September 15, 2025 • 39 mins
Daryl Davis is a civil rights activist and author who has devoted his life to bridging the gap between racial divide by seeking out the roots of racism. In doing so, Daryl has attended countless Ku Klux Klan rallies, come face-to-face with Klansmen and Klanswomen and as a result successfully been the impetus for over 200 Klan members to leave their hatred behind and hang up their robe. Daryl joined us on NightSide to share his fascinating and inspiring life's work of turning hatred, racism and bias into friendship and admiration. He literally has a closet full of robes and hoods of KKK members who he helped reverse course away from racism and a life of hatred! You don’t want to miss this hour of radio!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nights with Dan Rays.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Even better news for the Red Sox.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Dan, I'd like to mention that the Red Sox obviously
often they open that series with the A's from somewhere
in California. The Yankees losing to the Minnesota Twins tonight
seven nothing at the eighth inning, which is good news
for the Red Sox.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Absolutely at a lot of scoreboard watching this time of year.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, by by not by not playing, they'll pick up
some ground. Or the Yankees, and maybe even on Toronto.
I'm not sure if Toronto's playing tonight the eleventh. Oh well,
they may book up a full game on Toronto. My goodness.
But the Yankees, our boy, the Yankees got lit up tonight.
Seven nothing nothing offensively, let me tell you gonna get interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thanks Dan.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
We have a gentleman with us tonight who was a
guest during our eight o'clock hour a little over a
week ago. If I'm not mistaken, his name is Daryl Day,
and he is called the Clean Whisperer. I don't know, Daryl,
if you like that name or not, but I think
somehow it got hung on you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
How are you, sir, I'm.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Doing fine, Dan, Thank you for having me really appreciate it. Yeah,
the name is fine and in fact, just the name
of my brand new book.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh well that kind of works then, doesn't Well, indeed,
cly tell people how how they can get a copy
of that book. So, just to make it clear for
anybody who is unfamiliar with our show and didn't have
wasn't listening the night we had you on, you having
to be black African American, and I'm not sure how
(01:39):
you like to identify yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Give me what phrase you're most comfortable with?
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Black is fine?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Black? Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And at a point in time, you, as a.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Black man, decided, Hm, I'd like to know what this
Ku Klux Klan thing is all about, and really what
makes these folks tick? Tell us when this was and
what prompted you to attend clan rallies and basically try
(02:10):
to reach out and I don't want to say make
friends with them, but to better understand the source of
their discontent.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Would that be way to describe it as gently as possible?
Speaker 5 (02:23):
I was Yeah, when I was age ten, I was
the only black Cuff scout in a parade. In fact,
right there in the Boston area, remember that, Yeah, oh yeah,
we had a march from lessons in the Concorde.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
It was nineteen sixty eight, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Nineteen sixty eight, right, And I first lived in Boston
right there in Roxbury. I just come back from overseas.
My dad was US embassy and we'd just come back home.
And then the school systems were so bad in Roxbury
that almost after three weeks, we moved out to Belmont
and I lived there for a year. But we had
(03:03):
a parade, and I was the only black stoff participating,
and somewhere along the parade route, I was getting pelted
with bottles and sort of popkins and small debris in
the street, just by a very small group of people
and mixed in with the larger crowd. I said, I
was the only black participant. The crowd was all white,
(03:24):
and I didn't know what was happening. And I thought,
you know, oh, these people over here on the sidewalk
must not like the Scouts. And then when my Scout
leaders came running over to me and covered me with
their own bodies and quickly escorted me out of the danger,
I'm realizing that no other Scout is giving the special protection.
So now I'm wondering, you know, what on earth did
(03:44):
I do to cause these people to attack me like this?
And I kept asking my scout leaders, and all they
would do is kind of shush me and rush me along,
tell me to keep on moving, keep on moving, everything
will be fine. So I kept moving and fortunately the perpetrators,
you know, did not follow us. And when I got home,
I still didn't have an answer. But my mom and
(04:04):
dad were at home when I arrived, and they were
cleaning me up and putting band aids on me and
asked me, how did you fall down and get all
scraped up? I explained to them, you know, I didn't
fall down to them exactly what had happened. And for
the first time in my life, Dan, at the age
of ten, my parents explained to me what racism was,
believe it or not. I had never even heard the word, okay, racism,
(04:26):
because I was around people from all over the world.
You know. My parents were US diplomats, so I went
to school with other diplomatic kids from other embassies. So
I saw a lot of diversity, you know, at an
early age, and racism did not exist in our sere.
And so when my parents were telling me this. I
didn't believe them.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And you're a ten year old little boy, Yeah, you
was a flag bearers.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You were a flag.
Speaker 6 (04:50):
Bearer that in that parade that is direct.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Belmont, Massachusetts in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
Okay, yeah, we were marching from right next door, from
less than in the I lived in Belmont. Yeah, And
so you know, when I finally realized that my parents
were telling me the truth, I formed a question in
my mind, which was, how can you hate me when
you don't even know me? And I want and so
all my life up there looking for the answer to
that question. So as I got older, you know, and
(05:18):
I learned about the Two Clucks plan. Because nobody had
been able to answer that question for me, I bought
books on black supremacy, white supremacy, the clan, the neo Nazis,
you name it, and the books all talked about it,
if they didn't answer the question. And when I would
ask people, how can people be like that? You know,
the answer was, oh, Darryl, you know some people are
just like that. That's just the way it is. Yeah,
(05:38):
that's not an answer. So I figured, well, who's better
to ask that question of than someone who would go
so far as to join an organization that literally practices
hating people who don't look like them or who don't,
you know, believe as they believe. So that's when I
decided I wanted to seek out, you know, clan members
and interview that.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So what what age were you when you you started
this journey into the Ku Klux Klan.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
Okay, that would be nineteen ninety Well, actually, I'm sorry,
it was actually earlier than that. It was like nineteen
eighty three, and then I started writing the book in
nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Okay, So you're you're an adult in nineteen eighty three.
I'm trying to do.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Years out of college. Yeah, hi, I graduated nineteen eighty okay.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
And so what strategy you did you develop? I mean
I kind of imagine that you were going to just
show up. Maybe you did.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Actually, yeah, there are a few times when I did.
I had my secretary it called these people. My secretary
was white. He's passed on now, that particular secretary. And
because I would get the numbers for the people that
I want to interview, I figured i'd go around the country.
I was going to start. I live in Maryland right now,
I'd go I start in Maryland, interview the clan leader
(06:57):
in Maryland, and then go up north, go down south,
go to the midwat go to the west, interview other
plan leaders and other members, and write and write this book,
and I will become the first.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I mean, I can't believe that these guys had their
number listed. Did they have like an office a ku
klux klan on this is Maryland in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
I realized that, yeah, well, well what happens is this?
You know back then? You know, well even today. You know,
if you want to have a rally on public property,
right you have to have a permit. So you go
to city hall, you fill out an application, state you
know where you want to what piece of property you
want to occupy, public park, up the street, corner, you
(07:36):
know whatever, And you fill out the application and you
have your name and number there and that's public record.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Rally.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I've got the record and call the number.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Okay, We're going to pause here because the story of
your meeting and the moment when you met each other
is fascinating and I want to give it an opportunity
for you to tell it in an uninterrupted fashion. My
guest is Darryl Davis. Darryl has a book called The
Klan Whisper. He happens to be black, and he reached
(08:10):
out to members and leadership of the Ku Klux Klan
in Maryland and in other states, and he's been quite
successful at it, ironically, and we will get his story,
which I think is an amazing story of courage, uh
and conviction. And if you'd like to talk to Daryl
and ask a question, you are more than one going
to join the conversation. Or if you'd like to give him
(08:32):
a tip off your hat and say, hey, you you
approached a problem and where do you hear some of
the successes that he has had six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty
Coming right back on night Side.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
With Darryl Davis, The Clan Whisper. Back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This, You're on night Side with Dan Ray on BZ
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
My his is Darryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
His book The Clean Whisper is available, but part of
the story is he reaches out to the head of
the Ku Klux Klan in the state of Maryland. What
year we talking here, Darryl, Just to put it in
some context.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Mid eighties.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
That's when I first started, you know, researching them and
things like that. I actually reached out to him in
nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Okay, fine, So now it's nineteen ninety, that's thirty five
years ago. Your secretary set up a meeting a kind
of on neutral ground, I guess, in a hotel room.
And it was an interesting opportunity for him to walk
in the room and see you.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I assume he knew you were black.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
No, he did not know I was black, because I'd
gotten his number from someone who promised, who made me
promise not to tell the leader where I got his
personal information and this and this guy gave me a warning.
He said, Daryl, do not fool with him. He will
kill you.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
And so I'm like, well, that's the reason why I
need to see him. You know, I need to find
why would he kill me just because I'm black? Come on,
and I need I need to find out more about this.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
He walks in the room with a bodyguard. Who's who's
who's packing heat?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Yes? Yeah, And of course, well the bodyguard walked in first,
and he didn't see me because you had to turn
a corner once you come into the motel door, and
then you see who's in the room. So as soon
as the bodyguard saw me, he like froze in his
traps because you know, he was expecting a white guy
(10:41):
and uh. And the leader was behind the bodyguard, but
on the other side of the corner, so he didn't
realize that his his bodyguard had stopped short. And so
the leader came from around the corner and slammed right
into the guy's back and knocked the guy forward. And
so now they're stumbling around trying to regain their balance,
and I'm just sitting there looking at them, and I
(11:02):
could read their faces. You know, it was a lot
of apprehension, and I just I could see they were thinking,
wait a minute, you know, did the deskclort give us
the wrong room number? Is this an ambush? And what's
going on here? Exactly? So I stood up and I
displayed both my palms to show I had nothing in
my hands, and I walked forward and I said, Hi,
(11:22):
I'm Darryl Davis. And the leader shook my hand, and
so you know that was cool. Yeah, the bodyguard shook
my hand and I said, please come on in, come
on in, and have a seat, and the leader sat
down and the bodyguard stood to his right. And so
the leader asked me for some ID. I provided the ID,
(11:42):
and then I sat down and we started, you know,
this conversation. I had a bag beside my chair, a
black canvas bag in which I had you know, a
blank you know, tapes to record, and I had a
copy of the Bible, because the Plan claims to be
a Christian organization. And they said that the Bible itself
preaches racial separation. So I've never seen that in the Bible.
(12:05):
So i want, you know, say, hey, you know, show
me exactly where Chapter and Versus says blacks and whites
must be separate. So I'm all prepared. So every time
he made a biblical reference or or I needed a
fresh tape, I'd reached down into the bag. Well, when
I reached down, the bodyguard would reach up and rest
his hand on the butt of the gun. And you know,
(12:27):
but I got it. You know, he's doing his job.
His job is to protect his boss, and I'm the enemy.
I'm the black guy, and he doesn't know what's in
my bag. So I fully understood that.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You know, I would have been tempting at some point
to say, hey, you want to examine the bag. I'm
going to go in here with you. But that's need
there and there, and then you have you had a
little incident which well, he literally broke the ice, if
I recall exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
So, the bodyguard had relapsed. He figured there was nothing,
you know of day in the bag, no kind of threat.
He relaxed, and I was going in and out of
the bag and he didn't move. Well. A little over
an hour into the conversation, there was a very short,
fast noise that came out of nowhere, and we all
jumped and I flew out of my chair. I'm gett
(13:16):
ready to come across that table because I knew that
the plan leader had made the noise. I didn't know
what the noise was. And I keep hearing the other
guy's voice saying, Darryl, don't fool with him. He'll kill you,
and so I thought, oh, you know, he's getting ready
to do something, and so I jumped up, and I'm
going to come across the table and take the bodyguard
and the clan leader down to the ground and disarmed
(13:36):
the bodyguards because my job is to protect myself and
my secretary and so the bodyguard quickly went for his gun.
He didn't pull it out, but he rested his hand
on the butt of the gun again. And I'm standing
with my hands on the table, getting ready to come across,
and the plan leader and I are looking at each
other right, I mean, less than a foot away I
to eye. Neither one of us said anything because our
(13:58):
eyes did the talking. My eyes were saying to him,
what did you just do? His eyes were saying to me,
what did you just do? And the bodyguard was looking
at both of us, like, what do either one of
y'all just do? Well? Mary, the secretary, she's sitting on
top of the dresser, and she had realized what had happened,
and she explained it to us, and it happened again,
and we all began laughing. There was an ice bucket
(14:21):
next to her, which Mary and I had set up earlier.
We'd gotten soda pop out of the vending machine and
filled the ice bucket with ice and put the soda
in there to get it cold so we could offer
these people a drink, a cold drink. And the ice
had begun melting and the cans of soda were shifting
down the ice and that that was all there was
to it.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You know, you had a lesson there because both of
you were apprehensive simultaneously exactly.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
But that proved that we both, you know, despite the
fact that we were on opposite spec ends of the
ideological spectrum, we both were human beings. We both felt
fear of the same time, we both felt release when
the fear was addressed, and we both began laughing at
the humor in the situation at how ignorant we both
were because we didn't understand something we accused each other
(15:13):
of doing.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
It.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Now was this.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I don't want to spoil the surprise ending here, okay,
because I want to walk people through this. So you
had a conversation with him at some point, I assume
you agreed to disagree that there was no meeting of
the bob.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Well, yeah, I mean I did not agree with with
with most most of what he was saying, but I
was there to interview him to find out why. I
wasn't there to change him. My only goal was not
to convert him, not to say you're wrong, give me
your robe or whatever else. I was here to find out,
how can you hate me? You don't even know me?
(15:54):
Just give me the answer to that question. We can
shake hands goodbye and never see each other again.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Met him subsequently, So how did that cop meeting?
Speaker 5 (16:03):
And he well, we ended shaking hands and saying let's
keep in touch. And I said, well, I got other
planned people to interview around the country, but I will definitely,
you know, give you a holler when well, when my
book is ready, let you know, and so form and
so on. So you know, I would call him periodically,
and if I was going to be in his county,
(16:23):
I said, hey, man, what are you doing. If he
said nothing, I said, come run this errand with me.
I gotta go drop off a CD for somebody, or
a music contract to somebody. I'm, you know, a musician
by trade. He said, okay, I'll meet you at the
parking ride. You know, he didn't want me to come
into his house, but he sold he meet me at
the parking ride and the bodyguard would be there. Bodyguard
was sit in my back seat and the leader was
(16:45):
sitting my front seat, and we'd ride around his county.
I'd drop off a music contract or a CD or whatever,
and then we stop and get lunch. Now I have
had lunch and breakfast or dinner or beverages with tens
of thousands of white people. He had never socialized with
a black person before. Yeah, he works with them on
the job because he has to draw a paycheck. But
(17:06):
you know, but when he clapped out at five.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
O'clock, Daryl, what was his his employment? I mean that
that's always surprising me. Me at these guys with their
big names, the Grand Kleagle of the Grand Wizard or
whatever they are, Right, what type of work did this
guy do?
Speaker 5 (17:22):
He did manual labor. I won't give it specifically. He
would lose he would lose a lot of a lot
of jobs because people found out that he worked there.
But you know, let's just say, you know, he has
to do with construction, So.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Not not a highly if he's doing manual labor. Not
a highly educated individual.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Uh in his case. Correct, But that but that is
not necessarily reflective of all clan people. Okay, a klansman
or clanswoman, or any white supremacists for that matter, is
not step stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. They
come from all different wall of life, from third grade
dropout all the way Dan to President of the United States, President.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Warren G.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Harding was born into the two plus plan in the
green room of the White House Harry Truman. President Truman
had joined the plan for a short time before he
became president. He didn't like it, he got out and
went on to become president. So you know, it goes
every educational level, every socio economic status, etc.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Fair enough, let me take a quick break for a
quick newscast. We got about three four minutes here. I
want to go to phone calls, and I also want
to you. I want you to amplify on your story
and with some of the other anecdotes of individuals that
you met. Also, you went to some clan rallies where
they were cross burnings, which had to make you feel
pretty uncomfortable, but you were I'm not going to say accepted,
(18:54):
but your presence was at least tolerated from what at
least I took from our last effort.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
We get back.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I want to get to a couple of phone calls
right off, and then I want to leave your story,
uh In. And I think it's fascinating that, uh that
what you've done here and people can forget that the
Ku Klux Klan may be a shadow of itself, you know,
when it was in its at its height after the
(19:21):
Civil War in the anti Bell himself. But at this
time there was still pretty active groups and may be
some still today, I don't know, but they certainly have
gone to ground. But these were groups when you were
doing these meetings, when they they had a bigger presence.
And uh and uh and and and I think a
(19:43):
larger I hope a larger membership.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I hope that's been diminished over time. Uh.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
And you actually have the proof of that, and we'll
get to that as well. We'll take a quick break.
My guest is Darryl Davis, the Clan Whisper. Get to
some couple of phone calls if you want to join
the conversation. Get on early six months in two, five,
four thirty or six one seven.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I think this is a fascinating story, a story of
great deal of courage, by the way, and my opinion
as well. Back on night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
It's Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
My guest is Darryl Davis. Happens to be a black gentleman.
He's written a book called The Klan Whisper. We're recounting
his efforts to reach out to members of the Ku
Klux Klan in the nineteen nineties and subsequently to find
out why why they hate him because he's simply black
(20:40):
and they obviously don't know him.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And Darryl's is just account of recount for us the
first meeting and had with the leader of the Marilyn
ku Klux Klan. Darryl, I want to work our callers
in as we tell the story. Let me go to
first Melissa in Oregon. Melissa, welcome back to Nightside.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
How are you?
Speaker 7 (20:59):
You're alway, Darryl Davis, Hi, Dan, Hi, Darryl, thanks for
sharing the story. Gone terrific. I wanted to ask you
if you've engaged with any former Negro league players. I
know a lot of them are no longer living, but
I know a lot of them dealt with the klu
Klux plan and other racism, and I was just wondering
(21:21):
if you ever had the experience to speak with them.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
And by the way, just by way of background, Darryl
Melissa is a historian. She actually has presented at the
Baseball Hall of Fame on several occasions. She has a
particular expertise in the Negro leagues and has spent a
lot of time interviewing some of these players in the
in recent relatively recent times.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Yes, Melissa, I did have the occasion to speak to
a few many many years ago before I got involved
in this. Unfortunately, so I didn't you know, get you know,
they're still on racism and the plan and things like that.
I was honored to meet some of those players who
broke around and open doors, you know for future players.
(22:09):
So I was blessed to have met some of them.
And as you said, a lot of them you know,
have gone now or or are no longer you know,
traveling and things like that.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
So if it's okay, I'd like to make two recommendations
we do your story so powerful. The first is I
contact the Negro Leagues Museum in Kansas City. They're fantastic.
Although I've not done I know a lot of people
involved with it, and you might find overlaps there with
(22:41):
your experiences. The second thing is SABER dot org s
a br dot org, which is the Society for American
Baseball Research, and they have a very powerful negro Leagues
committee and they would I just I'm hearing what you're
talking about, and I just feel like there's overlaps there.
Dan can give you my information, and I can connect
(23:03):
you with some people that are powerful researchers in this
space that there might be there might be some synchronicity there.
And I don't mean to, you know, I just when
I when I heard him, when I heard Dan say
tip of the cap, I think of Satchel Page. I thought,
you know what these players do?
Speaker 8 (23:24):
You know?
Speaker 7 (23:24):
People forget what Page went through, right, And I think
one of the things when I heard your story is,
you know, how can you hate someone you don't know?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Right?
Speaker 7 (23:34):
And so that's what's so powerful, right. And I think
what we learned from the Negro League players is they
were just baseball players that loved baseball right in many cases,
but people hated him because of their skin color, right.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Exactly, exactly, Yes, absolutely, you know, And Dan, please, you know,
please give them a list of my information as well.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
I'd be happy to share with you. Well, I'll let
you go. I know you have many more callers, but
your story is fascinating, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I know, I know I have your phone number, but
you're coming in on the line. Here is anonymous.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Leave your phone number with rob from me and I'll
make sure, you guys get in.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Touch, Okay, I promise you all right, all right?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Uh yeah, Melissa loves baseball and uh and she's a
great researcher. I mean, she's she's somebody who has has
met a lot of she she's like she's an expert
on the Negro leagues. Believe it or believe it or not,
Melissa was a white girl from Oregon. For a while,
she worked in the front office of the Cincinnati res Uh.
(24:37):
Let me let me get back to your story. We'll
we'll continue to work some calls in here as we
go along. So you let me move forward a little
bit here. You have attended clan rallies. Now, it's one
thing to meet, uh, someone who's in a position of
(24:57):
authority for whatever reason you I want to call it
that in a hotel room. But to go to clan
rally where there might be ten or twenty or how
many people? What did you do in advance or did
you just show up?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Both? I have just shown up, and I've also been
invited to rallies. Okay, so there are two kinds of
and also guess what, I've even spoken at clan rallies.
You know there are two kinds of rallies. There are
public rallies and they're private rallies. A public rally, you know,
it's when you occupy you know, a piece of public
(25:37):
property like a city park. All right, so it's public
anybody can go. Now if there's gonna be violence, and
you know big protests, is gonna be a barrier of
law enforcement between the protesters and the clan sure, all right,
so you can't really get to them. You can see them,
but you can't get to them. If it's surprise, if
(25:59):
it's you know, some rural area where a lot of
people support the plan, you know there may not be
any law enforcement. Then you know, you just show up.
Most people they are supporters. A private rally you have
to be invited to, and this might be the property
of a clansman or a clanswoman who may own some
farm in some rural area and they use it for
(26:20):
a clan rally. Where you just can't go on somebody's
private property without an invitation. So I've been invited by
a leader, a grand dragon, or an imperial wizard. And
when you're invited there on private property, yeah, there will
be some clan people who don't want you there and
they resent that you're there, but they don't do anything
because there is a such a paramilitary there is a
(26:43):
chain of command. If the leader wants you there, they
have to abide by it.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Okay, And over time, how many clan rallies do you think,
either private or public have you found.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yourself at over the years?
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Be just over a dozen?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Did you ever feel, uh, you know, other than just
the normal apprehension that I would I would expect expect
anybody would have driving to one of these events, did
you ever feel that, you know, people were prepared to
confront you. I mean, you know, if you had any invitation,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Was there? You know? Was it always you know?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Some Again, I don't want to use the word acceptance
because I don't think that they accepted you, but they
tolerated your presence.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Would that be an accurate way to describe it, darryl Uh?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
In some cases it was acceptance. In some of cases
it was tolerated. You know. So let's say I'm interviewing
a plan leader, you know, for this, for this, for
this book, and uh, well, I mean, how can I
write a book about the plan and never have attended
the plan rally. Right, So he invites me to see
what it's all about. So I'm accepted there. I'm treating
(27:56):
him fairly. He's helping me out with my book. You know,
let me know what goes on in the clan, right,
it comes for yourself, et cetera. Now, there are like
I said, there are members who you can feel the resentment.
You know, why is this person here, you know, on
our property? Why is he here at our rally? This
is for us? Why is he here? That kind of thing?
You know, you can feel it in the air. Yeah,
(28:17):
and there are others who welcome you, and hey, you know,
you know, welcome blah blah blah. You know, you know,
would you think about this anything? You know, you need
to explain to you about about our ritual, et cetera,
et cetera. So some people are accommodating, some people are
kind of stand obage.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Were were you ever at a clan rally?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Not that there were any black members of the clan,
but were you able to plan rally where there were
other observers like yourself.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
I've been to a few where there were some black
protesters and and other people you know, they're white, you know,
white and black protesting. Yeah, and you know, of course
a lot of them didn't know why I was here
and what I what was I doing talking to these
plan people and not yelling and screaming at them.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Let me grab one of a quick call here and
then we're going to take a break and I want
to get to a couple of more callers as well.
Davis in Stoneham, Dave, you were next time I said
with Darryl Davis, author the book The Clan Whisper.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
Hey, Jam, thank you for taking a cane and it's
been great to hear your story, though I mainly had
I had a question for you about what advice would
you give to people who are who are trying to
reach across and like trying to have these conversations with
you know, adversarial folks to their point of view. You know,
(29:35):
like we had that conversation before this one where where
a lot of folks were kind of saying, you know,
listening to Bernie on his conversation, But it seems like
with you, it's almost taking that to an extreme, Dave.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Dave, it's a really good point you raised.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And one of the reasons we're doing these back to
back hours is we were talking about just conservatives and liberals,
you know, agreed difficultization on Democrats and Republicans. Here are
you talking about black man, courageous black man and members
of the ku Klux Klan. I don't know if there's
a parallel here, but I think Dave's question is a
really good one.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Darryl, Yes, absolutely well. You know, for people with extreme
points of view, sometimes you have to do extreme things
to have that civil conversation. And what I have learned,
Dave is this, I have been to all fifty states.
I have been to sixty four countries on six continents.
(30:34):
What does that mean. It means I've been exposed to
a wide variety of people. And I can tell you something,
no matter how far I've gone from our own country
to the United States, where there's right next door to Canada,
or right next door to Mexico or halfway around the globe,
no matter who I meet, maybe they don't look like me,
or speak my language, or worship like me, or maybe
(30:55):
not even worship at all. I've always concluded, Dave, that
every single person I've encountered is a human being. And
I can tell you something. Every human being on this
planet wants these five core values in their life, regardless
of their political affiliation, religion, color, whatever. Everyone wants to
be loved, They want to be respected, they want to
(31:18):
be heard, they want to be treated fairly and truthfully,
and they want the same things for their family as
you want for yours. And if we can learn to
navigate or apply these five core values when we find
ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a society or
culture in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, I can
(31:40):
guarantee you that your navigation of that situation, that culture,
that society will be much more smooth, much more positive,
and much more productive. And that is what gives me
that entree into this world of white supremacy. Not that
I agree with them whatsoever, and not that I've bend
over and and acquiesce. No, I mean they know where
(32:01):
I stand, okay, but I'm learning the I and I
do it in a civil manner, and as a result,
they reciprocate, most of them do. Outside my share of
violence where you know, somebody put their hands on me
and I've had to defend myself and you know it
ends up in a fight, but those have been few
and far between. And so I've had great conversations and
(32:23):
as a result, not overnight, but over time, those those
conversations ruminate in their minds and it causes a cognitive
dissonance because they've found out or they find out that
they've been believing something that simply does not apply to
their experience with people like me or or a Jewish
friend of mine, or another black person or whatever. So
(32:45):
it causes a cognitive dissonance and they end up leaving
and renouncing that ideology, and I end up with their
robes and hoods.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah, that's what I want to get to it in
a second, Dave, I'm up on my break. That was
a great question, particularly coming off as off of Lafe hour.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I appreciate the question, and please keep listening to the
Night Side. You're a thoughtful listener. Thank you so much,
and call her thank you Dad. Thanks Dad. Well, take
a quick break.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Also, there's a ted talk that that I would recommend
to everyone that Darryl has presented, which is just fascinating.
And we're gonna get to the to what I think
is going to be a fascinating conclusion to this hour.
If you have if you know the story, obviously you're
(33:31):
not gonna be fascinated. But if you don't know the story,
where do you hear? Hear how it ends? Darryl Davis
is my guest, the Clan Whisper back after this.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's Night Side with Ray's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Well, I guess is Darryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
His book The Clean Whisper, as I mentioned, you can
find his ted talk on YouTube as well.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Daryl, we're tied on time.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I got a couple of other folks who hopefully we
can get in here, but very quickly.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
You have been able to convince clan members.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
To leave the organization, and some of them have gifted
you their clan paraphernalia. The end of your Ted talk
is amazing. How many clan robes have you collected at
this point? Or a clan head whatever they call their
point little pointy head dresses.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
They call them a hood or a helmet. Okay, but
you know I don't convince them to leave. I give
them reason to convince themselves. So you know you have you.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Have, you have quite a collection of collects clean Yes.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
I do, Yes, I do. In the in the forty
five years that I've been doing this, you know, including
the time I spent researching and the time I spent, actually,
you know, going to these things, and I still continue
to do it. I have been the impetus for over
two hundred white supremacists to leave their organizations include Ku Klupsklan,
Patriot Front, Neo Nazis, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
For that deserves.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
That deserves a round of applause from our digital studio
audience and from me. I want to get maybe one
or two more of these folks in real quickly if
I can, because I suspect I want to say congratulations.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Darryl. There's a different dal He's in New Brunswick. Daryl.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I only got less than a minute for you in
one other caller. I'm not You've been waiting a long time,
but I want to get you in.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Go ahead, Darryl, Hey, Dan, Darryl, Darryl Great, Darryl.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Way to go.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Ferg Jenkins, great baseball player of Canada, Black.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Fins, Hall of Famer, Hall of Famer.
Speaker 8 (35:41):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
He was actually in her basement at the age of
twelve years old in southern Ontario, across from Detroit. And
going back to your prior guest, the question being is
I was at a wedding in Chilkoffee, Ohio years back,
and somebody said, and they were dressed like herb Tarlet
believe it or not from debe therapy you And they asked,
(36:02):
what are one of them doing here? And I looked
at him and says, what are you talking about? I'm
from Canada right And at the same time and at
the same time the movie Jangle Uh. Did you ever
talk to Quentin Tarantino about how he actually got the
aspect for part of that movie?
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I never did.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
No. Yeah, we've got to be quick for me. Man,
you're you're you're killing me on time here, what's what's
the end of the story?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Go ahead?
Speaker 4 (36:31):
I I think Daryl already exampled that with all the
U Clans people giving them their road trips, asking if
he's ever had people come to him and say, look
what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, L give him give a quick answer if you'd
be so kind.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yes, absolutely, you know, and people, people, even people I
don't even know, who've seen my ted Talk will email
me and say, you know, i'man you know I I'm
in the plan and I watched your tik talk. I'm rethinking.
I get in contact with them and next thing you know,
they're mailing me to my po box. They rode the hoods.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Wow, Hey, Daryl and new Brunswick, thank you. We got
We've covered the continent. Oregon and Melissa and Oregon and
Daryln new brother.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Thanks Jo. Let me get very quickly, very quickly.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
One other quick comment from one of our listeners, a
little closer to home.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Matt, go ahead, Matt. We only got about a minute.
Go right ahead, and.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
Then Dan, I'm going to be very very quick. I
appreciate everything that you have done, and I wanted to
say that first and foremost, and the quick question I
would have is if with Tom Netsker, if you had
any if you were ever moved too many.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
I knew Tom Metzger. Tom Mesker was out in California,
then he moved to Indiana. I knew him, and I
interviewed him a few times and very vicious, vicious white supremacist.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
And I'm assuming everything you've done in every aspect. You're
a true American hero.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Thank you, Matt. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
So, this guy Metzger is someone who you interviewed, but
you weren't able to change his viewpoint towards anything.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I assume you know, no, you know, some people will
go to their grave with that. And Tom Mesker did
he died a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, look, Darryl, the book is The Clan Whisper.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
That's easy to get I assume on places like Amazon.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Okay, absolutely well, Darryl.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I really enjoyed the hour. I knew it would be good.
But you're an America. You are an American hero. Thank
goodness for what you've done. And thank goodness that those
two hundred members of the Ku Klux Klan you know,
realize the error of their ways and uh and return
their paraphernalia their clothing to you. That's a that's a
(39:00):
pretty significant step for people to take to not only
reject the racism that they somehow were attracted to, and
hopefully they have become people who have told their stories
over time as well, and hope to meet you someday.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Darryl. Congratulations, Thank you very much, man.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
I really appreciate it, and I appreciate all your listeners
for tuning in and giving me your questions to check
on my book, The Clan Whisperer.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
You bet you we will, You bet you we will.
Thanks so much, Daryl, appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
You care, you will be well, be safe. Thank you.
When we get back. We got one more hour here
on a Monday night.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I think that was a real interesting hour, good calls
from my guests, from my listeners. I thank all of
them for that. And we'll be back on Night's side
right after this with a final hour here on a
Monday night.
It's nights with Dan Rays.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Even better news for the Red Sox.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Dan, I'd like to mention that the Red Sox obviously
often they open that series with the A's from somewhere
in California. The Yankees losing to the Minnesota Twins tonight
seven nothing at the eighth inning, which is good news
for the Red Sox.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Absolutely at a lot of scoreboard watching this time of year.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, by by not by not playing, they'll pick up
some ground. Or the Yankees, and maybe even on Toronto.
I'm not sure if Toronto's playing tonight the eleventh. Oh well,
they may book up a full game on Toronto. My goodness.
But the Yankees, our boy, the Yankees got lit up tonight.
Seven nothing nothing offensively, let me tell you gonna get interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thanks Dan.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
We have a gentleman with us tonight who was a
guest during our eight o'clock hour a little over a
week ago. If I'm not mistaken, his name is Daryl Day,
and he is called the Clean Whisperer. I don't know, Daryl,
if you like that name or not, but I think
somehow it got hung on you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
How are you, sir, I'm.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Doing fine, Dan, Thank you for having me really appreciate it. Yeah,
the name is fine and in fact, just the name
of my brand new book.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh well that kind of works then, doesn't Well, indeed,
cly tell people how how they can get a copy
of that book. So, just to make it clear for
anybody who is unfamiliar with our show and didn't have
wasn't listening the night we had you on, you having
to be black African American, and I'm not sure how
(01:39):
you like to identify yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Give me what phrase you're most comfortable with?
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Black is fine?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Black? Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And at a point in time, you, as a.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Black man, decided, Hm, I'd like to know what this
Ku Klux Klan thing is all about, and really what
makes these folks tick? Tell us when this was and
what prompted you to attend clan rallies and basically try
(02:10):
to reach out and I don't want to say make
friends with them, but to better understand the source of
their discontent.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Would that be way to describe it as gently as possible?
Speaker 5 (02:23):
I was Yeah, when I was age ten, I was
the only black Cuff scout in a parade. In fact,
right there in the Boston area, remember that, Yeah, oh yeah,
we had a march from lessons in the Concorde.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
It was nineteen sixty eight, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Nineteen sixty eight, right, And I first lived in Boston
right there in Roxbury. I just come back from overseas.
My dad was US embassy and we'd just come back home.
And then the school systems were so bad in Roxbury
that almost after three weeks, we moved out to Belmont
and I lived there for a year. But we had
(03:03):
a parade, and I was the only black stoff participating,
and somewhere along the parade route, I was getting pelted
with bottles and sort of popkins and small debris in
the street, just by a very small group of people
and mixed in with the larger crowd. I said, I
was the only black participant. The crowd was all white,
(03:24):
and I didn't know what was happening. And I thought,
you know, oh, these people over here on the sidewalk
must not like the Scouts. And then when my Scout
leaders came running over to me and covered me with
their own bodies and quickly escorted me out of the danger,
I'm realizing that no other Scout is giving the special protection.
So now I'm wondering, you know, what on earth did
(03:44):
I do to cause these people to attack me like this?
And I kept asking my scout leaders, and all they
would do is kind of shush me and rush me along,
tell me to keep on moving, keep on moving, everything
will be fine. So I kept moving and fortunately the perpetrators,
you know, did not follow us. And when I got home,
I still didn't have an answer. But my mom and
(04:04):
dad were at home when I arrived, and they were
cleaning me up and putting band aids on me and
asked me, how did you fall down and get all
scraped up? I explained to them, you know, I didn't
fall down to them exactly what had happened. And for
the first time in my life, Dan, at the age
of ten, my parents explained to me what racism was,
believe it or not. I had never even heard the word, okay, racism,
(04:26):
because I was around people from all over the world.
You know. My parents were US diplomats, so I went
to school with other diplomatic kids from other embassies. So
I saw a lot of diversity, you know, at an
early age, and racism did not exist in our sere.
And so when my parents were telling me this. I
didn't believe them.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
And you're a ten year old little boy, Yeah, you
was a flag bearers.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You were a flag.
Speaker 6 (04:50):
Bearer that in that parade that is direct.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Belmont, Massachusetts in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
Okay, yeah, we were marching from right next door, from
less than in the I lived in Belmont. Yeah, And
so you know, when I finally realized that my parents
were telling me the truth, I formed a question in
my mind, which was, how can you hate me when
you don't even know me? And I want and so
all my life up there looking for the answer to
that question. So as I got older, you know, and
(05:18):
I learned about the Two Clucks plan. Because nobody had
been able to answer that question for me, I bought
books on black supremacy, white supremacy, the clan, the neo Nazis,
you name it, and the books all talked about it,
if they didn't answer the question. And when I would
ask people, how can people be like that? You know,
the answer was, oh, Darryl, you know some people are
just like that. That's just the way it is. Yeah,
(05:38):
that's not an answer. So I figured, well, who's better
to ask that question of than someone who would go
so far as to join an organization that literally practices
hating people who don't look like them or who don't,
you know, believe as they believe. So that's when I
decided I wanted to seek out, you know, clan members
and interview that.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So what what age were you when you you started
this journey into the Ku Klux Klan.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
Okay, that would be nineteen ninety Well, actually, I'm sorry,
it was actually earlier than that. It was like nineteen
eighty three, and then I started writing the book in
nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Okay, So you're you're an adult in nineteen eighty three.
I'm trying to do.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Years out of college. Yeah, hi, I graduated nineteen eighty okay.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
And so what strategy you did you develop? I mean
I kind of imagine that you were going to just
show up. Maybe you did.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Actually, yeah, there are a few times when I did.
I had my secretary it called these people. My secretary
was white. He's passed on now, that particular secretary. And
because I would get the numbers for the people that
I want to interview, I figured i'd go around the country.
I was going to start. I live in Maryland right now,
I'd go I start in Maryland, interview the clan leader
(06:57):
in Maryland, and then go up north, go down south,
go to the midwat go to the west, interview other
plan leaders and other members, and write and write this book,
and I will become the first.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I mean, I can't believe that these guys had their
number listed. Did they have like an office a ku
klux klan on this is Maryland in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
I realized that, yeah, well, well what happens is this?
You know back then? You know, well even today. You know,
if you want to have a rally on public property,
right you have to have a permit. So you go
to city hall, you fill out an application, state you
know where you want to what piece of property you
want to occupy, public park, up the street, corner, you
(07:36):
know whatever, And you fill out the application and you
have your name and number there and that's public record.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Rally.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I've got the record and call the number.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Okay, We're going to pause here because the story of
your meeting and the moment when you met each other
is fascinating and I want to give it an opportunity
for you to tell it in an uninterrupted fashion. My
guest is Darryl Davis. Darryl has a book called The
Klan Whisper. He happens to be black, and he reached
(08:10):
out to members and leadership of the Ku Klux Klan
in Maryland and in other states, and he's been quite
successful at it, ironically, and we will get his story,
which I think is an amazing story of courage, uh
and conviction. And if you'd like to talk to Daryl
and ask a question, you are more than one going
to join the conversation. Or if you'd like to give him
(08:32):
a tip off your hat and say, hey, you you
approached a problem and where do you hear some of
the successes that he has had six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty
Coming right back on night Side.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
With Darryl Davis, The Clan Whisper. Back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This, You're on night Side with Dan Ray on BZ
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
My his is Darryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
His book The Clean Whisper is available, but part of
the story is he reaches out to the head of
the Ku Klux Klan in the state of Maryland. What
year we talking here, Darryl, Just to put it in
some context.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Mid eighties.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
That's when I first started, you know, researching them and
things like that. I actually reached out to him in
nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Okay, fine, So now it's nineteen ninety, that's thirty five
years ago. Your secretary set up a meeting a kind
of on neutral ground, I guess, in a hotel room.
And it was an interesting opportunity for him to walk
in the room and see you.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I assume he knew you were black.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
No, he did not know I was black, because I'd
gotten his number from someone who promised, who made me
promise not to tell the leader where I got his
personal information and this and this guy gave me a warning.
He said, Daryl, do not fool with him. He will
kill you.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
And so I'm like, well, that's the reason why I
need to see him. You know, I need to find
why would he kill me just because I'm black? Come on,
and I need I need to find out more about this.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
He walks in the room with a bodyguard. Who's who's
who's packing heat?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Yes? Yeah, And of course, well the bodyguard walked in first,
and he didn't see me because you had to turn
a corner once you come into the motel door, and
then you see who's in the room. So as soon
as the bodyguard saw me, he like froze in his
traps because you know, he was expecting a white guy
(10:41):
and uh. And the leader was behind the bodyguard, but
on the other side of the corner, so he didn't
realize that his his bodyguard had stopped short. And so
the leader came from around the corner and slammed right
into the guy's back and knocked the guy forward. And
so now they're stumbling around trying to regain their balance,
and I'm just sitting there looking at them, and I
(11:02):
could read their faces. You know, it was a lot
of apprehension, and I just I could see they were thinking,
wait a minute, you know, did the deskclort give us
the wrong room number? Is this an ambush? And what's
going on here? Exactly? So I stood up and I
displayed both my palms to show I had nothing in
my hands, and I walked forward and I said, Hi,
(11:22):
I'm Darryl Davis. And the leader shook my hand, and
so you know that was cool. Yeah, the bodyguard shook
my hand and I said, please come on in, come
on in, and have a seat, and the leader sat
down and the bodyguard stood to his right. And so
the leader asked me for some ID. I provided the ID,
(11:42):
and then I sat down and we started, you know,
this conversation. I had a bag beside my chair, a
black canvas bag in which I had you know, a
blank you know, tapes to record, and I had a
copy of the Bible, because the Plan claims to be
a Christian organization. And they said that the Bible itself
preaches racial separation. So I've never seen that in the Bible.
(12:05):
So i want, you know, say, hey, you know, show
me exactly where Chapter and Versus says blacks and whites
must be separate. So I'm all prepared. So every time
he made a biblical reference or or I needed a
fresh tape, I'd reached down into the bag. Well, when
I reached down, the bodyguard would reach up and rest
his hand on the butt of the gun. And you know,
(12:27):
but I got it. You know, he's doing his job.
His job is to protect his boss, and I'm the enemy.
I'm the black guy, and he doesn't know what's in
my bag. So I fully understood that.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You know, I would have been tempting at some point
to say, hey, you want to examine the bag. I'm
going to go in here with you. But that's need
there and there, and then you have you had a
little incident which well, he literally broke the ice, if
I recall exactly.
Speaker 5 (12:55):
So, the bodyguard had relapsed. He figured there was nothing,
you know of day in the bag, no kind of threat.
He relaxed, and I was going in and out of
the bag and he didn't move. Well. A little over
an hour into the conversation, there was a very short,
fast noise that came out of nowhere, and we all
jumped and I flew out of my chair. I'm gett
(13:16):
ready to come across that table because I knew that
the plan leader had made the noise. I didn't know
what the noise was. And I keep hearing the other
guy's voice saying, Darryl, don't fool with him. He'll kill you,
and so I thought, oh, you know, he's getting ready
to do something, and so I jumped up, and I'm
going to come across the table and take the bodyguard
and the clan leader down to the ground and disarmed
(13:36):
the bodyguards because my job is to protect myself and
my secretary and so the bodyguard quickly went for his gun.
He didn't pull it out, but he rested his hand
on the butt of the gun again. And I'm standing
with my hands on the table, getting ready to come across,
and the plan leader and I are looking at each
other right, I mean, less than a foot away I
to eye. Neither one of us said anything because our
(13:58):
eyes did the talking. My eyes were saying to him,
what did you just do? His eyes were saying to me,
what did you just do? And the bodyguard was looking
at both of us, like, what do either one of
y'all just do? Well? Mary, the secretary, she's sitting on
top of the dresser, and she had realized what had happened,
and she explained it to us, and it happened again,
and we all began laughing. There was an ice bucket
(14:21):
next to her, which Mary and I had set up earlier.
We'd gotten soda pop out of the vending machine and
filled the ice bucket with ice and put the soda
in there to get it cold so we could offer
these people a drink, a cold drink. And the ice
had begun melting and the cans of soda were shifting
down the ice and that that was all there was
to it.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You know, you had a lesson there because both of
you were apprehensive simultaneously exactly.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
But that proved that we both, you know, despite the
fact that we were on opposite spec ends of the
ideological spectrum, we both were human beings. We both felt
fear of the same time, we both felt release when
the fear was addressed, and we both began laughing at
the humor in the situation at how ignorant we both
were because we didn't understand something we accused each other
(15:13):
of doing.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
It.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Now was this.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I don't want to spoil the surprise ending here, okay,
because I want to walk people through this. So you
had a conversation with him at some point, I assume
you agreed to disagree that there was no meeting of
the bob.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Well, yeah, I mean I did not agree with with
with most most of what he was saying, but I
was there to interview him to find out why. I
wasn't there to change him. My only goal was not
to convert him, not to say you're wrong, give me
your robe or whatever else. I was here to find out,
how can you hate me? You don't even know me?
(15:54):
Just give me the answer to that question. We can
shake hands goodbye and never see each other again.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Met him subsequently, So how did that cop meeting?
Speaker 5 (16:03):
And he well, we ended shaking hands and saying let's
keep in touch. And I said, well, I got other
planned people to interview around the country, but I will definitely,
you know, give you a holler when well, when my
book is ready, let you know, and so form and
so on. So you know, I would call him periodically,
and if I was going to be in his county,
(16:23):
I said, hey, man, what are you doing. If he
said nothing, I said, come run this errand with me.
I gotta go drop off a CD for somebody, or
a music contract to somebody. I'm, you know, a musician
by trade. He said, okay, I'll meet you at the
parking ride. You know, he didn't want me to come
into his house, but he sold he meet me at
the parking ride and the bodyguard would be there. Bodyguard
was sit in my back seat and the leader was
(16:45):
sitting my front seat, and we'd ride around his county.
I'd drop off a music contract or a CD or whatever,
and then we stop and get lunch. Now I have
had lunch and breakfast or dinner or beverages with tens
of thousands of white people. He had never socialized with
a black person before. Yeah, he works with them on
the job because he has to draw a paycheck. But
(17:06):
you know, but when he clapped out at five.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
O'clock, Daryl, what was his his employment? I mean that
that's always surprising me. Me at these guys with their
big names, the Grand Kleagle of the Grand Wizard or
whatever they are, Right, what type of work did this
guy do?
Speaker 5 (17:22):
He did manual labor. I won't give it specifically. He
would lose he would lose a lot of a lot
of jobs because people found out that he worked there.
But you know, let's just say, you know, he has
to do with construction, So.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Not not a highly if he's doing manual labor. Not
a highly educated individual.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Uh in his case. Correct, But that but that is
not necessarily reflective of all clan people. Okay, a klansman
or clanswoman, or any white supremacists for that matter, is
not step stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. They
come from all different wall of life, from third grade
dropout all the way Dan to President of the United States, President.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Warren G.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Harding was born into the two plus plan in the
green room of the White House Harry Truman. President Truman
had joined the plan for a short time before he
became president. He didn't like it, he got out and
went on to become president. So you know, it goes
every educational level, every socio economic status, etc.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Fair enough, let me take a quick break for a
quick newscast. We got about three four minutes here. I
want to go to phone calls, and I also want
to you. I want you to amplify on your story
and with some of the other anecdotes of individuals that
you met. Also, you went to some clan rallies where
they were cross burnings, which had to make you feel
pretty uncomfortable, but you were I'm not going to say accepted,
(18:54):
but your presence was at least tolerated from what at
least I took from our last effort.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
We get back.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I want to get to a couple of phone calls
right off, and then I want to leave your story,
uh In. And I think it's fascinating that, uh that
what you've done here and people can forget that the
Ku Klux Klan may be a shadow of itself, you know,
when it was in its at its height after the
(19:21):
Civil War in the anti Bell himself. But at this
time there was still pretty active groups and may be
some still today, I don't know, but they certainly have
gone to ground. But these were groups when you were
doing these meetings, when they they had a bigger presence.
And uh and uh and and and I think a
(19:43):
larger I hope a larger membership.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I hope that's been diminished over time. Uh.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
And you actually have the proof of that, and we'll
get to that as well. We'll take a quick break.
My guest is Darryl Davis, the Clan Whisper. Get to
some couple of phone calls if you want to join
the conversation. Get on early six months in two, five,
four thirty or six one seven.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I think this is a fascinating story, a story of
great deal of courage, by the way, and my opinion
as well. Back on night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
It's Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
My guest is Darryl Davis. Happens to be a black gentleman.
He's written a book called The Klan Whisper. We're recounting
his efforts to reach out to members of the Ku
Klux Klan in the nineteen nineties and subsequently to find
out why why they hate him because he's simply black
(20:40):
and they obviously don't know him.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And Darryl's is just account of recount for us the
first meeting and had with the leader of the Marilyn
ku Klux Klan. Darryl, I want to work our callers
in as we tell the story. Let me go to
first Melissa in Oregon. Melissa, welcome back to Nightside.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
How are you?
Speaker 7 (20:59):
You're alway, Darryl Davis, Hi, Dan, Hi, Darryl, thanks for
sharing the story. Gone terrific. I wanted to ask you
if you've engaged with any former Negro league players. I
know a lot of them are no longer living, but
I know a lot of them dealt with the klu
Klux plan and other racism, and I was just wondering
(21:21):
if you ever had the experience to speak with them.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
And by the way, just by way of background, Darryl
Melissa is a historian. She actually has presented at the
Baseball Hall of Fame on several occasions. She has a
particular expertise in the Negro leagues and has spent a
lot of time interviewing some of these players in the
in recent relatively recent times.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Yes, Melissa, I did have the occasion to speak to
a few many many years ago before I got involved
in this. Unfortunately, so I didn't you know, get you know,
they're still on racism and the plan and things like that.
I was honored to meet some of those players who
broke around and open doors, you know for future players.
(22:09):
So I was blessed to have met some of them.
And as you said, a lot of them you know,
have gone now or or are no longer you know,
traveling and things like that.
Speaker 7 (22:19):
So if it's okay, I'd like to make two recommendations
we do your story so powerful. The first is I
contact the Negro Leagues Museum in Kansas City. They're fantastic.
Although I've not done I know a lot of people
involved with it, and you might find overlaps there with
(22:41):
your experiences. The second thing is SABER dot org s
a br dot org, which is the Society for American
Baseball Research, and they have a very powerful negro Leagues
committee and they would I just I'm hearing what you're
talking about, and I just feel like there's overlaps there.
Dan can give you my information, and I can connect
(23:03):
you with some people that are powerful researchers in this
space that there might be there might be some synchronicity there.
And I don't mean to, you know, I just when
I when I heard him, when I heard Dan say
tip of the cap, I think of Satchel Page. I thought,
you know what these players do?
Speaker 8 (23:24):
You know?
Speaker 7 (23:24):
People forget what Page went through, right, And I think
one of the things when I heard your story is,
you know, how can you hate someone you don't know?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Right?
Speaker 7 (23:34):
And so that's what's so powerful, right. And I think
what we learned from the Negro League players is they
were just baseball players that loved baseball right in many cases,
but people hated him because of their skin color, right.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Exactly, exactly, Yes, absolutely, you know, And Dan, please, you know,
please give them a list of my information as well.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
I'd be happy to share with you. Well, I'll let
you go. I know you have many more callers, but
your story is fascinating, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I know, I know I have your phone number, but
you're coming in on the line. Here is anonymous.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Leave your phone number with rob from me and I'll
make sure, you guys get in.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Touch, Okay, I promise you all right, all right?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Uh yeah, Melissa loves baseball and uh and she's a
great researcher. I mean, she's she's somebody who has has
met a lot of she she's like she's an expert
on the Negro leagues. Believe it or believe it or not,
Melissa was a white girl from Oregon. For a while,
she worked in the front office of the Cincinnati res Uh.
(24:37):
Let me let me get back to your story. We'll
we'll continue to work some calls in here as we
go along. So you let me move forward a little
bit here. You have attended clan rallies. Now, it's one
thing to meet, uh, someone who's in a position of
(24:57):
authority for whatever reason you I want to call it
that in a hotel room. But to go to clan
rally where there might be ten or twenty or how
many people? What did you do in advance or did
you just show up?
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Both? I have just shown up, and I've also been
invited to rallies. Okay, so there are two kinds of
and also guess what, I've even spoken at clan rallies.
You know there are two kinds of rallies. There are
public rallies and they're private rallies. A public rally, you know,
it's when you occupy you know, a piece of public
(25:37):
property like a city park. All right, so it's public
anybody can go. Now if there's gonna be violence, and
you know big protests, is gonna be a barrier of
law enforcement between the protesters and the clan sure, all right,
so you can't really get to them. You can see them,
but you can't get to them. If it's surprise, if
(25:59):
it's you know, some rural area where a lot of
people support the plan, you know there may not be
any law enforcement. Then you know, you just show up.
Most people they are supporters. A private rally you have
to be invited to, and this might be the property
of a clansman or a clanswoman who may own some
farm in some rural area and they use it for
(26:20):
a clan rally. Where you just can't go on somebody's
private property without an invitation. So I've been invited by
a leader, a grand dragon, or an imperial wizard. And
when you're invited there on private property, yeah, there will
be some clan people who don't want you there and
they resent that you're there, but they don't do anything
because there is a such a paramilitary there is a
(26:43):
chain of command. If the leader wants you there, they
have to abide by it.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Okay, And over time, how many clan rallies do you think,
either private or public have you found.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yourself at over the years?
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Be just over a dozen?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Did you ever feel, uh, you know, other than just
the normal apprehension that I would I would expect expect
anybody would have driving to one of these events, did
you ever feel that, you know, people were prepared to
confront you. I mean, you know, if you had any invitation,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Was there? You know? Was it always you know?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Some Again, I don't want to use the word acceptance
because I don't think that they accepted you, but they
tolerated your presence.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Would that be an accurate way to describe it, darryl Uh?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
In some cases it was acceptance. In some of cases
it was tolerated. You know. So let's say I'm interviewing
a plan leader, you know, for this, for this, for
this book, and uh, well, I mean, how can I
write a book about the plan and never have attended
the plan rally. Right, So he invites me to see
what it's all about. So I'm accepted there. I'm treating
(27:56):
him fairly. He's helping me out with my book. You know,
let me know what goes on in the clan, right,
it comes for yourself, et cetera. Now, there are like
I said, there are members who you can feel the resentment.
You know, why is this person here, you know, on
our property? Why is he here at our rally? This
is for us? Why is he here? That kind of thing?
You know, you can feel it in the air. Yeah,
(28:17):
and there are others who welcome you, and hey, you know,
you know, welcome blah blah blah. You know, you know,
would you think about this anything? You know, you need
to explain to you about about our ritual, et cetera,
et cetera. So some people are accommodating, some people are
kind of stand obage.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Were were you ever at a clan rally?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Not that there were any black members of the clan,
but were you able to plan rally where there were
other observers like yourself.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
I've been to a few where there were some black
protesters and and other people you know, they're white, you know,
white and black protesting. Yeah, and you know, of course
a lot of them didn't know why I was here
and what I what was I doing talking to these
plan people and not yelling and screaming at them.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Let me grab one of a quick call here and
then we're going to take a break and I want
to get to a couple of more callers as well.
Davis in Stoneham, Dave, you were next time I said
with Darryl Davis, author the book The Clan Whisper.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
Hey, Jam, thank you for taking a cane and it's
been great to hear your story, though I mainly had
I had a question for you about what advice would
you give to people who are who are trying to
reach across and like trying to have these conversations with
you know, adversarial folks to their point of view. You know,
(29:35):
like we had that conversation before this one where where
a lot of folks were kind of saying, you know,
listening to Bernie on his conversation, But it seems like
with you, it's almost taking that to an extreme, Dave.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Dave, it's a really good point you raised.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And one of the reasons we're doing these back to
back hours is we were talking about just conservatives and liberals,
you know, agreed difficultization on Democrats and Republicans. Here are
you talking about black man, courageous black man and members
of the ku Klux Klan. I don't know if there's
a parallel here, but I think Dave's question is a
really good one.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Darryl, Yes, absolutely well. You know, for people with extreme
points of view, sometimes you have to do extreme things
to have that civil conversation. And what I have learned,
Dave is this, I have been to all fifty states.
I have been to sixty four countries on six continents.
(30:34):
What does that mean. It means I've been exposed to
a wide variety of people. And I can tell you something,
no matter how far I've gone from our own country
to the United States, where there's right next door to Canada,
or right next door to Mexico or halfway around the globe,
no matter who I meet, maybe they don't look like me,
or speak my language, or worship like me, or maybe
(30:55):
not even worship at all. I've always concluded, Dave, that
every single person I've encountered is a human being. And
I can tell you something. Every human being on this
planet wants these five core values in their life, regardless
of their political affiliation, religion, color, whatever. Everyone wants to
be loved, They want to be respected, they want to
(31:18):
be heard, they want to be treated fairly and truthfully,
and they want the same things for their family as
you want for yours. And if we can learn to
navigate or apply these five core values when we find
ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a society or
culture in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, I can
(31:40):
guarantee you that your navigation of that situation, that culture,
that society will be much more smooth, much more positive,
and much more productive. And that is what gives me
that entree into this world of white supremacy. Not that
I agree with them whatsoever, and not that I've bend
over and and acquiesce. No, I mean they know where
(32:01):
I stand, okay, but I'm learning the I and I
do it in a civil manner, and as a result,
they reciprocate, most of them do. Outside my share of
violence where you know, somebody put their hands on me
and I've had to defend myself and you know it
ends up in a fight, but those have been few
and far between. And so I've had great conversations and
(32:23):
as a result, not overnight, but over time, those those
conversations ruminate in their minds and it causes a cognitive
dissonance because they've found out or they find out that
they've been believing something that simply does not apply to
their experience with people like me or or a Jewish
friend of mine, or another black person or whatever. So
(32:45):
it causes a cognitive dissonance and they end up leaving
and renouncing that ideology, and I end up with their
robes and hoods.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah, that's what I want to get to it in
a second, Dave, I'm up on my break. That was
a great question, particularly coming off as off of Lafe hour.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I appreciate the question, and please keep listening to the
Night Side. You're a thoughtful listener. Thank you so much,
and call her thank you Dad. Thanks Dad. Well, take
a quick break.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Also, there's a ted talk that that I would recommend
to everyone that Darryl has presented, which is just fascinating.
And we're gonna get to the to what I think
is going to be a fascinating conclusion to this hour.
If you have if you know the story, obviously you're
(33:31):
not gonna be fascinated. But if you don't know the story,
where do you hear? Hear how it ends? Darryl Davis
is my guest, the Clan Whisper back after this.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's Night Side with Ray's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Well, I guess is Darryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
His book The Clean Whisper, as I mentioned, you can
find his ted talk on YouTube as well.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Daryl, we're tied on time.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I got a couple of other folks who hopefully we
can get in here, but very quickly.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
You have been able to convince clan members.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
To leave the organization, and some of them have gifted
you their clan paraphernalia. The end of your Ted talk
is amazing. How many clan robes have you collected at
this point? Or a clan head whatever they call their
point little pointy head dresses.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
They call them a hood or a helmet. Okay, but
you know I don't convince them to leave. I give
them reason to convince themselves. So you know you have you.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Have, you have quite a collection of collects clean Yes.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
I do, Yes, I do. In the in the forty
five years that I've been doing this, you know, including
the time I spent researching and the time I spent, actually,
you know, going to these things, and I still continue
to do it. I have been the impetus for over
two hundred white supremacists to leave their organizations include Ku Klupsklan,
Patriot Front, Neo Nazis, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
For that deserves.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
That deserves a round of applause from our digital studio
audience and from me. I want to get maybe one
or two more of these folks in real quickly if
I can, because I suspect I want to say congratulations.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Darryl. There's a different dal He's in New Brunswick. Daryl.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I only got less than a minute for you in
one other caller. I'm not You've been waiting a long time,
but I want to get you in.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Go ahead, Darryl, Hey, Dan, Darryl, Darryl Great, Darryl.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Way to go.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Ferg Jenkins, great baseball player of Canada, Black.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Fins, Hall of Famer, Hall of Famer.
Speaker 8 (35:41):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
He was actually in her basement at the age of
twelve years old in southern Ontario, across from Detroit. And
going back to your prior guest, the question being is
I was at a wedding in Chilkoffee, Ohio years back,
and somebody said, and they were dressed like herb Tarlet
believe it or not from debe therapy you And they asked,
(36:02):
what are one of them doing here? And I looked
at him and says, what are you talking about? I'm
from Canada right And at the same time and at
the same time the movie Jangle Uh. Did you ever
talk to Quentin Tarantino about how he actually got the
aspect for part of that movie?
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I never did.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
No. Yeah, we've got to be quick for me. Man,
you're you're you're killing me on time here, what's what's
the end of the story?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Go ahead?
Speaker 4 (36:31):
I I think Daryl already exampled that with all the
U Clans people giving them their road trips, asking if
he's ever had people come to him and say, look
what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, L give him give a quick answer if you'd
be so kind.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yes, absolutely, you know, and people, people, even people I
don't even know, who've seen my ted Talk will email
me and say, you know, i'man you know I I'm
in the plan and I watched your tik talk. I'm rethinking.
I get in contact with them and next thing you know,
they're mailing me to my po box. They rode the hoods.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Wow, Hey, Daryl and new Brunswick, thank you. We got
We've covered the continent. Oregon and Melissa and Oregon and
Daryln new brother.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Thanks Jo. Let me get very quickly, very quickly.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
One other quick comment from one of our listeners, a
little closer to home.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Matt, go ahead, Matt. We only got about a minute.
Go right ahead, and.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
Then Dan, I'm going to be very very quick. I
appreciate everything that you have done, and I wanted to
say that first and foremost, and the quick question I
would have is if with Tom Netsker, if you had
any if you were ever moved too many.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
I knew Tom Metzger. Tom Mesker was out in California,
then he moved to Indiana. I knew him, and I
interviewed him a few times and very vicious, vicious white supremacist.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
And I'm assuming everything you've done in every aspect. You're
a true American hero.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Thank you, Matt. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
So, this guy Metzger is someone who you interviewed, but
you weren't able to change his viewpoint towards anything.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I assume you know, no, you know, some people will
go to their grave with that. And Tom Mesker did
he died a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, look, Darryl, the book is The Clan Whisper.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
That's easy to get I assume on places like Amazon.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Okay, absolutely well, Darryl.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I really enjoyed the hour. I knew it would be good.
But you're an America. You are an American hero. Thank
goodness for what you've done. And thank goodness that those
two hundred members of the Ku Klux Klan you know,
realize the error of their ways and uh and return
their paraphernalia their clothing to you. That's a that's a
(39:00):
pretty significant step for people to take to not only
reject the racism that they somehow were attracted to, and
hopefully they have become people who have told their stories
over time as well, and hope to meet you someday.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Darryl. Congratulations, Thank you very much, man.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
I really appreciate it, and I appreciate all your listeners
for tuning in and giving me your questions to check
on my book, The Clan Whisperer.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
You bet you we will, You bet you we will.
Thanks so much, Daryl, appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
You care, you will be well, be safe. Thank you.
When we get back. We got one more hour here
on a Monday night.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I think that was a real interesting hour, good calls
from my guests, from my listeners. I thank all of
them for that. And we'll be back on Night's side
right after this with a final hour here on a
Monday night.
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