England Rugby World Cup champion Ben Cohen has revealed that he sold his winner’s medal to survive financial struggles during Covid-19.
In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, the former winger revealed that winning a World Cup 'meant everything', but it didn't set him up for the real world after his retirement.
Former rugby player Tim Bateman joined Piney to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zedb.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Dart with intriguing and slightly troubling news this week two
thousand and three. England rugby World Cup winner Ben Cohen
revealed this week he sold his World Cup winner's medal
in order to survive financial struggles. During COVID nineteen. Ben
Cohen played fifty seven tests for England, started in the
(00:35):
two thousand and three final victory over Australia in Sydney.
Also played a couple of matches for the British and
Irish Lions. In two thousand and one, in a newspaper interview,
Ben Cohen talked about his post career struggles, including selling
his winner's medal in order to help relieve financial pressure
on he and his family. Now it again opened up
(00:56):
the ongoing discussion of the challenges of transitioning from life
as a professional sportsperson to life beyond that stage of life.
Bateman played professional rugby for nearly two decades with the
Crusaders and the Hurricanes, the Bolt of All Blacks and
we captain. He also had time in Japan and has
been a prominent voice in the space in both physical
(01:18):
and mental wellness, and he joins us Now, Tim, thanks
for taking the time to discuss this topic. It's an
important one.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Do you think that stories like ben Cohens perhaps a
little bit more common than we think?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well, they really are, aren't they, Which is just such
a shame. You know, it's an unbelievably sad story. But
it's not abnormal, is it. You know, we've all heard
stories like this and it's not a new thing either,
something that's been around a long time, and it crosses
codes and in nextally crosses all industries. You know, supports
obviously highlighted a lot more, but it's necessarily so I mean,
that whole financial management sort of side of things, it's
(01:55):
done right. Ideally you wouldn't be in a situation like
he's just been in. So yeah, it's really unfortunate that
we heard much too much of it, don't.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
We Yep, we do. We do want to down too
that financial side of things and others in a moment,
but in very broad terms, how challenging is the move
from professional sport to life after that?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yes, I mean it is a challenge. I mean, once
you know, I know this is not the only challenge.
It's not a unique challenge. Everyone has challenges in life,
but it really is a difficult transition. It's really hard
to sort of explain all the different facets that that
you sort of have to consider, so just to chuck
a couple out there. So physical, it's like significant changes physically.
(02:37):
I mean, you know, I played professional for sivent teen
years and my work was training, so literally I turned up.
I had people guiding me through being as healthy as
I possibly could be physically strong, fast, and the flow
and effects of that that move into sort of that
mental space as well. But you've also got a lot
of mental support around you with me to skill coaches
and stuff, you know, mentors and whatnot that are really
(03:00):
shaping that. And all of a sudden, it's like a
stop mark that happens on those two things immediately, you know,
And all of a sudden you've got to figure that out,
you know, and you can do nothing, you know, and
there'll be consequences for that. You don't have to continue
obviously train like professional athlete. But one thing I always
sort of try and courage people to do is find
a way that you can stay active physically, because you
can underestimate what that's doing to you, both physically and mentally.
(03:21):
But there's a number of other sort of factors too
that we can discuss that. Yeah, those two are real
obvious ones. You leave an environment where you really looked
after physically and mentally, and all of a sudden, Yeah,
you're sort of out on your own. Things are a
little bit different.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, and there two of six pillars you talked about
on a terrific podcast I listened to a little while
ago with James Marshall about the six important pillars for
transition success. You've mentioned physical self and mental health, social
well being, financial structure, and passion or purpose with the others.
Are there any of those two that are more common
among retiring athletes than perhaps some of the others.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Well, yeah, it's cool. For me. Was sort of the
framework through which I can sort of see things. So
take social for example. You know, like the reality is
in a rug or any sort of higherfluence sport environment
with a group of like minded people, and you're having
a lot of fun together every day. You know, you
see all the serious stuff that's going on, but also
you've got this real sort of social connection, Like I
(04:21):
could travel up to Japan and all of a sudden,
I've got forty like minded people that I'm working together
with every day. Once again, you transition out of that,
and it's not as if that's there's no one that
you can hang out with socially, but it's just a
different dynamic and so you have to make adjustments to that.
So once again, what I always recommend players, you keep
a really good social network out of the game, out
(04:42):
of whatever you're doing, so when that leaves, you're sort
of not left time and dry, because it is It's
funny that you know, the year after IDT to Crusade,
it it just feels a little bit different. Messages rich
among it, even though we're close friends, and it just
does it feels like, you know, you're that sort of
guy clinging on from the outskirts, and so even though
you've built these really strong connections, it's just a little
bit different. But in financial obviously, it's that we're touching
(05:04):
on here, and there's a big, a big transition around finances,
and I'm firmly of the view that you know, it
shouldn't be a feeling, you know, the money that you
can make as a ROBI players shouldn't be the only
time that you can make that sort of money. If
you set things up well and you do things honestly,
you should be able to sort of chase another nuntin.
But I mean those last two that you sort of
(05:26):
touched on just now, that sort of passion and purpose
and structure that is that that's a really important one
that she was down at Otaio Correction facility speaking with
some of the inmates that are transitioning out, and this
is the two or the structure one for them is
a real big one. So like as a rugby player,
I could tell you what I was going to be
doing in three years time, what I was going to
(05:47):
be eating, where I was going to be, who was
going to be worth of the things. And that provides
quite an element of certainty in your life that your
weeks and your years and your months are very very
structured once you when you leave, you've got to build
your own structure into your life. Well, when do you
find time for your family, When do you find time
to look after yourself physically? When do you find times
that be social? When do you how do you manage
all these things? And so it's optimized with a highfluence environment.
(06:11):
But you've got to figure all that stuff out for yourself.
So once again, it's just it's a transition that passion
and purpose piece very similar to the social You're in
an environment where people are really driven towards something and
you're on the shared mission to you every week, where
you're sort of almost like you go into war, you know,
and it just fosters a real sense of enjoyment and
(06:34):
passion for what you're doing. When you leave that, it's
not about you don't have to replace it to the
same group, but you've got to find something else that
you can sort of be passionate about or can chast
because I really think there's a lot of benefits that
come towards working, towards working on something or towards something
that you really care about.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So interesting, and I look at those six things, and
as you've outlined, they're all so important. I guess though
you could get by without, you know, having your mates
around or without having a particular purpose, but you need
to earn, don't you. Well most people do. There's very
few who who retire from professional sport with an enough
to not ever have to work again. What can be
better done? To help athletes, you know, I guess, not
(07:13):
have to face those financial challenges, but also to help
alleviate them.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, I mean, I'm probably a little bit different to
how some people would view this, but I'm a massive
fan of sort of personal accountability, personal responsibility. And the
reality is is there is a lot of support out there,
and some players and athletes will choose to engage with
it more than others, and you know, and that's and
that's once again, it's not it's not to throw anyone
(07:40):
under the bus, and that life is challenging for everyone.
But at the same time, like your life is discerned
by what you choose to put in and where you
choose to put your focus. And so if you've had
zero time thinking about or planning for a change socially
or financially or physically, well whatever it is that's going on,
I mean, the reality is it's going to be harder.
That's that's just the way it falls out. And I mean,
(08:02):
I'm sure there's lots of things that that all organizations
can do to better support their people. So it's not
i it's not a complete blanket, but in my experience,
it's really got a bit an individual driven and the
support that you get from the organization that should almost
be a bonus. I think about when I first came
into a High performance to what it was like when
(08:24):
I left and we had professional development, managed to be
mental skills coaches, We had you know, would be put
on to the right people if we wanted doors open.
There was a whole network that you could access. But
the reality is it doesn't feel important at the time.
You're really just thinking about the game and the weekend,
and you've got ten guys behind you're wanting to take
your spot, So it doesn't become a real as never
(08:45):
seen as a real priority, until all of a sudden.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
It is, yeah, I've got written down here. I wonder
if players who are early in their careers are less
open to discussions of the sort because it just seems
so far away from them, Jim, doesn't it a twenty one,
twenty two year old player who all they're caring about
is exactly what you've outlined, playing their best, keeping their spot,
becoming an All Black, whatever it might be. Are players
early in their career is less open to discussions about
(09:11):
what happens post career.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Well, I think it's quite unique. Isn't it if you're
thinking about every other career. You know, you don't go
into your legal career or your teaching career having to
plan for your next career. Yeah, you're not thinking, actually
I need to think about what's going to happen next.
But so I think rugby is unique, well, hbsorts bater
is unique, and that there is always going to be
(09:33):
a finish line. This is, but it never really feels
like it. And I think, I mean, I know that
the induction they do at the ends are for all
new players. Is a huge focus on this. The reality is, guys,
the average lifespan of professional players in New Zealand, I
think it was three years when I was back back
when I was playing. It might have grown potentially for
(09:55):
four or five years, but really, really, you know, that's
the average life. So if you're thinking, well, some guys
are going to be here a year, some guys might
get to be here fifteen years, you know, some guys
are going to be out of here in a couple
of months. So it's I think that everyone's aware of it,
everyone understands it, but actually being able to practically take
steps to manage that transition. It's not. I don't think
(10:18):
it's as engaged with as it can be.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You're a parent. Do you think parents might be reticent
towards staring their their talented child towards a professional sporting
career because of what might happen to them beyond it.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I hope not. I really hope not. I mean, I
think I think, you know, once again, it's it's really
what you choose to put in and and and the
way you engage with anything that matters most, and the
opportunities that come and the experiences that you get to
have and hy sport are absolutely incredible. In fact, one
thing I would sort of love to say is I
(10:55):
think some of the skills that you acquire through professional
sport as they aren't recognized out of the game, which
is a real shame. Like some of the best leaders
I know and some of the most driven, some of
the guys that are super diligent and planning the communication
skills through the roof and are really able to inspire
(11:16):
and they it's super dedicated and discipline. All these skills
that in any in any career are really really important.
You can't build that into a CV, really, you know,
there's no there's no qualification that you get when you
leave the game that's recognized out of the game. So
I think, I mean, I think professional sporad is incredible
for the opportunities that you get, for the experiences that
(11:37):
you get to have. So if I was a parent
with the you know, I am a parent with young girls,
I would love them to want to choose to delve
into into professional squad, push themselves into a career, because
I really do think even if it's not professional, I
just think being engaged in sport, being a part of
a team, you know, where you've got this sort of
mission together. I just think there's so many upsides to
(11:58):
that that I hope people wouldn't be so hey, stay
o from it just in case you's successful, because it's
going to be a hard transition.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, fantastic topic. You've given us a terrific thought, Tim,
Thanks so much for giving us your time, mate, Thanks
for having me, No, thanks for joining us. Tim. Tim
Bateman there former top level rugby player for nearly two
decades with the Crusaders the Hurricanes played in Japan, Captain
the multi All Blacks. Good player but clearly a very
very intelligent bloke, articulate eloquent on this topic, which I've
(12:27):
always found fascinating, the transition and the challenges of transitioning
from being a professional sportsperson to the next part of
your life, because we all know that well for most
sports anyway, there are probably some exceptions where you can
play longer. But let's look at the contact sports like rugby, rugby,
(12:50):
league football, netball, hockey. You know, any sport you can
play professionally which is a physical sport. By the time
you reach your mid thirties, you're coming towards the end,
and there is a heck of a lot of life
left after that for you to negotiate and to navigate.
(13:11):
You might have some thoughts on this anything that resonated
with you there From Tim Bateman, I'd be keen to
kick this around with you, any personal experiences you've had.
And the question I asked there at the end, it
was something that was posed to me during the week
when we were thinking about this topic, is if your
child is a talented young sportsperson who has started to
(13:33):
think about the possibility of a life in professional sport,
would you be in any way reticent about that, in
any way worried that they will at some point if
they're successful and go on to be a pro athlete,
we'll have to transition out the other end into a productive, happy, successful,
(13:57):
safe life.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to news Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcas Asked on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from Newstalk zedb.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Dart with intriguing and slightly troubling news this week two
thousand and three. England rugby World Cup winner Ben Cohen
revealed this week he sold his World Cup winner's medal
in order to survive financial struggles. During COVID nineteen. Ben
Cohen played fifty seven tests for England, started in the
(00:35):
two thousand and three final victory over Australia in Sydney.
Also played a couple of matches for the British and
Irish Lions. In two thousand and one, in a newspaper interview,
Ben Cohen talked about his post career struggles, including selling
his winner's medal in order to help relieve financial pressure
on he and his family. Now it again opened up
(00:56):
the ongoing discussion of the challenges of transitioning from life
as a professional sportsperson to life beyond that stage of life.
Bateman played professional rugby for nearly two decades with the
Crusaders and the Hurricanes, the Bolt of All Blacks and
we captain. He also had time in Japan and has
been a prominent voice in the space in both physical
(01:18):
and mental wellness, and he joins us Now, Tim, thanks
for taking the time to discuss this topic. It's an
important one.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Do you think that stories like ben Cohens perhaps a
little bit more common than we think?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well, they really are, aren't they, Which is just such
a shame. You know, it's an unbelievably sad story. But
it's not abnormal, is it. You know, we've all heard
stories like this and it's not a new thing either,
something that's been around a long time, and it crosses
codes and in nextally crosses all industries. You know, supports
obviously highlighted a lot more, but it's necessarily so I mean,
that whole financial management sort of side of things, it's
(01:55):
done right. Ideally you wouldn't be in a situation like
he's just been in. So yeah, it's really unfortunate that
we heard much too much of it, don't.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
We Yep, we do. We do want to down too
that financial side of things and others in a moment,
but in very broad terms, how challenging is the move
from professional sport to life after that?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yes, I mean it is a challenge. I mean, once
you know, I know this is not the only challenge.
It's not a unique challenge. Everyone has challenges in life,
but it really is a difficult transition. It's really hard
to sort of explain all the different facets that that
you sort of have to consider, so just to chuck
a couple out there. So physical, it's like significant changes physically.
(02:37):
I mean, you know, I played professional for sivent teen
years and my work was training, so literally I turned up.
I had people guiding me through being as healthy as
I possibly could be physically strong, fast, and the flow
and effects of that that move into sort of that
mental space as well. But you've also got a lot
of mental support around you with me to skill coaches
and stuff, you know, mentors and whatnot that are really
(03:00):
shaping that. And all of a sudden, it's like a
stop mark that happens on those two things immediately, you know,
And all of a sudden you've got to figure that out,
you know, and you can do nothing, you know, and
there'll be consequences for that. You don't have to continue
obviously train like professional athlete. But one thing I always
sort of try and courage people to do is find
a way that you can stay active physically, because you
can underestimate what that's doing to you, both physically and mentally.
(03:21):
But there's a number of other sort of factors too
that we can discuss that. Yeah, those two are real
obvious ones. You leave an environment where you really looked
after physically and mentally, and all of a sudden, Yeah,
you're sort of out on your own. Things are a
little bit different.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, and there two of six pillars you talked about
on a terrific podcast I listened to a little while
ago with James Marshall about the six important pillars for
transition success. You've mentioned physical self and mental health, social
well being, financial structure, and passion or purpose with the others.
Are there any of those two that are more common
among retiring athletes than perhaps some of the others.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Well, yeah, it's cool. For me. Was sort of the
framework through which I can sort of see things. So
take social for example. You know, like the reality is
in a rug or any sort of higherfluence sport environment
with a group of like minded people, and you're having
a lot of fun together every day. You know, you
see all the serious stuff that's going on, but also
you've got this real sort of social connection, Like I
(04:21):
could travel up to Japan and all of a sudden,
I've got forty like minded people that I'm working together
with every day. Once again, you transition out of that,
and it's not as if that's there's no one that
you can hang out with socially, but it's just a
different dynamic and so you have to make adjustments to that.
So once again, what I always recommend players, you keep
a really good social network out of the game, out
(04:42):
of whatever you're doing, so when that leaves, you're sort
of not left time and dry, because it is It's
funny that you know, the year after IDT to Crusade,
it it just feels a little bit different. Messages rich
among it, even though we're close friends, and it just
does it feels like, you know, you're that sort of
guy clinging on from the outskirts, and so even though
you've built these really strong connections, it's just a little
bit different. But in financial obviously, it's that we're touching
(05:04):
on here, and there's a big, a big transition around finances,
and I'm firmly of the view that you know, it
shouldn't be a feeling, you know, the money that you
can make as a ROBI players shouldn't be the only
time that you can make that sort of money. If
you set things up well and you do things honestly,
you should be able to sort of chase another nuntin.
But I mean those last two that you sort of
(05:26):
touched on just now, that sort of passion and purpose
and structure that is that that's a really important one
that she was down at Otaio Correction facility speaking with
some of the inmates that are transitioning out, and this
is the two or the structure one for them is
a real big one. So like as a rugby player,
I could tell you what I was going to be
doing in three years time, what I was going to
(05:47):
be eating, where I was going to be, who was
going to be worth of the things. And that provides
quite an element of certainty in your life that your
weeks and your years and your months are very very
structured once you when you leave, you've got to build
your own structure into your life. Well, when do you
find time for your family, When do you find time
to look after yourself physically? When do you find times
that be social? When do you how do you manage
all these things? And so it's optimized with a highfluence environment.
(06:11):
But you've got to figure all that stuff out for yourself.
So once again, it's just it's a transition that passion
and purpose piece very similar to the social You're in
an environment where people are really driven towards something and
you're on the shared mission to you every week, where
you're sort of almost like you go into war, you know,
and it just fosters a real sense of enjoyment and
(06:34):
passion for what you're doing. When you leave that, it's
not about you don't have to replace it to the
same group, but you've got to find something else that
you can sort of be passionate about or can chast
because I really think there's a lot of benefits that
come towards working, towards working on something or towards something
that you really care about.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So interesting, and I look at those six things, and
as you've outlined, they're all so important. I guess though
you could get by without, you know, having your mates
around or without having a particular purpose, but you need
to earn, don't you. Well most people do. There's very
few who who retire from professional sport with an enough
to not ever have to work again. What can be
better done? To help athletes, you know, I guess, not
(07:13):
have to face those financial challenges, but also to help
alleviate them.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Well, I mean, I'm probably a little bit different to
how some people would view this, but I'm a massive
fan of sort of personal accountability, personal responsibility. And the
reality is is there is a lot of support out there,
and some players and athletes will choose to engage with
it more than others, and you know, and that's and
that's once again, it's not it's not to throw anyone
(07:40):
under the bus, and that life is challenging for everyone.
But at the same time, like your life is discerned
by what you choose to put in and where you
choose to put your focus. And so if you've had
zero time thinking about or planning for a change socially
or financially or physically, well whatever it is that's going on,
I mean, the reality is it's going to be harder.
That's that's just the way it falls out. And I mean,
(08:02):
I'm sure there's lots of things that that all organizations
can do to better support their people. So it's not
i it's not a complete blanket, but in my experience,
it's really got a bit an individual driven and the
support that you get from the organization that should almost
be a bonus. I think about when I first came
into a High performance to what it was like when
(08:24):
I left and we had professional development, managed to be
mental skills coaches, We had you know, would be put
on to the right people if we wanted doors open.
There was a whole network that you could access. But
the reality is it doesn't feel important at the time.
You're really just thinking about the game and the weekend,
and you've got ten guys behind you're wanting to take
your spot, So it doesn't become a real as never
(08:45):
seen as a real priority, until all of a sudden.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
It is, yeah, I've got written down here. I wonder
if players who are early in their careers are less
open to discussions of the sort because it just seems
so far away from them, Jim, doesn't it a twenty one,
twenty two year old player who all they're caring about
is exactly what you've outlined, playing their best, keeping their spot,
becoming an All Black, whatever it might be. Are players
early in their career is less open to discussions about
(09:11):
what happens post career.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Well, I think it's quite unique. Isn't it if you're
thinking about every other career. You know, you don't go
into your legal career or your teaching career having to
plan for your next career. Yeah, you're not thinking, actually
I need to think about what's going to happen next.
But so I think rugby is unique, well, hbsorts bater
is unique, and that there is always going to be
(09:33):
a finish line. This is, but it never really feels
like it. And I think, I mean, I know that
the induction they do at the ends are for all
new players. Is a huge focus on this. The reality is, guys,
the average lifespan of professional players in New Zealand, I
think it was three years when I was back back
when I was playing. It might have grown potentially for
(09:55):
four or five years, but really, really, you know, that's
the average life. So if you're thinking, well, some guys
are going to be here a year, some guys might
get to be here fifteen years, you know, some guys
are going to be out of here in a couple
of months. So it's I think that everyone's aware of it,
everyone understands it, but actually being able to practically take
steps to manage that transition. It's not. I don't think
(10:18):
it's as engaged with as it can be.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You're a parent. Do you think parents might be reticent
towards staring their their talented child towards a professional sporting
career because of what might happen to them beyond it.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I hope not. I really hope not. I mean, I
think I think, you know, once again, it's it's really
what you choose to put in and and and the
way you engage with anything that matters most, and the
opportunities that come and the experiences that you get to
have and hy sport are absolutely incredible. In fact, one
thing I would sort of love to say is I
(10:55):
think some of the skills that you acquire through professional
sport as they aren't recognized out of the game, which
is a real shame. Like some of the best leaders
I know and some of the most driven, some of
the guys that are super diligent and planning the communication
skills through the roof and are really able to inspire
(11:16):
and they it's super dedicated and discipline. All these skills
that in any in any career are really really important.
You can't build that into a CV, really, you know,
there's no there's no qualification that you get when you
leave the game that's recognized out of the game. So
I think, I mean, I think professional sporad is incredible
for the opportunities that you get, for the experiences that
(11:37):
you get to have. So if I was a parent
with the you know, I am a parent with young girls,
I would love them to want to choose to delve
into into professional squad, push themselves into a career, because
I really do think even if it's not professional, I
just think being engaged in sport, being a part of
a team, you know, where you've got this sort of
mission together. I just think there's so many upsides to
(11:58):
that that I hope people wouldn't be so hey, stay
o from it just in case you's successful, because it's
going to be a hard transition.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, fantastic topic. You've given us a terrific thought, Tim,
Thanks so much for giving us your time, mate, Thanks
for having me, No, thanks for joining us. Tim. Tim
Bateman there former top level rugby player for nearly two
decades with the Crusaders the Hurricanes played in Japan, Captain
the multi All Blacks. Good player but clearly a very
very intelligent bloke, articulate eloquent on this topic, which I've
(12:27):
always found fascinating, the transition and the challenges of transitioning
from being a professional sportsperson to the next part of
your life, because we all know that well for most
sports anyway, there are probably some exceptions where you can
play longer. But let's look at the contact sports like rugby, rugby,
(12:50):
league football, netball, hockey. You know, any sport you can
play professionally which is a physical sport. By the time
you reach your mid thirties, you're coming towards the end,
and there is a heck of a lot of life
left after that for you to negotiate and to navigate.
(13:11):
You might have some thoughts on this anything that resonated
with you there From Tim Bateman, I'd be keen to
kick this around with you, any personal experiences you've had.
And the question I asked there at the end, it
was something that was posed to me during the week
when we were thinking about this topic, is if your
child is a talented young sportsperson who has started to
(13:33):
think about the possibility of a life in professional sport,
would you be in any way reticent about that, in
any way worried that they will at some point if
they're successful and go on to be a pro athlete,
we'll have to transition out the other end into a productive, happy, successful,
(13:57):
safe life.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to news Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcas Asked on iHeartRadio
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