Swinson.
She is a Milton resident who has been in the
forefront of this fight against the MVTA Communities Act, And
when I say against it, I think she's willing to
cooperate as long as the state makes clear what is
involved and just doesn't steamroll the community. That a fear characterization.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Denny, Yes, that is that's that's fair. I think there,
you know, there's a middle ground to be had and
I am hopeful that we can take this opportunity to
create an avenue, you know, talk through the tough issues,
and there are tough issues in each town. In Milton,
it's the misclassification of rapid transit. But as you know
(19:31):
from having you know shows on this in another town,
it's a safe access in and out, or in many
towns it's the lack of hospital care or access to
a hospital. In another town, I was talking to a
farming community. They have serious concerns about not having enough
water or access to underground water. They're a farming community,
(19:52):
and there is no avenue to talk with the state.
The state is totally insensitive to this part of their concern. So,
you know, I talked to residents all the time and
people from other towns, and there just needs to be
an avenue for our towns to be able to address
our concerns and to work together, you know, to find
(20:15):
a middle ground and to find solutions.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Let's try to find some solutions with our callers. We
have attorney Paul Hogan here who's representing small businesses about
seventeen small businesses, and Denny Swinson, who is an activist.
I think she were now a community activist in Milton.
Let's go to a couple of callers from Milton. Let
me go first to Kerry, who's calling in for Milton. Carry.
You are first this hour and night side with Denny
(20:40):
Swinson and also attorney Paul Hogan. What's your question of comment?
Speaker 8 (20:42):
Carrie Hi Dan, thanks for taking my call. Happy New
Year and happy eighteenth anniversary. Thank you for taking the call.
I appreciate you covering this topic because you're really one
of the few people who has been very helpful and
relentless in covering and uncovering I think kind of the
(21:04):
root cause of what's going on behind here. As you
have said a couple of times on your program, previous programs,
not tonight, follow the money, right, there's a lot of
things going on here.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Money. There's no doubt about that, Yeah.
Speaker 8 (21:19):
No doubt, no doubt. Yes, yes, absolutely, any good reporter
knows that, right, And I really appreciated hearing Attorney Hogan
come now and also speak about some of the important
points about that lack of consideration of small businesses. And
that's not just an issue here in Milton, but that's
an issue that I hear from many people in a
(21:40):
number of other communities, including Marshfield where I grew up.
It's an issue, and it's switch it's an issue in
many of the other towns. Are having the same hands
that some of the towns that are grappling with the
same issues.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
That we are.
Speaker 8 (21:54):
And as you accurately reported, you know, of course, this
is sort of a battle for the freedom of our
rights and when you speak about this here we are
this will be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Lessington,
(22:15):
Massachusetts is the birthplace of if you will are independence
from tyranny. I feel like this is a somewhat tyrannicle, tyrannical,
you know, ruth somewhat against many of our towns. Then
we're all trying to do good things about providing housing, homes,
(22:36):
you know, everything that we can. Janny brings up a
lot of great points. But my question really to Governor
Haley if she would ever take a question from me.
I have loved in many you know, emails through her portal.
If the law is truly aimed at addressing the regional
housing crisis, then why is she at the same time
(22:59):
filling up our precious few spaces for emergency housing for
citizens battling you know, homelessness, addiction, the danger of the
streets and places like mass and cats, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, with illegal aliens. And it's sort of seems
kind of ironic. Maybe, I don't know, strange that this
(23:22):
ruling came out today. I didn't know. I don't know
if Attorney Hogan or Denny expected this would come out today.
I was surprised. Maybe I'm just missing it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well, you never know. The State Supreme Court issues rulings
on their own schedule. Trust me on that.
Speaker 8 (23:36):
They yeah, no, no, you're right, Dan, I.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Realized that, Well, we'll just leave that question. I don't
want to go off into a different question. Well, we
can leave the questions like that, but let's if either
Denny or Attorney Hogan want to address it, they can,
but we can leave it as a rhetorical question, or
you can comment on or Attorney Hogan.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Thank you, Erry, Thank you any Hogan. I think it
is more of a rhetorical question, but it is. It's
a good point. I mean, if we have this type
of housing crisis, it's driving them to bypass the Administrative
Procedure Act. Why are we using up these other resources?
(24:28):
Uh for people that way?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Okay, all right, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Gary,
will we talk again, Thank you, Thank you, great night.
Let me go next to Mark is in Milton as well.
Mark next on Nsich. Go right ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Hey, Dan, thank you so much, and thank you for
being the person over the course of the past year
or so has put some light on this topic. Very
few of the media outlets are covering this in an
embiased manner. To say the least, I'm calling in to
support my good friend Denny Swinson. I've been one of
her foot soldiers, got to know her through all this,
and really have enjoyed working with Denny. She kind of
(25:03):
lit the match under this whole thing, which I think
in the big picture has really gotten a lot of
people across the state and the effected communities really to
wake up and start to question these decisions in our government,
the rubber stamping going on by this legislature, the rule
by fiat which seems to be taking place from Healey,
(25:24):
I'll leave my comments brief, but what just kind of
strikes me is the insincerity and in disingenuous. Even at
the break up at the top of the hour, you
had comments from Andrea Campbell saying she wants to work
and is willing to listen from day one, and I've
been involved with this over a year now with Denny.
When we've pleaded, and Denny has pleaded to talk to
(25:44):
the Lieutenant Governor and the governor and Drisco. They stone Wall,
this community did not even want to hear our concerns.
There was a meeting here the night before the town
wide vote that Lieutenant Governor Driscoll was on and people
who were not identified, as you know, huge supporters of
the MBT act were forcibly taken out of the meeting,
(26:07):
not let in to enter because they were so afraid
of having any questions or dialogue. So the fact that
Campbell and Heally and Driscoll are all saying that they
want to talk with communities, so far they've shown nothing
but contempt for communities. And you know, a final point here,
this governor just seems to have no accountability to anybody,
for constituents. I've never seen a politician who who wants
(26:29):
to go to war with the people who pay the
taxes like she has. The SJC. Now she seems to
have contempt for by saying, but you know, they issued
this order saying that basically go back to the drawing
cord and you know, you know, make these guidelines properly instituted.
And she's saying, well, we'll have new ones by Friday. Well,
where's the hearing's going to take place by Friday? Like
(26:51):
like she she seems to be out of control. And
the fact that finally, she you know, is spinning. This
is this huge win for her or whatever. Hey, who knows,
she rules by fiat, so she missed. She might not
pay attention to anything anybody else says. But her administration
seems to be entering a death spiral. Between the Stuart
healthcare debacle, the immigration debacle, the billions of dollars that's
(27:16):
you know, coming to cost us now another four and
twenty five million dollars. She's begging the legislature for the
Bluehill Capital cronyism scandal, which you know, kind of got
swept under the rug her, you know, wiping away her
her friends there and making sure they're not held accountable.
And the eleven percent pay rate pay raise for the legislature.
So she she needs to win, and she's gonna take
She's gonna take her pound of flesh out of Milton. Apparently,
(27:38):
I see no evidence that she or anybody else in
that administration or the legislation of that matter of fact,
will pay any heed to having any meaningful dialogue with
with these communities, including Milton and all the others. I
hope they do. But hooray for Denny. We got to
win today. They can call it anything they want, but
they're supposed to go back to the drawing board now
(27:58):
and give towns a little bit of input and impact studies.
We'll see if they do it. But thank you so
much Dan for the call, and thank you Dan.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Okay, you're welcome. Mark. I appreciate certainly something doing something
new rules, promulgation of regulations by Friday. That seems a
bit rushed. Well, we lost Paul there for a second.
Paul very quick comment to Mark's point, which I'd like
you to reinforce the administration basically saying, hey, we'll just
(28:25):
write some new rules by Friday and everything's honky. Dori,
I don't see that being possible.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
That's just in genuine I mean it's absolutely impossible. Hearings,
you know, have to be scheduled usually ninety or one
hundred and twenty days out front doing a fiscal study
of the impact on communities for the first year, second year,
and five year. I mean that takes months, probably takes
a third party, large accounting management firm doing a small business.
(28:54):
I mean absolutely, Dan, I mean when I heard that,
I was like, what, because you know what the point
was is that the SJAC while they opened the door
and said you have the right to make this law.
They said, these guidelines that these regulations have to have
to go away and you have to start from scratch.
(29:14):
But again it looked, it seems to that they never
really appreciated the requirements that they have to undertake to
issue these regulations, and it was really kind of a
stunning statement.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
All right, we've got to take a quick break. We're
going to be back with more phone calls here on
Nightside with my guest Dennysewinson, a Milton resident and attorney
Paul Hogan and represents about seventeen small businesses impacted adversely
potentially by the MBTA Communities Act, and feel free to
join this conversation where I've got one line opened six one,
seven thirty b right back on night Side.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Now back to Dan Ray line from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
We have pack lines, so I'm going to ask everybody
if they can, in deference to everyone else, to try
to be as concise as possible. Greg and Shrewsbury. Greg,
you're next on Nightside with Denny Swinson of Milton, attorney
Paul Hogan.
Speaker 7 (30:06):
Go right ahead, great, yeah, yeah, yeah, My question is
as follows. We have a referendum election on the fourth,
and I think people are minimizing the guidelines. I mean
the guidelines. I think of the meat of three A.
We look at what the compliant deadline was, the number
of units required, which is the biggest impact to the community,
So for us fifteen hundred units, the fact that they
(30:27):
even classify somebody like Shrewsbury's an adjacent community. So I'm
really trying to find out why, right what our community
not vote know now, considering we have on the table
a proposal that went through town meeting for a zone
that is compliant to nothing, because if those compliants guidelines
that's I'm missing something are gone. I see no reason
(30:49):
for our town to move forward with adopting a zone
when we have no idea of what we have to
comply with.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Okay, let's get Attorney Hogan to briefly respond to that concerned.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Attorney Hogan, I think that's a legitimate concern. I mean,
the regulations that were presented by the agency have been
stricken by the Supreme Judicial Court, so I think the
process should start again, that new regulations have to be prepared,
(31:19):
and you shouldn't go through the process and the other
cities in town should not be proceeding on the current regulations. Greg,
exactly how I see it.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great question, great answer, right to the point. Greg, keep
us posted on Shrewsbury.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Will you absolutely I'm well there?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
All right?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thanks, thanks very much. Let me go next to Rita
in Boston. Rita you and next on nights. I got
to be quick for me. Please read it.
Speaker 9 (31:47):
Go right ahead, Okay, I'll try. I'm a little The
only way I know about this subject is through your program,
because I can't get a buster paper anywhere in Boston.
But does the mbt A, it's called the mass Bay
Transportation Authority. Do they go throughout the state of Massachusetts
(32:11):
like through the Pioneer Valley.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
No, they serve one hundred and arguably one hundred and
seventy seven communities. These are communities basically eastern Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (32:24):
It's been available for this law that's been crafted for everyone.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
They want to oppose this law on one hundred and
seventy seven communities either that have an MBTA service, or
communities that contiguous to communities that have MBTA service, or
even communities who are two communities away. A sort of
contiguously contiguous.
Speaker 9 (32:47):
Like down to the Fall River, or.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You have to look at the map and break down
all the towns for you. But it's pretty much in Massachusetts.
The one exception is the city Boston. They are not
impacted by this. The community's more MBT service here. Yeah,
fair enough, Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:13):
It just seems that imposing these so called solutions on
these communities is terrible.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's that's that's the sense of that's my sense of it.
I think it's unfair because I think local communities. The
one right that local communities have is to zwe if
so if they don't want to have ten liquor stores
in in in Wellesley, they can do that. I don't
even think Wellesley has a liquor store. As a matter
of fact. I think that's part of the You got
to go to Natick if you want to find a
(33:41):
package store still, I believe.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
And then you've got to deal with developers who want
to put in these big, ugly, horrible buildings, you know,
these concrete blocks. You know, it's just not right.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Rita, I gotta let you run because I got four
more behind you. Thank you, Thank you much appreciate your call.
Thank you Okay, great night, good night. Let me go
to Brian and Milton. Brian Wilton's dominating our calls here,
you go right.
Speaker 10 (34:03):
Ahead, Thank you for having me on my concern. You
see in the news that we lost because of the
constitutionality was held by the court. Well, I look at
it completely differently. You see, the constitutionality of the original
law that was written and by the legislature is fine.
(34:24):
It's when the guidelines were promulgated that screwed it all up.
So our concern was the constitutionality of the guidelines not
given towns of voice, and that that's why I believe
Milton won today with the leadership of Dennis Winston. I
also find that the governor and the age are both
just ingenuous about this whole thing. They didn't try to
(34:46):
work with the town, and now to try to have
an emergency act this weekend, it's almost like they avoided
the law in the first place, the SJAC called them
out on it, and now they're trying to avoid the
law again by declaring some kind of housing emergency so
that they can force uh new laws or guidelines on
(35:07):
us without legislature approval. So it's just and then when
they talk about all these towns that have complied, they
forget to mention that they had a gun in their head.
You know, if you put a gun to my head,
I would go along with anything you asked of.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Me, so particularly if that gun is loaded.
Speaker 10 (35:26):
Agreed. They were forced to agree because they were afraid
of what was going to happen to them.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And Brian, I think you're you're you're agreeing with everybody
on the panel here and with your host. Uh and
I thank you for your call, but I want to
get to a couple more folks, and I hope you'll
appreciate us. We're gonna we will stick on this topic. Okay,
thank you very much. We'll go now one more in Milton.
(35:51):
Andrea is in Milton Andrea. You're next on Nights Side.
You're own Denny Swanson and Attorney Paul Hogan, go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Hi, thank you, Dan. Can you hear me?
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Okay?
Speaker 11 (36:04):
With all my might, I will avoid various aspects of
this discussion, but at the end of as someone who
lives in East Melton and has been at Anny side
with huge appreciation for what she's done and her dedication,
(36:24):
I just want to reflect on outside of anybody's opinion
of what the decision actually meant today that in this
time that that citizens voted, know, there's been so much
more awareness across towns across the state that one of
it happened. You know, it's very hard for people to
(36:47):
know what's going on at all times when things are
just kind of swept through, and so I'm very grateful
to the town, most especially to Denny for drawing attention
to it, because whatever it means to redraft the guidelines,
which I think is a bigger deal than most are
given credit to.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I hate to do this to you. I hate to
do this to you, but we're flat running out of time,
and that's the problem with sometimes when the ten o'clock
hour draws near. So I think you've made your point.
I think you've made it well. Hats off to Denny Swanson,
and hats off also to Attorney Paul Hogan. And let
us hope that through programs like this, people will understand
(37:30):
exactly what happened today. Andrea, thank you for your call
very much.
Speaker 8 (37:35):
Thank you, Dan, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Denny Swatson, thank you for your continued commitment. Attorney Hogan,
thank you very much for appearing tonight in the quot
of public opinion, which I think is a very important
court room if you get mine.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Thank you, Dan, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You're very welcome again. The quote of public opinion is
one that I think may may sway the day here.
We'll see what happens eventually. Both viewer welcome to come
back anytime. Thank you both very much for what you're doing. Well,
take a break. When we get back on the other
side of the nine o'clock news, we are going to
talk with Todd Lyons, the National Assistant Director of Ice,
(38:13):
and talk about maybe what's on the horizon with the
change of administration in terms of immigrants who are here
who have broken the law, in what their fate will be.
Back on night's side right after the ten o'clock news,
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Costin's news
radio Try Well.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today, the Massachusetts State Supreme Court, in their infinite wisdom,
decided that the Massachusetts MBTA Communities Act is constitutional and
can be enforced by the Attorney General. But there was
a big caveat, and so a story that we have
(00:27):
covered now for well really just about a year has
reached the big fork in the road, and we have
two guests tonight who are going to talk about it.
One is Denny Swinson. She is a Milton resident. The
town of Milton is steadfast in its opposition to this
piece of legislation. This legislation which is imposing obligations on
(00:51):
one hundred and seventy seven communities are in Massachusetts, and
one of the attorneys on the case, Attorney Paul Hogan.
Denny Swinson, welcome to Nightside. You've been here before. Attorney
Paul Hogan. Welcome for your debut here on Nightside. How
are you this evening, Attorney Hogan.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I'm good, Dan, thank you, thank you for having me
on tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Okay, I'm going to get hi Danny. Okay, Attorney Hogan,
I get to you in a couple of seconds. I
want to start off with Denny Swinson. Danny, you have
articulated before Milton's concern and we know that Milton voters
not only have actually voted this, this a proposal cooperation
(01:38):
in position. Well, however you want to characterize it down
at the equivalent of a town meeting. But I think
you also, if I'm not mistaken, have changed the members
of the Bordist selectment a little bit. I mean, this
is a very important issue in the in the town
of Milton. Why is that? Can you just sum it
up what the opposition is and then I want to
(01:59):
talk to attorney about the implications of today's decision.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Oh sure, thank you so much for having us. Yes,
in Milton, we have been trying to work with the
state for years to address some of the issues that
are preventing us from meeting the goals of the legislation.
It really comes down to this one size fits all
approach does not work for Milton. And I'm learning from
(02:24):
over thirty other towns that they've been having the same
sort of hardship that Milton has been having in trying
to work through these guidelines. And you know, the headline
that I take away from reading the opinion and the
court order coming out of the SJAC today is that
(02:45):
Milton did not violate the law. Milton did not violate
the Act, and the state has been enforcing illegal guidelines.
I think those are the biggest takeaways for me. And
you know, I think one of the key sentences is
in the conclusion that the hlc's current guidelines were not
(03:06):
promulgated in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act. And I'm
quoting this from the s jc's conclusion, we declare them
ineffective and as such, presently unenforceable. I think this is
really big news, and I'm happy to share it with
you tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I appreciate that so, Attorney counselor I look at this
situation as a political effort. This this is going to
benefit developers, and developers support politicians. And I know that
it passed while Governor Baker was our governor and it
(03:45):
is being implemented by Governor Healy. But this, to me,
I always thought, and I am not I'm a lawyer,
but I'm not at your level in terms of this case. Certainly,
I all we thought that zoning provisions were sort of
sacro saycd H and that as long as communities applied
(04:07):
them fairly, meaning they did not discriminate against people and
know its constitutional rights were violated, a community could decide
what type of zoning they wanted. Now, if Beacon Hill
wants to tell every town in Massachusetts that they need
a bowling alley and arcade and three golf courses, what's
(04:29):
the difference.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, I think that's a great point, Dan, and you know,
you are right. Zoning has always been sort of the
primary the power was with the local communities outside of
being an attorney. You know, I was the political head
of the Watertown government and we rezoned that town. So
(04:55):
zoning was always the purview of the local communities here.
You know, I think think you talk about a political view.
There seems to be this great desire to just increase housing,
but there's a danger that, you know, the ends just
they think the ends justify the means, and they bypass
(05:15):
the requirements for these kinds of rules. I mean, they
just really bypass the Administrative Procedure Act. I represent fourteen
small businesses. They're really severely impacted by these regulations, and
for whatever reason, it seems like that the agency just
(05:36):
didn't seem to value or care about these particular requirements
from the Administrative Procedure Act.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Are those fourteen small businesses spread out amongst one hundred
and seventy seven communities. Are they all primarily located in Milton?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
They are not?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Actually, I believe that I'm this counted.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I think that seventeen businesses Milton won a Branks, one
in Quinsey and one in Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Gotch.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You need to have ten businesses for this type of challenge.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
You know, the Supreme Judicial Court ask for amaricus.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Briefs back in March of this year, and these small
businesses got together and they had ME prepared a brief
for them, citing the lack of attention to the requirements
from the Administrative Procedure Act about small businesses.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Okay, Now, today the governor celebrated the decision and said
that these guidelines would be written and in place and
effective by Friday. Tomorrow's a holiday, federal holiday, as I recall,
And to me, that seems to be somewhat ambitious. And
I assume that whatever is written and presented will ultimately
(06:54):
also be litigated or would I be wrong on that.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Counselor well, it certainly would be the kid, because what's required,
Dan is that they're supposed to develop a plan for
small business.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And hold hearings, and you're not going to.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Have a meaning co hearing by Friday. So it seems instance.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Here and not really valuing what happened today.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I agree with Day.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I mean, the governor and Attorney General seem to celebrate
the decision, but really the Supreme Judicial Court came down
and said that these these regulations are no good, not unfortuable.
So that's a that's a full stop, and I think
they have to return to the detailed procedures of the
Administrative Procedure Act.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay, we are we're talking about a decision today by
the Massachusetts States Supreme Court. I know that if you
continue to listen, folks will get you up to speed.
Her My guests Denny Swinson, a Milton resident who is
very much opposed to this. She's in the majority within
the town of Milton, and also Attorney Paul Hogan, who
is representing some seventeen small businesses. Fourteen of these businesses
(08:04):
are in Milton, but three others are in other communities
here in Massachusetts. And we're going to just talk about
this with them a little bit more briefly, a little
bit on the other side, but I invite you to
call and whether you live in Milton or in any
of the other one hundred and seventy seven communities, some
(08:25):
of which have actual NBTA service and some of which
are merely contiguous to towns that have NBTA service, and
another set of communities are contiguous to the towns that
are directly contiguous. So it's it's complicated, and we'll try
to keep it straight for you. And if you'd like
(08:45):
to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty,
we get to as many calls, as many points of
view as possible right here on Nightside. After a couple
of very quick messages.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
We're talking with the two guests about the MBTA Communities Act.
Now again, the Healthy Administration is celebrating this as they
would you would think it as a total victory. But
my guest, Danny Swanson, who is from Milton, and Attorney
Paul Hogan see it quite differently, very quickly, if I could,
Denny and I want to get to as many phone
(09:28):
calls as possible amongst your supporters in Milton and in
other communities today. What's been the reaction to this decision
as it's been reported. Do you think people understand the
how that it has been reported, perhaps not as accurately
as it should be.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
That's a great question, Dan, I've been following this, you know,
Milton's been the citizen of Milton. I've been working really
hard on this for a couple of years now, and
I really feel like, you know, a year ago, Milton
was catching up with a lot of the issues that
are before us. And now, you know, in the last year,
I've seen the other towns sort of catching up. I
(10:10):
really saw a lot of momentum building in September and
through the fall when things had to come to a
vote to town meeting, you just saw the learning curve
just keep going at a pretty good clip. The momentum.
You know, the citizens seem to have the momentum on
this one. Now.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Attorney Hogan, do you think that the court I was
not in court for the arguments that I'm sure you
were involved in quite heavily. Do you think that the judges,
the justices on the State Supreme Court understood the implications
of this act as it has been constructed, meaning yeah,
(10:52):
everybody wants to see more housing, great, but to basically
impose it and relate it to the MBTA, the implications
for a lot of these communities is going to be
an explosion in the number of kids they haven't that
they will have to educate publicly in public schools. That's
going to mean more teacher, is going to mean perhaps
(11:14):
more buildings. I mean, there's some economic consequences down the
line here above and beyond more housing units in the community,
there's some financial implications and the judges. Did the justices
seem to either address that or be aware of that
or was that even a factor in the arguments of
the briefs?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, I did this fine point at the end of
the decision. It's not just a small business impact plan
wasn't developed. The law requires that they also do a
fiscal analysis both for the first year, second year, and
then for five years. So the agency should have done
(11:56):
a fiscal analysis about the impact of this project in
the first year, second in five years. And you're absolutely right.
I mean, here, you know the impact on the police
and fire, the need for more people. That there was
talking Milton that we would need a new fire station
for twenty five hundred more units in the East Milton area.
(12:18):
The water and sewer is already its limit, you know.
The schools, as you mentioned, they're talking about building a
six school here already in Builton. They did mention sort
of in the last page that one of the requirements
of the administrative procedure at the so called APA is
(12:39):
that you'll file a fiscal statement. So the justices did
at least acknowledge that to your point, But I don't
think overall in the big body the decision because one
of the reasons I'm on tonight is because the brief
that the small businesses filed was the one that really
was the slice that calls the court to say that
(13:02):
the regulations can't be enforced. But there are other parts
of the brief, and Denny was working on this with
a lot of people that really talked about the impact,
and I think the court missed it there. I think
the court doesn't seem to grasp or what a terrific
impact this would have on some communities and parts of
(13:23):
our committee here in Milton.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The court also did not I read the decision. I
didn't read it as I would. I mean, I read
it carefully, but I like to read decisions three or
four times carefully. I didn't see that they talked much
about the penalties that are associated with this law. They
talked a lot about whether or not the Attorney General
could enforce the law, and by implication, I guess the
(13:47):
funding that Milton residents and resident taxpayers would be deprived of,
or any community would be deprived of. It's very much
a carrot and a stick. Not only will we hit
you over the head with the stick, but we'll also
you're not going to get any of these carrots. And
(14:08):
these are tax dollars that people have in Milton and
elsewhere paid into the state. The court didn't seem to
go into that in much much depth or detail. Or
did I miss it?
Speaker 7 (14:20):
I'm go ahead, I answering, Oh no, I noticed something.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
It's interesting. In the final footnote number twenty three, it
says I'm trying to boil it down for you, but
as HLC will need to promulgate guidelines consistent with the
administrative procedural requirements, those new guidelines may differ from the
ones presently in place. We need not reach whether the
existing guidelines are consistent with the Act. So in other words,
(14:48):
it's like the justices are acknowledging we're not going to
evaluate whether or not the penalties that the that the
guidelines continually added on too are consistent, because we've already
told you the guidelines are unenforceable and therefore they're going
(15:11):
to need to be repromulgated, and therefore therefore we're not
going to evaluate them. We're just telling you. Yeah, that's
the way that I read that footnote. I thought that
was interesting because, as you might recall, Dan, it started
out in the Legislative Act as four funds that towns
would opt out of, in effect, if they didn't do
(15:33):
what they would lose those four funds. And then as
as we went through our year, Milton went through our
year and finally got to tail meetings, the guidelines, we're
adding additional funds, and it went from four to seven,
to thirteen, and then it got up to twenty by
the you know, it just kept growing. So those those
guidelines that were added are not enforceable, so they're they're
(15:59):
not gonna, you know, find a decision on whether or
not they were consistent.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's like saying that you've been convicted of something
and the penalty calls for, you know, two to three years,
but we're going to hit you with twelve twelve, twelve
years or twenty years, whatever we might decide to do.
It seems a little unfair. Council. A quick comment on you,
do you read that the same way as as Denny
reads it.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I do. And there was some talk in the decision
that Milton had said, well, you know, we can opt
out and not get these funds. But there was you know,
not clear to me executing what the what the ESJC
was saying that what what are the enforcement actions I
guess requiring the town to create this zoning district. It
(16:48):
seems unclear that there was any anything there at all.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, I think the reference was that that they could
be enforcement inequity, and I don't, frankly, frankly understand what
they mean by that. I do understand what equity means
as opposed to at law, but it was there were
there were some holes in the decision. So we'll we'll see.
We're going to get to phone calls. Denny an attorney hole,
and I hope you both can stay there six one, seven, two, five, four,
(17:16):
ten thirty. Those lines are full. However, if you want
to take advantage of a couple of lines one other
line six one seven, nine three one, ten thirty, we
would get as many people in as possible, not looking
for speeches, looking either for questions or or or sixcinct
comments as to how you feel about not only today's decision,
but this MBTA Communities Act in general. It was interesting today.
(17:39):
I was reading one press release from the Pioneer Institute
and they they're thrilled about it. And that's a very
interesting organization. It's generally a very free market type organization,
almost a libertarian aspect, and it's it was interesting to
see the Pioneer Institute come down in favor of the
Court's decision today. But that's that's a side note that
(18:02):
I won't ask you guys about. We'll just take a
quick break here for some news and get the phone
calls right after the break. I think it's an important
issue because it really does talk about how much again
absent some constitutional deprivation. Obviously, none of these communities are
being accused of compromising or denying any individual or group
(18:24):
of individuals their rights. To move into their communities. This
is not a redlining sort of case. This is like
do it our way or the highway, and I just
don't like that tone coming from Beacon Hill as a citizen.
That's all. We'll be back on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
If you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w
B Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
We're ready to go to phones. My guest Denny Swans Swinson.
She is a Milton resident who has been in the
forefront of this fight against the MVTA Communities Act, And
when I say against it, I think she's willing to
cooperate as long as the state makes clear what is
involved and just doesn't steamroll the community. That a fear characterization.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Denny, Yes, that is that's that's fair. I think there,
you know, there's a middle ground to be had and
I am hopeful that we can take this opportunity to
create an avenue, you know, talk through the tough issues,
and there are tough issues in each town. In Milton,
it's the misclassification of rapid transit. But as you know
(19:31):
from having you know shows on this in another town,
it's a safe access in and out, or in many
towns it's the lack of hospital care or access to
a hospital. In another town, I was talking to a
farming community. They have serious concerns about not having enough
water or access to underground water. They're a farming community,
(19:52):
and there is no avenue to talk with the state.
The state is totally insensitive to this part of their concern. So,
you know, I talked to residents all the time and
people from other towns, and there just needs to be
an avenue for our towns to be able to address
our concerns and to work together, you know, to find
(20:15):
a middle ground and to find solutions.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Let's try to find some solutions with our callers. We
have attorney Paul Hogan here who's representing small businesses about
seventeen small businesses, and Denny Swinson, who is an activist.
I think she were now a community activist in Milton.
Let's go to a couple of callers from Milton. Let
me go first to Kerry, who's calling in for Milton. Carry.
You are first this hour and night side with Denny
(20:40):
Swinson and also attorney Paul Hogan. What's your question of comment?
Speaker 8 (20:42):
Carrie Hi Dan, thanks for taking my call. Happy New
Year and happy eighteenth anniversary. Thank you for taking the call.
I appreciate you covering this topic because you're really one
of the few people who has been very helpful and
relentless in covering and uncovering I think kind of the
(21:04):
root cause of what's going on behind here. As you
have said a couple of times on your program, previous programs,
not tonight, follow the money, right, there's a lot of
things going on here.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Money. There's no doubt about that, Yeah.
Speaker 8 (21:19):
No doubt, no doubt. Yes, yes, absolutely, any good reporter
knows that, right, And I really appreciated hearing Attorney Hogan
come now and also speak about some of the important
points about that lack of consideration of small businesses. And
that's not just an issue here in Milton, but that's
an issue that I hear from many people in a
(21:40):
number of other communities, including Marshfield where I grew up.
It's an issue, and it's switch it's an issue in
many of the other towns. Are having the same hands
that some of the towns that are grappling with the
same issues.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
That we are.
Speaker 8 (21:54):
And as you accurately reported, you know, of course, this
is sort of a battle for the freedom of our
rights and when you speak about this here we are
this will be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Lessington,
(22:15):
Massachusetts is the birthplace of if you will are independence
from tyranny. I feel like this is a somewhat tyrannicle, tyrannical,
you know, ruth somewhat against many of our towns. Then
we're all trying to do good things about providing housing, homes,
(22:36):
you know, everything that we can. Janny brings up a
lot of great points. But my question really to Governor
Haley if she would ever take a question from me.
I have loved in many you know, emails through her portal.
If the law is truly aimed at addressing the regional
housing crisis, then why is she at the same time
(22:59):
filling up our precious few spaces for emergency housing for
citizens battling you know, homelessness, addiction, the danger of the
streets and places like mass and cats, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, with illegal aliens. And it's sort of seems
kind of ironic. Maybe, I don't know, strange that this
(23:22):
ruling came out today. I didn't know. I don't know
if Attorney Hogan or Denny expected this would come out today.
I was surprised. Maybe I'm just missing it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well, you never know. The State Supreme Court issues rulings
on their own schedule. Trust me on that.
Speaker 8 (23:36):
They yeah, no, no, you're right, Dan, I.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Realized that, Well, we'll just leave that question. I don't
want to go off into a different question. Well, we
can leave the questions like that, but let's if either
Denny or Attorney Hogan want to address it, they can,
but we can leave it as a rhetorical question, or
you can comment on or Attorney Hogan.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Thank you, Erry, Thank you any Hogan. I think it
is more of a rhetorical question, but it is. It's
a good point. I mean, if we have this type
of housing crisis, it's driving them to bypass the Administrative
Procedure Act. Why are we using up these other resources?
(24:28):
Uh for people that way?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Okay, all right, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Gary,
will we talk again, Thank you, Thank you, great night.
Let me go next to Mark is in Milton as well.
Mark next on Nsich. Go right ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Hey, Dan, thank you so much, and thank you for
being the person over the course of the past year
or so has put some light on this topic. Very
few of the media outlets are covering this in an
embiased manner. To say the least, I'm calling in to
support my good friend Denny Swinson. I've been one of
her foot soldiers, got to know her through all this,
and really have enjoyed working with Denny. She kind of
(25:03):
lit the match under this whole thing, which I think
in the big picture has really gotten a lot of
people across the state and the effected communities really to
wake up and start to question these decisions in our government,
the rubber stamping going on by this legislature, the rule
by fiat which seems to be taking place from Healey,
(25:24):
I'll leave my comments brief, but what just kind of
strikes me is the insincerity and in disingenuous. Even at
the break up at the top of the hour, you
had comments from Andrea Campbell saying she wants to work
and is willing to listen from day one, and I've
been involved with this over a year now with Denny.
When we've pleaded, and Denny has pleaded to talk to
(25:44):
the Lieutenant Governor and the governor and Drisco. They stone Wall,
this community did not even want to hear our concerns.
There was a meeting here the night before the town
wide vote that Lieutenant Governor Driscoll was on and people
who were not identified, as you know, huge supporters of
the MBT act were forcibly taken out of the meeting,
(26:07):
not let in to enter because they were so afraid
of having any questions or dialogue. So the fact that
Campbell and Heally and Driscoll are all saying that they
want to talk with communities, so far they've shown nothing
but contempt for communities. And you know, a final point here,
this governor just seems to have no accountability to anybody,
for constituents. I've never seen a politician who who wants
(26:29):
to go to war with the people who pay the
taxes like she has. The SJC. Now she seems to
have contempt for by saying, but you know, they issued
this order saying that basically go back to the drawing
cord and you know, you know, make these guidelines properly instituted.
And she's saying, well, we'll have new ones by Friday. Well,
where's the hearing's going to take place by Friday? Like
(26:51):
like she she seems to be out of control. And
the fact that finally, she you know, is spinning. This
is this huge win for her or whatever. Hey, who knows,
she rules by fiat, so she missed. She might not
pay attention to anything anybody else says. But her administration
seems to be entering a death spiral. Between the Stuart
healthcare debacle, the immigration debacle, the billions of dollars that's
(27:16):
you know, coming to cost us now another four and
twenty five million dollars. She's begging the legislature for the
Bluehill Capital cronyism scandal, which you know, kind of got
swept under the rug her, you know, wiping away her
her friends there and making sure they're not held accountable.
And the eleven percent pay rate pay raise for the legislature.
So she she needs to win, and she's gonna take
She's gonna take her pound of flesh out of Milton. Apparently,
(27:38):
I see no evidence that she or anybody else in
that administration or the legislation of that matter of fact,
will pay any heed to having any meaningful dialogue with
with these communities, including Milton and all the others. I
hope they do. But hooray for Denny. We got to
win today. They can call it anything they want, but
they're supposed to go back to the drawing board now
(27:58):
and give towns a little bit of input and impact studies.
We'll see if they do it. But thank you so
much Dan for the call, and thank you Dan.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Okay, you're welcome. Mark. I appreciate certainly something doing something
new rules, promulgation of regulations by Friday. That seems a
bit rushed. Well, we lost Paul there for a second.
Paul very quick comment to Mark's point, which I'd like
you to reinforce the administration basically saying, hey, we'll just
(28:25):
write some new rules by Friday and everything's honky. Dori,
I don't see that being possible.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
That's just in genuine I mean it's absolutely impossible. Hearings,
you know, have to be scheduled usually ninety or one
hundred and twenty days out front doing a fiscal study
of the impact on communities for the first year, second year,
and five year. I mean that takes months, probably takes
a third party, large accounting management firm doing a small business.
(28:54):
I mean absolutely, Dan, I mean when I heard that,
I was like, what, because you know what the point
was is that the SJAC while they opened the door
and said you have the right to make this law.
They said, these guidelines that these regulations have to have
to go away and you have to start from scratch.
(29:14):
But again it looked, it seems to that they never
really appreciated the requirements that they have to undertake to
issue these regulations, and it was really kind of a
stunning statement.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
All right, we've got to take a quick break. We're
going to be back with more phone calls here on
Nightside with my guest Dennysewinson, a Milton resident and attorney
Paul Hogan and represents about seventeen small businesses impacted adversely
potentially by the MBTA Communities Act, and feel free to
join this conversation where I've got one line opened six one,
seven thirty b right back on night Side.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Now back to Dan Ray line from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
We have pack lines, so I'm going to ask everybody
if they can, in deference to everyone else, to try
to be as concise as possible. Greg and Shrewsbury. Greg,
you're next on Nightside with Denny Swinson of Milton, attorney
Paul Hogan.
Speaker 7 (30:06):
Go right ahead, great, yeah, yeah, yeah, My question is
as follows. We have a referendum election on the fourth,
and I think people are minimizing the guidelines. I mean
the guidelines. I think of the meat of three A.
We look at what the compliant deadline was, the number
of units required, which is the biggest impact to the community,
So for us fifteen hundred units, the fact that they
(30:27):
even classify somebody like Shrewsbury's an adjacent community. So I'm
really trying to find out why, right what our community
not vote know now, considering we have on the table
a proposal that went through town meeting for a zone
that is compliant to nothing, because if those compliants guidelines
that's I'm missing something are gone. I see no reason
(30:49):
for our town to move forward with adopting a zone
when we have no idea of what we have to
comply with.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Okay, let's get Attorney Hogan to briefly respond to that concerned.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Attorney Hogan, I think that's a legitimate concern. I mean,
the regulations that were presented by the agency have been
stricken by the Supreme Judicial Court, so I think the
process should start again, that new regulations have to be prepared,
(31:19):
and you shouldn't go through the process and the other
cities in town should not be proceeding on the current regulations. Greg,
exactly how I see it.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great question, great answer, right to the point. Greg, keep
us posted on Shrewsbury.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Will you absolutely I'm well there?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
All right?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thanks, thanks very much. Let me go next to Rita
in Boston. Rita you and next on nights. I got
to be quick for me. Please read it.
Speaker 9 (31:47):
Go right ahead, Okay, I'll try. I'm a little The
only way I know about this subject is through your program,
because I can't get a buster paper anywhere in Boston.
But does the mbt A, it's called the mass Bay
Transportation Authority. Do they go throughout the state of Massachusetts
(32:11):
like through the Pioneer Valley.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
No, they serve one hundred and arguably one hundred and
seventy seven communities. These are communities basically eastern Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (32:24):
It's been available for this law that's been crafted for everyone.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
They want to oppose this law on one hundred and
seventy seven communities either that have an MBTA service, or
communities that contiguous to communities that have MBTA service, or
even communities who are two communities away. A sort of
contiguously contiguous.
Speaker 9 (32:47):
Like down to the Fall River, or.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You have to look at the map and break down
all the towns for you. But it's pretty much in Massachusetts.
The one exception is the city Boston. They are not
impacted by this. The community's more MBT service here. Yeah,
fair enough, Okay.
Speaker 9 (33:13):
It just seems that imposing these so called solutions on
these communities is terrible.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's that's that's the sense of that's my sense of it.
I think it's unfair because I think local communities. The
one right that local communities have is to zwe if
so if they don't want to have ten liquor stores
in in in Wellesley, they can do that. I don't
even think Wellesley has a liquor store. As a matter
of fact. I think that's part of the You got
to go to Natick if you want to find a
(33:41):
package store still, I believe.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
And then you've got to deal with developers who want
to put in these big, ugly, horrible buildings, you know,
these concrete blocks. You know, it's just not right.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Rita, I gotta let you run because I got four
more behind you. Thank you, Thank you much appreciate your call.
Thank you Okay, great night, good night. Let me go
to Brian and Milton. Brian Wilton's dominating our calls here,
you go right.
Speaker 10 (34:03):
Ahead, Thank you for having me on my concern. You
see in the news that we lost because of the
constitutionality was held by the court. Well, I look at
it completely differently. You see, the constitutionality of the original
law that was written and by the legislature is fine.
(34:24):
It's when the guidelines were promulgated that screwed it all up.
So our concern was the constitutionality of the guidelines not
given towns of voice, and that that's why I believe
Milton won today with the leadership of Dennis Winston. I
also find that the governor and the age are both
just ingenuous about this whole thing. They didn't try to
(34:46):
work with the town, and now to try to have
an emergency act this weekend, it's almost like they avoided
the law in the first place, the SJAC called them
out on it, and now they're trying to avoid the
law again by declaring some kind of housing emergency so
that they can force uh new laws or guidelines on
(35:07):
us without legislature approval. So it's just and then when
they talk about all these towns that have complied, they
forget to mention that they had a gun in their head.
You know, if you put a gun to my head,
I would go along with anything you asked of.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Me, so particularly if that gun is loaded.
Speaker 10 (35:26):
Agreed. They were forced to agree because they were afraid
of what was going to happen to them.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And Brian, I think you're you're you're agreeing with everybody
on the panel here and with your host. Uh and
I thank you for your call, but I want to
get to a couple more folks, and I hope you'll
appreciate us. We're gonna we will stick on this topic. Okay,
thank you very much. We'll go now one more in Milton.
(35:51):
Andrea is in Milton Andrea. You're next on Nights Side.
You're own Denny Swanson and Attorney Paul Hogan, go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Hi, thank you, Dan. Can you hear me?
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Okay?
Speaker 11 (36:04):
With all my might, I will avoid various aspects of
this discussion, but at the end of as someone who
lives in East Melton and has been at Anny side
with huge appreciation for what she's done and her dedication,
(36:24):
I just want to reflect on outside of anybody's opinion
of what the decision actually meant today that in this
time that that citizens voted, know, there's been so much
more awareness across towns across the state that one of
it happened. You know, it's very hard for people to
(36:47):
know what's going on at all times when things are
just kind of swept through, and so I'm very grateful
to the town, most especially to Denny for drawing attention
to it, because whatever it means to redraft the guidelines,
which I think is a bigger deal than most are
given credit to.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I hate to do this to you. I hate to
do this to you, but we're flat running out of time,
and that's the problem with sometimes when the ten o'clock
hour draws near. So I think you've made your point.
I think you've made it well. Hats off to Denny Swanson,
and hats off also to Attorney Paul Hogan. And let
us hope that through programs like this, people will understand
(37:30):
exactly what happened today. Andrea, thank you for your call
very much.
Speaker 8 (37:35):
Thank you, Dan, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Denny Swatson, thank you for your continued commitment. Attorney Hogan,
thank you very much for appearing tonight in the quot
of public opinion, which I think is a very important
court room if you get mine.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Thank you, Dan, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You're very welcome again. The quote of public opinion is
one that I think may may sway the day here.
We'll see what happens eventually. Both viewer welcome to come
back anytime. Thank you both very much for what you're doing. Well,
take a break. When we get back on the other
side of the nine o'clock news, we are going to
talk with Todd Lyons, the National Assistant Director of Ice,
(38:13):
and talk about maybe what's on the horizon with the
change of administration in terms of immigrants who are here
who have broken the law, in what their fate will be.
Back on night's side right after the ten o'clock news,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.