December 14, 2024 • 13 mins
Mitch Santner and Will O'Rourke are salvaging some last-minute runs for the Black Caps on the second day of the third cricket test against England in Hamilton.
Moments ago the hosts were 331 for nine.
Sportswriter Dylan Cleaver joined Piney to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from news talk ZEDB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
As mentioned a short time ago, Mitchell Sanna out for
seventy six New Zealand all out for three hundred and
forty seven batting first against England in Hamilton, having been
sent into bat three four seven. I'm not sure whether
you'd be happy with that or having been one forty
one for one, would you feel it's an opportunity lost.
Let's bring in one of our leading sports writers, multi
(00:36):
award winner, editor of the superb subscriber newsletter The Bounce,
co host of the BYC podcast, Dylan Cleaver. Dylan, maybe
I'll just ask you that sent in, would you be
happy with three four seven or at one forty one
for one? Would you feel as though it is an
opportunity lost?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yes, really curious one. You'd have to as a Black
Cats fan, you'd have to feel reasonably satisfied about being
sent in and ending up with three four seven, particularly
how the rest of the series has gone. But then
you look one o five without loss and you're thinking
cheaper that there's a four point fifty on here if
they get their heads down. So that middle section of
(01:16):
the innings was extremely disappointing, and in particular the modes
of dismissal were extremely disappointing. So on Ballance, I think
three four seven is slightly disappointing. But I go back
to that old old cricket cliche, which is you can
never tell the true nature of a wicket until both
teams have bettered on it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
All right, we're going to find that out in the
next few hours or so. You mentioned the middle order, Ravendra, Mitchell, Blundell, Phillips.
I think all got out to poor shot yesterday. What
did you make of their respective downfalls.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah, look, I haven't done a better word for it
than you just mentioned, which is poor. I think there
was poor thinking and that was poorly executed shot making.
And I guess the thing that was really disappointing about
it was that Ben Stokes signposted what they were trying
to do. He'd obviously recognized that the wicket was two paces,
particularly at one end. I think when you bowl from
(02:09):
the temporarily named tim South end, I think there's a
real trampoline bounce and patches there which can catch you up.
So he stacked that off side field. He essentially put
a great wall of China off side field bowlers bled
a lot of whip balls, offering the black Cats the
(02:30):
opportunity to try and score through that field, and they
just kept taking him up on the offer. I thought
Ratchenravender has had a I mean, he's an immense talent.
Here's the future. I don't want to take away from
that at all, but I think he's had a very
poor series in terms of his just as thought processes
at decrease. He's been going out to poor shots. Daryl
(02:50):
Mitchell doesn't look quite the same player he did, even
sort of a twelve months ago blunded forms being the
World Documentaris, although he had that kind of cathartic sentry
in the Lost Cause down on the basin, And yeah,
Glen Phillip's chipping to deep point was perhaps the worst
shot of the lot. And yeah, it was a shame
(03:12):
because he sometimes doesn't get a lot of opportunities, Glen Fillips,
because he's often kind of batting and trying to manipulate
the tail. But this was definitely an opportunity lost.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
You said in your newsletter yesterday that these things are
always easier to say with the benefit of hindsight. But
you don't need to rewrite history to comes to the
conclusion that finding a place for Will Young from the
outset of this series could have been useful. And then
you went through the possibilities for how you could shoe
hornhim into the team. It is a wonderful thing hindsight.
(03:45):
What did you make of Will Gang's batting yesterday?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Very pleasant, very well young. It's and I mean that
in both positives in slightly negative way. I think he's
a terrific talent who hasn't been utilized properly by new
selling cricket, the high performance. I really do think he's
been let down a lot of it time shuffled up
and down the order. He's never really been allowed to
(04:10):
establish himself. Probably goes to the probably every time he
goes to the crease, he's pretty much thinking, if I
don't do something here, this could be my last bat
for a while. And that's another great way to play cricket.
When you look at the faith pulling other people, I
think you get I think you get results by giving
players confidence. Having said that he's played a lot of
(04:31):
these extended cameos, he hasn't actually grasped that opportunity as
fleeting as been and I thought yesterday was just that
perfect example of that, where he played some lovely shots.
He's got shots all around the wicket. A couple of
those drives down the ground were you know, as good
as what came Williamson can produce. And I can't think
(04:52):
of a kind of higher accolade than that, really, And
yet you look at the scoreboard and it's forty two
and he's out and he got a good ball, so
he wasn't one of the ones that wafted his wicked
away into the into the off side field. He got
a genuinely good ballding nick to slip. And that happens
when you open the banning. And that's also why I
don't think it means it's ideal spot. But yeah, I
(05:14):
mean one hundred ground opening partnership with Latham, who also
looked really good. It does make you wonder, I mean,
with the incumbent sitting back and wing and is there
a route back to to the team to Devin Conway.
I certainly think there is, but as an opening bedder,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And this is as you say, we can't change the past,
but we can, you know, have a look at what
might happen in the future. And yeah, the last you're
so right about Will Young in terms of as he
called them, cameos his last few mornings forty two, fifty one,
seventy one, twenty three, eighteen forty eight, not out thirty three.
That takes us through the Indian Series obviously, and the
first innings here in Hamilton. I just worried Dylan that,
(05:57):
you know, when Test cricket rolls around again, it'll all
be forgotten again, you know, don't play Test matchers again.
To what middle of next year, I feel like Will
Young won't be in that team.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, I kind of think he will be. He is contract,
he's centrally contracted. He wants to play for New Zealand
as far as someone where he's kind of shown no
inclination to join the franchise circuit, although he certainly got
the skills to play in those as a gap feeling.
(06:30):
It's not based on anything other than I kind of
get the feeling that this might be his time. Now.
This is at the end of a World Test Championship cycle.
They need to think ahead to the next World Tests
Championship cycle. The Conway Latham Partnership feels broken. It feels
irreparably broken. Again. I say this kind of untend to
(06:55):
hook slightly because I don't think opening as will Young's
best position, But based on what happened Yester, I kind
of feel like they will start the next World Test
Championship cycle with Young Lathan as the opel pair.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
It just occurred to me when I was at the
scoreboard earlier that England didn't use their spinner Shower Bashia
at all. I don't think he's injured as he they
went what ninety seven overs without using their spinner.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, I think they will have definitely have plans for
him playing a big role in the third innings of
this match, and there was always just enough encouragement and
sometimes more than just enough encouragement actually keep the seamas on.
I thought Ben Stokes bowled some peerlas. I mean his figures.
I think he took one for ninety one at the
end whish was really unfeathering, but he was swinging it
(07:44):
around corners both ways, which again was probably encouragement to
keep the seamas on. So yeah, I wouldn't read too
much into that. I will see what approached John Lathan
takes where you know, he's got Satnuel in the eleven
who's obviously on the high. Having given that the last
time he bowled in the Test, he came away with
thirteen wickets and he just played potentially his best Test
(08:09):
and things. I know he has got a Test one
hundred against England, but there was not a very very
very flat wicket at mouth Longanui. I think he bettered
superbly here, so his confidence is probably as high as
it's ever been in the Test arena.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
How will you remember Tim Saudi as a Test cricketer.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I personally remember him as absolutely great, and maybe maybe
less as an absolute individual great, certainly as one half
of an all time great opening goal in partnership. I
thought the Saudi right arm or way swing from one
end and Trent Bolt left arm from the other was,
(08:52):
you know, honest day, it was just a joy to watch.
That's how I'll remember him. I remember him interestingly enough.
I was on his first overseas away tour. Now as
a player, I must quick the ad, but I was
bardder The Black Cats taught to England in two thousand
and eight. I'm pretty sure I've got the date right there,
and it was the first overseas far away, and he
(09:16):
just looked like this. It sounds like kinder, I don't
really mean it this way. It's this kind of goofy
country kid who was living his dream and then he
actually realized that that's exactly what he was. He was
this country kid. He became far as goofy as he
got older, but he was this country kid living in
his dream. And all he ever wanted to do was
(09:37):
bold for New Zealand and hit sixers. And he's lived
out that dream. And yeah, I think he's been a
magnificent servant. All is everyone to do is play for
New Zealand. He's never he's always taken up a central contract.
He plays the ND when he gets a chance, he
plays all three formats whenever he gets the chance. He
(09:58):
never turns down the opportunity to play. He's just been
a terrific servant in New zealing cricket who I think
a lot of the time is underappreciated. Having said that,
and you kind of knew there was back coming head
in there. You can't. You cannot analyze Tim Saudi's career
without taking this extended goodbye into account. And you've got
(10:22):
to be honest and admit that the last eighteen months
had been poor and he probably has not merited his
place in the team, certainly for the last six months.
So that's a really awkward part of the analysis that
has to go into an entire TIMSAUI picture. But we
(10:43):
also up a little bit from recency bias, and I
think at the moment we're looking too much at that
part and not enough at this magnificent foundation. You know
he'd laid for twelve years before before as I say,
this really awkward, painfully extracted goodbye.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, very well said. And you're right about the dates too.
You've got the bang. On the middle of two thousand
and nine he was part of that team that went
New England. He played a Test at Lord's or we'll
back to this current one to finish Dyland England five
without loss. You know, the way they advanced Test matches
so quickly, they could have three hundred by stumps, goodn't they?
What what would be a good result at stumps today
(11:21):
for New Zealand?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I think a good result for New Zealand would
be they've actually had some joy at getting wickets at
the top. And I think if that trend continues and
they get really wickets at the top. What's a really
good result for them is to actually ship away at
that midlorder like England had in New Zealand's midlorder, to
not let them get away, to have some to show
(11:46):
that they've got some plans in place for Harry Brooks aggression.
And I call it ego, and I don't mean ego
in a bad way when I'm talking about Harry brook
but the fact that he is the kind of the
big man at the crease. He wants to be the utter,
he wants to score the time. I just want to
see that New Zealand has been thinking about that. You
can counter that aggression with some well thought out plans.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
All right, well we'll see if that plays out. Tim
Saudi is about to take the ball from the Tim
South the end, So we'll let you get back to
your sports viewing. Dylan, thanks for your time today and
across the year. I just it just feels to me
as though a subscription to the Bounce Appeal says a
brilliant Christmas present for a sports loving family member. How
(12:31):
would someone arrange that?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
You're a good man plenty, Yep, it's pretty easy. You
would Google doing Cleaver dot subset dot com or just
Google doing Clever the Bounce. Go into any of the
last couple of newsletters and you'll see a button within
them that says Christmas Special twenty four Click on then subscribers.
(12:54):
It's reasonably intuitive once you get on there. It's just's
finding it, which is a papist say Dylan Cleaver and
the Bounce, and yeah, you're away brilliant.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It's well worth it. I can personally recommend it. God
on you mate, have a great Christmas. We'll catch up
in the new year.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Same to you all the.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Best, mate. Cheers, Dylan Clever. There, Yeah, the Bounce, it's
it's yeah, it's it's something quite different. It's a subscription
newsletter which lands in your inbox regularly and it's just terrific,
really really good the Bounce. It's called Dylan is one
of our foremost sports writers with a particular interesting cricket,
(13:34):
but there's all sorts in there. And yeah, if you've
got a sports loving family member who's hard to buy for,
this is a great Christmas present. So yeah, Dylan Cleaver
the Bounce, Google that you'll find your way and yeah,
and Dylan's just outlined it's fairly intuitive once you get there.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from news talk ZEDB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
As mentioned a short time ago, Mitchell Sanna out for
seventy six New Zealand all out for three hundred and
forty seven batting first against England in Hamilton, having been
sent into bat three four seven. I'm not sure whether
you'd be happy with that or having been one forty
one for one, would you feel it's an opportunity lost.
Let's bring in one of our leading sports writers, multi
(00:36):
award winner, editor of the superb subscriber newsletter The Bounce,
co host of the BYC podcast, Dylan Cleaver. Dylan, maybe
I'll just ask you that sent in, would you be
happy with three four seven or at one forty one
for one? Would you feel as though it is an
opportunity lost?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yes, really curious one. You'd have to as a Black
Cats fan, you'd have to feel reasonably satisfied about being
sent in and ending up with three four seven, particularly
how the rest of the series has gone. But then
you look one o five without loss and you're thinking
cheaper that there's a four point fifty on here if
they get their heads down. So that middle section of
(01:16):
the innings was extremely disappointing, and in particular the modes
of dismissal were extremely disappointing. So on Ballance, I think
three four seven is slightly disappointing. But I go back
to that old old cricket cliche, which is you can
never tell the true nature of a wicket until both
teams have bettered on it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
All right, we're going to find that out in the
next few hours or so. You mentioned the middle order, Ravendra, Mitchell, Blundell, Phillips.
I think all got out to poor shot yesterday. What
did you make of their respective downfalls.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah, look, I haven't done a better word for it
than you just mentioned, which is poor. I think there
was poor thinking and that was poorly executed shot making.
And I guess the thing that was really disappointing about
it was that Ben Stokes signposted what they were trying
to do. He'd obviously recognized that the wicket was two paces,
particularly at one end. I think when you bowl from
(02:09):
the temporarily named tim South end, I think there's a
real trampoline bounce and patches there which can catch you up.
So he stacked that off side field. He essentially put
a great wall of China off side field bowlers bled
a lot of whip balls, offering the black Cats the
(02:30):
opportunity to try and score through that field, and they
just kept taking him up on the offer. I thought
Ratchenravender has had a I mean, he's an immense talent.
Here's the future. I don't want to take away from
that at all, but I think he's had a very
poor series in terms of his just as thought processes
at decrease. He's been going out to poor shots. Daryl
(02:50):
Mitchell doesn't look quite the same player he did, even
sort of a twelve months ago blunded forms being the
World Documentaris, although he had that kind of cathartic sentry
in the Lost Cause down on the basin, And yeah,
Glen Phillip's chipping to deep point was perhaps the worst
shot of the lot. And yeah, it was a shame
(03:12):
because he sometimes doesn't get a lot of opportunities, Glen Fillips,
because he's often kind of batting and trying to manipulate
the tail. But this was definitely an opportunity lost.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
You said in your newsletter yesterday that these things are
always easier to say with the benefit of hindsight. But
you don't need to rewrite history to comes to the
conclusion that finding a place for Will Young from the
outset of this series could have been useful. And then
you went through the possibilities for how you could shoe
hornhim into the team. It is a wonderful thing hindsight.
(03:45):
What did you make of Will Gang's batting yesterday?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Very pleasant, very well young. It's and I mean that
in both positives in slightly negative way. I think he's
a terrific talent who hasn't been utilized properly by new
selling cricket, the high performance. I really do think he's
been let down a lot of it time shuffled up
and down the order. He's never really been allowed to
(04:10):
establish himself. Probably goes to the probably every time he
goes to the crease, he's pretty much thinking, if I
don't do something here, this could be my last bat
for a while. And that's another great way to play cricket.
When you look at the faith pulling other people, I
think you get I think you get results by giving
players confidence. Having said that he's played a lot of
(04:31):
these extended cameos, he hasn't actually grasped that opportunity as
fleeting as been and I thought yesterday was just that
perfect example of that, where he played some lovely shots.
He's got shots all around the wicket. A couple of
those drives down the ground were you know, as good
as what came Williamson can produce. And I can't think
(04:52):
of a kind of higher accolade than that, really, And
yet you look at the scoreboard and it's forty two
and he's out and he got a good ball, so
he wasn't one of the ones that wafted his wicked
away into the into the off side field. He got
a genuinely good ballding nick to slip. And that happens
when you open the banning. And that's also why I
don't think it means it's ideal spot. But yeah, I
(05:14):
mean one hundred ground opening partnership with Latham, who also
looked really good. It does make you wonder, I mean,
with the incumbent sitting back and wing and is there
a route back to to the team to Devin Conway.
I certainly think there is, but as an opening bedder,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And this is as you say, we can't change the past,
but we can, you know, have a look at what
might happen in the future. And yeah, the last you're
so right about Will Young in terms of as he
called them, cameos his last few mornings forty two, fifty one,
seventy one, twenty three, eighteen forty eight, not out thirty three.
That takes us through the Indian Series obviously, and the
first innings here in Hamilton. I just worried Dylan that,
(05:57):
you know, when Test cricket rolls around again, it'll all
be forgotten again, you know, don't play Test matchers again.
To what middle of next year, I feel like Will
Young won't be in that team.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, I kind of think he will be. He is contract,
he's centrally contracted. He wants to play for New Zealand
as far as someone where he's kind of shown no
inclination to join the franchise circuit, although he certainly got
the skills to play in those as a gap feeling.
(06:30):
It's not based on anything other than I kind of
get the feeling that this might be his time. Now.
This is at the end of a World Test Championship cycle.
They need to think ahead to the next World Tests
Championship cycle. The Conway Latham Partnership feels broken. It feels
irreparably broken. Again. I say this kind of untend to
(06:55):
hook slightly because I don't think opening as will Young's
best position, But based on what happened Yester, I kind
of feel like they will start the next World Test
Championship cycle with Young Lathan as the opel pair.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
It just occurred to me when I was at the
scoreboard earlier that England didn't use their spinner Shower Bashia
at all. I don't think he's injured as he they
went what ninety seven overs without using their spinner.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, I think they will have definitely have plans for
him playing a big role in the third innings of
this match, and there was always just enough encouragement and
sometimes more than just enough encouragement actually keep the seamas on.
I thought Ben Stokes bowled some peerlas. I mean his figures.
I think he took one for ninety one at the
end whish was really unfeathering, but he was swinging it
(07:44):
around corners both ways, which again was probably encouragement to
keep the seamas on. So yeah, I wouldn't read too
much into that. I will see what approached John Lathan
takes where you know, he's got Satnuel in the eleven
who's obviously on the high. Having given that the last
time he bowled in the Test, he came away with
thirteen wickets and he just played potentially his best Test
(08:09):
and things. I know he has got a Test one
hundred against England, but there was not a very very
very flat wicket at mouth Longanui. I think he bettered
superbly here, so his confidence is probably as high as
it's ever been in the Test arena.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
How will you remember Tim Saudi as a Test cricketer.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I personally remember him as absolutely great, and maybe maybe
less as an absolute individual great, certainly as one half
of an all time great opening goal in partnership. I
thought the Saudi right arm or way swing from one
end and Trent Bolt left arm from the other was,
(08:52):
you know, honest day, it was just a joy to watch.
That's how I'll remember him. I remember him interestingly enough.
I was on his first overseas away tour. Now as
a player, I must quick the ad, but I was
bardder The Black Cats taught to England in two thousand
and eight. I'm pretty sure I've got the date right there,
and it was the first overseas far away, and he
(09:16):
just looked like this. It sounds like kinder, I don't
really mean it this way. It's this kind of goofy
country kid who was living his dream and then he
actually realized that that's exactly what he was. He was
this country kid. He became far as goofy as he
got older, but he was this country kid living in
his dream. And all he ever wanted to do was
(09:37):
bold for New Zealand and hit sixers. And he's lived
out that dream. And yeah, I think he's been a
magnificent servant. All is everyone to do is play for
New Zealand. He's never he's always taken up a central contract.
He plays the ND when he gets a chance, he
plays all three formats whenever he gets the chance. He
(09:58):
never turns down the opportunity to play. He's just been
a terrific servant in New zealing cricket who I think
a lot of the time is underappreciated. Having said that,
and you kind of knew there was back coming head
in there. You can't. You cannot analyze Tim Saudi's career
without taking this extended goodbye into account. And you've got
(10:22):
to be honest and admit that the last eighteen months
had been poor and he probably has not merited his
place in the team, certainly for the last six months.
So that's a really awkward part of the analysis that
has to go into an entire TIMSAUI picture. But we
(10:43):
also up a little bit from recency bias, and I
think at the moment we're looking too much at that
part and not enough at this magnificent foundation. You know
he'd laid for twelve years before before as I say,
this really awkward, painfully extracted goodbye.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, very well said. And you're right about the dates too.
You've got the bang. On the middle of two thousand
and nine he was part of that team that went
New England. He played a Test at Lord's or we'll
back to this current one to finish Dyland England five
without loss. You know, the way they advanced Test matches
so quickly, they could have three hundred by stumps, goodn't they?
What what would be a good result at stumps today
(11:21):
for New Zealand?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I think a good result for New Zealand would
be they've actually had some joy at getting wickets at
the top. And I think if that trend continues and
they get really wickets at the top. What's a really
good result for them is to actually ship away at
that midlorder like England had in New Zealand's midlorder, to
not let them get away, to have some to show
(11:46):
that they've got some plans in place for Harry Brooks aggression.
And I call it ego, and I don't mean ego
in a bad way when I'm talking about Harry brook
but the fact that he is the kind of the
big man at the crease. He wants to be the utter,
he wants to score the time. I just want to
see that New Zealand has been thinking about that. You
can counter that aggression with some well thought out plans.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
All right, well we'll see if that plays out. Tim
Saudi is about to take the ball from the Tim
South the end, So we'll let you get back to
your sports viewing. Dylan, thanks for your time today and
across the year. I just it just feels to me
as though a subscription to the Bounce Appeal says a
brilliant Christmas present for a sports loving family member. How
(12:31):
would someone arrange that?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
You're a good man plenty, Yep, it's pretty easy. You
would Google doing Cleaver dot subset dot com or just
Google doing Clever the Bounce. Go into any of the
last couple of newsletters and you'll see a button within
them that says Christmas Special twenty four Click on then subscribers.
(12:54):
It's reasonably intuitive once you get on there. It's just's
finding it, which is a papist say Dylan Cleaver and
the Bounce, and yeah, you're away brilliant.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
It's well worth it. I can personally recommend it. God
on you mate, have a great Christmas. We'll catch up
in the new year.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Same to you all the.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Best, mate. Cheers, Dylan Clever. There, Yeah, the Bounce, it's
it's yeah, it's it's something quite different. It's a subscription
newsletter which lands in your inbox regularly and it's just terrific,
really really good the Bounce. It's called Dylan is one
of our foremost sports writers with a particular interesting cricket,
(13:34):
but there's all sorts in there. And yeah, if you've
got a sports loving family member who's hard to buy for,
this is a great Christmas present. So yeah, Dylan Cleaver
the Bounce, Google that you'll find your way and yeah,
and Dylan's just outlined it's fairly intuitive once you get there.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.