September 17, 2025 • 37 mins
Last year the data showed that the majority of students in 561 MA elementary schools were not proficient in reading and less than half of MA's elementary and middle school students met or exceeded expectations on the 2024 English language arts MCAS, down more than 20% from pre-pandemic levels. Lawmakers have introduced a bill, the “Right to Read Act,” that would promote high quality comprehensive literacy instruction in all MA public schools. Mary Tamer, a former Boston School Committee member and the Executive Director of MassPotential, a nonprofit organization dedicated to ensuring the success of all K-12 students across the Commonwealth, joined us to discuss.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WVS, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you very much, Dan Watkins. As we move into
our talk show element of the program, where people are
more than welcome to join the conversation on different topics,
and the first topic tonight deals with the ability of
young people's students as young as third grade to read
(00:29):
and these statistics that we are seeing here in Massachusetts. Again,
I'd like to remind people we live in Massachusetts. We
do not live in a state that is not spending
a lot of money on public education, and not in
also a state that obviously has lots of colleges and universities,
and I wonder if they might not be able to help.
(00:53):
But but before we get to all of those theories,
some of which I strong believe in, there's a coalition.
It's called the Mass Reads Coalition m ASS for Massachusetts
Reads Coalition. UH. They have decided to support a piece
of legislation called the Right to Read Act. And with
(01:14):
us is Mary Tamer. Mary is a former Boston School
Committee member. She's the executive director of a group called
mass Potential, which I assume is supportive of this act.
So let's first of all get to know our guest
a little bit. Welcome back to nightside. Mary. It's been
too long.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
How are you it has Dan, It's great to hear
your voice. Nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Right back at you. Just your background. You you are
an educator by instinct and by and by profession. Just
refresh the recollection of my audience as to how deeply
you were committed to improving the educational standards here in
Massachusetts and giving kids a better the best education they
(01:58):
can get in Massachusetts schools.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Sure well, like you, Dan, I was very fortunate to
go through the Boston public schools, including Boston Latin School
and so and that was just.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I was there in the last century. You got out
many years after me, just a.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Few years after you, But it was I think we
both know though that we were incredibly fortunate to be
given such a rich educational experience as kids in Boston.
And you know, things have changed, unfortunately quite dramatically, and
whether we look at the statewide data or the data
in the city of Boston, it's a very different dynamic.
(02:41):
But I've been actively involved, not an educator, but longtime
educational advocate, educational policy maker, and work on the policy
and advocacy side of the work now, But as you mentioned,
I did serve on the school Committee under Meyrminino for
the entire four years of my term. I was the
only person on the committee who had two children enrolled
(03:04):
in the Boston public schools, and but have worked at
the Harvard Graduate School of Education, which is where I
received my master's in Education Policy and Management. Longtime tutor
actually used to tutor children struggling to learn how to
read in the Boston public schools. So I certainly have
been on the scene for a number of years now,
(03:25):
and I'm just very committed to making sure, given the
investments that we do make in education here in Massachusetts,
that we are giving children the best educational opportunity that
they should be receiving and that they deserve to receive.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well, the thing that has always struck me, and again
I use the word educator towards you, not necessarily meaning
you're a classroom teacher, but somebody who's just been immersed
in the entire conversation for most of not all, of
your career in some form of capacity. It's funny you
mentioned the tutoring program in Boston. It just seems to
me that One of the great benefits we have in
(04:01):
Boston are the colleges and the universities and you know BCBU,
Harvett and my t I know they're across the river,
but they're only a trolley or you know, an MBTA
car away Suffolk, Northeastern and Emerson. And I just wonder
if the city of Boston shouldn't take more advantage of
some of these these undergraduate and graduate students who could
(04:22):
help tutor kids. But we'll get to that. That's some
of my theories in a moment. How bad are the
numbers right now? And what are we what are we
looking at? And do parents really understand that right now
the numbers are going in the wrong direction. And it's
not just because as I understand that because of the
five year COVID interruption.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That's that's correct. I know a lot of folks like
to say this is because of COVID, But when we
look at our data, Dan, and you know for over
you know, more than twelve years now, and whether it's
the NAPE scores, which are national scores, or looking at
our MCAST scores, we've been on a clients for more
than a dozen years. Now Here in Massachusetts and so
(05:04):
it seems that, you know, the narrative, we always hear
we're number one, we're number one. But when you look
at this data and statewide right now, for our third graders,
only four in ten are reading on grade level, so
forty percent are reading on grade level and sixty percent
or not. And when we break down that data further,
(05:26):
when you're talking about our low income students, that's only
twenty four percent of those same students are reading on
grade level. Our students with disabilities fourteen percent, English learners,
ten percent. Black students are twenty seven percent. Latino students
are twenty two percent. And so these are alarming figures.
(05:48):
When you look, you know, at a city like Boston,
you know the numbers are even worse. And so when
we look at it's more like three in ten or
two intents are reading on grade level. And when you
consider that the majority of the students in the Boston
public schools are black and brown, when we look at
black and brown reading outcome, black and brown students and
(06:11):
they're reading outcomes, and this is across grades three through eight,
DAN only seventeen percent are reading proficiently seventeen percent. So
imagine being an eighth grader, and you're only seventeen percent
of those kids. Actually, by eighth grade, it's only fifteen
percent of kids are reading on grade level. Imagine going
(06:31):
into high school and how are you ever going to
be able to comprehend a biology textbook, a ninth grade
history textbook if you're four or five grade levels behind
where you should be.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, So there's a million questions that just popped up
in my head. I wonder if the whole concept of
social promotion, which is very few students are ever held back.
And when I was in elementary school, I wasn't in
the Boston public school. I was in a religious school
of Catholic school. Friends of mine got held back and
(07:08):
it wasn't perceived as a punishment. It was perceived as
an ability for them to catch up, you know, based
upon where they were at some point. Are kids ever
held back academically in the you were in the school committee, Yes, yes,
they ever held back.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You can be in Massachusetts. You can be held back once,
and so I think many years ago you could be
held back more than once. But now a child can
be retained once and so the issue of social promotion
is real, and I think you could talk to a
number of principals, high school principles, who will tell you
(07:46):
about the ninth graders who arrive, you know, on their
campuses and these students are not ready and oftentimes nowhere
near ready to do ninth grade work.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what happens to that student who is not I
ney to do ninth great work? He or she is
overwhelmed and they do check out. I mean.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
It's even earlier than that, though, jan And if you
had benefit, you know, the State House yesterday we had
over sixty people show up to testify. We had our
bills hearing before the Joint Committee on Education. We heard
some heartbreaking stories from families who talked about just the
absolute desperation of their children who were not reading in third, fourth,
(08:28):
or fifth grade and what that drove the children to.
Whether it was suicidality, just feeling absolutely hopeless, feeling that
they were unable to learn. I mean it is did
the negative internal messages that children give themselves when they
are not able to keep up with their peers in class,
(08:49):
when they they see everyone else understanding something that they're
not understanding. And this is why our bill would mandate
research and evidence based instruction and that is what is
consistently lacking DAN in the districts that we see where
children are doing so poorly. They they do not have
the access to the high quality instructional materials that they
(09:12):
need and deserve. And that's the same for the teachers.
To only a third of teachers in Massachusetts have access
to high quality instructional materials, and so we are putting
our teachers and our students at a disadvantage by not
providing them with what forty two other states, Just to
be clear, forty two other states have passed a bill
(09:32):
similar to our bill to say either they've passed a
bill or regulations to say we will mandate research and
evidence based instruction and we will no longer allow schools
and school districts to use materials that have been debunked
by science and research.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, we have so much to cover. Let me give
the phone number. Well, take a break, six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty.
I also want to drill down a little bit, because
there's so much materials that you've covered here in the
first ten or twelve minutes, and I don't want people
to be to be intimidated. But what I want them
(10:11):
to do is to join the conversation. I want to know. Obviously,
a lot of the urban schools, I think you focused
on Boston a lot, they're not doing well, and a
part of that is the economic strata of poverty, et cetera.
But some people will say, well, our school district is
doing great, or our school district in central Massachusetts or
(10:32):
in western Massachusetts. I want to focus it also from
a state wide point of view as well, So I
want to incorporate everyone in this conversation. If you'd like
to join the conversation, you'd have the numbers. We'll be
right back on Night's side with Mary tamer From, a
Boston School Committee member many years, an educational advocate and
(10:52):
in my opinion, an educator, and she is with her organization.
She's the executive director of Potential, and that's one of
the groups that is joined the Mass Reads Coalition in
support of the Right to Read Act. I know it
can sound a little cumbersome, but trust me, all they
trying to do is get kids in a better position
(11:13):
to deal with the world that not only are they
going to have to deal with for the next fifty
or sixty years. But if they count, if they can't
deal that, they will not be contributing to society. They
will be drawing down on society. And those of us
who are a little older and retiring, they are the
people who are going to support us in our retirement years.
(11:34):
So everybody has skin in the game. Coming back on
Night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you
Boston's News Radio with me.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
My guest is Mary Tamers. So Mary, let's look at
that general question real quickly, and that is obviously Boston
has some problems. We know that, okay, as many major
cities do. But how are the other school districts are
around the state. I'm not looking for the best of
(12:06):
the worst, but generally suburban school districts, for rural school
school districts, they doing well well.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
That's one of the things that's been I think most
surprising Dan about this is that the suburban districts are
frankly not doing that well. And as we heard from
many parents who testified yesterday who were representing the suburbs.
We had parents from Lexington need them like these are
two communities that are considered to have some of the
best school districts in the state, and both of those
(12:38):
districts are using curriculum that is not research and evidence space.
So it's considered low quality, it's considered debunked. And so
what we heard is that their numbers might look relatively
good from an outsider's perspective, but that's because so many
of the families in these communities can pay significant sums
(13:01):
of money to have their children privately tutored at home.
And so we had parent after parent yesterday talking about,
you know, being told, oh, you know, they're no, there's
nothing you know, there's nothing wrong, your child's doing fine.
And then the parents are realizing their children can't read
and they're having to hire private tutors. But you will
see significant gaps. And how how we can really point
(13:23):
to this is you know, thirty forty percentage point gaps
between the low income students and everyone else. And so
that really is a signal. And we've had so many
parents that are supporting the spill, whether they're parents of
children who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, whether they are
parents whose children just have not been properly taught how
(13:45):
to read with the right high quality materials. These folks
are frustrated, they're angry, and it's it's you know, when
our schools are not doing the most foundational thing that
they were intended to do, which to teach our children
to read, it's incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So what would this piece of legislation purport to do if,
in the infinite wisdom of the Great in General Coote,
it would to be passed.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So right now, districts, can you know, we are a state,
like many other states, that operate under a system of
local control. So individual school districts right now can pick
whatever curriculum they would like, whether it's high quality or not.
And about fifty percent of our districts are using high
quality materials and research and evidence based instruction. The other
(14:38):
fifty percent or not. And so what this bill would do,
and again in line with what forty two other states
have done, is to put a mandate in place. Now,
a mandate does not mean that everyone has to use
the same curriculum. It just means that you have to
use as a district leader, that you have to select
a curriculum that is considered under the state guide lines
(15:00):
as h q I AM or high quality instructional material.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Okay, it sounds very reasonable to me. One of the
things I think is that they should give every kid
at the age of two, or give the parent of
every kid hooked on phonics, because I think that, you know,
that's what my kids used, and they always were way
(15:25):
ahead of the curve in terms of reading ability and
my understanding from and you know more about this than
I do that where you are in the third grade
at reading ability, if you're behind, you are truly behind
the eight ball, potentially for life. If you are ahead of,
it's one of those points that you've got to be
(15:46):
aware of if you're a parent, because it says so
much about it does.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, it predicts.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
In the minute we have left before the news, in
the minute we have left before the news break, and
then we're going to go to phone calls after the
news break, explain what I just said to the audience
so they they don't understand it better from you go ahead.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Third grade is the year when students transition from learning
how to read to reading to learn, and so when
they are not at grade level by that third grade year,
there is significant research that tells us and that to
your point, there are dire outcomes. You are far less
likely to graduate from high school to have a vibrant
(16:28):
economic future. Unfortunately, your risk of incarceration goes up when
you're not reading on grade level by third grade. And
so there's lots of things that should concern anyone and
the fact that a lot of parents are not aware
of this, are not necessarily being told that their children
are struggling in school. There is one parent that is
(16:52):
part of our coalition who was in the Belmont Public
school system, another you know, considered to be a very
high performing school system, and it was not until her
child was i think in the third fourth grade when
she discovered that despite the fact that her child was
getting all e's and bs, that in fact the m
CAST scores showed a very different result. And the result
(17:13):
that the m CAST scores indicated is that her child
was not reading anywhere close to grade level. And so
how does a child get all e's and bees and
of a high performing school district when they can't read.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That is a question that every parent should be thinking
about because that disparity shows that the teachers are not
paying attention. That's what that shows to me, that the
teacher is whoever that teacher for that child was was
not paying attention or is inflating grades, which is also.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
And we know that especially since the pandemic, we know
that there has been an epidemic of grade inflation. There's
no question. But I want to be clear, Dan, we
are not properly preparing teachers. And this goes to our
system of higher education as well. That seventy percent of
the incredible schools that exist here in Massachusetts that are
(18:10):
training our future teachers are not training them how to
properly teach kids how to read, and so that is
part of the problem as well, and so we have
to address that. We have to make sure that all
of our teachers are not only learning and being prepared
for how to teach young children how to read, but
they've got that high quality instructional materials in their hands
(18:33):
and they know how to teach it. And so that
is a big part of what we need to make
sure happens.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's all fundamentals. Without the fundamentals, you can't build on anything.
We'll take a quick break. My guest is Mary Tamer.
She is part of the mass Reads Coalition that is
now supporting the Right to Read Act whether it's going
to get through or not, it's going to depend upon
whether the legislature wants to focus on the problem. If
you think there's no problem, feel free to give us
(19:00):
a call. Mary will dissuade you of that view. If
you think there is a problem, you can give us
a call and Mary might be able to tell you
how you can help out your child or help out
your school department, your your your educational department in your
community to improve reading scores for their students. Back on
Night Side, the only lines open right now six one, seven, two, four,
(19:21):
ten thirty. Back right after the news at the bottom
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WAZ Boston's
news Radio.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Well, my guess is, Mary Tamer, we're talking about the
Right to Read Act I. Is the teacher Union Are
they supporting this as well? Or where do they stand
on this? Because their voice is very important at Beacon Help.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So the one group that is opposing the bill, and
we're present at the hearing yesterday, is the Math Teachers Association.
So we have two teachers money in the mar.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Why Mary, Why am I not surprised?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's you know, the testimony to hear the testimony it.
You know, to have educators stand up in refute science
is a bit stunning. This is fifty years of research.
When we talk about what is referred to DAN as
the science of reading, we're talking about a body of
(20:25):
research that you know, is you know, is proven, is
believed is I mean, we had researchers testifying in favor
of the bill from Stanford, MI t Harvard bu, the
literacy labs at mass General Hospital, I mean, some of
the top literacy experts in the country talking about what
(20:49):
a game changer it is for schools when you use
the right you know, high quality research and evidence based materials.
And we know just New York City, you know, one
of the largest school districts in the entire country a
year ago made the switch to you know, to the
right stuff versus the wrong stuff. In one year, DAN,
(21:09):
they saw seven percentage point increase across the board in
reading scores. That's after one year. Imagine the gains you
can make after three years, after four years and so
and you know what was wonderful to see though yesterday,
is that so many of the members of the Joint
Committee on Education, especially our bill sponsors who are Senator
(21:32):
Suzi Domenico, Representative Dan Sena, and Representative Simon Cataldo, all
you know, testified in favor of the bill and were
and asked very good probing questions when the MTA leadership
spoke out against the bill.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And by the way, my criticism is of the MTA leadership,
it's not of the members. I know dozens of teachers
in Massachusetts who are dedicated. They their kids, They loved
their Stuy absolutely, particularly the younger teachers who are there.
You know, they're just they look forward to going back
to school. They almost don't want to take a summer vacation,
(22:11):
the teachers that are doing it. But once some of
these folks get into the leadership of the union, they
sort of locked the union down. And I don't think
that they represent the union on an issue like this.
But I don't want to get you in trouble with
those well, but.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
No, but I want to make it. But to your point, though, Dan,
we had three Massachusetts Teachers of the Year testify in
favor of the bill. We had the Massachusetts Principle of
the Year. We had incredible teachers. We had a teacher
who drove two hours from Cape cod to testify yesterday.
I mean, I cannot say. And they were so passionate
(22:50):
as they were talking about the change they saw in
their students when they started using the good curriculum, when
they started using the right materials in the right training,
and they, I mean, they were the best spokespeople for
this effort. I do not do the justice to this
cause that these teachers did for this bill yesterday. Absolutely
(23:12):
incredible and yes, and it was clear that their leadership
does not represent their views.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Okay, let's go to the Phone's going to start it
off with I got to get my right mouse here.
I had too many computers in front of me and
too many mouths here. Let me go to Maria in Plymouth. Maria,
you were first this hour with Mary Tamer, education advocate
supporting the Right to Read Act here in Massachusetts. Go
right ahead, Maria.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I'm Mary Dan. Hello. I just want to say that
I just wanted to say that my experience. I'm homeschooled
with my children, and my first one learned to read
from doctor Seuss. Wasn't really anything I did. Doctor Seuss's ABCS.
He's was founding out the letters and he just when
he was like three years old. So the next child.
(23:57):
I used a Phonic States program. All my kids learned
to read by second grade, the one who they all
learned in first day to read kindergarten, but by second
grade one of my kids had trouble and she it
took her a while longer, so she was in the
second grade by the time she learned to read. But
they all used phonics, and I tutored children in like phonics.
(24:20):
I tutored this one child who was absolutely shocked. She
was eight year old and she was she did not
know that there were rules to reading, simple rules that
made things so easy, and she was so smart. She
just caught on like lightning. It was just like crazy,
like she had no idea. She's like, why didn't they
(24:41):
teach me this?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, Marie, that it worked for your students, For your children,
I think the fact that you had to homeschool them,
I mean, Plymouth's a really nice community. Obviously you did
not have faith in the education. Well how many years
did you homeschool them? Are they still being homeschooled?
Speaker 4 (25:06):
No, we're done. My oldest is forty three now. But
I homeschool them for twenty three years because you know,
the youngest.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
But and I suspect they've all done very well for themselves.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, you know, they all want to go to college,
so they did, you know. But I'll say for myself,
I have a high school education. You don't have. It's
not rocket science to teach your kids to read. They
don't need the money spent on all this curriculum. There
is a book out there. I could tell you. It's
cost twenty bucks. Any parent could use it teach your
(25:39):
kids to read.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, what's the name of the book. What's the name
of the book.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Called The Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching your Child to Read.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Whether your kids are being homeschooled, whether they're in school,
that's not a bad investment.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
No, it isn't for twenty bucks. It's about twenty bucks,
or it was, you know when I had it. But yeah,
I think we spend a lot of money on you know,
if we just go back to what we had, give.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Us that book title one more time, Maria, so people
have had a chance to grab a piece of paper
and pencil.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Okay, it was the Ordinary It's the Ordinary Parent's Guide
to Teaching your Child to Read.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well, that's great, and I book.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
I have not and I you know, and I give
I give you so much credit for for educating your
children for twenty three years. That's that's amazing. I do
want to say though, that we you know, one of
the things that is now mandated in our public schools
is that children have to be screened twice a year
to see how they're doing and whether they're falling behind,
are they ahead of the curve, are they behind the curve.
(26:48):
And one of the things these screenings also flag though,
is if a child has any kind of language based
disability like dyslexia, and so that is something we had
a number of parents come yesterday who do have dyslexic children.
And then you know, there's a special curriculum called Orton Gillingham,
which is you know, used in something that works with
(27:09):
dyslexic children. So I just want to I'm thrilled that
this worked for you. I just want to acknowledge that
it doesn't necessary it wouldn't necessarily work for every parent
or every child. Whereas when we talk about everyone using
a research and evidence based curriculum, that is a tier
one intervention, and so that is the right way to
start for everyone. And so we just want to make
(27:31):
sure that every child and the vast majority of our
children are educated in public schools. We want to make
sure that all of the public schools in Massachusetts are
giving every kid a fighting chance to learn how to read,
and so that that is really what this bill is about.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
All right, thank you very much, Marie. I got to
get to a break, so I'm going to let you go.
Thanks so much for calling in.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Touch again. Thank you. H On the other side of
the break, we got Lawrence, did you make a plane in? Tom?
And Bright and you folks all said, if you'd like
to try to get through folks six one seven, four,
ten thirty, we will be changing topics at ten o'clock.
We'll try to get a couple more in beyond Lawrence
and Tom. They will be first and second up and
you can dial in six one seven, two five four,
(28:14):
ten thirty. We'll try to get you in as well.
Mary Tamer and my guest on a piece of legislation
called the Right to Read Act, and I think it
is it's needed here in Massachusetts. And Mary, we'll we'll
support you along the way in this one. I promise
coming back on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you Bzy Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Back to the calls we go. Let me go to Lawrence.
Did you make a play? Lawrence? Welcome next on Nightside read.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
I stayed on the phone so long waiting for you.
Is that the statement made by miss Tamer that fifty
still Disti's in the state to fine and sixty percent
do not do so fine A correctly assuming that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
By the way, Lawrence, Lawrence, it's going to help everybody
if you're able to turn down that radio, which I'm
sure is distracting to you, because I know it's distracting
to me. There's a radio in your in the room.
Could you just turn that down?
Speaker 5 (29:17):
I just shut it up.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Thank you. I know Rod Rob tells people to do it,
but some people forget. So thank you for doing that.
Go ahead, and Mary, is that what you said?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah? So, No, what I said was that fifty percent
of districts in Massachusetts are using research and evidence based curriculum.
They might have made the switch a year ago, they
might have made the switch a few years ago, and
fifty percent are not using what we would consider to
be high quality curriculum. So that is that is what
I said, Not that fifty percent are fine, and no,
(29:49):
most of a lot of our districts are struggling. And
I think the data is telling us and showing.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Us that actually and who is responsible for you is
learning to read in Massachusetts?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Well, if they're in the school that they are attending,
is responsible to teach them to read. But again, if
you're not using a high quality curriculum and if teachers
haven't been properly trained on how to teach children to.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Read, the governor that responsible.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Well, yeah, we're having trouble here in the lawrence, basically
there is a Secretary of Education that sets policy that
comes out of the governor's office. But obviously I think
parents have a role in that, guardians have a role
in that. All of us have a role in that.
And I think the points some that you raise the
good ones. But I'm having a tough time hearing you,
(30:47):
and I got to get to some other callers as well,
and I appreciate the amount of time that you waited.
Feel free to call the program any night. Okay, thanks Lawrence.
Let me go next, Tom and brighton. Tom want to
get you onto the wire here and maybe a couple
of more Go ahead, Tom, If Tom you ready Okay, well,
put Tom on Let's put Tom on hold. Rob, you've
(31:08):
got to tell these people to turn that radio down.
Let me go to Edward and Belmont. Edward, you're next
on nightside, Go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:15):
Yes, you've been talking about proper remediation curriculum, talking about
teaching the kids to read.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Teaching kids to read. You don't need remediation until they're
behind the eight ball. Go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:31):
Okay, So wouldn't wouldn't there be some sort of a
program in most schools after hours or on saturdays, or
perhaps at the library where students could beef up their
reading skills.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, there's probably programs like that. But what Mary is
saying is that basically, from the first day in September,
the program should be in place. The best program should
be in place so that as many kids as possible
can can accomplish what they need to accomplish Monday through Friday,
from you know, eight o'clock in the morning until when
they dismissed in the afternoon. Obviously, having some additional help
(32:07):
for tutors or or local college students or after school
programs absolutely a part of it as well.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
And the stage just made a twenty five million dollar
investment in what is called high dosage tutoring, and that
is going to be targeting students at elementary schools, in
most specifically first graders to help kids, you know, either
regain skills that they weren't you know, taught in the
first place, or reinforced skills. So that's a step in
(32:37):
the right direction. But I want to be clear that
as Dan just said, though, that that is that's not
the cure. That's an intervention. But using the right instructional
materials and tactics to teach children to read is what
the cure looks like.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Edward, thank you for the question. I got two. I
got two more folks who at one of whom I
got to get back to because he waited thirty minutes.
So I thank you for the question, but I got
to get to other folks as well. Thank you, Edward.
Let me go to Tom and Brighton. Tom, I hope
you're there right now, Go right ahead, Tom, Okay, hear me,
We can hear you. Just fine. What's your comment A question? Tom?
(33:13):
All right?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Jed Dactor, how are you.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
She's not a doctor? I do not believe it. Maybe
she is, but she's an educator. So go ahead, Tom,
wasting some time here, we're twenty seconds. If we're running
out of time, what is your question? What's your what?
What's your call? What's your question?
Speaker 4 (33:30):
What's you It's gonna take a lot longer, so I'll well.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Great, Okay, Tom, thanks very much. That was very helpful.
Let me go to Nikita in Malden.
Speaker 7 (33:38):
Wow, Nikita, welcome next to thank you for taking my clotan.
I think it's a good idea and I agree with
that idea of having a high dose, high dosage literature
reading programs in the scores, But where I'm coming from,
I think we need also to have a learning a
literary environment in the homes. Kids did to see more parents,
(34:01):
more families, more reading in their immediate environment. So that's
that's why that's what I like to propose. I like
to propose a cold program where you will have more
pr public service and not been for reading or kids
will see reading what they will see adults reading. So
I don't think there's enough reading, you know, with your Tube,
with Netflix, with all the social media's, children are not
(34:22):
seeing reading in the immediate environment.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
So Nikita is a friend of mine Mary, and she
thinks like I do, and she's just as articulated, has
articulated what I believe is with all these kids dealing
with you know, TikTok, and all the time they spend
in front of their phone in their computer, they don't
have time to read anymore. They only read the stuff
with pictures and soundbites from celebrities. Please respond to what
(34:48):
Nikita said, I'm sure I need.
Speaker 7 (34:50):
To focus on reading, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
You know, I think we could probably say the same
about many adults to Nikita. But yes, I know a
lot of schools now are you know, doing cell phone
bans and districts are banning cell phones, and you know,
and it is a distraction, there's no question about it.
But I think again, when we're talking about our youngest learners,
and we're talking about the kind of instruction they're getting
(35:13):
when they're five years old or some some of our
districts have four year olds programs, and so it's really
like at that earliest educational experiences, are we giving them
the foundational building blocks they need to learn how to read,
to sound out letters, to sound out words, and so,
you know, for as much as I I'm no fan
of social media, so for as much as I would
(35:35):
love to blame it all on that. It really is,
there's there's more to it. There really is more to it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, Nijita, thank you so much for your call. As always,
you are also a voice of reason. Thanks Nikata, we'll
talk soon. Did I lose Niketa there? Thank you, Nicata?
I'm sorry. So how can folks support your cause? Here? Mary?
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
What can what can call to action? What can people do?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah? Well we our website is mass reads so just
like it sounds m A S SRI A d s
dot org, and people can if there's a there's a
button you can click. It says join the effort. And
we are, you know, large coalition and growing. We've got
over thirty five groups across the state, everyone from Decoding Dyslexia,
(36:25):
the Reading League of Massachusetts, Headstart Massachusetts Jumpstart, I mean,
all of these incredible organizations that are part of this effort,
not to mention a whole slew of other educational organizations
like my own, Latinos for Education, Educators for Excellence, Teach,
plus the Education Trust, but individuals as well. So we
(36:49):
we are, you know, it's a grassroots effort. We need
every voice, every person who wants to be part of
it is welcome to join because it is It's not
easy to pass the bill in Massachusetts. But we really
really are feeling extremely hopeful and optimistic because I do
believe that everyone at the State House wants to ensure
that all of our children learn how to read. And
(37:10):
when I visit folks at the State House Dan and
I present them with their data, I think people are
really stunned when they see it in black and white
right in front of them, and they see how low
the reading levels are. And I do think people are
deeply concerned about this. So we are just going to
keep pushing away and making sure that we're going to
do the right thing by kids here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Well, we're with you all the way. Mary, keep us posted.
It's mass Reads m assr eads dot org. Let us
keep in touch on this one, Mary, because this is
what I feel strongly about.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Thank you so much, Thank you, Thank you Dan. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
When we come back, we're going to change topics. Stay
with us. Here comes the news. We'll be back in
about five
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WVS, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you very much, Dan Watkins. As we move into
our talk show element of the program, where people are
more than welcome to join the conversation on different topics,
and the first topic tonight deals with the ability of
young people's students as young as third grade to read
(00:29):
and these statistics that we are seeing here in Massachusetts. Again,
I'd like to remind people we live in Massachusetts. We
do not live in a state that is not spending
a lot of money on public education, and not in
also a state that obviously has lots of colleges and universities,
and I wonder if they might not be able to help.
(00:53):
But but before we get to all of those theories,
some of which I strong believe in, there's a coalition.
It's called the Mass Reads Coalition m ASS for Massachusetts
Reads Coalition. UH. They have decided to support a piece
of legislation called the Right to Read Act. And with
(01:14):
us is Mary Tamer. Mary is a former Boston School
Committee member. She's the executive director of a group called
mass Potential, which I assume is supportive of this act.
So let's first of all get to know our guest
a little bit. Welcome back to nightside. Mary. It's been
too long.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
How are you it has Dan, It's great to hear
your voice. Nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Right back at you. Just your background. You you are
an educator by instinct and by and by profession. Just
refresh the recollection of my audience as to how deeply
you were committed to improving the educational standards here in
Massachusetts and giving kids a better the best education they
(01:58):
can get in Massachusetts schools.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Sure well, like you, Dan, I was very fortunate to
go through the Boston public schools, including Boston Latin School
and so and that was just.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I was there in the last century. You got out
many years after me, just a.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Few years after you, But it was I think we
both know though that we were incredibly fortunate to be
given such a rich educational experience as kids in Boston.
And you know, things have changed, unfortunately quite dramatically, and
whether we look at the statewide data or the data
in the city of Boston, it's a very different dynamic.
(02:41):
But I've been actively involved, not an educator, but longtime
educational advocate, educational policy maker, and work on the policy
and advocacy side of the work now, But as you mentioned,
I did serve on the school Committee under Meyrminino for
the entire four years of my term. I was the
only person on the committee who had two children enrolled
(03:04):
in the Boston public schools, and but have worked at
the Harvard Graduate School of Education, which is where I
received my master's in Education Policy and Management. Longtime tutor
actually used to tutor children struggling to learn how to
read in the Boston public schools. So I certainly have
been on the scene for a number of years now,
(03:25):
and I'm just very committed to making sure, given the
investments that we do make in education here in Massachusetts,
that we are giving children the best educational opportunity that
they should be receiving and that they deserve to receive.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well, the thing that has always struck me, and again
I use the word educator towards you, not necessarily meaning
you're a classroom teacher, but somebody who's just been immersed
in the entire conversation for most of not all, of
your career in some form of capacity. It's funny you
mentioned the tutoring program in Boston. It just seems to
me that One of the great benefits we have in
(04:01):
Boston are the colleges and the universities and you know BCBU,
Harvett and my t I know they're across the river,
but they're only a trolley or you know, an MBTA
car away Suffolk, Northeastern and Emerson. And I just wonder
if the city of Boston shouldn't take more advantage of
some of these these undergraduate and graduate students who could
(04:22):
help tutor kids. But we'll get to that. That's some
of my theories in a moment. How bad are the
numbers right now? And what are we what are we
looking at? And do parents really understand that right now
the numbers are going in the wrong direction. And it's
not just because as I understand that because of the
five year COVID interruption.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That's that's correct. I know a lot of folks like
to say this is because of COVID, But when we
look at our data, Dan, and you know for over
you know, more than twelve years now, and whether it's
the NAPE scores, which are national scores, or looking at
our MCAST scores, we've been on a clients for more
than a dozen years. Now Here in Massachusetts and so
(05:04):
it seems that, you know, the narrative, we always hear
we're number one, we're number one. But when you look
at this data and statewide right now, for our third graders,
only four in ten are reading on grade level, so
forty percent are reading on grade level and sixty percent
or not. And when we break down that data further,
(05:26):
when you're talking about our low income students, that's only
twenty four percent of those same students are reading on
grade level. Our students with disabilities fourteen percent, English learners,
ten percent. Black students are twenty seven percent. Latino students
are twenty two percent. And so these are alarming figures.
(05:48):
When you look, you know, at a city like Boston,
you know the numbers are even worse. And so when
we look at it's more like three in ten or
two intents are reading on grade level. And when you
consider that the majority of the students in the Boston
public schools are black and brown, when we look at
black and brown reading outcome, black and brown students and
(06:11):
they're reading outcomes, and this is across grades three through eight,
DAN only seventeen percent are reading proficiently seventeen percent. So
imagine being an eighth grader, and you're only seventeen percent
of those kids. Actually, by eighth grade, it's only fifteen
percent of kids are reading on grade level. Imagine going
(06:31):
into high school and how are you ever going to
be able to comprehend a biology textbook, a ninth grade
history textbook if you're four or five grade levels behind
where you should be.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, So there's a million questions that just popped up
in my head. I wonder if the whole concept of
social promotion, which is very few students are ever held back.
And when I was in elementary school, I wasn't in
the Boston public school. I was in a religious school
of Catholic school. Friends of mine got held back and
(07:08):
it wasn't perceived as a punishment. It was perceived as
an ability for them to catch up, you know, based
upon where they were at some point. Are kids ever
held back academically in the you were in the school committee, Yes, yes,
they ever held back.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You can be in Massachusetts. You can be held back once,
and so I think many years ago you could be
held back more than once. But now a child can
be retained once and so the issue of social promotion
is real, and I think you could talk to a
number of principals, high school principles, who will tell you
(07:46):
about the ninth graders who arrive, you know, on their
campuses and these students are not ready and oftentimes nowhere
near ready to do ninth grade work.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what happens to that student who is not I
ney to do ninth great work? He or she is
overwhelmed and they do check out. I mean.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
It's even earlier than that, though, jan And if you
had benefit, you know, the State House yesterday we had
over sixty people show up to testify. We had our
bills hearing before the Joint Committee on Education. We heard
some heartbreaking stories from families who talked about just the
absolute desperation of their children who were not reading in third, fourth,
(08:28):
or fifth grade and what that drove the children to.
Whether it was suicidality, just feeling absolutely hopeless, feeling that
they were unable to learn. I mean it is did
the negative internal messages that children give themselves when they
are not able to keep up with their peers in class,
(08:49):
when they they see everyone else understanding something that they're
not understanding. And this is why our bill would mandate
research and evidence based instruction and that is what is
consistently lacking DAN in the districts that we see where
children are doing so poorly. They they do not have
the access to the high quality instructional materials that they
(09:12):
need and deserve. And that's the same for the teachers.
To only a third of teachers in Massachusetts have access
to high quality instructional materials, and so we are putting
our teachers and our students at a disadvantage by not
providing them with what forty two other states, Just to
be clear, forty two other states have passed a bill
(09:32):
similar to our bill to say either they've passed a
bill or regulations to say we will mandate research and
evidence based instruction and we will no longer allow schools
and school districts to use materials that have been debunked
by science and research.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, we have so much to cover. Let me give
the phone number. Well, take a break, six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty.
I also want to drill down a little bit, because
there's so much materials that you've covered here in the
first ten or twelve minutes, and I don't want people
to be to be intimidated. But what I want them
(10:11):
to do is to join the conversation. I want to know. Obviously,
a lot of the urban schools, I think you focused
on Boston a lot, they're not doing well, and a
part of that is the economic strata of poverty, et cetera.
But some people will say, well, our school district is
doing great, or our school district in central Massachusetts or
(10:32):
in western Massachusetts. I want to focus it also from
a state wide point of view as well, So I
want to incorporate everyone in this conversation. If you'd like
to join the conversation, you'd have the numbers. We'll be
right back on Night's side with Mary tamer From, a
Boston School Committee member many years, an educational advocate and
(10:52):
in my opinion, an educator, and she is with her organization.
She's the executive director of Potential, and that's one of
the groups that is joined the Mass Reads Coalition in
support of the Right to Read Act. I know it
can sound a little cumbersome, but trust me, all they
trying to do is get kids in a better position
(11:13):
to deal with the world that not only are they
going to have to deal with for the next fifty
or sixty years. But if they count, if they can't
deal that, they will not be contributing to society. They
will be drawing down on society. And those of us
who are a little older and retiring, they are the
people who are going to support us in our retirement years.
(11:34):
So everybody has skin in the game. Coming back on
Night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you
Boston's News Radio with me.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
My guest is Mary Tamers. So Mary, let's look at
that general question real quickly, and that is obviously Boston
has some problems. We know that, okay, as many major
cities do. But how are the other school districts are
around the state. I'm not looking for the best of
(12:06):
the worst, but generally suburban school districts, for rural school
school districts, they doing well well.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
That's one of the things that's been I think most
surprising Dan about this is that the suburban districts are
frankly not doing that well. And as we heard from
many parents who testified yesterday who were representing the suburbs.
We had parents from Lexington need them like these are
two communities that are considered to have some of the
best school districts in the state, and both of those
(12:38):
districts are using curriculum that is not research and evidence space.
So it's considered low quality, it's considered debunked. And so
what we heard is that their numbers might look relatively
good from an outsider's perspective, but that's because so many
of the families in these communities can pay significant sums
(13:01):
of money to have their children privately tutored at home.
And so we had parent after parent yesterday talking about,
you know, being told, oh, you know, they're no, there's
nothing you know, there's nothing wrong, your child's doing fine.
And then the parents are realizing their children can't read
and they're having to hire private tutors. But you will
see significant gaps. And how how we can really point
(13:23):
to this is you know, thirty forty percentage point gaps
between the low income students and everyone else. And so
that really is a signal. And we've had so many
parents that are supporting the spill, whether they're parents of
children who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, whether they are
parents whose children just have not been properly taught how
(13:45):
to read with the right high quality materials. These folks
are frustrated, they're angry, and it's it's you know, when
our schools are not doing the most foundational thing that
they were intended to do, which to teach our children
to read, it's incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So what would this piece of legislation purport to do if,
in the infinite wisdom of the Great in General Coote,
it would to be passed.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So right now, districts, can you know, we are a state,
like many other states, that operate under a system of
local control. So individual school districts right now can pick
whatever curriculum they would like, whether it's high quality or not.
And about fifty percent of our districts are using high
quality materials and research and evidence based instruction. The other
(14:38):
fifty percent or not. And so what this bill would do,
and again in line with what forty two other states
have done, is to put a mandate in place. Now,
a mandate does not mean that everyone has to use
the same curriculum. It just means that you have to
use as a district leader, that you have to select
a curriculum that is considered under the state guide lines
(15:00):
as h q I AM or high quality instructional material.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Okay, it sounds very reasonable to me. One of the
things I think is that they should give every kid
at the age of two, or give the parent of
every kid hooked on phonics, because I think that, you know,
that's what my kids used, and they always were way
(15:25):
ahead of the curve in terms of reading ability and
my understanding from and you know more about this than
I do that where you are in the third grade
at reading ability, if you're behind, you are truly behind
the eight ball, potentially for life. If you are ahead of,
it's one of those points that you've got to be
(15:46):
aware of if you're a parent, because it says so
much about it does.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, it predicts.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
In the minute we have left before the news, in
the minute we have left before the news break, and
then we're going to go to phone calls after the
news break, explain what I just said to the audience
so they they don't understand it better from you go ahead.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Third grade is the year when students transition from learning
how to read to reading to learn, and so when
they are not at grade level by that third grade year,
there is significant research that tells us and that to
your point, there are dire outcomes. You are far less
likely to graduate from high school to have a vibrant
(16:28):
economic future. Unfortunately, your risk of incarceration goes up when
you're not reading on grade level by third grade. And
so there's lots of things that should concern anyone and
the fact that a lot of parents are not aware
of this, are not necessarily being told that their children
are struggling in school. There is one parent that is
(16:52):
part of our coalition who was in the Belmont Public
school system, another you know, considered to be a very
high performing school system, and it was not until her
child was i think in the third fourth grade when
she discovered that despite the fact that her child was
getting all e's and bs, that in fact the m
CAST scores showed a very different result. And the result
(17:13):
that the m CAST scores indicated is that her child
was not reading anywhere close to grade level. And so
how does a child get all e's and bees and
of a high performing school district when they can't read.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That is a question that every parent should be thinking
about because that disparity shows that the teachers are not
paying attention. That's what that shows to me, that the
teacher is whoever that teacher for that child was was
not paying attention or is inflating grades, which is also.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
And we know that especially since the pandemic, we know
that there has been an epidemic of grade inflation. There's
no question. But I want to be clear, Dan, we
are not properly preparing teachers. And this goes to our
system of higher education as well. That seventy percent of
the incredible schools that exist here in Massachusetts that are
(18:10):
training our future teachers are not training them how to
properly teach kids how to read, and so that is
part of the problem as well, and so we have
to address that. We have to make sure that all
of our teachers are not only learning and being prepared
for how to teach young children how to read, but
they've got that high quality instructional materials in their hands
(18:33):
and they know how to teach it. And so that
is a big part of what we need to make
sure happens.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's all fundamentals. Without the fundamentals, you can't build on anything.
We'll take a quick break. My guest is Mary Tamer.
She is part of the mass Reads Coalition that is
now supporting the Right to Read Act whether it's going
to get through or not, it's going to depend upon
whether the legislature wants to focus on the problem. If
you think there's no problem, feel free to give us
(19:00):
a call. Mary will dissuade you of that view. If
you think there is a problem, you can give us
a call and Mary might be able to tell you
how you can help out your child or help out
your school department, your your your educational department in your
community to improve reading scores for their students. Back on
Night Side, the only lines open right now six one, seven, two, four,
(19:21):
ten thirty. Back right after the news at the bottom
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WAZ Boston's
news Radio.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Well, my guess is, Mary Tamer, we're talking about the
Right to Read Act I. Is the teacher Union Are
they supporting this as well? Or where do they stand
on this? Because their voice is very important at Beacon Help.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So the one group that is opposing the bill, and
we're present at the hearing yesterday, is the Math Teachers Association.
So we have two teachers money in the mar.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Why Mary, Why am I not surprised?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's you know, the testimony to hear the testimony it.
You know, to have educators stand up in refute science
is a bit stunning. This is fifty years of research.
When we talk about what is referred to DAN as
the science of reading, we're talking about a body of
(20:25):
research that you know, is you know, is proven, is
believed is I mean, we had researchers testifying in favor
of the bill from Stanford, MI t Harvard bu, the
literacy labs at mass General Hospital, I mean, some of
the top literacy experts in the country talking about what
(20:49):
a game changer it is for schools when you use
the right you know, high quality research and evidence based materials.
And we know just New York City, you know, one
of the largest school districts in the entire country a
year ago made the switch to you know, to the
right stuff versus the wrong stuff. In one year, DAN,
(21:09):
they saw seven percentage point increase across the board in
reading scores. That's after one year. Imagine the gains you
can make after three years, after four years and so
and you know what was wonderful to see though yesterday,
is that so many of the members of the Joint
Committee on Education, especially our bill sponsors who are Senator
(21:32):
Suzi Domenico, Representative Dan Sena, and Representative Simon Cataldo, all
you know, testified in favor of the bill and were
and asked very good probing questions when the MTA leadership
spoke out against the bill.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And by the way, my criticism is of the MTA leadership,
it's not of the members. I know dozens of teachers
in Massachusetts who are dedicated. They their kids, They loved
their Stuy absolutely, particularly the younger teachers who are there.
You know, they're just they look forward to going back
to school. They almost don't want to take a summer vacation,
(22:11):
the teachers that are doing it. But once some of
these folks get into the leadership of the union, they
sort of locked the union down. And I don't think
that they represent the union on an issue like this.
But I don't want to get you in trouble with
those well, but.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
No, but I want to make it. But to your point, though, Dan,
we had three Massachusetts Teachers of the Year testify in
favor of the bill. We had the Massachusetts Principle of
the Year. We had incredible teachers. We had a teacher
who drove two hours from Cape cod to testify yesterday.
I mean, I cannot say. And they were so passionate
(22:50):
as they were talking about the change they saw in
their students when they started using the good curriculum, when
they started using the right materials in the right training,
and they, I mean, they were the best spokespeople for
this effort. I do not do the justice to this
cause that these teachers did for this bill yesterday. Absolutely
(23:12):
incredible and yes, and it was clear that their leadership
does not represent their views.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Okay, let's go to the Phone's going to start it
off with I got to get my right mouse here.
I had too many computers in front of me and
too many mouths here. Let me go to Maria in Plymouth. Maria,
you were first this hour with Mary Tamer, education advocate
supporting the Right to Read Act here in Massachusetts. Go
right ahead, Maria.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I'm Mary Dan. Hello. I just want to say that
I just wanted to say that my experience. I'm homeschooled
with my children, and my first one learned to read
from doctor Seuss. Wasn't really anything I did. Doctor Seuss's ABCS.
He's was founding out the letters and he just when
he was like three years old. So the next child.
(23:57):
I used a Phonic States program. All my kids learned
to read by second grade, the one who they all
learned in first day to read kindergarten, but by second
grade one of my kids had trouble and she it
took her a while longer, so she was in the
second grade by the time she learned to read. But
they all used phonics, and I tutored children in like phonics.
(24:20):
I tutored this one child who was absolutely shocked. She
was eight year old and she was she did not
know that there were rules to reading, simple rules that
made things so easy, and she was so smart. She
just caught on like lightning. It was just like crazy,
like she had no idea. She's like, why didn't they
(24:41):
teach me this?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, Marie, that it worked for your students, For your children,
I think the fact that you had to homeschool them,
I mean, Plymouth's a really nice community. Obviously you did
not have faith in the education. Well how many years
did you homeschool them? Are they still being homeschooled?
Speaker 4 (25:06):
No, we're done. My oldest is forty three now. But
I homeschool them for twenty three years because you know,
the youngest.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
But and I suspect they've all done very well for themselves.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, you know, they all want to go to college,
so they did, you know. But I'll say for myself,
I have a high school education. You don't have. It's
not rocket science to teach your kids to read. They
don't need the money spent on all this curriculum. There
is a book out there. I could tell you. It's
cost twenty bucks. Any parent could use it teach your
(25:39):
kids to read.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, what's the name of the book. What's the name
of the book.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Called The Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching your Child to Read.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Whether your kids are being homeschooled, whether they're in school,
that's not a bad investment.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
No, it isn't for twenty bucks. It's about twenty bucks,
or it was, you know when I had it. But yeah,
I think we spend a lot of money on you know,
if we just go back to what we had, give.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Us that book title one more time, Maria, so people
have had a chance to grab a piece of paper
and pencil.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Okay, it was the Ordinary It's the Ordinary Parent's Guide
to Teaching your Child to Read.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well, that's great, and I book.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
I have not and I you know, and I give
I give you so much credit for for educating your
children for twenty three years. That's that's amazing. I do
want to say though, that we you know, one of
the things that is now mandated in our public schools
is that children have to be screened twice a year
to see how they're doing and whether they're falling behind,
are they ahead of the curve, are they behind the curve.
(26:48):
And one of the things these screenings also flag though,
is if a child has any kind of language based
disability like dyslexia, and so that is something we had
a number of parents come yesterday who do have dyslexic children.
And then you know, there's a special curriculum called Orton Gillingham,
which is you know, used in something that works with
(27:09):
dyslexic children. So I just want to I'm thrilled that
this worked for you. I just want to acknowledge that
it doesn't necessary it wouldn't necessarily work for every parent
or every child. Whereas when we talk about everyone using
a research and evidence based curriculum, that is a tier
one intervention, and so that is the right way to
start for everyone. And so we just want to make
(27:31):
sure that every child and the vast majority of our
children are educated in public schools. We want to make
sure that all of the public schools in Massachusetts are
giving every kid a fighting chance to learn how to read,
and so that that is really what this bill is about.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
All right, thank you very much, Marie. I got to
get to a break, so I'm going to let you go.
Thanks so much for calling in.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Touch again. Thank you. H On the other side of
the break, we got Lawrence, did you make a plane in? Tom?
And Bright and you folks all said, if you'd like
to try to get through folks six one seven, four,
ten thirty, we will be changing topics at ten o'clock.
We'll try to get a couple more in beyond Lawrence
and Tom. They will be first and second up and
you can dial in six one seven, two five four,
(28:14):
ten thirty. We'll try to get you in as well.
Mary Tamer and my guest on a piece of legislation
called the Right to Read Act, and I think it
is it's needed here in Massachusetts. And Mary, we'll we'll
support you along the way in this one. I promise
coming back on Nightside right after this.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you Bzy Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Back to the calls we go. Let me go to Lawrence.
Did you make a play? Lawrence? Welcome next on Nightside read.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
I stayed on the phone so long waiting for you.
Is that the statement made by miss Tamer that fifty
still Disti's in the state to fine and sixty percent
do not do so fine A correctly assuming that.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
By the way, Lawrence, Lawrence, it's going to help everybody
if you're able to turn down that radio, which I'm
sure is distracting to you, because I know it's distracting
to me. There's a radio in your in the room.
Could you just turn that down?
Speaker 5 (29:17):
I just shut it up.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Thank you. I know Rod Rob tells people to do it,
but some people forget. So thank you for doing that.
Go ahead, and Mary, is that what you said?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah? So, No, what I said was that fifty percent
of districts in Massachusetts are using research and evidence based curriculum.
They might have made the switch a year ago, they
might have made the switch a few years ago, and
fifty percent are not using what we would consider to
be high quality curriculum. So that is that is what
I said, Not that fifty percent are fine, and no,
(29:49):
most of a lot of our districts are struggling. And
I think the data is telling us and showing.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Us that actually and who is responsible for you is
learning to read in Massachusetts?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Well, if they're in the school that they are attending,
is responsible to teach them to read. But again, if
you're not using a high quality curriculum and if teachers
haven't been properly trained on how to teach children to.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Read, the governor that responsible.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Well, yeah, we're having trouble here in the lawrence, basically
there is a Secretary of Education that sets policy that
comes out of the governor's office. But obviously I think
parents have a role in that, guardians have a role
in that. All of us have a role in that.
And I think the points some that you raise the
good ones. But I'm having a tough time hearing you,
(30:47):
and I got to get to some other callers as well,
and I appreciate the amount of time that you waited.
Feel free to call the program any night. Okay, thanks Lawrence.
Let me go next, Tom and brighton. Tom want to
get you onto the wire here and maybe a couple
of more Go ahead, Tom, If Tom you ready Okay, well,
put Tom on Let's put Tom on hold. Rob, you've
(31:08):
got to tell these people to turn that radio down.
Let me go to Edward and Belmont. Edward, you're next
on nightside, Go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:15):
Yes, you've been talking about proper remediation curriculum, talking about
teaching the kids to read.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Teaching kids to read. You don't need remediation until they're
behind the eight ball. Go right ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:31):
Okay, So wouldn't wouldn't there be some sort of a
program in most schools after hours or on saturdays, or
perhaps at the library where students could beef up their
reading skills.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, there's probably programs like that. But what Mary is
saying is that basically, from the first day in September,
the program should be in place. The best program should
be in place so that as many kids as possible
can can accomplish what they need to accomplish Monday through Friday,
from you know, eight o'clock in the morning until when
they dismissed in the afternoon. Obviously, having some additional help
(32:07):
for tutors or or local college students or after school
programs absolutely a part of it as well.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
And the stage just made a twenty five million dollar
investment in what is called high dosage tutoring, and that
is going to be targeting students at elementary schools, in
most specifically first graders to help kids, you know, either
regain skills that they weren't you know, taught in the
first place, or reinforced skills. So that's a step in
(32:37):
the right direction. But I want to be clear that
as Dan just said, though, that that is that's not
the cure. That's an intervention. But using the right instructional
materials and tactics to teach children to read is what
the cure looks like.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Edward, thank you for the question. I got two. I
got two more folks who at one of whom I
got to get back to because he waited thirty minutes.
So I thank you for the question, but I got
to get to other folks as well. Thank you, Edward.
Let me go to Tom and Brighton. Tom, I hope
you're there right now, Go right ahead, Tom, Okay, hear me,
We can hear you. Just fine. What's your comment A question? Tom?
(33:13):
All right?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Jed Dactor, how are you.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
She's not a doctor? I do not believe it. Maybe
she is, but she's an educator. So go ahead, Tom,
wasting some time here, we're twenty seconds. If we're running
out of time, what is your question? What's your what?
What's your call? What's your question?
Speaker 4 (33:30):
What's you It's gonna take a lot longer, so I'll well.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Great, Okay, Tom, thanks very much. That was very helpful.
Let me go to Nikita in Malden.
Speaker 7 (33:38):
Wow, Nikita, welcome next to thank you for taking my clotan.
I think it's a good idea and I agree with
that idea of having a high dose, high dosage literature
reading programs in the scores, But where I'm coming from,
I think we need also to have a learning a
literary environment in the homes. Kids did to see more parents,
(34:01):
more families, more reading in their immediate environment. So that's
that's why that's what I like to propose. I like
to propose a cold program where you will have more
pr public service and not been for reading or kids
will see reading what they will see adults reading. So
I don't think there's enough reading, you know, with your Tube,
with Netflix, with all the social media's, children are not
(34:22):
seeing reading in the immediate environment.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
So Nikita is a friend of mine Mary, and she
thinks like I do, and she's just as articulated, has
articulated what I believe is with all these kids dealing
with you know, TikTok, and all the time they spend
in front of their phone in their computer, they don't
have time to read anymore. They only read the stuff
with pictures and soundbites from celebrities. Please respond to what
(34:48):
Nikita said, I'm sure I need.
Speaker 7 (34:50):
To focus on reading, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
You know, I think we could probably say the same
about many adults to Nikita. But yes, I know a
lot of schools now are you know, doing cell phone
bans and districts are banning cell phones, and you know,
and it is a distraction, there's no question about it.
But I think again, when we're talking about our youngest learners,
and we're talking about the kind of instruction they're getting
(35:13):
when they're five years old or some some of our
districts have four year olds programs, and so it's really
like at that earliest educational experiences, are we giving them
the foundational building blocks they need to learn how to read,
to sound out letters, to sound out words, and so,
you know, for as much as I I'm no fan
of social media, so for as much as I would
(35:35):
love to blame it all on that. It really is,
there's there's more to it. There really is more to it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, Nijita, thank you so much for your call. As always,
you are also a voice of reason. Thanks Nikata, we'll
talk soon. Did I lose Niketa there? Thank you, Nicata?
I'm sorry. So how can folks support your cause? Here? Mary?
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
What can what can call to action? What can people do?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah? Well we our website is mass reads so just
like it sounds m A S SRI A d s
dot org, and people can if there's a there's a
button you can click. It says join the effort. And
we are, you know, large coalition and growing. We've got
over thirty five groups across the state, everyone from Decoding Dyslexia,
(36:25):
the Reading League of Massachusetts, Headstart Massachusetts Jumpstart, I mean,
all of these incredible organizations that are part of this effort,
not to mention a whole slew of other educational organizations
like my own, Latinos for Education, Educators for Excellence, Teach,
plus the Education Trust, but individuals as well. So we
(36:49):
we are, you know, it's a grassroots effort. We need
every voice, every person who wants to be part of
it is welcome to join because it is It's not
easy to pass the bill in Massachusetts. But we really
really are feeling extremely hopeful and optimistic because I do
believe that everyone at the State House wants to ensure
that all of our children learn how to read. And
(37:10):
when I visit folks at the State House Dan and
I present them with their data, I think people are
really stunned when they see it in black and white
right in front of them, and they see how low
the reading levels are. And I do think people are
deeply concerned about this. So we are just going to
keep pushing away and making sure that we're going to
do the right thing by kids here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Well, we're with you all the way. Mary, keep us posted.
It's mass Reads m assr eads dot org. Let us
keep in touch on this one, Mary, because this is
what I feel strongly about.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Thank you so much, Thank you, Thank you Dan. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
When we come back, we're going to change topics. Stay
with us. Here comes the news. We'll be back in
about five
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.