December 7, 2024 • 11 mins
Coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith joined Piney to dissect some 'dangerous' coaching cliches - and how they can slow down improvement.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zb for.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A regular feature on the show this year has been
the Wisdom of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, who's joined us
on various different matters around coaching at an elite or
grassroots level or anywhere in between. It joins us for
the final time this year. Wayne. I saw a post
from you on social media this week that I wanted
to drill down into and it was entitled why sporting
(00:35):
teams fail after a period of success? And you said
that seven words explain it, and those seven words are
that's the way we do it here. So why are
those words and that philosophy so dangerous?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well, I think what those words convey is a lot
of different things. Party that it's saying, our way is
the only way, our way is the best way, our
way is the right way. And if you've been around
sport for a while, you know that that's true. But
for a very very short moment of time. And look,
(01:15):
I remember working with a coach of an Olympic gold
medalist in trek and field years ago and he said,
I said, how excited Philly excited about it? And he said,
I am, but I'm just thinking about all the coaches
and our competitors around the world who are looking and going,
how do we beat her?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
And it was this reality that even though at that
moment she was the Olympic gold medalist and the best
of the best, the reality is everybody has now seen
that and gone, ah, that's how you've done it.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I'm going to do it better. I'm going to learn
from you and improve. Whereas if you say, oh, that's
the way we do it here, your brain, your mind,
your imagination, creativity, innovation stops because you're convinced that you've
got it and for whever I shall, it be the case.
And it's just not right.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Another saying you hear a lot, not just in sport.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is their merit
to that? If what you're doing is getting you success,
then is their merit in not changing it too much?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well? Look, I always go back to who are the
brands in our life that have been sustainably successful for
a long long time? So you look at something like Apple,
or you look at BMW, or you look at the
brands that have grown have been sustainably successful over a long,
long period of time. Now we know at the moment
if you go into an Apple Shop, which to me
(02:39):
is just in insanely full on place where you're getting
exposed to all sorts of ideas. But you go on
an Apple Shop and we're not sponsored by Apple, by
the way, are we find it?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
No, we're not.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
But you know, we go into a shop at Apple Shop,
and they're going to tell you that this model of phone,
this model of tablet, this model of technology is the
best and it can't get any better, and this is
the latest in technology and the greatest thing that's ever happened.
(03:08):
Yet we know that they're already made, designed and built
next year's one, and we know that they've built and designed,
pretty much finished the one for twenty twenty six, and
they've probably got the twenty thirty model on the planning
platform and ready to go as well, and each one
of those will be better. So we know that the
(03:29):
brands in our broader life that have been sustainably successful
are constantly reinventing. Now, having said that, if we stick
with that Apple nihalogy, that they don't change the size
of the phone much and they don't change the shape
of the phone much. They keep the things that they
(03:51):
know work, but then they go, but where can we
find an edge? So fast, a process, that raw, bigger,
process that raw better camera. So they look at the
things that they know work, and then they go, yeah,
but we can still be better. That continue improvement mindset.
The teams that get that sustain success. The teams and
(04:12):
the organizations who don't, who believe in that's the way
we do it here, their success is fleeting, are quite
often almost accidental or lucky.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Do you find that that teams and coaches who have
been successful are more likely to be the ones who
seek to change things up to seek that improvement or
because you know, I would imagine there would be a
certain degree of resistance among a playing group who say
to their coach, Look, you've been telling us what to do.
We've done that, we're winning games. Now you're telling us
(04:42):
to do another thing or a slightly different thing. Is
there resistance in any way among players in situations like this?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There can be, And it's because the way that you
talk to the playgroup. If you say, the playgroup, it's
all about the grand Final. We have to win the
Grand Final. We're going to be at our best at
the and everything's based around the achievement of success at
a singular point in time, where you've spent all that
time convincing them that their model, their system, their structure,
(05:14):
their play is the best way and forever shall it
be the case? Then for them come back the next
year and say, hey, guys, guess what we're going to
change it all that can be really confronting. If you
listen to the words of the really switched on coaches,
the ones that have been around for a while, They
talk about things like it's a journey. Every moment is
an opportunity for us to learn. We're continuing to learn
(05:36):
and progress and improve as a player group. And you
even heard it with the great the Crusaders teams with
the Penrith Panthers, they very rarely talk about we're gonna
get to the Grand Final and win it and Bubba,
it's it's not a those finite terms. It's all about
every game we've learned, we've improved as a group. We're
getting better. I don't think we've realized our potential yet.
(05:58):
If you've been around for a while, you tend not
to speak in absolutes or finalities. You tend to talk
in the terms of continuous improvement, ongoing learning, being the
best I can be, but I can always get better.
You tend to stick to those terms if you've been
around for a while. If you're just selling them once
(06:19):
win and forget it, then you're almost painting what the
future is going to look like.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
There are some coaches who are tremendously successful over a
sustained period of time, and then they start to be
less successful, and people start to talk a little bit
about those coaches. The game has moved on. He's yesterday's man.
You know, the game has passed him by. Now are
there some coaches who just are either unable or unwilling
to make the change when it's needed.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It's a wonderful question by you, as you know, I
love swimming and I've been in it for a long
long time, and the coaches involved, they're wonderful. They getting
up early, They're given their life to it. You're going
to add the same people like gymnastics coaches, coaches and
distance running coaches, and you know, there's a lot of
coaches getting up early and given everything they've got to
(07:12):
the sport. However, when I go around the world, the
default model of delivering something like swimming is coaches standing
at at the pearl yelling numbers to kids. Now, that
was a reasonably successful model for a large period of time,
but we're dealing with kids now who are TikTokers. They
want short pieces of information, They want to be engaged,
(07:34):
they want to be listened to, they want to work
with you, they want to feel part of the process.
And I say to the coaches, look, even though your
model may have worked, and you may have even put
someone on an Olympic team or even won a medal,
we're dealing with a society that's evolved so quickly. The
learning has become so different. The way the kids engage
(07:57):
with learning and want to be engaged with their teachers
and their parents and their peers has changed. So, if
you're a smart coach, you're staying true to the things
that you blare believe hard work, dedication, commitment, passion, all
those things, but you're shaping it and remodeling it and
delivering it and packaging it in a way that's appropriate
(08:17):
for the generations that we're dealing with now. The common
thing I hear from coaches is, oh, there's something wrong
with the kids, and the kids are not doing it
the way that we used to do it, and the
kids have got it wrong. It's their parents that have
got so many things on and we've got a soft society.
No no, no, no, no, you're yelling into a fan
(08:39):
in a breeze. You've got to say, well, I can't
change the children of the world. I can't change parenting
in New Zealand. I can't change the way people engage
with technology. I can only change myself and I as
a coach. I'm not going to change my belief in
hard work and commitment dedication. But I'm going to change
(09:01):
the things that will allow me to remain successful, which
is aging with kids, engaging athletes in a way that
they want to be engaged with now. And look, I
know this coach is listening at the moment, Pinty going no,
he doesn't get it. You know that's not like that
for tennis or rowing or I promise you guys, I
really do get this. This is what I live day
(09:23):
to day, and my will stay true to the things
that you know work, but be smart enough and intelligent
enough to tweak and change and improve and enhance the
things that will allow you to sustain your success. But
I would even think you'd be a look at Bellamy
and Ben are two great examples in NRL. I guarantee
there's things that they do that haven't changed since the
(09:45):
nineteen seventies, guarantee. But I also guarantee they've made five
ten percent change every year since of the things that
they know will allow them to sustain sucist. So I
guarantee when Bennett went into this great line Bennett says,
which is what you take into coaching is what you
take out. So I'm guarantee he would believe in those
(10:08):
core values what's important. His coaching philosophies would not have changed,
but he would have changed the things that would have
allowed him to continue to be successful. And that's the
real art of coaching or success in anything.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Incredible wisdom and brilliant advice from you as always, Wayne,
Thank you so much for today and for all your
contributions to Weekend Sport across the year. I hope you
have a lovely, lovely break over the next little while,
and well I hope that we can chat again when
twenty twenty five rolls around.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Mate. The greatest Christmas present I could want for would
get more time with you next year.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Okay, well that's quite a low bar, Wayne, but we'll
see if we can make it, make it happen. Thanks again,
my friend Wayne Goldsmith, part of Weekend Sport across the
year and does it to be again next year. You
can find out more about Wayne on his website WG
coaching dot com.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fain, listen live
to News Talk zed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zb for.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A regular feature on the show this year has been
the Wisdom of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, who's joined us
on various different matters around coaching at an elite or
grassroots level or anywhere in between. It joins us for
the final time this year. Wayne. I saw a post
from you on social media this week that I wanted
to drill down into and it was entitled why sporting
(00:35):
teams fail after a period of success? And you said
that seven words explain it, and those seven words are
that's the way we do it here. So why are
those words and that philosophy so dangerous?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well, I think what those words convey is a lot
of different things. Party that it's saying, our way is
the only way, our way is the best way, our
way is the right way. And if you've been around
sport for a while, you know that that's true. But
for a very very short moment of time. And look,
(01:15):
I remember working with a coach of an Olympic gold
medalist in trek and field years ago and he said,
I said, how excited Philly excited about it? And he said,
I am, but I'm just thinking about all the coaches
and our competitors around the world who are looking and going,
how do we beat her?
Speaker 4 (01:34):
And it was this reality that even though at that
moment she was the Olympic gold medalist and the best
of the best, the reality is everybody has now seen
that and gone, ah, that's how you've done it.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I'm going to do it better. I'm going to learn
from you and improve. Whereas if you say, oh, that's
the way we do it here, your brain, your mind,
your imagination, creativity, innovation stops because you're convinced that you've
got it and for whever I shall, it be the case.
And it's just not right.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Another saying you hear a lot, not just in sport.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is their merit
to that? If what you're doing is getting you success,
then is their merit in not changing it too much?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well? Look, I always go back to who are the
brands in our life that have been sustainably successful for
a long long time? So you look at something like Apple,
or you look at BMW, or you look at the
brands that have grown have been sustainably successful over a long,
long period of time. Now we know at the moment
if you go into an Apple Shop, which to me
(02:39):
is just in insanely full on place where you're getting
exposed to all sorts of ideas. But you go on
an Apple Shop and we're not sponsored by Apple, by
the way, are we find it?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
No, we're not.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
But you know, we go into a shop at Apple Shop,
and they're going to tell you that this model of phone,
this model of tablet, this model of technology is the
best and it can't get any better, and this is
the latest in technology and the greatest thing that's ever happened.
(03:08):
Yet we know that they're already made, designed and built
next year's one, and we know that they've built and designed,
pretty much finished the one for twenty twenty six, and
they've probably got the twenty thirty model on the planning
platform and ready to go as well, and each one
of those will be better. So we know that the
(03:29):
brands in our broader life that have been sustainably successful
are constantly reinventing. Now, having said that, if we stick
with that Apple nihalogy, that they don't change the size
of the phone much and they don't change the shape
of the phone much. They keep the things that they
(03:51):
know work, but then they go, but where can we
find an edge? So fast, a process, that raw, bigger,
process that raw better camera. So they look at the
things that they know work, and then they go, yeah,
but we can still be better. That continue improvement mindset.
The teams that get that sustain success. The teams and
(04:12):
the organizations who don't, who believe in that's the way
we do it here, their success is fleeting, are quite
often almost accidental or lucky.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Do you find that that teams and coaches who have
been successful are more likely to be the ones who
seek to change things up to seek that improvement or
because you know, I would imagine there would be a
certain degree of resistance among a playing group who say
to their coach, Look, you've been telling us what to do.
We've done that, we're winning games. Now you're telling us
(04:42):
to do another thing or a slightly different thing. Is
there resistance in any way among players in situations like this?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There can be, And it's because the way that you
talk to the playgroup. If you say, the playgroup, it's
all about the grand Final. We have to win the
Grand Final. We're going to be at our best at
the and everything's based around the achievement of success at
a singular point in time, where you've spent all that
time convincing them that their model, their system, their structure,
(05:14):
their play is the best way and forever shall it
be the case? Then for them come back the next
year and say, hey, guys, guess what we're going to
change it all that can be really confronting. If you
listen to the words of the really switched on coaches,
the ones that have been around for a while, They
talk about things like it's a journey. Every moment is
an opportunity for us to learn. We're continuing to learn
(05:36):
and progress and improve as a player group. And you
even heard it with the great the Crusaders teams with
the Penrith Panthers, they very rarely talk about we're gonna
get to the Grand Final and win it and Bubba,
it's it's not a those finite terms. It's all about
every game we've learned, we've improved as a group. We're
getting better. I don't think we've realized our potential yet.
(05:58):
If you've been around for a while, you tend not
to speak in absolutes or finalities. You tend to talk
in the terms of continuous improvement, ongoing learning, being the
best I can be, but I can always get better.
You tend to stick to those terms if you've been
around for a while. If you're just selling them once
(06:19):
win and forget it, then you're almost painting what the
future is going to look like.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
There are some coaches who are tremendously successful over a
sustained period of time, and then they start to be
less successful, and people start to talk a little bit
about those coaches. The game has moved on. He's yesterday's man.
You know, the game has passed him by. Now are
there some coaches who just are either unable or unwilling
to make the change when it's needed.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It's a wonderful question by you, as you know, I
love swimming and I've been in it for a long
long time, and the coaches involved, they're wonderful. They getting
up early, They're given their life to it. You're going
to add the same people like gymnastics coaches, coaches and
distance running coaches, and you know, there's a lot of
coaches getting up early and given everything they've got to
(07:12):
the sport. However, when I go around the world, the
default model of delivering something like swimming is coaches standing
at at the pearl yelling numbers to kids. Now, that
was a reasonably successful model for a large period of time,
but we're dealing with kids now who are TikTokers. They
want short pieces of information, They want to be engaged,
(07:34):
they want to be listened to, they want to work
with you, they want to feel part of the process.
And I say to the coaches, look, even though your
model may have worked, and you may have even put
someone on an Olympic team or even won a medal,
we're dealing with a society that's evolved so quickly. The
learning has become so different. The way the kids engage
(07:57):
with learning and want to be engaged with their teachers
and their parents and their peers has changed. So, if
you're a smart coach, you're staying true to the things
that you blare believe hard work, dedication, commitment, passion, all
those things, but you're shaping it and remodeling it and
delivering it and packaging it in a way that's appropriate
(08:17):
for the generations that we're dealing with now. The common
thing I hear from coaches is, oh, there's something wrong
with the kids, and the kids are not doing it
the way that we used to do it, and the
kids have got it wrong. It's their parents that have
got so many things on and we've got a soft society.
No no, no, no, no, you're yelling into a fan
(08:39):
in a breeze. You've got to say, well, I can't
change the children of the world. I can't change parenting
in New Zealand. I can't change the way people engage
with technology. I can only change myself and I as
a coach. I'm not going to change my belief in
hard work and commitment dedication. But I'm going to change
(09:01):
the things that will allow me to remain successful, which
is aging with kids, engaging athletes in a way that
they want to be engaged with now. And look, I
know this coach is listening at the moment, Pinty going no,
he doesn't get it. You know that's not like that
for tennis or rowing or I promise you guys, I
really do get this. This is what I live day
(09:23):
to day, and my will stay true to the things
that you know work, but be smart enough and intelligent
enough to tweak and change and improve and enhance the
things that will allow you to sustain your success. But
I would even think you'd be a look at Bellamy
and Ben are two great examples in NRL. I guarantee
there's things that they do that haven't changed since the
(09:45):
nineteen seventies, guarantee. But I also guarantee they've made five
ten percent change every year since of the things that
they know will allow them to sustain sucist. So I
guarantee when Bennett went into this great line Bennett says,
which is what you take into coaching is what you
take out. So I'm guarantee he would believe in those
(10:08):
core values what's important. His coaching philosophies would not have changed,
but he would have changed the things that would have
allowed him to continue to be successful. And that's the
real art of coaching or success in anything.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Incredible wisdom and brilliant advice from you as always, Wayne,
Thank you so much for today and for all your
contributions to Weekend Sport across the year. I hope you
have a lovely, lovely break over the next little while,
and well I hope that we can chat again when
twenty twenty five rolls around.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Mate. The greatest Christmas present I could want for would
get more time with you next year.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Okay, well that's quite a low bar, Wayne, but we'll
see if we can make it, make it happen. Thanks again,
my friend Wayne Goldsmith, part of Weekend Sport across the
year and does it to be again next year. You
can find out more about Wayne on his website WG
coaching dot com.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fain, listen live
to News Talk zed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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