July 11, 2025 • 8 mins
France have significantly re-worked their line-up for tonight's second test, but All Blacks coach Scott Robertson believes the narrative of them being a B-team has come to an end.
Despite missing most of their front-liners, the tourists only suffered a four-point loss in the Dunedin opener.
The French have made 10 changes for the rematch in Wellington.
Former All Black Victor Vito joined Piney to preview the second clash.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from News Talks B Victor.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Victor played thirty three test matches for the All Blacks,
a double World Cup winner twenty eleven and twenty fifteen. Victor,
thanks for joining us on the show. You were one
of very few players who started for the All Blacks
in all three loose forward positions. So once you get
out there, how different are the three roles in the
heat of the battle?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
I think the similarities would be that at the end
of the day, you've got to bring the physical intensity,
whether that's with the ball in hand or obviously in
the defensive line, but the roles themselves. In my day anyway,
it was pretty was quite different.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Six.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
You are a lot more of the enforcer, the one
that was able to stem the flow of if the
opposition forward started getting a roll on all of a sudden,
you see that six fly out and level them and
basically put us on the front.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Foot again and just be their physical presence there.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
And then the several would be more of a fetchure
and a connector with interconnecting link play providing you know,
just all that kind of between the backs of the board,
and then the number eight would be a lot more
across the lineouts. I guess we had to agreed as
well as the fact that they're more responsible to fall
on hand and potentially.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Helping with backfield cover and launching counter attacks.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
So yeah, similar roles in terms of the physical presence
that they need to have on both sides of the board,
but quite different in terms of what they look to bring.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Did you have a preference, victor what was your absolute preference?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I think my absolute preference would have always been number eight.
I love playing eight with the Canes, but you know,
as a history would tell obviously, coming through with a
team like Richie, Kieran and Jerome on the flanks, it.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Just made me just slid on wherever I could.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So you look at the current squad then, and you
talked about, you know, the similarities and the differences. Does
it really matter which number Artie Savia wears. He's been
wearing eight, He's seven tonight and has been for more
one of PACIFICA. Does it really matter which number he
has on?
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I think with the way that they're playing the game now,
I don't think so, not as much. I think he's
going to be able to pretty much come under his
presence from wherever he is.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I mean, he's always going to be that seven might.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Give him a little bit more of a of an
owners to go in there over the ball and try
to steal everything, but like that's that's what he does anyway,
even when he's got the eight jersey so and the
ball in hand, being a big carrier for the team,
that doesn't change, you know, you know to ball, he's
obviously a good carrier as well, but you'll have a
few line our responsibilities, whereas Artie and Christian will probably
(02:35):
be taking more of the lion's shot of the carrying.
So it'll be just interesting to see.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
How how we help it pans out.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
But I'm pretty sure he can do whether it's seven
or eight. Artie will just keep leading from the front.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And did you mentioned too there? What do you make
of the I guess it's an experiment to play him
at six and see how he goes there.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, look at the end of the days, you know,
it's a freak.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So he's able to He's obviously giving us that aerial
advantage as well with the with the Lucy's but you
know he's he's shown, you know, he's scored some some
pretty good tries with an open spaces. It's just that
just out of the edge of the physicality too, because
he's got it in him, and it's just something that
that takes time. You know, when I thought to Jerome
as well, that it took him a bit of time
(03:16):
to find because footing with their physical presence, and even
myself was the exact same thing. So it's at some
stage you just got to give someone the time to
grow into that role. And because that's something that you know,
any all black team lose Ford Trio or even Ford
Peck will always needs as their physical dominance. And that's
definitely something that we're obviously just the working.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
How do you develop it? But how do you how
do you work on physicality.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Love?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Obviously it's just not so much time of the gym,
but just time on the track and just confidence with
the guys in and around you. It's a real understanding
of your role. It's it's a whole bunch of stuff,
but most of it is just maturity really. You know,
when you're in your twenties, you can you know, get
tough and then you come and come across come across
a farmer and you find out you're not so tough anymore,
(04:04):
you know. So it's just the maturity of being in
there long enough to be able to cut your teeth
and know where you can and where you should be.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Oh yes, at the right time.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
What have you made of duplass Kalifi's season, which has
led to his All Blacks call up.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Oh look, he's been knocking on the door for a
long long time, and so to actually see him finally
gets a rewarded with the knot, Look, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
He fully deserves it, and he's just the absolute.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Example of hustle and if it and not just say
but obviously he's worked on his ball handling as well
as his actual carry game as well, which has been
really good to see, especially this season, which is of
what I think has led to the knot, because he's
always a defensive threat, but now he's actually with the
ball in hand, he's been making breaks, putting away little
link passes to put other guys into space. I think
(04:54):
that's the bit of his game that's really made a difference.
And I really hope that he comes off the bench early.
You know, if the if the starting guys can see
a good platform and really just get his first test
under his belt.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You've spent a lot of time at the back end
of your career playing in France, so presumably the competitiveness
of what was meant to be an under strength French
side last weekend didn't surprise you too much.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
No, it didn't really surprise me because I know how
how much respect that this team has for us, and
I think that's probably the bit that sort of set
us a little bit wrong, is that we probably disrespected
them a little bit as well, with the fact that
you know this thinking that this team they're just sending
an academy team over or whatever it is. But you
know they you know they look forward to any game
against the All Blacks, and you can see that with
the fear that they've got over there. You know, if
(05:38):
anyone goes over to France and you see how they
welcome us, it's it's crazy. You know, they really do
hold this game in high stock. And it's the same
for these young guys too, and they're out there to
make a name for themselves too. They very much know
that this is their chance to go against the world's
best with a world Cup in two years time.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
They're not taking this slightly.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
This is pretty much their chance to not only make
a name for themselves, but then also hopefully get a
few more tests in before Favan got here and makes
that team announcement in a couple of years time.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And just back to your time in the Black Jersey, Victor,
you know you mentioned Richie McCaw, Karen Reid, Jerome Kinder
there you played for the All Blacks in the time
of amazing loose forward depth with those guys Adam Thompson,
Sam Kaineley and Messi and others. What was it like
inside the All Blacks at that time with so much
competition for those loose forward spots.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I tell you what, it was obviously hard to get
a starting jersey, but to the same token, it was
probably if you're a loose forward anywhere in the world,
it was as especially as a young guy coming through,
there wasn't a better place to learn. You know, you
had three guys in Jerome that you know that you
mentioned in Jerome, Karin and Richie that were at absolute
(06:45):
top of their games, all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
And it's just been around that, especially.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
With even Liam who bought a lot of their physicality,
Sammy Kaine, tom O, you know, even with his lineout progress,
all these different guys that were literally at the top
of the you know, absolute top of their games. I
think I definitely took a lot of learnings, you know,
for Rito and the way he likes to read a
lineout and how he sees potential defensive openings for him
to run his lines. He always used to run great lines.
(07:10):
And then Richie the way he used to approach the breakdown,
and then obviously providers link play. And then there's Jerome
just the way he sort of just assessed something or
just would know when to read that. So they needed
to happen defensively to turn the tide. It was a
great place to be a loose forward and a great
place to learn. And I think there was something that
was really awesome and the fact that we could be
(07:31):
one hundred percent competitive, knowing that we all wanted that
starting Jersey, but in the end, knowing that we were
there to cooperate. And you know, so if I'm sitting
at the computers, they'll be care in there saying, oh,
look look at these linear this is how I look
at it. And then it'll be Richie doing the same,
Jerome doing the same. It's just everyone wanting to better
each other. I think that's that was a massive part
of our success and it wasn't just a loose towards.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Everyone was doing that. So great time to be a
part of Insied rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Indeed a golden period that you were part of. Vict
to really appreciate your time this afternoon, mate, thanks for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Cheers money, cheers mate, No thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Mate, That aspected Victor joining us on Weekend Sport.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk set B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from News Talks B Victor.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Victor played thirty three test matches for the All Blacks,
a double World Cup winner twenty eleven and twenty fifteen. Victor,
thanks for joining us on the show. You were one
of very few players who started for the All Blacks
in all three loose forward positions. So once you get
out there, how different are the three roles in the
heat of the battle?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
I think the similarities would be that at the end
of the day, you've got to bring the physical intensity,
whether that's with the ball in hand or obviously in
the defensive line, but the roles themselves. In my day anyway,
it was pretty was quite different.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Six.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
You are a lot more of the enforcer, the one
that was able to stem the flow of if the
opposition forward started getting a roll on all of a sudden,
you see that six fly out and level them and
basically put us on the front.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Foot again and just be their physical presence there.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
And then the several would be more of a fetchure
and a connector with interconnecting link play providing you know,
just all that kind of between the backs of the board,
and then the number eight would be a lot more
across the lineouts. I guess we had to agreed as
well as the fact that they're more responsible to fall
on hand and potentially.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Helping with backfield cover and launching counter attacks.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
So yeah, similar roles in terms of the physical presence
that they need to have on both sides of the board,
but quite different in terms of what they look to bring.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Did you have a preference, victor what was your absolute preference?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I think my absolute preference would have always been number eight.
I love playing eight with the Canes, but you know,
as a history would tell obviously, coming through with a
team like Richie, Kieran and Jerome on the flanks, it.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Just made me just slid on wherever I could.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So you look at the current squad then, and you
talked about, you know, the similarities and the differences. Does
it really matter which number Artie Savia wears. He's been
wearing eight, He's seven tonight and has been for more
one of PACIFICA. Does it really matter which number he
has on?
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I think with the way that they're playing the game now,
I don't think so, not as much. I think he's
going to be able to pretty much come under his
presence from wherever he is.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I mean, he's always going to be that seven might.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Give him a little bit more of a of an
owners to go in there over the ball and try
to steal everything, but like that's that's what he does anyway,
even when he's got the eight jersey so and the
ball in hand, being a big carrier for the team,
that doesn't change, you know, you know to ball, he's
obviously a good carrier as well, but you'll have a
few line our responsibilities, whereas Artie and Christian will probably
(02:35):
be taking more of the lion's shot of the carrying.
So it'll be just interesting to see.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
How how we help it pans out.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
But I'm pretty sure he can do whether it's seven
or eight. Artie will just keep leading from the front.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And did you mentioned too there? What do you make
of the I guess it's an experiment to play him
at six and see how he goes there.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, look at the end of the days, you know,
it's a freak.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So he's able to He's obviously giving us that aerial
advantage as well with the with the Lucy's but you
know he's he's shown, you know, he's scored some some
pretty good tries with an open spaces. It's just that
just out of the edge of the physicality too, because
he's got it in him, and it's just something that
that takes time. You know, when I thought to Jerome
as well, that it took him a bit of time
(03:16):
to find because footing with their physical presence, and even
myself was the exact same thing. So it's at some
stage you just got to give someone the time to
grow into that role. And because that's something that you know,
any all black team lose Ford Trio or even Ford
Peck will always needs as their physical dominance. And that's
definitely something that we're obviously just the working.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
How do you develop it? But how do you how
do you work on physicality.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Love?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Obviously it's just not so much time of the gym,
but just time on the track and just confidence with
the guys in and around you. It's a real understanding
of your role. It's it's a whole bunch of stuff,
but most of it is just maturity really. You know,
when you're in your twenties, you can you know, get
tough and then you come and come across come across
a farmer and you find out you're not so tough anymore,
(04:04):
you know. So it's just the maturity of being in
there long enough to be able to cut your teeth
and know where you can and where you should be.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Oh yes, at the right time.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
What have you made of duplass Kalifi's season, which has
led to his All Blacks call up.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Oh look, he's been knocking on the door for a
long long time, and so to actually see him finally
gets a rewarded with the knot, Look, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
He fully deserves it, and he's just the absolute.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Example of hustle and if it and not just say
but obviously he's worked on his ball handling as well
as his actual carry game as well, which has been
really good to see, especially this season, which is of
what I think has led to the knot, because he's
always a defensive threat, but now he's actually with the
ball in hand, he's been making breaks, putting away little
link passes to put other guys into space. I think
(04:54):
that's the bit of his game that's really made a difference.
And I really hope that he comes off the bench early.
You know, if the if the starting guys can see
a good platform and really just get his first test
under his belt.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You've spent a lot of time at the back end
of your career playing in France, so presumably the competitiveness
of what was meant to be an under strength French
side last weekend didn't surprise you too much.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
No, it didn't really surprise me because I know how
how much respect that this team has for us, and
I think that's probably the bit that sort of set
us a little bit wrong, is that we probably disrespected
them a little bit as well, with the fact that
you know this thinking that this team they're just sending
an academy team over or whatever it is. But you
know they you know they look forward to any game
against the All Blacks, and you can see that with
the fear that they've got over there. You know, if
(05:38):
anyone goes over to France and you see how they
welcome us, it's it's crazy. You know, they really do
hold this game in high stock. And it's the same
for these young guys too, and they're out there to
make a name for themselves too. They very much know
that this is their chance to go against the world's
best with a world Cup in two years time.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
They're not taking this slightly.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
This is pretty much their chance to not only make
a name for themselves, but then also hopefully get a
few more tests in before Favan got here and makes
that team announcement in a couple of years time.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And just back to your time in the Black Jersey, Victor,
you know you mentioned Richie McCaw, Karen Reid, Jerome Kinder
there you played for the All Blacks in the time
of amazing loose forward depth with those guys Adam Thompson,
Sam Kaineley and Messi and others. What was it like
inside the All Blacks at that time with so much
competition for those loose forward spots.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I tell you what, it was obviously hard to get
a starting jersey, but to the same token, it was
probably if you're a loose forward anywhere in the world,
it was as especially as a young guy coming through,
there wasn't a better place to learn. You know, you
had three guys in Jerome that you know that you
mentioned in Jerome, Karin and Richie that were at absolute
(06:45):
top of their games, all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
And it's just been around that, especially.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
With even Liam who bought a lot of their physicality,
Sammy Kaine, tom O, you know, even with his lineout progress,
all these different guys that were literally at the top
of the you know, absolute top of their games. I
think I definitely took a lot of learnings, you know,
for Rito and the way he likes to read a
lineout and how he sees potential defensive openings for him
to run his lines. He always used to run great lines.
(07:10):
And then Richie the way he used to approach the breakdown,
and then obviously providers link play. And then there's Jerome
just the way he sort of just assessed something or
just would know when to read that. So they needed
to happen defensively to turn the tide. It was a
great place to be a loose forward and a great
place to learn. And I think there was something that
was really awesome and the fact that we could be
(07:31):
one hundred percent competitive, knowing that we all wanted that
starting Jersey, but in the end, knowing that we were
there to cooperate. And you know, so if I'm sitting
at the computers, they'll be care in there saying, oh,
look look at these linear this is how I look
at it. And then it'll be Richie doing the same,
Jerome doing the same. It's just everyone wanting to better
each other. I think that's that was a massive part
of our success and it wasn't just a loose towards.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Everyone was doing that. So great time to be a
part of Insied rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Indeed a golden period that you were part of. Vict
to really appreciate your time this afternoon, mate, thanks for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Cheers money, cheers mate, No thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Mate, That aspected Victor joining us on Weekend Sport.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk set B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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