September 9, 2025 • 34 mins
Ivan, a Malaysian-born New Zealander, shared his story on his tumultuous upbringing, his journey to New Zealand, and his work in mental health advocacy. Born in Singapore and raised in Malaysia, Ivan grew up in a household marked by instability due to his father’s gambling addiction and involvement in organised crime. Constantly moving to evade threats, Ivan’s childhood was far from ordinary, leaving him with deep-seated anxiety, depression, and insecurity.
At 28, Ivan made the life-changing decision to move to New Zealand as an international student. Struggling with his identity as a gay man in Malaysia, where homosexuality remains illegal, Ivan sought freedom and acceptance in New Zealand. Despite initial challenges, including adapting to a new culture and diet, Ivan found solace in the country’s more inclusive environment. However, he noted that even in New Zealand, coming out as gay can still lead to awkward moments, highlighting the ongoing need for societal progress.
Ivan’s personal struggles inspired him to pursue a career in mental health. After completing a social science degree, he joined a pioneering peer support program funded by Auckland Health New Zealand. Drawing from his own experiences with mental distress, Ivan now helps others navigate their mental health challenges, particularly within New Zealand’s Asian communities. He emphasised the importance of culturally sensitive approaches, noting that Western biomedical models often fail to resonate with Asian perspectives, which tend to view mental health through a holistic lens.
Ivan also advocates on the impact of gambling addiction, a problem he witnessed firsthand through his father’s struggles. Gambling addiction, often referred to as the "secret addiction," has profound effects on families, leading to financial instability, emotional distress, and strained relationships. In New Zealand, the scale of the issue is staggering, with over $1 billion lost on pokie machines alone in 2022. Ivan highlighted the hidden costs of gambling, including lost productivity and time that could be spent with loved ones.
Ivan’s story is a testament to resilience and the power of community. From a chaotic childhood to becoming a mental health advocate, he continues to inspire others by turning his pain into purpose, helping those in need and raising awareness about mental health and gambling addiction.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome. I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to
the podcast version of The Nutters Club, a radio show
broadcast on News Talk seed B that talks about mental
health and shares helpful tips about how to live with
your own. The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights
on News Talk seid B right across New Zealand and
around the world since two thousand and nine, Real people
(00:44):
sharing their stories in their words to help others. This week,
I was joined by addictions specialist Susie Morrison as well
as our guest Ivan Yoe, a long time mental health advocate.
Ivan's story taught me a few things related to the
experience of resilience through personal change and transformation, as well
(01:06):
as the need for cultural consideration and sensitivity and mental
health and most prominently the ripple effects of gambling addiction.
Let us know what you learned from the chat with
Ivan on any of our social media platforms. Just search
for the Nutters Club Z. Tell us a little bit
about yourself. You know the accent, Where does that come from.
(01:29):
Where are you born? Where did you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
This jump right T and I thought I at least
have a time to breath a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Of that, So no, we're going straight for it. On.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So I was born in Singapore and raised from Malaysia
and came to New Zealand in two thousand and one.
Usually I tell people I was meeting Singapore process from
Malaysia and export it to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So where did you grow up then? Where was your
sort of you know, your early years of schooling and education.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Malaysia beg part of it until I was twenty eight
and then I came to New Zealand as an internet
and a student.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, tell us a little bit about growing up in Malaysia.
You know, it's very very different to you know, what
New Zealanders would would experience, I suppose. So what are
some of those differences now that you think back to
them in terms of what your life was like?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Actually that is the funny things because when first time
I was on the bus in New Zealand and in
Malaysia where you have Malay, Chinese and also Indian, and
I was sitting in the bus, It's like, oh wow,
this is just like Malaysia because it's not a monoculture.
You get to see a lot of people, and so
(02:43):
that was quite easy. I think the differences truly is
by a way, Malaysia also was colonized by British, so
you can imagine, you know that a lot of system
not that pretty much the same, including driving on the
what the right hand side? Is that correct? Right hand side?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Left? Yeah, there we drive on the left. Sell. Well
I did tonight. Okay, that's good.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So so so all that's quite easy, the system and
all that. The only things probably it's just not having
family here with me and I'm by myself. Other than that,
I think also navigating the system in New Zealand, including
(03:32):
university and the culture differences and all that are something
else to learn as well. But I think to me,
the biggest difference is that I can be myself because
I'm gay as well.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well let's go back then a way, but because you know,
when when you were growing up in Malaysia, you know
what what was kind of life like? You know, it
was your it was your family quite strict or you know,
was it was the high expectations for you know, you
just kind of kind of give us the picture of
life as young Ivan in Malaysia.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I think I grew up quite differently because my father
never really at home and we move a lot. Part
of the reason for it is because he first had
a gambling harm experience and also he's a gangster, and
so I moved a lot as a kids. And what
(04:36):
that means is now, when I look back, I realized
when they were tired, we were pretty much running away
from whoever that we trying to run away from. I
don't know who they are, and so I don't really
have a normal childhood if you ask me when I
look back, because we moving so much that I don't
(04:59):
even able to have friendships that last from school. On
top of that, I also experience, you know, like being
told by my father. I still remember in secondary school
if someone following me with ri car means that I
(05:24):
need to run away. And also we are not allowed
to tell people where we leave our telephone number, and
we have to constantly provide vote information about our family situation,
and we were being.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Pulled away from school.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I remember when I was thirteen years old, and because
father has some situations where we suddenly had to pack
and move and then I was moving from example, like
from Wellington to Auckland something like that, and then being
placed in a cousin house for a length of time.
(06:10):
And so to be honest, I never felt like I
have a childhood or I have a normal teenager life,
and that was due to truly my father's choices, first
you know, like a gain bring as one of the
biggest challenges, and then also eventually associated with you know,
(06:35):
like or to try and doing whatever that he was
doing to make quick money and consequently our whole family
paying for his actions. I mean, so as a society,
I say Malaysia is very good, but as my life,
when I look back, I always felt like it has
(06:59):
a huge impact on me as an individual, especially with
my depression, anxiety and also my EDUHD which was diagnosed
about three or four years ago, and I have huge
issue with anxiety in security, I'm not sure who I am,
(07:22):
being gay, being bully, and also not having that sense
of security and growing up watching my moms constantly worry
about money or what happened next, or where my father
were because when he go away, he could you know,
(07:44):
like disappear for a while. And as far as I
can remember he hasn't been living with us for a
long time. Even now he's where he lived, we still
don't know. But my parents still married and he still
don't disclose certain information to us. And when I took
(08:07):
my husband back to Malaysia, I say, look, you know,
like my father is against her, and he was quite worried.
But he is and what kind I also don't know,
and he certainly have done a lot of things that
now as an adult, I can tell a normal parents
(08:28):
wouldn't say those things to your kids. He teaches me
a lot how to read red flat instituation. I say,
you know, when you go to a nightclub or whatever
we callate nightclub, make sure that you know, like your
sister drink is being watched by you, you know, like
(08:50):
no one can touch it. Imagine that that I'm fifty three.
That was when I'm only eighteen. He will share information
about what one should or should not do under what's
against a certain stewations. And I thought, that's just you know,
my order father do things like that. But then I
(09:11):
now look back, I realized that no, because that made
me become extremely anxious all the time, because I just
constantly have to watch what's going on with my environment?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Ivan't I just wanted to ask you something that was
sort of rattling around my head as you were explaining
all of those scenarios. Now you've you've talked about, you know,
the fact that this constant vigilance that your father taught
you as a young person, you know, was really he
was doing it to protect you, you know, as is
kind of how I can imagine the rationale. But I wonder,
(09:46):
you know, you've talked about it of having you know,
having been the sort of the origins of your anxiety,
But in terms of the way you thought about it
as a kid, do you ever remember, you know, feeling
scared about, you know, what it was that your father
was telling you about. I think.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
I never really thought about it too much at first,
you know, like it's not quite the same time, I believe,
But I think I do have a lot of questions,
you know, like why he tells us all this, and
also I think as a young kid, I always quite sensitive. However,
(10:27):
I also don't believe I have the insight to identify
how my body felt, not until I came to New
Zealand when I studied psychology. Paper where there is a
segment about depressions anxiety. At that time, I only realized
(10:47):
that what I was experiencing world anxiety because there's no
reference for me to even compare how other people felt.
I do know, I feel tired all the time, I'm
very skinny, I don't have good advertise and also not
very good at kind of like articulating, articulating my thoughts
(11:12):
because all that does sign of being anxious, but no
one knew, and I have a severe timmy egg when
I am getting worried. I even have a period of
time where I couldn't get out from bed and no
one even know what's going on. And even when I
(11:34):
was about sixteen, I was on the bed for about
two weeks, not going to schools. No one even knew
what's going on, and my parents wasn't with me but
to me, because there's nothing else I can compare with.
So I don't even know those were problems.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, so look, tell me, there's there's so many places
in the world that you could have gone. Why New
Zealand and why when you were twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Ah, there's another story, because I think as someone who
grow up knowing I'm gay at the same time, also
seeing by witnessing what my mom's went through. In my head,
I always thinking about I need to be here with
my mom until when she passed away, and my thoughts were,
(12:29):
then I will go with her. And that was my
thought truly, And I do know how to live alivee
to pretend I'm straight, men, because I really didn't see
myself as a man on the other hand, and so
I just resigned myself not to get involved in relationship.
(12:52):
And because of all that, you know, like compounding factor
to a point where I think I start breaking down
and I have a huge argument with my mom, locked
myself in the bedroom and contemplating how I can do it. Yeah, exactly,
And because I felt I've been living for other people
(13:17):
my whole life and I still don't know and at
the time and so like you know, like despite what
happened to our family as a collective culture and the
Asian culture h hierarchical and patriarch patriarchal focused means that
anytime when our family had problems, we will still contact
(13:40):
our father. And so he knew I was, you know,
like locking myself in the room, and then they asked,
you know that, what do I want to do. I
just for some reason, I always felt like I need
to go away. I need to go somewhere else. I
have these passions about education, even though I never done
(14:03):
well in school. So I told my father I just
want to go oversee. I just want to go oversea
and study. And then he said, yep, I will pay
for you. But you know, like for a lot of
probably Western culture, you know, like usually people like my
(14:26):
age twenty something would have just you know, like look
after ourselves. But for us, you know, like collective culture
means that you always be the son. And so my father,
for some reason, he had the money. He agreed to
let me go oversee. And then I start the process
of studying English as adult and then get my exam
(14:49):
to pass the English Exam, and then that was done
in Australia and then came to New Zealand. However, all
that wasn't a conscious decisions how I'm going to do it.
Itwards just by choice, one thing lead to another, by chance,
I mean, having other people to guide me through. And
(15:10):
then I came to New Zealand and study social science.
What was adapting to New Zealand? Like for you Ivan, okay,
I show you a story, which, well, that's the whole
braason me here, so please do it. I have never
eaten chicken cold chicken in my whole life. And because
just to make my life easier, so I learned how
(15:32):
to eat sandwich. To my surprise, I have a cold
chicken in a sandwich. And just to make my life
even easier, I decided not to have rice. And the
first year I was hungry all the time, regardless how
much food I eat, because rice has been a double
(15:53):
food for me growing out, and as small as something
like that. It took about a year. Finally I suddenly
don't feel hungry anymore. I was able to eat sandwich,
eat potato fries and all that, and I feel, okay,
I'm not hungry. I can adjust to the bot and
(16:16):
pie I like. I love pies.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, what's your favorite kind of pie?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Then in the past bacon and ache. But now I
didn't eat bacon, so yeah, I didn't eat pie anymore.
All because I'm fifty fifty three.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So it's okay, all right, But yeah, because I mean
I was saying, I'm steak and cheese kind of guy. Yeah,
but you were the bacon and egg. Tell a lot
of the psychology of people and what kind of pies
they eat is quite deep, I think so anyway, but look,
moving moving on. So you know the other thing too,
was you know, you're gay and you were able now
(16:50):
to be and what I can only suppose, I mean
it was it was it hard to be gay in Malaysia?
Was it not accepted?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, it's still I mean because it's a Muslim country. Yeah,
so it's illegal all right, So it's still illegal. Yeah,
it's it's still illegal. And what that means, you know,
like our civil union, my partner and I when we
went back, we're just friend. I mean, my family knew
(17:19):
we together. There's not issues, but you know, like in
front of anyone, we're just friend. We're not a partner,
and we don't have the same rights. If anything that
goes wrong, means that our partnership and all that rights
would not be recognized in Malaysia, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, So what was it like being in a country
like New Zealand we're being gay? To be quite honest,
it's just sort of one of those things where you'd
be like, right, well, I mean if you're gay, well
we've got a whole bunch of bars here. On k road,
and you know there's that we have. We have whole
festivals and that's reasonably accepting and open and in most
(17:56):
most corners of the country.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I think in some way, yes, but I gives you
for example, like because I do multi kickboxing on Wednesday
and Friday, and so a lot of people thought I'm straight,
and I still have to come up to people all
the time I'm gay because questions to us or do
you have kids, or I say, oh, I'm gay, and
so yes, it is easier because then you know, like
(18:22):
people accept it, but it's still there's a degree of vulnerability,
even though there's the freedom of expressing who you are,
and it's still confronting who I am every day. Intern
of lifestyle. Absolutely, you know, like it's a possibility you
can find the same sex partner living in the country
(18:43):
where you have the freedom. But then in the micro
moment when you have to being asked, even in the
changing room, having conversations with someone you met all the
time and suddenly say, oh, do you have a wise
I have partner. I'm a gay, you know, and then
it became a kward moment, not for me, but for
some reason. If people haven't had a gay friend. They
(19:05):
all thought I'm going to jump on them, like, no,
I don't want to see your king.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
That will be wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I also want to picture you are any good in
front of you either?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
There's there's an awkward moment all the time in my
life that I just constantly had to face it.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But it was it was a lot different than it
being illegal. Hell yeah, But I guess I would mention
I would like to know is how does the son
of a gangster, uh, the guy that you know decides
to come and, you know, start a new life in
New Zealand, albeit you know, the more more freedom than
(19:44):
you've ever had, you know, the fact also you're gay
and all of this happens. What was the attraction to
mental health and how on earth did you get involved
with it?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I think the
fact is I always quite sensitive and I also very
caring as a nature, and having all this experience has
been something that I always felt like I want to
contribute to. I remember the first year in New Zealand,
(20:15):
I was so broken. I felt like I was on
my knee and think about I don't know how to
carry on. I'm not necessarily thinking about ending my life,
but I just don't feel like I can do it
for myself. And I remember I'm not literally just at all,
but I remember I was on my knee and thinking about,
(20:38):
oh my god, what should I do? How can I
just put my food in front of the other every day,
I just have this in a voice telling me do
it for communities and other people and so and so.
After you know, like I finished, I always wanted to
(20:59):
help other people who might have similar experience. And then
I came across the very first piloted mental health Pierce
upboard worker funded by Augland Health, New Zealand. So I
applied and I got it, and that was my very
first job into mental health. But even before that, I
(21:23):
also being a volunteer for you Flying as well and so.
But I know in my heart I always wanted to
help people. I don't know where that came from, probably
because I've been struggled my whole life. And I often
tell people I not that kind of friends you can
(21:47):
go and have party for, but I'm that kind of
friend who when you need someone to hold that space,
I'm definitely the right person. And I always had people
tell me a lot of secret, so I will be
going with a lot of secret in the future.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So how did you start your training and so your
formal part.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Of this because at the time peer support was still
very new, especially pain and funded, and so my own
body have their own internal training and all their training
were provided. But of course with the u Fly volunteery
training and also with my social science degree does help.
(22:32):
But most importantly what they're looking for is someone who
actually experienced some form of mental distress and recovery from it.
Not necessarily means that welly killed, but still living a
life and finding a way to look after my own
mental health and able to be a peer with someone
(22:53):
who had similar experience. And so our training was provided,
ongoing supervision was provided and also a framework which means
how you should work with someone. But at the time
was still a very early day and so there wasn't
as axac cut qualification and all that we were learning
(23:18):
while also reflecting with what we were doing because it
was it was not necessarily a first in New Zealand,
but is the first pay job as a Pierce up
brought and funded by the Auckland Health New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Now it's I mean it goes without saying that mental
health is universal in terms of its effects. But something
that I know for a fact, we haven't talked a
lot about on the show. We have sometimes, but we've
never really talked a lot about any differences or needs
about mental health within our Asian communities. Now you you've
done direct work within the Asian communities of New Zealand.
(24:00):
What you know, are there any differences in terms of
the mental health needs of Asian New Zealanders or is
it more about how you talk about That's important? Very
good questions.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I think the first thing is, uh, you know, like
we need to acknowledge that what we have used in
New Zealand is a biomedical Western model. And because of that,
what that mean is the Dragon languages and all that
sometimes when it's translated to other languages, my lack of
the context uh, and hence that create some barrier. And
(24:35):
also bear in mind for mental health. Uh. That is
in the Western concept, it's the only model that separates
mind and body. But if you look at all the
other Eastern health model, they often come with a holistic
so let's say yoga taichi, they always emphasize about breathing,
(24:56):
also bring mind and body together and hence that kind
of understanding or separating mind and body and then with
a negative uh deficit model are not well known and example,
like the suicide research in a Western country usually look
at it as a mental health issues, but in the
(25:19):
Asian country usually related to social and relationship issues. So
how we interpret certain things are very different. So as
a result, a lot of people do not understand the
western biomedical mental health and do not have necessary the
(25:41):
right understanding and languages to articulate it.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So the differences are somewhat and how you approach it
rather than actually what's the heart of it? Then?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yeah, and also how you address it because another thing is,
you know, if you tell another Asian person or you
have mental health issues, they will immediately say no, no, no,
I don't have. But if you say because of the
context of the situation and that's why they might feelings
in a kind of like psychological distress, they are more
(26:13):
likely to actually willing to accept it. Exactly how you
approach it is a big thing.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Now, look, Susie, you've been listening very patiently here, you know,
during during the show, and I think you know Ivan
that your your initial understanding and the experience, the personal
experience that you you have when it comes to mental
health is so deeply rooted in that experience of especially
you know, the gambling of your father and had been
(26:43):
involved with organized crime, the two obviously going hand in
hand together. But Susie, in terms of gambling addiction, you know,
when we talk about gambling addiction, we often think about
the individual, you know what, So let's just say, for instance,
I go and blow a grand you know, of money
that I had earmark for something else, and that's that's me,
(27:06):
that's my decision. But when we have families, when we
have relationships, the impact ends up being having a much
bigger impact on all of the other people in our life.
How pronounced and what are some of the issues we
know that can be created for people with gambling addictions,
(27:26):
you know, who have children, who have families.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Well, firstly, I wasn't listening patiently. I was absorbed in
Ivan's story and very typically, you know, the kinds of
things you were talking about, like being in your room
and that anxiety and that unpredictability. One day you're living somewhere.
In the next minute you're moving, you know, up to
the other part of Malaysia without warning and what happens
(27:54):
with that with the impact of someone else's gambling. I
think this research and I was just having a bit
of a look for it on the Problem Gambling Foundation.
Great resource by the way, for anyone who's interested to
find out a bit more. The impact on family infarno
is that the family infarno much more likely to be
(28:20):
higher US as a health care service in psychiatric services
than the general population. And that's probably something that you're
familiar with, Ivan And the other thing I just want
to pick up on, and I was listening to you
about that biomedical Western model because we look at gambling
addiction to gambling or alcohol or other drugs as a
(28:43):
biopsychosocial spiritual condition often. And of course you're talking about
collective cultures and the way that people look at things
differently and view things differently that someone might and I
really liked how you change the words around and said
for someone, oh, well, maybe because of what's this going on,
(29:03):
that's going on that means that person can reach out
for help. That's where I was going with because there's
so much shame attached to gambling and it is the
secret addiction and it has a profound impact on our society.
And we were looking at the gambling stats when we
were coming in here before, and people can do that,
there's a lot of shame. So that means the family
(29:25):
and fun I member themselves don't reach out for help.
Shame is a barrier, and you know there's that stigma
which stops people from reaching out for help. And that's
probably your experience too.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Right, Well, absolutely, I mean like even now as a family,
we still don't talk about my father came doing issues,
even though you know, like it's very apparent how he
behaves and we might laugh about it behind amongst you know,
steamplings because he will look letargic during Monday till Friday
(30:03):
because it's prefer gambling wood is hostpatting. But on a
weekend you behave like a different person, because means that
you will outfit.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Dopamine.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
The dopamine and the thing about gambling, and it's totally interesting.
It's not so much the one or the lose. It's
the anticipation is what gets people high. And I was
just looking at this so that you know, you were
talking about the feelings of guilt and frustration and helplessness
and you know rage which all of that stuff suppressed.
Of course you'll be in your room for two weeks thinking,
(30:37):
you know, how what am I going to do? Very
very common impact of gambling on Feminine Founder members.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
If you want to know how much money is being
spent on gambling in New Zealand, well I can give
you just one little snapshot when it comes to pokey machines.
You all know what a poke machine is. Okay, well
try this on for size. If you want to know
how much money was, Oh well, I'll tell you how
(31:04):
many pokey machines there are nationwide? How about that thirteen thousand,
nine hundred and eighty five pokey machines nationally right, just
today it is believed that there is This is how
much money those pokey machines have taken. Those have taken today.
They have taken two million, seven hundred and three dollars,
(31:26):
seven hundred and thirty five thirty five dollars. No, now
it's nine hundred and sixty one and just as I'm talking,
it's now ticked over to two million, seven hundred and
four dollars today. In all this year, six hundred and
fifty nine, three hundred and fifty three thousand dollars the
(31:47):
amount of money lost on Poke's last year in New Zealand.
Their amount of money lost on it one point zero
two billion. That's a lot of coins going through the
pokeing machines. Just incredible. So in terms and I share
those numbers with you tonight because in terms of you
(32:09):
so of saying, well, you know, how big is the problem,
there's a lot of money by anyone's standards. So now,
I mean we talked, we've talked a little bit about
you know, the gambling and in terms of you know
what's going on in Malaysia, you know, with your own
your own family ivan, but you know, we know that
there's problem gambling issues very clearly here in New Zealand too, right.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, that's right, to be honest. You know, like gambling
harm where we talk about is someone who usually experienced
man moderate to severe issues when it comes to gambling
and hammers. You'll cover pogies, but there's also you know,
like spot patting and also casino as well as a
(32:53):
lotta as well. And what people don't often think about
is the productivities that lasts, you know, like making someone
in the poky machines that can be two hours, three hours,
four hours. That is the time when someone taking away
from where the possibility of having fun with families and
friends and on top dat quite often where we're only
(33:16):
thinking about someone where that they can afford money or lot.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That's it for this episode of The Nutters Club, thanks
to Susie Morrison and our guest Ivan Yo. If you
like what you heard and think it might help someone
out there, then please share this episode on your own
channels or with family and friends. And if you ever
want to be part of the show, give us a
call or text. When we broadcast live on News Talk
seed B eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand standard time.
(33:45):
Check out News Talk SeeDB dot co dot inz for
local frequencies or a link to the live stream. A
big thanks to New Zealand on Air for their ongoing
support and making the show. Take care and always remember
the world's a better place with you in it. Life
it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
For more from newstalkset B, listen live on air or
online and keep our shows with you wherever you go
with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome. I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to
the podcast version of The Nutters Club, a radio show
broadcast on News Talk seed B that talks about mental
health and shares helpful tips about how to live with
your own. The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights
on News Talk seid B right across New Zealand and
around the world since two thousand and nine, Real people
(00:44):
sharing their stories in their words to help others. This week,
I was joined by addictions specialist Susie Morrison as well
as our guest Ivan Yoe, a long time mental health advocate.
Ivan's story taught me a few things related to the
experience of resilience through personal change and transformation, as well
(01:06):
as the need for cultural consideration and sensitivity and mental
health and most prominently the ripple effects of gambling addiction.
Let us know what you learned from the chat with
Ivan on any of our social media platforms. Just search
for the Nutters Club Z. Tell us a little bit
about yourself. You know the accent, Where does that come from.
(01:29):
Where are you born? Where did you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
This jump right T and I thought I at least
have a time to breath a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Of that, So no, we're going straight for it. On.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So I was born in Singapore and raised from Malaysia
and came to New Zealand in two thousand and one.
Usually I tell people I was meeting Singapore process from
Malaysia and export it to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So where did you grow up then? Where was your
sort of you know, your early years of schooling and education.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Malaysia beg part of it until I was twenty eight
and then I came to New Zealand as an internet
and a student.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, tell us a little bit about growing up in Malaysia.
You know, it's very very different to you know, what
New Zealanders would would experience, I suppose. So what are
some of those differences now that you think back to
them in terms of what your life was like?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Actually that is the funny things because when first time
I was on the bus in New Zealand and in
Malaysia where you have Malay, Chinese and also Indian, and
I was sitting in the bus, It's like, oh wow,
this is just like Malaysia because it's not a monoculture.
You get to see a lot of people, and so
(02:43):
that was quite easy. I think the differences truly is
by a way, Malaysia also was colonized by British, so
you can imagine, you know that a lot of system
not that pretty much the same, including driving on the
what the right hand side? Is that correct? Right hand side?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Left? Yeah, there we drive on the left. Sell. Well
I did tonight. Okay, that's good.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So so so all that's quite easy, the system and
all that. The only things probably it's just not having
family here with me and I'm by myself. Other than that,
I think also navigating the system in New Zealand, including
(03:32):
university and the culture differences and all that are something
else to learn as well. But I think to me,
the biggest difference is that I can be myself because
I'm gay as well.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well let's go back then a way, but because you know,
when when you were growing up in Malaysia, you know
what what was kind of life like? You know, it
was your it was your family quite strict or you know,
was it was the high expectations for you know, you
just kind of kind of give us the picture of
life as young Ivan in Malaysia.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I think I grew up quite differently because my father
never really at home and we move a lot. Part
of the reason for it is because he first had
a gambling harm experience and also he's a gangster, and
so I moved a lot as a kids. And what
(04:36):
that means is now, when I look back, I realized
when they were tired, we were pretty much running away
from whoever that we trying to run away from. I
don't know who they are, and so I don't really
have a normal childhood if you ask me when I
look back, because we moving so much that I don't
(04:59):
even able to have friendships that last from school. On
top of that, I also experience, you know, like being
told by my father. I still remember in secondary school
if someone following me with ri car means that I
(05:24):
need to run away. And also we are not allowed
to tell people where we leave our telephone number, and
we have to constantly provide vote information about our family situation,
and we were being.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Pulled away from school.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I remember when I was thirteen years old, and because
father has some situations where we suddenly had to pack
and move and then I was moving from example, like
from Wellington to Auckland something like that, and then being
placed in a cousin house for a length of time.
(06:10):
And so to be honest, I never felt like I
have a childhood or I have a normal teenager life,
and that was due to truly my father's choices, first
you know, like a gain bring as one of the
biggest challenges, and then also eventually associated with you know,
(06:35):
like or to try and doing whatever that he was
doing to make quick money and consequently our whole family
paying for his actions. I mean, so as a society,
I say Malaysia is very good, but as my life,
when I look back, I always felt like it has
(06:59):
a huge impact on me as an individual, especially with
my depression, anxiety and also my EDUHD which was diagnosed
about three or four years ago, and I have huge
issue with anxiety in security, I'm not sure who I am,
(07:22):
being gay, being bully, and also not having that sense
of security and growing up watching my moms constantly worry
about money or what happened next, or where my father
were because when he go away, he could you know,
(07:44):
like disappear for a while. And as far as I
can remember he hasn't been living with us for a
long time. Even now he's where he lived, we still
don't know. But my parents still married and he still
don't disclose certain information to us. And when I took
(08:07):
my husband back to Malaysia, I say, look, you know,
like my father is against her, and he was quite worried.
But he is and what kind I also don't know,
and he certainly have done a lot of things that
now as an adult, I can tell a normal parents
(08:28):
wouldn't say those things to your kids. He teaches me
a lot how to read red flat instituation. I say,
you know, when you go to a nightclub or whatever
we callate nightclub, make sure that you know, like your
sister drink is being watched by you, you know, like
(08:50):
no one can touch it. Imagine that that I'm fifty three.
That was when I'm only eighteen. He will share information
about what one should or should not do under what's
against a certain stewations. And I thought, that's just you know,
my order father do things like that. But then I
(09:11):
now look back, I realized that no, because that made
me become extremely anxious all the time, because I just
constantly have to watch what's going on with my environment?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Ivan't I just wanted to ask you something that was
sort of rattling around my head as you were explaining
all of those scenarios. Now you've you've talked about, you know,
the fact that this constant vigilance that your father taught
you as a young person, you know, was really he
was doing it to protect you, you know, as is
kind of how I can imagine the rationale. But I wonder,
(09:46):
you know, you've talked about it of having you know,
having been the sort of the origins of your anxiety,
But in terms of the way you thought about it
as a kid, do you ever remember, you know, feeling
scared about, you know, what it was that your father
was telling you about. I think.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
I never really thought about it too much at first,
you know, like it's not quite the same time, I believe,
But I think I do have a lot of questions,
you know, like why he tells us all this, and
also I think as a young kid, I always quite sensitive. However,
(10:27):
I also don't believe I have the insight to identify
how my body felt, not until I came to New
Zealand when I studied psychology. Paper where there is a
segment about depressions anxiety. At that time, I only realized
(10:47):
that what I was experiencing world anxiety because there's no
reference for me to even compare how other people felt.
I do know, I feel tired all the time, I'm
very skinny, I don't have good advertise and also not
very good at kind of like articulating, articulating my thoughts
(11:12):
because all that does sign of being anxious, but no
one knew, and I have a severe timmy egg when
I am getting worried. I even have a period of
time where I couldn't get out from bed and no
one even know what's going on. And even when I
(11:34):
was about sixteen, I was on the bed for about
two weeks, not going to schools. No one even knew
what's going on, and my parents wasn't with me but
to me, because there's nothing else I can compare with.
So I don't even know those were problems.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, so look, tell me, there's there's so many places
in the world that you could have gone. Why New
Zealand and why when you were twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Ah, there's another story, because I think as someone who
grow up knowing I'm gay at the same time, also
seeing by witnessing what my mom's went through. In my head,
I always thinking about I need to be here with
my mom until when she passed away, and my thoughts were,
(12:29):
then I will go with her. And that was my
thought truly, And I do know how to live alivee
to pretend I'm straight, men, because I really didn't see
myself as a man on the other hand, and so
I just resigned myself not to get involved in relationship.
(12:52):
And because of all that, you know, like compounding factor
to a point where I think I start breaking down
and I have a huge argument with my mom, locked
myself in the bedroom and contemplating how I can do it. Yeah, exactly,
And because I felt I've been living for other people
(13:17):
my whole life and I still don't know and at
the time and so like you know, like despite what
happened to our family as a collective culture and the
Asian culture h hierarchical and patriarch patriarchal focused means that
anytime when our family had problems, we will still contact
(13:40):
our father. And so he knew I was, you know,
like locking myself in the room, and then they asked,
you know that, what do I want to do. I
just for some reason, I always felt like I need
to go away. I need to go somewhere else. I
have these passions about education, even though I never done
(14:03):
well in school. So I told my father I just
want to go oversee. I just want to go oversea
and study. And then he said, yep, I will pay
for you. But you know, like for a lot of
probably Western culture, you know, like usually people like my
(14:26):
age twenty something would have just you know, like look
after ourselves. But for us, you know, like collective culture
means that you always be the son. And so my father,
for some reason, he had the money. He agreed to
let me go oversee. And then I start the process
of studying English as adult and then get my exam
(14:49):
to pass the English Exam, and then that was done
in Australia and then came to New Zealand. However, all
that wasn't a conscious decisions how I'm going to do it.
Itwards just by choice, one thing lead to another, by chance,
I mean, having other people to guide me through. And
(15:10):
then I came to New Zealand and study social science.
What was adapting to New Zealand? Like for you Ivan, okay,
I show you a story, which, well, that's the whole
braason me here, so please do it. I have never
eaten chicken cold chicken in my whole life. And because
just to make my life easier, so I learned how
(15:32):
to eat sandwich. To my surprise, I have a cold
chicken in a sandwich. And just to make my life
even easier, I decided not to have rice. And the
first year I was hungry all the time, regardless how
much food I eat, because rice has been a double
(15:53):
food for me growing out, and as small as something
like that. It took about a year. Finally I suddenly
don't feel hungry anymore. I was able to eat sandwich,
eat potato fries and all that, and I feel, okay,
I'm not hungry. I can adjust to the bot and
(16:16):
pie I like. I love pies.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, what's your favorite kind of pie?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Then in the past bacon and ache. But now I
didn't eat bacon, so yeah, I didn't eat pie anymore.
All because I'm fifty fifty three.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So it's okay, all right, But yeah, because I mean
I was saying, I'm steak and cheese kind of guy. Yeah,
but you were the bacon and egg. Tell a lot
of the psychology of people and what kind of pies
they eat is quite deep, I think so anyway, but look,
moving moving on. So you know the other thing too,
was you know, you're gay and you were able now
(16:50):
to be and what I can only suppose, I mean
it was it was it hard to be gay in Malaysia?
Was it not accepted?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, it's still I mean because it's a Muslim country. Yeah,
so it's illegal all right, So it's still illegal. Yeah,
it's it's still illegal. And what that means, you know,
like our civil union, my partner and I when we
went back, we're just friend. I mean, my family knew
(17:19):
we together. There's not issues, but you know, like in
front of anyone, we're just friend. We're not a partner,
and we don't have the same rights. If anything that
goes wrong, means that our partnership and all that rights
would not be recognized in Malaysia, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, So what was it like being in a country
like New Zealand we're being gay? To be quite honest,
it's just sort of one of those things where you'd
be like, right, well, I mean if you're gay, well
we've got a whole bunch of bars here. On k road,
and you know there's that we have. We have whole
festivals and that's reasonably accepting and open and in most
(17:56):
most corners of the country.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I think in some way, yes, but I gives you
for example, like because I do multi kickboxing on Wednesday
and Friday, and so a lot of people thought I'm straight,
and I still have to come up to people all
the time I'm gay because questions to us or do
you have kids, or I say, oh, I'm gay, and
so yes, it is easier because then you know, like
(18:22):
people accept it, but it's still there's a degree of vulnerability,
even though there's the freedom of expressing who you are,
and it's still confronting who I am every day. Intern
of lifestyle. Absolutely, you know, like it's a possibility you
can find the same sex partner living in the country
(18:43):
where you have the freedom. But then in the micro
moment when you have to being asked, even in the
changing room, having conversations with someone you met all the
time and suddenly say, oh, do you have a wise
I have partner. I'm a gay, you know, and then
it became a kward moment, not for me, but for
some reason. If people haven't had a gay friend. They
(19:05):
all thought I'm going to jump on them, like, no,
I don't want to see your king.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
That will be wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I also want to picture you are any good in
front of you either?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
There's there's an awkward moment all the time in my
life that I just constantly had to face it.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But it was it was a lot different than it
being illegal. Hell yeah, But I guess I would mention
I would like to know is how does the son
of a gangster, uh, the guy that you know decides
to come and, you know, start a new life in
New Zealand, albeit you know, the more more freedom than
(19:44):
you've ever had, you know, the fact also you're gay
and all of this happens. What was the attraction to
mental health and how on earth did you get involved
with it?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I think the
fact is I always quite sensitive and I also very
caring as a nature, and having all this experience has
been something that I always felt like I want to
contribute to. I remember the first year in New Zealand,
(20:15):
I was so broken. I felt like I was on
my knee and think about I don't know how to
carry on. I'm not necessarily thinking about ending my life,
but I just don't feel like I can do it
for myself. And I remember I'm not literally just at all,
but I remember I was on my knee and thinking about,
(20:38):
oh my god, what should I do? How can I
just put my food in front of the other every day,
I just have this in a voice telling me do
it for communities and other people and so and so.
After you know, like I finished, I always wanted to
(20:59):
help other people who might have similar experience. And then
I came across the very first piloted mental health Pierce
upboard worker funded by Augland Health, New Zealand. So I
applied and I got it, and that was my very
first job into mental health. But even before that, I
(21:23):
also being a volunteer for you Flying as well and so.
But I know in my heart I always wanted to
help people. I don't know where that came from, probably
because I've been struggled my whole life. And I often
tell people I not that kind of friends you can
(21:47):
go and have party for, but I'm that kind of
friend who when you need someone to hold that space,
I'm definitely the right person. And I always had people
tell me a lot of secret, so I will be
going with a lot of secret in the future.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So how did you start your training and so your
formal part.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Of this because at the time peer support was still
very new, especially pain and funded, and so my own
body have their own internal training and all their training
were provided. But of course with the u Fly volunteery
training and also with my social science degree does help.
(22:32):
But most importantly what they're looking for is someone who
actually experienced some form of mental distress and recovery from it.
Not necessarily means that welly killed, but still living a
life and finding a way to look after my own
mental health and able to be a peer with someone
(22:53):
who had similar experience. And so our training was provided,
ongoing supervision was provided and also a framework which means
how you should work with someone. But at the time
was still a very early day and so there wasn't
as axac cut qualification and all that we were learning
(23:18):
while also reflecting with what we were doing because it
was it was not necessarily a first in New Zealand,
but is the first pay job as a Pierce up
brought and funded by the Auckland Health New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Now it's I mean it goes without saying that mental
health is universal in terms of its effects. But something
that I know for a fact, we haven't talked a
lot about on the show. We have sometimes, but we've
never really talked a lot about any differences or needs
about mental health within our Asian communities. Now you you've
done direct work within the Asian communities of New Zealand.
(24:00):
What you know, are there any differences in terms of
the mental health needs of Asian New Zealanders or is
it more about how you talk about That's important? Very
good questions.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I think the first thing is, uh, you know, like
we need to acknowledge that what we have used in
New Zealand is a biomedical Western model. And because of that,
what that mean is the Dragon languages and all that
sometimes when it's translated to other languages, my lack of
the context uh, and hence that create some barrier. And
(24:35):
also bear in mind for mental health. Uh. That is
in the Western concept, it's the only model that separates
mind and body. But if you look at all the
other Eastern health model, they often come with a holistic
so let's say yoga taichi, they always emphasize about breathing,
(24:56):
also bring mind and body together and hence that kind
of understanding or separating mind and body and then with
a negative uh deficit model are not well known and example,
like the suicide research in a Western country usually look
at it as a mental health issues, but in the
(25:19):
Asian country usually related to social and relationship issues. So
how we interpret certain things are very different. So as
a result, a lot of people do not understand the
western biomedical mental health and do not have necessary the
(25:41):
right understanding and languages to articulate it.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So the differences are somewhat and how you approach it
rather than actually what's the heart of it? Then?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yeah, and also how you address it because another thing is,
you know, if you tell another Asian person or you
have mental health issues, they will immediately say no, no, no,
I don't have. But if you say because of the
context of the situation and that's why they might feelings
in a kind of like psychological distress, they are more
(26:13):
likely to actually willing to accept it. Exactly how you
approach it is a big thing.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Now, look, Susie, you've been listening very patiently here, you know,
during during the show, and I think you know Ivan
that your your initial understanding and the experience, the personal
experience that you you have when it comes to mental
health is so deeply rooted in that experience of especially
you know, the gambling of your father and had been
(26:43):
involved with organized crime, the two obviously going hand in
hand together. But Susie, in terms of gambling addiction, you know,
when we talk about gambling addiction, we often think about
the individual, you know what, So let's just say, for instance,
I go and blow a grand you know, of money
that I had earmark for something else, and that's that's me,
(27:06):
that's my decision. But when we have families, when we
have relationships, the impact ends up being having a much
bigger impact on all of the other people in our life.
How pronounced and what are some of the issues we
know that can be created for people with gambling addictions,
(27:26):
you know, who have children, who have families.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Well, firstly, I wasn't listening patiently. I was absorbed in
Ivan's story and very typically, you know, the kinds of
things you were talking about, like being in your room
and that anxiety and that unpredictability. One day you're living somewhere.
In the next minute you're moving, you know, up to
the other part of Malaysia without warning and what happens
(27:54):
with that with the impact of someone else's gambling. I
think this research and I was just having a bit
of a look for it on the Problem Gambling Foundation.
Great resource by the way, for anyone who's interested to
find out a bit more. The impact on family infarno
is that the family infarno much more likely to be
(28:20):
higher US as a health care service in psychiatric services
than the general population. And that's probably something that you're
familiar with, Ivan And the other thing I just want
to pick up on, and I was listening to you
about that biomedical Western model because we look at gambling
addiction to gambling or alcohol or other drugs as a
(28:43):
biopsychosocial spiritual condition often. And of course you're talking about
collective cultures and the way that people look at things
differently and view things differently that someone might and I
really liked how you change the words around and said
for someone, oh, well, maybe because of what's this going on,
(29:03):
that's going on that means that person can reach out
for help. That's where I was going with because there's
so much shame attached to gambling and it is the
secret addiction and it has a profound impact on our society.
And we were looking at the gambling stats when we
were coming in here before, and people can do that,
there's a lot of shame. So that means the family
(29:25):
and fun I member themselves don't reach out for help.
Shame is a barrier, and you know there's that stigma
which stops people from reaching out for help. And that's
probably your experience too.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Right, Well, absolutely, I mean like even now as a family,
we still don't talk about my father came doing issues,
even though you know, like it's very apparent how he
behaves and we might laugh about it behind amongst you know,
steamplings because he will look letargic during Monday till Friday
(30:03):
because it's prefer gambling wood is hostpatting. But on a
weekend you behave like a different person, because means that
you will outfit.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Dopamine.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
The dopamine and the thing about gambling, and it's totally interesting.
It's not so much the one or the lose. It's
the anticipation is what gets people high. And I was
just looking at this so that you know, you were
talking about the feelings of guilt and frustration and helplessness
and you know rage which all of that stuff suppressed.
Of course you'll be in your room for two weeks thinking,
(30:37):
you know, how what am I going to do? Very
very common impact of gambling on Feminine Founder members.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
If you want to know how much money is being
spent on gambling in New Zealand, well I can give
you just one little snapshot when it comes to pokey machines.
You all know what a poke machine is. Okay, well
try this on for size. If you want to know
how much money was, Oh well, I'll tell you how
(31:04):
many pokey machines there are nationwide? How about that thirteen thousand,
nine hundred and eighty five pokey machines nationally right, just
today it is believed that there is This is how
much money those pokey machines have taken. Those have taken today.
They have taken two million, seven hundred and three dollars,
(31:26):
seven hundred and thirty five thirty five dollars. No, now
it's nine hundred and sixty one and just as I'm talking,
it's now ticked over to two million, seven hundred and
four dollars today. In all this year, six hundred and
fifty nine, three hundred and fifty three thousand dollars the
(31:47):
amount of money lost on Poke's last year in New Zealand.
Their amount of money lost on it one point zero
two billion. That's a lot of coins going through the
pokeing machines. Just incredible. So in terms and I share
those numbers with you tonight because in terms of you
(32:09):
so of saying, well, you know, how big is the problem,
there's a lot of money by anyone's standards. So now,
I mean we talked, we've talked a little bit about
you know, the gambling and in terms of you know
what's going on in Malaysia, you know, with your own
your own family ivan, but you know, we know that
there's problem gambling issues very clearly here in New Zealand too, right.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, that's right, to be honest. You know, like gambling
harm where we talk about is someone who usually experienced
man moderate to severe issues when it comes to gambling
and hammers. You'll cover pogies, but there's also you know,
like spot patting and also casino as well as a
(32:53):
lotta as well. And what people don't often think about
is the productivities that lasts, you know, like making someone
in the poky machines that can be two hours, three hours,
four hours. That is the time when someone taking away
from where the possibility of having fun with families and
friends and on top dat quite often where we're only
(33:16):
thinking about someone where that they can afford money or lot.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That's it for this episode of The Nutters Club, thanks
to Susie Morrison and our guest Ivan Yo. If you
like what you heard and think it might help someone
out there, then please share this episode on your own
channels or with family and friends. And if you ever
want to be part of the show, give us a
call or text. When we broadcast live on News Talk
seed B eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand standard time.
(33:45):
Check out News Talk SeeDB dot co dot inz for
local frequencies or a link to the live stream. A
big thanks to New Zealand on Air for their ongoing
support and making the show. Take care and always remember
the world's a better place with you in it. Life
it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
For more from newstalkset B, listen live on air or
online and keep our shows with you wherever you go
with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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