June 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Methuen native Scott Kerman shares conversations he had with former Massachusetts Gov. Mike Dukakis in his newest book, The Duke: Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. Through humor and insight, Kerman remembers a multi-layered man with deep civic passions. Kerman is the humor columnist at The Eagle-Tribune and joined Dan tonight!
Now you can leave feedback as you listen to WBZ NewsRadio on the NEW FREE iHeart Radio app! Just click on the microphone icon in the app, and be sure to set WBZ NewsRadio as your #1 preset!
Now you can leave feedback as you listen to WBZ NewsRadio on the NEW FREE iHeart Radio app! Just click on the microphone icon in the app, and be sure to set WBZ NewsRadio as your #1 preset!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Boston's
Nies Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All right, welcome back everyone. It's eleven, Dan Watkins, thank
you very much. I think it's eleven oh eight if
I'm not mistaken. And we're gonna take a little breather
from the controversy of last Hour and the economics of
the nine o'clock hour. And we have a very special
guest with us tonight. His name is Scott Kerman. Scott
(00:30):
is a Massachusetts native. He's the humor columnist at the
Eagle Tribune newspaper. He's the author of six previous books,
including the World According to Scott series, and he is
a comedian by practice. He's been on a lot of
very well known national broadcast Letterman Show and places like that.
(00:58):
And he has written a book, a book that I
don't want to call it an authorized biography, but it's
a biography of sort entitled The Duke Weekly Conversations with
the Last Honest Politician. And I kind of agree with that,
to be honest with you, because Mike Ducaccus was a
(01:19):
very honest guy in my opinion. Scott Kerman, welcome to
Knight said, how.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Are you fine?
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Thanks?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, I've enjoyed the book. Those of us who were
working in this town or living in this town when
Mike Decoccus was governor beginning in nineteen seventy four, when
he was first elected. He was defeated by Ed King
in a Democratic primary in nineteen seventy eight, but then
he came back and got re elected in eighty two,
(01:50):
and elected again in eighty six, ran and lost the
presidency in eighty eight, and has left the governor's office
in nineteen ninety one. So he's thirty five years out
of public office. But he's still alive and doing well. Sadly,
his wife passed away just within the last few weeks.
(02:15):
But you've spent a lot of time with Mike Tecoccus.
As a matter of fact, you met him when you
were an eleven year old young man, and so you've
known Mike Tococcus for a long time. This is this
is a fun book to read, particularly those of us
who remember him well and agree with his honesty. He
(02:40):
was almost in some respects too honest a politician. Other
than the fact that you met him when you were
eleven years old, and obviously you've admired him greatly. You
admire him to this day greatly. How did you work
this out where you could write? I think, you know
it's the only biog I've ever seen of Michael Michael Docaccus.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yes, thank you. Yeah. So, twenty years ago I came
to Brookline and we reconnected, and so I started a
show called The Grand Studenters Live. It's kind of like
we talked about the sports tuttle, So in this case
it was my mailman, my barber, and my two best
friends who are season ticket holders at the Red Sox.
(03:25):
So we started this show fifteen years ago and my
first guest was Bob Bryan of the Boston Globe. And
my second guest, well I asked him, was Governor Michael Dicaccus.
I said, have you ever been on a sports show before?
He says no, But you know I like you, so
why don't we do it? So he was on our
show annually for each year, and then Dan about four
(03:47):
years ago. All of a sudden, you know, Governor Decaucus,
you can be talking about one subject and he'll just
ammiliately have a completely separate train of thought. We're talking
about the Red Sox and how they stink at that moment,
and he says, Scott, I can't understand how anyone can
be anything but honest. I was brought up to believe
that honesty wasn't a choice, it was the way you
(04:08):
lived your life. You tell the truth. This is non negotiable.
You do what's right. It's not that hard. I've never
understood lying. And Dan, all of a sudden, it just
this light just came above my head and I'd go, Wow,
there's something here. There's something greater than just the thirteen
pages in the Wikipedia of Governor Micha Michael Decaccus. So
(04:32):
next week I spoke to him. I said, can I
write a book with you? And he said I'd love to,
but I don't want it to be all about me,
So I said, okay, I'll make it about me too.
So it's his words, it's my words the end. And
the response has been incredible and it's been out a
few weeks and couldn't be happier with it.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, it's an easy read. It runs about trying to
just look at the end here about one hundred and
fifty pages or so. There's some pictures, and it does
touch upon his life and I want to go through
it because he's a guy who came very close to
(05:16):
becoming President of the United States in nineteen eighty eight.
I will tell you that I was signed to cover
George Bush on election night in Houston, Texas, and I
was down there a few days in advance, and there
was no question that Texas was going to go for
George Bush. The family deep roots in Texas. Mike Decaccus
(05:36):
was not a threat to win Texas, although his running
mate was Lloyd Benson, the Senator from Texas. And I
remember talking to Lee Atwater the night before. Atwater was
sort of perceived to be George Bush's henchman. He was
the guy that played rough politically, and I remember having
(05:58):
a conversation with Water that night, and the polls suggested
that Bush was the favorite to win the next day.
But there were about ten states that were in play.
Many of the states were sort of Midwestern states, some
of which went in subsequent elections either to Bill Clinton
or to President Barack Obama. And if all of those
(06:20):
states had fallen the right way, you know, Docacas carried
the states that you would expect Maryland, Massachusetts, most of
the New England states, New York, California, Washington, and Bush
cleaned up down south in the Plain States and also
in the Midwest, and a lot of those states, and
I don't have the number in front of me, but
states like Iowa and Minnesota, which eventually became, you know,
(06:43):
fairly democratic states. They went to Bush. But Atwater was
not comfortable. He did not sleep well the night before,
although again Bush did win. And I remember Governor Ducaccas
was doing this like forty eight or sixty hour marathon.
He was just flying in a plane, you know, sleeping, catnapping.
(07:06):
He was, you know, sprinting to the end and hitting
as many airports as he could with rallies. And I
thought at the time, hey, this thing might be closer
than people imagined. And it was closer than people imagined.
And I hope you can take some consolation in that.
(07:27):
Have you talked to him about you must, I know
in the book you talked about the election of eighty eight.
I mean, there aren't too many people, As you mentioned
in the book, there's only five living Americans who were
this party standard bearers who were not elected president. Al
Gore is still alive. Hillary Clinton was the nominee who lost.
(07:52):
Mitt Romney is in that very special category. John Kerry
and Mike Twocaucus.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, and he's the oldest one. Absolutely, it's like the
time for us to all have breakfast. It's ftgs, you know.
And yes, remarkable. He had a seventeen point lead for
people who don't remember or weren't born during that election,
had a seventeen point lead coming out of the convention.
So three things happen, and we talked about these three
(08:19):
things during the course of the book. That kind of
changed things. And he put it in order, the debate question,
the second debate in LA, the debate question concerning the
death penalty, the tank photo, and the Willie Horton at And.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I think I think Bush was very effective with the
Boston Harbor cleanup, right, which I think also heard of.
We're going to get to all of those, I promise,
but I got to take a commercial break. My guest
is Scott Kerman. He's written a book called The Duke
Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. You conducted these conversations,
(09:01):
was it over a.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Full year, of course of three plus years at his
kitchen table.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay, at his kitchen table on Perry Street in Brookline.
If you'd like to share a memory, ask a question
about Mike Tocaccus, who was still with us, lost his
the love of his life, Kitty Tucaccus a few weeks ago. Sadly,
but he's he's ninety two years old and still going
(09:31):
strong and as sharp as he ever was mentally. He's
maintained his his intellect long past the ages of Donald Trump,
Ronald Reagan, and Joe Biden. He could if he had
been elected, he could have handled the office. We'll take
a break, my guest, Scott Kerman. If you like to
(09:51):
ask a question, to join the conversation, you're welcome to
join us. And if you'd like to share a memory
six one seven ten thirty six months seven nine three
one ten thirty. I'd like to change it up every
once in a while here on Night Side. I know
we had a very hot last hour dealing with Dave
Paleologus and Poles polling today, but these hours are important
(10:15):
to me as well I hope they are to you.
Feel free to join the conversation. If you have a
memory of reflection, probably most of you at some point
have met Mike Dukakis. Feel free to share any of
those stories as well, we'll be back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
My guest to Scott Kerman. He's just written a book,
The Duke Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. It
was a little bit of a sense of Tuesdays with
Maury in here, Mitch Album's very successful book of several
years ago. Explain to us just the setting every week
that you would sit with him. Explain to us, paint
(11:00):
the picture of the location of the conversations that were
in his kitchen on Perry Street and Brookline, if I'm
not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, in this kitchen, just sitting there with him and I.
You know, Kitty would come down. Kitty was ailing from
the whole period of time that I was there. Kitty
was ailing. So she would come down though in her bathrobe,
and we would talk together and have lots of laughs,
and then she'd go back upstairs. But it really was
(11:28):
just him and I, not really anyone else, no distractions,
and just of course we have a great friendship. But
as you see the book, as it goes on, the
friendship gets closer and closer, and then he opens up
more and more with me. So initially, Dan some of
the stuff he would say off the record because you
just used to talking to people like Dan Ray and
(11:49):
off the record on the record. But then after about
a few months everything was on the record, and to
be honest with you, he lets fly and a lot
of people. And when Michael Decocas doesn't like you, he
does he can't say your name, He calls you that
there there was three that there was that guy and
(12:10):
you can, I guess, I'm pretty easy who that guy is.
They had a coccadoonal dog and he didn't like him,
so it was that dog. And then the.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Third was how did a politician not like his dog?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
He didn't like this dog?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
That was his dog that you're talking about, right, No.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It was Kitty's dog. It was Kitty's dog.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well okay, but come on, it was the dog living
in the house with him and with Kitty. I know,
first of all, politicians have to love dogs. So that's okay,
I'll give him a pass on that. Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
What the dog when they gave the dog away? And
he said he didn't mourn the loss of the dog.
So it was.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
A dog. But that's okay, go ahead, Scott.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Well ninety years old. Yeah, it was a little more
difficult than normal. But and of course he didn't like
Charlie Baker because of the way he handled the tea.
And you could be talking.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
About heated gloves and he would mention something about Charlie
Baker and the tea. So it was kind of that
openness that that that happened during the course of this
book that I think people are appreciating.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
No, No, I totally get that. Who who is the
He didn't like the dog and he didn't like Charlie Baker.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That guy, which of course is Trump. Yeah, I mean,
you know Trump. He talks to Trump. Yet I mean yet,
it's funny.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's funny. I got to know Mike Docaccas pretty well.
I would have assumed that Mike doucaccas, Harvard Law school
guy Swathmore, probably would have seen in Charlie Baker some
things that he admired. That's kind of surprises me, because
Charlie Baker was not a Trump guy. I can see
(13:59):
Mike not liking Trump. I know that there were other
Republicans who we talked about who he did not like, Okay,
but I could see him actually bonding with Baker over
Baker's independence within you know, the Republican Party. But that's fine, so.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You can't pay anything. Look, he was it was all
about the tea when it came to Charlie Baker. He
never said anything about him personally or any other issue.
It's his beloved tea. And you know he wants to
connect North and the South station worse than any human
being of his planet. But it was the way he
handled the tea was with how that came out in
(14:44):
this book.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So let me ask you that I'm going to ask
a couple of questions that may or may not be
in the book, So bear with me. He's the what
he runs for president in nineteen eighty eight, He's more
than the governor of Massachusetts. He's more than the Democratic
nominee for president. He at that point becomes the titular
leader of the Democratic Party nationally. That's traditionally what happens,
(15:08):
particularly when you're the non incumbent party. Give us his thoughts,
if you will, on some of the people who came
after him. Bill Clinton spoke at the convention that Mike
Dukaccus was nominated at in Atlanta in nineteen eighty eight
and Clinton gave one of the longest, most boring speeches
(15:33):
in the history of any national political convention. I don't
think that Mike Dukaccus, probably down deep, would have liked
a Bill Clinton. I could be wrong, but I'd love
to know.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
You know, no, well, he liked him.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
They were great friends. Yeah, they were great friends. It's interesting.
First of all, he beats the Coccus beat some heavyweights
for the Democratic nomination, Joe Biden or Jesse Jackson, dip
Dick Geppart, and Gary Hart and Paul Simon from Illinois.
So he beats heavyweights, the guys who ended up, of course,
(16:11):
one being president, one being vice president, and almost president.
So that in itself is an incredible accomplishment. So I
asked him, so, you're absolutely what you said is correct.
In so Clinton is the keynote speaker in eighty eight,
do you have any conversation with Clinton about being your
running mate? And he says no, I never considered it.
(16:34):
So I thought, wow, that's kind of strange because all
of a sudden, four years later, this guy's going to
be president of the United States, but yet he wasn't
even he didn't even get an interview.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
But to this, remember this. Their careers were very parallel
in some regard. Obviously, Clinton's a little younger most I mean,
you know, yeah, he's he's about twelve years younger or so,
maybe fourteen years younger than Docuccus. But they're both governors,
(17:04):
and they're both governors who tasted the sting of defeat.
Clinton was beaten in nineteen eighty. Ducaccus was beaten by
Ed King in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The reason she's never got over just so you know,
he's never got over there.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely, it was his own party that turned him away.
For Ed King, I thought he might have looked at
Clinton a little differently. Bill Clinton was the antithesis of
Mike Ducaccus in the sense that Bill Clinton worked with
the Republicans once he knew that he had problems politically,
(17:44):
he worked with Newt Gingrich Okay. Also on a personal life,
Bill Clinton's personal behavior in the White House, none of
that ever would have happened if Mike Ducaccus had been
President of the United States. He was a husband of
Kitty Ducaccas, first, last, and always. He was a devoted
husband of devoted dad. And I'm surprised that he although
(18:09):
he might have admired Clinton's success in ninety two and
the fact that he was a Democrat, and maybe Ducaccus
thinks that that he was kind of the he was
the pathfinder, if you will, for Bill Clinton. Here you
had a governor from from the south Arkansas that was
(18:29):
able to break through and get elected and beat the
same guy that he lost to. I can understand where
he might admire that, but I just don't understand the
sort of the behavior of Clinton. I mean, Clinton was
kind of a wild man. Mike Ducaccus was not a wild.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Man, and complete opposite. Yeah, but they both were part
of the National Governors Association, to which you know Mike
Dicacus led, so they were they worked together and they
were very friendly. So they did have a good relationship.
And yes, he has great respect for Clinton, of the
moral side, not so much of course.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
What about what did what did he think of I
could see that he would admire then Senator Obama, young
senator from Illinois, who wild the convention here in Boston
in two thousand and four. Did what did Docaccus think
of Hillary Clinton? I think he would have liked Hillary
(19:30):
Clinton more than he liked her husband, because she held
that relationship together. And she also was not a Democrat
who was willing to compromise her positions. She's much more
similar to Ducaccus philosophically than he was to her husband
(19:54):
explained that once a bit.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Did he Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, you nailed it, Dan, Absolutely,
they both would have been I mean working presidents, you know.
And and he had great respects for Hillary. But I
did have, you know, to mention this in the book.
I said, well, did Hillary reach out to you when
she was running for president? And he said, no, she
did not. And I said, were you disappointed by that?
(20:18):
He said, you know, and and the caucuses such classy
and respectful way. It would have been nice to have
received a call from her. And you know, so there
are certain parts and you know, when you talk about
it about being the leader of the.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Book, Mike Mike Docaucus, and I hope he's not listening
to Hillary Clinton. He was yesterday's news.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Well, but you know he said this, Well, where if
I was very interesting Dan, and you just you've had
brought that you had just brought this up. I said,
were you the leader of the party the day after
the election, after the presidential election, were you still the
leader of the party. And he said, no, that's it.
I lost. No one cares you move on. And I
(21:03):
thought that was very interesting. And you know we're seeing
that in the same case with Kamala Harris. You know,
she's not the leader of the party anymore. You know,
I don't know who is.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But Roney mid Romney lost. He wasn't the leader of
the party. Al Gore lost, John Carry lost, John Kerry
wasn't the leader of the party. He won. Onto different
and other things. Okay, we got to take a break.
We're at the newscast. I want to talk about the
Willie Brown case, the Willy Horton case, excuse me, the
(21:33):
Willie Horton case, which I think heard him. You're familiar
with that case, of course, the question about capital punishment,
his day in the tank. This is a guy who
actually served in the military on the front lines in Korea,
not in a war time, but in a war zone,
and yet he was pillared, battered from pillar to post
(21:56):
for the ride in the tank. So we got a
bunch of things to talk about. I'm hoping my audience
might have some interest in this topic as well. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten,
thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Scott
sent me this book, which I have read most of. Uh.
It's a great read for those of us who are
(22:17):
political junkies and history buffs. We will be back with
my guest, Scott Kerman, who himself has a very interesting career,
both as a humor columnist at the Eagle Tribune newspaper,
but as someone who met Mike Ducaccus at the age
of eleven on when Mikedecaccus was a governor back in
(22:38):
nineteen seventy seven, so he's known him a long time.
I spent a lot of time with Governor Decacus. Always
enjoyed my time with him. Always accessible, always very honest,
not someone who is a games player at all, and
that probably might have hurt him, to be honest with you.
We'll be back on Nightside talking uh the presidential candidacy
(22:59):
and the career of Michael Stanley Ducaucus. Back on Nightside
right after this. Light these lines up, folks. I'm disappointed
that no one wants to join this conversation. I love
this topic. I hope some of you do as well.
We're back after this.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It's Night Side with Dan ray On.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Boston's News radio, where this is Scott Scott Kerman. He's
written a book called The Duke Weekly Conversations with the
Last Honest Politician. I think it's a great title. These
these conversations were in Governor Ducaucus's kitchen on Perry Street,
in small front lawn. I remember the week that he
(23:41):
was nominated and we were trying to figure out who's
going to pick his vice president. I was over on
Perry Street and he's out there mowing his lawn with
a hand held lawnmower, not a gas powered lawnmower, one
of the old lawnmowers, all push law and more. Okay,
let's talk about that question that was asked of him
(24:07):
back in nineteen eighty eight about if his wife was
a really nasty question by Bernard Shaw. This was the
question at a presidential debate, if your wife was raped
and murdered, would you still oppose the death penalty?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
That was essentially a question, right, Yeah, that's exactly what
it was.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Which was what he believed. But characteristically he doesn't regret
the honest answer.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Right, he regrets it. I mean, you've got the answering it.
First of all, Kitty was in the front row when
he said, when Shaw asked, if Katy Decarcus is raped
and murdered, would you favor and a real, irrevocable death
penalty for her killer? First question out of the gate, and
he goes no, And I think, you know I opposed
(24:55):
the death penalty during all my life. That was Look,
he was in a difficult situation, Dan. If he answers
the question straight up like he did, he's going to
look insensitive to his wife's imaginary plight, right if he
reversed his course and says, oh, you know, if you're
talking about my wife, of course, you know I believe
(25:17):
in the death penalty, you know. But so he was
in a difficult situation. I had a problem. I think
I had a problem with the question more than he does.
And I just thought, you know, it was improper the
way he worded it. And they had practiced the debate
question but the death penalty, but they should didn't practice
that type of question. And he regrets it. But as
(25:40):
you see, as the book goes on, he comes to
grips with that the answer was the improper answer, and
then I don't want to, you know, ruin it for you.
But he answers the question the way he thinks he
should have answered it, so he kind.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Of that part of the book. I'll look full it
to it. I think it was one of those that
was the question struck me as the uh, when did
you stop beating your wife question? It's like, if you
accept the premise of the question, no matter how you
answer that question, it's it's it's an improper question in
(26:19):
my opinion, although as a journalist it was it was
an interesting question. I think there's some suspicion that that
question might have been planted by the Bushmen.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
I have a suspicion absolutely it had let waters uh
fingerprints all over not show didn't ask any questions to H. W.
Bush about Barbara bus Bush's imaginary uh situation where she's uh,
you know, criminalized, so victimiz.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It's a question that I think was just way out
of bouts. Let's get to some phone calls here as well,
and we'll continue to talk about some of the sillient
points of the book. Let's go to kenon Waltham, Ken
next on Nice I. First, this are with Scott Kerman.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Go right ahead, Hi, Dan, Scott.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
You know one thing about the Lost nineteen eighty eight campaign,
I thought generated one of the funniest lines I ever heard.
In nineteen ninety two, when Paul Fungus announced his run
for the presidency, he said I'm not running because I'm
a Greek Liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. I thought it was
a great line.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I did.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Massachusetts politicians haven't had a lot of success, whether they're
Republicans or Democrats. Mitt Romney, Ted Kennedy, Mike Ducacas, Paul
Saugust Berry.
Speaker 7 (27:41):
We'll get to the finals, but they can't bring home
the championship.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:46):
I didn't meet Michael Decaccas once, and if we have time,
I can tell you about that. But what I really
wanted to ask either one of you is one thing
I never understood in nineteen eighty eight is what the
problem was that Mike Ducaccus had with Evelyn Murphy and
his lieutenant governor. And I really thought the state suffered
(28:08):
with Ducaccus, you know, campaigning for president and not giving
the reins up, at least in an acting sense to
Evelyn Murphy.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I think he had a problem. We'll see what Scott says.
I don't think Governor Ducaccus had a problem with it.
But I think Governor Ducaccus wanted to prove and I
think he was capable of continuing to discharge his obligations
as governor while a candidate for the White House. I
think that he would have perceived that as an acknowledgment
(28:40):
and an admission that he was not everything that he
believed he was.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
Go ahead, Scott, Yeah, again, you know, I didn't mention
that in the book, But I don't think he was
a big fan of hers, and I don't think that
he completely trusted her when he was outside the state
what she might do.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Again, this is just a conversations I've had with him.
So and there were times where they did not include
her in meetings. So you figured that out. So yeah,
and then that might have hurt him as far as
the presidential election, where he stayed in the state and
(29:20):
was working in the state when he should have been,
you know, campaigning across the country. And I think there
may be an it may have been. Of course, we're
talking about a long period of time and Evelyn Murphy.
That may have been because of her.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I don't know. I covered it at the time. I
didn't pick up any distrust. Ken. It's interesting. You're a
pretty good observer. I didn't realize that there was any distrust.
I felt that Murphy and Ducacus were pretty close philosophically.
I mean, I can see where I don't know, you know,
he was stung by the ed King defeat. I don't
(29:57):
think Murphy was an ed King democrat. To the best
of my knowledge, I thought she was a micrococcus democrat.
Did I misperceive that? Ken?
Speaker 7 (30:06):
Uh? No, I don't think you did, but they definitely.
My recollection is that he kind of, like what Scott said,
wouldn't invite her to meetings. There was definitely distance between
them for whatever the reason was, and it didn't it
didn't seem to be political ideology, you know, or something.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Okay, well, good enough, great question, Ken, you stumped us.
Let's keep rolling here, go to thanks again.
Speaker 7 (30:33):
I thought she gave a great enter actually, that he
wouldn't want to give up the reins and it might
hurt his presidency, So you think.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
That was it. I think that he prided himself on that.
You know, he was in great shape physically. I remember
talking to him. He used to be a runner and
he stopped running, and I was a runner at the time,
believe it or not. And he cautioned me. We would
talk personally and it'd say, you know, stop running, just
walk or whatever. Now, as it turns out, I do
an elliptical, and whenever you tell me get an olympical,
(31:01):
I think of Mike Tucaucus because you know, you don't
have the impact of running. But I was. I was
out running, you know, three four five miles every day
back in the time. And he he was a he
was a power walker at that point, and he was
only he was in his mid fifties in eighty eight.
(31:24):
He was a power walker and he was damn proud.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Remember he picks up litter. He picks up litter while
he's walking.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oh yeah, no waste, no waste of effort there. Hey, Ken,
thank you much. You got to keep running here because
they got a break coming up. Okay, thanks Bell, appreciate
the call.
Speaker 7 (31:39):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thank you, Ken, take a break, coming right back on
night Side. Ken is a regular listener and a contributor
to night Side with Scott Kermin The Duke Weekly Conversations
with the Last Honest Politician. I think that's an accurate title.
All of a sudden, our phone lines are blown up here,
So we got a bunch of calls to try to
get to everyone. I'm going to try to be get
(32:00):
to everyone in everyone in here, stay with us. Back
on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w BZ,
Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Okay, back to the phones we go. We're going to
try to get everybody in. My guest is Scott Kerman.
He's written a book called The Duke, That being Michael Ducaccus,
former Governor of Massachusetts nineteen eighty eight presidential nominee the
Democratic Party. Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. Eileen.
We're getting a little tight on time, but thank you
for calling in. You were next on Nightside. Go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Well, I met Mike Ducaccus when we lived in Brookline
and it was nineteen sixty two. I don't know when
he was running. Yeah, our first baby had just been born,
and I remember he climbed up to the third floor
(32:56):
of our apartment in Brookline and had a very very
interesting discussion with my husband, who was a refugee from
East Germany and at that time an instructor at Harvard.
But I just remember that visit and I was dealing
(33:17):
with a slightly fretful baby that I remember the.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Well, that was when he was he was running for
state representative, I assume.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Correct, exactly. Yeah, yeah, he was in that between sixty
two and seventy. He was in the outse of rep.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah. Wow, that's a great memory. That's you never would
have thought that that guy that had walked up to
the two flights of stairs so the third floor would
be the Democratic presidential nominee. What was you know? Those
that twenty six years later?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Yeah, yeah, well it was a it was a very
interesting He was so interested in my husband's experiences growing
up in East Germany, and I thought that was uh,
that was impressive.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Real well, that that's Mike Ducaccus. Thanks, thanks, I Leen
and got to keep rolling here. By the way, I
think it's important to mention that I know Ducaccas was.
Does he regret the the photograph in the tank? Be
quick for me on this one, Scott.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
He does, but he doesn't really understand all, you know,
the all the attention it's gotten over the years, So
he does, yes, absolutely regrets it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well, you have a great picture in the in the
book of him standing on a tank. Uh, in in Korea,
South Korea, when he was, you know, on close, if
not in close to the d m Z as an
active duty US Army member of the US Army. So
this was a guy. Now he's also running against a
(34:49):
guy who had his plane shot down and was pulled
out of the drink. And they have to have that videotape.
So even though Mike Ducaccus serves his time on the
front lines in Korea, it's tough to beat, you know,
George Bush's picture of him being pulled onto that boat
out of the water.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Roland. You're going to go to Neil in Watertown. Neil,
You're next on Nightsager, right ahead.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
I have two questions, and since we're short on time,
maybe you could just say yes or no. Regarding my memory,
I remember that he wouldn't say I'm a liberal. He
just he was afraid maybe and I'm maybe afraid to
say politically. And then the last week he said, yes,
I'm a liberal in the sense of Harry Truman, and
(35:38):
he surged a little bit because of that. And just
I remember at the time liberal all of a sudden
became a dirty ward or something that this.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Was during the Reagan presidency that he was running and
Ronald Reagan was a very popular president. I don't ever
remember him, but I think Neil's recollection might be better.
I don't remember him refusing to identify as a liberal.
I don't think that would be the sort of game
he would play. Scott Well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
I mean mentioned that. He's when I asked him, who
is he running against Reagan? Or Bush said I was
running against Reagan. So I thought it was very interesting. Yeah.
But yeah, I mean he's never shied away from being liberal. No,
absolutely not. I mean you know, when when you think
Michael Decacus, you think of the liberal.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (36:24):
But did let Water apologized what he did to the caucus?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Did I mentioned that? Yeah? I mentioned that he got
sick and then on his literally on his death that
he called up Governor Dacacus and he apologized.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
What did he apologize for.
Speaker 8 (36:43):
The dirty tricks?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Just Willie Orton basically that, yeah, yeah, absolutely, just all
of that, you know, just the way things went played out.
And again, the Caucus has no ill feeling toward at Water.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
What does that make true? And that makes me respect Adwater?
I was unaware of that. That makes me respect Adwater
a little bit, but because back in those days, I mean,
dirty tricks were were part of the business. I remember
when Nixon was running, I think it was in sixty eight.
His campaign slogan was Nixon's the One. And there was
(37:19):
a guy named Dick Tuck who was the ultimate dirty trickster.
He got about fifty pregnant women, most of whom, if
not all, were black, to parade around the convention Center
in Miami. They were all like seven, eight, nine months
pregnant with Nixon's the one sides.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yes, thanks very all right, thanks.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Thanks Neil, appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Good good night.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I got to get two more in here for you
at least.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Okay, I just asked the governor if the Atwater had been,
you know, running your campaign, and then he finished my sentence,
what I have won? He said, Probably.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I would have expected for him to say I wouldn't
want I wouldn't have wanted him to be running. But
that's okay, Jackie Dorchester, Jack, next time you're in, Jack,
you're you're on with my guest, Scott K. Kerman.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Go ahead, Jack, Okay.
Speaker 9 (38:11):
Well, first off, I'm hoping you'll get tacked to the
Perkins School. So you can put this on on boys.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, they can pull it down. They just have to
go to Nightside and demand and that's available for everyone,
and anyone at the Perkins School that's interested can pull
it down. Sometime tomorrow we.
Speaker 9 (38:31):
Put it on. Putting on talking books, you know that's
up to you. I knew Mike the Cactus from when
he ran uh for Little Tetor governor under Kevin White,
which led to us running for governor and yep four
and that worked on all his campaigns.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Well, good, appreciate it. Appreciate you taking the time to call.
Do you have a question for Scott Jack? We only
have about a in it left.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Yeah. Well, like I said, I'm just hoping it would say, uh.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Okay, we got that, we got that noted, and may
I hope you can turn this into a talking book
I think is what Jack is suggesting. Thanks to Thank
you very much, Jack, appreciate it. I'm gonna get David
from Jamaica plane in. David, I can give you like
twenty seconds, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I was just curious if Ducacas passed.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That rubicon of you called him honest.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I believe he was just more truthful. Is there a
distinction between the two.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I think that your answer go ahead, Okay, I think
I think.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Yeah, I think both fine. And you know it's funny,
he said. You know, Scott, I'm not the last honest politician.
I said. It's a metaphor, but it feels like it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Okay. I think we're done here. We're almost out of time,
right okay, Uh, Scott. People can get this book The
Duke on Amazon. Thank you so much. I got to run.
We're out of time. Thank you very much. We ran
it up to the last minute. All dogs, all cats,
all pets go to heaven. That's why Pal Charlie Rails,
who passed fifteen years ago in Fiby. That's why your
(40:12):
pets are a past. They love you and you love them.
You'll see them again, see again tomorrow. Night everyone, Thanks
Gott Kerman. The Duke on Amazon dot com. Good night everyone,
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Boston's
Nies Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All right, welcome back everyone. It's eleven, Dan Watkins, thank
you very much. I think it's eleven oh eight if
I'm not mistaken. And we're gonna take a little breather
from the controversy of last Hour and the economics of
the nine o'clock hour. And we have a very special
guest with us tonight. His name is Scott Kerman. Scott
(00:30):
is a Massachusetts native. He's the humor columnist at the
Eagle Tribune newspaper. He's the author of six previous books,
including the World According to Scott series, and he is
a comedian by practice. He's been on a lot of
very well known national broadcast Letterman Show and places like that.
(00:58):
And he has written a book, a book that I
don't want to call it an authorized biography, but it's
a biography of sort entitled The Duke Weekly Conversations with
the Last Honest Politician. And I kind of agree with that,
to be honest with you, because Mike Ducaccus was a
(01:19):
very honest guy in my opinion. Scott Kerman, welcome to
Knight said, how.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Are you fine?
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Thanks?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, I've enjoyed the book. Those of us who were
working in this town or living in this town when
Mike Decoccus was governor beginning in nineteen seventy four, when
he was first elected. He was defeated by Ed King
in a Democratic primary in nineteen seventy eight, but then
he came back and got re elected in eighty two,
(01:50):
and elected again in eighty six, ran and lost the
presidency in eighty eight, and has left the governor's office
in nineteen ninety one. So he's thirty five years out
of public office. But he's still alive and doing well. Sadly,
his wife passed away just within the last few weeks.
(02:15):
But you've spent a lot of time with Mike Tecoccus.
As a matter of fact, you met him when you
were an eleven year old young man, and so you've
known Mike Tococcus for a long time. This is this
is a fun book to read, particularly those of us
who remember him well and agree with his honesty. He
(02:40):
was almost in some respects too honest a politician. Other
than the fact that you met him when you were
eleven years old, and obviously you've admired him greatly. You
admire him to this day greatly. How did you work
this out where you could write? I think, you know
it's the only biog I've ever seen of Michael Michael Docaccus.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yes, thank you. Yeah. So, twenty years ago I came
to Brookline and we reconnected, and so I started a
show called The Grand Studenters Live. It's kind of like
we talked about the sports tuttle, So in this case
it was my mailman, my barber, and my two best
friends who are season ticket holders at the Red Sox.
(03:25):
So we started this show fifteen years ago and my
first guest was Bob Bryan of the Boston Globe. And
my second guest, well I asked him, was Governor Michael Dicaccus.
I said, have you ever been on a sports show before?
He says no, But you know I like you, so
why don't we do it? So he was on our
show annually for each year, and then Dan about four
(03:47):
years ago. All of a sudden, you know, Governor Decaucus,
you can be talking about one subject and he'll just
ammiliately have a completely separate train of thought. We're talking
about the Red Sox and how they stink at that moment,
and he says, Scott, I can't understand how anyone can
be anything but honest. I was brought up to believe
that honesty wasn't a choice, it was the way you
(04:08):
lived your life. You tell the truth. This is non negotiable.
You do what's right. It's not that hard. I've never
understood lying. And Dan, all of a sudden, it just
this light just came above my head and I'd go, Wow,
there's something here. There's something greater than just the thirteen
pages in the Wikipedia of Governor Micha Michael Decaccus. So
(04:32):
next week I spoke to him. I said, can I
write a book with you? And he said I'd love to,
but I don't want it to be all about me,
So I said, okay, I'll make it about me too.
So it's his words, it's my words the end. And
the response has been incredible and it's been out a
few weeks and couldn't be happier with it.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, it's an easy read. It runs about trying to
just look at the end here about one hundred and
fifty pages or so. There's some pictures, and it does
touch upon his life and I want to go through
it because he's a guy who came very close to
(05:16):
becoming President of the United States in nineteen eighty eight.
I will tell you that I was signed to cover
George Bush on election night in Houston, Texas, and I
was down there a few days in advance, and there
was no question that Texas was going to go for
George Bush. The family deep roots in Texas. Mike Decaccus
(05:36):
was not a threat to win Texas, although his running
mate was Lloyd Benson, the Senator from Texas. And I
remember talking to Lee Atwater the night before. Atwater was
sort of perceived to be George Bush's henchman. He was
the guy that played rough politically, and I remember having
(05:58):
a conversation with Water that night, and the polls suggested
that Bush was the favorite to win the next day.
But there were about ten states that were in play.
Many of the states were sort of Midwestern states, some
of which went in subsequent elections either to Bill Clinton
or to President Barack Obama. And if all of those
(06:20):
states had fallen the right way, you know, Docacas carried
the states that you would expect Maryland, Massachusetts, most of
the New England states, New York, California, Washington, and Bush
cleaned up down south in the Plain States and also
in the Midwest, and a lot of those states, and
I don't have the number in front of me, but
states like Iowa and Minnesota, which eventually became, you know,
(06:43):
fairly democratic states. They went to Bush. But Atwater was
not comfortable. He did not sleep well the night before,
although again Bush did win. And I remember Governor Ducaccas
was doing this like forty eight or sixty hour marathon.
He was just flying in a plane, you know, sleeping, catnapping.
(07:06):
He was, you know, sprinting to the end and hitting
as many airports as he could with rallies. And I
thought at the time, hey, this thing might be closer
than people imagined. And it was closer than people imagined.
And I hope you can take some consolation in that.
(07:27):
Have you talked to him about you must, I know
in the book you talked about the election of eighty eight.
I mean, there aren't too many people, As you mentioned
in the book, there's only five living Americans who were
this party standard bearers who were not elected president. Al
Gore is still alive. Hillary Clinton was the nominee who lost.
(07:52):
Mitt Romney is in that very special category. John Kerry
and Mike Twocaucus.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, and he's the oldest one. Absolutely, it's like the
time for us to all have breakfast. It's ftgs, you know.
And yes, remarkable. He had a seventeen point lead for
people who don't remember or weren't born during that election,
had a seventeen point lead coming out of the convention.
So three things happen, and we talked about these three
(08:19):
things during the course of the book. That kind of
changed things. And he put it in order, the debate question,
the second debate in LA, the debate question concerning the
death penalty, the tank photo, and the Willie Horton at And.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I think I think Bush was very effective with the
Boston Harbor cleanup, right, which I think also heard of.
We're going to get to all of those, I promise,
but I got to take a commercial break. My guest
is Scott Kerman. He's written a book called The Duke
Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. You conducted these conversations,
(09:01):
was it over a.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Full year, of course of three plus years at his
kitchen table.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay, at his kitchen table on Perry Street in Brookline.
If you'd like to share a memory, ask a question
about Mike Tocaccus, who was still with us, lost his
the love of his life, Kitty Tucaccus a few weeks ago. Sadly,
but he's he's ninety two years old and still going
(09:31):
strong and as sharp as he ever was mentally. He's
maintained his his intellect long past the ages of Donald Trump,
Ronald Reagan, and Joe Biden. He could if he had
been elected, he could have handled the office. We'll take
a break, my guest, Scott Kerman. If you like to
(09:51):
ask a question, to join the conversation, you're welcome to
join us. And if you'd like to share a memory
six one seven ten thirty six months seven nine three
one ten thirty. I'd like to change it up every
once in a while here on Night Side. I know
we had a very hot last hour dealing with Dave
Paleologus and Poles polling today, but these hours are important
(10:15):
to me as well I hope they are to you.
Feel free to join the conversation. If you have a
memory of reflection, probably most of you at some point
have met Mike Dukakis. Feel free to share any of
those stories as well, we'll be back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
My guest to Scott Kerman. He's just written a book,
The Duke Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. It
was a little bit of a sense of Tuesdays with
Maury in here, Mitch Album's very successful book of several
years ago. Explain to us just the setting every week
that you would sit with him. Explain to us, paint
(11:00):
the picture of the location of the conversations that were
in his kitchen on Perry Street and Brookline, if I'm
not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, in this kitchen, just sitting there with him and I.
You know, Kitty would come down. Kitty was ailing from
the whole period of time that I was there. Kitty
was ailing. So she would come down though in her bathrobe,
and we would talk together and have lots of laughs,
and then she'd go back upstairs. But it really was
(11:28):
just him and I, not really anyone else, no distractions,
and just of course we have a great friendship. But
as you see the book, as it goes on, the
friendship gets closer and closer, and then he opens up
more and more with me. So initially, Dan some of
the stuff he would say off the record because you
just used to talking to people like Dan Ray and
(11:49):
off the record on the record. But then after about
a few months everything was on the record, and to
be honest with you, he lets fly and a lot
of people. And when Michael Decocas doesn't like you, he
does he can't say your name, He calls you that
there there was three that there was that guy and
(12:10):
you can, I guess, I'm pretty easy who that guy is.
They had a coccadoonal dog and he didn't like him,
so it was that dog. And then the.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Third was how did a politician not like his dog?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
He didn't like this dog?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
That was his dog that you're talking about, right, No.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It was Kitty's dog. It was Kitty's dog.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well okay, but come on, it was the dog living
in the house with him and with Kitty. I know,
first of all, politicians have to love dogs. So that's okay,
I'll give him a pass on that. Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
What the dog when they gave the dog away? And
he said he didn't mourn the loss of the dog.
So it was.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
A dog. But that's okay, go ahead, Scott.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Well ninety years old. Yeah, it was a little more
difficult than normal. But and of course he didn't like
Charlie Baker because of the way he handled the tea.
And you could be talking.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
About heated gloves and he would mention something about Charlie
Baker and the tea. So it was kind of that
openness that that that happened during the course of this
book that I think people are appreciating.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
No, No, I totally get that. Who who is the
He didn't like the dog and he didn't like Charlie Baker.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That guy, which of course is Trump. Yeah, I mean,
you know Trump. He talks to Trump. Yet I mean yet,
it's funny.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's funny. I got to know Mike Docaccas pretty well.
I would have assumed that Mike doucaccas, Harvard Law school
guy Swathmore, probably would have seen in Charlie Baker some
things that he admired. That's kind of surprises me, because
Charlie Baker was not a Trump guy. I can see
(13:59):
Mike not liking Trump. I know that there were other
Republicans who we talked about who he did not like, Okay,
but I could see him actually bonding with Baker over
Baker's independence within you know, the Republican Party. But that's fine, so.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You can't pay anything. Look, he was it was all
about the tea when it came to Charlie Baker. He
never said anything about him personally or any other issue.
It's his beloved tea. And you know he wants to
connect North and the South station worse than any human
being of his planet. But it was the way he
handled the tea was with how that came out in
(14:44):
this book.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So let me ask you that I'm going to ask
a couple of questions that may or may not be
in the book, So bear with me. He's the what
he runs for president in nineteen eighty eight, He's more
than the governor of Massachusetts. He's more than the Democratic
nominee for president. He at that point becomes the titular
leader of the Democratic Party nationally. That's traditionally what happens,
(15:08):
particularly when you're the non incumbent party. Give us his thoughts,
if you will, on some of the people who came
after him. Bill Clinton spoke at the convention that Mike
Dukaccus was nominated at in Atlanta in nineteen eighty eight
and Clinton gave one of the longest, most boring speeches
(15:33):
in the history of any national political convention. I don't
think that Mike Dukaccus, probably down deep, would have liked
a Bill Clinton. I could be wrong, but I'd love
to know.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
You know, no, well, he liked him.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
They were great friends. Yeah, they were great friends. It's interesting.
First of all, he beats the Coccus beat some heavyweights
for the Democratic nomination, Joe Biden or Jesse Jackson, dip
Dick Geppart, and Gary Hart and Paul Simon from Illinois.
So he beats heavyweights, the guys who ended up, of course,
(16:11):
one being president, one being vice president, and almost president.
So that in itself is an incredible accomplishment. So I
asked him, so, you're absolutely what you said is correct.
In so Clinton is the keynote speaker in eighty eight,
do you have any conversation with Clinton about being your
running mate? And he says no, I never considered it.
(16:34):
So I thought, wow, that's kind of strange because all
of a sudden, four years later, this guy's going to
be president of the United States, but yet he wasn't
even he didn't even get an interview.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
But to this, remember this. Their careers were very parallel
in some regard. Obviously, Clinton's a little younger most I mean,
you know, yeah, he's he's about twelve years younger or so,
maybe fourteen years younger than Docuccus. But they're both governors,
(17:04):
and they're both governors who tasted the sting of defeat.
Clinton was beaten in nineteen eighty. Ducaccus was beaten by
Ed King in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The reason she's never got over just so you know,
he's never got over there.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely, it was his own party that turned him away.
For Ed King, I thought he might have looked at
Clinton a little differently. Bill Clinton was the antithesis of
Mike Ducaccus in the sense that Bill Clinton worked with
the Republicans once he knew that he had problems politically,
(17:44):
he worked with Newt Gingrich Okay. Also on a personal life,
Bill Clinton's personal behavior in the White House, none of
that ever would have happened if Mike Ducaccus had been
President of the United States. He was a husband of
Kitty Ducaccas, first, last, and always. He was a devoted
husband of devoted dad. And I'm surprised that he although
(18:09):
he might have admired Clinton's success in ninety two and
the fact that he was a Democrat, and maybe Ducaccus
thinks that that he was kind of the he was
the pathfinder, if you will, for Bill Clinton. Here you
had a governor from from the south Arkansas that was
(18:29):
able to break through and get elected and beat the
same guy that he lost to. I can understand where
he might admire that, but I just don't understand the
sort of the behavior of Clinton. I mean, Clinton was
kind of a wild man. Mike Ducaccus was not a wild.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Man, and complete opposite. Yeah, but they both were part
of the National Governors Association, to which you know Mike
Dicacus led, so they were they worked together and they
were very friendly. So they did have a good relationship.
And yes, he has great respect for Clinton, of the
moral side, not so much of course.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
What about what did what did he think of I
could see that he would admire then Senator Obama, young
senator from Illinois, who wild the convention here in Boston
in two thousand and four. Did what did Docaccus think
of Hillary Clinton? I think he would have liked Hillary
(19:30):
Clinton more than he liked her husband, because she held
that relationship together. And she also was not a Democrat
who was willing to compromise her positions. She's much more
similar to Ducaccus philosophically than he was to her husband
(19:54):
explained that once a bit.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Did he Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, you nailed it, Dan, Absolutely,
they both would have been I mean working presidents, you know.
And and he had great respects for Hillary. But I
did have, you know, to mention this in the book.
I said, well, did Hillary reach out to you when
she was running for president? And he said, no, she
did not. And I said, were you disappointed by that?
(20:18):
He said, you know, and and the caucuses such classy
and respectful way. It would have been nice to have
received a call from her. And you know, so there
are certain parts and you know, when you talk about
it about being the leader of the.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Book, Mike Mike Docaucus, and I hope he's not listening
to Hillary Clinton. He was yesterday's news.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Well, but you know he said this, Well, where if
I was very interesting Dan, and you just you've had
brought that you had just brought this up. I said,
were you the leader of the party the day after
the election, after the presidential election, were you still the
leader of the party. And he said, no, that's it.
I lost. No one cares you move on. And I
(21:03):
thought that was very interesting. And you know we're seeing
that in the same case with Kamala Harris. You know,
she's not the leader of the party anymore. You know,
I don't know who is.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But Roney mid Romney lost. He wasn't the leader of
the party. Al Gore lost, John Carry lost, John Kerry
wasn't the leader of the party. He won. Onto different
and other things. Okay, we got to take a break.
We're at the newscast. I want to talk about the
Willie Brown case, the Willy Horton case, excuse me, the
(21:33):
Willie Horton case, which I think heard him. You're familiar
with that case, of course, the question about capital punishment,
his day in the tank. This is a guy who
actually served in the military on the front lines in Korea,
not in a war time, but in a war zone,
and yet he was pillared, battered from pillar to post
(21:56):
for the ride in the tank. So we got a
bunch of things to talk about. I'm hoping my audience
might have some interest in this topic as well. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten,
thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. Scott
sent me this book, which I have read most of. Uh.
It's a great read for those of us who are
(22:17):
political junkies and history buffs. We will be back with
my guest, Scott Kerman, who himself has a very interesting career,
both as a humor columnist at the Eagle Tribune newspaper,
but as someone who met Mike Ducaccus at the age
of eleven on when Mikedecaccus was a governor back in
(22:38):
nineteen seventy seven, so he's known him a long time.
I spent a lot of time with Governor Decacus. Always
enjoyed my time with him. Always accessible, always very honest,
not someone who is a games player at all, and
that probably might have hurt him, to be honest with you.
We'll be back on Nightside talking uh the presidential candidacy
(22:59):
and the career of Michael Stanley Ducaucus. Back on Nightside
right after this. Light these lines up, folks. I'm disappointed
that no one wants to join this conversation. I love
this topic. I hope some of you do as well.
We're back after this.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It's Night Side with Dan ray On.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Boston's News radio, where this is Scott Scott Kerman. He's
written a book called The Duke Weekly Conversations with the
Last Honest Politician. I think it's a great title. These
these conversations were in Governor Ducaucus's kitchen on Perry Street,
in small front lawn. I remember the week that he
(23:41):
was nominated and we were trying to figure out who's
going to pick his vice president. I was over on
Perry Street and he's out there mowing his lawn with
a hand held lawnmower, not a gas powered lawnmower, one
of the old lawnmowers, all push law and more. Okay,
let's talk about that question that was asked of him
(24:07):
back in nineteen eighty eight about if his wife was
a really nasty question by Bernard Shaw. This was the
question at a presidential debate, if your wife was raped
and murdered, would you still oppose the death penalty?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
That was essentially a question, right, Yeah, that's exactly what
it was.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Which was what he believed. But characteristically he doesn't regret
the honest answer.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Right, he regrets it. I mean, you've got the answering it.
First of all, Kitty was in the front row when
he said, when Shaw asked, if Katy Decarcus is raped
and murdered, would you favor and a real, irrevocable death
penalty for her killer? First question out of the gate, and
he goes no, And I think, you know I opposed
(24:55):
the death penalty during all my life. That was Look,
he was in a difficult situation, Dan. If he answers
the question straight up like he did, he's going to
look insensitive to his wife's imaginary plight, right if he
reversed his course and says, oh, you know, if you're
talking about my wife, of course, you know I believe
(25:17):
in the death penalty, you know. But so he was
in a difficult situation. I had a problem. I think
I had a problem with the question more than he does.
And I just thought, you know, it was improper the
way he worded it. And they had practiced the debate
question but the death penalty, but they should didn't practice
that type of question. And he regrets it. But as
(25:40):
you see, as the book goes on, he comes to
grips with that the answer was the improper answer, and
then I don't want to, you know, ruin it for you.
But he answers the question the way he thinks he
should have answered it, so he kind.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Of that part of the book. I'll look full it
to it. I think it was one of those that
was the question struck me as the uh, when did
you stop beating your wife question? It's like, if you
accept the premise of the question, no matter how you
answer that question, it's it's it's an improper question in
(26:19):
my opinion, although as a journalist it was it was
an interesting question. I think there's some suspicion that that
question might have been planted by the Bushmen.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
I have a suspicion absolutely it had let waters uh
fingerprints all over not show didn't ask any questions to H. W.
Bush about Barbara bus Bush's imaginary uh situation where she's uh,
you know, criminalized, so victimiz.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It's a question that I think was just way out
of bouts. Let's get to some phone calls here as well,
and we'll continue to talk about some of the sillient
points of the book. Let's go to kenon Waltham, Ken
next on Nice I. First, this are with Scott Kerman.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Go right ahead, Hi, Dan, Scott.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
You know one thing about the Lost nineteen eighty eight campaign,
I thought generated one of the funniest lines I ever heard.
In nineteen ninety two, when Paul Fungus announced his run
for the presidency, he said I'm not running because I'm
a Greek Liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. I thought it was
a great line.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I did.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Massachusetts politicians haven't had a lot of success, whether they're
Republicans or Democrats. Mitt Romney, Ted Kennedy, Mike Ducacas, Paul
Saugust Berry.
Speaker 7 (27:41):
We'll get to the finals, but they can't bring home
the championship.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:46):
I didn't meet Michael Decaccas once, and if we have time,
I can tell you about that. But what I really
wanted to ask either one of you is one thing
I never understood in nineteen eighty eight is what the
problem was that Mike Ducaccus had with Evelyn Murphy and
his lieutenant governor. And I really thought the state suffered
(28:08):
with Ducaccus, you know, campaigning for president and not giving
the reins up, at least in an acting sense to
Evelyn Murphy.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I think he had a problem. We'll see what Scott says.
I don't think Governor Ducaccus had a problem with it.
But I think Governor Ducaccus wanted to prove and I
think he was capable of continuing to discharge his obligations
as governor while a candidate for the White House. I
think that he would have perceived that as an acknowledgment
(28:40):
and an admission that he was not everything that he
believed he was.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
Go ahead, Scott, Yeah, again, you know, I didn't mention
that in the book, But I don't think he was
a big fan of hers, and I don't think that
he completely trusted her when he was outside the state
what she might do.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Again, this is just a conversations I've had with him.
So and there were times where they did not include
her in meetings. So you figured that out. So yeah,
and then that might have hurt him as far as
the presidential election, where he stayed in the state and
(29:20):
was working in the state when he should have been,
you know, campaigning across the country. And I think there
may be an it may have been. Of course, we're
talking about a long period of time and Evelyn Murphy.
That may have been because of her.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I don't know. I covered it at the time. I
didn't pick up any distrust. Ken. It's interesting. You're a
pretty good observer. I didn't realize that there was any distrust.
I felt that Murphy and Ducacus were pretty close philosophically.
I mean, I can see where I don't know, you know,
he was stung by the ed King defeat. I don't
(29:57):
think Murphy was an ed King democrat. To the best
of my knowledge, I thought she was a micrococcus democrat.
Did I misperceive that? Ken?
Speaker 7 (30:06):
Uh? No, I don't think you did, but they definitely.
My recollection is that he kind of, like what Scott said,
wouldn't invite her to meetings. There was definitely distance between
them for whatever the reason was, and it didn't it
didn't seem to be political ideology, you know, or something.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Okay, well, good enough, great question, Ken, you stumped us.
Let's keep rolling here, go to thanks again.
Speaker 7 (30:33):
I thought she gave a great enter actually, that he
wouldn't want to give up the reins and it might
hurt his presidency, So you think.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
That was it. I think that he prided himself on that.
You know, he was in great shape physically. I remember
talking to him. He used to be a runner and
he stopped running, and I was a runner at the time,
believe it or not. And he cautioned me. We would
talk personally and it'd say, you know, stop running, just
walk or whatever. Now, as it turns out, I do
an elliptical, and whenever you tell me get an olympical,
(31:01):
I think of Mike Tucaucus because you know, you don't
have the impact of running. But I was. I was
out running, you know, three four five miles every day
back in the time. And he he was a he
was a power walker at that point, and he was
only he was in his mid fifties in eighty eight.
(31:24):
He was a power walker and he was damn proud.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Remember he picks up litter. He picks up litter while
he's walking.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oh yeah, no waste, no waste of effort there. Hey, Ken,
thank you much. You got to keep running here because
they got a break coming up. Okay, thanks Bell, appreciate
the call.
Speaker 7 (31:39):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thank you, Ken, take a break, coming right back on
night Side. Ken is a regular listener and a contributor
to night Side with Scott Kermin The Duke Weekly Conversations
with the Last Honest Politician. I think that's an accurate title.
All of a sudden, our phone lines are blown up here,
So we got a bunch of calls to try to
get to everyone. I'm going to try to be get
(32:00):
to everyone in everyone in here, stay with us. Back
on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w BZ,
Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Okay, back to the phones we go. We're going to
try to get everybody in. My guest is Scott Kerman.
He's written a book called The Duke, That being Michael Ducaccus,
former Governor of Massachusetts nineteen eighty eight presidential nominee the
Democratic Party. Weekly Conversations with the Last Honest Politician. Eileen.
We're getting a little tight on time, but thank you
for calling in. You were next on Nightside. Go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Well, I met Mike Ducaccus when we lived in Brookline
and it was nineteen sixty two. I don't know when
he was running. Yeah, our first baby had just been born,
and I remember he climbed up to the third floor
(32:56):
of our apartment in Brookline and had a very very
interesting discussion with my husband, who was a refugee from
East Germany and at that time an instructor at Harvard.
But I just remember that visit and I was dealing
(33:17):
with a slightly fretful baby that I remember the.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Well, that was when he was he was running for
state representative, I assume.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Correct, exactly. Yeah, yeah, he was in that between sixty
two and seventy. He was in the outse of rep.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah. Wow, that's a great memory. That's you never would
have thought that that guy that had walked up to
the two flights of stairs so the third floor would
be the Democratic presidential nominee. What was you know? Those
that twenty six years later?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Yeah, yeah, well it was a it was a very
interesting He was so interested in my husband's experiences growing
up in East Germany, and I thought that was uh,
that was impressive.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Real well, that that's Mike Ducaccus. Thanks, thanks, I Leen
and got to keep rolling here. By the way, I
think it's important to mention that I know Ducaccas was.
Does he regret the the photograph in the tank? Be
quick for me on this one, Scott.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
He does, but he doesn't really understand all, you know,
the all the attention it's gotten over the years, So
he does, yes, absolutely regrets it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well, you have a great picture in the in the
book of him standing on a tank. Uh, in in Korea,
South Korea, when he was, you know, on close, if
not in close to the d m Z as an
active duty US Army member of the US Army. So
this was a guy. Now he's also running against a
(34:49):
guy who had his plane shot down and was pulled
out of the drink. And they have to have that videotape.
So even though Mike Ducaccus serves his time on the
front lines in Korea, it's tough to beat, you know,
George Bush's picture of him being pulled onto that boat
out of the water.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
That's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Roland. You're going to go to Neil in Watertown. Neil,
You're next on Nightsager, right ahead.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
I have two questions, and since we're short on time,
maybe you could just say yes or no. Regarding my memory,
I remember that he wouldn't say I'm a liberal. He
just he was afraid maybe and I'm maybe afraid to
say politically. And then the last week he said, yes,
I'm a liberal in the sense of Harry Truman, and
(35:38):
he surged a little bit because of that. And just
I remember at the time liberal all of a sudden
became a dirty ward or something that this.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Was during the Reagan presidency that he was running and
Ronald Reagan was a very popular president. I don't ever
remember him, but I think Neil's recollection might be better.
I don't remember him refusing to identify as a liberal.
I don't think that would be the sort of game
he would play. Scott Well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
I mean mentioned that. He's when I asked him, who
is he running against Reagan? Or Bush said I was
running against Reagan. So I thought it was very interesting. Yeah.
But yeah, I mean he's never shied away from being liberal. No,
absolutely not. I mean you know, when when you think
Michael Decacus, you think of the liberal.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (36:24):
But did let Water apologized what he did to the caucus?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Did I mentioned that? Yeah? I mentioned that he got
sick and then on his literally on his death that
he called up Governor Dacacus and he apologized.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
What did he apologize for.
Speaker 8 (36:43):
The dirty tricks?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Just Willie Orton basically that, yeah, yeah, absolutely, just all
of that, you know, just the way things went played out.
And again, the Caucus has no ill feeling toward at Water.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
What does that make true? And that makes me respect Adwater?
I was unaware of that. That makes me respect Adwater
a little bit, but because back in those days, I mean,
dirty tricks were were part of the business. I remember
when Nixon was running, I think it was in sixty eight.
His campaign slogan was Nixon's the One. And there was
(37:19):
a guy named Dick Tuck who was the ultimate dirty trickster.
He got about fifty pregnant women, most of whom, if
not all, were black, to parade around the convention Center
in Miami. They were all like seven, eight, nine months
pregnant with Nixon's the one sides.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yes, thanks very all right, thanks.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Thanks Neil, appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Good good night.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I got to get two more in here for you
at least.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Okay, I just asked the governor if the Atwater had been,
you know, running your campaign, and then he finished my sentence,
what I have won? He said, Probably.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I would have expected for him to say I wouldn't
want I wouldn't have wanted him to be running. But
that's okay, Jackie Dorchester, Jack, next time you're in, Jack,
you're you're on with my guest, Scott K. Kerman.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Go ahead, Jack, Okay.
Speaker 9 (38:11):
Well, first off, I'm hoping you'll get tacked to the
Perkins School. So you can put this on on boys.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, they can pull it down. They just have to
go to Nightside and demand and that's available for everyone,
and anyone at the Perkins School that's interested can pull
it down. Sometime tomorrow we.
Speaker 9 (38:31):
Put it on. Putting on talking books, you know that's
up to you. I knew Mike the Cactus from when
he ran uh for Little Tetor governor under Kevin White,
which led to us running for governor and yep four
and that worked on all his campaigns.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Well, good, appreciate it. Appreciate you taking the time to call.
Do you have a question for Scott Jack? We only
have about a in it left.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Yeah. Well, like I said, I'm just hoping it would say, uh.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Okay, we got that, we got that noted, and may
I hope you can turn this into a talking book
I think is what Jack is suggesting. Thanks to Thank
you very much, Jack, appreciate it. I'm gonna get David
from Jamaica plane in. David, I can give you like
twenty seconds, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I was just curious if Ducacas passed.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That rubicon of you called him honest.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I believe he was just more truthful. Is there a
distinction between the two.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I think that your answer go ahead, Okay, I think
I think.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Yeah, I think both fine. And you know it's funny,
he said. You know, Scott, I'm not the last honest politician.
I said. It's a metaphor, but it feels like it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Okay. I think we're done here. We're almost out of time,
right okay, Uh, Scott. People can get this book The
Duke on Amazon. Thank you so much. I got to run.
We're out of time. Thank you very much. We ran
it up to the last minute. All dogs, all cats,
all pets go to heaven. That's why Pal Charlie Rails,
who passed fifteen years ago in Fiby. That's why your
(40:12):
pets are a past. They love you and you love them.
You'll see them again, see again tomorrow. Night everyone, Thanks
Gott Kerman. The Duke on Amazon dot com. Good night everyone,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.