January 16, 2025 • 43 mins
Gary Tanguay Fills In On NightSide with Dan Rea
Are the pipelines drying up in the teaching profession? A recent report from the Economic Policy Institute and the Center for Economic and Policy Research found that the pay penalty for teachers, the regression-adjusted gap between the weekly wages of teachers and college graduates working in other professions, grew to a record 26.6% in 2023. Kara Miller, Boston Globe correspondent joined Gary to discuss the future of teaching.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
Are the pipelines drying up in the teaching profession? A recent report from the Economic Policy Institute and the Center for Economic and Policy Research found that the pay penalty for teachers, the regression-adjusted gap between the weekly wages of teachers and college graduates working in other professions, grew to a record 26.6% in 2023. Kara Miller, Boston Globe correspondent joined Gary to discuss the future of teaching.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Joining us right now from the Boston Globe is Karen
Miller talking about the fact that people just don't want
to be teachers anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And this is it bums me out, Kara, thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
For joining us, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yeah, great peace. By the way, in the Globe, disturbing
numbers to me. My sister was a special ed teacher
for thirty five years. I had two cousins that were
both educators at one point in time. It was a
position of status certainly. You know, I come from a
(00:33):
small town of Maine where teachers were respected.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm not gonna say feared.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Even though I did have a second grade teacher that
still brought out the belt, which is kind of crazy
when you think of it, just goes to show how
old I am. But nonetheless, it's a real problem. And
I have kids in school, and I live in a
great community that and you talk about that too in
your piece where you know, communities that have the taxable income,
you know, can put forth qual any educational systems.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
But even then, Kara, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I mean, if you're sitting here, what would you tell
how do you convince somebody to be a teacher?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Now, I mean as you say, I think it's hard.
I mean, you know, I start the piece a little
bit like this, but but I'll sort of like go
back and tell this little story. I didn't include the
personal part of it. But in the nineteen sixties, my
mom graduated from college and she became a teacher. And
(01:30):
one of the things that was true, and this kind
of ties into this is the you know, kernel of
where we are today. But one of the things that
was true in the nineteen sixties is that if you
were a woman who was educated and you wanted to work,
there were very many jobs that were available to you.
So educated women generally went into three buckets of jobs.
(01:51):
One was clerical work, one was nursing, and one was teaching.
When you looked at teaching, compared to other white collar
jobs that women did, teachers made a fifteen percent pay premium.
So like, of the choice is available to you, a
pretty good choice. So and I think a lot of
people when they think, not you know, not everybody, but
(02:13):
a lot of people when they think back to the
teacher they had who like you know, changed their life,
was like a great chemistry teacher or whatever it was
a woman. But over time, that pay bump that women
got for being teachers. That has collapsed. So women now
get a twenty one percent paid penalty for being a
(02:33):
teacher compared to some other college compared to other college
educated women. And then men have a thirty six percent
pay penalty compared to other college educated men, because college
educated men tend to make more than college educated women.
So to like come back to your question of how
you convinced somebody to be a teacher, it's pretty hard
(02:55):
because when you're twenty years old and you're sitting around
in college thinking what do I want to do? You
generally do not want to make twenty or thirty percent
less than everybody else.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You know, Well you could, that's right, I mean, that's it,
but you could take a little bit of a hit
because the argument always was you get the summers off,
you know. And I remember my teachers, you know, I
still like. You know, one I still talk to today
was my baseball coach. I talked to him all the time.
You know, he would have the summer off and they
would teach driver's ed or you know, they'd work at
(03:27):
a summer camp. And my mother in law was a
teacher for years and in the summer. She was the
director of a girl summer camp make a little extra money.
So it was a terrific lifestyle. But when you're talking about,
for example, in your article Arlington with a bachelor's degree
and a master's degree, y and a master's degree, Yeah,
(03:48):
you make fifty nine grand, How the hell can you
live on that?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You can't?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I mean, that was twenty twenty three. But I think
a few things are her crew about teaching. One is
that you're say, that's a lot less than the average
person in Arlington is making. So you're probably not living
in Arlington, so you're probably having to like fight traffic
and get up even earlier than you normally would would
get up. But the other thing that teaching does is
(04:15):
that the pay bumps. So let's say you become like
a history teacher in Arlington. Well, you know, when you're
a first year history teacher, your life is probably not
that different from somebody who's in their fifteenth year of
teaching history at Arlington. You're probably teaching four or five
classes a day, you're prepping, you're you know, correcting papers,
(04:35):
whatever you're doing. But the person who's fifteen years in
is making a lot more than you probably you know,
well over one hundred thousand dollars a year. And so
one of the things about the pay structure is the
pay bumps that you get for being a teacher comes
well into your teaching career. And again, a lot of
like twenty five year olds don't want to be told like, well,
(04:58):
you're not gonna you're gonna be really poor are now,
But don't worry when you're thirty seven you'll make money.
Not when they're friends, I have, you know, a different
reality that they're that they're looking at.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, one of the things that has happened in Sebruary,
I won't pour It's not like I'm calling him out.
I'm actually paying him a compliment. But my kids have
a teacher who is a retired attorney. So I see
him every day at car pickup, you know, I think,
I mean, he must be late fifties, early sixties, and
he you know, as successful lawyer. I'm sure is comfortable
(05:35):
and likes to teach. That's a gift, I mean, that
is a gift for our school system right there, you know. So, yeah,
you know, is there a way and thinking outside the
box that you can bring in hybrid teachers can you
bring in a professional, a scientist to come in and
(05:59):
teach one horse a week. Of these the types of
things you're going to have to look at. Because I've
taught at Emerson, I've gone over and I've enjoyed it. Yeah,
after working in the business for thirty five years or whatever,
you go over and you know, you get you get
it when you teach, you definitely get Ah, it's the
fountain of youth.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, there's no doubt, there's no doubt.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Is there a way to do that where somebody you
bring in some hybrid situations?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I do think that there are, as you say, some
alternate paths in. You know, like one of my favorite
English teachers I think I was in seventh grade, Missus Davis.
She was basically retired. She was like teaching part time,
but she was so amazing that, you know, teaching part
(06:47):
time was great. I mean anything she could offer was
was great. But I do think that it is such
a large workforce, right You're talking not a few people,
You're talking millions of people. And I also think that
some of those, you know, the retired attorney, that sort
(07:07):
of thing. I think that's also more likely to happen
in the more affluent communities, you know, where a mom
doesn't have to work, but she maybe does have a
background in science or math, and so she does something
two or three days a week. I think the really
where the rubber really meets the road, and I think
(07:29):
it's really already starting to happen. And when you think
about like teacher shortages, which I think are coming, is
that in poorer communities, the ability to daff up with
those you know, with those kinds of people that we're
talking about, it's it doesn't really exist. And so when
you're talking about things like math and science, where people
(07:51):
make much more money with a science background or a
math background or computer science background, when they're not in teaching.
I had teachers tell me the ability in poorer communities
to get good math or good science or good computer
science teachers, they're almost non existent. And I think that's
(08:11):
it's going to get tougher.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You also made a very good point in your article,
and my kids have done it. You mentioned the tutoring
services that are available, and it costs money, you know,
I mean it's just in my too. You know, my
kids needed them, but they got they definitely became better
at math and science because some of these private tutoring
services were people like me would go and you'd pay
(08:34):
an hour for you know, some some college kid or
some math guru whatever to sit there with your your
kid on a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And that's a luxury, yes, And I think one of
the saddest things is that there's great research out of
BU and Harvard that that chronicles like the rise of
Math Museum and Kuman in these these different places that
have just exploded over the past twenty or so years,
mostly in wealthy areas, right, And so what you see is,
(09:05):
you know, if wealthy parents realize that there's a deficit
in their school like that you know that CS is
not being taught, that math is not being taught. But
they know that to be successful or to have certain
kinds of jobs, which are often very lucrative jobs, you
really need a very solid math background. They go out
and buy it, right, And we know not everybody is
(09:26):
going to do that because it's just like not available
to everybody. And so I pointed out in the piece
you In December, I believe there was a recent round
of you know, international math scores released, and not only
were our math scores bad, which is probably not super surprising,
but the gap between our top ten percent and our
(09:47):
bottom ten percent is one of the biggest in the world.
There's maybe three countries in the world or something that
have a bigger gap. I mean, we are just we're like,
you know, right right right at the bottom there.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Well, we're going to get you to talk about that
where we are as a country when it comes to
education and how I think it in the next fifty
to one hundred years. It could change the power of
balance in the world. Karaen Miller is our guests Boston Globe.
The pipelines are drawing up. White teachers salaries are catastrophic
for the profession. I got a ton more to talk
(10:19):
about with Karen right after this in wbz's Nightside. Now
back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night
Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. White people don't want
to be teachers anymore. Karen Miller, Boston Globe, joining us
here on wbz's Nightside. Gary Tangling in for Dan. Right,
So let's get to it here. I'm worried about the
future of the country when you talk about how we're
(10:42):
dropping down in these areas. When do we start to
see it affect our status internationally as a country, as
a world power.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
You know, it's a good question. It's a really have questions.
I mean, just on the first part of like when
do we see teacher shortages? I asked a bunch of
experts this, and I think a lot of people think
in the next five to ten years this is really
going to start to manifest itself in very unpleasant ways.
(11:17):
I'll just give you one statistic, which is in just
the last decade, we've seen about a twenty five percent
decline in the new teacher supply in a decade, right
when people don't want to be something. I mean, it's
like the inverse of you know, if you go back
to nineteen eighty there were not very many computer science majors,
(11:38):
but people respond pretty quickly to incentives, so by two thousand,
there were a lot of computer science majors, right, And
this is this is like the you know, inverse story
of that. You know, how does it affect our country?
I think it's Here's why that's a hard question to answer.
If you go back to what we were talking about before,
(12:00):
which is like that the people at the top have
a lot of money, they understand that, you know, learning
math and science and all sorts of things are very important.
And whether it's through private school or it's through tutoring
or whatever, they're going to get their kids in education rights.
That's important to them and they're going to do it,
and they have the money to make it happen. And
(12:21):
so the part of the question is like what do
you need for a successful country? I mean, if all
you need is a few people who have all the
money and power and start the companies and the other
people are kind of, you know, sort of eking out
a living or doing what they can, then we might
be able to have a fine country, like in aggregate
if we're talking GDP. But it doesn't mean that there
(12:44):
might be a lot of people who are left behind
because they just never got the education that they deserved.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Well, then, and I don't want to get off topic here,
but what the hell it's a four hour show. Then
you get into work ethic, and this is a I've done.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I've done hours on this as well.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Where you have a family that has the means to
send their son or daughter to private school, and they're
set up in certain situations where they didn't have to
work their way from the ground up. So now it
comes to work ethic. It comes to are you willing
to work six days a week? Are you willing to
work twelve hours a day? And I hear things from
(13:25):
the students at Emerson and various young people that I've
talked to that, you know, I don't want to work
six days a week like my dad did, or I
don't want to work twelve hours a day like my mom.
Like my wife works twelve hours a day. My wife
is a corporate executive. Okay, she is. She kicks ass.
She works twelve hours a day. That's what she does.
So it's not just men or women, you know, I
(13:46):
want to be clear on that. But you know, my
kids generation the idea of working twelve hours a day,
or the idea of having two jobs, or the idea
of over time or getting ahead. For some they talk
about the quality of life. And what I want to
say to them is, listen, knucklehead, the quality of life
(14:12):
is because you've been able to put money in your pocket.
And I hate to make it that simple, but there's
a lot of truth in that because a lot of
these kids have lived very good, comfortable childhoods and they
need to understand that if you're going to maintain that,
you got to kind of be a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You do, you just do. And I don't see the
work ethic. That's what I don't see.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I mean, And do you think that that and you
think that that is also like manifest itself in schools?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I mean, because now one of the things that drives
me crazy. And believe me, I'm not gonna call it.
My school system where I live. It's awesome. I've had
three kids go through it. It's terrific. I support it,
and this is but this is one of my beats.
You get to retake a test. What'd you get on
the math exam? I got an eighty? Well, I got
(15:09):
a chance to book move it up to an eighty five.
I'm like, well, excuse me, come again. What you get
to retake the test? That's a problem. I don't get it.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's such an interesting thing. I mean,
I think there's probably even amongst people who are affluent,
I think there's probably a bifurcation because I think that,
you know, another piece I wrote a few months ago
was about the considerable increase in people going to private
(15:42):
school in Newton, Brookline and Cambridge. And I think some
of that, you know, you've seen like these debates, sometimes
very bitter debates about should we offer like advanced math
in these schools, because then you have then you're pointing
out sort of who's in advanced math and who isn't
right that kind of highlights these differences. And I think
(16:05):
in part, you do have a group of people who
are voting with their feet and saying, well, I want
my kid to be in a very competitive situation, like
I don't want them to be in a situation where
the advanced classes are taken away and people are in
you know what I mean, and people are all together.
(16:27):
So while I do take your point that I do,
I definitely think you've got a surgeon people saying I
want work life balance. And in fact, one of the
teachers and the piece says to me, you know, teaching
is not something you can do two days a week
from home.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Oh no, no, no, it's hard, right. Teaching is hard.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
It's hard, right, and you have to show up early
in the morning and night, the long lunch.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And in some of them now, I mean even in
my town, when I.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Hear that they have to buy supplies, or if they
want to do something special when my taxes, I go,
We'll wait a minute. Or they'll have to say, you know,
can you contribute? You know, I have to buy some
market I got to buy this or that. I'm like, yeah,
that's crazy to me. Oh, teachers, believe me.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
To be a great teacher is hard to do. It's hard,
and I applaud the people that do it. I really do.
But I interrupted you. I'm sorry you were on a roll.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
What will you say?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I go, no, no, Well, I mean I think that
there's I agree with you to some degree that I
do think there's like this increased focus on work life balance.
But I also think that there are quite a few
people who are in these competitive jobs who are who
are very insistent, maybe you could argue to insistent, like
(17:43):
over schedule their kids, but are very clear on that
they want their kids to be you know, if it
takes like extra math classes, they want them to be
stars in math, if it takes extra whatever, you know
what I mean. They want them to be stars in sports.
So I think you've got like a little bit of
a buyer, right, You've got the You've got like the
hard driver type of people. And then and then I
(18:05):
hear what you're saying. And I actually experienced that in
school something too, where you could do some extra credit
to make up for the fact that you didn't do X,
Y or Z, which is you know, I mean, I
think it's a policy one could argue about, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, And I think I think the parents want the
kids to do it, but you have to motivate the
kid to do it like that's and you also have
to be able to as I have two young people,
one in college, one now leaving the next where I
said to my you know, we got to just back off.
You know, they got training reels are gone. Man, you
(18:42):
know you got And my eldest is busting her She
is working her tail off, she's working a couple jobs.
She's really focused. She's and we haven't had to give
that speech. We're very fortunate, very locked in. But back
to the private school thing.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I was anti private school until my son went okay,
because I mean I listen. I was raised by a
nurse and a mill worker. We had one used car.
The house was nine hundred square feet in Rumford, Maine.
Great life, middle class, main no problem, but you know,
(19:22):
private school forget it. You know, paid for half my college,
but spending you that amount of money to send somebody
to a non college was very foreign to me.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So my son did a prep year. It was the
best thing he ever did.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And I do see the value if you have the means,
And I've talked to parents about this. I've talked to
parents who have one kid in public school one kid
in private school, and the parent will say, well, the
kid in private school needs needs the attention because if
you go to a private school, you get twelve kids
at the class, and the teachers make more money and
(19:57):
so therefore you're probably going to get a better quality
with t teacher and the teacher only has to teach
twelve kids so as opposed to thirty five.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Because I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
When May comes around and I could see the teachers
at my kids' school, they got thirty five kids every
period and May comes, they're done, and I understand it. Yeah,
if I get private school now, I never did before,
but I get it. But it's expensive as hell, I
mean right, not everybody can do it.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yes, And you know, I did a piece of the
Globe magazine several months ago on gifting talented programs and
why we don't have them in Massachusetts so much. And
one of the interesting things that came out of that
was I talked to all these students who are way
ahead in school, you know, like they're a year ahead,
two years ahead in math. I mean some of these
(20:45):
kids were only like fourth fifth grade, and I was
talking to their parents. Many people wanted to go to
private school, but it was impossible. I mean, they were
an entire family living in a little apartment. They checked
on how much which the private school was. It was
like thirty two thousand dollars. It just couldn't it couldn't happen.
And so I think, I mean, you know, this kind
(21:08):
of fits in with a lot of the divergence we've
seen in like terms of the haves and the have not.
But I think I think what we really don't want
is a situation in which really great education is available
to rich people.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Oh, you're right, and right now, that's where we're.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Headed're available to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
That's where we're headed. But here's the other We're definitely
we're there, man. And I'll tell you something that's terrible
worries me is that, first of all. I discussed this
with my kids too. The trades are underutilized. There was
such a push my kids got to go to college.
My kids got to go to college. And I'm looking
at my electrician who's making two hundred thousand dollars a
(21:50):
year or more so the trades. I've heard there's a
rebirth in the trades, which I think is great because
we certainly need it. But also when I think it
comes to college education, you know, or what people need
to do in the workplace, it's a different world.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You know. A lot of it is technology.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
You have to be computer oriented, and maybe these kids
are because they grow up with it, you know. But
I think to be an average American worker now you
have to have a lot of tools in your toolkit.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yes, and I think that, you know, I feel like
knowing how to navigate the kind of things people know
how to do, you know, navigating Instagram, that's not quite enough.
I think you need, you know, some mathematical foundation. You
might need to know a little bit about coding. And
(22:42):
I think, as I said, those are the hardest things
to staff. I mean, those are the places where the
competition for teachers is intense, right, And the thing.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Is Cara started to cut off here.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But you know where you could make a living doing
manual labor and make a good living doing manual labor.
Now you've been replaced by automation. So you need to
know how to program the automation. You need to know
how to manage the AI. I guess that's what I'm saying.
Is I think that, And I don't consider necessarily the
trades like the trades like electricians, plumbers, and so forth.
I don't necessarily can consider that blue collar.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I don't think it. I don't think it is because
those guys crush it.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
But you know, if you talk about somebody that just
graduates from high school and gets a plue collar job,
are those jobs around anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Well? And also how good I mean, as you say,
being an electrician you can make a lot of money,
But how good are the systems that we have to
funnel people into those jobs? And how many really great
electricians are People also have to be taught to be
electricians or plumbers are an HVAC and so you all similarly,
(23:49):
you need some level of instruction. And I think one
of the things that was shocking to me reporting this
piece is that some people have very different ideas about teachers.
Some people think they're the greatest, some people don't respect them.
Almost if you ask people what do you care about
(24:10):
in life, almost everybody's first answer will be their children.
And so one of the incredible things to me is,
no matter what you think of teachers, we are clearly
facing a problem in which the pipeline is diminishing for teachers.
There's just not enough of them now. I mean, these
are the people who are going to be working with
(24:32):
your kids, who are going to be helping them to
succeed hopefully in life, and they're going away that no
matter what ideological background you come from, that should probably
concern you if you have children or care about any
children in your life.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
We are going to workshop that coming up next. Can
you hang on for one more segment?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
That's good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
We're going to workshop that with Kara Miller because I
don't think there's like one easy answer for that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Teachers, where are you?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That's and also I'm going to take a shot at
us the parents next.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
To WBZ, It's Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Welcome back Gary for day and tonight. Where are all
the teachers going? Karen Miller joining us from the Boston
Globe having a group a great chat. So what's the solution, Kara,
how do we get them back?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Gosh? I mean it's hard not to put money front
and center, because I mean, you do. I mean, I
remember graduating from college and you know, like the consultings
firms came around and interviewed people, and you know, people
were interested in doing things on Wall Street, and you know,
(25:51):
these are these are difficult jobs to get right. But
I've never heard people say, you know what, I want
to be a con I think it would make me
so happy. That's not what I think. You know, money
is a big driver of decisions, and so I do
not think that, you know, to come back to the
(26:14):
numbers we were talking about the beginning teachers can make
twenty seven percent on average less than other college graduates,
and you can get almost anybody to do it. I
think that is you have to face that and and
and again. You know, we were talking about wealthy towns.
There are wealthy towns, and I heard about this on
(26:34):
the West Coast several years ago. I remember being at
a meeting several years on the West Coast and people,
I don't know, if you've heard of this. Maybe this
happens on the East Coast. I haven't heard about it,
but people in their public school districts, in wealthy places
would all contribute like eight thousand dollars a year or something.
And I remember saying, really, for public school, how do
(26:54):
you get people to do that? And they said, basically,
I don't know. Everybody does that. You're kind of like
shamed into doing it. But it provided an additional pool
of money to boost salaries to get good people. So
I do not think until we come up with a
way to pay teachers competitively, you're not going to get
(27:16):
the best enough people, and you're not going to get
the best people to want to be teachers.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
There's no doubt it starts with finance. Missus X blah
blah blah blah blah did this to me? They will, Well,
let's say, you know, made me stand in a corner
or gave me an app for it while you deserved it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That doesn't happen. Now. See, this is my whole philosophy.
Care that today's parent.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Feels how their child performs is a reflection of them,
which is crap. But they do like, oh, if my
child is struggling that makes me look bad. That's what
I feel. That's especially in my town. That's what I
feel is like, you know, keeping up with the Joneses.
You know, if my kid is a C student in
the the kids an A student, that's like they that's
(28:03):
the same as somebody having a bigger house than me,
And that's just ridiculous. So I think that parents blame teachers,
and I think they blame the school system as opposed
to being more supportive. And I think that's one of
the reasons why people don't teach, because parents are paying
in the ass.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah, I think you're certainly right that parents are more
sort of aggressive and as you indicate, like they push
back a lot more than they would have a generation
to go instead of sort of accepting like, oh well
you got to see on that. I guess you better
study harder next time. I wonder, though, if the finance
(28:47):
piece of it, you know, I think that money and
prestige often go hand in hand, and I kind of
wonder if teachers were paid more it was a very
elite job, very hard to get, if there'd be actually
parents would like uh, feel less inclined to do that,
(29:12):
and teachers might also just be like, listen, don't bother me, Like,
you know, you're lucky this kid has.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I wonder if the dynamic would change. And I know,
like in Finland, I think maybe twenty years ago, they
completely revamped teaching. It's it's now incredibly hard to get
to be a teacher. It's like getting into an Ivy
League school. And and so I think these things, like
the money, the prestige, the respect, they're kind of all
(29:40):
wrapped up in a package. And I think when you
can't really have one of them without the others, in
some ways, I that's.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
What I worry.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, no, I think so too, because then if you're
going to get paid more money than you're going to,
the quality of the teacher will be better, you know.
And I understand in that, But that's that's what I
see now. Like I feel teachers need to have more
power in the classroom. I think sometimes they're worried about
getting sued. I think the principals have to sit there
(30:13):
and they have to balance the parents and they have
to deal with the teachers. I mean, oh my god,
we're before you know, hey, if you get sent to
the principal's office, if I got sent to mister Down's
office or missus Knauer. I mean, oh boy, and that
got back to my house. Oh, there'd be hell to
pay now. It's like you get sent to the principal's office.
Let me call my lawyer.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yes, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I think it is.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, there's gotta be there's gonna be something else there.
It's a problem, and it's gonna hurt the country. There's
no doubt about it. And unfortunately, I don't think our
government views this as an issue.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I really don't. I don't think there. I don't.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I I'm not gonna say it's like a pandemic or
it's catastrol. But you know, we have to worry about
the environment. We talked about the ozone level, the ozone layer,
no doubt about it. We have to take care of
the environment. The West Coast is burning. We have to
be more aware of these things. And the same thing
with education because probably not my generation, maybe not my
(31:19):
kids' generation, but it's going to screw this country, there's
no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It's going to screw us.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, I mean, you know, to your point, we just
went through a presidential election, and how much did you
hear anybody talking about education.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
No, they don't twelve education.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
You didn't hear it. I think I think you're right,
and it there's so much good evidence that people's lives
are profoundly affected by the kind of education they get,
so that if you have somebody who's poorer, who's more disadvantage,
but they get great instruction, it can change the trajectory
(31:57):
of their lives in some ways. It's so it's crazy
that we look away from that and say whatever, like,
let's just let the card, let's not pay people very much,
let the cards fall where they may, because we know
where the cards are going to fall. But it's so,
as you say, it's so essential to the future of
the country, and so the fact that we will go
through an election and nobody even talks about it, it
(32:20):
seems not good.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
We had a teacher and I'll wrap it up here.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I won't mention any names, but with our family structure,
we had one teacher that made a call to us
that said something's up, like something's going on, and we
were able to it was fine.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It was typical high school stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But we but this part and this person noticed the
behavior change. And we know with the stresses and the
insecurities and the pressure of high school and so forth.
And this teacher called us, And I'm telling you, man,
I mean, this dude was a difference maker, a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And to keep those peace people, you gotta pay them.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You gotta pay them because sooner or later they're gonna go. Well,
I can't keep doing this, you know, because I have
my own family to take care of. But I've seen
it where they make a difference. I've seen it with
this teacher called us and said I'm seeing something. We
were able to nip it in the butt and take.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Care of it.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So it matters, and it's and it's a problem, and
it's just not it's not an electable thing. You know,
it's not a hot button. It's not make America great again.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
You know, should be right, of course, it should beat again.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Well, I mean, if you think about it, if you
think about some of the foreign powers, you know, yes,
why why are they Why.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Are there other powerful countries in the world. It's not
because they have bigger missiles or they may have the bomb.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It's because their kids are smarter, people are smarter, people
are working. There's a work ethic, there's it, there's there's
it's brain power.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That's the thing that's going to control the world. Anyways,
I'm done. You brought the best. Yeah, thank you, Kara.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
No, you're tortually right. And I have to say, one
of the lucky things we've had up to this point
is that we've been able to poach a lot of
those smart people from other places. It's not just American smart.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
There's no question you are.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
No, they don't know no, right right, absolutely, because it's
a democracy and the lifestyle is better here. I mean, obviously,
if you have if you have a brilliant person that
graduates from China, comes from China or kind of maybe
comes from various countries and they're.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Brilliant, of course they want to live here. So is
that what we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
We're just going to keep I mean, I don't well
outsource our teachers or you know, I don't know, which
is fine. I mean, that's what that's what this country
is built on. You know, Oh my god, let's not
get an immigration will be here all night. But I mean,
but but you're right. I mean, it's a land of opportunity.
Will you come here and you can you can you
can make a life here. But you're right, there's no doubt.
(34:52):
I mean, if I'm a teacher in China and I'm brilliant,
I'd rather be here.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, But but I also think I do that. I
mean for our tech I mean, you look at who's
in Silicon Melly, if you know, for our tech companies,
we can get leaders from other places, and we often do.
But I don't think we don't want to foreclose the
opportunities from you know, over people from Missouri and Course
(35:17):
and Springfield, And I mean, you don't want to do that.
And that's that's kind of the path we're on.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, I know, we got to make teaching cool again.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Karen, a great job, Boston Globe, Karen Miller, thank you
for joining us, and you have a good night.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Okay, care take care. Wow, I need that was a lot.
I had a lot to say about that. If you
guys want to jump on, I got a few minutes
at six one, seven thirty. If there are any teachers
out there, if there are people that were thinking, if
you were you thinking about being a teacher and now.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You oh, I need to make a little more money
than that.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Or you were a teacher and you gave it up
or you are a teacher and you love it. I
would love to hear from you at six, one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty right here on WBC. Still to come, Dan
Shaw want to see the Boston Globe at ten thirty
talking about Bob Buker and our correspondent from the West Coast,
Sam Metler on Trump and the fact that this country
(36:11):
is on fire and that's just that's literally, that's all
coming up tonight on wbz's Nightside.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Karen Miller joining us at Boston Globe and white people
don't want to be teachers anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It is a problem, folks.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Big Time sixty coming up at ten o'clock. Tory Champagne
joins us from ESPN Entertainment. Uh Toy is a television director,
a producer. We're going to talk about some cool things
that you can watch. Just a couple of guys talking
about some severance. We're gonna talk about severans. I don't
(36:52):
get it. The show scares the hell out of me.
He loves it. We'll discuss it. SNL fifty I did
see that and I loved it. So we'll talk that
about that coming up at ten o'clock right here on WBC. Okay,
what do we do? What do we do about the
teaching situation? Let's go to Paul in Watertown if I
can get this right. Hey, Paul, you're up on WBZ.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Thanks for taking the call. Sarah, So, I thought about
becoming a teacher, but I knew thirty five years ago
I wouldn't be able to navigate educational politics. But that's
not really my point. My point is is that it's
not just an education it's economy wide, the labor shortage,
and it's not because of work ethic. Okay. Dan had
(37:37):
on the other night a guy from an outfit called
Samurai Success, and all they were talking about is, oh,
just how nobody wants to work. Well, listen here, people
in the United States of America, we work more hours
and we take less vacation time than any other industrialized
country in the world. Okay. The reason why people, the
(37:58):
reason why white men, particular between their mid twenties and
the early fifties, don't want to work, it's because they
would be It's because the American workplace is a seating cauldron.
Of toxic abuse and nonsense. That's why we have such
a high workplace homicide rate in this country. I've been abused,
and I am a commercial truck driver, a driver, a
(38:19):
track to trailer. I have an awesome work record, Okay.
I work in an industry without not just with a
labor shortage. I work in an industry with an acute,
enduring labor shortage. Okay, what it's just a labor shortage.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You can't find?
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Yeah, And I'll tell you. I'll tell you why that is.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I love what I'm doing it and I got a
good gig. Okay, but it's all load pay, piece pay.
Is very few unionized hourly jobs in the trucking industry anymore,
and people would rather live in newly impoverished destitution in
their parents' basements and be subjected to the violence and
(39:02):
the abuse of the American workplace. I am so sick
and tired of hearing that people don't want to work.
I'm tired of it. It's nonsense, and people will do
everything possible to avoid actually talking about why people don't
want to work.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well, how come they don't? Why? Why? Then?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Why? For example, the restaurant industry has taken a major
hit where you will go in and now say I
was in a place and nothing fancy, just a typical
restaurant where the waiter said, look, we only have two
people on tonight.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We can only serve half the tables.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Why is that, Excuse me, Because because we're a low
wage economy, okay, and because people want to be you know,
paid on honest day's living for an honest day's work. Okay,
(39:59):
we have we have, you know, three people, three families
in the country control like seventy percent of the wealth
that people don't like to hear this, and it's not
class warfare, okay, well it is class warfare. It's the
class warfare of the of the morbidly rich against the
rest of us. Okay, this is this is insane. People
(40:23):
in this country we work more hours and take less
vacation time than any other industrialized country in the world.
People want the dignity of work and livelihood and providing
for their families, but they would rather be poor and
have their dignity than be abused. This is why somewhere
in the United States of America, several times a week,
(40:44):
almost every day, somebody takes a loaded firearm to their
workplace and kills, the kills their supervisors and their coworkers.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Well, Paul, I do think I work for it.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Do your research.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I do appreciate the phone call on this, and I
think that if you were to look at the work ethic,
I think you have to break it down demographically. I
think over a certain age group, you still have a
work ethic. Beneath a certain age level, it's not as
great as it once was. Michael Shrewsbury, you only get
a minute or two, buddy, you're on WBC's Night Side.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Hello, Mike, Oh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
I didn't realize I was. I apolog So. I want
to touch on something that you mentioned a little while ago,
as far as the kids. Okay, students you mentioned, you know,
called the principal's opposite. You need to call the lawyer
or whatever, right right, gips. These some chips, these they
(41:40):
have done all but some of them they have this
mentality that because of their age, they're just untouchable, are
they They kind of slot that.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Oh there's no doubt. I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
There's there's is it accountability is there's a fear that
doesn't exist anymore. I mean I just remember for talking
to the library. I got sent to mister Downs's office,
and it's scared to, you know, crap out of me.
I don't know if that happens anymore. I don't know
if that fear is still there. Kids know their rights.
(42:19):
That's a problem, Mike. Thanks for the phone call, buddy.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I just when I hear myself sometimes I sound like
just old bastard radio.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
But I think it's true. I think it's true. That
wraps up our topic on the teachers. Teachers. I applaud you,
the teachers in my town. I applaud you.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I hope that we can fix this situation because I
think it's detrimental to the future of our country that
teachers need to be paid appropriately, they need to be
compensated appropriately, and quite frankly, they need to get.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Some of their power back, all right.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Coming up next yere on WZ got to talk to Tory
Sharpaine about some of the coolest thing Instead of watching
on that, we're watching a television Dad Shaughnessy, I missed
just a bit outside.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Bob Yuker coming up with ten thirty on WBC
Joining us right now from the Boston Globe is Karen
Miller talking about the fact that people just don't want
to be teachers anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And this is it bums me out, Kara, thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
For joining us, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yeah, great peace. By the way, in the Globe, disturbing
numbers to me. My sister was a special ed teacher
for thirty five years. I had two cousins that were
both educators at one point in time. It was a
position of status certainly. You know, I come from a
(00:33):
small town of Maine where teachers were respected.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm not gonna say feared.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Even though I did have a second grade teacher that
still brought out the belt, which is kind of crazy
when you think of it, just goes to show how
old I am. But nonetheless, it's a real problem. And
I have kids in school, and I live in a
great community that and you talk about that too in
your piece where you know, communities that have the taxable income,
you know, can put forth qual any educational systems.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
But even then, Kara, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I mean, if you're sitting here, what would you tell
how do you convince somebody to be a teacher?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Now, I mean as you say, I think it's hard.
I mean, you know, I start the piece a little
bit like this, but but I'll sort of like go
back and tell this little story. I didn't include the
personal part of it. But in the nineteen sixties, my
mom graduated from college and she became a teacher. And
(01:30):
one of the things that was true, and this kind
of ties into this is the you know, kernel of
where we are today. But one of the things that
was true in the nineteen sixties is that if you
were a woman who was educated and you wanted to work,
there were very many jobs that were available to you.
So educated women generally went into three buckets of jobs.
(01:51):
One was clerical work, one was nursing, and one was teaching.
When you looked at teaching, compared to other white collar
jobs that women did, teachers made a fifteen percent pay premium.
So like, of the choice is available to you, a
pretty good choice. So and I think a lot of
people when they think, not you know, not everybody, but
(02:13):
a lot of people when they think back to the
teacher they had who like you know, changed their life,
was like a great chemistry teacher or whatever it was
a woman. But over time, that pay bump that women
got for being teachers. That has collapsed. So women now
get a twenty one percent paid penalty for being a
(02:33):
teacher compared to some other college compared to other college
educated women. And then men have a thirty six percent
pay penalty compared to other college educated men, because college
educated men tend to make more than college educated women.
So to like come back to your question of how
you convinced somebody to be a teacher, it's pretty hard
(02:55):
because when you're twenty years old and you're sitting around
in college thinking what do I want to do? You
generally do not want to make twenty or thirty percent
less than everybody else.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You know, Well you could, that's right, I mean, that's it,
but you could take a little bit of a hit
because the argument always was you get the summers off,
you know. And I remember my teachers, you know, I
still like. You know, one I still talk to today
was my baseball coach. I talked to him all the time.
You know, he would have the summer off and they
would teach driver's ed or you know, they'd work at
(03:27):
a summer camp. And my mother in law was a
teacher for years and in the summer. She was the
director of a girl summer camp make a little extra money.
So it was a terrific lifestyle. But when you're talking about,
for example, in your article Arlington with a bachelor's degree
and a master's degree, y and a master's degree, Yeah,
(03:48):
you make fifty nine grand, How the hell can you
live on that?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You can't?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I mean, that was twenty twenty three. But I think
a few things are her crew about teaching. One is
that you're say, that's a lot less than the average
person in Arlington is making. So you're probably not living
in Arlington, so you're probably having to like fight traffic
and get up even earlier than you normally would would
get up. But the other thing that teaching does is
(04:15):
that the pay bumps. So let's say you become like
a history teacher in Arlington. Well, you know, when you're
a first year history teacher, your life is probably not
that different from somebody who's in their fifteenth year of
teaching history at Arlington. You're probably teaching four or five
classes a day, you're prepping, you're you know, correcting papers,
(04:35):
whatever you're doing. But the person who's fifteen years in
is making a lot more than you probably you know,
well over one hundred thousand dollars a year. And so
one of the things about the pay structure is the
pay bumps that you get for being a teacher comes
well into your teaching career. And again, a lot of
like twenty five year olds don't want to be told like, well,
(04:58):
you're not gonna you're gonna be really poor are now,
But don't worry when you're thirty seven you'll make money.
Not when they're friends, I have, you know, a different
reality that they're that they're looking at.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, one of the things that has happened in Sebruary,
I won't pour It's not like I'm calling him out.
I'm actually paying him a compliment. But my kids have
a teacher who is a retired attorney. So I see
him every day at car pickup, you know, I think,
I mean, he must be late fifties, early sixties, and
he you know, as successful lawyer. I'm sure is comfortable
(05:35):
and likes to teach. That's a gift, I mean, that
is a gift for our school system right there, you know. So, yeah,
you know, is there a way and thinking outside the
box that you can bring in hybrid teachers can you
bring in a professional, a scientist to come in and
(05:59):
teach one horse a week. Of these the types of
things you're going to have to look at. Because I've
taught at Emerson, I've gone over and I've enjoyed it. Yeah,
after working in the business for thirty five years or whatever,
you go over and you know, you get you get
it when you teach, you definitely get Ah, it's the
fountain of youth.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, there's no doubt, there's no doubt.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Is there a way to do that where somebody you
bring in some hybrid situations?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I do think that there are, as you say, some
alternate paths in. You know, like one of my favorite
English teachers I think I was in seventh grade, Missus Davis.
She was basically retired. She was like teaching part time,
but she was so amazing that, you know, teaching part
(06:47):
time was great. I mean anything she could offer was
was great. But I do think that it is such
a large workforce, right You're talking not a few people,
You're talking millions of people. And I also think that
some of those, you know, the retired attorney, that sort
(07:07):
of thing. I think that's also more likely to happen
in the more affluent communities, you know, where a mom
doesn't have to work, but she maybe does have a
background in science or math, and so she does something
two or three days a week. I think the really
where the rubber really meets the road, and I think
(07:29):
it's really already starting to happen. And when you think
about like teacher shortages, which I think are coming, is
that in poorer communities, the ability to daff up with
those you know, with those kinds of people that we're
talking about, it's it doesn't really exist. And so when
you're talking about things like math and science, where people
(07:51):
make much more money with a science background or a
math background or computer science background, when they're not in teaching.
I had teachers tell me the ability in poorer communities
to get good math or good science or good computer
science teachers, they're almost non existent. And I think that's
(08:11):
it's going to get tougher.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You also made a very good point in your article,
and my kids have done it. You mentioned the tutoring
services that are available, and it costs money, you know,
I mean it's just in my too. You know, my
kids needed them, but they got they definitely became better
at math and science because some of these private tutoring
services were people like me would go and you'd pay
(08:34):
an hour for you know, some some college kid or
some math guru whatever to sit there with your your
kid on a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And that's a luxury, yes, And I think one of
the saddest things is that there's great research out of
BU and Harvard that that chronicles like the rise of
Math Museum and Kuman in these these different places that
have just exploded over the past twenty or so years,
mostly in wealthy areas, right, And so what you see is,
(09:05):
you know, if wealthy parents realize that there's a deficit
in their school like that you know that CS is
not being taught, that math is not being taught. But
they know that to be successful or to have certain
kinds of jobs, which are often very lucrative jobs, you
really need a very solid math background. They go out
and buy it, right, And we know not everybody is
(09:26):
going to do that because it's just like not available
to everybody. And so I pointed out in the piece
you In December, I believe there was a recent round
of you know, international math scores released, and not only
were our math scores bad, which is probably not super surprising,
but the gap between our top ten percent and our
(09:47):
bottom ten percent is one of the biggest in the world.
There's maybe three countries in the world or something that
have a bigger gap. I mean, we are just we're like,
you know, right right right at the bottom there.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Well, we're going to get you to talk about that
where we are as a country when it comes to
education and how I think it in the next fifty
to one hundred years. It could change the power of
balance in the world. Karaen Miller is our guests Boston Globe.
The pipelines are drawing up. White teachers salaries are catastrophic
for the profession. I got a ton more to talk
(10:19):
about with Karen right after this in wbz's Nightside. Now
back to Dan Ray live from the Window World night
Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. White people don't want
to be teachers anymore. Karen Miller, Boston Globe, joining us
here on wbz's Nightside. Gary Tangling in for Dan. Right,
So let's get to it here. I'm worried about the
future of the country when you talk about how we're
(10:42):
dropping down in these areas. When do we start to
see it affect our status internationally as a country, as
a world power.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
You know, it's a good question. It's a really have questions.
I mean, just on the first part of like when
do we see teacher shortages? I asked a bunch of
experts this, and I think a lot of people think
in the next five to ten years this is really
going to start to manifest itself in very unpleasant ways.
(11:17):
I'll just give you one statistic, which is in just
the last decade, we've seen about a twenty five percent
decline in the new teacher supply in a decade, right
when people don't want to be something. I mean, it's
like the inverse of you know, if you go back
to nineteen eighty there were not very many computer science majors,
(11:38):
but people respond pretty quickly to incentives, so by two thousand,
there were a lot of computer science majors, right, And
this is this is like the you know, inverse story
of that. You know, how does it affect our country?
I think it's Here's why that's a hard question to answer.
If you go back to what we were talking about before,
(12:00):
which is like that the people at the top have
a lot of money, they understand that, you know, learning
math and science and all sorts of things are very important.
And whether it's through private school or it's through tutoring
or whatever, they're going to get their kids in education rights.
That's important to them and they're going to do it,
and they have the money to make it happen. And
(12:21):
so the part of the question is like what do
you need for a successful country? I mean, if all
you need is a few people who have all the
money and power and start the companies and the other
people are kind of, you know, sort of eking out
a living or doing what they can, then we might
be able to have a fine country, like in aggregate
if we're talking GDP. But it doesn't mean that there
(12:44):
might be a lot of people who are left behind
because they just never got the education that they deserved.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Well, then, and I don't want to get off topic here,
but what the hell it's a four hour show. Then
you get into work ethic, and this is a I've done.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I've done hours on this as well.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Where you have a family that has the means to
send their son or daughter to private school, and they're
set up in certain situations where they didn't have to
work their way from the ground up. So now it
comes to work ethic. It comes to are you willing
to work six days a week? Are you willing to
work twelve hours a day? And I hear things from
(13:25):
the students at Emerson and various young people that I've
talked to that, you know, I don't want to work
six days a week like my dad did, or I
don't want to work twelve hours a day like my mom.
Like my wife works twelve hours a day. My wife
is a corporate executive. Okay, she is. She kicks ass.
She works twelve hours a day. That's what she does.
So it's not just men or women, you know, I
(13:46):
want to be clear on that. But you know, my
kids generation the idea of working twelve hours a day,
or the idea of having two jobs, or the idea
of over time or getting ahead. For some they talk
about the quality of life. And what I want to
say to them is, listen, knucklehead, the quality of life
(14:12):
is because you've been able to put money in your pocket.
And I hate to make it that simple, but there's
a lot of truth in that because a lot of
these kids have lived very good, comfortable childhoods and they
need to understand that if you're going to maintain that,
you got to kind of be a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You do, you just do. And I don't see the
work ethic. That's what I don't see.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I mean, And do you think that that and you
think that that is also like manifest itself in schools?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I do.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I mean, because now one of the things that drives
me crazy. And believe me, I'm not gonna call it.
My school system where I live. It's awesome. I've had
three kids go through it. It's terrific. I support it,
and this is but this is one of my beats.
You get to retake a test. What'd you get on
the math exam? I got an eighty? Well, I got
(15:09):
a chance to book move it up to an eighty five.
I'm like, well, excuse me, come again. What you get
to retake the test? That's a problem. I don't get it.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's such an interesting thing. I mean,
I think there's probably even amongst people who are affluent,
I think there's probably a bifurcation because I think that,
you know, another piece I wrote a few months ago
was about the considerable increase in people going to private
(15:42):
school in Newton, Brookline and Cambridge. And I think some
of that, you know, you've seen like these debates, sometimes
very bitter debates about should we offer like advanced math
in these schools, because then you have then you're pointing
out sort of who's in advanced math and who isn't
right that kind of highlights these differences. And I think
(16:05):
in part, you do have a group of people who
are voting with their feet and saying, well, I want
my kid to be in a very competitive situation, like
I don't want them to be in a situation where
the advanced classes are taken away and people are in
you know what I mean, and people are all together.
(16:27):
So while I do take your point that I do,
I definitely think you've got a surgeon people saying I
want work life balance. And in fact, one of the
teachers and the piece says to me, you know, teaching
is not something you can do two days a week
from home.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Oh no, no, no, it's hard, right. Teaching is hard.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
It's hard, right, and you have to show up early
in the morning and night, the long lunch.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And in some of them now, I mean even in
my town, when I.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Hear that they have to buy supplies, or if they
want to do something special when my taxes, I go,
We'll wait a minute. Or they'll have to say, you know,
can you contribute? You know, I have to buy some
market I got to buy this or that. I'm like, yeah,
that's crazy to me. Oh, teachers, believe me.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
To be a great teacher is hard to do. It's hard,
and I applaud the people that do it. I really do.
But I interrupted you. I'm sorry you were on a roll.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
What will you say?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I go, no, no, Well, I mean I think that
there's I agree with you to some degree that I
do think there's like this increased focus on work life balance.
But I also think that there are quite a few
people who are in these competitive jobs who are who
are very insistent, maybe you could argue to insistent, like
(17:43):
over schedule their kids, but are very clear on that
they want their kids to be you know, if it
takes like extra math classes, they want them to be
stars in math, if it takes extra whatever, you know
what I mean. They want them to be stars in sports.
So I think you've got like a little bit of
a buyer, right, You've got the You've got like the
hard driver type of people. And then and then I
(18:05):
hear what you're saying. And I actually experienced that in
school something too, where you could do some extra credit
to make up for the fact that you didn't do X,
Y or Z, which is you know, I mean, I
think it's a policy one could argue about, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, And I think I think the parents want the
kids to do it, but you have to motivate the
kid to do it like that's and you also have
to be able to as I have two young people,
one in college, one now leaving the next where I
said to my you know, we got to just back off.
You know, they got training reels are gone. Man, you
(18:42):
know you got And my eldest is busting her She
is working her tail off, she's working a couple jobs.
She's really focused. She's and we haven't had to give
that speech. We're very fortunate, very locked in. But back
to the private school thing.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I was anti private school until my son went okay,
because I mean I listen. I was raised by a
nurse and a mill worker. We had one used car.
The house was nine hundred square feet in Rumford, Maine.
Great life, middle class, main no problem, but you know,
(19:22):
private school forget it. You know, paid for half my college,
but spending you that amount of money to send somebody
to a non college was very foreign to me.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So my son did a prep year. It was the
best thing he ever did.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And I do see the value if you have the means,
And I've talked to parents about this. I've talked to
parents who have one kid in public school one kid
in private school, and the parent will say, well, the
kid in private school needs needs the attention because if
you go to a private school, you get twelve kids
at the class, and the teachers make more money and
(19:57):
so therefore you're probably going to get a better quality
with t teacher and the teacher only has to teach
twelve kids so as opposed to thirty five.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Because I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
When May comes around and I could see the teachers
at my kids' school, they got thirty five kids every
period and May comes, they're done, and I understand it. Yeah,
if I get private school now, I never did before,
but I get it. But it's expensive as hell, I
mean right, not everybody can do it.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yes, And you know, I did a piece of the
Globe magazine several months ago on gifting talented programs and
why we don't have them in Massachusetts so much. And
one of the interesting things that came out of that
was I talked to all these students who are way
ahead in school, you know, like they're a year ahead,
two years ahead in math. I mean some of these
(20:45):
kids were only like fourth fifth grade, and I was
talking to their parents. Many people wanted to go to
private school, but it was impossible. I mean, they were
an entire family living in a little apartment. They checked
on how much which the private school was. It was
like thirty two thousand dollars. It just couldn't it couldn't happen.
And so I think, I mean, you know, this kind
(21:08):
of fits in with a lot of the divergence we've
seen in like terms of the haves and the have not.
But I think I think what we really don't want
is a situation in which really great education is available
to rich people.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Oh, you're right, and right now, that's where we're.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Headed're available to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
That's where we're headed. But here's the other We're definitely
we're there, man. And I'll tell you something that's terrible
worries me is that, first of all. I discussed this
with my kids too. The trades are underutilized. There was
such a push my kids got to go to college.
My kids got to go to college. And I'm looking
at my electrician who's making two hundred thousand dollars a
(21:50):
year or more so the trades. I've heard there's a
rebirth in the trades, which I think is great because
we certainly need it. But also when I think it
comes to college education, you know, or what people need
to do in the workplace, it's a different world.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You know. A lot of it is technology.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
You have to be computer oriented, and maybe these kids
are because they grow up with it, you know. But
I think to be an average American worker now you
have to have a lot of tools in your toolkit.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yes, and I think that, you know, I feel like
knowing how to navigate the kind of things people know
how to do, you know, navigating Instagram, that's not quite enough.
I think you need, you know, some mathematical foundation. You
might need to know a little bit about coding. And
(22:42):
I think, as I said, those are the hardest things
to staff. I mean, those are the places where the
competition for teachers is intense, right, And the thing.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Is Cara started to cut off here.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But you know where you could make a living doing
manual labor and make a good living doing manual labor.
Now you've been replaced by automation. So you need to
know how to program the automation. You need to know
how to manage the AI. I guess that's what I'm saying.
Is I think that, And I don't consider necessarily the
trades like the trades like electricians, plumbers, and so forth.
I don't necessarily can consider that blue collar.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I don't think it. I don't think it is because
those guys crush it.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
But you know, if you talk about somebody that just
graduates from high school and gets a plue collar job,
are those jobs around anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Well? And also how good I mean, as you say,
being an electrician you can make a lot of money,
But how good are the systems that we have to
funnel people into those jobs? And how many really great
electricians are People also have to be taught to be
electricians or plumbers are an HVAC and so you all similarly,
(23:49):
you need some level of instruction. And I think one
of the things that was shocking to me reporting this
piece is that some people have very different ideas about teachers.
Some people think they're the greatest, some people don't respect them.
Almost if you ask people what do you care about
(24:10):
in life, almost everybody's first answer will be their children.
And so one of the incredible things to me is,
no matter what you think of teachers, we are clearly
facing a problem in which the pipeline is diminishing for teachers.
There's just not enough of them now. I mean, these
are the people who are going to be working with
(24:32):
your kids, who are going to be helping them to
succeed hopefully in life, and they're going away that no
matter what ideological background you come from, that should probably
concern you if you have children or care about any
children in your life.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
We are going to workshop that coming up next. Can
you hang on for one more segment?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
That's good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
We're going to workshop that with Kara Miller because I
don't think there's like one easy answer for that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Teachers, where are you?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
That's and also I'm going to take a shot at
us the parents next.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
To WBZ, It's Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Welcome back Gary for day and tonight. Where are all
the teachers going? Karen Miller joining us from the Boston
Globe having a group a great chat. So what's the solution, Kara,
how do we get them back?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Gosh? I mean it's hard not to put money front
and center, because I mean, you do. I mean, I
remember graduating from college and you know, like the consultings
firms came around and interviewed people, and you know, people
were interested in doing things on Wall Street, and you know,
(25:51):
these are these are difficult jobs to get right. But
I've never heard people say, you know what, I want
to be a con I think it would make me
so happy. That's not what I think. You know, money
is a big driver of decisions, and so I do
not think that, you know, to come back to the
(26:14):
numbers we were talking about the beginning teachers can make
twenty seven percent on average less than other college graduates,
and you can get almost anybody to do it. I
think that is you have to face that and and
and again. You know, we were talking about wealthy towns.
There are wealthy towns, and I heard about this on
(26:34):
the West Coast several years ago. I remember being at
a meeting several years on the West Coast and people,
I don't know, if you've heard of this. Maybe this
happens on the East Coast. I haven't heard about it,
but people in their public school districts, in wealthy places
would all contribute like eight thousand dollars a year or something.
And I remember saying, really, for public school, how do
(26:54):
you get people to do that? And they said, basically,
I don't know. Everybody does that. You're kind of like
shamed into doing it. But it provided an additional pool
of money to boost salaries to get good people. So
I do not think until we come up with a
way to pay teachers competitively, you're not going to get
(27:16):
the best enough people, and you're not going to get
the best people to want to be teachers.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
There's no doubt it starts with finance. Missus X blah
blah blah blah blah did this to me? They will, Well,
let's say, you know, made me stand in a corner
or gave me an app for it while you deserved it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That doesn't happen. Now. See, this is my whole philosophy.
Care that today's parent.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Feels how their child performs is a reflection of them,
which is crap. But they do like, oh, if my
child is struggling that makes me look bad. That's what
I feel. That's especially in my town. That's what I
feel is like, you know, keeping up with the Joneses.
You know, if my kid is a C student in
the the kids an A student, that's like they that's
(28:03):
the same as somebody having a bigger house than me,
And that's just ridiculous. So I think that parents blame teachers,
and I think they blame the school system as opposed
to being more supportive. And I think that's one of
the reasons why people don't teach, because parents are paying
in the ass.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah, I think you're certainly right that parents are more
sort of aggressive and as you indicate, like they push
back a lot more than they would have a generation
to go instead of sort of accepting like, oh well
you got to see on that. I guess you better
study harder next time. I wonder, though, if the finance
(28:47):
piece of it, you know, I think that money and
prestige often go hand in hand, and I kind of
wonder if teachers were paid more it was a very
elite job, very hard to get, if there'd be actually
parents would like uh, feel less inclined to do that,
(29:12):
and teachers might also just be like, listen, don't bother me, Like,
you know, you're lucky this kid has.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I wonder if the dynamic would change. And I know,
like in Finland, I think maybe twenty years ago, they
completely revamped teaching. It's it's now incredibly hard to get
to be a teacher. It's like getting into an Ivy
League school. And and so I think these things, like
the money, the prestige, the respect, they're kind of all
(29:40):
wrapped up in a package. And I think when you
can't really have one of them without the others, in
some ways, I that's.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
What I worry.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, no, I think so too, because then if you're
going to get paid more money than you're going to,
the quality of the teacher will be better, you know.
And I understand in that, But that's that's what I
see now. Like I feel teachers need to have more
power in the classroom. I think sometimes they're worried about
getting sued. I think the principals have to sit there
(30:13):
and they have to balance the parents and they have
to deal with the teachers. I mean, oh my god,
we're before you know, hey, if you get sent to
the principal's office, if I got sent to mister Down's
office or missus Knauer. I mean, oh boy, and that
got back to my house. Oh, there'd be hell to
pay now. It's like you get sent to the principal's office.
Let me call my lawyer.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yes, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I think it is.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, there's gotta be there's gonna be something else there.
It's a problem, and it's gonna hurt the country. There's
no doubt about it. And unfortunately, I don't think our
government views this as an issue.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I really don't. I don't think there. I don't.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I I'm not gonna say it's like a pandemic or
it's catastrol. But you know, we have to worry about
the environment. We talked about the ozone level, the ozone layer,
no doubt about it. We have to take care of
the environment. The West Coast is burning. We have to
be more aware of these things. And the same thing
with education because probably not my generation, maybe not my
(31:19):
kids' generation, but it's going to screw this country, there's
no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It's going to screw us.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, I mean, you know, to your point, we just
went through a presidential election, and how much did you
hear anybody talking about education.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
No, they don't twelve education.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
You didn't hear it. I think I think you're right,
and it there's so much good evidence that people's lives
are profoundly affected by the kind of education they get,
so that if you have somebody who's poorer, who's more disadvantage,
but they get great instruction, it can change the trajectory
(31:57):
of their lives in some ways. It's so it's crazy
that we look away from that and say whatever, like,
let's just let the card, let's not pay people very much,
let the cards fall where they may, because we know
where the cards are going to fall. But it's so,
as you say, it's so essential to the future of
the country, and so the fact that we will go
through an election and nobody even talks about it, it
(32:20):
seems not good.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
We had a teacher and I'll wrap it up here.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I won't mention any names, but with our family structure,
we had one teacher that made a call to us
that said something's up, like something's going on, and we
were able to it was fine.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It was typical high school stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But we but this part and this person noticed the
behavior change. And we know with the stresses and the
insecurities and the pressure of high school and so forth.
And this teacher called us, And I'm telling you, man,
I mean, this dude was a difference maker, a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And to keep those peace people, you gotta pay them.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You gotta pay them because sooner or later they're gonna go. Well,
I can't keep doing this, you know, because I have
my own family to take care of. But I've seen
it where they make a difference. I've seen it with
this teacher called us and said I'm seeing something. We
were able to nip it in the butt and take.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Care of it.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So it matters, and it's and it's a problem, and
it's just not it's not an electable thing. You know,
it's not a hot button. It's not make America great again.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
You know, should be right, of course, it should beat again.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Well, I mean, if you think about it, if you
think about some of the foreign powers, you know, yes,
why why are they Why.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Are there other powerful countries in the world. It's not
because they have bigger missiles or they may have the bomb.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It's because their kids are smarter, people are smarter, people
are working. There's a work ethic, there's it, there's there's
it's brain power.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That's the thing that's going to control the world. Anyways,
I'm done. You brought the best. Yeah, thank you, Kara.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
No, you're tortually right. And I have to say, one
of the lucky things we've had up to this point
is that we've been able to poach a lot of
those smart people from other places. It's not just American smart.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
There's no question you are.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
No, they don't know no, right right, absolutely, because it's
a democracy and the lifestyle is better here. I mean, obviously,
if you have if you have a brilliant person that
graduates from China, comes from China or kind of maybe
comes from various countries and they're.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Brilliant, of course they want to live here. So is
that what we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
We're just going to keep I mean, I don't well
outsource our teachers or you know, I don't know, which
is fine. I mean, that's what that's what this country
is built on. You know, Oh my god, let's not
get an immigration will be here all night. But I mean,
but but you're right. I mean, it's a land of opportunity.
Will you come here and you can you can you
can make a life here. But you're right, there's no doubt.
(34:52):
I mean, if I'm a teacher in China and I'm brilliant,
I'd rather be here.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, But but I also think I do that. I
mean for our tech I mean, you look at who's
in Silicon Melly, if you know, for our tech companies,
we can get leaders from other places, and we often do.
But I don't think we don't want to foreclose the
opportunities from you know, over people from Missouri and Course
(35:17):
and Springfield, And I mean, you don't want to do that.
And that's that's kind of the path we're on.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, I know, we got to make teaching cool again.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Karen, a great job, Boston Globe, Karen Miller, thank you
for joining us, and you have a good night.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Okay, care take care. Wow, I need that was a lot.
I had a lot to say about that. If you
guys want to jump on, I got a few minutes
at six one, seven thirty. If there are any teachers
out there, if there are people that were thinking, if
you were you thinking about being a teacher and now.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You oh, I need to make a little more money
than that.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Or you were a teacher and you gave it up
or you are a teacher and you love it. I
would love to hear from you at six, one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty right here on WBC. Still to come, Dan
Shaw want to see the Boston Globe at ten thirty
talking about Bob Buker and our correspondent from the West Coast,
Sam Metler on Trump and the fact that this country
(36:11):
is on fire and that's just that's literally, that's all
coming up tonight on wbz's Nightside.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Karen Miller joining us at Boston Globe and white people
don't want to be teachers anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It is a problem, folks.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Big Time sixty coming up at ten o'clock. Tory Champagne
joins us from ESPN Entertainment. Uh Toy is a television director,
a producer. We're going to talk about some cool things
that you can watch. Just a couple of guys talking
about some severance. We're gonna talk about severans. I don't
(36:52):
get it. The show scares the hell out of me.
He loves it. We'll discuss it. SNL fifty I did
see that and I loved it. So we'll talk that
about that coming up at ten o'clock right here on WBC. Okay,
what do we do? What do we do about the
teaching situation? Let's go to Paul in Watertown if I
can get this right. Hey, Paul, you're up on WBZ.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Thanks for taking the call. Sarah, So, I thought about
becoming a teacher, but I knew thirty five years ago
I wouldn't be able to navigate educational politics. But that's
not really my point. My point is is that it's
not just an education it's economy wide, the labor shortage,
and it's not because of work ethic. Okay. Dan had
(37:37):
on the other night a guy from an outfit called
Samurai Success, and all they were talking about is, oh,
just how nobody wants to work. Well, listen here, people
in the United States of America, we work more hours
and we take less vacation time than any other industrialized
country in the world. Okay. The reason why people, the
(37:58):
reason why white men, particular between their mid twenties and
the early fifties, don't want to work, it's because they
would be It's because the American workplace is a seating cauldron.
Of toxic abuse and nonsense. That's why we have such
a high workplace homicide rate in this country. I've been abused,
and I am a commercial truck driver, a driver, a
(38:19):
track to trailer. I have an awesome work record, Okay.
I work in an industry without not just with a
labor shortage. I work in an industry with an acute,
enduring labor shortage. Okay, what it's just a labor shortage.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You can't find?
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Yeah, And I'll tell you. I'll tell you why that is.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I love what I'm doing it and I got a
good gig. Okay, but it's all load pay, piece pay.
Is very few unionized hourly jobs in the trucking industry anymore,
and people would rather live in newly impoverished destitution in
their parents' basements and be subjected to the violence and
(39:02):
the abuse of the American workplace. I am so sick
and tired of hearing that people don't want to work.
I'm tired of it. It's nonsense, and people will do
everything possible to avoid actually talking about why people don't
want to work.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well, how come they don't? Why? Why? Then?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Why? For example, the restaurant industry has taken a major
hit where you will go in and now say I
was in a place and nothing fancy, just a typical
restaurant where the waiter said, look, we only have two
people on tonight.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We can only serve half the tables.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Why is that, Excuse me, Because because we're a low
wage economy, okay, and because people want to be you know,
paid on honest day's living for an honest day's work. Okay,
(39:59):
we have we have, you know, three people, three families
in the country control like seventy percent of the wealth
that people don't like to hear this, and it's not
class warfare, okay, well it is class warfare. It's the
class warfare of the of the morbidly rich against the
rest of us. Okay, this is this is insane. People
(40:23):
in this country we work more hours and take less
vacation time than any other industrialized country in the world.
People want the dignity of work and livelihood and providing
for their families, but they would rather be poor and
have their dignity than be abused. This is why somewhere
in the United States of America, several times a week,
(40:44):
almost every day, somebody takes a loaded firearm to their
workplace and kills, the kills their supervisors and their coworkers.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Well, Paul, I do think I work for it.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Do your research.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I do appreciate the phone call on this, and I
think that if you were to look at the work ethic,
I think you have to break it down demographically. I
think over a certain age group, you still have a
work ethic. Beneath a certain age level, it's not as
great as it once was. Michael Shrewsbury, you only get
a minute or two, buddy, you're on WBC's Night Side.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Hello, Mike, Oh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
I didn't realize I was. I apolog So. I want
to touch on something that you mentioned a little while ago,
as far as the kids. Okay, students you mentioned, you know,
called the principal's opposite. You need to call the lawyer
or whatever, right right, gips. These some chips, these they
(41:40):
have done all but some of them they have this
mentality that because of their age, they're just untouchable, are
they They kind of slot that.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Oh there's no doubt. I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
There's there's is it accountability is there's a fear that
doesn't exist anymore. I mean I just remember for talking
to the library. I got sent to mister Downs's office,
and it's scared to, you know, crap out of me.
I don't know if that happens anymore. I don't know
if that fear is still there. Kids know their rights.
(42:19):
That's a problem, Mike. Thanks for the phone call, buddy.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Boy.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I just when I hear myself sometimes I sound like
just old bastard radio.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
But I think it's true. I think it's true. That
wraps up our topic on the teachers. Teachers. I applaud you,
the teachers in my town. I applaud you.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I hope that we can fix this situation because I
think it's detrimental to the future of our country that
teachers need to be paid appropriately, they need to be
compensated appropriately, and quite frankly, they need to get.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Some of their power back, all right.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Coming up next yere on WZ got to talk to Tory
Sharpaine about some of the coolest thing Instead of watching
on that, we're watching a television Dad Shaughnessy, I missed
just a bit outside.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Bob Yuker coming up with ten thirty on WBC
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