November 26, 2025 • 38 mins
Anton Blank, a writer, researcher, and former social worker, shared his deeply personal journey of navigating identity, addiction, and recovery, offering a powerful insight into the challenges of growing up feeling different and finding purpose through adversity.
Born in New Zealand to a Māori mother and a Swiss father, Blank’s childhood was shaped by a unique blend of cultures. Raised in a predominantly Māori community, he was acutely aware of his “otherness,” stemming from his father’s European heritage and his own early awareness of being gay. Growing up in the 1960s and 70s, Blank struggled with feelings of isolation and shame, as societal acceptance of LGBTQ+ identities was virtually nonexistent. His parents, both educators and creative thinkers, provided a nurturing yet unconventional upbringing, which further set him apart from his peers.
As a young adult, Blank found a sense of belonging in the gay community, but this came with exposure to substance use. Alcohol and drugs became a way to escape the shame and anxiety he had carried since childhood. While initially offering relief, his substance use escalated, eventually leading to addiction. By his late 30s, Blank’s life began to unravel, and the arrival of methamphetamine in Wellington marked a dangerous turning point. It wasn’t until he was arrested for drug possession in his mid-40s that he realized the severity of his addiction and decided to seek help.
Blank’s recovery journey was long and complex. He sought support through counseling and mental health services, where he learned to manage his depression and anxiety. Medication and simple strategies, such as planning his days and focusing on self-care, played a crucial role in his healing. Ultimately, he found lasting support in a 12-step program, which provided him with a framework for sobriety, spirituality, and personal growth.
Now in recovery, Blank has dedicated his life to social justice and advocacy. His work as a writer and researcher focuses on addressing systemic racism, implicit bias, and inequality, particularly within Māori communities. Drawing from his own experiences, he aims to inspire change and foster understanding through his creative and professional endeavors.
Blank’s story is one of resilience and transformation, highlighting the importance of self-love, acceptance, and finding purpose. His journey serves as a beacon of hope for those facing similar struggles, proving that recovery and personal growth are possible, even in the face of profound challenges.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to the podcast version
of The Nasses Club, a show about mental health broadcast
weekly on News Talk SAIDB. Each week we meet people
who talk about their own experiences with mental health and
the hope that ED might help you with your own.
The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights on news
(00:43):
Talalk said B right across New Zealand and around the world.
This week, psychotherapist Carl MacDonald and addiction specialist Susie Morrison
spoke with and Tom Blank about his drug addiction and
recovery that led to his personal journey of identity and
overcoming challenges. Let us know what you think, as well
(01:04):
as what you learn from our chat on any of
our social media platforms. Just search for The Nasses Club
in z Let's get into this week's episode.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I have a Maori mother from Najbuau and my father
was a Swiss migrant who came to Alteror in nineteen
fifty two and he was a photographer when he arrived,
(01:35):
but he and my mother then moved into teaching once
they were married. So I was born in the whole
younger in Rawani because they were the teachers at the
high school at Pungaru. So first five years spent in
Pangaroo and then moved down to Tamaki.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
What are your memories of Pungodu. It's a beautiful part
of the country.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
My memories of Pungaru are sort of warm. So we certainly,
you know, the locals sort of looked after us and
cared for us while our parents were working. We did
(02:27):
kind of stand out because of my father. So there
were only maybe three or four part here in the
in the in the settlement, the you know, the shop owners,
the priests and the nuns up at the convent, and
my dad. So it was really being immersed in a
(02:51):
in a Maori world with these you know, with a
handful of park here. But I think having having a
park here father in that environment sort of made us
a little bit different to the other kids. So lots
of warm memories, but also kind of aware of my difference,
(03:11):
my otherness, and also sort of alongside that was my sexuality.
And you know, from my earliest memory, I knew that
I was gay, I may not have been able to
call it that, but sort of intensely aware of being
(03:32):
different to other boys as well, So a kind of
a mixture of feeling part of but also kind of
this early awareness of being other.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Being different somehow. Yeah, you said us, you have brothers, sisters.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I have one sister, Marina, who's a year older than me.
So yeah, just two children. My mum was actually one
of thirteen. She's a good Yaji Proro stock. She was
a car from Rangichukia, which is a small village probably
about forty minutes away from Ruatoria. So big Farno steeped
(04:19):
in the Anglican church. We've got lots of Anglican ministers
in our Farno. And also, you know, being entrepreneur, we
had Abernato who encouraged encouraged us to be educated. So
very educated family and in a very large family. But
(04:43):
out of those thirteen children, there were only seven grandchildren.
So it was right on the cusp of Maori moving
away from rural areas into the city. And I think
once they moved to the city, we did see less children,
few children, and I think people had more life choices
(05:06):
as well. You know that. You know, my mum and
dad were thinking about other things like traveling back to Switzerland,
and they were making really different life choices to the
generations before.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned the sort of the urbanization.
Was that What were your parents particular reasons for moving
to Auckland You said it was where you came.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Yeah, Well, for mums, she left the village to go
to school, so she went down to Hastings to Saint
Joseph's Girls' School and then she went to university. And
that was true for some of her siblings. I mean
they were also sort of blue collar workers, but everyone
(05:49):
moved to the city to work and be educated. And
that was you know, within a very short space of time,
like ten twenty years, there was this really significant change
right across Ewie Maori of the urbanization and increasing opportunities
and education.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Where'd you end up going to high school? Then?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
So I was so we moved to beech Haveven on
Norshore and went to Berkdale College which is now known
as Birkenhead College. My experience there was I think that
Paula Morris in her novel Queen of Beauty, she has
(06:35):
the best descriptions of suburban Auckland. I feel of my time,
So how would I describe it? Pretty boring rightly? And
you know, again being aware of my sexuality in the
sixties and seventies, there was nothing sort of there was
(06:58):
nothing to tell me that what I was feeling was
normal and healthy. So, you know, moving on from what
I was talking about in Pangaru again, in this increasing
sense of otherness.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, well, in those days, there was no sense of
obvious communities that people could sort of join or become
part of if they didn't if they felt different, where
there was terms of their sexuality or even just culturally,
those things were quite hidden in those days.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
They yeah, I think so. Yeah, And for in terms
of sexuality and being a gay child, there was nothing.
I didn't know any gay teachers, there was nothing on TV.
There was mister Humphreys and are you being served? There
were no books for gay children to read, There was
(07:49):
no pride parade. So you really I felt that I
was really sort of trapped with this kind of internal struggle.
And I knew from a very very early age, from
my earliest memories, that it wasn't okay to talk to
other people about it. So, you know, I think, and
that's very common. I've talked to other men of my
(08:11):
generation and that was very common for us. But yeah,
that was my experience growing up.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What was the impact on you of feeling different at
a time where difference wasn't necessarily welcome in our culture
here and alt at all?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
No, And I think it was sort of It wasn't
just about my sexuality, but it was also about my
parents being very different. So Dad was I mean, he
wasn't just Parkier, he was really very very Swiss and
he never really completely assimilated with the culture here. And equally,
when he went back to Switzerland, he didn't really fit
(08:47):
in there either because he'd been away so long. So
he was really in this sort of strange in between space,
but very different to other New Zealanders. And my mum
was a poet and a writer, so she had this
whole creative thing going on, So they were both they're
(09:08):
both kind of eccentric and bohemian, and their friends were
also a similar vein. So they were friends with people
like Eric Schwimmer, who was the first anthropologist to write
about Maori culture. You know, mum was friends with other
(09:29):
Mary writers and artists. So so it was my upbringing
with my sister and my parents was completely different to
my friends at school. So the kind of the sense
of being different and other was happening on a whole
lot of levels. And tied up with that was my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So did you find it tricky then to make connections
and friends and have those those relationships at school, because
I mean, what you're saying is that your family at
home would have been very different than the families of
other kids.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Now, I wouldn't say that I found it difficult to
make friends. I think what was difficult was to allow
people into our home, right, So I think because I
was aware of how my parents were and probably a
(10:27):
little bit protective of them in terms of people coming
into our world and not understanding them or perhaps making
judgments about them, I think that was probably the more
difficult dimension of establishing friendships and relationships, was letting people
(10:51):
write in. And when I think about sort of primary
school and high school, the number of friends who did
actually come into our home was reasonably small, and I
was kind of selective about who could to that and
a sanctum, if you.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Will, Yeah, it was a protected space in a way. Yes,
you mentioned that there was there was a struggle within
you around difference, and how did that struggle start to
show up in your life as a young person or
as you moved into adulthood.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Okay, well, I mean definitely lots of anxiety as a teenager,
anxiety and depression, and then as and and then as
an adult as I found my tribe, and in terms
of sort of finding a gay community and network in
(11:45):
my time, that was done either through bars or sex venues.
So that kind of took me into a whole other
kind of hedonistic world. And you know, drugs was a
big part of that. And I think for those of us,
you know, men of my generation, men and women of
(12:07):
my general that the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties
were quite a hedonistic period and having sex was a
really important part of that sort of developing identity. And
I think when you know, we were talking about young
(12:29):
people just before about how they're much more able to
find their tribe. There's much more visibility at school.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's sort of more obvious now and you know where
those tribes are, I think exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And they also have the digital world where they can
connect and nowaday it was much more kind of underground
and like I said, a little bit more hedonistic than
what I see happening now.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So did that come with did that come with an
experience of shame for you, the undergroundness, or you know,
the feeling of being that different. I'm just sort of
wondering whether actually it was there were challenges even just
about feeling like you had to hide or did you
feel very out in terms of your life as an
adult man?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
No, I think sort of in that closed world, that's
where the hedonism comes from, because we were so used
to kind of hiding ourselves. So in the in the
safety of this gay world, there was kind of a hedonism,
a kind of a euphoria that that went with it.
(13:35):
But certainly, yeah, I think all of us have had
to process and come to terms with a lot of
shame and learn to really love that part of ourselves
but also love it in other people. And I think
in terms of sort of family life at the time,
(13:56):
we were really forced to go outside the family structure
to find our tribe, and we were loving each other
for the thing that we're felt shame about.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Did did your parents know that you were living this life?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
They? I think they. I mean, I came out when
I was like twenty six, twenty seven with my parents,
so you know, that was not easy for them. I
think they were aware of the hedonism, but it was
they kind of had a polite sort of They were
(14:35):
a little bit detached and away, right. They let me
live my life, and I think there are probably aspects
of it that they didn't approve of or were concerned about,
but they were also very aware of what they couldn't control,
and I think in that way they had quite.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
A healthy, quite good boundaries in a way.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Boundaries and distance from my life.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How did drugs start to enter your life at that time?
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Well, like I said, so the places that we met
were in bars and nightclubs and sex venues, so alcohol
was the kind of the key to the door, and
then obviously drugs became part of the mix as well.
(15:29):
The first drug I remember taking actually was prescription drugs
with my cousin when I was about sixteen. But then
when I found the kind of the gay world in
my mid twenties, you know, it was acid and then
ecstasy and and you know, I remember taking those things
for the first time and really feeling like, oh, this
(15:51):
is actually what I've been looking for, right, you know this,
and particularly with the first ecstasy I talk of just
feeling so connected to other people. That was at the
first Hero party. And also with it was that euphoria
(16:13):
which really lifted me right out of the darkness and
the shame that you know, I'd felt and lived with
since childhood. So for all those reasons, it was a
really intoxicating mix. And for a while it was really
great fun.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, So it was just a good thing for a
while as part of your life. Didn't cause any obvious problems.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I would say that probably when you know, if I'm
to be really honest, I think the problem started fairly
early on, so within you know, within twelve months of
sort of the habitual use of drugs and alcohol. You know,
I could see now looking back that things were starting
(17:00):
to fall apart at the seams and my work was suffering,
relationships were suffering. So I can see actually from quite
an early stage that the you know, the warning signs
were there.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And what age were these warning signs.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
I'd say that that started in my late twenties, yeah,
and then I went through periods where I wouldn't use,
and then then things kind of came to a head.
But where I suffered my first a bout of depression
(17:36):
in my early thirties. I was working in social work
at the time, had quite a responsible job, and just
kind of really hit the wall. And I think it
was a combination of that sort of drugs and alcohol
on the weekend and then going trying to go straight
into a full week of work on the Monday, and
(17:59):
it all just kind of fell apart.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And what did that depression look like for you? I mean,
was it a depression of not being able to work,
not being able to get out of bed, or did
you find ways to keep pushing yourself? What did that
look like?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Okay, sort of how I remember feeling was just really
one weekend, just the feeling that I just couldn't keep
going on. The anxiety had started sort of percolating probably
three months before that, where I was worrying more and
(18:35):
more about work, and that anxiety actually started to turn
into paranoia, which I can now see as the impact
of drugs and alcohol. So, you know, I started to
get paranoid that I was being watched, that the you know,
the police were watching me, following me, those sorts of things,
(18:59):
and yeah, that was a combination of a whole lot
of factors working really hard but also partying hard at
the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Right, SUSI, I just start to bring you in. I
mean often we talk about the idea and people, you know,
you might hear about it in the media from time
to time that you know, the mental health impact or
you know what actually happens when we start to get
to that point that Anton's touched on, we're where people
start to struggle with their use. I mean, is this
common for people to experience these kinds of symptoms.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Oh yeah, it's really common, Kyle, And thanks Anton for
talking about this. It's really important and about talking about
how in the beginning it seems to take really good
care of us, and then it turns around somehow and
well it takes care of all that. Well, what I
heard you saying is you are anxious as a young person,
and then you know, got some respite from that when
(19:50):
you were using alcohol and other drugs, and then it built,
the anxiety built again. And it's totally common. And when
it gets to that point where people are making the
connection that the problems that are happening in their life
are to do with the use of alcohol or other drugs,
and then they're realizing that they might want to do
(20:11):
something about that, and then not knowing what to do.
That's where things can get really tricky and very very
painful at that point. And oftentimes people will and I
don't know if this is like this for you and Tom,
but you hear people talking about wanting to stop and
not being able to stop and using against their will.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Right, What was it like that for you and toon? What?
What was it? Let me ask you a different question,
What was it like for you once you started to
realize that actually there were some problems with how you
were using.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
What I thought it was about was just about balance, right,
So at that point I wasn't really seeing the fact
that that I was an addict and ejection was an issue.
It was more around, all right, let's not work so hard,
let's party less, let's get more balanced.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That was more well, burning the candle at both ends
was the problem?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let's just rain it all in
and then everything will be fine. That was initially how
I was thinking about issues.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
How did that plan go?
Speaker 4 (21:25):
It kind of worked on and off, so then you know,
that was sort of I was about thirty two thirty three.
Then you know, the partying would start again for a
little while and then stop. But it was when I
moved to Wellington and I was probably sort of late
thirties by then that things really began to spiral because
(21:50):
I found it much easier to get drugs in Wellington,
and very quickly I met other people who were using
So there were a lot of drugs in Wellington at
the time and it was much more easy to access.
And after about probably a year or two of living
(22:12):
in Wellington, meth landed and that's when things really changed
for me.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So that was part of the spiral for you, I
were starting to use meth.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
That was the really big spiral.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Looking back now, you know, what were the things that
you started to really recognize as your drug use being
out of control to the point where you were starting
to think, this is a problem. I need to do
something about this.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Okay. I actually really didn't think it was a problem
until I ended up in a cell overnight. Yeah, and
I was diiced, I had drugs on me and I
was in a police cell. And I think it was
(23:01):
at that point, right up until that point, because particularly
in the last year I was only using really into
like every couple of months. So I still thought it
was something that I could control. But sort of being
in the slammer, that's when I realized, actually, you know what,
I can't I can't touch the stuff anymore. This is
(23:21):
way bigger than me. And I know that sort of
other people have more dramatic stories of incarceration, but that
was a turning point for me. It's like, there's something
wrong with this picture. And yeah, at that point it
was really clear that okay, that that that's it. I'm done.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, very much a rude awakening. Yes, and I assume
the first time you'd had any kind of contact with
the police in that manner, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
it's quite terrifying being locked in a cell, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
It was more like it wasn't so much terrifying. I
just felt really wretched, right, Yeah. And I remember being
up in the cell it you know, Auckland Police station
in the basement sort of. You know, it was like
one o'clock on a Saturday afternoon and thinking like what
the fuck major, pardon me, what the hell am I
(24:13):
doing here? And you know, it was the it was
the necessary crisis that kind of jetted pushed me into recovery.
It was still quite a long process after that, But
that was.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I was going to say to you. I don't imagine
you walked out of there and went straight to an
AA meeting and lived heavily ever after. It's it's quite
a process to get to the point where you actually
turn up in those rooms or in front of a counselor,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah? And for me it was feeling like I was
going mad, And then the process was quite a long
process of talking to my doctor and eventually being referred
to the mental health unit. And that was a real
game changer.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Right in what way was it a game changer? And
what I mean? So you said it took quite a
long time. You were still using on and off until
you got to the point where actually you went to
your dot dur and got referred.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So I stopped using after the police cell, like probably
probably it took another three months to get referred to
the mentor health unit. But what I couldn't believe was
in that three months once I stopped using, how crazy
I felt?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And roughly how old were you when you stopped using?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
So that was forty five? Forty six. Okay, yeah, so
but I just felt absolutely, I felt like I was
losing my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That was really terrifying.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, because you talked about even noticing depression even in
your childhood and your teenage years. So this sense that
actually you could fall into depression or experience really strong anxiety.
It had always been there in full ground or the
background all the way through your adult life.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yes, it had always been there. And I think going
to mental health unit at the Taylor Centria and Auckland,
I just learned. I learned about depression and anxiety. Like
suddenly I had a language and a framework to understand it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
They hadn't thought about it or put those words to
it before.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
No, I'd never not really okay, not really. I mean
I'd known that I was kind of prone to depression,
but that was the first time where I actually had
the space to think about, Okay, what is it, how
does it function? What are all the things that put
me at risk? And what are the strategies I can
(26:39):
use to keep myself well?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Susie? Is it? It's not uncommon for people when they
stopped using to discover actually there's anxiety or other experiences
kind of being masked by the drug use, is it?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah, absolutely right. You know, the the you know how
they work so well in the beginning to take care
of the anxiety or the fear or the depression, and
when people put them down, you know, especially if they're
going for abstinence, that it's very very common for people
feel like you said, losing their minds. It's just all
(27:12):
the feelings are coming back. It's overwhelming. Who am I?
What do I do now? And reaching out for help
and learning about it, just like you said, is really
super helpful. And learning about like you said, about understanding
it and learning some strategies because unless we do that, well,
(27:34):
we know what the solution is. It's to pick up
the next one.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah. Yeah, to go back to what we thought was
working some relief.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Yeah yeah, because people remember what it was like at
the beginning, you know, and there's always that hope that oh, okay,
I'm feeling like this now. If I just take that,
then maybe I'll feel a bit like I did then,
And you can understand why that seems to make sense.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah. What was the most helpful thing about being getting
that counseling help talking with people at the tailor center?
What helped the most at that time the right drugs.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Okay, yeah, I think medication was really important, and that
was it took a while to get the right combination. Well, well,
actually when I got to the Taylor Center, they really
knew what they were doing in terms of the meds.
It was a bit of.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Trial error sometimes time.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
An error with the GP that didn't work, and we
got there and it's kind of like, okay, these people know.
So that was that was really important. And then it
was really you know, the techniques they gave me were
actually really simple things like you know, they're really big
on plan your day and structure it and stick to it,
(28:52):
like don't be, don't be, don't let your mood dictate
what you're going to do, plan your day the night
the night before, and stick to it and make sure
it's got a balance of things that you enjoy it.
And it's just really really simple things. Don't overwork, have
breaks with friends. So the techniques were really simple but
(29:16):
really profound.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I mean I often say to people that the problem
is that the ideas are actually really simple, they're just
really hard to do because actually, like you say, what
we have to do is to be able to not
do what we feel like and do what we've committed to,
and that's really challenging. Actually if what you're used to
doing is what you feel like.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Yeah, and also then you know once you do those things,
your feelings actually change. So yeah, it was sort of
very simple but really profound.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
So how did your feelings start to change?
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Well, the other thing that they really drilled home to
us was about our core beliefs about ourselves. And that
was really kind of a of me really thinking, Okay,
you know, what do I like about myself? What are
my talents, what do I think my perpose in the
world is all that sort of stuff is really important
(30:12):
and I have done a lot of work around that,
and when I'm feeling more fragile, that's kind of what
I come back to. So in a sense, I think
that the really the most important thing is to is
self love, is learning to love yourself and value yourself.
(30:34):
I mean, it sounds really cliche.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
But well it does, but it's also true. That's the
thing Anton. I'm you know, you introduced you. I introduced
you as a as a writer in research, and you've
mentioned being a social worker earlier in your life. What
does that meaning and purpose piece look like for you.
And I guess you know, as you moved into you know,
more stable life and sobriety, what did it enable you
(30:57):
to do with your life that was different.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
To really think about what kind of impact I want
to make in the world and what I want my
life to stand for. And you know, I came from this,
you know, sort of have two amazing parents who are
very committed to social justice, the arts. They were liberal thinkers,
(31:27):
so you know, that's kind of in my DNA. And
you know, initially it was social work, which is about
helping people. And then as I've kind of evolved in
my career, it's still about helping and contributing to social change,
but in a different way, so through research and also
(31:52):
in my creative life as a writer.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So what kind of and when you say in a
different way, how does it look different now?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
So, so at the moment, I've been doing lots of
writing about my all the things that we're talking about, Okay, Yeah,
so sort of kind of processing everything that's happened over
the course of my life and processing that through writing
(32:23):
and literature. So that's kind of what's been going on
for me at the moment. But I've also in the
course of my work and always being involved in multi
focused work, I really became more and more interested in
the impact of racism and how that plays out through systems,
but also how it plays out through through people. So
(32:50):
sort of I met a psychologist Carlojkamo introduced me to
this whole notion of implicit bias and unconscious bias, which
kind of really made sense to me in terms of
what I saw going on in different fields of work
(33:10):
that I was involved in. So what I saw happening
in classrooms with Maori children, what I see going on
with the police and their engagement with Maori. So you know,
the question becomes Okay, so we see this racism in
the data is an intentional racism, and I would have
(33:32):
to say most of the time in the workforces that
I've seen, it's not intentional. So a lot of this
stuff is going on below the level of people's conscious awareness,
and what we can do is make them aware of that.
And kind of once you see it in yourself, then
you're compelled to make changes. So those are the kind
(33:55):
of things that motivate me.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Now, yeah, I mean often the best writing and research
comes from our own experience, doesn't it. Do you feel
that that kind of unconscious bias or feel feeling that
other people were making something of your difference throughout your
life has had an impact on you and how you've
thought about yourself.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Yeah, definitely, And I mean that's what's motivated me to
kind of look at those issues. It all comes back
to my own personal experience and observations of the world,
but also realizing, like you know, when I'm kind of
looking at the MARU data, not only sort of reflecting
(34:36):
on my own experience of being different, but also my
own privilege, so as a sort of you know, the
prodigy of two teachers and you know, doing well at school.
I mean that was never an issue for me. My
parents expected me to achieve and I did achieve. And realizing, actually,
(34:59):
you know what, my experience of the world is so
different to many many Mary children who still live in
the poor parts of the country and don't have access
to the choice that I have. So it's kind of
been it's all been kind of playing out and operating
it in different ways in it at different levels.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Have you carried on doing any particular things in terms
of your own wellbeing or sobriety like in terms of
AAA groups, you know, ongoing counseling, what's been helpful for you.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Well, I came out of the I cycled into the
mental health unit twice, sort of discharged one year, back
there the next year, and the next time I went back,
I thought, I don't want to be coming back here
all the time.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
So I knew that I needed something more. And I
also realized that I had got to know probably half
a dozen people who were in twelve step programs, and
so as I left the tailor center for the last time,
I thought, Okay, let's kind of give this a go.
And it was really when I arrived at NA, it
(36:13):
was really the end of the road for me. I
knew that, you know, I'd done the mental health thing.
I knew that I needed something more to to navigate
the world, and the NA gave me this whole framework
for managing my life and a framework for flourishing.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Really, it's such a wonderful program, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
It is? It is? And I think there's so many simple,
simple parts to it. And I think more and more
I hear of twelve step kind of I hear the
twelve step, language and other spheres.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
So I think more and more of us are thinking
about spirituality, about serenity, about our connect acceptance, acceptance, about
life as service.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
I mean I hear these discussions going on in other places,
so I think it's kind of rappeling out.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, it's a great set of life skills.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Well that's it for this episode of The Nutters Club.
Thanks to our guest and Tom Blank, as well as
psychotherapist Carl MacDonald and addictions specialist Susie Morrison. If you
liked what you heard and think it might help someone
out there, then please share this episode on your own
channels or family and friends, and if you ever want
to be part of the show, give us a call
(37:45):
or text when we broadcast live on News Talk said
B eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand standard time. Check
out Newstalk SIDB, dot co dot MZ for local frequencies
or a link to the live stream. Burg Thanks to
New Zealand on Air for their ongoing support and making
the show.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Take care and always.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Remember that the world is a better place with you
in it. Like it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
For more from News Talk set B listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to the podcast version
of The Nasses Club, a show about mental health broadcast
weekly on News Talk SAIDB. Each week we meet people
who talk about their own experiences with mental health and
the hope that ED might help you with your own.
The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights on news
(00:43):
Talalk said B right across New Zealand and around the world.
This week, psychotherapist Carl MacDonald and addiction specialist Susie Morrison
spoke with and Tom Blank about his drug addiction and
recovery that led to his personal journey of identity and
overcoming challenges. Let us know what you think, as well
(01:04):
as what you learn from our chat on any of
our social media platforms. Just search for The Nasses Club
in z Let's get into this week's episode.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
I have a Maori mother from Najbuau and my father
was a Swiss migrant who came to Alteror in nineteen
fifty two and he was a photographer when he arrived,
(01:35):
but he and my mother then moved into teaching once
they were married. So I was born in the whole
younger in Rawani because they were the teachers at the
high school at Pungaru. So first five years spent in
Pangaroo and then moved down to Tamaki.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
What are your memories of Pungodu. It's a beautiful part
of the country.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
My memories of Pungaru are sort of warm. So we certainly,
you know, the locals sort of looked after us and
cared for us while our parents were working. We did
(02:27):
kind of stand out because of my father. So there
were only maybe three or four part here in the
in the in the settlement, the you know, the shop owners,
the priests and the nuns up at the convent, and
my dad. So it was really being immersed in a
(02:51):
in a Maori world with these you know, with a
handful of park here. But I think having having a
park here father in that environment sort of made us
a little bit different to the other kids. So lots
of warm memories, but also kind of aware of my difference,
(03:11):
my otherness, and also sort of alongside that was my sexuality.
And you know, from my earliest memory, I knew that
I was gay, I may not have been able to
call it that, but sort of intensely aware of being
(03:32):
different to other boys as well, So a kind of
a mixture of feeling part of but also kind of
this early awareness of being other.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Being different somehow. Yeah, you said us, you have brothers, sisters.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I have one sister, Marina, who's a year older than me.
So yeah, just two children. My mum was actually one
of thirteen. She's a good Yaji Proro stock. She was
a car from Rangichukia, which is a small village probably
about forty minutes away from Ruatoria. So big Farno steeped
(04:19):
in the Anglican church. We've got lots of Anglican ministers
in our Farno. And also, you know, being entrepreneur, we
had Abernato who encouraged encouraged us to be educated. So
very educated family and in a very large family. But
(04:43):
out of those thirteen children, there were only seven grandchildren.
So it was right on the cusp of Maori moving
away from rural areas into the city. And I think
once they moved to the city, we did see less children,
few children, and I think people had more life choices
(05:06):
as well. You know that. You know, my mum and
dad were thinking about other things like traveling back to Switzerland,
and they were making really different life choices to the
generations before.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned the sort of the urbanization.
Was that What were your parents particular reasons for moving
to Auckland You said it was where you came.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Yeah, Well, for mums, she left the village to go
to school, so she went down to Hastings to Saint
Joseph's Girls' School and then she went to university. And
that was true for some of her siblings. I mean
they were also sort of blue collar workers, but everyone
(05:49):
moved to the city to work and be educated. And
that was you know, within a very short space of time,
like ten twenty years, there was this really significant change
right across Ewie Maori of the urbanization and increasing opportunities
and education.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Where'd you end up going to high school? Then?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
So I was so we moved to beech Haveven on
Norshore and went to Berkdale College which is now known
as Birkenhead College. My experience there was I think that
Paula Morris in her novel Queen of Beauty, she has
(06:35):
the best descriptions of suburban Auckland. I feel of my time,
So how would I describe it? Pretty boring rightly? And
you know, again being aware of my sexuality in the
sixties and seventies, there was nothing sort of there was
(06:58):
nothing to tell me that what I was feeling was
normal and healthy. So, you know, moving on from what
I was talking about in Pangaru again, in this increasing
sense of otherness.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, well, in those days, there was no sense of
obvious communities that people could sort of join or become
part of if they didn't if they felt different, where
there was terms of their sexuality or even just culturally,
those things were quite hidden in those days.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
They yeah, I think so. Yeah, And for in terms
of sexuality and being a gay child, there was nothing.
I didn't know any gay teachers, there was nothing on TV.
There was mister Humphreys and are you being served? There
were no books for gay children to read, There was
(07:49):
no pride parade. So you really I felt that I
was really sort of trapped with this kind of internal struggle.
And I knew from a very very early age, from
my earliest memories, that it wasn't okay to talk to
other people about it. So, you know, I think, and
that's very common. I've talked to other men of my
(08:11):
generation and that was very common for us. But yeah,
that was my experience growing up.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What was the impact on you of feeling different at
a time where difference wasn't necessarily welcome in our culture
here and alt at all?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
No, And I think it was sort of It wasn't
just about my sexuality, but it was also about my
parents being very different. So Dad was I mean, he
wasn't just Parkier, he was really very very Swiss and
he never really completely assimilated with the culture here. And equally,
when he went back to Switzerland, he didn't really fit
(08:47):
in there either because he'd been away so long. So
he was really in this sort of strange in between space,
but very different to other New Zealanders. And my mum
was a poet and a writer, so she had this
whole creative thing going on, So they were both they're
(09:08):
both kind of eccentric and bohemian, and their friends were
also a similar vein. So they were friends with people
like Eric Schwimmer, who was the first anthropologist to write
about Maori culture. You know, mum was friends with other
(09:29):
Mary writers and artists. So so it was my upbringing
with my sister and my parents was completely different to
my friends at school. So the kind of the sense
of being different and other was happening on a whole
lot of levels. And tied up with that was my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So did you find it tricky then to make connections
and friends and have those those relationships at school, because
I mean, what you're saying is that your family at
home would have been very different than the families of
other kids.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Now, I wouldn't say that I found it difficult to
make friends. I think what was difficult was to allow
people into our home, right, So I think because I
was aware of how my parents were and probably a
(10:27):
little bit protective of them in terms of people coming
into our world and not understanding them or perhaps making
judgments about them, I think that was probably the more
difficult dimension of establishing friendships and relationships, was letting people
(10:51):
write in. And when I think about sort of primary
school and high school, the number of friends who did
actually come into our home was reasonably small, and I
was kind of selective about who could to that and
a sanctum, if you.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Will, Yeah, it was a protected space in a way. Yes,
you mentioned that there was there was a struggle within
you around difference, and how did that struggle start to
show up in your life as a young person or
as you moved into adulthood.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Okay, well, I mean definitely lots of anxiety as a teenager,
anxiety and depression, and then as and and then as
an adult as I found my tribe, and in terms
of sort of finding a gay community and network in
(11:45):
my time, that was done either through bars or sex venues.
So that kind of took me into a whole other
kind of hedonistic world. And you know, drugs was a
big part of that. And I think for those of us,
you know, men of my generation, men and women of
(12:07):
my general that the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties
were quite a hedonistic period and having sex was a
really important part of that sort of developing identity. And
I think when you know, we were talking about young
(12:29):
people just before about how they're much more able to
find their tribe. There's much more visibility at school.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's sort of more obvious now and you know where
those tribes are, I think exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And they also have the digital world where they can
connect and nowaday it was much more kind of underground
and like I said, a little bit more hedonistic than
what I see happening now.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So did that come with did that come with an
experience of shame for you, the undergroundness, or you know,
the feeling of being that different. I'm just sort of
wondering whether actually it was there were challenges even just
about feeling like you had to hide or did you
feel very out in terms of your life as an
adult man?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
No, I think sort of in that closed world, that's
where the hedonism comes from, because we were so used
to kind of hiding ourselves. So in the in the
safety of this gay world, there was kind of a hedonism,
a kind of a euphoria that that went with it.
(13:35):
But certainly, yeah, I think all of us have had
to process and come to terms with a lot of
shame and learn to really love that part of ourselves
but also love it in other people. And I think
in terms of sort of family life at the time,
(13:56):
we were really forced to go outside the family structure
to find our tribe, and we were loving each other
for the thing that we're felt shame about.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Did did your parents know that you were living this life?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
They? I think they. I mean, I came out when
I was like twenty six, twenty seven with my parents,
so you know, that was not easy for them. I
think they were aware of the hedonism, but it was
they kind of had a polite sort of They were
(14:35):
a little bit detached and away, right. They let me
live my life, and I think there are probably aspects
of it that they didn't approve of or were concerned about,
but they were also very aware of what they couldn't control,
and I think in that way they had quite.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
A healthy, quite good boundaries in a way.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Boundaries and distance from my life.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How did drugs start to enter your life at that time?
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Well, like I said, so the places that we met
were in bars and nightclubs and sex venues, so alcohol
was the kind of the key to the door, and
then obviously drugs became part of the mix as well.
(15:29):
The first drug I remember taking actually was prescription drugs
with my cousin when I was about sixteen. But then
when I found the kind of the gay world in
my mid twenties, you know, it was acid and then
ecstasy and and you know, I remember taking those things
for the first time and really feeling like, oh, this
(15:51):
is actually what I've been looking for, right, you know this,
and particularly with the first ecstasy I talk of just
feeling so connected to other people. That was at the
first Hero party. And also with it was that euphoria
(16:13):
which really lifted me right out of the darkness and
the shame that you know, I'd felt and lived with
since childhood. So for all those reasons, it was a
really intoxicating mix. And for a while it was really
great fun.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, So it was just a good thing for a
while as part of your life. Didn't cause any obvious problems.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I would say that probably when you know, if I'm
to be really honest, I think the problem started fairly
early on, so within you know, within twelve months of
sort of the habitual use of drugs and alcohol. You know,
I could see now looking back that things were starting
(17:00):
to fall apart at the seams and my work was suffering,
relationships were suffering. So I can see actually from quite
an early stage that the you know, the warning signs
were there.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And what age were these warning signs.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
I'd say that that started in my late twenties, yeah,
and then I went through periods where I wouldn't use,
and then then things kind of came to a head.
But where I suffered my first a bout of depression
(17:36):
in my early thirties. I was working in social work
at the time, had quite a responsible job, and just
kind of really hit the wall. And I think it
was a combination of that sort of drugs and alcohol
on the weekend and then going trying to go straight
into a full week of work on the Monday, and
(17:59):
it all just kind of fell apart.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And what did that depression look like for you? I mean,
was it a depression of not being able to work,
not being able to get out of bed, or did
you find ways to keep pushing yourself? What did that
look like?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Okay, sort of how I remember feeling was just really
one weekend, just the feeling that I just couldn't keep
going on. The anxiety had started sort of percolating probably
three months before that, where I was worrying more and
(18:35):
more about work, and that anxiety actually started to turn
into paranoia, which I can now see as the impact
of drugs and alcohol. So, you know, I started to
get paranoid that I was being watched, that the you know,
the police were watching me, following me, those sorts of things,
(18:59):
and yeah, that was a combination of a whole lot
of factors working really hard but also partying hard at
the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Right, SUSI, I just start to bring you in. I
mean often we talk about the idea and people, you know,
you might hear about it in the media from time
to time that you know, the mental health impact or
you know what actually happens when we start to get
to that point that Anton's touched on, we're where people
start to struggle with their use. I mean, is this
common for people to experience these kinds of symptoms.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Oh yeah, it's really common, Kyle, And thanks Anton for
talking about this. It's really important and about talking about
how in the beginning it seems to take really good
care of us, and then it turns around somehow and
well it takes care of all that. Well, what I
heard you saying is you are anxious as a young person,
and then you know, got some respite from that when
(19:50):
you were using alcohol and other drugs, and then it built,
the anxiety built again. And it's totally common. And when
it gets to that point where people are making the
connection that the problems that are happening in their life
are to do with the use of alcohol or other drugs,
and then they're realizing that they might want to do
(20:11):
something about that, and then not knowing what to do.
That's where things can get really tricky and very very
painful at that point. And oftentimes people will and I
don't know if this is like this for you and Tom,
but you hear people talking about wanting to stop and
not being able to stop and using against their will.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Right, What was it like that for you and toon? What?
What was it? Let me ask you a different question,
What was it like for you once you started to
realize that actually there were some problems with how you
were using.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
What I thought it was about was just about balance, right,
So at that point I wasn't really seeing the fact
that that I was an addict and ejection was an issue.
It was more around, all right, let's not work so hard,
let's party less, let's get more balanced.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That was more well, burning the candle at both ends
was the problem?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let's just rain it all in
and then everything will be fine. That was initially how
I was thinking about issues.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
How did that plan go?
Speaker 4 (21:25):
It kind of worked on and off, so then you know,
that was sort of I was about thirty two thirty three.
Then you know, the partying would start again for a
little while and then stop. But it was when I
moved to Wellington and I was probably sort of late
thirties by then that things really began to spiral because
(21:50):
I found it much easier to get drugs in Wellington,
and very quickly I met other people who were using
So there were a lot of drugs in Wellington at
the time and it was much more easy to access.
And after about probably a year or two of living
(22:12):
in Wellington, meth landed and that's when things really changed
for me.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So that was part of the spiral for you, I
were starting to use meth.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
That was the really big spiral.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Looking back now, you know, what were the things that
you started to really recognize as your drug use being
out of control to the point where you were starting
to think, this is a problem. I need to do
something about this.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Okay. I actually really didn't think it was a problem
until I ended up in a cell overnight. Yeah, and
I was diiced, I had drugs on me and I
was in a police cell. And I think it was
(23:01):
at that point, right up until that point, because particularly
in the last year I was only using really into
like every couple of months. So I still thought it
was something that I could control. But sort of being
in the slammer, that's when I realized, actually, you know what,
I can't I can't touch the stuff anymore. This is
(23:21):
way bigger than me. And I know that sort of
other people have more dramatic stories of incarceration, but that
was a turning point for me. It's like, there's something
wrong with this picture. And yeah, at that point it
was really clear that okay, that that that's it. I'm done.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, very much a rude awakening. Yes, and I assume
the first time you'd had any kind of contact with
the police in that manner, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
it's quite terrifying being locked in a cell, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
It was more like it wasn't so much terrifying. I
just felt really wretched, right, Yeah. And I remember being
up in the cell it you know, Auckland Police station
in the basement sort of. You know, it was like
one o'clock on a Saturday afternoon and thinking like what
the fuck major, pardon me, what the hell am I
(24:13):
doing here? And you know, it was the it was
the necessary crisis that kind of jetted pushed me into recovery.
It was still quite a long process after that, But
that was.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I was going to say to you. I don't imagine
you walked out of there and went straight to an
AA meeting and lived heavily ever after. It's it's quite
a process to get to the point where you actually
turn up in those rooms or in front of a counselor,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah? And for me it was feeling like I was
going mad, And then the process was quite a long
process of talking to my doctor and eventually being referred
to the mental health unit. And that was a real
game changer.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Right in what way was it a game changer? And
what I mean? So you said it took quite a
long time. You were still using on and off until
you got to the point where actually you went to
your dot dur and got referred.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So I stopped using after the police cell, like probably
probably it took another three months to get referred to
the mentor health unit. But what I couldn't believe was
in that three months once I stopped using, how crazy
I felt?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And roughly how old were you when you stopped using?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
So that was forty five? Forty six. Okay, yeah, so
but I just felt absolutely, I felt like I was
losing my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That was really terrifying.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, because you talked about even noticing depression even in
your childhood and your teenage years. So this sense that
actually you could fall into depression or experience really strong anxiety.
It had always been there in full ground or the
background all the way through your adult life.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yes, it had always been there. And I think going
to mental health unit at the Taylor Centria and Auckland,
I just learned. I learned about depression and anxiety. Like
suddenly I had a language and a framework to understand it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
They hadn't thought about it or put those words to
it before.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
No, I'd never not really okay, not really. I mean
I'd known that I was kind of prone to depression,
but that was the first time where I actually had
the space to think about, Okay, what is it, how
does it function? What are all the things that put
me at risk? And what are the strategies I can
(26:39):
use to keep myself well?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Susie? Is it? It's not uncommon for people when they
stopped using to discover actually there's anxiety or other experiences
kind of being masked by the drug use, is it?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah, absolutely right. You know, the the you know how
they work so well in the beginning to take care
of the anxiety or the fear or the depression, and
when people put them down, you know, especially if they're
going for abstinence, that it's very very common for people
feel like you said, losing their minds. It's just all
(27:12):
the feelings are coming back. It's overwhelming. Who am I?
What do I do now? And reaching out for help
and learning about it, just like you said, is really
super helpful. And learning about like you said, about understanding
it and learning some strategies because unless we do that, well,
(27:34):
we know what the solution is. It's to pick up
the next one.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah. Yeah, to go back to what we thought was
working some relief.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Yeah yeah, because people remember what it was like at
the beginning, you know, and there's always that hope that oh, okay,
I'm feeling like this now. If I just take that,
then maybe I'll feel a bit like I did then,
And you can understand why that seems to make sense.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah. What was the most helpful thing about being getting
that counseling help talking with people at the tailor center?
What helped the most at that time the right drugs.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Okay, yeah, I think medication was really important, and that
was it took a while to get the right combination. Well, well,
actually when I got to the Taylor Center, they really
knew what they were doing in terms of the meds.
It was a bit of.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Trial error sometimes time.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
An error with the GP that didn't work, and we
got there and it's kind of like, okay, these people know.
So that was that was really important. And then it
was really you know, the techniques they gave me were
actually really simple things like you know, they're really big
on plan your day and structure it and stick to it,
(28:52):
like don't be, don't be, don't let your mood dictate
what you're going to do, plan your day the night
the night before, and stick to it and make sure
it's got a balance of things that you enjoy it.
And it's just really really simple things. Don't overwork, have
breaks with friends. So the techniques were really simple but
(29:16):
really profound.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I mean I often say to people that the problem
is that the ideas are actually really simple, they're just
really hard to do because actually, like you say, what
we have to do is to be able to not
do what we feel like and do what we've committed to,
and that's really challenging. Actually if what you're used to
doing is what you feel like.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Yeah, and also then you know once you do those things,
your feelings actually change. So yeah, it was sort of
very simple but really profound.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
So how did your feelings start to change?
Speaker 4 (29:49):
Well, the other thing that they really drilled home to
us was about our core beliefs about ourselves. And that
was really kind of a of me really thinking, Okay,
you know, what do I like about myself? What are
my talents, what do I think my perpose in the
world is all that sort of stuff is really important
(30:12):
and I have done a lot of work around that,
and when I'm feeling more fragile, that's kind of what
I come back to. So in a sense, I think
that the really the most important thing is to is
self love, is learning to love yourself and value yourself.
(30:34):
I mean, it sounds really cliche.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
But well it does, but it's also true. That's the
thing Anton. I'm you know, you introduced you. I introduced
you as a as a writer in research, and you've
mentioned being a social worker earlier in your life. What
does that meaning and purpose piece look like for you.
And I guess you know, as you moved into you know,
more stable life and sobriety, what did it enable you
(30:57):
to do with your life that was different.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
To really think about what kind of impact I want
to make in the world and what I want my
life to stand for. And you know, I came from this,
you know, sort of have two amazing parents who are
very committed to social justice, the arts. They were liberal thinkers,
(31:27):
so you know, that's kind of in my DNA. And
you know, initially it was social work, which is about
helping people. And then as I've kind of evolved in
my career, it's still about helping and contributing to social change,
but in a different way, so through research and also
(31:52):
in my creative life as a writer.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So what kind of and when you say in a
different way, how does it look different now?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
So, so at the moment, I've been doing lots of
writing about my all the things that we're talking about, Okay, Yeah,
so sort of kind of processing everything that's happened over
the course of my life and processing that through writing
(32:23):
and literature. So that's kind of what's been going on
for me at the moment. But I've also in the
course of my work and always being involved in multi
focused work, I really became more and more interested in
the impact of racism and how that plays out through systems,
but also how it plays out through through people. So
(32:50):
sort of I met a psychologist Carlojkamo introduced me to
this whole notion of implicit bias and unconscious bias, which
kind of really made sense to me in terms of
what I saw going on in different fields of work
(33:10):
that I was involved in. So what I saw happening
in classrooms with Maori children, what I see going on
with the police and their engagement with Maori. So you know,
the question becomes Okay, so we see this racism in
the data is an intentional racism, and I would have
(33:32):
to say most of the time in the workforces that
I've seen, it's not intentional. So a lot of this
stuff is going on below the level of people's conscious awareness,
and what we can do is make them aware of that.
And kind of once you see it in yourself, then
you're compelled to make changes. So those are the kind
(33:55):
of things that motivate me.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Now, yeah, I mean often the best writing and research
comes from our own experience, doesn't it. Do you feel
that that kind of unconscious bias or feel feeling that
other people were making something of your difference throughout your
life has had an impact on you and how you've
thought about yourself.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Yeah, definitely, And I mean that's what's motivated me to
kind of look at those issues. It all comes back
to my own personal experience and observations of the world,
but also realizing, like you know, when I'm kind of
looking at the MARU data, not only sort of reflecting
(34:36):
on my own experience of being different, but also my
own privilege, so as a sort of you know, the
prodigy of two teachers and you know, doing well at school.
I mean that was never an issue for me. My
parents expected me to achieve and I did achieve. And realizing, actually,
(34:59):
you know what, my experience of the world is so
different to many many Mary children who still live in
the poor parts of the country and don't have access
to the choice that I have. So it's kind of
been it's all been kind of playing out and operating
it in different ways in it at different levels.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Have you carried on doing any particular things in terms
of your own wellbeing or sobriety like in terms of
AAA groups, you know, ongoing counseling, what's been helpful for you.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Well, I came out of the I cycled into the
mental health unit twice, sort of discharged one year, back
there the next year, and the next time I went back,
I thought, I don't want to be coming back here
all the time.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
So I knew that I needed something more. And I
also realized that I had got to know probably half
a dozen people who were in twelve step programs, and
so as I left the tailor center for the last time,
I thought, Okay, let's kind of give this a go.
And it was really when I arrived at NA, it
(36:13):
was really the end of the road for me. I
knew that, you know, I'd done the mental health thing.
I knew that I needed something more to to navigate
the world, and the NA gave me this whole framework
for managing my life and a framework for flourishing.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Really, it's such a wonderful program, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
It is? It is? And I think there's so many simple,
simple parts to it. And I think more and more
I hear of twelve step kind of I hear the
twelve step, language and other spheres.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
So I think more and more of us are thinking
about spirituality, about serenity, about our connect acceptance, acceptance, about
life as service.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
I mean I hear these discussions going on in other places,
so I think it's kind of rappeling out.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, it's a great set of life skills.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Well that's it for this episode of The Nutters Club.
Thanks to our guest and Tom Blank, as well as
psychotherapist Carl MacDonald and addictions specialist Susie Morrison. If you
liked what you heard and think it might help someone
out there, then please share this episode on your own
channels or family and friends, and if you ever want
to be part of the show, give us a call
(37:45):
or text when we broadcast live on News Talk said
B eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand standard time. Check
out Newstalk SIDB, dot co dot MZ for local frequencies
or a link to the live stream. Burg Thanks to
New Zealand on Air for their ongoing support and making
the show.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Take care and always.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Remember that the world is a better place with you
in it. Like it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
For more from News Talk set B listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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