October 25, 2024 • 12 mins
Tony Brown has spent this season plying his trade with the Springboks, picking up the role of attack coach for the team.
He joined Jason Pine to discuss his journey to the Republic, what it’s like working with Rassie Erasmus, and whether he still has ambitions to coach the All Blacks.
“I played for the All Blacks, obviously from New Zealand, played for New Zealand, Māori, so, you know, one day definitely wanna be able to coach the All Blacks.”
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zed B tat Dog South.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Africa side and I'll take it out in South Africa
fat the All Blacks eighteen twelves. One of New Zealand's
top rugby coaches is currently behind enemy lines. Former Highlanders,
sun Wolves and Japanese assistant coach Tony Brown is now
part of South Africa's coaching cohort and in the Rugby
(00:35):
Championship this year help mastermind a thirty one to twenty
seven win at Allis Park and an eighteen twelve victory
in Cape Town, so two Test match wins for South
Africa over the All Blacks this year. Tony Brown's back
home for a bit before heading north to rejoin the
spring Box for their end of year tour, which features
Test matches against Scotland, England and Wales. He joins us now, Tony,
(00:57):
thanks for taking the time for a chat on Weekend Sport.
Let's take it back. How did the contact and the
role with South Africa all come about?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
First of the year. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, Ressie just gave me a ring during the Cup
because he obviously had a couple of coaches leaving just
to gauge what I was doing the following year, and
I was obviously leaving Japan and needed a job, and
lucky enough picked up the South African job.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Well it's a plumb job.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Did it come out of the blue at all or
was it something that you targeted?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It feels like a massive job, So was it a
bit out of the blue or not?
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, definitely blue. I hadn't heard from RSI since I
played for him in two thousand and eight, so to
get the phone call from him was a little bit bizarre,
but it got me thinking around what I wanted to
do next, and staying an international rugby was definitely my
main goal. And I could potentially have gone back to
(02:03):
Japan and there's another team it was interested as well.
So lucky Enough everything out and got the opportunity to
coach South Africa.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So what is your specific brief within the team.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I'm the I do the attack for the for the
side and just an assistant coach. Was basically and obviously
working with with the backs predominantly when we do our
unit stuff. So yeah, something I enjoyed doing really is
the attacks side of the game.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I guess when we think about South African teams historically,
we don't think about them as particularly expensive teams. Very
four dominated rugby and it's been successful for them for
a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Did you feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Coming in, Tony, that you know that that there might
be some you know, some stereotypes to break or not.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I definitely knew they had a real strong identity around
the physicality, around the set piece and around the kicking
game and obviously defensively the best team in the world,
So I knew that was their identity. And you know,
going in as a new coach, you don't want to
(03:19):
tell the World champions what they need to do different.
You sort of just got to work with what they've
got and try and make little changes along the way.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
How did you navigate that coming into a team that
has been so successful, as you say, World Champions, How
did you sort of navigate your way through that being
being a newcomer into such a successful environment.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah, well, I think my job is to create around
the attack, the attack side of the game for the
South African team, show them the opportunities that they're potentially missing,
show them where they can be better, and when they've
got ball in hand, show the forward to what they
need to do differently to have a big impact on attack,
(03:59):
and then obviously work with the backs that have got
a lot of X factor to make sure that they
play within the structure and with the other fourteen players
on the park.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
How open were they all as a playing group to
the ideas that you brought.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, I think that the first thing was that RESSI
address because we've got two new coaches attack and defense,
and Ressie addressed that at the first meeting, saying that
we've got to look to develop our game, We've got
to look to do things a little bit differently and
not to be close minded around what we were going
to deliver. So it's a It's a great intro for
(04:39):
me getting the head coach to back what I was
going to say, and then from there it's just me
showing the team where we could be better, training different
scenarios around what our attacks should look like, and then
and keep showing them how they how we can do
it a little bit better and how we can improve
as a team and how we can improve as individuals.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Once they started implementing the ideas that you brought to
the table, Tony and they started to work that help
in the in the relationship that you know that what
you were suggesting was actually paying dividends for them.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Winning test matches definitely makes it easier to I guess,
stick to what you were, what you're doing, and stick
to what you're preaching around what we can do better
on an attack. You know, if we had lost four or
five test matches this year, then you know things would
have been different. But you know, from my point of view,
(05:37):
what I what I tried to do and was just
work with the physical side of the game that they're
really good at and just show them a little ways
where we can being direct and then trying to get
us to use our skills a little bit more, trying
to get us to position a little bit quick and
try it. Mostly it was around trying to create a
(05:59):
mindset that we can be the best team in the
world on attack.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I look at the back line that you're working with,
Jesse Chesslin, Colby, Willie LaRue, Curtly, Orenza fly Facy, Damian
de l Ende. I mean, what a what a back
line arguably the best in the world. How do you
assess them as a as a back line and comparing
comparing them to the other ones you've had the chance
to work with.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, I think you know, individually, individually, the some of
the best players in the world for sure. So we
just needed to make sure that we could create space
for them to you know, attack, specially guys like Cheslin
and even a guy like Fussy from from Fallback who's
got some electric speed and currently on the other wing.
(06:46):
Those three guys, if they get a bit bit of
time and a bit of space, then they can beat
players and they can score tries. So my job was
just to show everyone how we could do that, and
and then just keep driving it during the trainings and
keep creating the mindset that to be able to create space,
you've got to you got to a tax space. So
(07:09):
there's just little things like that that we just added
to the physical side of the Springbok game.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You mentioned before as well.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I guess we assume you know when you're when you're
an attack coach, you immediately think, okay, you're working mainly
with the backs, but you mentioned there that you did
quite a bit with the forwards as well.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Is that right? One hundred percent?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
If the attack's going to work, the forwards are the
most important and I think probably in the past the
spring Box have just had a forward pack that was
really dominant and then they would would do their thing
and you just give it to the backs and hope
that they did their things. So for me, it was
around getting your run combining getting the type forwards, creating
(07:49):
space for the for the inside backs and there and
then you're getting your loose forwards who are operating out
in the width. So you're a lot lot more dangerous
team if if every run's on the same page and
and they're creating space for each other.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Can you articulate for us see a Calisi's influence in
the South African side.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Well, obviously he's won two Cups, so it's hard. I've
only been in there for six months, so it's a
little bit hard for me. But just my initial impression
of Seas he's, you know, one hundred percent committed to
South Africa. He wants the rugby team to represent the
country and definitely represent transformation within South Africa and you know,
(08:36):
the spring Box and doing an amazing job at that.
And he's probably the leader of all aside of spring
Bok rugby, and you know, and he's a selfless guy.
You know, he doesn't. He doesn't always play. He hardly
ever plays eighty minutes. Sometimes he's only playing forty. So
he just does whatever's required from him for the team
(08:57):
and he sacrifices a lot for the spring box.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
How did you find it coaching against the All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Definitely different, but it's something there, especially the Johannesburg Teas match,
the All Backs versus South Africa. It was just amazing
to be a part of that Teas match, even though
I was coaching against the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I just the reason why I.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
Took the South Africans job was to be coaching on
the biggest stage and the biggest test matches, and for me,
there was probably the biggest one that I've coached in
so far. So pretty amazing. Yeah, it's it's just rugby.
You know, one day maybe I'll be coaching the All Blacks,
but at the moment, I'm just fully committed to South Africa.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
You're still hard at that ambition.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Always. You know, I played for the All Blacks obviously
from New Zealand, played for New Zealand Maldi, so you know,
one day definitely want to be able to coach the
All Blacks at some stage.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
How do you assess where they are after nine tests
of this year under under their new coach, Scott Robertson.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Tough for me.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
To give you a toper opinion. You know, I think
this is starting to find their way as a coaching team.
The players are potentially look starting to believe in the
coaches a little bit more. And if if they can
get those two things working really well, then you'll see
the players being able to I believe, and and they'll
(10:40):
get better better quip.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
And uh, we see the public face of Rassi Erasmus
a lot, we might now, you know, we we obviously
enjoy see him in media situations and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
What does he like to to work alongside?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
He's very good, one hundred percent honest. You know, he's
he's got the South African players one hundred percent committed
to South African rugby and committed to the country. And
you know, especially in professional sport nowadays, it can be
easy to be selfish in certain times, and but he
(11:20):
makes sure that everyone is fully committed and everyone understands
that if you're not playing, you're still committed to helping
the other players prepare. And you know, he just wants
to play us to be one hundred percent honest with him,
and he's created this environment where I believe the South
African players would literally lie down and die for the team.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Must be an incredible environment to be a part of.
Is it a Is it a deal through to the
next World Cup, Tony or what's the what's the duration
of the deal for you?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Yeah? For me, it's through to the World Cup. You
know that was something that Russi was pretty strong on
around committing through to the World Cup because all of
his plannings around getting ready for that.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, it's been a great pleasure to catch up with you. Look,
we can only congratulate you on being part of the
South African side that has looked tremendous this year and
a lot of chat about how much more expansive they
are on attack and it's great to get your insight
into it.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Tony. Thanks for taking the time for a chat this afternoon.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Thank you pleasure anytime.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Thanks Tony.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Tony Brown, there Attack Coach, Assistant Coach of South Africa.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talks b weekends from midday or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zed B tat Dog South.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Africa side and I'll take it out in South Africa
fat the All Blacks eighteen twelves. One of New Zealand's
top rugby coaches is currently behind enemy lines. Former Highlanders,
sun Wolves and Japanese assistant coach Tony Brown is now
part of South Africa's coaching cohort and in the Rugby
(00:35):
Championship this year help mastermind a thirty one to twenty
seven win at Allis Park and an eighteen twelve victory
in Cape Town, so two Test match wins for South
Africa over the All Blacks this year. Tony Brown's back
home for a bit before heading north to rejoin the
spring Box for their end of year tour, which features
Test matches against Scotland, England and Wales. He joins us now, Tony,
(00:57):
thanks for taking the time for a chat on Weekend Sport.
Let's take it back. How did the contact and the
role with South Africa all come about?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
First of the year. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, Ressie just gave me a ring during the Cup
because he obviously had a couple of coaches leaving just
to gauge what I was doing the following year, and
I was obviously leaving Japan and needed a job, and
lucky enough picked up the South African job.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Well it's a plumb job.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Did it come out of the blue at all or
was it something that you targeted?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It feels like a massive job, So was it a
bit out of the blue or not?
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, definitely blue. I hadn't heard from RSI since I
played for him in two thousand and eight, so to
get the phone call from him was a little bit bizarre,
but it got me thinking around what I wanted to
do next, and staying an international rugby was definitely my
main goal. And I could potentially have gone back to
(02:03):
Japan and there's another team it was interested as well.
So lucky Enough everything out and got the opportunity to
coach South Africa.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So what is your specific brief within the team.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I'm the I do the attack for the for the
side and just an assistant coach. Was basically and obviously
working with with the backs predominantly when we do our
unit stuff. So yeah, something I enjoyed doing really is
the attacks side of the game.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I guess when we think about South African teams historically,
we don't think about them as particularly expensive teams. Very
four dominated rugby and it's been successful for them for
a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Did you feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Coming in, Tony, that you know that that there might
be some you know, some stereotypes to break or not.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I definitely knew they had a real strong identity around
the physicality, around the set piece and around the kicking
game and obviously defensively the best team in the world,
So I knew that was their identity. And you know,
going in as a new coach, you don't want to
(03:19):
tell the World champions what they need to do different.
You sort of just got to work with what they've
got and try and make little changes along the way.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
How did you navigate that coming into a team that
has been so successful, as you say, World Champions, How
did you sort of navigate your way through that being
being a newcomer into such a successful environment.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah, well, I think my job is to create around
the attack, the attack side of the game for the
South African team, show them the opportunities that they're potentially missing,
show them where they can be better, and when they've
got ball in hand, show the forward to what they
need to do differently to have a big impact on attack,
(03:59):
and then obviously work with the backs that have got
a lot of X factor to make sure that they
play within the structure and with the other fourteen players
on the park.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
How open were they all as a playing group to
the ideas that you brought.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, I think that the first thing was that RESSI
address because we've got two new coaches attack and defense,
and Ressie addressed that at the first meeting, saying that
we've got to look to develop our game, We've got
to look to do things a little bit differently and
not to be close minded around what we were going
to deliver. So it's a It's a great intro for
(04:39):
me getting the head coach to back what I was
going to say, and then from there it's just me
showing the team where we could be better, training different
scenarios around what our attacks should look like, and then
and keep showing them how they how we can do
it a little bit better and how we can improve
as a team and how we can improve as individuals.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Once they started implementing the ideas that you brought to
the table, Tony and they started to work that help
in the in the relationship that you know that what
you were suggesting was actually paying dividends for them.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
Winning test matches definitely makes it easier to I guess,
stick to what you were, what you're doing, and stick
to what you're preaching around what we can do better
on an attack. You know, if we had lost four or
five test matches this year, then you know things would
have been different. But you know, from my point of view,
(05:37):
what I what I tried to do and was just
work with the physical side of the game that they're
really good at and just show them a little ways
where we can being direct and then trying to get
us to use our skills a little bit more, trying
to get us to position a little bit quick and
try it. Mostly it was around trying to create a
(05:59):
mindset that we can be the best team in the
world on attack.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I look at the back line that you're working with,
Jesse Chesslin, Colby, Willie LaRue, Curtly, Orenza fly Facy, Damian
de l Ende. I mean, what a what a back
line arguably the best in the world. How do you
assess them as a as a back line and comparing
comparing them to the other ones you've had the chance
to work with.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, I think you know, individually, individually, the some of
the best players in the world for sure. So we
just needed to make sure that we could create space
for them to you know, attack, specially guys like Cheslin
and even a guy like Fussy from from Fallback who's
got some electric speed and currently on the other wing.
(06:46):
Those three guys, if they get a bit bit of
time and a bit of space, then they can beat
players and they can score tries. So my job was
just to show everyone how we could do that, and
and then just keep driving it during the trainings and
keep creating the mindset that to be able to create space,
you've got to you got to a tax space. So
(07:09):
there's just little things like that that we just added
to the physical side of the Springbok game.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You mentioned before as well.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I guess we assume you know when you're when you're
an attack coach, you immediately think, okay, you're working mainly
with the backs, but you mentioned there that you did
quite a bit with the forwards as well.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Is that right? One hundred percent?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
If the attack's going to work, the forwards are the
most important and I think probably in the past the
spring Box have just had a forward pack that was
really dominant and then they would would do their thing
and you just give it to the backs and hope
that they did their things. So for me, it was
around getting your run combining getting the type forwards, creating
(07:49):
space for the for the inside backs and there and
then you're getting your loose forwards who are operating out
in the width. So you're a lot lot more dangerous
team if if every run's on the same page and
and they're creating space for each other.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Can you articulate for us see a Calisi's influence in
the South African side.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Well, obviously he's won two Cups, so it's hard. I've
only been in there for six months, so it's a
little bit hard for me. But just my initial impression
of Seas he's, you know, one hundred percent committed to
South Africa. He wants the rugby team to represent the
country and definitely represent transformation within South Africa and you know,
(08:36):
the spring Box and doing an amazing job at that.
And he's probably the leader of all aside of spring
Bok rugby, and you know, and he's a selfless guy.
You know, he doesn't. He doesn't always play. He hardly
ever plays eighty minutes. Sometimes he's only playing forty. So
he just does whatever's required from him for the team
(08:57):
and he sacrifices a lot for the spring box.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
How did you find it coaching against the All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Definitely different, but it's something there, especially the Johannesburg Teas match,
the All Backs versus South Africa. It was just amazing
to be a part of that Teas match, even though
I was coaching against the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I just the reason why I.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
Took the South Africans job was to be coaching on
the biggest stage and the biggest test matches, and for me,
there was probably the biggest one that I've coached in
so far. So pretty amazing. Yeah, it's it's just rugby.
You know, one day maybe I'll be coaching the All Blacks,
but at the moment, I'm just fully committed to South Africa.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
You're still hard at that ambition.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Always. You know, I played for the All Blacks obviously
from New Zealand, played for New Zealand Maldi, so you know,
one day definitely want to be able to coach the
All Blacks at some stage.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
How do you assess where they are after nine tests
of this year under under their new coach, Scott Robertson.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Tough for me.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
To give you a toper opinion. You know, I think
this is starting to find their way as a coaching team.
The players are potentially look starting to believe in the
coaches a little bit more. And if if they can
get those two things working really well, then you'll see
the players being able to I believe, and and they'll
(10:40):
get better better quip.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
And uh, we see the public face of Rassi Erasmus
a lot, we might now, you know, we we obviously
enjoy see him in media situations and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
What does he like to to work alongside?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
He's very good, one hundred percent honest. You know, he's
he's got the South African players one hundred percent committed
to South African rugby and committed to the country. And
you know, especially in professional sport nowadays, it can be
easy to be selfish in certain times, and but he
(11:20):
makes sure that everyone is fully committed and everyone understands
that if you're not playing, you're still committed to helping
the other players prepare. And you know, he just wants
to play us to be one hundred percent honest with him,
and he's created this environment where I believe the South
African players would literally lie down and die for the team.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Must be an incredible environment to be a part of.
Is it a Is it a deal through to the
next World Cup, Tony or what's the what's the duration
of the deal for you?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Yeah? For me, it's through to the World Cup. You
know that was something that Russi was pretty strong on
around committing through to the World Cup because all of
his plannings around getting ready for that.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, it's been a great pleasure to catch up with you. Look,
we can only congratulate you on being part of the
South African side that has looked tremendous this year and
a lot of chat about how much more expansive they
are on attack and it's great to get your insight
into it.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Tony. Thanks for taking the time for a chat this afternoon.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Thank you pleasure anytime.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Thanks Tony.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Tony Brown, there Attack Coach, Assistant Coach of South Africa.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talks b weekends from midday or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio,
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