February 14, 2025 • 39 mins
We began the program with four interesting guests on topics we think you should know more about!
Guests this hour included:
Local Historian and Lecturer Anthony Sammarco, author of “Valentine’s Day Traditions in Boston,” discussing the history of Valentine's Day.
Robert Siciliano, CEO of cybersecurity training company Protect Now, about the "Pig Butchering" scam.
Lennart Baardman, Assistant Professor of Technology and Operations at Michigan Ross School of Business, on product freebies vs. discounts and the psychology behind them.
Jeff Lenard, National Association of Convenience Stores VP of Media & Strategic Communications, on how consumers feel about losing the penny.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
Guests this hour included:
Local Historian and Lecturer Anthony Sammarco, author of “Valentine’s Day Traditions in Boston,” discussing the history of Valentine's Day.
Robert Siciliano, CEO of cybersecurity training company Protect Now, about the "Pig Butchering" scam.
Lennart Baardman, Assistant Professor of Technology and Operations at Michigan Ross School of Business, on product freebies vs. discounts and the psychology behind them.
Jeff Lenard, National Association of Convenience Stores VP of Media & Strategic Communications, on how consumers feel about losing the penny.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on de Bzy, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Nicole Davis, Happy Valentine's Day. I hope that you've had
a great one. There's still four hours left. You're going
to get off work and be able to celebrate, and
of course I will be here with all of you
for the next four hours. I hope all of you
will be here with me for the next four hours.
You know who also going to be long, Rob Brooks.
My name is Dan Ray. I'm the host of the show.
Rob is the producer, and he's back in Broadcast Central headquarters.
(00:28):
As we would say, can't even tell you where that is.
It's a super secret. You can only know it if
you're like the head of the CIA or Elon Musk
one or the other, you will know where Rob is.
Those are the only two people in the world that
know where Rob Brooks is. We have a great show
coming up tonight. We will begin at this hour with
four very interesting guests. We're going to start off with
(00:51):
my good friend Anthony Simarco. We're going to have some
commentary on the big stop the coup demonstration in Boston
today been at ten o'clock, going to talk about Valentine's
Day a little bit more in depth with award winning
photographer podcaster Carry Brett, who has had a very interesting career,
not only as a celebrity photographer people like Bill Belichick,
(01:16):
Conan O'Brien and others, but she's also a very interesting
life experience which has some relevance to Valentine's Day, which
is today and on this day. Her book her first book.
She's done photography books before, but this is her first
book called Shot at Love, a celebrity Photographer's unfiltered lens
(01:37):
on dating and finding love. We will talk to her
and we will have later on tonight Brushes, no, not
brushes with celebrity Grinds of Gears, my second favorite twentieth
Hour subject and first to start off tonight, one of
my favorite guests. We haven't had him on in full
meaning for an entire hour, and we've got have to
(01:58):
do that fairly soon. Great local historian Anthony Somarco, who's
going to explain to us the inception of Valentine's Day,
which started, I guess Anthony rather close to Boston in
the second largest city of New England and Worcester. How
are you this evening? Happy Valentine's Day, Anthony.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And same to you. How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
We're doing just great. Let me tell you, I'm ready
to go here four more hours and it's Saturday morning.
So I guess Valentine's Day got it start. I didn't
realize it got it start in Worcester.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well that's true. I mean there was a woman by
the name of Esther Howland. She had been a graduate
of Mount Holy Of College in eighteen forty seven. And
the funny thing was her father was an importer of
different things to its stationary store in Worcester. One of
the things that she saw were English made Valentines. And
because she was an enterprising young lady, it turned out
(02:57):
that by the eighteen fifties she was making val times
by hand. They were so beautifully done that they would
take anywhere from one day to two to finish. And
this is a woman that would revolutionize it.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah wow.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
And she would actually have a group of women that
would work as an assembly line.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Is there. Well, it's sort of like henry Ford before
Henry Ford very much. Tell any record as to what
she must have charged for these works of art. I mean,
you know today, surprisingly.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Today they are works and they're actually in the collection
of Mount Holyo Archives. But at the time she was
charging between fifty cents and a dollar. These were handmade,
labor intensive valentines, but that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Would try, he said, in those days, that was some
real money, Anthony. It was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
There'd be about ten to fifteen dollars today, And by
the eighteen sixties and eighteen seventies, this was a woman
that was garnering one hundred thousand dollars a year year.
So she wasn't just a Valentine card maker. But she
even created a book called The Sentimental Valentine Writer for
Ladies and Gentlemen. And what it was was that people
(04:12):
who were tongue tied that could actually not imagine writing,
you know, sentimental verse. She had a cheat sheet you
could actually copy from it. So she created an empire
that would be one of many. There were three different
companies in Wooster at that time just making Valentines. So
(04:34):
by the eighteen seventies her Valentine company was something that
was probably the best known in the United States.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So she was making one hundred thousand dollars either during
or shortly after the Civil War. Long before Babe Ruth
made one hundred thousand dollars and Ted Williams made one
hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, I suppose if they were actually playing baseball for love,
maybe they would have. This was a woman that knew
what she was doing, and she had widows and spinsters
and young women before they married, all working for her
in a factory. And what she was doing in some
ways was creating the greeting card industry. And during the
(05:18):
twentieth century they had established an award called the Esther
Howland Award for a greeting card Visionary and it's given
in her honor every year. But when we think of
a card in the eighteen forties and fifties and sixties,
they were beautifully done. But what they have represented is
in this day and age that over two hundred and
(05:40):
fifty million Valentine's a cent worldwide for February fourteenth.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
It's amazing. I mean when you think back, when you
do the research as you have done, and you realize
that that's something that again is popular as Valentine's Day started. Now,
was Valentine's Day in existence before she started making cards?
Or did she bring Valentine's Day into existence? And again,
(06:11):
you know me Anthony, I asked questions that I'm not
sure that answer, So.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I'm glad you said that. Well, in ancient Rome they
had a festival called Lupa Carlia, and Lupa Carlia basically
dealt with the loopa or the wolf that actually had
suckled Robulus agreements the founders of Rome.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It was a peg the emblem, as you know, that
is the emblem of Boston Latin School.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I know, yes, and I have one actually sitting in
the parlor that we bought in Rome. But the idea
was Claudius Gothagus, who was a pagan emperor of ancient Rome,
became friendly with Saint Valentine. But Saint Valentine wanted to
Christianize him, and the emperor had him beheaded on February
fourteenth of two sixty nine AD. So you began to
(06:58):
realize in some ways that the whole Saint Valentine was
truly a saint of the church. He was somebody in
some ways that was martyred because of his Christianity. So
what they decided to do was to create a new
festival on the same date as Lupecalia, and now they
(07:19):
were honoring Saint Valentine not only the saint of courtly love,
but Saint Valentine represents the saint of epilepsy, beekeepers, travelers,
and fainting, and people began to realize even in ancient times,
Saint Valentine was somebody who in many ways was quite
well known. But it really wouldn't be until the early
(07:41):
nineteenth century that we began to see England, especially with
Cupid factories, as Charles Dickens would call them, of people
working in an assembly line to create these beautiful Valentine's
Day cards, and really the whole concept was it was
something that would actually, in the twentieth century become probably
(08:04):
one of the biggest of the holidays, and probably just
secondary to Easter and Christmas.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I can remember as being a little kid, you know,
in the third grade, the second grade, and your parents
would buy you a pack of these maybe fifty Valentine
Day's card and you the nuns would make us write
out Valentine's to all the kids in class, and you
learned the codship.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
It was a big deal. But you know the odd
thing is, you know, in my book on Valentine's Day,
traditions involved, and I also talk about things like Salah's
Valentine's Vinegar Valentine's and Crampus Valentine's as well as candy.
And you know, when we think of Valentine's Day candy,
it was Cadbury that created the heart shaped bonon bond
(08:55):
box and it would later be carried further by Shrafts,
which was at Sullivan Square in Childstown and even today
Phillips Chocolates and Donchas there.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, there's no one who knows the traditions of Boston
and the history of Boston better than my guest Anthony Simarco.
Where how could folks go to your website and perhaps
maybe pick up a couple of these books? Anthony, What's
what's the easiest way for folks to track you down?
Because I'll get twenty phone calls on Monday or Tuesday
(09:26):
saying how do I give mister so Marco's books?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And if you work, I mean they're available on Amazon
dot com. That's probably the best. I don't have a website,
but if they also go to Facebook they google my name.
I always put down exactly what books I'm working on
and where my elections are. So this has been a
busy week for Valentine's Day tradition.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Believe, but I'll bet the last name is spelled SA
double M. Got to get the double M in there,
ar CEO. Anthony's Marco Anthony. Always great to hear your voice.
Always great to talk with you. I so enjoy talking
with you. And we'll get you on somenight and maybe
take some phone calls at some point in the not
(10:09):
too just in the future. Fair enough, thanks Anthony. Right,
we get back, going to talk about something called pig butchering.
It's not what you think. It's a scam and it's something.
It's an ugly scam. Not that there are any handsome scams.
We're going to talk with Roberts Cissis Leano. He's the
(10:32):
CEO of cybersecurity training company called protect Now. And this
is serious. You need to listen to this because during
the last five years, about seventy five billion dollars has
been globally lost through pig butchering scams. We'll explain it
all on the other side of the break here on
nights side on Valentine's Day Night twenty twenty five. My
(10:53):
name is Dan Ray. You were listening to w BZ
Boston's news Radio ten thirty and your am dial coming
right back after this quick break.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I'm WBZ News Radio. We're with us is Robert Sciliano.
He's the CEO of cybersecurity training company called protect Now. Robert,
I had never heard of the phrase pig butchering, but
having read up on a little bit, I understand why
it's called pig butchering. How are you? How are you tonight?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So Robert, tell us about this. It says pig butchering
scams are on the rise, and I think that you're
suggesting that I don't know. In the last five years,
one study says that seventy five billion dollars globally was
lost through these scams. Tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So this is when. Okay, So I think everybody at
this point gets a text message at least a couple
of times a day, and that text might be like hello,
or is this Robert? Or hey, I'm sorry I didn't
call you earlier or something like that, like just some
(12:11):
innocuous lame well few words. Yeah, like the whole idea
behind these text messages that we get and First of all,
these texts are coming from you know, robots, right. There
isn't generally like a human actually sending that text. That's
done via robo calling. And they just blasted out millions
(12:35):
and millions of text messages every single day. And why
the Federal Communications Commission hasn't shut them down? I don't know.
Maybe they can't, I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, that is my question, Robert, absolutely, because there have
been politicians who have including some from Massachusetts, who have
pledged that when I go to Washington, I will stop
these phone calls and these text messages. But I interrupted you,
and I didn't mean to. I think it's a great
clear explanation. Continue please, yeah, so sorry.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So all these text messages that we get on a
regular basis, they are designed for one reason and one
reason only to get us to respond, that's it. And
so once we respond, who's this, I'm not sure who
you're calling or it's Robert, you know, did you mean
(13:28):
to call me? Like the whole idea is simply to
get us to respond, and once we respond, then a
human might engage from that point on on the other end.
And what that means is like the idea behind the
initial response is that they're they're seeking dialogue, they're seeking conversation, communication,
(13:52):
they're seeking to make a connection of some kind of
any kind, you know, and you know, and it does.
It doesn't mean that like like everybody's going to respond
because you know, maybe you don't respond. I definitely don't respond,
like I understand what's happening here. But you have to understand,
like there are a lot of people out there that
(14:12):
are just lonely, you know, Like loneliness is a very
real thing. It's a very unfortunate thing. And when people
are lonely, like they're just craving communication, they're craving attention.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And so the simple add human contact is what they're craving.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
It's it, you know, and that's where we're an interdependent
species and we require each other. You know.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So once they get you, once they get you, then
they'll start to get you involved in something that might
even initially get some money back for you, right they
kind of hook you.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
So yeah, well eventually, you know, but they might spend
weeks just talking, just texting, just communicating, just getting to
know you more, just getting deeper and deeper, just creating
a deeper and deeper human connection via text, you know,
(15:11):
And so what happens when what happens when you get
to know somebody, you begin to trust them, you know,
and as you as you as you spend more time
with somebody, And again this is just remotely it's via text,
but this time that this person is spending with you
is deepening the connection, the relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And so just to ask you one quick question, Okay,
the people who are talking to you, a lot of
this stuff comes from offshore. How good is their English?
Their their their colloquial English.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Well, at this point, with the basics like Google Translate
and AI, you know, and artificial intelligence, uh, in all
the various large language models, all these various tools, Uh,
it's no problem. You know, the scammer grammar is gone.
(16:05):
Like there's there's no need for scammer grammar. Right, Okay,
at this point they can communicate as effectively as you know,
anybody because they're using robots to do it that are
you know, eloquent and speak perfect English.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
And what they do and again just a little stretched
on time here. So what they do is they will
propose an investment of some sort and maybe you'll get
some money back initially and you think that even makes
you a little more confident, and then eventually they will
get your information and empty your accounts, abuse your credit card,
(16:49):
or maybe get you to get you to send them
a good amount of money and you get ghosted.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Right, they'll actually present you with links to actual live
web sites that show tickers in crypto coin, and they
show you know, the the gains and the money that
can be made, and they show that like this is
where I've made money. Like they'll they'll take it to
what would be considered like a legitimate website where they've
made investments in their money has just doubled and tripled,
(17:17):
and they say, hey, you know, like you know, if
you spend even only one hundred dollars, you could probably
make one hundred and fifty like in the next five
days and then make and they'll actually like invest one
hundred and fifty and then they'll get fifty back like
they can cash out, and like, whoa, this is crazy,
and so they'll it's it's it's it's just like a
(17:38):
Ponzi scam, and before you know it, like that one
hundred and fifty turns into you know, twenty thousand, and
over time they're investing, investing, investing, get a little bit back,
Get a little bit back, get a little bit back.
And what they're doing is they're they're fattening the victim up,
like when you satten up a peg and ually you
(17:59):
butcher rate.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, that's beautiful. You know, it's funny. I got to
ask you a real quick question. If I can't here,
so I get like everybody else, she gets scammed phone calls.
So I get a phone call today. I can tell
it's a delay. I can tell it's some form of
a pool of people. In the background. There's a lot
of noise, and they want to know, am I Am
I happy with my Exfinity bill. Now obviously they're looking
(18:24):
at me and say, oh, no, it's too much. But
all I say is, yeah, I'm very happy, and they
hang up. What is that scam they're going to try
to have you? You know? And you can tell by
the way this person's calling from somewhere I don't know,
East Moldolvia. This is a real person. But they have
an accent that like nothing I've ever heard. And they're
making a thousand phone calls and if ten, if ten hit,
(18:46):
they're ahead of the game.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Yeah, And they're looking for credit card information, they're looking
for any type of account numbers, they're looking for social
security numbers. They're looking to do anything and everything to
get you to sign on the dotted line to provide
any type of financial information or sensitive information that they
can eventually turn into cash.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Robert, you are one of the best cybersecurity people who
I've ever spoken with, and I've spoken with a lot.
I would love to get you to come back some
night and spend an hour with my listeners as well.
This segment is simply a quick interview segment. I'd love
to get you to come back if that's possible. That
possible anytime, buddy. Okay, Now, let me ask you this.
(19:32):
How can folks get in touch with you? How can
they get more information? You have a company called project Now.
Is there a website that people could follow up?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Yeah, it's actually protect now project now. Excuse me now LLC?
Yeah problem, Protect now LLC dot com. I'm actually in
the Boston area, so protect NOWLLC dot com.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Excellent. Excellent, that's even better, Robert, thank you very much.
I will have my producer get in touch with your
folks and let's let's do an hour in this somenight
and really this is not enough time to get as
much information out that we need to get out. And
you do a great job. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Be safe, sir, you too.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
All right, we get back right after the news at
the bottom of the hour, we're going to talk with
an assistant professor of Technology and Operations at the Michigan
University Ross Business School about Valentine Day's gift Valentine's Day
gifts and again it comes down it's kind of like
(20:36):
a scam. You was Sokker for the free gift with purchase.
We'll explain right after the news break at the bottom
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's Night with Dan Ray on Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, following on our Valentine's Day scheme, we are delighted
to introduce to Professor Lennart Bardman. He's a professor Technology
and Operations at the University of Michigan Ross Business School.
Professor Bartman, welcome to Nightsatt. How are you.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Thank you for having me Dan.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I'm doing very well. It's a wonderful nay, so happy
you tho to welcome.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
We were just talking with a cybersecurity expert. Sort of
the theme that we have going tonight and not only
is a Valentine's Day theme, but also how people have
to be smart and protect themselves. And you asked the question,
I think you even might have done a survey as
to on customer loyalty. More than seventy percent of customers
(21:35):
say that they would prefer to get a gift a
free gift as opposed to a discount. Why is that
comparison important? I think I know the answer, but I
just want my audience to understand what we are actually
discussing here.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yes, I didn't do that research myself, but that's a
very striking number. Seventy percent is a vault. The reason
for that mostly is that when you're given a free gift,
you feel that you know you're getting something that you
didn't have to pay anything for, So it's it's kind
of that psychological benefit. And the benefit of that is
(22:14):
that if you were to just get a discount, you'd
feel like, Okay, I'm still getting what I'm getting, but
I'm getting it at a slightly reduced price. It's nothing
that extraordinary. So it's really the difficult the different way
of feeling about that that that gift versus a discount.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Important. Not all that significant, I think, is what you found.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
That's correct. Yes, So let you would imagine going to
Sophora today on Valentine's Day and buying some perfume. Let's
say that costs one hundred dollars, and then you get
a ten dollar free lotion with it. But maybe you
don't actually care about that ten dollar free lotion and
you prefer to just have a ninety dollars perfume instead,
because those ten dollars are saved and you can spend
(22:55):
on something else. Normally, these free gifts are not the
kind of samples. They're not really that much worth to
the original item the church for buying. That's something that
posts people don't see.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So it's a psychological response as opposed to an intellectual response,
is what I'm hearing you say that. If you think
about it, you'll probably say the free gift's probably not
going to be great, and I'd rather save my actual
money in my pocket and get ten percent off. But
people don't think that way. I think is so there's
(23:29):
some psychology as well as economics involved here.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
Yeah, there's psychology, there's economics. There's also for the retailer. Actually,
the reason they like these free gifts is that they
can keep the perceived value of an item very high. So,
if you see a perfume that costs one hundred dollars,
you think that the quality is better than a perfume that, say,
costs eighty dollars or ninety dollars. And so if you
(23:54):
keep the price of the perfume at one hundred dollars
and then give away a ten dollar free lotion or
twenty dollars free ocean, let's say, it seems like that
perfume still has that very high quality that you originally
assumed when you saw that price, and so it's like
a it's a good way for retailer to trick you
a little bit into spending a little bit more than
(24:14):
you might want to.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, Now this is interesting to me because at some
point the retail industry must have figured this out, and
I'm assuming that they probably figured it out with smart
graduates of various business schools around the country that Harvard
Business School or Warden or Sloan or Kellogg or Ross
(24:37):
Correct or Ross.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Yeah, exactly. Our students are the ones that go into
these businesses and they work in say the marketing or
the operations departments and they try to see if they
can create better deals that would work. And that's something
that you know, we we partially teach, but we also
try to research and see what what what what that's about.
(24:59):
But yeah, that's that that's happens. Yeah, for sure, it's
just a part of my research.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So yeah, like.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
My research actually largely focuses on how can you use
data to make better decisions? So how can we use
the data if we collect about the customers through these
retail stores and see if we can personalize the deals
to the customer, or can we maybe personalize the price
to the customer, or where we what we offer them
in the assortment. And part of that, of course, can
(25:31):
feel a little bit like we're trying to trick the customer.
The part of that is also you're trying to give
the customer what they would like to have, right, You're
trying to show them what they might be interested in.
It's a different way of viewing the problem. But that's
that's kind of what my research focuses on.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So now, is that why a lot of businesses are
asking people for they'll ask questions about their privaces. Our
businesses actually compile knowing information on individuals. Are they taking
information from individuals and compiling sort of a profile at
(26:07):
their customers.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
They're doing both, So this is actually really good question.
So in most cases, businesses don't have enough data about
a specific person to be able to say like, oh,
this is what they really want. Most of what they
can do is they can segment their customer base into say, okay,
these are men from Boston that like a certain that
(26:30):
like certain TVs, for example, and then we should offer
them these particular items. And it's not really at the
individual level yet. Most of the algorithms are not that
good yet. But you know, with the generative AI that
is being produced in the large language models that are
being produced, more and more of the retail firms are
(26:51):
collecting data that might be able to really offer you
what they think is specifically what you would like to
see on their website, and maybe that can seem as
that they're trying to get you to buy a more item.
So they can also be that, well, if you're looking
for a dress, maybe we should just show you the
dress that you would like to see, similar to like
(27:13):
how Netflix shows you the movies you would like to watch.
So there's a, there's kind of a two sided story
to that.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, well, this reminds me very much of political polling.
In other words, they do polling obviously, and they have
to get even to do the entire country. They get
a thousand or twelve hundred or fifteen hundred people, a
very small group of people. But if they balance it
properly between men and women, people of all different backgrounds, younger, older,
(27:42):
et cetera, they can get a pretty good idea of
a of a large of a big election, even up
to a presidential election. So you're right. If there's a
product that they feel their target is twenty something men,
they know that every twenty seven twenty something man may
(28:04):
not buy that product, it may not be interested in
that product, but a significant number of those twenty somethings
will be. Same way with a politician, they'll say, well,
we're going to appeal to twenty something men because this
will be the candidate's position X on issues you know,
ABC and D. They're not going to get every one
of the votes, but they will know that that is
(28:26):
a rich part of the electorate that they can that
they can dig down on yes and help themselves an
election day it's kind of a similar thing or my
way off.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
No, it's a similar thing. You're trying to find the
groups of people that would like certain things and show
them right stuff, and you're just trying to only average,
do a good job. Right as a retailer, you would
like to sell your items, and you could ever know
exactly who's going to buy a bit on average, you
might be doing a good job. There's a little bit
of a difference with poling, though, because in polling it
(28:58):
is just expensive to get all the data right. You
need to call the people, you need to maybe have
surveys to figure that out. In the case of most
of these retailers, what they have is they have some
you know, loyalty program or a loyalty card or some
credit card that you can get with them, and then
because you sign up for that, they can just collect
data about you, follow points and keep tending you the
(29:19):
deals and promotions and things that they think might be
useful to you. So instead of collecting data from a
very small group, very detailed, what retailers tend to do
is they tend to basically collect data about all their
customers at a very broad level, and using that data
they can then segment their customers and kind of figure
out which customers they should target with certain items or
(29:41):
certain prices or certain promotions.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Great information, professor, this was very interesting. Again, I'm more
of a political guy, and that's where we do a
lot of politics here, and I'm always trying to find
some similarities between whatever issue we're talking about, and you've
made it very clear that there's some there's some some similarities,
but also some distinctions. I think it'd be a great
(30:06):
professor in class. Thank you so much for taking some time.
Is there is there any website that that you could
that you might like to refer my listeners to. Oftentimes
when folks come on, they've written a book or they
have a paper that they'd like people to see. Anything
that we can we can help you, or or the
business the Ross Business School raise their profile well, just.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
In general, if you're interested in learning more about what
the business school community does. Right, there's nice academic journals
about that, but that's a little bit too much to read.
So instead, what we do as a say the school
is it if you go to our website of the
business there will be nice articles that are written by
journalists about what we as professors have figured out in
our research, and they're made in a way that they
(30:51):
should be easy to understand, and anyone that works in
in you know, the business world should be able to
grasp some important insights from those articles. So it'd highly
advise you to go to the Michigan Ross website and
have a look at if there's anything that's useful for
your job.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Thank you very much, Professor Leonard Boardman, Thank you so much, professor.
We'll talk again.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Valentine's Day.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Same right back at you as well. To you and yours.
Thank you. Coming up on the other side, we're going
to talk with a representative the National Association to Convenience
Stores about the disappearance of the penny, and I suspect
the impact of the disappearing penny might really have a
tremendous impact on convenience stores who deal in cash on
(31:38):
a basis of their transactions, a much higher basis of
cash transactions at convenience stores than other stores. We'll explain
when we come back. And we talked earlier this week
about getting rid of the penny because it's too expensive
to produce, and now we'll talk about the impact that
we'll have on consumers. Back on night Side right after
this break.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Now, Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side
Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
We talked earlier this week during the eight o'clock hour
about the elimination of the sacred penny. Now, who will
that impact? Jeff Leonard from the National Association of Convenience Stores,
he's the vice president of Media and Strategic Communications, believes
that it'll have probably a great impact on the group
he represents convenience stores. Jeff Leonard, Welcome to Night's Side.
(32:30):
Why will this have an impact more so on convenience stores?
Speaker 6 (32:35):
So there's been a lot of great reporting looking at
you know, what does the cost of the penny and
what does that do? What we can add context and
is talking about what happens in stores. Convenience stores have
about one hundred and fifty million transactions a day. Of
that total, one third or fifty two million our cash.
(32:55):
So we're looking at it from the time standpoint. How
much time would you save if you're not counting out pennies?
Because when you go to convenience stores, the first thing
you want is convenience in and out really fast. And
we're focused on can we make it a little faster,
and that's where the elimination of penny comes in as
an issue that we want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So you sounds to me like you think that might
be a good idea.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Well, it has to be something consumers want, and we
have done some surveys. We did some surveys last week
before President Trump's announcement. And when we initially asked customers
or consumers and a national survey, would you like to
get rid of the penny, just flat out that only
about one third said yes, about thirty six percent. But
(33:42):
then we started explaining to them in the survey it
would save money, it would speed up transactions. This is
what you don't have more pennies sitting.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Around, Jeff. This is what we call push polling in politics.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Right now.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
It wasn't It wasn't that. It was more to see
what were the triggers not to use that. No, I
know exactly what you're talking about, but I know, of
course everything. Everything increased, and the winning message was pennies
will save money for the government. The one that I
thought would win would be the time, but that didn't.
(34:15):
But they all bumped up and you were over fifty
percent now with people saying yeah, sounds like a good idea,
So we continue to look at the issue.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
So here's my question. Okay, when this first came out,
I thought to myself, Okay, the ninety nine cent candy barge.
Using this as a hypothetical, they'll charge us now a
dollar for it, So no one, no prices will be
rounded would be rounded down, They'll all be rounded up.
I understand that. Okay, ninety nine cents for dollar, but
when you add in sales tax. Here in Massachusetts, we're
(34:44):
now starting to talk about taxing candy, which for a
long time was not taxable, and with a six percent
sales tax, boom, it's going to be a dollar six
You're still gonna have pennies to deal with. You know what,
when pennies are gone, and maybe they'll never be gone
in our lifetime, how do you deal with that fractionalization.
(35:05):
If it's below three cents, you'd round down, If it's
about three cents, you round up.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Well, Fortunately, we have some examples from Canada. Canada stop
minting the penny in twenty twelve and stopped accepting pennies
a year later. So I talked to some retailers and
some customers in Canada. See how did they deal with it?
How did it work? Basically, the if you pay by
(35:32):
debit or credit card, no change. If you pay by cash,
it's after tax, and if it's a one or two
cents that you'd normally get back. Well, first off, twenty,
if you look at one hundred possible transactions we get changed,
twenty of them aren't changed. That'd be the five, ten, fifteen, twenty,
et cetera. Forty of them would be rounded down and
(35:54):
that would be the ones like eleven would go to ten,
twelve go to eleven, et cetera, and that would save
sixty cents. Sixty cents would be taken out of circulation,
and then forty transactions would go up, and that would
be the thirteen would go to fifteen, the fourteen would
go to fifteen, et cetera, and that would save another
one hundred and forty pennies. Now, the first question I
(36:17):
got was won't this require a lot more nickels? Won't
this require a lot more dimes? And in looking at
the math, believe it or not, there would be no
extra nickels used on average. There would be no extra
dimes used on average. Two hundred pennies would be taken
out of circulation for every hundred transactions, but eight quarters
(36:38):
would be added. So there's the two dollars versus two dollars.
So if you don't like pennies, that's good. If you
like quarters, whether it's for laundry or whatever, that's good.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
What did people in Canada do when they said we're
not going to we're not going to any longer except pennies.
I know a lot of people had their penny collections
at that point. They just be stuck with them.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
Correct, Well, there's a gary you can trade. I mean
you can go to one of those machines where you
get redemption.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I heard an interesting phrase.
Speaker 6 (37:10):
Somebody said I expected there to be more emotional payload
with this, and he said it was surprisingly okay, it
just was yeah, we really didn't notice. And now I
don't have that jar at any sitting around.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You know, you know who loses out of this as well,
and we probably have forgotten about him, Abe Lincoln.
Speaker 6 (37:33):
He does, and anybody that knows nineteen oh nine SVDB
coin collectors, etc. You know, there's also round up programs
things like that, where people may may stick a couple
of pennies in a collection jar or something like that.
All kinds of things will have to change. But yeah,
things happen, They certainly do.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Look, I really enjoyed the conversation, Jeff. If someone wants
to get more information about your company or your your organization,
how can they find you?
Speaker 6 (38:03):
Well, National Association of Convenience Stores conveniences in our name,
So we made that our website convenience dot org, and
you can find me on the website if you want
to talk, whether you want to tell me I'm right
or tell me I'm wrong, or just give me new
insights as we go down this path.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Sounds great, Jeff Leonard spelled e n A a ar
D l E n ar D National Association of Convenience So,
as vice president of Media and Strategic Communications, you did
a great job for us. You made a complex problem
easily easy to understand, and I thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Thanks, Jeff, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
All Right, we'll get back. We're going to talk about
a demonstration in Boston today. I suspect we're going to
be seeing more of these in the weeks and months ahead,
in my opinion, and we're going to take a little
bit of a deep dive into the demonstration and who
was involved and what they were looking for and maybe
what their actual purpose is. Stay with us on Nightside.
(39:01):
We'll be back right after the nine o'clock news
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on de Bzy, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Nicole Davis, Happy Valentine's Day. I hope that you've had
a great one. There's still four hours left. You're going
to get off work and be able to celebrate, and
of course I will be here with all of you
for the next four hours. I hope all of you
will be here with me for the next four hours.
You know who also going to be long, Rob Brooks.
My name is Dan Ray. I'm the host of the show.
Rob is the producer, and he's back in Broadcast Central headquarters.
(00:28):
As we would say, can't even tell you where that is.
It's a super secret. You can only know it if
you're like the head of the CIA or Elon Musk
one or the other, you will know where Rob is.
Those are the only two people in the world that
know where Rob Brooks is. We have a great show
coming up tonight. We will begin at this hour with
four very interesting guests. We're going to start off with
(00:51):
my good friend Anthony Simarco. We're going to have some
commentary on the big stop the coup demonstration in Boston
today been at ten o'clock, going to talk about Valentine's
Day a little bit more in depth with award winning
photographer podcaster Carry Brett, who has had a very interesting career,
not only as a celebrity photographer people like Bill Belichick,
(01:16):
Conan O'Brien and others, but she's also a very interesting
life experience which has some relevance to Valentine's Day, which
is today and on this day. Her book her first book.
She's done photography books before, but this is her first
book called Shot at Love, a celebrity Photographer's unfiltered lens
(01:37):
on dating and finding love. We will talk to her
and we will have later on tonight Brushes, no, not
brushes with celebrity Grinds of Gears, my second favorite twentieth
Hour subject and first to start off tonight, one of
my favorite guests. We haven't had him on in full
meaning for an entire hour, and we've got have to
(01:58):
do that fairly soon. Great local historian Anthony Somarco, who's
going to explain to us the inception of Valentine's Day,
which started, I guess Anthony rather close to Boston in
the second largest city of New England and Worcester. How
are you this evening? Happy Valentine's Day, Anthony.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And same to you. How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
We're doing just great. Let me tell you, I'm ready
to go here four more hours and it's Saturday morning.
So I guess Valentine's Day got it start. I didn't
realize it got it start in Worcester.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well that's true. I mean there was a woman by
the name of Esther Howland. She had been a graduate
of Mount Holy Of College in eighteen forty seven. And
the funny thing was her father was an importer of
different things to its stationary store in Worcester. One of
the things that she saw were English made Valentines. And
because she was an enterprising young lady, it turned out
(02:57):
that by the eighteen fifties she was making val times
by hand. They were so beautifully done that they would
take anywhere from one day to two to finish. And
this is a woman that would revolutionize it.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah wow.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
And she would actually have a group of women that
would work as an assembly line.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Is there. Well, it's sort of like henry Ford before
Henry Ford very much. Tell any record as to what
she must have charged for these works of art. I mean,
you know today, surprisingly.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Today they are works and they're actually in the collection
of Mount Holyo Archives. But at the time she was
charging between fifty cents and a dollar. These were handmade,
labor intensive valentines, but that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Would try, he said, in those days, that was some
real money, Anthony. It was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
There'd be about ten to fifteen dollars today, And by
the eighteen sixties and eighteen seventies, this was a woman
that was garnering one hundred thousand dollars a year year.
So she wasn't just a Valentine card maker. But she
even created a book called The Sentimental Valentine Writer for
Ladies and Gentlemen. And what it was was that people
(04:12):
who were tongue tied that could actually not imagine writing,
you know, sentimental verse. She had a cheat sheet you
could actually copy from it. So she created an empire
that would be one of many. There were three different
companies in Wooster at that time just making Valentines. So
(04:34):
by the eighteen seventies her Valentine company was something that
was probably the best known in the United States.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So she was making one hundred thousand dollars either during
or shortly after the Civil War. Long before Babe Ruth
made one hundred thousand dollars and Ted Williams made one
hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, I suppose if they were actually playing baseball for love,
maybe they would have. This was a woman that knew
what she was doing, and she had widows and spinsters
and young women before they married, all working for her
in a factory. And what she was doing in some
ways was creating the greeting card industry. And during the
(05:18):
twentieth century they had established an award called the Esther
Howland Award for a greeting card Visionary and it's given
in her honor every year. But when we think of
a card in the eighteen forties and fifties and sixties,
they were beautifully done. But what they have represented is
in this day and age that over two hundred and
(05:40):
fifty million Valentine's a cent worldwide for February fourteenth.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
It's amazing. I mean when you think back, when you
do the research as you have done, and you realize
that that's something that again is popular as Valentine's Day started. Now,
was Valentine's Day in existence before she started making cards?
Or did she bring Valentine's Day into existence? And again,
(06:11):
you know me Anthony, I asked questions that I'm not
sure that answer, So.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I'm glad you said that. Well, in ancient Rome they
had a festival called Lupa Carlia, and Lupa Carlia basically
dealt with the loopa or the wolf that actually had
suckled Robulus agreements the founders of Rome.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It was a peg the emblem, as you know, that
is the emblem of Boston Latin School.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I know, yes, and I have one actually sitting in
the parlor that we bought in Rome. But the idea
was Claudius Gothagus, who was a pagan emperor of ancient Rome,
became friendly with Saint Valentine. But Saint Valentine wanted to
Christianize him, and the emperor had him beheaded on February
fourteenth of two sixty nine AD. So you began to
(06:58):
realize in some ways that the whole Saint Valentine was
truly a saint of the church. He was somebody in
some ways that was martyred because of his Christianity. So
what they decided to do was to create a new
festival on the same date as Lupecalia, and now they
(07:19):
were honoring Saint Valentine not only the saint of courtly love,
but Saint Valentine represents the saint of epilepsy, beekeepers, travelers,
and fainting, and people began to realize even in ancient times,
Saint Valentine was somebody who in many ways was quite
well known. But it really wouldn't be until the early
(07:41):
nineteenth century that we began to see England, especially with
Cupid factories, as Charles Dickens would call them, of people
working in an assembly line to create these beautiful Valentine's
Day cards, and really the whole concept was it was
something that would actually, in the twentieth century become probably
(08:04):
one of the biggest of the holidays, and probably just
secondary to Easter and Christmas.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I can remember as being a little kid, you know,
in the third grade, the second grade, and your parents
would buy you a pack of these maybe fifty Valentine
Day's card and you the nuns would make us write
out Valentine's to all the kids in class, and you
learned the codship.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
It was a big deal. But you know the odd
thing is, you know, in my book on Valentine's Day,
traditions involved, and I also talk about things like Salah's
Valentine's Vinegar Valentine's and Crampus Valentine's as well as candy.
And you know, when we think of Valentine's Day candy,
it was Cadbury that created the heart shaped bonon bond
(08:55):
box and it would later be carried further by Shrafts,
which was at Sullivan Square in Childstown and even today
Phillips Chocolates and Donchas there.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, there's no one who knows the traditions of Boston
and the history of Boston better than my guest Anthony Simarco.
Where how could folks go to your website and perhaps
maybe pick up a couple of these books? Anthony, What's
what's the easiest way for folks to track you down?
Because I'll get twenty phone calls on Monday or Tuesday
(09:26):
saying how do I give mister so Marco's books?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And if you work, I mean they're available on Amazon
dot com. That's probably the best. I don't have a website,
but if they also go to Facebook they google my name.
I always put down exactly what books I'm working on
and where my elections are. So this has been a
busy week for Valentine's Day tradition.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Believe, but I'll bet the last name is spelled SA
double M. Got to get the double M in there,
ar CEO. Anthony's Marco Anthony. Always great to hear your voice.
Always great to talk with you. I so enjoy talking
with you. And we'll get you on somenight and maybe
take some phone calls at some point in the not
(10:09):
too just in the future. Fair enough, thanks Anthony. Right,
we get back, going to talk about something called pig butchering.
It's not what you think. It's a scam and it's something.
It's an ugly scam. Not that there are any handsome scams.
We're going to talk with Roberts Cissis Leano. He's the
(10:32):
CEO of cybersecurity training company called protect Now. And this
is serious. You need to listen to this because during
the last five years, about seventy five billion dollars has
been globally lost through pig butchering scams. We'll explain it
all on the other side of the break here on
nights side on Valentine's Day Night twenty twenty five. My
(10:53):
name is Dan Ray. You were listening to w BZ
Boston's news Radio ten thirty and your am dial coming
right back after this quick break.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I'm WBZ News Radio. We're with us is Robert Sciliano.
He's the CEO of cybersecurity training company called protect Now. Robert,
I had never heard of the phrase pig butchering, but
having read up on a little bit, I understand why
it's called pig butchering. How are you? How are you tonight?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
I'm good?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So Robert, tell us about this. It says pig butchering
scams are on the rise, and I think that you're
suggesting that I don't know. In the last five years,
one study says that seventy five billion dollars globally was
lost through these scams. Tell us about it.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So this is when. Okay, So I think everybody at
this point gets a text message at least a couple
of times a day, and that text might be like hello,
or is this Robert? Or hey, I'm sorry I didn't
call you earlier or something like that, like just some
(12:11):
innocuous lame well few words. Yeah, like the whole idea
behind these text messages that we get and First of all,
these texts are coming from you know, robots, right. There
isn't generally like a human actually sending that text. That's
done via robo calling. And they just blasted out millions
(12:35):
and millions of text messages every single day. And why
the Federal Communications Commission hasn't shut them down? I don't know.
Maybe they can't, I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, that is my question, Robert, absolutely, because there have
been politicians who have including some from Massachusetts, who have
pledged that when I go to Washington, I will stop
these phone calls and these text messages. But I interrupted you,
and I didn't mean to. I think it's a great
clear explanation. Continue please, yeah, so sorry.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So all these text messages that we get on a
regular basis, they are designed for one reason and one
reason only to get us to respond, that's it. And
so once we respond, who's this, I'm not sure who
you're calling or it's Robert, you know, did you mean
(13:28):
to call me? Like the whole idea is simply to
get us to respond, and once we respond, then a
human might engage from that point on on the other end.
And what that means is like the idea behind the
initial response is that they're they're seeking dialogue, they're seeking conversation, communication,
(13:52):
they're seeking to make a connection of some kind of
any kind, you know, and you know, and it does.
It doesn't mean that like like everybody's going to respond
because you know, maybe you don't respond. I definitely don't respond,
like I understand what's happening here. But you have to understand,
like there are a lot of people out there that
(14:12):
are just lonely, you know, Like loneliness is a very
real thing. It's a very unfortunate thing. And when people
are lonely, like they're just craving communication, they're craving attention.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And so the simple add human contact is what they're craving.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
It's it, you know, and that's where we're an interdependent
species and we require each other. You know.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So once they get you, once they get you, then
they'll start to get you involved in something that might
even initially get some money back for you, right they
kind of hook you.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
So yeah, well eventually, you know, but they might spend
weeks just talking, just texting, just communicating, just getting to
know you more, just getting deeper and deeper, just creating
a deeper and deeper human connection via text, you know,
(15:11):
And so what happens when what happens when you get
to know somebody, you begin to trust them, you know,
and as you as you as you spend more time
with somebody, And again this is just remotely it's via text,
but this time that this person is spending with you
is deepening the connection, the relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And so just to ask you one quick question, Okay,
the people who are talking to you, a lot of
this stuff comes from offshore. How good is their English?
Their their their colloquial English.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Well, at this point, with the basics like Google Translate
and AI, you know, and artificial intelligence, uh, in all
the various large language models, all these various tools, Uh,
it's no problem. You know, the scammer grammar is gone.
(16:05):
Like there's there's no need for scammer grammar. Right, Okay,
at this point they can communicate as effectively as you know,
anybody because they're using robots to do it that are
you know, eloquent and speak perfect English.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
And what they do and again just a little stretched
on time here. So what they do is they will
propose an investment of some sort and maybe you'll get
some money back initially and you think that even makes
you a little more confident, and then eventually they will
get your information and empty your accounts, abuse your credit card,
(16:49):
or maybe get you to get you to send them
a good amount of money and you get ghosted.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Right, they'll actually present you with links to actual live
web sites that show tickers in crypto coin, and they
show you know, the the gains and the money that
can be made, and they show that like this is
where I've made money. Like they'll they'll take it to
what would be considered like a legitimate website where they've
made investments in their money has just doubled and tripled,
(17:17):
and they say, hey, you know, like you know, if
you spend even only one hundred dollars, you could probably
make one hundred and fifty like in the next five
days and then make and they'll actually like invest one
hundred and fifty and then they'll get fifty back like
they can cash out, and like, whoa, this is crazy,
and so they'll it's it's it's it's just like a
(17:38):
Ponzi scam, and before you know it, like that one
hundred and fifty turns into you know, twenty thousand, and
over time they're investing, investing, investing, get a little bit back,
Get a little bit back, get a little bit back.
And what they're doing is they're they're fattening the victim up,
like when you satten up a peg and ually you
(17:59):
butcher rate.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, that's beautiful. You know, it's funny. I got to
ask you a real quick question. If I can't here,
so I get like everybody else, she gets scammed phone calls.
So I get a phone call today. I can tell
it's a delay. I can tell it's some form of
a pool of people. In the background. There's a lot
of noise, and they want to know, am I Am
I happy with my Exfinity bill. Now obviously they're looking
(18:24):
at me and say, oh, no, it's too much. But
all I say is, yeah, I'm very happy, and they
hang up. What is that scam they're going to try
to have you? You know? And you can tell by
the way this person's calling from somewhere I don't know,
East Moldolvia. This is a real person. But they have
an accent that like nothing I've ever heard. And they're
making a thousand phone calls and if ten, if ten hit,
(18:46):
they're ahead of the game.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Yeah, And they're looking for credit card information, they're looking
for any type of account numbers, they're looking for social
security numbers. They're looking to do anything and everything to
get you to sign on the dotted line to provide
any type of financial information or sensitive information that they
can eventually turn into cash.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Robert, you are one of the best cybersecurity people who
I've ever spoken with, and I've spoken with a lot.
I would love to get you to come back some
night and spend an hour with my listeners as well.
This segment is simply a quick interview segment. I'd love
to get you to come back if that's possible. That
possible anytime, buddy. Okay, Now, let me ask you this.
(19:32):
How can folks get in touch with you? How can
they get more information? You have a company called project Now.
Is there a website that people could follow up?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Yeah, it's actually protect now project now. Excuse me now LLC?
Yeah problem, Protect now LLC dot com. I'm actually in
the Boston area, so protect NOWLLC dot com.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Excellent. Excellent, that's even better, Robert, thank you very much.
I will have my producer get in touch with your
folks and let's let's do an hour in this somenight
and really this is not enough time to get as
much information out that we need to get out. And
you do a great job. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Be safe, sir, you too.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
All right, we get back right after the news at
the bottom of the hour, we're going to talk with
an assistant professor of Technology and Operations at the Michigan
University Ross Business School about Valentine Day's gift Valentine's Day
gifts and again it comes down it's kind of like
(20:36):
a scam. You was Sokker for the free gift with purchase.
We'll explain right after the news break at the bottom
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's Night with Dan Ray on Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, following on our Valentine's Day scheme, we are delighted
to introduce to Professor Lennart Bardman. He's a professor Technology
and Operations at the University of Michigan Ross Business School.
Professor Bartman, welcome to Nightsatt. How are you.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Thank you for having me Dan.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I'm doing very well. It's a wonderful nay, so happy
you tho to welcome.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
We were just talking with a cybersecurity expert. Sort of
the theme that we have going tonight and not only
is a Valentine's Day theme, but also how people have
to be smart and protect themselves. And you asked the question,
I think you even might have done a survey as
to on customer loyalty. More than seventy percent of customers
(21:35):
say that they would prefer to get a gift a
free gift as opposed to a discount. Why is that
comparison important? I think I know the answer, but I
just want my audience to understand what we are actually
discussing here.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yes, I didn't do that research myself, but that's a
very striking number. Seventy percent is a vault. The reason
for that mostly is that when you're given a free gift,
you feel that you know you're getting something that you
didn't have to pay anything for, So it's it's kind
of that psychological benefit. And the benefit of that is
(22:14):
that if you were to just get a discount, you'd
feel like, Okay, I'm still getting what I'm getting, but
I'm getting it at a slightly reduced price. It's nothing
that extraordinary. So it's really the difficult the different way
of feeling about that that that gift versus a discount.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Important. Not all that significant, I think, is what you found.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
That's correct. Yes, So let you would imagine going to
Sophora today on Valentine's Day and buying some perfume. Let's
say that costs one hundred dollars, and then you get
a ten dollar free lotion with it. But maybe you
don't actually care about that ten dollar free lotion and
you prefer to just have a ninety dollars perfume instead,
because those ten dollars are saved and you can spend
(22:55):
on something else. Normally, these free gifts are not the
kind of samples. They're not really that much worth to
the original item the church for buying. That's something that
posts people don't see.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So it's a psychological response as opposed to an intellectual response,
is what I'm hearing you say that. If you think
about it, you'll probably say the free gift's probably not
going to be great, and I'd rather save my actual
money in my pocket and get ten percent off. But
people don't think that way. I think is so there's
(23:29):
some psychology as well as economics involved here.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
Yeah, there's psychology, there's economics. There's also for the retailer. Actually,
the reason they like these free gifts is that they
can keep the perceived value of an item very high. So,
if you see a perfume that costs one hundred dollars,
you think that the quality is better than a perfume that, say,
costs eighty dollars or ninety dollars. And so if you
(23:54):
keep the price of the perfume at one hundred dollars
and then give away a ten dollar free lotion or
twenty dollars free ocean, let's say, it seems like that
perfume still has that very high quality that you originally
assumed when you saw that price, and so it's like
a it's a good way for retailer to trick you
a little bit into spending a little bit more than
(24:14):
you might want to.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, Now this is interesting to me because at some
point the retail industry must have figured this out, and
I'm assuming that they probably figured it out with smart
graduates of various business schools around the country that Harvard
Business School or Warden or Sloan or Kellogg or Ross
(24:37):
Correct or Ross.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Yeah, exactly. Our students are the ones that go into
these businesses and they work in say the marketing or
the operations departments and they try to see if they
can create better deals that would work. And that's something
that you know, we we partially teach, but we also
try to research and see what what what what that's about.
(24:59):
But yeah, that's that that's happens. Yeah, for sure, it's
just a part of my research.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So yeah, like.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
My research actually largely focuses on how can you use
data to make better decisions? So how can we use
the data if we collect about the customers through these
retail stores and see if we can personalize the deals
to the customer, or can we maybe personalize the price
to the customer, or where we what we offer them
in the assortment. And part of that, of course, can
(25:31):
feel a little bit like we're trying to trick the customer.
The part of that is also you're trying to give
the customer what they would like to have, right, You're
trying to show them what they might be interested in.
It's a different way of viewing the problem. But that's
that's kind of what my research focuses on.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So now, is that why a lot of businesses are
asking people for they'll ask questions about their privaces. Our
businesses actually compile knowing information on individuals. Are they taking
information from individuals and compiling sort of a profile at
(26:07):
their customers.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
They're doing both, So this is actually really good question.
So in most cases, businesses don't have enough data about
a specific person to be able to say like, oh,
this is what they really want. Most of what they
can do is they can segment their customer base into say, okay,
these are men from Boston that like a certain that
(26:30):
like certain TVs, for example, and then we should offer
them these particular items. And it's not really at the
individual level yet. Most of the algorithms are not that
good yet. But you know, with the generative AI that
is being produced in the large language models that are
being produced, more and more of the retail firms are
(26:51):
collecting data that might be able to really offer you
what they think is specifically what you would like to
see on their website, and maybe that can seem as
that they're trying to get you to buy a more item.
So they can also be that, well, if you're looking
for a dress, maybe we should just show you the
dress that you would like to see, similar to like
(27:13):
how Netflix shows you the movies you would like to watch.
So there's a, there's kind of a two sided story
to that.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, well, this reminds me very much of political polling.
In other words, they do polling obviously, and they have
to get even to do the entire country. They get
a thousand or twelve hundred or fifteen hundred people, a
very small group of people. But if they balance it
properly between men and women, people of all different backgrounds, younger, older,
(27:42):
et cetera, they can get a pretty good idea of
a of a large of a big election, even up
to a presidential election. So you're right. If there's a
product that they feel their target is twenty something men,
they know that every twenty seven twenty something man may
(28:04):
not buy that product, it may not be interested in
that product, but a significant number of those twenty somethings
will be. Same way with a politician, they'll say, well,
we're going to appeal to twenty something men because this
will be the candidate's position X on issues you know,
ABC and D. They're not going to get every one
of the votes, but they will know that that is
(28:26):
a rich part of the electorate that they can that
they can dig down on yes and help themselves an
election day it's kind of a similar thing or my
way off.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
No, it's a similar thing. You're trying to find the
groups of people that would like certain things and show
them right stuff, and you're just trying to only average,
do a good job. Right as a retailer, you would
like to sell your items, and you could ever know
exactly who's going to buy a bit on average, you
might be doing a good job. There's a little bit
of a difference with poling, though, because in polling it
(28:58):
is just expensive to get all the data right. You
need to call the people, you need to maybe have
surveys to figure that out. In the case of most
of these retailers, what they have is they have some
you know, loyalty program or a loyalty card or some
credit card that you can get with them, and then
because you sign up for that, they can just collect
data about you, follow points and keep tending you the
(29:19):
deals and promotions and things that they think might be
useful to you. So instead of collecting data from a
very small group, very detailed, what retailers tend to do
is they tend to basically collect data about all their
customers at a very broad level, and using that data
they can then segment their customers and kind of figure
out which customers they should target with certain items or
(29:41):
certain prices or certain promotions.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Great information, professor, this was very interesting. Again, I'm more
of a political guy, and that's where we do a
lot of politics here, and I'm always trying to find
some similarities between whatever issue we're talking about, and you've
made it very clear that there's some there's some some similarities,
but also some distinctions. I think it'd be a great
(30:06):
professor in class. Thank you so much for taking some time.
Is there is there any website that that you could
that you might like to refer my listeners to. Oftentimes
when folks come on, they've written a book or they
have a paper that they'd like people to see. Anything
that we can we can help you, or or the
business the Ross Business School raise their profile well, just.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
In general, if you're interested in learning more about what
the business school community does. Right, there's nice academic journals
about that, but that's a little bit too much to read.
So instead, what we do as a say the school
is it if you go to our website of the
business there will be nice articles that are written by
journalists about what we as professors have figured out in
our research, and they're made in a way that they
(30:51):
should be easy to understand, and anyone that works in
in you know, the business world should be able to
grasp some important insights from those articles. So it'd highly
advise you to go to the Michigan Ross website and
have a look at if there's anything that's useful for
your job.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Thank you very much, Professor Leonard Boardman, Thank you so much, professor.
We'll talk again.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Valentine's Day.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Same right back at you as well. To you and yours.
Thank you. Coming up on the other side, we're going
to talk with a representative the National Association to Convenience
Stores about the disappearance of the penny, and I suspect
the impact of the disappearing penny might really have a
tremendous impact on convenience stores who deal in cash on
(31:38):
a basis of their transactions, a much higher basis of
cash transactions at convenience stores than other stores. We'll explain
when we come back. And we talked earlier this week
about getting rid of the penny because it's too expensive
to produce, and now we'll talk about the impact that
we'll have on consumers. Back on night Side right after
this break.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Now, Dan Ray live from the Window World night Side
Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
We talked earlier this week during the eight o'clock hour
about the elimination of the sacred penny. Now, who will
that impact? Jeff Leonard from the National Association of Convenience Stores,
he's the vice president of Media and Strategic Communications, believes
that it'll have probably a great impact on the group
he represents convenience stores. Jeff Leonard, Welcome to Night's Side.
(32:30):
Why will this have an impact more so on convenience stores?
Speaker 6 (32:35):
So there's been a lot of great reporting looking at
you know, what does the cost of the penny and
what does that do? What we can add context and
is talking about what happens in stores. Convenience stores have
about one hundred and fifty million transactions a day. Of
that total, one third or fifty two million our cash.
(32:55):
So we're looking at it from the time standpoint. How
much time would you save if you're not counting out pennies?
Because when you go to convenience stores, the first thing
you want is convenience in and out really fast. And
we're focused on can we make it a little faster,
and that's where the elimination of penny comes in as
an issue that we want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So you sounds to me like you think that might
be a good idea.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Well, it has to be something consumers want, and we
have done some surveys. We did some surveys last week
before President Trump's announcement. And when we initially asked customers
or consumers and a national survey, would you like to
get rid of the penny, just flat out that only
about one third said yes, about thirty six percent. But
(33:42):
then we started explaining to them in the survey it
would save money, it would speed up transactions. This is
what you don't have more pennies sitting.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Around, Jeff. This is what we call push polling in politics.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Right now.
Speaker 6 (33:54):
It wasn't It wasn't that. It was more to see
what were the triggers not to use that. No, I
know exactly what you're talking about, but I know, of
course everything. Everything increased, and the winning message was pennies
will save money for the government. The one that I
thought would win would be the time, but that didn't.
(34:15):
But they all bumped up and you were over fifty
percent now with people saying yeah, sounds like a good idea,
So we continue to look at the issue.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
So here's my question. Okay, when this first came out,
I thought to myself, Okay, the ninety nine cent candy barge.
Using this as a hypothetical, they'll charge us now a
dollar for it, So no one, no prices will be
rounded would be rounded down, They'll all be rounded up.
I understand that. Okay, ninety nine cents for dollar, but
when you add in sales tax. Here in Massachusetts, we're
(34:44):
now starting to talk about taxing candy, which for a
long time was not taxable, and with a six percent
sales tax, boom, it's going to be a dollar six
You're still gonna have pennies to deal with. You know what,
when pennies are gone, and maybe they'll never be gone
in our lifetime, how do you deal with that fractionalization.
(35:05):
If it's below three cents, you'd round down, If it's
about three cents, you round up.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Well, Fortunately, we have some examples from Canada. Canada stop
minting the penny in twenty twelve and stopped accepting pennies
a year later. So I talked to some retailers and
some customers in Canada. See how did they deal with it?
How did it work? Basically, the if you pay by
(35:32):
debit or credit card, no change. If you pay by cash,
it's after tax, and if it's a one or two
cents that you'd normally get back. Well, first off, twenty,
if you look at one hundred possible transactions we get changed,
twenty of them aren't changed. That'd be the five, ten, fifteen, twenty,
et cetera. Forty of them would be rounded down and
(35:54):
that would be the ones like eleven would go to ten,
twelve go to eleven, et cetera, and that would save
sixty cents. Sixty cents would be taken out of circulation,
and then forty transactions would go up, and that would
be the thirteen would go to fifteen, the fourteen would
go to fifteen, et cetera, and that would save another
one hundred and forty pennies. Now, the first question I
(36:17):
got was won't this require a lot more nickels? Won't
this require a lot more dimes? And in looking at
the math, believe it or not, there would be no
extra nickels used on average. There would be no extra
dimes used on average. Two hundred pennies would be taken
out of circulation for every hundred transactions, but eight quarters
(36:38):
would be added. So there's the two dollars versus two dollars.
So if you don't like pennies, that's good. If you
like quarters, whether it's for laundry or whatever, that's good.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
What did people in Canada do when they said we're
not going to we're not going to any longer except pennies.
I know a lot of people had their penny collections
at that point. They just be stuck with them.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
Correct, Well, there's a gary you can trade. I mean
you can go to one of those machines where you
get redemption.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I heard an interesting phrase.
Speaker 6 (37:10):
Somebody said I expected there to be more emotional payload
with this, and he said it was surprisingly okay, it
just was yeah, we really didn't notice. And now I
don't have that jar at any sitting around.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You know, you know who loses out of this as well,
and we probably have forgotten about him, Abe Lincoln.
Speaker 6 (37:33):
He does, and anybody that knows nineteen oh nine SVDB
coin collectors, etc. You know, there's also round up programs
things like that, where people may may stick a couple
of pennies in a collection jar or something like that.
All kinds of things will have to change. But yeah,
things happen, They certainly do.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Look, I really enjoyed the conversation, Jeff. If someone wants
to get more information about your company or your your organization,
how can they find you?
Speaker 6 (38:03):
Well, National Association of Convenience Stores conveniences in our name,
So we made that our website convenience dot org, and
you can find me on the website if you want
to talk, whether you want to tell me I'm right
or tell me I'm wrong, or just give me new
insights as we go down this path.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Sounds great, Jeff Leonard spelled e n A a ar
D l E n ar D National Association of Convenience So,
as vice president of Media and Strategic Communications, you did
a great job for us. You made a complex problem
easily easy to understand, and I thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Thanks, Jeff, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
All Right, we'll get back. We're going to talk about
a demonstration in Boston today. I suspect we're going to
be seeing more of these in the weeks and months ahead,
in my opinion, and we're going to take a little
bit of a deep dive into the demonstration and who
was involved and what they were looking for and maybe
what their actual purpose is. Stay with us on Nightside.
(39:01):
We'll be back right after the nine o'clock news
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