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August 3, 2024 18 mins

Former All Black Sam Whitelock is reflecting on the ups and downs of rugby in his new book. 

Samuel Whitelock: View from the Second Row, Whitelock looks back on a sports career filled with achievements - and hidden costs.

Listen to his full chat with Piney here today.

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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zed B.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
One of the greatest rugby players ever to play the game,
five and.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Arriving touchline side back to the open left.

Speaker 4 (00:19):
Rynan callaher midway point, Satim and Cologne. Look Sam, it's
a Pata ray for the All Blacks Semifinals day head
egg for the Semifinals. Nearly forty fasites Beta fans.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Now one of the most famous steals in All Blacks
rugby history. Rugby World Cup quarterfinal against Ireland last year.
Having debut for the All Blacks at the age of
twenty one, Sam Whitelock last year became the first and
so far the only All Black to reach one hundred
and fifty test caps. He finished on one hundred and
fifty three, the second highest by any international player, and

(00:58):
he captained the All Blacks in eighteen of those test matches.
He played twenty six Rugby World Cup games, more than
any other player, and appeared to three Rugby World Cup finals.
He's won eleven Try Nations Championships and never been in
an All Black side that relinquished the Bledisloe Cup. He
also played one hundred and eighty one times for the Crusaders,

(01:20):
winning seven Super Rugby titles. Samuel Whitelock's autobiography is out.
It's called View from the Second Row. Samuel white Lock
is with us. Great to chat to you, Sam. How
happy are you with the way the books come out?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah? Really happy. You know a lot of time and
if it went into it, obviously went through it like
you know, with a fine tooth co and making sure
there was nothing in there that wasn't correct or wasn't
my true feelings. So it took a bit of time
to do the interviews with Dylan, but also so much
time to reread it and make sure everything was where

(01:53):
I wanted it to be.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
It's a terrific greed. I enjoyed it very much, not
just the rugby stuff, but a lot of the formative
stuff as well. How much of the person you are
today and the rugby player became can be put down
to your upbringing.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah. The upbringing is definitely the big part of it,
and that's something that I definitely wanted to have shined
through in the book. And the main thing is having
four boys under five years on a dairy farm and
the men or two. That's going to cause chaos, and
it's going to be full on and there's going to
be tears, there's going to be cuts and bruises and
a bit of blood here and there. So I wanted
to make sure that people understood that's, you know, what

(02:33):
my upbringing was, and that's hopefully come through in the book.
There's a few photos there of us growing up and
me being the tall, skinny kid. So there's a couple
of photos there, probably not the most glamorous, but that's
just what it was, so true representation of being a
country kid in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I think that's what a lot of people enjoy when
they read books about people they've only ever seen it,
you know, at the adult stage of their lives, seeing
what was what a tam you're white look look like
as a kid. Some great haircuts, mate.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, there's my hair's falling out now. But back in
the day, I used to love having their bowl cut.
I think it was called I had had the longer here.
My older brother loves shaving off before I went to
boarding school. So I think mum's actually got a bit
of it at home somewhere, which sounds a bit creepy,
but she couldn't give up the long hair.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
When did rugby become something that really moved to the
center of your life? All close to the center of
your life.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah, Rugby's always been a part of myself and the family.
So I do not remember a time where Rugby's not
you know, in the conversation, whether that's when we were younger,
when we're older, even now. No matter whenever we catch
up with any family members, whether it's mom and dad
or a brother or sister in law, Rugby always, you know,
is there in the conversation. So it's always been a

(03:57):
massive part of our lives. But I think when rugby
became a possibility to be, you know, make a living
out of it during that seventeen eighteen nineteen and even
now thinking about it, there's no way I thought I'd
be able to play a professional games. So to be
able to achieve what we've achieved, and now that I'm
retired at actual's sitting back and assessing and looking and

(04:19):
reflecting a little bit. It's ass very humbling to know
that had such an amazing career.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I think throughout your test career, you know, when you
reached miles stones and there were a lot of them
near the end in terms of you know, test appearance
records and things like that. I think often your answer was, look,
it's not the sort of thing I can think about now.
I'll look back when I'm done and probably enjoy it more.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Then.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Now that you are well, I guess, well, maybe done.
Are you able to look back with a certain degree
of pride at what you achieved?

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah, there's It's weird because you know, there's a lot
of guys still playing in New Zealand. At the moment
that I spent a lot of time with. The French
were still in France. At the moment the French team
that I played for, I want to watch them do
their fitness tests for twenty minutes and I was like,
oh bugg this, I'm out of here. More just showed
up to or a few people. So I'm still on
and around the rugby environment. I think when we get

(05:11):
home to New Zealand in a month's time and we're
on the farm and we're doing something completely different, that'll
be a time where it will sink in and I'll
probably reflect on a little bit more. I had a
few copies of the book arrived to us here in
France the other day and just seeing it in person,
looking at it open and up and looking at some
photos definitely did get the reflection piece going. But it's

(05:35):
still probably a little bit earlier to really assess what
we've done.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
It was a bit of chatter earlier this year about
the possibility of an early return. It would have been
very early return from retirement. Were you ever close to
coming back and playing for the All Blacks under Scott Robertson.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, the desire is always going to be there, and
I think if you talk to any rugby player that's
played for the All Blacks or potentially was close, there's
always that little bit of you that will go, yep,
if the phone rings are definitely answer and have a
really good conversation with the kids and my wife around,
you know, is that something that we need to do.

(06:13):
So I think that's always going to be there. And
talking to some other great players that I played with,
I think their desire is always there as well. So
it's a hard one because you've got to walk away
at some stage, whether you're told you're done or whether
you pull the pen yourself. So just kind of going
through all that at the moment.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
So so are you done?

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah, no, I'm definitely finished. But you know, I think
it was big Lahore got the sos and you know
he left the farm and when you played a tessmatch.
I think it's a little bit different now with being
professional rather than just being fed on the farm. So
we are done at the stage.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
You devote for the ald Blacks as a twenty one
year old looking back now, did you feel ready for
test rugby?

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Probably not. I think the best thing I had is
I had the ideal and production. I had three really
good coaches with Ted Smith and Chad. They really looked
after me. They never threw me in the deep end
I played. I think it was my first team met
whose teen Test matches off the bench, so most I

(07:20):
played was around twenty twenty five minutes. I never really
got exposed to the brutality of it for more than
that time, and it was a time for me to
allow my body to grow, get bigger and stronger and
actually build up my defenses. And there was pretty much
the ideal way to be introduced to test match footy

(07:40):
rather than throwing the deep end, get hurt and then
you're dealing with an injury.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
From then on, How long did it take you to
feel at home comfortable in the all blacks environment?

Speaker 3 (07:54):
I probably never feel felt one hundred percent comfortable because
I always knew you're only one performance away from being
the last. But in saying that, obviously was around the environment,
got to know the people, got to know what was
expected of me, what was expected of being an all Black,
and then obviously being a senior a black. So that

(08:14):
side of it grew as I was there, but it
took a little while to kind of call myself in
all black. I still feel we're saying it now even
though I have been around the environment so long, because
it was exactly that. It was a childhood dream and
having a chance to do it for so many years
is very, very humbling, and it was an absolute privilege.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
The word you use before to describe test rugby was
the brutality of test rugby, and certainly in your position,
the physicality required at test level, how much of being
able to do that test after test, week after week
subject your body to some massive collisions is a mental thing.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, it's mental and physical. So, like my introduction was
great because I was I think it was one hundred
and six kgs where they wanted me around there one
hundred and fourteen, one hundred and fifteen. So the biggest
thing for myself for those first couple of months was
just eat, eat food, protein, get bigger and stronger, because
I would have broken. And once you get your body

(09:16):
to it at state where you know that you can
withstand those collisions, then it comes down to a mental game.
Like you've said, it's been able to back it up
time and a time again, and when you're playing week in,
week out, you've got bruises and cuts from the week
before and you've just got to find a way to
get out there and deal with it. And I think
that's the best thing about New Zealand, and they do look
after the player. We don't play too much rugby, so

(09:39):
you do have little blocks you can look at and
go okay, about five big weeks here, then I'm going
to get a week off. So that's an easy way
to break it down rather than look at it as
a whole season.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
And one when do you reckon you were playing your
best rugby? When were you at your absolute peak?

Speaker 3 (09:57):
I don't actually know. That's probably for everyone else to
make that decision, but I felt like I was still
playing really, really good rugby right up to the end
of my career. So there was one thing I was
definitely aware of. I didn't want to be the guy
out there that you know, the father would said his son,
see that guy out there, he used to be a
good player. I really wanted to finish and play to

(10:20):
a really high standard my whole career, and I would
like to say that I did that, but yet again
that's not my decision to make.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, I think most observers would say that that was
absolutely the case. Twenty eleven Rugby World Cup Final, subbed
off with thirty minutes to go. You said you hate
it every minute of the rest of the game. How
do you reflect back on that night now?

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, Like I said, I was twenty two, twenty three
at the time, so I was the baby of the team.
I was the guy that no one probably expected to
be there four years before, but played every game at
the World Cup. And as you found, when you're on
the field, it's fine because you have a job to do.
You obviously thinking about the Lonet calls or what you're

(11:03):
going to do. But once I had stepped off the field,
I knew I couldn't have an influence on the game.
I couldn't help the team because it was so loud
they couldn't hear you. So I turned into a fan
that every other key he was feeling. I felt helpless,
and I remember I tried to sit down, I stood up,
I was pacing, and there's a number of other guys
doing the same. So that's where compared to the twenty

(11:25):
fifteen final, being on the field, it was such a
different feeling because I was actually involved, I had something
to do. I didn't have that feeling of helplessness.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
As new players come into the all blacks environment and
you became a more experienced voice and presence in the
all blacks environment, how did you go about making sure
that the new players coming in were well aware of
the responsibility that they had in being an all black.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, it was something that I got set up really
well with people like Kevin me Lamu and some of
those senior guys Mills. I did a really good job
when I was first brought into the environment, and they
did it through telling stories about expectations, what was expected
and what was not. So talked around people doing it well,
but talked around people that didn't do it well. So

(12:15):
then as a player, it was actually really easy. Okay,
this is what's expected, this is not. Here are the
consequences of getting it right and also getting it wrong.
So it was actually really easy. And that's pretty much
how I tried to do it alongside people, and it's
always intimidating. When I first walked into the all black environment,
I was walking into a team that was really established.

(12:37):
Some of the legends of the game were we're there.
So I didn't say boo to a mouse where I
knew as a senior player, I had to go be
the first person to say gooday, to ask them questions
about themselves and get to know them. And once I
did that, then I could actually help influence them. What
was expected.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
How challenging a year was twenty twenty two.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, it was challenging. Every year's challenging. Every year has
different highs and lows. But obviously results weren't going the
way we wanted them to go and the way we
expected and saying with our fans and our friends and family,
so that I put a bit of pressure on everyone.
The best thing through my experience experiences was I just

(13:21):
knew I had to concentrate on rugby and me. So
that's what I tried to do. I tried to just
concentrate on playing good rugby. I knew if I was
doing that, then everything else would sort itself out. I
was a rugby player at the time and that's what
is expected to do, So go out there and play
good rugby. And I tried to leave all the external

(13:42):
noise exactly is that external noise? But sometimes that's easier
said than done.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, I was going to ask there was it easier
said than that?

Speaker 3 (13:51):
I think for myself, not a massive present on social
media and things like that. So I just went back
to some of my hobbies outside of rugby. So when
I was fully committed with rugby, I was all rugby.
When I needed to step away, I could do that
whether I was reading a book or dealing with some
stuff at the farm, and I think that's when I've

(14:11):
played my best rugby. I've had a busy life, but
it's busy in different areas as well.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
So you're you're the all time leading test appearance maker
for the All Blacks. Is that a record that you're
proud of?

Speaker 3 (14:27):
Of course, it's something I'm immensely proud of being able
to represent our beautiful country so many times, but at
the same time exactly that it's just numbers, so I'd
rather hear people talk around performance. Has been able to
back it up time and time again, but it is
something that's so humbling, and I hope that it's inspiring

(14:50):
the next generation, whether that's boys or girls, to go
out there and train hard and fall in love with
the game of rugby.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
How do you Reckon Razor regards All Blacks coach.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, he's three from three at the moment. Yeah. True,
that's a perfect way to start. I'm sure he'll be
very happy with that. I know he is. So it's
going to come down to how he evolves and grows
his style of coaching, how he grows the other coaches
out of there, how he grows the leadership group, the captains,

(15:22):
but more importantly, the All Blacks game and the players.
So it's not an easy job. I wouldn't think a
lot of people would put their hand up to do it.
I think some would would, but maybe wouldn't do the
best of the jobs. So he's been pretty excited to
get into the season. He's been a little bit annoying

(15:43):
previously because he hasn't had a team to coach, but
he's right in the middle of it now and they've
got a test match coming up, so I'm sure they're
preparing as well as they can for that.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
I just want to finish with a phrase in the
book that I absolutely loved, and it's fairly simple. Darkening
the jersey. Is that something that you know? I mean,
I'm not going to ask you darkened the jersey? How
proud are you of the fact that you did that?

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, it's a bit of a different saying, obviously, as
Kiwi's we were black and it's awesome watching the Olympians
out there at the moment with their black on and
the silver fern on their chest and then representing all
of us. So as Kiwi's darkening the jersey is actually
the highest compliment you can receive. And hearing people say
that it was one thing definitely wanted to put in

(16:31):
the book around the feeling you get when you hear
some of those special words, You know you've taken the
jersey and put it in a better spot. So pretty
cool to have that, you know, those we said about myself.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
It's a great read, Samuel, I really enjoyed it. Samuel
white Lock View from the second Row available wherever you
get good books right now. So you're still in France,
back home at some stage soon and then what does
the next little while look like for Samuel white Lock
in the family.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yep, so we are. I think we have twenty odd
days left here and the side of the world. We've
got a bit of a ticky tour through the south
of England and then onto the plane, flying back into
christ Church for a week, picking up all the things
of left in christ Church, moving up to the farm
and Hawks Bay, and then straight into becoming a farmer
and the real world. So looking forward to getting to

(17:24):
know the community up there. There's plenty of jobs to
be done on the farm, so I'm sure I won't
be won't be bored and won't get into too much trouble.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Good to hear, great to chat, Samuel, Thanks for taking
the time.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Awesome cheers, Thank you very much, No, thank.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
You, sam sam Whitelock. There his book is out. View
from the second row is it's really good. It's really good.
It's not just oh we played these guys and won
by this. There's a bit of that obviously, talking about
big games, but there's a lot more to it than that.
Dylan Cleaver was involved in the writing of this book
as well. Sam Whitelock view from the second row, how family,

(17:58):
farming and footy made a champion.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live
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the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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