March 26, 2025 • 39 mins
What does the future hold for clean energy in New England? Many would agree on the environmental benefits of clean energy but at what cost? Can we achieve affordable clean energy here in New England? Dave Cash, former Regional Administrator for the EPA in New England under the Biden Administration, joined us to talk about the pros and cons of various power options such as solar, wind, natural gas and nuclear as well as the future of clean energy in New England.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Fought to welcome back a friend of the program he's
been with us before, Dave Cash. Dave Cash, welcome back
to Night Side. How were you, sir.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm doing great. It's great to be on the show again, Dan,
thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Most recently, Dave Cash was the regional administrator for what
is called Region one for the United States Environmental Protection
Agency that covers six news New England states and also
ten federally recognized tribes here in New England. And Dave
(00:39):
has a deep knowledge and understanding. He was at one
point a high school teacher, but subsequently he worked in
the Romney administration here in Massachusetts as a director of Air,
Energy and Waste Policy, and then went on to work
in the Biden administration as a said, say, the top
(01:01):
EPA administrator here in New England, Dave, we have just
had a very cold winter in New England. At least
that's the way it seems to me. YEA, do you
concur that this has been a colder than normal winter.
Everyone's paying more money for their energy. I'm sure you
know that.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean I think this has kind of been
like a normal winter for New England fifteen or twenty
years ago, and maybe we all kind of sell The
last couple of winters have been kind of dry and
kind of warm, and so getting socked with a regular
New England winter. But yeah, I mean, I mean, man,
you must feel it. I know I feel it. Higher
(01:41):
gas bills and electric bills this month, and I mean
you know why they're high. They're high because we depend
so much on natural gas here all New England's energy
electricity prices, they're high due to our heavy reliance on
natural gas. It's like over fifty percent of our electricity
(02:02):
country natural gas. That means like we're linked to the
vagaries of the market and we're here in New England
at the end of the pipeline literally and figuratively, so
when gas prices go up and down, oof, we feel it.
And so that's every one of the many, many reasons
why we should be moving to other sources, whether that's nuclear,
which we're still at about twenty five percent there, but hydro, offshore, wind, solar,
(02:28):
those are all things that ultimately are going to bring
down the price of electricity for consumers, because obviously you
don't pay fuel costs for solar and wind. Those are yeah,
those are break You've.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Got to cover me a little skeptical at the moment
on that. O. Sure, but that's what we're going to
talk about. You've you've certainly focused here. On the one hand,
we've all felt the sting of higher prices this winter.
Now it has been a little colder, but you're right,
it's not abnormally cold. It's not like all of a
(03:00):
sudden we're in some sort of you know, depth of
winter beginning in November. First, November was fairly mild. December
got a little colder kind of hit us in January.
February was cold month. It's funny every Sunday I look
in the globe and they talk about how cold it
has been, uh in you know, whether it's above average
(03:21):
or a below average? Do you know that the globe
is trying to convince me and I have no idea
where they have the where they take these temperatures, that
it's been warmer than normal, like by a degree and
a half. I just don't buy that. But that's we'll
put that. We'll put that aside.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
So you know, that's what if that's what the science
is saying. I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't doubt it
depends on that.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, it's the question is I don't know where the
science is. If the science guy is standing in his
living room and taking the temperature, if he's standing outside,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, Now, come on, you know they got they got
monitors all over the state where they're you know they're
they're they're getting all the numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
They do that. The last couple of winters, I would
agree with you it was a little warm and normal,
but I just think this winter was colder than normal.
So so what we're trying to do here is we're
trying to balance the cost of living in New England, okay,
with the energy options that we have. And I want
to go through some of those with you and know
(04:21):
that you're a huge supporter of solar and you're a
huge supporter of wind. So let me let me ask
you about those in in a in a bit of
a challenging way. Okay, solar in New England, me in Arizona.
No t how efficient it can solar ever be for
(04:46):
New England.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So the real question it's not it's not about efficiency, right.
We know we're not as efficient as Arizona, there's no
question about okay, right, The question is is it worth
the cost? Right, that's the question because Arizona also has
has relatively low electricity prices in general, and so we're
(05:10):
here in this market, like I said, at the end
of the natural gas pipeline, so we pay high costs.
So if solar is not as great here as it
is in Arizona, well that's okay. If it's still better
than the alternative. And what we've seen in the last
ten fifteen years is the price of solar coming down, down, down, down,
(05:32):
and it's coming down because it's expanding everywhere because the
government is supporting it with subsidies and pact incentives. Yeah, exactly.
But then then that means more manufacturers are going to
build it, and then they're going to compete, and the
price is going to come down. We see, we've seen that.
We've seen that, you know, with batteries with solar, with wind,
with onshore wind, with offshore wind, we'll get, we'll get
(05:54):
with all those.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I just want to take them one at their time.
So let's come back yea, yeah for a second, okay,
So solar is never going to be a panacea for
New England. It might help a little bit, but obviously
it's not a panacea. Now you talked about we're at
the end of the pipeline, Dave, We're not really at
the end of the pipeline. But we have politicians in
(06:16):
New England who fight against adding pipelines. If you talk
to the heads of ever source in National Grid, as
I have, they've always said we need more pipelines in Massachusetts.
But what will happen is in the middle of July,
when no one's thinking about their electric bills, there'll be
some demonstration. Not in my backyard. I don't want to prison,
(06:39):
I don't want a waste treatment plant, and I certainly
don't want a pipeline. And you go through my neighborhood.
So we solve how do we deal with that problem?
Or is that an impossible problem to deal with?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
No, it's not an impossible I mean there are a
bunch of parts of that problem. One problem is I
think a fair question is should we be investing in
fossil fuel infrastructure like pipelines when we know we know
we've got to move to a clean energy future for many, many,
many reasons, public public health, in terms of local air pollution,
(07:16):
climate change, the benefits for clean energy economy where the
United States can be a major global competitor, it lowers
costs as I described earlier. So the question is what
are the things we should be investing in, And I
would argue fossil fuel pipelines is not the answer. The
answer is more transmission.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Is not natural gas one of the cleanest forms of
energy right now?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
It is definitely one of the cleanest forms of fossil energy.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And we have it in well, yeah, let's just take
the word fossil for a seconds. That's a dirty word.
But there isn't there an abundance of natural gas in America?
Why not play to our strength in the short term
and bring a couple of more pipelines in and bring
and realize that maybe at some point thirty forty years
from now, we're all going to be sold. It's going
(08:08):
to be hydro and nuclear. Whatever. Do we really have
to look at at this point as natural gas as
an enemy?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's not an enemy in a peer right now, and
so we should use it now, but we should get
the heck off it as soon as we can. Fossil
fuels have played a really important role in our country,
no question. Because of fossil fuels, we were able to
grow and industrialize and all of the kinds of things
that we've come to love about this country. Right, But
(08:37):
the time for fossil fuels is over. We've found it
causes major problems in the environment. It causes health problems, cancer,
heart disease, asthma attacks, all of those kinds of things.
And we have the technology, the cheaper and cheaper technology
to move to the clean energy future. So I would say,
thank you, thank you natural gas. Your time is done.
(08:58):
What let's get these offshore wind farms going. Well, yeah,
look everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I gotta take a break. I got to take a break.
And you ever convinced me yet, we're going to go back.
My guest is Dave cash Uh. He is someone who
has spent his life looking at energy issues. Many of
you have been looking at your bills. Uh. And obviously
there's a little bit of a difference approach between Dave
and myself, and I will acknowledge that this is his
(09:24):
area of expertise, but I have strong feelings on it
and we can all have a great conversation for the
next rob or so six six six month, seven two five, four,
ten thirty six, Month seven nine, three, one, ten thirty.
Will be right back on night Side, more conversation with
Dave Cash, and we will get to phone calls. I'll
tell you right now, light those lines up if you
(09:45):
really want to get in. If you are a big
proponent of solar or wind or hydro, you want to
call and tell Dave he's absolutely right, not that he
needs any convincing. If you're somebody who's a little skeptical
of these and wants to hold on too at least
natural gas and is probably more comfortable with nuclear, I'm
your guy. We're not making a debate. It's a conversation.
(10:06):
It's North America's back porch, or maybe even tonight North
America's front port gets the kind of windy in the back.
We'll be back right after this.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
We're talking about energy energy cost here in New England.
We know they were expensive this winter and they'll be
expensive this summer. If you're dealing with air conditioning with us.
As Dave Cash, he's a former most recent Regional Administrator
of the United States Environmental Protection Agency, the Region one office,
which is the six New England states and the ten
(10:44):
recognized tribes here in New England. So we talked a
little bit about solar, and we come back to solar,
but let's talk about offshore wind. Okay, Now, when I
think about wind, it's always offshore. I've been in other
parts of the country where the the turbines are in,
you know, in the in the like Kansas, there is
no offshore. It's always lad locked. But we got a
(11:07):
problem offshore because, as I understand it, you got whales
that are being impacted by this. They're throwing blades into
the water. Is there anywhere in America where offshore wind
has is effective.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Well, the most effective at this point is off.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
The coast of New England. The wind is incredibly strong
and constant, and the National Marine Fisheries Service and other
agencies have studied the whale problem and it isn't really
a problem, especially when they've changed some of the sighting
of some of the turbines to not get in the
(11:49):
way of migration routes and things like that. And sure
you're going to have problems like the blade flying off.
But Boyd compared to say the BP oil spill and
any other time you have fossil fuel spills, this is
nothing and this is a huge resource for this region.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
This let me ask you, how did the how did
the how did the I'm being serious with you now.
I understanding that in the last year or so, they've
had a tremendous number of whales wash up ashore off
the New Jersey Coast. And I don't know that they've
been able to figure what what what caused that? But
(12:30):
what are the environmentalists saying about the protection of the whales.
I know that off the cape we deal with sharks
and there's shock, kivity and all of that sort of stuff.
But I assume you've heard the story about the the
uptick in in whale carcasses off the New Jersey coast.
We're not talking about the former governor Chris Christy. By
(12:51):
the way, Let let me make that very clear right now.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Okay, you know, I I don't I know, I've studied.
I've read some of those studies. They're not related to win.
You see upticks in whale death.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
We don't know why suicide.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I mean, when you when you've got these big projects
that are office those it takes years to do the analysis,
the environmental analysis, and the planning to make sure they're
not a problem. And you know, for for for President
Trump to kind of put the brakes on this whole
sector which is just booming. I mean, we're talking in
(13:33):
New England jobs, jobs, jobs, the the kind of renaissance
of New Bedford and Salem and Bridgeport and New London
with new offshore windos. How many how many jobs it's
going to be tens of thousands, It's going to be
thousands where we now multiple thousands. I don't know the
total number, multiple thousands. I mean, I don't know if
(13:53):
you've ever have you ever like driven by most recently,
I think it was New London and and New Bedford
to just have these massive monopiles ready to go out
in the ocean, and you know that there's like there's
supply chain manufacturing going to be on shore, et cetera.
And I just I gotta say I scratched my head
(14:14):
on this one where you know, the President claims there
is an energy emergency and yet he's putting the brakes
on one of the most important and in the pipeline.
I mean, we're talking like we've got you know, gigawats
and gigawats and gigawats ready to go. And you know
it's clean.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We're going to we're going to lose some of the
mathem the non mathematicians. Let me give it to you
more directly. Let's assume that we were able to put
in a substantial number of offshore wind farms. Okay, and
let us assume that we think for a moment, forget
(14:54):
about the whales they got. You know, whatever the cost is,
it's it's a cost that that we have to deal with.
How much would significant offshore windmills bring down the average
winter electric bill in New England? I'm just put it
in dollars and cents.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh Dan, you're you're asking me to answer a question.
I have no idea what the answer to.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But the reason I say, I mean, I don't. The
reason I asked the question is this. It's one thing
to say, hey, let's do this, but I think in
order to convince the public that it's a good idea
and put it, put aside the whale people who are
who are never going to be with you. But principle,
somehow someone's got to quantify it.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But that's okay, And yeah, I don't well, I don't
know what the exact answer is. I do know that
the all the studies have shown that in the long
term that once we have full build out of offshore wind,
our prices will be lower than they are now and
they'll be less volatile. And the volatility is what kills
a business. Right, if you're business that depends or any
(16:01):
or school building owner, you know you can't that or
a homeowner. Right, My electric builds are much higher this
year than last year. How do I budget for my family? Well,
offshore wind it's more constant, not depending on oil, I
mean on gas coming from elsewhere. Those are the things
that are going to help you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Okay, let's talk Let's talk about We talked about solo,
we talked about wind. Let's talk about hydro. I remember
flying on a plane with Governor Hugh Gallon of New Hampshire.
You might not even remember him. He was the governor
of New Hampshire in the late seventies, really smart guy,
and he was talking to me and we were sitting
on the plane and he was talking about hydro Quebec
(16:43):
and how Quebec was the answer. This is in the
late seventies, so it's at least forty years ago. How
much is hydro Quebec or hydro at any anywhere contributing
to our power supply here in New England? Where is
it's high?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I think it's in the twenty plus percent in New England.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
That's because that's.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
At Yeah, well, we don't have that much hydro here
within the region, and we get about I'm sorry, wait, no,
I'm sorry, I'm over speaking. It's more than that. It's
in the tent. It's in the ten to fifteen range.
But the but when I was when I was in
state government in the Romney administration and then in the
Patrick administration I followed. In the Patrick administration, we were
(17:27):
really trying to figure out how to get electricity from
hydro Quebec because they had surplus in a pretty major
way and they were looking for a market and we
were looking for supply. It seems like a perfect match.
And we mentioned the problem of sighting and things like that.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Nimby, I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
It didn't work. And it didn't work because we couldn't
cite that there's been only one of what we thought
we needed three major transmission lines and only one got
permitted because they were blocked in New Hampshire, there were
problems in Maine. It just was a very frustrating I mean,
this is part of your question about the difficulty, David.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I don't mean to be interrupted with you. You've known
so much more about this. So who blocked them in
New Hampshire? And who blocked the transmission lines? And with
these overground transmission lines or underground?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, they were overground. They were overground, Okay, I think
there were there were, there were local there a couple
of dynamics. There are a bunch of local environmental groups
that weren't happy with the overground transmission lines. And there
were also I mean, I'll pull it put it on
some of the transmission developers. I'm not going to mention names,
but they didn't come in and get participation early and
(18:38):
often enough in a way that the benefits of this
project could be shared by those who were going to
see the wires, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, So Bec was going to make money. So Quebec
was going to make money, but they weren't going to
be able to tap back tap.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Into the energy, yeah, or the or the utility that
was building the American utility. Yeah, I got you share
the benefits, share the profits with the communities along the way,
have them have a seat at the table.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So that's got to be twenty years ago or fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Ago, yeah, fifteen years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I
know that there. I know we're all still working on
trying to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Okay, all right, So we got to take a break.
Nine thirty News. I got callers. I want the callers
to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
I will ask the callers to ask questions, no speeches,
just you know, ask questions. Just do what I've tried
to do. Clearly, you you you know that I see
(19:39):
this just a little differently than Dave does. But he's
somebody who knows a lot about it, and I'm asking
questions that frankly, I don't know the answers to. We'll
be back with Dave Cash, most recently the EPA administrator
here in New England for the Biden administration. He worked
for the Biden administration as the top EPA official here
in New England right up until on January twentieth at
(20:02):
high noon, when on January twentieth of this year, twenty
twenty five until the inauguration of President Trump. And at
that point everyone in the Biden administration had to have
submitted ice room letters of resignation or they whatever. That's
how it goes when there is a transition of power.
There was a complete transition of power. Join the conversation
back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
This, if you're on night Side with Dan Ray on
w BAZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I have a lot of questions to ask my friend
Dave Cash and again, he understands this a lot better
than I do. I think I have some knowledge of it,
but he's the expert. And so let's go to phone calls,
and I want to incorporate as many callers as possible
this hour. We don't often get a chance to talk
about Again, we're we're talking about something that affects every
(20:52):
one of us. If you if you've looked at your
electric bill, you know that something has to change because
it's going in the wrong direction. Uh, you've heard me
criticize the Department of Public Utilities who rolled over like
puppy dogs in my opinion. Let me go to Tom
tom Is in Brockton. Tom you first up with Dave
Cash form EPA Regional administrator here in New England. Go ahead, Tom, okay.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Number one, New York State will not allow a natural
gas pipeline to enter its state as well as exit.
That is harming the rest of the six New England states.
There's plenty of natural gas in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio,
and Kentucky. All right, that's that's number one, number two, So.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Tom, do you a favorite? I just want to check
with Dave okay, because I believe you. But but is
that accurate? You know? Is that the problem?
Speaker 6 (21:51):
I know the state.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I don't know the specifics about New York State, but
I'm not going to argue that's time national gas stop.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Do you touch it to? Please? Tom? Tom be respect,
Tom b respect Please.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I don't know what's going on in New York. Sorry,
what can I tell you? I'm in New England. I
don't know what's going on in New York. But I'm
not doubting that there's plenty of natural gas. I'm not
doubting that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So he's not saying that. What he's saying is that
New York will not permit me.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I know, is not allowing gas to come through. I
get that. I'm just saying I don't know that. That's
all I don't know, Sir Tom accept Come on.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Man, you're involved in the energy energy sector of the
New England States. You should know that. Okay, I digress.
Now the next thing, as far as solar energy, that's
all well and good. I installed a five thousand watt
solar system in my house in Brockton back in two
(22:49):
thousand and eleven. The system, not including the labor and
the materials it costs for the twenty four solar pans,
animals and the inverter twenty to twenty two thousand dollars. Now,
I got an eighty six hundred dollars credit because of
(23:12):
the Obama administration for my federal taxes to pay for
part of that. If I were to take out a
calculator and multiply that out at a five percent interest
rate over twenty years, that would be one hundred and
four approximately one hundred and forty five dollars a month. Now,
(23:33):
at the time in my house in Brockton, I was
paying seventy five to eighty five dollars a month. I
don't have any heavy utilities here, yeah, right, no gas range.
So solar energy is not a panacea. Solar power can
augment the power grid, the cleanest power that we have
(23:57):
that can generate massive quantity of electricity that do not
create greenhouse gases. And I do believe in man made
climate change from carbon You do know what the answer
to that is. It's hydro electric as well as nuclear.
Nuclear power does not create greenhouse gases? Am I right?
(24:21):
Am I wrong? You are correct? Okay, So why is
it when I listen to progressives in this state tell
me that, oh, well, China will eventually catch up the
United States. I'm going to eye the EW retired electrician
I've worked on coal burner power plants and Harris in Lumberport,
(24:46):
West Virginia, where we put scrubbers on those power plants
in the late eighties. China does not put scrubbers on
their power plants. They're well over at eleven hundred active
power plants and continuing to build coal fired power plants.
That doesn't include the rest of the world that they're
(25:07):
not mandating they put that stuff on there.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Hey, Tom, get you get to a question please.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
So so, so the question is, so if we sacrifice
the United States? Uh, energy policy to stop climate change
and the rest of the world doesn't. How is that
going to help out man made climate change?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That's a good question.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Go ahead, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's a great question when we see the dynamics.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Whoa, whoa, Hey Tom, Tom, do me a favor you
you asked you, you had a three minute question. Please
don't interrupt him as he starts to give an answer.
You're a better gentleman than that.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Tom.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
Go ahead, Dave, thank you.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Uh. Yeah, it's a great question. It's one that you
know has the doubled the United States for a long time.
But I feel like if we are expanding our use
of things like solar in the way that you describe it,
it's not going to be a panacea, certainly not here
in the Northeast. Other parts of the country. It can
(26:11):
provide way more capacity than it can here. Keeping nuclear
and even expanding it, which in fact we did in
the Biden Administrative ainistration. We invested in new nuclear technologies,
safer nuclear technologies, expanding nuclear, bringing hydro resources that we
have we were just talking about before the break from Canada.
(26:32):
That makes a huge amount of sense, and moving to
the real industrial scale, particularly in New England is offshore wind.
And then we become the leaders in both the development
of the technology and the innovation so that the rest
of the globe can be our marketplace, so that we
can sell these technologies. We don't have to buy them
(26:54):
from Europe, which is where we get all our offshore
wind technology right now. And that's the vision that I
think that many have. That this is a long term
vision of moving the United States into a clean energy
future that will be cleaner air, less climate change, growth
of green jobs, innovation, which is what America has always
been great about. So that's that's that's my answer to that.
(27:16):
And then you know, then China, hopefully then China will
see by the way, China just surpassed Tesla in electric
vehicle use because in electric vehicles sales, because they know
they have to clean up their cities. You know, I've
seen the pictures of Beijing and what it looks like
on an awful day, and so they're moving. You know,
why are we letting them clean?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Let me get here before we go to break tom
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yeah, So what you're telling me is that we have
to put our faith in China, which is the world's
biggest pollute the United States that has gone down on
a pollution Please, and don't peel on my legs. Tell
me it's raining.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Come on, Tom, please, Tom, let's have it.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
I want it honest. I want someone to be frank
with me for a change. I don't need someone from
Harvard Square, Cambridge.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Good enough, Tom, I'm going to end it right there.
Thanks very much, Tom for the call. I think you've
been too disrespectful to my guests, and that's not like you.
We'll take a break, Dave and right we'll be right
back on night Side with a couple of more calls.
And I ask simply for polite conversation. If that's too
much to ask, then I find another talk show. Six.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Let's get right back to the phone, so we'll go
to Mark and Saugus. Mark, you're next on Nightside. Please
be polite, ask a couple of questions and go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (28:49):
Hi, Dann Mark from Saugus, Sir, I have a couple
of questions about wind turburns. Why have to be so
big to use smaller ones? Say you're on land the ocean.
Seems like they need an awful lot of maintenance, like
(29:10):
a boat. Always have to work on them and fix them.
And there's something that's going to rot away and fall
off in the ocean.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah, that's the that's the state as highways, but they
don't in the state.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
The state owns land in between the highways, like we
do with the prison down in Denham.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Mm hmm, okay, so let's give me, give me a
chance to respond. Marks two great.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Those are two great questions. And I am not an engineer,
but my understanding is that as the blades get bigger,
they're more efficient. In particularly offshore where the wind blows hard,
they're more efficient and the whole unit becomes more efficient,
so it can produce a lot more electricity for the
amount of material that's used.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
And so.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You know, when offshore technology started developing, it could really
take advantage of the big, wide open space to make
them really large. On land, yes, they are smaller, except
they're getting larger too. But the ones like we've seen,
you know, I remember being around when and I think
they might still be there. On the on Boston City Hall,
(30:19):
a bunch of small ones were put up, and I
think at the airport. They had some too. They're okay,
but they're really you know, they don't produce the kind
of output that you need. So essentially, for wind turbines,
you know, bigger is better and they capture more wind
and convert more of it into electricity. Your other point,
go ahead, Sorry, I'm just gonna say the other point
(30:40):
is there are a lot of states that are trying
to be creative about state land federal land that can
be used in those creative ways. In fact, one of
the things when I was first in the Patrick administration,
we looked at the turnpike and you might note when
you when you go by, I think it's maybe sinateic
(31:00):
on one one of the early when you're heading west
out of Boston, there's some solar panels that are on
the on the burn that's right next to the service
station there. And you know, those are popping up more
and more and more as folks are realizing, hey, we
could do this. And I know there are a lot
of towns that are now covering like parking lots over
their libraries and municipal buildings to take advantage of that
(31:24):
land that can be turned into energy.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Why Mark Mark Cover both the questions.
Speaker 6 (31:31):
Yeah, I mean I think I think they should try
like put them in the mediums of the highways and
maybe well we got some great hills.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
We've got great hills in the Berkshires. If you go
to put them awhere, put them out in the Berkshires
and run the streetline.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
See what happens.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
All right? Okay, Hey, Mark from Zaga is great calls.
Thank you very much. Thanks and gentlemen, thanks, good night.
Who we go to gym in Kansas City, Jim.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Go right ahead, Dan, Hey, thanks for taking my call.
Would be how you've been fantastic? Okay, hey, uh okay,
I'm not gonna I was gonna ask you what happened
if you heard about what happened to Big Bird, but no,
I gotta be respectful. So hey, look at uh have
you ever been up two hundred feet on the outside
(32:17):
of a structure?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
I I I actually have climbed up to the top
of one of the wind turbines that's on the military
base on Cape Cod and it was extraordinary. That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Well, okay, I guess what I'm kind of wondering is,
who are you going to get to work on these things?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That's a great question. And here's and here's something I
do know a little bit about this because we had
some federal funding that was part of the Inflation Reduction
Act that was going to workforce development and training. And
I met a guy down in New Bedford and like
four or five years ago, he was down on his luck.
He had lost a couple of jobs. He was really
(32:59):
good with the hands, and then he entered one of
these training programs that then was a pipeline into the
steel workers Union, where he exactly did what you're talking about.
His job now is to climb up these huge poles
out in the ocean to do whatever maintenance is required.
And so at least here in the Northeast, there's like
(33:21):
a huge opportunity to have workforce development and job growth,
particularly in these ports that have been hard hit and
are on hard economic times. So their future is about
being jobs too.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Wow, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Hey, Jim, that is a fabulous question. They couldn't pay
me enough, Jim, I don't know about you.
Speaker 7 (33:44):
Well, that's see, that's what I'm saying. I'm the kind
of guy that'll climb up there. I've done high rise
work before, and I'll do it, but you've got to
pay the right amount of money, and I doubt seriously
whether you can come up with that kind of cabbage.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
All right, fair enough in here, Thanks Jim, great question,
great question. Thanks good. Let's go to Mike and Salem'm
gonna get you and also Walter in from Limits to
go ahead, Mike.
Speaker 8 (34:10):
Hey, how's it going.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Dan doing great? We got a couple of minutes for you.
You go right ahead. What's your comment to question from
my guest Dave Cash?
Speaker 8 (34:17):
I just I just got a question. You know, they're
talking about nuclear being you know, clean and all this,
but what do they do with the nuclear waste when
it's done?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (34:27):
I mean, how.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
Clean is is nuclear? If you know there's waste, same
thing with any other.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So I think we should put them on rocket ships
and send them out to like Jupiter. You guys are laughing.
I'm serious, No.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
I hear you.
Speaker 8 (34:45):
I watched on on YouTube. They're like burying that stuff
on the ground. But it's like how I mean, how long.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
No one wants and no one wants it? No one
wants it. They want they buried in places like Utah
down some mountain.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Or whatever, Mike, Mike, that question is like the sixty
four it's like the sixty four billion dollar question. And
it goes back to Tom's point earlier. And I didn't
get to answer this, but that is that that's the
It doesn't cause you know, climate change, but it does
have this nuclear waste problems which hasn't really really been
(35:19):
solved yet, and they're trying to develop new technologies. Again
this administration, by the administration invested in that. But that's
a it's a very good point. And maybe you're also
thinking about like the there's some toxic chemicals that are
in batteries. And one of the interesting things that I
know the Department of Energy. I was in an environment,
not in energy, but I know that there's a big
(35:40):
investment in how do you create a circular economy so
that when the battery reaches the end of its life,
you can take out the component parts and recycle it.
And because all those rare earth minerals are still in there,
and they're coming up with ways to do that that
are economical.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
All right, my great question. I want to get one
more in if I can. Okay, my friend, thank you
so much. I have a great Mike uh, Walter and
Levens Or Walter, you're the last of the hour, and
go right ahead your own daycast.
Speaker 9 (36:07):
My question is back in deval Patrick's administration, he passed
or had a law passed, and just correct me if
it really did happen that the electric companies are able
to recoup any loss revenue from people installing so and
(36:29):
when and whatnot at the houses without even going through
the registerat you're requesting increases. Is that still going on.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Now? I'm not I'm not exactly sure what you're meaning,
but so it was, it might be this and this
happened is happening all over the country right there. Electric
utilities have an incentive fell as much electricity as they can,
right because they get paid by the killowot hour for
the electricity to go through their buyers, right, So they're
(37:01):
not really going to want a homeowner to reduce their
energy use, so they're not going to be too helpful
on the energy efficiency side, even though it would help
the homeowner, they would lose money. So many states have
put together these kind of plans where they don't recoup
all of it, but they would recoup some so that
(37:22):
they have an incentive to participate in helping the homeowners,
you know, save money, because that's what this is. I've
got to be all about. It's got to be about
helping the customer lower their rates, lower their bills, not
be hit by a winter like this. So I think
that was I don't know the specifics, but there are
a lot of plans that have incentives for the companies
(37:45):
to benefit, to have an incentive to make sure that
their customers use energy efficiency things. I mean, that's that,
and then everybody.
Speaker 9 (37:53):
Back when it was passed, I remember reading a nautical
in the local newspaper and I killed myself for not
saving it.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
But it was like, you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
All right, we got it. Hey, Walter, I hate to
do this to you, but you called late and we're
now flat up against the ten o'clock news.
Speaker 9 (38:12):
So thanks for raising that issue going to that law.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So we will. Thanks Walter, I appreciate it very much.
Some good calls, challenging calls, David, more than hell your own,
as always, I appreciate it. We got to do this
again because there's a whole we only scratch the surface tonight. Okay,
let's agree.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
With you, and you know we got we got Earthstake
coming up in April, maybe that would be a good
time to do it. End of April.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, maybe maybe a little later than that, you know,
but let me be the first to wish you a
happy Earth Day. Okay, that's important.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Thank you, Dan. It's always a pleasure to be on
this show. I love hearing the questions from your listeners.
Their sharp, they're interesting, they're intelligent, they're just like, get
to the heart of what these issues are, even if
they get a little hot under the collar.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That's okay, Yep, yep, Tom. Tom was one of my
more callers, but I think it stepped over the line
a little bit, but we'll leave that one go again.
You and I don't see the world the same way,
but I think we have good conversations, which is all
I want to love with. All Right, David, thank you soon,
Thank you again, my friend. We'll talk soon. When we
get back. We're going to continue our conversation about this
(39:20):
now famous signal chat kerfuffle. I think it's a fascinating story.
The Democrats are trying their best and the Republicans are
trying to brush it under the rug. I'd love to
know what you think. We'll be back on Night's side
right after this
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Fought to welcome back a friend of the program he's
been with us before, Dave Cash. Dave Cash, welcome back
to Night Side. How were you, sir.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm doing great. It's great to be on the show again, Dan,
thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Most recently, Dave Cash was the regional administrator for what
is called Region one for the United States Environmental Protection
Agency that covers six news New England states and also
ten federally recognized tribes here in New England. And Dave
(00:39):
has a deep knowledge and understanding. He was at one
point a high school teacher, but subsequently he worked in
the Romney administration here in Massachusetts as a director of Air,
Energy and Waste Policy, and then went on to work
in the Biden administration as a said, say, the top
(01:01):
EPA administrator here in New England, Dave, we have just
had a very cold winter in New England. At least
that's the way it seems to me. YEA, do you
concur that this has been a colder than normal winter.
Everyone's paying more money for their energy. I'm sure you
know that.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean I think this has kind of been
like a normal winter for New England fifteen or twenty
years ago, and maybe we all kind of sell The
last couple of winters have been kind of dry and
kind of warm, and so getting socked with a regular
New England winter. But yeah, I mean, I mean, man,
you must feel it. I know I feel it. Higher
(01:41):
gas bills and electric bills this month, and I mean
you know why they're high. They're high because we depend
so much on natural gas here all New England's energy
electricity prices, they're high due to our heavy reliance on
natural gas. It's like over fifty percent of our electricity
(02:02):
country natural gas. That means like we're linked to the
vagaries of the market and we're here in New England
at the end of the pipeline literally and figuratively, so
when gas prices go up and down, oof, we feel it.
And so that's every one of the many, many reasons
why we should be moving to other sources, whether that's nuclear,
which we're still at about twenty five percent there, but hydro, offshore, wind, solar,
(02:28):
those are all things that ultimately are going to bring
down the price of electricity for consumers, because obviously you
don't pay fuel costs for solar and wind. Those are yeah,
those are break You've.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Got to cover me a little skeptical at the moment
on that. O. Sure, but that's what we're going to
talk about. You've you've certainly focused here. On the one hand,
we've all felt the sting of higher prices this winter.
Now it has been a little colder, but you're right,
it's not abnormally cold. It's not like all of a
(03:00):
sudden we're in some sort of you know, depth of
winter beginning in November. First, November was fairly mild. December
got a little colder kind of hit us in January.
February was cold month. It's funny every Sunday I look
in the globe and they talk about how cold it
has been, uh in you know, whether it's above average
(03:21):
or a below average? Do you know that the globe
is trying to convince me and I have no idea
where they have the where they take these temperatures, that
it's been warmer than normal, like by a degree and
a half. I just don't buy that. But that's we'll
put that. We'll put that aside.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
So you know, that's what if that's what the science
is saying. I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't doubt it
depends on that.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, it's the question is I don't know where the
science is. If the science guy is standing in his
living room and taking the temperature, if he's standing outside,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, Now, come on, you know they got they got
monitors all over the state where they're you know they're
they're they're getting all the numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
They do that. The last couple of winters, I would
agree with you it was a little warm and normal,
but I just think this winter was colder than normal.
So so what we're trying to do here is we're
trying to balance the cost of living in New England, okay,
with the energy options that we have. And I want
to go through some of those with you and know
(04:21):
that you're a huge supporter of solar and you're a
huge supporter of wind. So let me let me ask
you about those in in a in a bit of
a challenging way. Okay, solar in New England, me in Arizona.
No t how efficient it can solar ever be for
(04:46):
New England.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So the real question it's not it's not about efficiency, right.
We know we're not as efficient as Arizona, there's no
question about okay, right, The question is is it worth
the cost? Right, that's the question because Arizona also has
has relatively low electricity prices in general, and so we're
(05:10):
here in this market, like I said, at the end
of the natural gas pipeline, so we pay high costs.
So if solar is not as great here as it
is in Arizona, well that's okay. If it's still better
than the alternative. And what we've seen in the last
ten fifteen years is the price of solar coming down, down, down, down,
(05:32):
and it's coming down because it's expanding everywhere because the
government is supporting it with subsidies and pact incentives. Yeah, exactly.
But then then that means more manufacturers are going to
build it, and then they're going to compete, and the
price is going to come down. We see, we've seen that.
We've seen that, you know, with batteries with solar, with wind,
with onshore wind, with offshore wind, we'll get, we'll get
(05:54):
with all those.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I just want to take them one at their time.
So let's come back yea, yeah for a second, okay,
So solar is never going to be a panacea for
New England. It might help a little bit, but obviously
it's not a panacea. Now you talked about we're at
the end of the pipeline, Dave, We're not really at
the end of the pipeline. But we have politicians in
(06:16):
New England who fight against adding pipelines. If you talk
to the heads of ever source in National Grid, as
I have, they've always said we need more pipelines in Massachusetts.
But what will happen is in the middle of July,
when no one's thinking about their electric bills, there'll be
some demonstration. Not in my backyard. I don't want to prison,
(06:39):
I don't want a waste treatment plant, and I certainly
don't want a pipeline. And you go through my neighborhood.
So we solve how do we deal with that problem?
Or is that an impossible problem to deal with?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
No, it's not an impossible I mean there are a
bunch of parts of that problem. One problem is I
think a fair question is should we be investing in
fossil fuel infrastructure like pipelines when we know we know
we've got to move to a clean energy future for many, many,
many reasons, public public health, in terms of local air pollution,
(07:16):
climate change, the benefits for clean energy economy where the
United States can be a major global competitor, it lowers
costs as I described earlier. So the question is what
are the things we should be investing in, And I
would argue fossil fuel pipelines is not the answer. The
answer is more transmission.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Is not natural gas one of the cleanest forms of
energy right now?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
It is definitely one of the cleanest forms of fossil energy.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And we have it in well, yeah, let's just take
the word fossil for a seconds. That's a dirty word.
But there isn't there an abundance of natural gas in America?
Why not play to our strength in the short term
and bring a couple of more pipelines in and bring
and realize that maybe at some point thirty forty years
from now, we're all going to be sold. It's going
(08:08):
to be hydro and nuclear. Whatever. Do we really have
to look at at this point as natural gas as
an enemy?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's not an enemy in a peer right now, and
so we should use it now, but we should get
the heck off it as soon as we can. Fossil
fuels have played a really important role in our country,
no question. Because of fossil fuels, we were able to
grow and industrialize and all of the kinds of things
that we've come to love about this country. Right, But
(08:37):
the time for fossil fuels is over. We've found it
causes major problems in the environment. It causes health problems, cancer,
heart disease, asthma attacks, all of those kinds of things.
And we have the technology, the cheaper and cheaper technology
to move to the clean energy future. So I would say,
thank you, thank you natural gas. Your time is done.
(08:58):
What let's get these offshore wind farms going. Well, yeah,
look everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I gotta take a break. I got to take a break.
And you ever convinced me yet, we're going to go back.
My guest is Dave cash Uh. He is someone who
has spent his life looking at energy issues. Many of
you have been looking at your bills. Uh. And obviously
there's a little bit of a difference approach between Dave
and myself, and I will acknowledge that this is his
(09:24):
area of expertise, but I have strong feelings on it
and we can all have a great conversation for the
next rob or so six six six month, seven two five, four,
ten thirty six, Month seven nine, three, one, ten thirty.
Will be right back on night Side, more conversation with
Dave Cash, and we will get to phone calls. I'll
tell you right now, light those lines up if you
(09:45):
really want to get in. If you are a big
proponent of solar or wind or hydro, you want to
call and tell Dave he's absolutely right, not that he
needs any convincing. If you're somebody who's a little skeptical
of these and wants to hold on too at least
natural gas and is probably more comfortable with nuclear, I'm
your guy. We're not making a debate. It's a conversation.
(10:06):
It's North America's back porch, or maybe even tonight North
America's front port gets the kind of windy in the back.
We'll be back right after this.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
We're talking about energy energy cost here in New England.
We know they were expensive this winter and they'll be
expensive this summer. If you're dealing with air conditioning with us.
As Dave Cash, he's a former most recent Regional Administrator
of the United States Environmental Protection Agency, the Region one office,
which is the six New England states and the ten
(10:44):
recognized tribes here in New England. So we talked a
little bit about solar, and we come back to solar,
but let's talk about offshore wind. Okay, Now, when I
think about wind, it's always offshore. I've been in other
parts of the country where the the turbines are in,
you know, in the in the like Kansas, there is
no offshore. It's always lad locked. But we got a
(11:07):
problem offshore because, as I understand it, you got whales
that are being impacted by this. They're throwing blades into
the water. Is there anywhere in America where offshore wind
has is effective.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Well, the most effective at this point is off.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
The coast of New England. The wind is incredibly strong
and constant, and the National Marine Fisheries Service and other
agencies have studied the whale problem and it isn't really
a problem, especially when they've changed some of the sighting
of some of the turbines to not get in the
(11:49):
way of migration routes and things like that. And sure
you're going to have problems like the blade flying off.
But Boyd compared to say the BP oil spill and
any other time you have fossil fuel spills, this is
nothing and this is a huge resource for this region.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
This let me ask you, how did the how did
the how did the I'm being serious with you now.
I understanding that in the last year or so, they've
had a tremendous number of whales wash up ashore off
the New Jersey Coast. And I don't know that they've
been able to figure what what what caused that? But
(12:30):
what are the environmentalists saying about the protection of the whales.
I know that off the cape we deal with sharks
and there's shock, kivity and all of that sort of stuff.
But I assume you've heard the story about the the
uptick in in whale carcasses off the New Jersey coast.
We're not talking about the former governor Chris Christy. By
(12:51):
the way, Let let me make that very clear right now.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Okay, you know, I I don't I know, I've studied.
I've read some of those studies. They're not related to win.
You see upticks in whale death.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
We don't know why suicide.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I mean, when you when you've got these big projects
that are office those it takes years to do the analysis,
the environmental analysis, and the planning to make sure they're
not a problem. And you know, for for for President
Trump to kind of put the brakes on this whole
sector which is just booming. I mean, we're talking in
(13:33):
New England jobs, jobs, jobs, the the kind of renaissance
of New Bedford and Salem and Bridgeport and New London
with new offshore windos. How many how many jobs it's
going to be tens of thousands, It's going to be
thousands where we now multiple thousands. I don't know the
total number, multiple thousands. I mean, I don't know if
(13:53):
you've ever have you ever like driven by most recently,
I think it was New London and and New Bedford
to just have these massive monopiles ready to go out
in the ocean, and you know that there's like there's
supply chain manufacturing going to be on shore, et cetera.
And I just I gotta say I scratched my head
(14:14):
on this one where you know, the President claims there
is an energy emergency and yet he's putting the brakes
on one of the most important and in the pipeline.
I mean, we're talking like we've got you know, gigawats
and gigawats and gigawats ready to go. And you know
it's clean.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We're going to we're going to lose some of the
mathem the non mathematicians. Let me give it to you
more directly. Let's assume that we were able to put
in a substantial number of offshore wind farms. Okay, and
let us assume that we think for a moment, forget
(14:54):
about the whales they got. You know, whatever the cost is,
it's it's a cost that that we have to deal with.
How much would significant offshore windmills bring down the average
winter electric bill in New England? I'm just put it
in dollars and cents.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh Dan, you're you're asking me to answer a question.
I have no idea what the answer to.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But the reason I say, I mean, I don't. The
reason I asked the question is this. It's one thing
to say, hey, let's do this, but I think in
order to convince the public that it's a good idea
and put it, put aside the whale people who are
who are never going to be with you. But principle,
somehow someone's got to quantify it.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But that's okay, And yeah, I don't well, I don't
know what the exact answer is. I do know that
the all the studies have shown that in the long
term that once we have full build out of offshore wind,
our prices will be lower than they are now and
they'll be less volatile. And the volatility is what kills
a business. Right, if you're business that depends or any
(16:01):
or school building owner, you know you can't that or
a homeowner. Right, My electric builds are much higher this
year than last year. How do I budget for my family? Well,
offshore wind it's more constant, not depending on oil, I
mean on gas coming from elsewhere. Those are the things
that are going to help you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Okay, let's talk Let's talk about We talked about solo,
we talked about wind. Let's talk about hydro. I remember
flying on a plane with Governor Hugh Gallon of New Hampshire.
You might not even remember him. He was the governor
of New Hampshire in the late seventies, really smart guy,
and he was talking to me and we were sitting
on the plane and he was talking about hydro Quebec
(16:43):
and how Quebec was the answer. This is in the
late seventies, so it's at least forty years ago. How
much is hydro Quebec or hydro at any anywhere contributing
to our power supply here in New England? Where is
it's high?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I think it's in the twenty plus percent in New England.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
That's because that's.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
At Yeah, well, we don't have that much hydro here
within the region, and we get about I'm sorry, wait, no,
I'm sorry, I'm over speaking. It's more than that. It's
in the tent. It's in the ten to fifteen range.
But the but when I was when I was in
state government in the Romney administration and then in the
Patrick administration I followed. In the Patrick administration, we were
(17:27):
really trying to figure out how to get electricity from
hydro Quebec because they had surplus in a pretty major
way and they were looking for a market and we
were looking for supply. It seems like a perfect match.
And we mentioned the problem of sighting and things like that.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Nimby, I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
It didn't work. And it didn't work because we couldn't
cite that there's been only one of what we thought
we needed three major transmission lines and only one got
permitted because they were blocked in New Hampshire, there were
problems in Maine. It just was a very frustrating I mean,
this is part of your question about the difficulty, David.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I don't mean to be interrupted with you. You've known
so much more about this. So who blocked them in
New Hampshire? And who blocked the transmission lines? And with
these overground transmission lines or underground?
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, they were overground. They were overground, Okay, I think
there were there were, there were local there a couple
of dynamics. There are a bunch of local environmental groups
that weren't happy with the overground transmission lines. And there
were also I mean, I'll pull it put it on
some of the transmission developers. I'm not going to mention names,
but they didn't come in and get participation early and
(18:38):
often enough in a way that the benefits of this
project could be shared by those who were going to
see the wires, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, So Bec was going to make money. So Quebec
was going to make money, but they weren't going to
be able to tap back tap.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Into the energy, yeah, or the or the utility that
was building the American utility. Yeah, I got you share
the benefits, share the profits with the communities along the way,
have them have a seat at the table.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So that's got to be twenty years ago or fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Ago, yeah, fifteen years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I
know that there. I know we're all still working on
trying to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Okay, all right, So we got to take a break.
Nine thirty News. I got callers. I want the callers
to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
I will ask the callers to ask questions, no speeches,
just you know, ask questions. Just do what I've tried
to do. Clearly, you you you know that I see
(19:39):
this just a little differently than Dave does. But he's
somebody who knows a lot about it, and I'm asking
questions that frankly, I don't know the answers to. We'll
be back with Dave Cash, most recently the EPA administrator
here in New England for the Biden administration. He worked
for the Biden administration as the top EPA official here
in New England right up until on January twentieth at
(20:02):
high noon, when on January twentieth of this year, twenty
twenty five until the inauguration of President Trump. And at
that point everyone in the Biden administration had to have
submitted ice room letters of resignation or they whatever. That's
how it goes when there is a transition of power.
There was a complete transition of power. Join the conversation
back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
This, if you're on night Side with Dan Ray on
w BAZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I have a lot of questions to ask my friend
Dave Cash and again, he understands this a lot better
than I do. I think I have some knowledge of it,
but he's the expert. And so let's go to phone calls,
and I want to incorporate as many callers as possible
this hour. We don't often get a chance to talk
about Again, we're we're talking about something that affects every
(20:52):
one of us. If you if you've looked at your
electric bill, you know that something has to change because
it's going in the wrong direction. Uh, you've heard me
criticize the Department of Public Utilities who rolled over like
puppy dogs in my opinion. Let me go to Tom
tom Is in Brockton. Tom you first up with Dave
Cash form EPA Regional administrator here in New England. Go ahead, Tom, okay.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Number one, New York State will not allow a natural
gas pipeline to enter its state as well as exit.
That is harming the rest of the six New England states.
There's plenty of natural gas in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio,
and Kentucky. All right, that's that's number one, number two, So.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Tom, do you a favorite? I just want to check
with Dave okay, because I believe you. But but is
that accurate? You know? Is that the problem?
Speaker 6 (21:51):
I know the state.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I don't know the specifics about New York State, but
I'm not going to argue that's time national gas stop.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Do you touch it to? Please? Tom? Tom be respect,
Tom b respect Please.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I don't know what's going on in New York. Sorry,
what can I tell you? I'm in New England. I
don't know what's going on in New York. But I'm
not doubting that there's plenty of natural gas. I'm not
doubting that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So he's not saying that. What he's saying is that
New York will not permit me.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I know, is not allowing gas to come through. I
get that. I'm just saying I don't know that. That's
all I don't know, Sir Tom accept Come on.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Man, you're involved in the energy energy sector of the
New England States. You should know that. Okay, I digress.
Now the next thing, as far as solar energy, that's
all well and good. I installed a five thousand watt
solar system in my house in Brockton back in two
(22:49):
thousand and eleven. The system, not including the labor and
the materials it costs for the twenty four solar pans,
animals and the inverter twenty to twenty two thousand dollars. Now,
I got an eighty six hundred dollars credit because of
(23:12):
the Obama administration for my federal taxes to pay for
part of that. If I were to take out a
calculator and multiply that out at a five percent interest
rate over twenty years, that would be one hundred and
four approximately one hundred and forty five dollars a month. Now,
(23:33):
at the time in my house in Brockton, I was
paying seventy five to eighty five dollars a month. I
don't have any heavy utilities here, yeah, right, no gas range.
So solar energy is not a panacea. Solar power can
augment the power grid, the cleanest power that we have
(23:57):
that can generate massive quantity of electricity that do not
create greenhouse gases. And I do believe in man made
climate change from carbon You do know what the answer
to that is. It's hydro electric as well as nuclear.
Nuclear power does not create greenhouse gases? Am I right?
(24:21):
Am I wrong? You are correct? Okay, So why is
it when I listen to progressives in this state tell
me that, oh, well, China will eventually catch up the
United States. I'm going to eye the EW retired electrician
I've worked on coal burner power plants and Harris in Lumberport,
(24:46):
West Virginia, where we put scrubbers on those power plants
in the late eighties. China does not put scrubbers on
their power plants. They're well over at eleven hundred active
power plants and continuing to build coal fired power plants.
That doesn't include the rest of the world that they're
(25:07):
not mandating they put that stuff on there.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Hey, Tom, get you get to a question please.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
So so, so the question is, so if we sacrifice
the United States? Uh, energy policy to stop climate change
and the rest of the world doesn't. How is that
going to help out man made climate change?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That's a good question.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
Go ahead, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's a great question when we see the dynamics.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Whoa, whoa, Hey Tom, Tom, do me a favor you
you asked you, you had a three minute question. Please
don't interrupt him as he starts to give an answer.
You're a better gentleman than that.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Tom.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
Go ahead, Dave, thank you.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Uh. Yeah, it's a great question. It's one that you
know has the doubled the United States for a long time.
But I feel like if we are expanding our use
of things like solar in the way that you describe it,
it's not going to be a panacea, certainly not here
in the Northeast. Other parts of the country. It can
(26:11):
provide way more capacity than it can here. Keeping nuclear
and even expanding it, which in fact we did in
the Biden Administrative ainistration. We invested in new nuclear technologies,
safer nuclear technologies, expanding nuclear, bringing hydro resources that we
have we were just talking about before the break from Canada.
(26:32):
That makes a huge amount of sense, and moving to
the real industrial scale, particularly in New England is offshore wind.
And then we become the leaders in both the development
of the technology and the innovation so that the rest
of the globe can be our marketplace, so that we
can sell these technologies. We don't have to buy them
(26:54):
from Europe, which is where we get all our offshore
wind technology right now. And that's the vision that I
think that many have. That this is a long term
vision of moving the United States into a clean energy
future that will be cleaner air, less climate change, growth
of green jobs, innovation, which is what America has always
been great about. So that's that's that's my answer to that.
(27:16):
And then you know, then China, hopefully then China will
see by the way, China just surpassed Tesla in electric
vehicle use because in electric vehicles sales, because they know
they have to clean up their cities. You know, I've
seen the pictures of Beijing and what it looks like
on an awful day, and so they're moving. You know,
why are we letting them clean?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Let me get here before we go to break tom
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yeah, So what you're telling me is that we have
to put our faith in China, which is the world's
biggest pollute the United States that has gone down on
a pollution Please, and don't peel on my legs. Tell
me it's raining.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Come on, Tom, please, Tom, let's have it.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
I want it honest. I want someone to be frank
with me for a change. I don't need someone from
Harvard Square, Cambridge.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Good enough, Tom, I'm going to end it right there.
Thanks very much, Tom for the call. I think you've
been too disrespectful to my guests, and that's not like you.
We'll take a break, Dave and right we'll be right
back on night Side with a couple of more calls.
And I ask simply for polite conversation. If that's too
much to ask, then I find another talk show. Six.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Let's get right back to the phone, so we'll go
to Mark and Saugus. Mark, you're next on Nightside. Please
be polite, ask a couple of questions and go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (28:49):
Hi, Dann Mark from Saugus, Sir, I have a couple
of questions about wind turburns. Why have to be so
big to use smaller ones? Say you're on land the ocean.
Seems like they need an awful lot of maintenance, like
(29:10):
a boat. Always have to work on them and fix them.
And there's something that's going to rot away and fall
off in the ocean.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah, that's the that's the state as highways, but they
don't in the state.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
The state owns land in between the highways, like we
do with the prison down in Denham.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Mm hmm, okay, so let's give me, give me a
chance to respond. Marks two great.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Those are two great questions. And I am not an engineer,
but my understanding is that as the blades get bigger,
they're more efficient. In particularly offshore where the wind blows hard,
they're more efficient and the whole unit becomes more efficient,
so it can produce a lot more electricity for the
amount of material that's used.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
And so.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You know, when offshore technology started developing, it could really
take advantage of the big, wide open space to make
them really large. On land, yes, they are smaller, except
they're getting larger too. But the ones like we've seen,
you know, I remember being around when and I think
they might still be there. On the on Boston City Hall,
(30:19):
a bunch of small ones were put up, and I
think at the airport. They had some too. They're okay,
but they're really you know, they don't produce the kind
of output that you need. So essentially, for wind turbines,
you know, bigger is better and they capture more wind
and convert more of it into electricity. Your other point,
go ahead, Sorry, I'm just gonna say the other point
(30:40):
is there are a lot of states that are trying
to be creative about state land federal land that can
be used in those creative ways. In fact, one of
the things when I was first in the Patrick administration,
we looked at the turnpike and you might note when
you when you go by, I think it's maybe sinateic
(31:00):
on one one of the early when you're heading west
out of Boston, there's some solar panels that are on
the on the burn that's right next to the service
station there. And you know, those are popping up more
and more and more as folks are realizing, hey, we
could do this. And I know there are a lot
of towns that are now covering like parking lots over
their libraries and municipal buildings to take advantage of that
(31:24):
land that can be turned into energy.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Why Mark Mark Cover both the questions.
Speaker 6 (31:31):
Yeah, I mean I think I think they should try
like put them in the mediums of the highways and
maybe well we got some great hills.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
We've got great hills in the Berkshires. If you go
to put them awhere, put them out in the Berkshires
and run the streetline.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
See what happens.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
All right? Okay, Hey, Mark from Zaga is great calls.
Thank you very much. Thanks and gentlemen, thanks, good night.
Who we go to gym in Kansas City, Jim.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Go right ahead, Dan, Hey, thanks for taking my call.
Would be how you've been fantastic? Okay, hey, uh okay,
I'm not gonna I was gonna ask you what happened
if you heard about what happened to Big Bird, but no,
I gotta be respectful. So hey, look at uh have
you ever been up two hundred feet on the outside
(32:17):
of a structure?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
I I I actually have climbed up to the top
of one of the wind turbines that's on the military
base on Cape Cod and it was extraordinary. That was amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Well, okay, I guess what I'm kind of wondering is,
who are you going to get to work on these things?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That's a great question. And here's and here's something I
do know a little bit about this because we had
some federal funding that was part of the Inflation Reduction
Act that was going to workforce development and training. And
I met a guy down in New Bedford and like
four or five years ago, he was down on his luck.
He had lost a couple of jobs. He was really
(32:59):
good with the hands, and then he entered one of
these training programs that then was a pipeline into the
steel workers Union, where he exactly did what you're talking about.
His job now is to climb up these huge poles
out in the ocean to do whatever maintenance is required.
And so at least here in the Northeast, there's like
(33:21):
a huge opportunity to have workforce development and job growth,
particularly in these ports that have been hard hit and
are on hard economic times. So their future is about
being jobs too.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Wow, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Hey, Jim, that is a fabulous question. They couldn't pay
me enough, Jim, I don't know about you.
Speaker 7 (33:44):
Well, that's see, that's what I'm saying. I'm the kind
of guy that'll climb up there. I've done high rise
work before, and I'll do it, but you've got to
pay the right amount of money, and I doubt seriously
whether you can come up with that kind of cabbage.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
All right, fair enough in here, Thanks Jim, great question,
great question. Thanks good. Let's go to Mike and Salem'm
gonna get you and also Walter in from Limits to
go ahead, Mike.
Speaker 8 (34:10):
Hey, how's it going.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Dan doing great? We got a couple of minutes for you.
You go right ahead. What's your comment to question from
my guest Dave Cash?
Speaker 8 (34:17):
I just I just got a question. You know, they're
talking about nuclear being you know, clean and all this,
but what do they do with the nuclear waste when
it's done?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (34:27):
I mean, how.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
Clean is is nuclear? If you know there's waste, same
thing with any other.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
So I think we should put them on rocket ships
and send them out to like Jupiter. You guys are laughing.
I'm serious, No.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
I hear you.
Speaker 8 (34:45):
I watched on on YouTube. They're like burying that stuff
on the ground. But it's like how I mean, how long.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
No one wants and no one wants it? No one
wants it. They want they buried in places like Utah
down some mountain.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Or whatever, Mike, Mike, that question is like the sixty
four it's like the sixty four billion dollar question. And
it goes back to Tom's point earlier. And I didn't
get to answer this, but that is that that's the
It doesn't cause you know, climate change, but it does
have this nuclear waste problems which hasn't really really been
(35:19):
solved yet, and they're trying to develop new technologies. Again
this administration, by the administration invested in that. But that's
a it's a very good point. And maybe you're also
thinking about like the there's some toxic chemicals that are
in batteries. And one of the interesting things that I
know the Department of Energy. I was in an environment,
not in energy, but I know that there's a big
(35:40):
investment in how do you create a circular economy so
that when the battery reaches the end of its life,
you can take out the component parts and recycle it.
And because all those rare earth minerals are still in there,
and they're coming up with ways to do that that
are economical.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
All right, my great question. I want to get one
more in if I can. Okay, my friend, thank you
so much. I have a great Mike uh, Walter and
Levens Or Walter, you're the last of the hour, and
go right ahead your own daycast.
Speaker 9 (36:07):
My question is back in deval Patrick's administration, he passed
or had a law passed, and just correct me if
it really did happen that the electric companies are able
to recoup any loss revenue from people installing so and
(36:29):
when and whatnot at the houses without even going through
the registerat you're requesting increases. Is that still going on.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Now? I'm not I'm not exactly sure what you're meaning,
but so it was, it might be this and this
happened is happening all over the country right there. Electric
utilities have an incentive fell as much electricity as they can,
right because they get paid by the killowot hour for
the electricity to go through their buyers, right, So they're
(37:01):
not really going to want a homeowner to reduce their
energy use, so they're not going to be too helpful
on the energy efficiency side, even though it would help
the homeowner, they would lose money. So many states have
put together these kind of plans where they don't recoup
all of it, but they would recoup some so that
(37:22):
they have an incentive to participate in helping the homeowners,
you know, save money, because that's what this is. I've
got to be all about. It's got to be about
helping the customer lower their rates, lower their bills, not
be hit by a winter like this. So I think
that was I don't know the specifics, but there are
a lot of plans that have incentives for the companies
(37:45):
to benefit, to have an incentive to make sure that
their customers use energy efficiency things. I mean, that's that,
and then everybody.
Speaker 9 (37:53):
Back when it was passed, I remember reading a nautical
in the local newspaper and I killed myself for not
saving it.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
But it was like, you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
All right, we got it. Hey, Walter, I hate to
do this to you, but you called late and we're
now flat up against the ten o'clock news.
Speaker 9 (38:12):
So thanks for raising that issue going to that law.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So we will. Thanks Walter, I appreciate it very much.
Some good calls, challenging calls, David, more than hell your own,
as always, I appreciate it. We got to do this
again because there's a whole we only scratch the surface tonight. Okay,
let's agree.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
With you, and you know we got we got Earthstake
coming up in April, maybe that would be a good
time to do it. End of April.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, maybe maybe a little later than that, you know,
but let me be the first to wish you a
happy Earth Day. Okay, that's important.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Thank you, Dan. It's always a pleasure to be on
this show. I love hearing the questions from your listeners.
Their sharp, they're interesting, they're intelligent, they're just like, get
to the heart of what these issues are, even if
they get a little hot under the collar.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That's okay, Yep, yep, Tom. Tom was one of my
more callers, but I think it stepped over the line
a little bit, but we'll leave that one go again.
You and I don't see the world the same way,
but I think we have good conversations, which is all
I want to love with. All Right, David, thank you soon,
Thank you again, my friend. We'll talk soon. When we
get back. We're going to continue our conversation about this
(39:20):
now famous signal chat kerfuffle. I think it's a fascinating story.
The Democrats are trying their best and the Republicans are
trying to brush it under the rug. I'd love to
know what you think. We'll be back on Night's side
right after this
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