Netball is navigating choppy waters as participation declines and viewership remains low.
The future of the New Zealand game’s highest level competition is still uncertain, as a broadcasting deal for the ANZ Premiership is still up in the air.
Justin Nelson was the driving force behind the revival of NZNBL, and joined Piney to discuss the problems with netball in New Zealand, and how it can be brought back to it’s glory days.
“When you’re at the crossroads you need to think differently, you need to act differently, you need to embrace change and innovation, and most importantly, you need to be bold and courageous.”
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Netball is navigating choppy waters right now. The future of
the A and Z Premiership is uncertain. Netball New Zealand
have said they'll run the competition next year a sixteen
format identical to this year, but there's no broadcast deal
in place yet and when that does come, it will
reportedly be at a vastly reduced level, meaning player payments
(00:35):
are very much in doubt. So what is the way
forward for netball at the elite level? Justin Nelson is
hugely respected and highly regarded for the way he firstly
guided our National Basketball League through Covid as its general
manager and then in his role as head of fan
Engagement at Sky, supercharged the competition with innovations like the
(00:58):
hugely successful Rapid League. He's not working in a new
job for the Australian National Basketball League, but he joins
us to add some ins. Justin, thanks for your time
this afternoon on Weekend Sport. What is your general view
on the challenging situation that nitball finds itself in New
Zealand right now?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hey, thanks for having me. Nice to still be remembered.
Thank you. It was a great introduction. I think it's
the same as any sport. I mean, Nepple's no different
to the challenges that lots of sports are facing around
the world, and that is, you know, change in innovation
and what the new and emerging fan is looking for
in sport, and they are looking for different They are
(01:39):
looking you know, you use the word supercharge. They're looking
for supercharged entertainment where they can socialize, have a great time,
enjoy the spectacle, but importantly an opportunity to connect with
the game. And that's what all sports are chasing.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Has nepball been slow to do that?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, look, I can only go by the time that
I spent in New Zealand, you know, six and a
half years. You would have to say yes. But it's
no different to a few other sports. But netball is
certainly one of those sports.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, So if you're in charge of netball New Zealand,
what steps would you be taken right now?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Well, I think it starts in the boardroom and people
might find that strange, but it starts with the mentality
around the table. You need to be able to walk
into a situation where change in innovation is embraced. And
if you have people at the table, and I have
gone through this with different sports over the years, if
(02:43):
you have people at the table that want to continue
to do things the way they've always been done, chances
are it's not going to be a productive meeting. So
you need to be able to enter a room where
change and innovation is embraced, and anybody who doesn't want that,
they need to stand up and respectfully leave the room.
(03:04):
For me and my experience for it stuffs.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So when you were in your previous role justin with Sky,
did you go to netball New Zealand with some suggestions
for their competition?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah? Look, I mean they were one of many sports
that I had suggestions for. Yep. So the answer is yes.
And you know, conversations with sports were always good, always productive.
Netball was one, always engaging. But then the next step
is what do you do with it?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So why didn't they do anything with the suggestions that
undoubtedly you gave them. I want to get to them
in a moment, but why do you think the boardroom
at Nepball New Zealand was one that was resistant to
innovation and change?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah? Look, it's a hard one to answer, because you
don't always know the depth of the situation that a
sport is going through, calendars, agreements with player associations, where
they are in the landscape, financially, what is possible, what's
not possible, So you don't always know the depth of
what's going on behind the scenes. You can sit there
(04:09):
and you can talk about ideation and innovation all day long,
but there are other leavers and other mechanics that play
into that. But again, find a way. I'm a big
believer in finding a way, But that is one hurdle
that you don't always know when you're sitting there discussing
(04:29):
these things.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What changes and innovations would benefit NIPPLE in your view.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
It's a great question, and it's only a personal opinion.
And you know, sometimes the boldness and courageousness of decisions
can be confronting, so it's probably a good way to
preface it. Some things will sit people down and surprise them.
But look when I look at netball and dearly love
(05:01):
my grandmother who passed away early this year, she spent
sixty years in that ball in Australia, very high level
and life membership, and so I have been attached to
the game in the past, and as a youngster, spent
many times on the sidelines watching my manner and games
of netball, so I've seen a bit of it. And
the one thing that's always struck me about the game
(05:22):
is if I bring it right back to grassroots, right
back to the beginning. When a child first connects with
the game, the one thing they want to do is
they want to shoot the ball. They want to score goals,
and then as you go through the game, there's only
a couple of players that can do that and it's
taken away. So you know, one of my thoughts around
(05:43):
the game is how do you evolve it into still
only having two players permitted inside the shooting circle at
any time, but it can be any two players. So
you've got seven players on the court strategically changing, innovating,
and you have any player step into that position and
shoot the ball. That's just one again, very very much
(06:07):
outside the square. But that is the sort of thing
that you need to start looking at if you truly
want to change and innovate, connect do something different, make
it more exciting, and you know, embrace something that maybe
is a way of connecting with a greater part of
your participation base.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
To be fair to nip On New Zealand down the
a Z Premiership, they've dipped their toe in the water
with the two point shot. Is that a valuable innovation,
a valuable addition to the game in your view?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, I think you summed it up well, you know
Piney by saying they dip their toe in the water.
Analysis you need to go through how if speak to
the fans, what do they think? You know, I think
it is dipping the toe in the water. It's a
really good point. Sometimes when you innovate, it's not so
(07:01):
much about the innovation you put down, it's the way
people pick it up, accept it and run with it.
I mean, you talked about rapid League and the intro,
and you know, rapid League is an innovations suggestion, It's
an idea. It's very very different to what the game
has been used to anywhere in the world at any stage.
So you need people to think differently. No matter what
(07:24):
that innovation is, it's about how the people pick it up.
It's about how the people use it and how the
people experience it and enjoy it. And if more people
do that than those that don't, that innovation becomes successful,
and that's a good example of what has become successful.
But it's also the things you put around the sport,
the timing of the season, the ability for players to
(07:46):
play globally and go on and earn money in other competitions.
You know, I have been a person that's spoken in
the past about the competition in New Zealand for netball
clashing with the competition in Australia. I don't think that's
a good thing for the players and their ability to
(08:07):
earn a living.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I could not agree more.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And May June and July as busy anyway, but the
fact that it also clashes with the other professional netball
competition in this part of the world just seems, you know,
not ideal. So should neple new zeand just move the
competition window, give themselves clear air play it, I don't know, August, September,
October instead.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Well, for me, that's the first thing, that's the first
step to change. Do it in a way where the
players who are the stars of the show, they've got
the ability to apply their craft, play money, become global talents.
And that's something that if I'm in a sport like netball,
(08:51):
how do we become more global? How do our players
become more global? Our people go out there and perform
and be paid on a global stage. We see in football,
for instance, very very prevalent basketballs and other one global sport.
How do we allow our players to grow? So, for me, yeah,
that's one that should definitely happen. It's almost box number
(09:14):
one that you'd want to tick. Just getting back to
the innovation. One other thing that I've always found interesting,
that's probably a good word for it, is the center
pass after a goal in netball and the fact that
changes from one team to the other. There's not too
many sports where you can score and get the ball back.
(09:38):
For me, I've just been around sports where if you score,
the opposition gets the ball all the time. So again,
little things like that, What can you learn from other sports?
What can you see that other sports do that may
help you tweak and change a few things to take
your sport forward in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Fans do seem to be turning up in pretty good numbers,
and the game day experience looks pretty good. I haven't
admittedly been to many games, but on TV, plenty of color,
lots of kids, that sort of thing. Do you think
nim All has done a pretty good job of engaging
its fans at venue?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah? I do. I ventured to some Pulse games when
I was in Wellington and thoroughly enjoyed them. Really strong
connection with ensuring that those people go along and enjoy
the game. So yet, big big tip, no doubt about it.
But it goes beyond that. You're only as strong as
(10:36):
your weakest link. Is it happening in every stadium? Is
it consistent? Is the offering consistent? Can fans go along
and experience good, solid social outcomes? What's the demographic of
the audience? Is it too skewed one way? Whether that's
male female, where you know, whether it's gender based, whether
it's age based. Is it too skewed one way? So
(10:58):
all of those things you need to constantly It's almost
like on a weekly basis, you need to constantly be
digging really deep into the day. Are they collecting data?
You know, is a sport doing the right thing to
keep up with the pace, to keep up with the
emerging fan market by really trawling through the data. And
(11:20):
you can only trawl through the data if you've got it.
So all of these things, all of these little leavers
that sit around game day are absolutely vital to the health,
sustainability and growth of a business in sport. Any sport.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Will elite knitball survive in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I hope so, yeah, I hope. So I want all
sports to survive on You know, you've known me well
enough now that all sports have a place. When people
speak to me about, you know, what sport do I
think their young child should play, I say all of them.
Experience as many as you possibly can, because that's the
(12:00):
enjoyment of getting active and getting into a sport, and
you'll find one that sticks, and then you have that
connection and that deep connection and aspiration through to the
elite level. And you need to see the elite level.
You need to be able to go to the elite level.
You know, if it's switch the TV on, you need
to see it to be it. So yeah, one hundred percent,
(12:21):
it should be there. But from what I'm seeing and hearing,
and obviously you've got me on today, so people are
talking about it. It's at the crossroads. And when you're
at the crossroads, you need to think differently, you need
to act differently. You need to embrace change and innovation.
And most importantly, you need to be bold and courageous.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Very interesting, thought provoking stuff as always from you, Justin.
Thanks so much for taking the time for a chat
this afternoon. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Hey, thanks for remembering who I am.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No danger off forgetting you Justin. Thanks mate, Justin Nilson.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Netball is navigating choppy waters right now. The future of
the A and Z Premiership is uncertain. Netball New Zealand
have said they'll run the competition next year a sixteen
format identical to this year, but there's no broadcast deal
in place yet and when that does come, it will
reportedly be at a vastly reduced level, meaning player payments
(00:35):
are very much in doubt. So what is the way
forward for netball at the elite level? Justin Nelson is
hugely respected and highly regarded for the way he firstly
guided our National Basketball League through Covid as its general
manager and then in his role as head of fan
Engagement at Sky, supercharged the competition with innovations like the
(00:58):
hugely successful Rapid League. He's not working in a new
job for the Australian National Basketball League, but he joins
us to add some ins. Justin, thanks for your time
this afternoon on Weekend Sport. What is your general view
on the challenging situation that nitball finds itself in New
Zealand right now?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Hey, thanks for having me. Nice to still be remembered.
Thank you. It was a great introduction. I think it's
the same as any sport. I mean, Nepple's no different
to the challenges that lots of sports are facing around
the world, and that is, you know, change in innovation
and what the new and emerging fan is looking for
in sport, and they are looking for different They are
(01:39):
looking you know, you use the word supercharge. They're looking
for supercharged entertainment where they can socialize, have a great time,
enjoy the spectacle, but importantly an opportunity to connect with
the game. And that's what all sports are chasing.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Has nepball been slow to do that?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, look, I can only go by the time that
I spent in New Zealand, you know, six and a
half years. You would have to say yes. But it's
no different to a few other sports. But netball is
certainly one of those sports.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, So if you're in charge of netball New Zealand,
what steps would you be taken right now?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Well, I think it starts in the boardroom and people
might find that strange, but it starts with the mentality
around the table. You need to be able to walk
into a situation where change in innovation is embraced. And
if you have people at the table, and I have
gone through this with different sports over the years, if
(02:43):
you have people at the table that want to continue
to do things the way they've always been done, chances
are it's not going to be a productive meeting. So
you need to be able to enter a room where
change and innovation is embraced, and anybody who doesn't want that,
they need to stand up and respectfully leave the room.
(03:04):
For me and my experience for it stuffs.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So when you were in your previous role justin with Sky,
did you go to netball New Zealand with some suggestions
for their competition?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah? Look, I mean they were one of many sports
that I had suggestions for. Yep. So the answer is yes.
And you know, conversations with sports were always good, always productive.
Netball was one, always engaging. But then the next step
is what do you do with it?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So why didn't they do anything with the suggestions that
undoubtedly you gave them. I want to get to them
in a moment, but why do you think the boardroom
at Nepball New Zealand was one that was resistant to
innovation and change?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah? Look, it's a hard one to answer, because you
don't always know the depth of the situation that a
sport is going through, calendars, agreements with player associations, where
they are in the landscape, financially, what is possible, what's
not possible, So you don't always know the depth of
what's going on behind the scenes. You can sit there
(04:09):
and you can talk about ideation and innovation all day long,
but there are other leavers and other mechanics that play
into that. But again, find a way. I'm a big
believer in finding a way, But that is one hurdle
that you don't always know when you're sitting there discussing
(04:29):
these things.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What changes and innovations would benefit NIPPLE in your view.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
It's a great question, and it's only a personal opinion.
And you know, sometimes the boldness and courageousness of decisions
can be confronting, so it's probably a good way to
preface it. Some things will sit people down and surprise them.
But look when I look at netball and dearly love
(05:01):
my grandmother who passed away early this year, she spent
sixty years in that ball in Australia, very high level
and life membership, and so I have been attached to
the game in the past, and as a youngster, spent
many times on the sidelines watching my manner and games
of netball, so I've seen a bit of it. And
the one thing that's always struck me about the game
(05:22):
is if I bring it right back to grassroots, right
back to the beginning. When a child first connects with
the game, the one thing they want to do is
they want to shoot the ball. They want to score goals,
and then as you go through the game, there's only
a couple of players that can do that and it's
taken away. So you know, one of my thoughts around
(05:43):
the game is how do you evolve it into still
only having two players permitted inside the shooting circle at
any time, but it can be any two players. So
you've got seven players on the court strategically changing, innovating,
and you have any player step into that position and
shoot the ball. That's just one again, very very much
(06:07):
outside the square. But that is the sort of thing
that you need to start looking at if you truly
want to change and innovate, connect do something different, make
it more exciting, and you know, embrace something that maybe
is a way of connecting with a greater part of
your participation base.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
To be fair to nip On New Zealand down the
a Z Premiership, they've dipped their toe in the water
with the two point shot. Is that a valuable innovation,
a valuable addition to the game in your view?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, I think you summed it up well, you know
Piney by saying they dip their toe in the water.
Analysis you need to go through how if speak to
the fans, what do they think? You know, I think
it is dipping the toe in the water. It's a
really good point. Sometimes when you innovate, it's not so
(07:01):
much about the innovation you put down, it's the way
people pick it up, accept it and run with it.
I mean, you talked about rapid League and the intro,
and you know, rapid League is an innovations suggestion, It's
an idea. It's very very different to what the game
has been used to anywhere in the world at any stage.
So you need people to think differently. No matter what
(07:24):
that innovation is, it's about how the people pick it up.
It's about how the people use it and how the
people experience it and enjoy it. And if more people
do that than those that don't, that innovation becomes successful,
and that's a good example of what has become successful.
But it's also the things you put around the sport,
the timing of the season, the ability for players to
(07:46):
play globally and go on and earn money in other competitions.
You know, I have been a person that's spoken in
the past about the competition in New Zealand for netball
clashing with the competition in Australia. I don't think that's
a good thing for the players and their ability to
(08:07):
earn a living.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I could not agree more.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And May June and July as busy anyway, but the
fact that it also clashes with the other professional netball
competition in this part of the world just seems, you know,
not ideal. So should neple new zeand just move the
competition window, give themselves clear air play it, I don't know, August, September,
October instead.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Well, for me, that's the first thing, that's the first
step to change. Do it in a way where the
players who are the stars of the show, they've got
the ability to apply their craft, play money, become global talents.
And that's something that if I'm in a sport like netball,
(08:51):
how do we become more global? How do our players
become more global? Our people go out there and perform
and be paid on a global stage. We see in football,
for instance, very very prevalent basketballs and other one global sport.
How do we allow our players to grow? So, for me, yeah,
that's one that should definitely happen. It's almost box number
(09:14):
one that you'd want to tick. Just getting back to
the innovation. One other thing that I've always found interesting,
that's probably a good word for it, is the center
pass after a goal in netball and the fact that
changes from one team to the other. There's not too
many sports where you can score and get the ball back.
(09:38):
For me, I've just been around sports where if you score,
the opposition gets the ball all the time. So again,
little things like that, What can you learn from other sports?
What can you see that other sports do that may
help you tweak and change a few things to take
your sport forward in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Fans do seem to be turning up in pretty good numbers,
and the game day experience looks pretty good. I haven't
admittedly been to many games, but on TV, plenty of color,
lots of kids, that sort of thing. Do you think
nim All has done a pretty good job of engaging
its fans at venue?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah? I do. I ventured to some Pulse games when
I was in Wellington and thoroughly enjoyed them. Really strong
connection with ensuring that those people go along and enjoy
the game. So yet, big big tip, no doubt about it.
But it goes beyond that. You're only as strong as
(10:36):
your weakest link. Is it happening in every stadium? Is
it consistent? Is the offering consistent? Can fans go along
and experience good, solid social outcomes? What's the demographic of
the audience? Is it too skewed one way? Whether that's
male female, where you know, whether it's gender based, whether
it's age based. Is it too skewed one way? So
(10:58):
all of those things you need to constantly It's almost
like on a weekly basis, you need to constantly be
digging really deep into the day. Are they collecting data?
You know, is a sport doing the right thing to
keep up with the pace, to keep up with the
emerging fan market by really trawling through the data. And
(11:20):
you can only trawl through the data if you've got it.
So all of these things, all of these little leavers
that sit around game day are absolutely vital to the health,
sustainability and growth of a business in sport. Any sport.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Will elite knitball survive in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I hope so, yeah, I hope. So I want all
sports to survive on You know, you've known me well
enough now that all sports have a place. When people
speak to me about, you know, what sport do I
think their young child should play, I say all of them.
Experience as many as you possibly can, because that's the
(12:00):
enjoyment of getting active and getting into a sport, and
you'll find one that sticks, and then you have that
connection and that deep connection and aspiration through to the
elite level. And you need to see the elite level.
You need to be able to go to the elite level.
You know, if it's switch the TV on, you need
to see it to be it. So yeah, one hundred percent,
(12:21):
it should be there. But from what I'm seeing and hearing,
and obviously you've got me on today, so people are
talking about it. It's at the crossroads. And when you're
at the crossroads, you need to think differently, you need
to act differently. You need to embrace change and innovation.
And most importantly, you need to be bold and courageous.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Very interesting, thought provoking stuff as always from you, Justin.
Thanks so much for taking the time for a chat
this afternoon. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Hey, thanks for remembering who I am.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No danger off forgetting you Justin. Thanks mate, Justin Nilson.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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