July 19, 2025 • 11 mins
The All Blacks have a laundry list of new injuries to worry about but it's an improving picture for some of their older ones ahead of the Rugby Championship.
The squad have dispersed from Hamilton after wrapping up a 3-nil series win over France.
Former All Black Steve Gordon joined Piney to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine
from News Talk Zed bing.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Up at twenty nine to nineteen winning Hamilton last night,
securing a three nil series sweep over France having trialed
nineteen seventeen at half time, Brady McAllister on Test debut
and Duplicy Codifi on the occasion, offers first test start,
scored crucial second half tries.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
For McKinsey, stabs in a little kick into the end
goal Puller bounds up for semi race, bounce a zach
for refe plays to the whistle. He's gotten it down
and Duplassy Canepy has a first Test try and the
All Blacks hit the lead for the first time tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Former All Blacks locke Steve Gordon provided our expert analysis
during our radio call last night. He join's just now, Steve,
great to work alongside you last night. What do you
think the overriding feeling will be today among the All
Blacks coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Well, though, we please have got it done.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It's always nice to whitewash a team and win a
series three nil, but I think they'd be a little
bit of a little bit of frustration. They it's the
coordination cohesion that perhaps I are looking for out of
the series. But they did expose a lot of players
to test.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Rugby in the international environment.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
But I think they will be quitely confident too that
they've unearthed a few new potential superstars in their squad
going forward.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, I want to talk about a couple of players
in a moment, But you talk about that cohesion when
that is not achieved. Is that down to you or
is it also down to the way the opposition approach
a game.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I think it's down the opposition. I thought the French
were pretty good.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
They were really really organized in defense, and you along
on the sideline pinting, you may comment a couple of
times about just how quick they were coming up and
how aggressive and physical they were at contact at Ruck
and Moll and just the ability to get an all
blacks face and shut them down. And he'd have been
guilty comment, you know, right at the beginning of the
(01:59):
tour about not letting all blacks be good at what
they do. And so they did that really, really effectively
in the first sixty minutes. They fell away towards the
end event, but I don't think they subs made as
much impact as ours did. But I think he'll be Yeah,
he'll be pleased what they achieved in the ability to
limit the All Blacks and how they approached the game.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So as the All Blacks now planning for the Rugby Championship,
they've got a couple of weeks off, well actually a
month until they play Argentina and then those two massive
tests at home against South Africa. What do you think
the one or two things that they'll be majorly focused
on will be ahead of the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
I think they've got to look at their kicking game.
I don't think they kicked particularly well. They didn't find
brass and the kick chases and needs a little bit
of a work on.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I think they will be unearthed.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
You know, a real potential damaging scrummager and fletching yaw.
He has been incredible over over the last two months
and his rugby and in particularly his scrummaging and probably
at the end of that obviously the talking port and
Favian Holland, how sensational He's been playing three full tests
(03:11):
as a twenty two year old, making his debut for
the All Blacks and debut season which is outstanding. But
I think they'll be concerned in a few areas that
they'll really want to go away.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
And work on.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
But any footy and anytime you know you've got new
players getting exposed to that environment and time in the
middle is just gold. And coming up a French team
in that third Test that was a how a lot
more organized and cohesive from the first two. I think
that they'll would have enjoyed seeing how his squad responded
(03:45):
to that pressure and what the French style brought and
how they responded to it, how they broke it down.
And we can go back to Artie's comments he made
after the game is that they just had to find
a way how to get it done and they did
that successfully.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Just on Fleacher newl he started the first two test matches,
came off the bench last night. What is his best
use is it to start? Is it to come on
and really apply pressure and sort of the back end
of matches.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I think they'll look at that and see who's he's
scrumming against and the opposition scrums and how they best
employ him. You know, if they think that they're coming
up against a scrum that he can really dominate you
from the start that startup, well, wouldn't you have the
game one by halftime?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
You know, and the.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Opposition that their forward pack, their mentality is shattered, you know,
because they can't compete at scrum time or you know,
as someone like the Bomb squad, the South Africans employee,
you may want to bring them on to show things
up when they change out their forward pack after fifty
five minutes. And the ideal to be able to introduce
(04:50):
someone like Fletcher who has got to put it on
people and he's showing it in the test in and
now that he can really upset and dominate at scrum time.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And Fabian Holand you've mentioned him, you mentioned him a
pre game when we spoke yesterday and alluded to him
earlier on in our chat today. One of very few
players to play every minute of the series. What's impressed
you most about his his you know, seemingly seamless introduction
into Test rugby, his.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Ability to complete. You know you made mentioned early on
about his tackle count. You thirty seven tackles in this
first two tests, none missed, no miss tackles. Everyone was
a completion. I think his accuracy and his attention to
detail for a young player introduced is quite astounding. I
think if he can he can build on that and
start introducing some more little subtleties as he gains confidence.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah, he's he's going to be world class.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
And the most impressive thing is that he just seems
to be enjoying every moment out there.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
You know, he's not overalled at all.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
He's just loving the environment and stepping up big time
to play for his adopted country.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
What did you make of Damien McKenzie's performance last night.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
I wasn't classic damer. I think the French had a
really good job of reading him. He watched a couple
of times particular, and they seem to like have a
dig on them. Some of that was just one of
the loosies and or inside backs in particular. We're just
tracking him. They know his ability to counterattack ball in
hand if there's a turnover ball or if a mismatch
(06:22):
in the defensive system. So they tracked him really well
and just made sure that they completed tackles on him,
because you've seen it so many times in both the
Super Rubi and International his ability to skip through a
gap that shouldn't really be there, or just bamboozle a
defensive structure and get someone to go the wrong way
and he can go through the gap. I think that
(06:44):
was a ploy from the French to contain him, and
they did a really good job on that. Some of
his kicks, you know, you can improve on. I don't
think it was a bad performance from and any means,
but it was just a quiet performance by his own standards.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
You mentioned the number of players who have been exposed
to test rugby. I think six new debutantes thirty three
players used across the three games. Steve, is there a
concern about the drop off I guess between the top
guy and the rest In a couple of key positions.
I'm talking hooker with Cody Taylor and half back with
Cam Royguard. There just seems to be a big gap
(07:18):
back to the others.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
That says a lot about Cody Taylor and Cam Rouyguard.
You know, they are through truly world class players. But
I think Raises trying hard to introduce players and get
them up to speed, you know, and the only way
to do that is you've got to test and give
them opportunities and time in the middle as just goal
for any player, and we've seen all sorts of different
(07:42):
players how they develop over their careers. You know, sometimes
they have a rough start and turn out to be
a mainstay in the team that they need time to
do so, and if there is a drop off and
performance in how the team's run on the field, and
I think Raising and his crew will be investing a
lot of time in the next tier down trying to
(08:02):
get them up, you know.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
And what a wonderful opportunity for all.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Blacks to have have the likes of a Cody Taylor
came roygad for those guys to aspire to. They can
see the level every day in training where they need
to be. So yeah, yeah, I don't think we'd be
too concerned at this stage in the you know, the
four year cycle, but yeah, they would be looking for
those players to come up to that level.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think we all expected the French to be not
at their best, a supposed second string side coming over here, Steve,
were you surprised at the at the strength of the
of the French team.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
I'm not at all point, you know, come out of
one of the best competition in the world and the
top car tours, and look, I was really disappointed in
some of the commentary early on before that even played
a game about you know, the caliber of the team
that was coming out, and it was an insult and
disrespectful and a whole of other.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Nonsense that was being created around.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
I think we got showed last night that France is
one of the premiere competitions in the world and world
rugby at the moment, and those players coming out of
it are world class. You know, they are his breath
away from from tipping us up last.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I just think that has shown how much depth the
French do carry in their playing court at the moment.
You know, they've got world class players, not just from
one to sixteen seventeen as I had in the past
and that there wasn't a lot of depth. They've got
depth from numbers you know, one right through to sixty
sixty five that are capable.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Of playing international football.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
So I think we've got a little bit of a
reality check and a jolt in our psyche just how
good the French competition is and perhaps we aren't as
far ahead as we thought we were.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And Tez Rugby and Hamilton for the first time in
three years, that's an awfully long time hope it's not
three more years because I think that stadium's terrific, rectangular,
The crowd are right there at great atmosphere last night.
What's the feeling around around the White Cut the region
about the likelihood of more regular test matches here?
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Oh, we love it. You know.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
They're just a passionate crowd in the way the surrounding areas.
A lot of people come up from the country, across
from the Bay, a lot dropped down from from South Auckland,
you know. So it's got it's got a massive feeder
group of people that can easily get to the stadium
and it's a wonderful occasion. They know it has limitations
on capacity and revenue is a big driver, so it's
(10:22):
hard to get those sort of a level test matches
against you know, the top tier nations, the top eight
they come here. But yeah, we had one last night
and just been down the street today to grab a
coffee and everyone talking about it. There's still ends of
our staff and supporters, you know, close supporters of both
teams around in the Health and East Village and so
(10:45):
it's just it's just great for the region and I
really hope that they do try and shear them around
and not just why can you know some of the
other provinces too, and if they can get tests out
to the province, it just is such a boost to
those areas for for rugby and it's great for those
regions to enjoy the celebrations and all the peripheral act
(11:06):
that goes on around a test match and just then
interaction between people and bringing people together around our great
game rugby.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
YEH could not agree more. Loved working alongside you last night, Steve.
Thanks so much for your time today.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Cheers Piney, have a good one. Go well.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You go well too, Steve. Thanks indeed, Steve Gordon, former
All Blacks Locke and expert analyst on our radio calls
not only for the All Blacks here in Hamilton, but
chiefs and WAKUFT or MPC as well, alongside our great
mate Graham Minty Mead.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, Listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine
from News Talk Zed bing.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Up at twenty nine to nineteen winning Hamilton last night,
securing a three nil series sweep over France having trialed
nineteen seventeen at half time, Brady McAllister on Test debut
and Duplicy Codifi on the occasion, offers first test start,
scored crucial second half tries.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
For McKinsey, stabs in a little kick into the end
goal Puller bounds up for semi race, bounce a zach
for refe plays to the whistle. He's gotten it down
and Duplassy Canepy has a first Test try and the
All Blacks hit the lead for the first time tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Former All Blacks locke Steve Gordon provided our expert analysis
during our radio call last night. He join's just now, Steve,
great to work alongside you last night. What do you
think the overriding feeling will be today among the All
Blacks coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Well, though, we please have got it done.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It's always nice to whitewash a team and win a
series three nil, but I think they'd be a little
bit of a little bit of frustration. They it's the
coordination cohesion that perhaps I are looking for out of
the series. But they did expose a lot of players
to test.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Rugby in the international environment.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
But I think they will be quitely confident too that
they've unearthed a few new potential superstars in their squad
going forward.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, I want to talk about a couple of players
in a moment, But you talk about that cohesion when
that is not achieved. Is that down to you or
is it also down to the way the opposition approach
a game.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I think it's down the opposition. I thought the French
were pretty good.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
They were really really organized in defense, and you along
on the sideline pinting, you may comment a couple of
times about just how quick they were coming up and
how aggressive and physical they were at contact at Ruck
and Moll and just the ability to get an all
blacks face and shut them down. And he'd have been
guilty comment, you know, right at the beginning of the
(01:59):
tour about not letting all blacks be good at what
they do. And so they did that really, really effectively
in the first sixty minutes. They fell away towards the
end event, but I don't think they subs made as
much impact as ours did. But I think he'll be Yeah,
he'll be pleased what they achieved in the ability to
limit the All Blacks and how they approached the game.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So as the All Blacks now planning for the Rugby Championship,
they've got a couple of weeks off, well actually a
month until they play Argentina and then those two massive
tests at home against South Africa. What do you think
the one or two things that they'll be majorly focused
on will be ahead of the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
I think they've got to look at their kicking game.
I don't think they kicked particularly well. They didn't find
brass and the kick chases and needs a little bit
of a work on.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I think they will be unearthed.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
You know, a real potential damaging scrummager and fletching yaw.
He has been incredible over over the last two months
and his rugby and in particularly his scrummaging and probably
at the end of that obviously the talking port and
Favian Holland, how sensational He's been playing three full tests
(03:11):
as a twenty two year old, making his debut for
the All Blacks and debut season which is outstanding. But
I think they'll be concerned in a few areas that
they'll really want to go away.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
And work on.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
But any footy and anytime you know you've got new
players getting exposed to that environment and time in the
middle is just gold. And coming up a French team
in that third Test that was a how a lot
more organized and cohesive from the first two. I think
that they'll would have enjoyed seeing how his squad responded
(03:45):
to that pressure and what the French style brought and
how they responded to it, how they broke it down.
And we can go back to Artie's comments he made
after the game is that they just had to find
a way how to get it done and they did
that successfully.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Just on Fleacher newl he started the first two test matches,
came off the bench last night. What is his best
use is it to start? Is it to come on
and really apply pressure and sort of the back end
of matches.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I think they'll look at that and see who's he's
scrumming against and the opposition scrums and how they best
employ him. You know, if they think that they're coming
up against a scrum that he can really dominate you
from the start that startup, well, wouldn't you have the
game one by halftime?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
You know, and the.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Opposition that their forward pack, their mentality is shattered, you know,
because they can't compete at scrum time or you know,
as someone like the Bomb squad, the South Africans employee,
you may want to bring them on to show things
up when they change out their forward pack after fifty
five minutes. And the ideal to be able to introduce
(04:50):
someone like Fletcher who has got to put it on
people and he's showing it in the test in and
now that he can really upset and dominate at scrum time.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And Fabian Holand you've mentioned him, you mentioned him a
pre game when we spoke yesterday and alluded to him
earlier on in our chat today. One of very few
players to play every minute of the series. What's impressed
you most about his his you know, seemingly seamless introduction
into Test rugby, his.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Ability to complete. You know you made mentioned early on
about his tackle count. You thirty seven tackles in this
first two tests, none missed, no miss tackles. Everyone was
a completion. I think his accuracy and his attention to
detail for a young player introduced is quite astounding. I
think if he can he can build on that and
start introducing some more little subtleties as he gains confidence.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah, he's he's going to be world class.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
And the most impressive thing is that he just seems
to be enjoying every moment out there.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
You know, he's not overalled at all.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
He's just loving the environment and stepping up big time
to play for his adopted country.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
What did you make of Damien McKenzie's performance last night.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
I wasn't classic damer. I think the French had a
really good job of reading him. He watched a couple
of times particular, and they seem to like have a
dig on them. Some of that was just one of
the loosies and or inside backs in particular. We're just
tracking him. They know his ability to counterattack ball in
hand if there's a turnover ball or if a mismatch
(06:22):
in the defensive system. So they tracked him really well
and just made sure that they completed tackles on him,
because you've seen it so many times in both the
Super Rubi and International his ability to skip through a
gap that shouldn't really be there, or just bamboozle a
defensive structure and get someone to go the wrong way
and he can go through the gap. I think that
(06:44):
was a ploy from the French to contain him, and
they did a really good job on that. Some of
his kicks, you know, you can improve on. I don't
think it was a bad performance from and any means,
but it was just a quiet performance by his own standards.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
You mentioned the number of players who have been exposed
to test rugby. I think six new debutantes thirty three
players used across the three games. Steve, is there a
concern about the drop off I guess between the top
guy and the rest In a couple of key positions.
I'm talking hooker with Cody Taylor and half back with
Cam Royguard. There just seems to be a big gap
(07:18):
back to the others.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
That says a lot about Cody Taylor and Cam Rouyguard.
You know, they are through truly world class players. But
I think Raises trying hard to introduce players and get
them up to speed, you know, and the only way
to do that is you've got to test and give
them opportunities and time in the middle as just goal
for any player, and we've seen all sorts of different
(07:42):
players how they develop over their careers. You know, sometimes
they have a rough start and turn out to be
a mainstay in the team that they need time to
do so, and if there is a drop off and
performance in how the team's run on the field, and
I think Raising and his crew will be investing a
lot of time in the next tier down trying to
(08:02):
get them up, you know.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
And what a wonderful opportunity for all.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
Blacks to have have the likes of a Cody Taylor
came roygad for those guys to aspire to. They can
see the level every day in training where they need
to be. So yeah, yeah, I don't think we'd be
too concerned at this stage in the you know, the
four year cycle, but yeah, they would be looking for
those players to come up to that level.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think we all expected the French to be not
at their best, a supposed second string side coming over here, Steve,
were you surprised at the at the strength of the
of the French team.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
I'm not at all point, you know, come out of
one of the best competition in the world and the
top car tours, and look, I was really disappointed in
some of the commentary early on before that even played
a game about you know, the caliber of the team
that was coming out, and it was an insult and
disrespectful and a whole of other.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Nonsense that was being created around.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
I think we got showed last night that France is
one of the premiere competitions in the world and world
rugby at the moment, and those players coming out of
it are world class. You know, they are his breath
away from from tipping us up last.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I just think that has shown how much depth the
French do carry in their playing court at the moment.
You know, they've got world class players, not just from
one to sixteen seventeen as I had in the past
and that there wasn't a lot of depth. They've got
depth from numbers you know, one right through to sixty
sixty five that are capable.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Of playing international football.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
So I think we've got a little bit of a
reality check and a jolt in our psyche just how
good the French competition is and perhaps we aren't as
far ahead as we thought we were.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And Tez Rugby and Hamilton for the first time in
three years, that's an awfully long time hope it's not
three more years because I think that stadium's terrific, rectangular,
The crowd are right there at great atmosphere last night.
What's the feeling around around the White Cut the region
about the likelihood of more regular test matches here?
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Oh, we love it. You know.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
They're just a passionate crowd in the way the surrounding areas.
A lot of people come up from the country, across
from the Bay, a lot dropped down from from South Auckland,
you know. So it's got it's got a massive feeder
group of people that can easily get to the stadium
and it's a wonderful occasion. They know it has limitations
on capacity and revenue is a big driver, so it's
(10:22):
hard to get those sort of a level test matches
against you know, the top tier nations, the top eight
they come here. But yeah, we had one last night
and just been down the street today to grab a
coffee and everyone talking about it. There's still ends of
our staff and supporters, you know, close supporters of both
teams around in the Health and East Village and so
(10:45):
it's just it's just great for the region and I
really hope that they do try and shear them around
and not just why can you know some of the
other provinces too, and if they can get tests out
to the province, it just is such a boost to
those areas for for rugby and it's great for those
regions to enjoy the celebrations and all the peripheral act
(11:06):
that goes on around a test match and just then
interaction between people and bringing people together around our great
game rugby.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
YEH could not agree more. Loved working alongside you last night, Steve.
Thanks so much for your time today.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Cheers Piney, have a good one. Go well.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You go well too, Steve. Thanks indeed, Steve Gordon, former
All Blacks Locke and expert analyst on our radio calls
not only for the All Blacks here in Hamilton, but
chiefs and WAKUFT or MPC as well, alongside our great
mate Graham Minty Mead.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, Listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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