A call for New Zealand Rugby to protect referees more.
The Horowhenua Kapiti Rugby Union has postponed fixtures this weekend after a referee was so seriously abused he had to be escorted to his car over safety fears.
Last month, the union said in response to escalating abuse towards match officials – highlighted by a person threatening to stab a referee – that they would cancel all senior club games if behaviour didn’t improve.
Mike Hester, Participation Development Manager at NZ Rugby Union, joined Jason Pine to unpack the situation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
There's no grassroots rugby in the Holford of a Carpety
province this weekend after the Union made the decision to
cancel an entire round of fixtures. This after allegations of
abuse towards a match official in a secondary schools game
last weekend. The Union has followed through on their promise
of a month or so ago to do exactly this
(00:33):
following escalating abuse towards their match officials. He's CEO of
Hotiford to a Carpety Corey Kennett, on the incident that
led to this decision being made in a secondary school
game between Carpety College and Marna College last weekend.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
What I can say is it was abhorrent and the
abuse was from multiple layers. We're talking about people that
are at games, spectators, players, team team management, to the
point that at the end of the year game, the referee,
(01:09):
the good individuals, good public individuals. We're so concerned about
the referee safety that he was escorted to his car.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So that's Cory Kenned. He's holof a Carpety Chief executive.
Mike Hester is New Zealand Rugby's head of Rugby Participation
in Community Rugby, He joins us now, Mike, thanks for
taking the time for a chat this afternoon. Are you
in favor of the action that's been taken by the
holofin New a carpety union.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
In sure, Yes, we absolutely support the decision. As you've
alluded to in the frame up there, THEYD signal this
really clearly to the community about expectations and the consequences
of they didn't see improvements and it's a great shame
they've had to go to these links now to cancel
rugby this weekend. It is positive to say that they're
(01:58):
following through on that now.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Are they able to act unilaterally on this? Michael? Do
they need to get New Zealand Rugby approval of some
sort before then they can take this action?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
This fits entirely within their sort of jurisdiction responsible for
delivering rugby in their community and know best how to
deliver that as well, So that the short answer is
that they don't need to necessarily seek our approval for
such things. But they brilliant positively engage with us around
the issues have had over the last month. So comes
as no surprise.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Do you think other unions will consider following suit? Have
you heard anecdotally that others, having heard of hot to
a Carpody's stance a month ago and across this weekend,
we'll look to do something similar in their provinces.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I'm not sure that they necessarily will move to these links,
because it all depends on sort of what's happening locally
and where they're at. But certainly the provincial unions are
really well connected with each other and supportive of what
they're all trying to do, so they'll have a really
good understanding of what's led to this carpety and that
is certainly something that's open to them should they be
(03:07):
expressing sort of similar issues in the in the EPU.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Do you think that the fact that Holdforno a company
have done it will I don't know, open open the
door for others. It may set a precedent of sorts.
People might say, Okay, hey, they've done it, we're going
to do that as well, and we are going to
follow through with it.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I think it's obviously save ideally's going to save a
purpose for hotpena company's community around what's what's expected. But
also it will serve a wider message, I guess, for
other provincial unions and their communities around just what can
happen if if people don't stay above the line in
terms of their passion on sidelines and their attitudes towards
(03:46):
those that are involved with enabling the game. So to
some degree, this is an important decision for HK to make,
but we expect that or has some ramplications for others
around what might happen if it's done as a similar
improvement and behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Would you consider taking nationwide action of this type.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I think it'd probably be beyond sort of a sort
of level of appropriateness for ended art to consider doing that,
because the reality is we know that provincial union is
the best place to locally lead their game and lead
their communities. And so this is a really a decision
for PUS, but certainly would be there to support them
around the actions that they take. This is of course
(04:29):
a really extreme measure that Company I have had to
take in terms of the situation in their provincial union.
There's a whole range of other initiatives and programs of
work that also try to prevent it getting to this point.
So ideally those are the ones that are actually going
to ensure that we don't have to have a repeat that.
These would be metters for local provincial unions to decide.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Would it not show leadership from the national body if
you were to do something in a nationwide sense, Well,
there's certainly a.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Leadership role for us to play in this space, in
which it's around what are we doing in terms of
the safety rails at the top of the cliff to
ensure that the behavior doesn't get to this point. So
things around raising awareness and information, around the respect we
need to hold towards match officials and the difficult job
they've got to do, what good behavior looks like, and
(05:21):
rewarding that good behavior through to the sort of ambulance
at the bottom of the cliff, which is around holding
people to account for behavior and through judicial processes and
measures like this. So we provide sort of leadership around
a range of things that to use heavnty disposal but
probably not appropriate for them that had to take a
position where we would you actually sort of hold the
(05:43):
whole country to a ban If record.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And I'm only speaking hypothetically here, but if this works
in a hot of phenomer company and in six months
time or a year from now in the next winter season,
there is a drastic improvement there, and it's connected to
the sort of action that they've taken. Would you at
that point maybe look at doing something similar or even
taking the lessons you've learned here to other unions.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I think this is a good example of leadership being
applied at the local level. We often try to work
across the provincial unions to share what good practice looks
like or good case studies of initiatives that have worked.
So this is ideally going to be one that will
help that community sort of get back on a even keel.
(06:34):
And so this is that will probably hold as an
example of what provincial unions could do if they felt
it was necessary. But these are obviously really extreme steps
and we would prefer not to see that get to
a point where this was necessary.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Do you think abouse directed towards officials at grassroots level
has gotten worse?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
See, we do capture reporting around referee abuse cases, and
that's important for us to sort of understand the national level,
what's happening, where that might be happening, what we can
do to try and influence better outcomes there. Over recent years,
we have seen an increase and some of this is
(07:19):
sort of shoots back to COVID times where obviously during
those periods where societies go through a lot of different challenges,
and we did see and I think other sports saw
this as well, we did see some increases and sort
of sideline tension. Over recent years, we've seen those numbers
start to climb again. But what we have also done
is really encouraged reporting. We want to hear about referee abuse.
(07:42):
So it's hard to pinpoint exactly whether or not we're
seeing increasing issues on sidelines or if it's just a
symptom of increased reporting. What we do know though, is
that we deliver around six to seven thousand games of
rugby every weekend across the country, and last year I
think we had seventy four cases of referee abuse that
(08:02):
sort of met the threshold whether they needed to be reported.
As of this year at about sixty four cases, so
we expect that we'll probably surpass that number for this year.
But again that may well be because we are really
trying to encourage reporting in these cases so that we
have a better understanding what's going on. But if you
think of those in the number of games delivered in
the number of cases that have been reported, it's still
(08:22):
quite a small percentage, and so there are a lot
of games being played where people are really playing their
part and enjoying the game and respecting those that are
trying to enable it.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
What is the threshold, Mike, Is it when verbal becomes
physical or is it a couple of steps back from that?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
A couple of steps back from that in terms of,
you know, referee appealing and pressure that comes from sidelines
as people are passionate about the game, that's all part
of the game. But when it becomes personal and offensive
and insulting and threatening from closal from Afar that that's
when we want to start hearing about that because that's
but not behavior we want to see, and that's not
(09:00):
role modeling what we want people's experiences and are good
to look like.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
The incident that led to hot Off another company following
through in this instance was college game between Company College
and Marna College. Varying accounts about what played out. Have
you have you found out what happened at the end
of that game.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
There's a judicial process that's underway at the moment, and
that the purpose of that is to get to the
bottom of what happened in terms of who needs to
be how accountable for directions. So we need to let
that run its course, and that's led locally bypany so's
that's for them to determine and they'll report that in
time when they've got to the bottom of the estenishal effects.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I'm sure you've heard as I have, as I say,
varying reports here. How do you and I know you're
not running the investigation that's done by hodophon of a company,
But how do you get to the bottom of it?
Because by the sounds of it, here's what I've heard, Mike,
is that the referee is getting a lot of verbal
has got frustrated with it all. The game's gone over
(10:01):
time and Carpany of scored a try which is won
in the match, and frustration has boiled over. There may
or may not have been pushed and shove on both sides.
So how do you actually get to the bottom of
what's happened here or do you just say, you know what,
regardless of the situation, there shouldn't be pushed and shove
or verbal threats coming towards the referee.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Yeah, so there be the purpose of the judicial investigation,
which will be handled by the local union that they're
supported and doing this. We provide some support to them
around how they do that, to establish all those facts
and then who needs to be how responsible really, So
that's effectively how that will work, and that happens in
any cases from foul play to these sort of incidents
(10:45):
around the country. Not every weekend, but certainly there'll be
instances where the judicial processes need to kick in, and
that's what will happen in this case.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And just back to the numbers you go before about
I think you said seventy four cases of complaints being escalated.
I mean, that's a very small percentage, as you've said,
isn't it when you consider there's seven thousand games in
a weekend. So how do you correlate that with canceling
a whole weekends worth of rugby, which affects hundreds of people,
(11:14):
young and old because of the actions of so few.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, So, as I said, we've been trying to encourage
more reporting and so HK have their own sense of
what's happening in their community. That obviously led to the
warning that they issued some weeks ago now about wanting
to see improvements and behavior. So they've taken the decision
based on the evidence that they've got and reports they've
got around what's been happening in their community. So it's
(11:40):
a decision. We're back, and we believe that they've got
all the evidence that they need to make that decision.
What we're talking about really is the national reporting and
so trying to see increased reporting flowing through to ends
that are so that we can sort of help the
US with trying to determine exactly what can we do
and what are the trends that are coming through that
we need to adduce, and how.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Challenging is recruitment and retention of referees anyway, without the
sort of.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Thing, yeah, these things sooner don't help. It's a difficult
job being in the middle trying to enable the game.
And we have a lot of referee volunteers that are
giving out their time to service the game and a
lot of them are reporting. You know, it's really rewarding
and satisfying experience. So this really takes the gloss off it,
(12:25):
and so it doesn't help with retention. It doesn't help
with recruitment. We have certainly got our own share of
recruitment challenges. There no secret about that. We've had a
decrease in numbers that sort of pre COVID that we're
working to address with the provincial union. So there's a
number of initiatives underway, both from a recruitment perspective, but
also how do we improve the retention of our officials.
(12:48):
So there's program from trying to showcase the great opportunities
that go with refereeing. So we've got some excellent role
models both in the men's women's space that showcase that pathway.
We're trying to show stories around how valuable rewarding it
is to be able to participate within the white lines
on a Saturday delivering the game, and then also what
(13:10):
are the opportunities for young women to get involved in
for sharing. So there's quite a lot of programs work underway,
both in terms of recruitment and also retention, but they
will take time because there's no silver bullet with a
space that is a long investment.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
All right, we'll keep eyes on the impact that this
action has in the Holophinemer Company catchment. Thanks so much
for joining us this afternoon, Mike, really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Thicky.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Thank you Mike. Mike Kester, New Zealand Rugby's head of
Rugby Participation at community level. Your Chance to React Now
twelve twenty four oh eight one hundred and eighty ten
eighty Sideline Abuse of officials at grassroots Sport.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Off for more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen
live to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
There's no grassroots rugby in the Holford of a Carpety
province this weekend after the Union made the decision to
cancel an entire round of fixtures. This after allegations of
abuse towards a match official in a secondary schools game
last weekend. The Union has followed through on their promise
of a month or so ago to do exactly this
(00:33):
following escalating abuse towards their match officials. He's CEO of
Hotiford to a Carpety Corey Kennett, on the incident that
led to this decision being made in a secondary school
game between Carpety College and Marna College last weekend.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
What I can say is it was abhorrent and the
abuse was from multiple layers. We're talking about people that
are at games, spectators, players, team team management, to the
point that at the end of the year game, the referee,
(01:09):
the good individuals, good public individuals. We're so concerned about
the referee safety that he was escorted to his car.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So that's Cory Kenned. He's holof a Carpety Chief executive.
Mike Hester is New Zealand Rugby's head of Rugby Participation
in Community Rugby, He joins us now, Mike, thanks for
taking the time for a chat this afternoon. Are you
in favor of the action that's been taken by the
holofin New a carpety union.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
In sure, Yes, we absolutely support the decision. As you've
alluded to in the frame up there, THEYD signal this
really clearly to the community about expectations and the consequences
of they didn't see improvements and it's a great shame
they've had to go to these links now to cancel
rugby this weekend. It is positive to say that they're
(01:58):
following through on that now.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Are they able to act unilaterally on this? Michael? Do
they need to get New Zealand Rugby approval of some
sort before then they can take this action?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
This fits entirely within their sort of jurisdiction responsible for
delivering rugby in their community and know best how to
deliver that as well, So that the short answer is
that they don't need to necessarily seek our approval for
such things. But they brilliant positively engage with us around
the issues have had over the last month. So comes
as no surprise.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Do you think other unions will consider following suit? Have
you heard anecdotally that others, having heard of hot to
a Carpody's stance a month ago and across this weekend,
we'll look to do something similar in their provinces.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I'm not sure that they necessarily will move to these links,
because it all depends on sort of what's happening locally
and where they're at. But certainly the provincial unions are
really well connected with each other and supportive of what
they're all trying to do, so they'll have a really
good understanding of what's led to this carpety and that
is certainly something that's open to them should they be
(03:07):
expressing sort of similar issues in the in the EPU.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Do you think that the fact that Holdforno a company
have done it will I don't know, open open the
door for others. It may set a precedent of sorts.
People might say, Okay, hey, they've done it, we're going
to do that as well, and we are going to
follow through with it.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I think it's obviously save ideally's going to save a
purpose for hotpena company's community around what's what's expected. But
also it will serve a wider message, I guess, for
other provincial unions and their communities around just what can
happen if if people don't stay above the line in
terms of their passion on sidelines and their attitudes towards
(03:46):
those that are involved with enabling the game. So to
some degree, this is an important decision for HK to make,
but we expect that or has some ramplications for others
around what might happen if it's done as a similar
improvement and behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Would you consider taking nationwide action of this type.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I think it'd probably be beyond sort of a sort
of level of appropriateness for ended art to consider doing that,
because the reality is we know that provincial union is
the best place to locally lead their game and lead
their communities. And so this is a really a decision
for PUS, but certainly would be there to support them
around the actions that they take. This is of course
(04:29):
a really extreme measure that Company I have had to
take in terms of the situation in their provincial union.
There's a whole range of other initiatives and programs of
work that also try to prevent it getting to this point.
So ideally those are the ones that are actually going
to ensure that we don't have to have a repeat that.
These would be metters for local provincial unions to decide.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Would it not show leadership from the national body if
you were to do something in a nationwide sense, Well,
there's certainly a.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Leadership role for us to play in this space, in
which it's around what are we doing in terms of
the safety rails at the top of the cliff to
ensure that the behavior doesn't get to this point. So
things around raising awareness and information, around the respect we
need to hold towards match officials and the difficult job
they've got to do, what good behavior looks like, and
(05:21):
rewarding that good behavior through to the sort of ambulance
at the bottom of the cliff, which is around holding
people to account for behavior and through judicial processes and
measures like this. So we provide sort of leadership around
a range of things that to use heavnty disposal but
probably not appropriate for them that had to take a
position where we would you actually sort of hold the
(05:43):
whole country to a ban If record.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And I'm only speaking hypothetically here, but if this works
in a hot of phenomer company and in six months
time or a year from now in the next winter season,
there is a drastic improvement there, and it's connected to
the sort of action that they've taken. Would you at
that point maybe look at doing something similar or even
taking the lessons you've learned here to other unions.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I think this is a good example of leadership being
applied at the local level. We often try to work
across the provincial unions to share what good practice looks
like or good case studies of initiatives that have worked.
So this is ideally going to be one that will
help that community sort of get back on a even keel.
(06:34):
And so this is that will probably hold as an
example of what provincial unions could do if they felt
it was necessary. But these are obviously really extreme steps
and we would prefer not to see that get to
a point where this was necessary.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Do you think abouse directed towards officials at grassroots level
has gotten worse?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
See, we do capture reporting around referee abuse cases, and
that's important for us to sort of understand the national level,
what's happening, where that might be happening, what we can
do to try and influence better outcomes there. Over recent years,
we have seen an increase and some of this is
(07:19):
sort of shoots back to COVID times where obviously during
those periods where societies go through a lot of different challenges,
and we did see and I think other sports saw
this as well, we did see some increases and sort
of sideline tension. Over recent years, we've seen those numbers
start to climb again. But what we have also done
is really encouraged reporting. We want to hear about referee abuse.
(07:42):
So it's hard to pinpoint exactly whether or not we're
seeing increasing issues on sidelines or if it's just a
symptom of increased reporting. What we do know though, is
that we deliver around six to seven thousand games of
rugby every weekend across the country, and last year I
think we had seventy four cases of referee abuse that
(08:02):
sort of met the threshold whether they needed to be reported.
As of this year at about sixty four cases, so
we expect that we'll probably surpass that number for this year.
But again that may well be because we are really
trying to encourage reporting in these cases so that we
have a better understanding what's going on. But if you
think of those in the number of games delivered in
the number of cases that have been reported, it's still
(08:22):
quite a small percentage, and so there are a lot
of games being played where people are really playing their
part and enjoying the game and respecting those that are
trying to enable it.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
What is the threshold, Mike, Is it when verbal becomes
physical or is it a couple of steps back from that?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
A couple of steps back from that in terms of,
you know, referee appealing and pressure that comes from sidelines
as people are passionate about the game, that's all part
of the game. But when it becomes personal and offensive
and insulting and threatening from closal from Afar that that's
when we want to start hearing about that because that's
but not behavior we want to see, and that's not
(09:00):
role modeling what we want people's experiences and are good
to look like.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
The incident that led to hot Off another company following
through in this instance was college game between Company College
and Marna College. Varying accounts about what played out. Have
you have you found out what happened at the end
of that game.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
There's a judicial process that's underway at the moment, and
that the purpose of that is to get to the
bottom of what happened in terms of who needs to
be how accountable for directions. So we need to let
that run its course, and that's led locally bypany so's
that's for them to determine and they'll report that in
time when they've got to the bottom of the estenishal effects.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I'm sure you've heard as I have, as I say,
varying reports here. How do you and I know you're
not running the investigation that's done by hodophon of a company,
But how do you get to the bottom of it?
Because by the sounds of it, here's what I've heard, Mike,
is that the referee is getting a lot of verbal
has got frustrated with it all. The game's gone over
(10:01):
time and Carpany of scored a try which is won
in the match, and frustration has boiled over. There may
or may not have been pushed and shove on both sides.
So how do you actually get to the bottom of
what's happened here or do you just say, you know what,
regardless of the situation, there shouldn't be pushed and shove
or verbal threats coming towards the referee.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Yeah, so there be the purpose of the judicial investigation,
which will be handled by the local union that they're
supported and doing this. We provide some support to them
around how they do that, to establish all those facts
and then who needs to be how responsible really, So
that's effectively how that will work, and that happens in
any cases from foul play to these sort of incidents
(10:45):
around the country. Not every weekend, but certainly there'll be
instances where the judicial processes need to kick in, and
that's what will happen in this case.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And just back to the numbers you go before about
I think you said seventy four cases of complaints being escalated.
I mean, that's a very small percentage, as you've said,
isn't it when you consider there's seven thousand games in
a weekend. So how do you correlate that with canceling
a whole weekends worth of rugby, which affects hundreds of people,
(11:14):
young and old because of the actions of so few.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, So, as I said, we've been trying to encourage
more reporting and so HK have their own sense of
what's happening in their community. That obviously led to the
warning that they issued some weeks ago now about wanting
to see improvements and behavior. So they've taken the decision
based on the evidence that they've got and reports they've
got around what's been happening in their community. So it's
(11:40):
a decision. We're back, and we believe that they've got
all the evidence that they need to make that decision.
What we're talking about really is the national reporting and
so trying to see increased reporting flowing through to ends
that are so that we can sort of help the
US with trying to determine exactly what can we do
and what are the trends that are coming through that
we need to adduce, and how.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Challenging is recruitment and retention of referees anyway, without the
sort of.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Thing, yeah, these things sooner don't help. It's a difficult
job being in the middle trying to enable the game.
And we have a lot of referee volunteers that are
giving out their time to service the game and a
lot of them are reporting. You know, it's really rewarding
and satisfying experience. So this really takes the gloss off it,
(12:25):
and so it doesn't help with retention. It doesn't help
with recruitment. We have certainly got our own share of
recruitment challenges. There no secret about that. We've had a
decrease in numbers that sort of pre COVID that we're
working to address with the provincial union. So there's a
number of initiatives underway, both from a recruitment perspective, but
also how do we improve the retention of our officials.
(12:48):
So there's program from trying to showcase the great opportunities
that go with refereeing. So we've got some excellent role
models both in the men's women's space that showcase that pathway.
We're trying to show stories around how valuable rewarding it
is to be able to participate within the white lines
on a Saturday delivering the game, and then also what
(13:10):
are the opportunities for young women to get involved in
for sharing. So there's quite a lot of programs work underway,
both in terms of recruitment and also retention, but they
will take time because there's no silver bullet with a
space that is a long investment.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
All right, we'll keep eyes on the impact that this
action has in the Holophinemer Company catchment. Thanks so much
for joining us this afternoon, Mike, really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Thicky.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Thank you Mike. Mike Kester, New Zealand Rugby's head of
Rugby Participation at community level. Your Chance to React Now
twelve twenty four oh eight one hundred and eighty ten
eighty Sideline Abuse of officials at grassroots Sport.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Off for more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen
live to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com