May 23, 2024 • 47 mins
Topics covered include: The script as a spell to perform, sneaking around your parents house, career ending movie ideas, the inaugural podcast compliment break, work and savoring as the only true constants, riding the Spook-A-Rama under the influence at Coney Island, the G word, so many boring people, finding equilibrium after a film, Jane’s favorite now defunct Epcot ride that featured Bill Nye and Ellen Degeneres, listening to Elliott Smith on set of I Saw the TV Glow, being a Weird Little Creature, Jack's advice on how to always prioritize play, becoming a punk singer, and taking time to heal.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey, and welcome back to the A 24 podcast.
For today's episode, we interrupted the I Saw the TV
Glow press tour to record a veryspecial conversation with
writer, director Jane Shenbrun and star Bridget Lundy Payne.
We hope you enjoy it and make sure to catch I Saw the TV Glow
now in theaters nationwide. Hi, this is Jane Schoenbrunn.
(00:28):
And I'm Bridget Lindy Payne. And we are about to record the A
24 podcast. All right, Bridge, first
question. Yeah.
You going to vote? I'm voting.
You are. I've been trained to vote.
They want us to vote. But should I vote?
Should you? Do I want to vote?
You don't believe? Do you believe in America?
(00:49):
Yeah, America's very real. America's like Dunkin' Donuts.
Dunkin' Donuts I haven't been toin a while because I threw up
one of the sandwiches. Didn't taste as good on the on
the other way. It came out almost whole.
What kind of sandwich are you talking about?
It was a sausage Patty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With egg croissant on a croissant.
Oh. I fucking think so, yeah.
(01:10):
Yeah. When's the last time you threw
up? I hardly ever throw up.
I don't remember the last time Ithrew up.
It would have probably been after drinking a lot in my early
20s. I remember one time throwing up
after like like an early 20s birthday party that was at the
International bar on 1st Ave. inSaint Mark's and then I took the
(01:34):
commuter rail home to my parentshouse which I was living at and
I just puked my brains out in that basement toilet.
Puking in a basement is a special horror.
Do you miss living in a bedroom with your parents in the other
room? Do I miss living sleeping in a
bed with both my parents? I did that until 25.
(01:55):
Wait, do you miss sleeping in a crib?
I do miss a crib. I do miss sleeping in a crib.
Yeah. Honestly, yes.
I feel like this is a movie about how I miss sleeping in a
crib. Do I miss sleeping in my parents
home though? No, no I don't.
I used to leave my bedroom, sneak downstairs and play like
(02:18):
bright eye songs on the guitar in the basement and sometimes I
would go outside and smoke pot. Yeah, we smoke pot.
Don't know if you kids have heard about this stuff.
All right, let's we're going to transition now into the that
that was sort of like the, the, the ice breaking.
Yeah, that was just like. Hanging out of the podcast
that's just a like a in meteor res snippet of what it's like to
(02:39):
hang. Yay.
Sound effect of a crowd. Yay, you wanted to pitch fake
movies? I wanted to pitch real movies.
Real movies that we're going to make.
I wanted to talk about maybe like the etymology, an oral
history of our friendship. Yeah, that's a lot sweeter.
And maybe someone wants to make a movie about our friendship.
Well, let's let's get one fake movie at least out there.
(03:02):
What do you got for me? So it's 10 guys and they all
play basketball. One of them is a Christian, the
rest are frogs. And the Christian doesn't know
that the other ones are frogs. But he has this inkling that one
day he'd like to sit on a Lily pad.
OK, that's just off the top of my head.
(03:24):
Well. Do you want to hear about I this
this I have, I have, you know, like a whole portfolio of career
ending movie ideas. Obviously, of course, I think
I'd really like to make like a like an Apatow style comedy.
That's awesome to hear, actually.
Yeah, 'cause I feel like you should make a comedy.
(03:44):
Yeah, no, I would love to make acomedy.
I want to make AI want to make aStoner comedy, for reals.
And I feel like I'm always trying to think of a movie
concept worthy of Conor O'Malley.
I I've got a couple good ones, but but here's one.
Let me pull it out of the archive.
School shooting comedy but you know, like active shooter
drills, you know what I'm talking about yeah yeah, yeah,
(04:05):
yeah we didn't really have thesewhen I was in school we.
Had those stand under the. Ramp pre Columbine over here.
Yeah, but ours was like pre Parkland, so it wasn't.
Serious. Yeah, basically like our our
main character is the guy in thein the in the local PD who plans
the active shooter drills in school.
And the movie kind of opens withhim doing doing one and it's
this whole set piece. And you think it's a real school
(04:27):
shooting until you realize that it's just an active shooter
drill. And and then he goes back to his
chief's office with his partner who's in love with him.
And they're sitting there and the chief, you know, real, real
chief kind of character, kind ofshakes his head And he's like,
fellas, we got to talk about theactive shooter drills.
And they're like, what is it, Chief?
(04:47):
It was like a long pause. And the chief goes, they're not
fucking scary enough. And so then basically like he's
trying to to plan the the most hardcore possible active shooter
drill. Yeah.
That's going to be really hard to pitch.
I'm pitching it right now. I'd.
Make it you want to drop your e-mail.
(05:08):
Yeah, my e-mail is a BLP fan. It's 6969 lover Barton.
We were talking Barton Fink before.
Before. I've never seen Forrest Gump.
I've been meaning to watch Forrest Gump.
Have you ever seen it? Yeah.
Should I watch it? No.
No. I don't think you need to feel.
(05:30):
Like a movie like that I gotta watch.
I don't know. I don't feel that way about
movies. You don't think?
That way you. Gotta watch a movie.
But like, I pride myself, as I'msure you can tell on my cultural
I can. Tell and I feel like you not
knowing Forrest Gump is even cooler.
Do you think that's cool? Because.
When it comes out of your mouth,I've never seen Forrest Gump.
(05:51):
It's like, I am like placing that in the context of
everything you have seen. And I go, holy shit.
Let's do a compliment break. Bridge.
Do you feel like I'm being mean?No, no, no.
I. Didn't mean to say that you I.
Just wanted to express my love for you.
Oh. OK, I want to express my love
for you. Too Yeah no this has nothing to
do with with meanness I was justI I thought a compliment break
would be an exciting new spin onthe podcast we're.
(06:14):
Always trying to do an exciting spin on press 'cause this shit
is so weird. You guys have to understand.
Like it's so crazy. But we really, if you're
listening to this, we love you and we love each other.
If you've made it this far. If you're if you haven't closed
out the podcast to send an immediate e-mail to try to buy
the school shooter comedy, Yeah.Why am I getting a bounce back
(06:35):
from blpand6969@aol.com? Some guy has that e-mail, but
it's like for like bacon, lettuce, potato.
All right, compliment break. I just, I, I really admire you
(06:56):
because I didn't expect to meet Hollywood actors who were such
strange, truthful creatures. And I really haven't met that
many. But you're a real one and you
live your life with integrity and have deep care for the work
(07:23):
that you do, but also an innate and eternal sense of play.
And you are like a really good friend.
I think I've like really grown over the last year to admire
like a good friend. I try to be a good friend
because I think especially I have to come out.
I'm queer. Oh God, one family, biological
(07:46):
family isn't the primary, you know, sort of structure or
relationship that, that you've built in your life.
You really have to make a choiceto like supplement that with
something that's like this thingthat I, this, this, this term,
I'm, I'm working on chosen family and I just, I, you know,
I, I think that's a really important part of like keeping
your heart big and I learned a lot about that from you.
(08:09):
I love you so much, Jane. ILYSMU.
I mean, I don't know if I can express like, truly how much I
admire you. I am well.
You better because it's compliment break.
Yeah. And we only really have this
moment. Yeah.
Always to tell our friends how much we love them.
(08:29):
That's true. First of all, the world that you
live in is so expansive. It is beyond anything that
scientists have understood aboutthe universe.
And to be around you is to get to time travel and space travel
and play in so many different worlds and universes.
(08:50):
And you have a ability to be very responsible to your friends
in like going where they want togo and taking them to new
places, like a very gentle leadership.
And I feel like you are never judgmental of like where
people's universes haven't like traveled to yet.
(09:11):
And you can always like take people's hands and and show them
where they can go. And that's like a really, really
rare quality in a person. And I've definitely, my world
has been so expanded by you. And not to mention you're cool
as hell. Hell yeah.
Like really cool, but your coolness feels really personal
(09:32):
to you. Like, you know what you like
really deeply. So it's always exciting to hear
you talk about the way that you love people and media and
culture and even like food. I don't know, like I love
sharing meals with you. I love food, honestly, I, for a
while I was like, all there is in this world is, is work and
(09:56):
savoring. You know, we do our work and we
get to choose to a certain degree, you know, we get to
choose what work we do. And I mean work in an expansive
term like we, we can do work in all facets of our life.
But when you're not working, what are you savoring?
And for me, that's mostly chicken tikka masala.
(10:18):
Yummy. Yummy.
All right, so we met in 2021, I think.
So February, March on Zoom. You recommended Paper Girls to
me. I sent you my script.
What do we talk about? People have asked me this.
I don't remember. I think a lot of it was we
talked about we just like we're shooting books and movies at
(10:40):
each other. We could have been just going
like were. You excited to meet me?
Yeah, of course I was really excited.
I was so. Excited to meet you because I, I
mean, I'd already seen your movie and read your script, but
I also just, I really trusted Sam and they had talked so
highly of you and yeah, and I, Iremember it just being like a
(11:01):
really cathartic conversation 'cause we were both in a similar
place of being like. Gender.
Gender. What do we do?
Yeah. But we weren't.
We weren't worried. We were excited.
Gender, gender. It was still like COVID winter.
Yeah. And you were in.
Wisbon doing. Lisbon A.
(11:21):
Movie with Gabriel LeBron. Amelia's.
Amelia's children. Children and I was so excited to
meet you 'cause I was a big fan.Big fan why I'd seen you on
Instagram. Well, I was a big fan because
like I think I knew of you casually and then Sam was like
Bridges the coolest and then I like deep dove and I watched
like I did. I've done it a few Times Now
(11:43):
where I like Fast forward through the TV show and like
just watch the person I'm interested in watching scenes.
And, and then I watched Bill andTed's save the world movie or
whatever. And then I watched like you as
Keanu on some talk shows. And then I, like, dove into the,
like, YouTube compilation BLP vids and.
(12:07):
And, you know, it's like when you're, I think one of my
biggest fears as a filmmaker is to just cast someone boring, you
know, which is so easy to do. There's so many boring people
out there. And you were so much not boring.
Yeah. You were like such a bright
energy in everything personalityand like, really queer and cool.
(12:31):
And so I was like, Oh, yeah, I'mso excited to meet this person.
I don't think I was like, and I need to cast them in the movie
necessarily. But then after the call, I was
like, I need to cast them in themovie.
Because I also don't really remember what we talked about,
but I do remember that maybe we talked about a mutual desire to
be exploring what we were going through with the G word on
(12:55):
screen. Like I need to get to know the
person before I can get excited about them playing the
character. And I, I think I was immediately
kind of in love with you as a person.
Yeah, same. I the reason I ask like a man.
I'm curious, what did you see mein?
Because I kind of like, first ofall, forget that I've done
anything because a lot of it hasbeen like spaced out and it's
(13:17):
funny to be like an actor and stuff because you forget that
you've done it because it was two months long and you sort of
lend your, your body. Sometimes you're disassociating
because you're playing a woman and then and then you're living
your life and it's a year and you've never gotten a role.
Because sometimes like people really love boring people is
what I've found. It's because it's really easy
(13:38):
and safe and like. No.
And I, I think a lot of people are boring people.
And so they want to see boring people, yeah.
And like shout out boring people, like shout out people
who like are like maybe really comfortable and don't have to
like be freaky online or like I don't know what it is that makes
someone quote UN quote. Normal.
Normal. Narrimal.
But I have always felt like. Well, the crazy thing that I
(14:00):
realized recently is that and then I want to go back to how
you've always felt, but I. Don't know.
But the crazy thing that I've recently realized is that like
when there's a movie and it's like there's the guy and the
girl and they're straight and you know, they like kiss at in
the movie, even if it's like Transformers or whatever,
straight people are like, yeah, do it.
(14:20):
They like get really it. It gives it because they relate
to it. They're like, oh, the normal
beautiful people are kissing. That makes me excited.
When I see the weird people kiss, I get excited, but it's
crazy. I don't know.
Anyway, how are? What have you always felt like?
I've always felt, I guess, like normal.
You've always felt normal. I've.
Always felt kind of normal, which is funny.
(14:41):
Weird. That to you is normal because.
I've always like just done I've,I think I've like only really
recently realized how much I've been looking around to see what
people are doing and trying to do it and then being like, I
think I've got a pretty good handle on.
It you've been trying to be normal or?
Like trying to, Yeah. Like a lot of the work that I've
done, like, Subtle Pride, for instance, was like a band that
(15:03):
none of us played any instruments except MENA Shadow.
MENA, who performed songs that were completely improvised with
no instruments because we like, wanted to and thought we were a
real band. And like, Waif is a magazine
that like, wants to be in things, that is a proper fashion
magazine. And like, that's where the
absurdism comes from. It's like by trying to replicate
these like forms of normalcy andlike actually being so deeply
(15:25):
weird, you end up getting something even weirder.
I love that. Yeah.
I was thinking to go back to fake movie ideas.
I was like my friend Angel texted me last night and said we
needed Angel was watching Screamtoo.
And Angel was like, we need a they them serial killer.
And I was like, what would that look like?
And then I was like, you know, it would be be a movie called
Pronouns. It would be like an office, you
(15:49):
know, like an office setting and, and like every day in the
office, like somebody fucks up someone else's pronouns and
there's just like a a big pregnant pause after it happens
and then inevitably that person ends up dead the next.
Day. Wait, is it the same person
(16:11):
whose pronouns get fucked up every day?
No, it's different. It's different, yeah.
They all use they them or it's like.
I think it, I think there's justlike maybe like 3 or 4 trans
people in the office. And so the pronouns are getting
messed up and it's good, right? This is a good idea.
And I was like, the way to do this is like cast queer people
(16:31):
like you as the straight people in the office.
Yeah. I'd love to play a straight
person. And like have everyone be like
so straight, but like to like inthe way that you're talking
about. I think like straight almost as
drag. And then like the killer is just
like the worst cliche of like the killer is like maybe a
(16:51):
straight person doing an exaggerated portrayal of of like
what CIS people think an annoying trans person who's like
pissed at you getting their pronouns wrong.
Or I did a radio interview yesterday with a woman who who
started talking about how some people in her office get a
little too touchy about from them.
(17:13):
And I was like, so I think that was for the partial inspiration
for this. I said, I think you're really
siding there with like the oppressor, not the oppressed.
Because it's interesting whose whose perspective you enter
there, right? It's the person who's offended
at being called out on somethingversus the person who has to
live their life as a trans person in an office with you.
And does she? Like that?
She said, well, this is a podcast called the business.
(17:36):
So let's let's talk about business.
Incredible. And we talked about business.
So you and I did some business together.
We we made a movie. We made a movie.
What's up with that? So like so then we met in
person, you, me and Sammy. Me, Sam and Jane met and had a
picnic at Greenwood Cemetery andwe decided then and there we
(17:59):
were going to make the movie. Well, maybe you'd already
decided. I had already decided.
I had already decided, and Sam had already decided.
Yeah, we all knew. So we all, we all knew.
It was like for me, when you're a trans girl who's also a, a
lesbian, like you just think you're a sensitive straight boy
until you don't. I think all trans people, I
don't want to say all trans people.
(18:20):
I think a lot of trans people experience like a specific
thing, an early ish transition when they start to find trans
community, queer community. Like I, it was really nice
because like some folks were experiencing this, I think for
the first time on set, you know,and I could see them having this
experience. And I've just seen a lot of
people have this experience overthe year, which I which I had, I
think with you and Sammy, which is like first trans friends in
(18:44):
IRL, you know, like I emerged from the pandemic And but it
was, it was not just like, Oh myGod, we're all like in this sort
of fledglingly optimistic space of like exploring the
possibilities of, of queerness. It was also like, and we're
going to make this fucking movie, which Double double made
it like that. Summer was pretty blissful.
Yeah. Well, it felt like we were doing
(19:05):
magic, like we had a really, we we had this like the script that
was like a spell that we had to do everything in our power to
perform right and give it the full respect that it deserved.
Thank you. And I think we did a good job.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that a lot of people
work really hard and put this whole bussy in.
Yeah. Yeah.
We went to Coney Island. We.
(19:26):
Went to Coney Island. Spookerama, you want to talk?
About that, yeah. So we went to Coney Island, me,
Sam and Jane, and I think we didshrooms and we ate a bunch of
candy. We.
We did shrooms and sat in the Shark Tank at the aquarium.
For a while and everything was like awesome until we were
sitting by the beach and smokingweed.
Oh yeah. And then I don't remember if
(19:46):
Spookerama was before or after, maybe after.
But we rode Spookerama and Jane and Sam sat together in a in a
double seat because. Being the being.
The very old ride at Coney Island where you like.
Haunted House. Yeah.
You go through this, like, spooky dark hallway and it's
like, you know, like wood cutouts and like, statues of
werewolves and stuff, and they shoot air at you.
(20:08):
So it feels like you're being like.
Yeah. Right in your eye and Jane and
Sam had a great time you. Kind of saw you saw.
You saw your own death. Yeah, we saw the photos
afterwards and I'm fully like covering my face with a grimace
of hell. And we went and got like Russian
food that night and I was so high I couldn't even speak or
(20:29):
like I wasn't making any. I.
Saw like a new side of you. Then that I was like, oh, this
is exciting for the movie for me.
I thought that you guys were both like, well, friendship's
over. Oh.
My God, no. And so I went home that night
and like, freaked out and then woke up the next morning, tried
to like do yoga, to stretch, andthen before I knew it, I was
like seizuring on the ground. You.
Had a seizure. Yeah, I had a seizure, but in
(20:50):
the moment I never. Had a seizure.
Before I never had a seizure before, so in the moment I
thought I was possessed on Spookerama, he.
Thought some ghoul from Spookerama got inside you, yeah.
Oh my God, I didn't tell you this, but I went back with MENA
and Avcha and I rode Spookerama again and I took a photo and I
got, I took it for you and I can't believe I haven't given it
(21:10):
to you yet. I still have it in my house.
But I rode the ride so triumphantly, the woman who gave
me the photo laughed. Yeah, everyone, because,
because. It's me like smiling like
directly at the camera. You're like.
I can do it. I can face my Spookerama fear.
That's what this movie's about. Movie's about getting back on
Spookerama. Do you want to say anything
(21:31):
about the movie? Because some people might not
have seen it, Yeah. What do you what do you think we
should say about it? Well, did you like it?
I love it. I've seen it five times.
I've seen it more. But you have you're cutting and
pasting. Well, I remember showing it to
you. I mean that and and in
September. We wrapped in August.
Jane showed it to me in September on an iPad.
Big mistake. Do you think so?
I regret, I think 11 mistake that I made with this movie is
(21:54):
showing too many early versions of it to too many people because
it robbed me of something I think and I didn't quite
realize, which is like, it's really fun to show people the
movie when it's like done and the thing you're proud of.
I was just so proud of you. Yeah.
I was just like, I think you, you were just like were such a
(22:15):
emotional and creative collaborator on this from the
beginning. And so I was just like, first
cut, like bridge has to see. And you had done such intense
work. Yeah, no, I was really glad that
you showed it to me. I'll, I'll never forget that we
have these pictures of us beforeand after and like before, you
know, all perked up afterwards. I've like taken my shirt off.
(22:37):
We're slumped down on the couch.I think we might have like
smoked during it. We sat on the couch and, yeah,
at some point in the movie, you just, like, lifted your shirt
over your head and sat there like, shirtless, just kind of
clutching yourself for the second-half of the movie.
But I remember I, I thought you had kind of an intense
experience watching it. I did, yeah.
(22:58):
But I'm not like, I don't regretthat experience.
I'm really glad that I have those raw images from the first
watch. Yeah.
And then Sam showed it to me again, like, I don't know, six
months later. So I I got to see it twice
before I saw the before. It was like in the.
In the editing Bay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I remember that
time, yeah. How do you feel about like your
experience on set and making themovie?
(23:19):
Like what? What changed for you about
making things? I had a really positive
experience making it just because I got to be fully
involved in the character. Like, I lived in the attic of
this guy's house in Montclair, NJ I lived in like a tiny room.
I brought my record player. I was like cosplaying Maddie.
(23:40):
I ate ramen noodles a lot. And then I got to like go to set
and do these like poetic pieces with justice and, and everybody
who was there, like it was just such a crazy cool set to be on
because everybody was trans and silly.
And my first friend in New York or one of my first friends, Josh
Kundor Gibbs was the board op onthe movie randomly.
And Sam and Tilly, I mean, they we were like best friends.
(24:03):
So I got to be with them. Best friends, yeah.
Feel too close? But you guys fall in love on the
movie. Yeah, we fell in love on the
movie You. Fell in love on the movie, yeah.
And yeah, I just got to be like,super Moody.
Like, I would go to the railroadtrack every weekend and just,
like, sit there and listen to Elliott Smith and, like, feel
(24:23):
that's the best thing. Do you feel like emo kid Maddie
Elliott Smith? Like teen angst character.
How much was that like a costumeyou were putting on and how much
was that like a natural space for you to enter as bridge?
I would say as natural, as natural as my body and flesh.
(24:46):
So unnatural. So I wish I could get it off a
lot. So so an affront to God and
Christ. Yeah, I mean, what about you?
What is what did making the? What did it feel like and did it
feel like a natural process? What?
Was making the movie like and did it feel like a natural
process? Well, I'm like, I really like
(25:07):
chilling and when you make a movie your brain has to be going
so fast for so long and I can dothat.
Actually, my brain knows how to do that.
But afterwards it needed like a lot of slowing down and a lot of
chilling to get back to like a state that I think like my post
transition life where I like actually have tasted like
(25:30):
healthy equilibrium satisfied full existence.
Like, I think I'm just constantly deviating from that
equilibrium to try to do cool, ambitious things and then like,
finding my way back to it to recover.
And so I think making the movie was just like a huge jump off
the path that was planned. And it was so amazing.
(25:53):
And every day was just like, jampacked with just, like,
beautiful stuff. And yeah, it's just like, also
kind of painful to go through something so overwhelming.
Do you? Think you have to upset your
equilibrium that way to make great.
No. But a movie, yes.
Because like when you're making a movie on set as the filmmaker,
(26:13):
you're not just like being a creative kid in your room.
Like I could be a creative kid in my room and not upset my
equilibrium. But there's like a managerial
part of making a movie. And it's like kind of all that
it is once you get to set, whichis like, I have this giant
machine working for me to try torealize this thing.
(26:35):
And I need to like, make sure it's doing that in the right
way. And it's just way more like,
like the number of decisions that you're making on any given
day as the filmmaker. It's like way more decisions
than I want to be making, you know, like.
Decisions suck. I mean, I, you know, I like
decisions and they're important to realizing the movie because
(26:56):
like there's so much in every moment to decide and I and you
know, and I want to be actively a part of that, but.
Do a lot of those decisions happen?
Been on set. For sure.
Yeah. I mean, there are like a million
discrete decisions and so many of them happened before too.
But like it's also like there are so many people also working
(27:17):
and making decisions and everyone kind of wants like your
input on each decision. And sometimes you're someone's
like, you like these mittens andyou're like, yeah, I fucking
love those mittens. Go put those mittens on.
You know, sometimes it's like, it's more about, I think like
giving the sense of, of leadership or something.
But a lot of it is about having leadership.
(27:39):
And it's just intense, you know?And it's these long days, you
wake up at 7:00 AM and maybe youget like 20 minutes in your
weird Airbnb and and then you'rejust like, you're on for 1516
hours and it's performative. You know, directing is
incredibly performative, even while you're like the thing
(28:00):
you're performing is in service of something.
Hopefully that's very personal and, and earnest.
So I don't know, making the movie, it was also like
completely wonderful. I feel like I didn't see you
that much actually when we were making such different.
Experiences making it. You were falling in love.
I was falling in hate. Just kidding.
I was falling in love in my own way.
(28:21):
Yeah, you. I mean, you were, you were
directing a movie and I was acting in a movie.
People don't understand how different.
Realities. I was going to say how little
work acting is, but that's not true because it's like it's it's
emotional work and a lot of it comes afterwards.
Like, I think I've been like living with this anticipation
for the last two years of like, but even at the wrap party, I
was like, and people are going to see this movie.
(28:44):
Even today, I'm like you. Put your raw skin in there and
and people look at it and sometimes they poke it and
scratch it and it hurts. It hurts you.
But you just got to let it go 'cause the haters.
Get to you. I don't know.
I haven't like experienced a tonof haters.
Somebody said that I looked likea really nice young man.
That's not a hater, that's. Good.
(29:04):
Yeah, that's a nice thing. The best hater was one of my
favorite little set stories was Emma Portner smoking a cigarette
in in there. Emma Emma played all of the
monsters in the film. And there's like a scene where
they're playing like like a clown, evil clown monster.
And they were like full clown wig, clown makeup gesture
(29:27):
outfit, smoking a cigarette withSeppi off by the edge of the
high school where there's this like little Rd. that the people
in our the suburban town we wereshooting in can like cut through
to go from one St. to another. And so this car drives by, you
know, and there is the there is this tension of just like,
what's that weirdo queer movie happening, you know, in in our
town, in our normal town. And so the car slows down, the
(29:51):
window rolls down. It's just like a dude in a
trucker hat and he just looks right out the window at Emma
partner in the clown costume andgoes weirdo.
I loved that. I think that's a compliment, no?
I think that's a compliment, too.
It was such a the movie was sucha mountain.
(30:13):
I think for all of us, me, you and Sam, that like being in the
cemetery, abstractly talking about this thing that we were
going to get to do and then actually doing it Crazy.
Yeah. And now actually having done it
and we get to do something else.I know we're free.
Yeah, what do you want to do? I do kind of want to go to
(30:34):
Epcot. I want to go to Epcot, but they
don't have the ride that I love anymore.
What? Ride do you love?
There was this ride when I was akid that was like Ellen
DeGeneres and Bill Nye. The science guy had a ride about
dinosaurs. I know every new, every new
thing gets better. Basically, you like sat in a
theater in your ride in in your car, Spookorama style, and you
(31:00):
watch a short film. We're talking cinema and the
plot of the film is that like I think it was that Ellen?
This is pre talk show Ellen. This is sitcom era Ellen.
Ellen. I want to talk about Ellen.
I would. Cast Ellen.
We should. Talk about Ellen after this.
How many people are there where you just say Ellen and you know
who you're talking? About and I have some insider
(31:20):
information about her name that I'll tell you in a second.
Oh. Wow.
I mean, I want to hear it now, so.
I met a woman the other day at the wave table on the Lower East
Side named Arena. 7 year old Russian woman who told us that
Kathy Acker and Ellen DeGeneres had been collaborating on a play
in the 80s in New York. This is unconfirmed information
and that at the time Ellen was called Helen.
(31:43):
Huge. Helen DeGeneres, She dropped
the. HI mean if she ever decides to
transition late in life she could drop the E and and the
first Ellen be Len. Len DeGeneres, Len.
DeGeneres so Len DeGeneres, the plot is that that she slash they
(32:07):
are they have a nightmare about their like old high school
rival, I think was the plot and in the in the dream their their
rival, I think knows more about dinosaurs than them.
You know common that common anxiety?
Len's rival. Yeah, OK.
And then so they have this dreamwhere the the dream is that
they're on Jeopardy and they know that's right.
(32:30):
So Alex Trebek also features in this ride.
And then they kind of conjure Bill Nye the science guy to
teach that in their dream to teach them about dinosaurs.
And then Bill Nye is like, welcome on.
And then the ride starts moving and you leave the theater and
you go through this sort of, it's a small world Spookerama
(32:51):
style, like pre built thing where you see dinosaurs and you
also see like animatronic Ellen and Bill Nyes.
More than. One.
Yeah, I think so. I think so because they're like
joining you on this adventure tolook at all the different
dinosaurs and they're kind of pointing, you know, they're
like, look at that dinosaur. Is in this ride no longer exists
(33:12):
I. Don't think this ride exists but
I bet there's like a YouTube ride through of it that you
could but that's. A real bummer.
I mean, what did they do with the pieces?
Like where? Yeah, where the animatronic?
No, what? What am I going to do now that
the movie is is done? Well, this summer I really want
to heal because the press tour has been, I'm sure you could
tell, humble listeners at home. One hell of a ride.
(33:37):
Hell of one heck of a ride. I want to I want to think about
other stuff that doesn't have todo with me in my movie.
I want to read a lot. I want to cook dinner for my
friends. I want to see my loved ones.
I want to remember why I like being alive.
Can be interesting. Basically because I feel like I
like kind of gave the first six months of this year to, you
(33:57):
know, being like a public figureand and I'm glad I did it, but
I'm ready to not do that for a little while, just be a weird
little creature, go to some swimming holes, watch some
movies, and then I want to make more stuff.
I think my dream is to like figure out a way because making
a movie, as we said, is like really hard, takes a lot of
(34:19):
energy, but it's like, it feels still like it's like, oh, a good
day's work. I just got in a good day's work.
I'm doing really cool things. The part that doesn't feel that
way is the like needing to negotiate with a bunch of sis
people to like get the ability to make the movie and navigating
Hollywood and agencies and all this stuff is like that takes it
(34:43):
out of you because it's dysphoric.
And I think my dream is to like,figure out a way to like have
that stuff be minimized, have a little bit of a structure that
I'm working within and not reinventing the wheel each time
I do it. Because if I have that, I get to
just, I just wanna make a bunch of stuff and live a long time.
(35:03):
Maybe the nicest thing that anyone has ever said to me, or
it really meant a lot. My friend Ava, who was on set
with us shadowing me and just did like a lot of care work
while we were making the movie, pulled cards for me one morning,
read my tarot when we were making the film and came to set
and was like, Jane, I just want you to know I've been talking to
Dave about all these, you know, like school shooter movies that
(35:26):
I want to make and just like telling them all these different
ideas I had and, you know, like ambitions.
And they pulled my cards and they were like the cards said
that like you're going to get tomake and tell every story you
want to and you're going to havemore than enough time.
And the idea of having like morethan enough time really meant a
lot to me because I think there is this like scarcity mindset
(35:49):
you can get in as a trans personof, of like, Oh my God, like I
need to be living this all rightnow to the biggest fullest
potential. And I really, I think I, I've
been thinking just a lot about like how it would be cool to
have a long and healthy life andmake a lot of things that I'm
proud of in that long and healthy life and have a lot of
(36:10):
like love and different experience and, and grow old.
And I think that would be awesome.
How about you? I can't wait to be old you're.
Going to be good at being old. Yeah, I really want to make the
jalapeno popper. I'm going to write this movie
with Alex Mcvicker. He's my good friend and make
like a really extravagant musical.
(36:32):
And I want to finish October Crow, what's almost done.
October Crow is a film that I made with it stars Alex
Mcvicker, Peter Nolan Smith, who's an iconic poet and
professor of nothingness, who's 72, and my mom, Laura Lundy, she
plays La Bruja, the villain, andit's sort of a story about
(36:53):
friendship and New York and a BDSM brothel and yeah, it's it's
pretty weird you. Made it.
Yeah, I made it. Yeah.
We, we would like come to set every day.
I filmed it on my phone. We had two lav mics and we would
just improvised the scenes. And I said we just had two
requirements. It has to be long enough and we
have to win the palm door. And if we don't win the palm
(37:15):
door, we have to start a Film Festival called the Kansas Film
Festival and we'll award the Palmy Dorfman presented by Tommy
Dorfman. So I want to do that, but I also
just want to like make movies. I think I want to act in movies.
I feel like ready to do that. I want to act in some normal
movies. So if you have a script about
(37:35):
like a guy who you know, he's like an artist and I.
Actually had in New York. There's this book that I like
that I've always thought that I would love to direct an
adaptation of that you would star in as a normal guy.
Yeah. And this book, you ever read
this book, Stoner? No, no, You should pick it up.
Pick it up. See if it resonates.
Yeah. Yeah, I just want to do like a
kind of like Cassavetes, Peter Falk, sort of like Mumble movie,
(37:58):
you know, I want to do a friend movie and I really want to play
a detective and and yeah, I justwant to like get comfortable in
myself. I think.
I want to like let go of the anxiety of being looked at
because that's a stupid hindrance.
And like I love myself and I love the community that I have
like found myself so lucky to bea part of.
(38:19):
And I want us all to be like really comfortable and free,
like documenting and celebratingeach other and like putting our
work out any. Advice for people who you have
this preternatural ability to like, prioritize, play in big
ways as an adult. For instance, like making a
weird movie on your cell phone that no one asked you to do.
(38:42):
But I feel that this sense of like play and commitment to
seeing it through this is a veryrare thing.
Where does it come from and how can people cultivate it for
themselves? So it comes from the fact that I
was raised in an artistic family.
So my parents are both performers and, and theater
(39:02):
people and artists. So I was raised with like them
making work all the time and they had jobs that they did
during the day called day jobs and then at night they would go
to rehearsals and on weekends and such.
So there were there was just like a culture of making at
home. And I think like the way that
you can cultivate that for yourself is you have to let go
(39:26):
of all the structures of power and money that inhibit your own
artistic impulses because like alot of things, you don't need
money for. Most of the software that I use
to make stuff is free. I use Pages.
We use Pages to make Wave, whichis a free software on Mac.
I use iMovie to cut October Crowand it works very well.
(39:47):
And you can just like anytime I need a tool, like a tool that
you would use in Photoshop. You just like Google how to
blur, like blur the edges on a picture.
And there are like a zillion free websites for everything.
So I would just say like, in your free time, just start like
trying to make work that, as I said before, like work that
feels like normal. Like try to do things that feel
(40:08):
like the way that your heroes are making work.
And you might surprise yourself.It might be a natural impulse
for you. And if it's not, and if you find
that maybe your natural impulsesare more specifically in another
area, find other people and learn to trust them and
collaborate with each other because trust is like, the
number one thing. You think so?
I think so, yeah. Do you feel like you need other
(40:28):
people kind of egging you on to to get to get these things
going, or is it all sort of an internal need that gets
realized? It's internal, but it's also
like, well, most of my friendships are structured
around this work, so it's like, let's hang out.
Well, I guess if we're hanging out, we might as well be working
on the score. Totally.
You know, yeah, I think I remember.
I remember like when I started hanging out with you, you, you
(40:51):
and and like Mina Sammy, it was like art played.
It's that's a cool thing. Low stakes art.
I I struggle with it increasingly now that like I'm
doing art as a quote UN quote career.
It's really important I think because sometimes it's like you
get so like polluted by thinkingbig, which.
(41:14):
Is why it's important to try like always be trying new
mediums which shout out Jane became a punk singer.
Yeah, let's, let's talk about it.
That was so. That was so.
I mean, that was one of the craziest nights of my life,
honestly. I, you know, I've talked a bit
about my like screen trilogy, World's Fair.
I saw the TV glow and the third part of the screen trilogy is
(41:36):
this massive like universe that I, I, I created.
It's called public access after World and and I just wrote, no
one asked me to, but I wrote like 1600 pages of a screenplay
that was meant to be the first two seasons of a three season TV
show. Awesome and plotted out like
(41:59):
just like beat by beat, plotted out every element of it and this
whole mythology and universe andall these characters and the
ways they would change. And the third season I never
wrote, but I like I you know, I know it, I know it, it's it's
all it's all in there in the in the gullet.
And I was like, I'm so terrifiedof television and I basically
told my managers like, let's pitch this, but tell everyone
(42:21):
that I like, will only do it if I get like a green light to make
at least one full season of it out of the gate.
And, you know, and, and even even then I was like, we got to
like, hold on to the rights because like, I, I can't let
this thing loose. It's too important.
And so I, I pitched it and a bunch of the networks were like,
(42:43):
excuse a little young for us, but there is this, you know,
he's a little young. There is this person at HBO who
really loved it, but I think couldn't pick it up because at
the time there was like a strictedict that they could only pick
up new shows that had like, thatwere like succession, like about
like dysfunctional families. And I found out they were like
(43:03):
the last domino to fall in termsof the like, are you going to
pay me like 100 mil or whatever?It'll help me make this like,
like fantasy epic. And I found out like right as I
was on my way to the punk studiothat night, which I forget how
it came about. Maybe we had just talked about
wanting to write a song together, but.
And we didn't really write a song together.
(43:24):
Bridge rented us a practice space.
And yeah, I had never really like, like I used to play Bright
Eye songs in my basement like I said.
But I think I have a lot of shame about music and being
like, like singing is very dysphoric for me.
But bridge like took me into thestudio that night and 1st.
We just did a bunch of screaming, a bunch of yelling
and running around in this tiny soundproof room.
(43:46):
And then, yeah, we I banged on the drums while you just, like,
freestyled. We took turns banging on the
drums while the other freestyled.
It was really freeing because I think it was like a recommitment
to this idea that I really do think about, like, artistic
mediums, which is you have to risk and embrace embarrassment
if you're going to get anywhere truthful.
(44:08):
And, yeah, just like getting outside of myself.
Like, I can get outside of myself when I'm, like, alone in
my room writing, but getting outside myself with my body.
This was new for me and really, really meant a lot to me.
It was also the night you told me you were in love with Sammy.
And then I, I was, I think I forget if I got the HBO call
(44:29):
about them not wanting to do theshow before or after we played
the music. I think it might have been
after. And I was like, that just
happened. I need to go get a tattoo.
I had never gotten a tattoo before.
I was like, I need my first tattoo.
And there's like in public access afterworld, the sort of
like a repeated refrain, a tagline, if you will, is like,
(44:51):
make it real in the first sort of section of it, this character
or TV screen and just just repeating over and over again,
find the receiver, make it real,find the receiver, make it real.
Find the receiver, make it real.And then screams at the top of
her lungs. And I was like, bridge, I need
to get my first tattoo. It needs to say make it real.
And it's like a promise to myself to make this thing that
(45:14):
all the TV networks said, you know, I was skewed too young,
real in some form. And I had thought through like
what I would do. And I was like, I had sort of
like committed emotionally to myself that I was gonna, even
though I'd never written anything like that could be
construed as like a novel before.
I was like, all right, I'm goingto write this thing as like a
series of three novels. And I'm going to teach myself
(45:35):
how to do that. And I basically spent the next
year and a half doing that. And that night I was like, I
need to go get a tattoo. So I know that, like, it's on my
skin. Like, I'll like, actually see
this thing through. I won't let this thing die on
the vine without making it real.And and you were very sweet.
You went with me to the tattoo parlor and you, you wrote.
(45:55):
Make it real and I. Gave you lots of examples.
You did how it could. Be could have been a spooky
font. And then you, you held my hand
while it got tattooed on me. Thanks.
Now it's on your arm. Yeah, my first time and you made
it real. And I did write the novel.
I'm really quite proud of it, actually.
And I don't know, that was really special.
I, I, I think it was like, it's rare that you have like a night
(46:15):
where you're like, wow, this is like an era turning point or
something. That whole night was really was.
Storming. Yeah.
I think it's cool to like resolve yourself as maybe what
we were talking about. It's like cool to personally
resolve yourself towards a thingthat you've decided that you
need to do, you know, And I think that you and I both do
(46:39):
that. Maybe.
Yeah, we're like, we're going todo the weird, crazy thing that,
like, seems insane, Yeah. No other, no other way.
I've tried the other ways. I've auditioned for a lot of
stuff and only weirdos want me. Only weirdos want me.
Yeah. You think so?
Yeah. I'm blessed.
But you just seem normal to me. Everyone else seems weird.
(47:01):
You too. Thanks for listening.
The A 24 podcast is produced by us A 24.
Special thanks to our editor TomWyatt and Robot Repair, who
composed our theme.
Hey, and welcome back to the A 24 podcast.
For today's episode, we interrupted the I Saw the TV
Glow press tour to record a veryspecial conversation with
writer, director Jane Shenbrun and star Bridget Lundy Payne.
We hope you enjoy it and make sure to catch I Saw the TV Glow
now in theaters nationwide. Hi, this is Jane Schoenbrunn.
(00:28):
And I'm Bridget Lindy Payne. And we are about to record the A
24 podcast. All right, Bridge, first
question. Yeah.
You going to vote? I'm voting.
You are. I've been trained to vote.
They want us to vote. But should I vote?
Should you? Do I want to vote?
You don't believe? Do you believe in America?
(00:49):
Yeah, America's very real. America's like Dunkin' Donuts.
Dunkin' Donuts I haven't been toin a while because I threw up
one of the sandwiches. Didn't taste as good on the on
the other way. It came out almost whole.
What kind of sandwich are you talking about?
It was a sausage Patty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With egg croissant on a croissant.
Oh. I fucking think so, yeah.
(01:10):
Yeah. When's the last time you threw
up? I hardly ever throw up.
I don't remember the last time Ithrew up.
It would have probably been after drinking a lot in my early
20s. I remember one time throwing up
after like like an early 20s birthday party that was at the
International bar on 1st Ave. inSaint Mark's and then I took the
(01:34):
commuter rail home to my parentshouse which I was living at and
I just puked my brains out in that basement toilet.
Puking in a basement is a special horror.
Do you miss living in a bedroom with your parents in the other
room? Do I miss living sleeping in a
bed with both my parents? I did that until 25.
(01:55):
Wait, do you miss sleeping in a crib?
I do miss a crib. I do miss sleeping in a crib.
Yeah. Honestly, yes.
I feel like this is a movie about how I miss sleeping in a
crib. Do I miss sleeping in my parents
home though? No, no I don't.
I used to leave my bedroom, sneak downstairs and play like
(02:18):
bright eye songs on the guitar in the basement and sometimes I
would go outside and smoke pot. Yeah, we smoke pot.
Don't know if you kids have heard about this stuff.
All right, let's we're going to transition now into the that
that was sort of like the, the, the ice breaking.
Yeah, that was just like. Hanging out of the podcast
that's just a like a in meteor res snippet of what it's like to
(02:39):
hang. Yay.
Sound effect of a crowd. Yay, you wanted to pitch fake
movies? I wanted to pitch real movies.
Real movies that we're going to make.
I wanted to talk about maybe like the etymology, an oral
history of our friendship. Yeah, that's a lot sweeter.
And maybe someone wants to make a movie about our friendship.
Well, let's let's get one fake movie at least out there.
(03:02):
What do you got for me? So it's 10 guys and they all
play basketball. One of them is a Christian, the
rest are frogs. And the Christian doesn't know
that the other ones are frogs. But he has this inkling that one
day he'd like to sit on a Lily pad.
OK, that's just off the top of my head.
(03:24):
Well. Do you want to hear about I this
this I have, I have, you know, like a whole portfolio of career
ending movie ideas. Obviously, of course, I think
I'd really like to make like a like an Apatow style comedy.
That's awesome to hear, actually.
Yeah, 'cause I feel like you should make a comedy.
(03:44):
Yeah, no, I would love to make acomedy.
I want to make AI want to make aStoner comedy, for reals.
And I feel like I'm always trying to think of a movie
concept worthy of Conor O'Malley.
I I've got a couple good ones, but but here's one.
Let me pull it out of the archive.
School shooting comedy but you know, like active shooter
drills, you know what I'm talking about yeah yeah, yeah,
(04:05):
yeah we didn't really have thesewhen I was in school we.
Had those stand under the. Ramp pre Columbine over here.
Yeah, but ours was like pre Parkland, so it wasn't.
Serious. Yeah, basically like our our
main character is the guy in thein the in the local PD who plans
the active shooter drills in school.
And the movie kind of opens withhim doing doing one and it's
this whole set piece. And you think it's a real school
(04:27):
shooting until you realize that it's just an active shooter
drill. And and then he goes back to his
chief's office with his partner who's in love with him.
And they're sitting there and the chief, you know, real, real
chief kind of character, kind ofshakes his head And he's like,
fellas, we got to talk about theactive shooter drills.
And they're like, what is it, Chief?
(04:47):
It was like a long pause. And the chief goes, they're not
fucking scary enough. And so then basically like he's
trying to to plan the the most hardcore possible active shooter
drill. Yeah.
That's going to be really hard to pitch.
I'm pitching it right now. I'd.
Make it you want to drop your e-mail.
(05:08):
Yeah, my e-mail is a BLP fan. It's 6969 lover Barton.
We were talking Barton Fink before.
Before. I've never seen Forrest Gump.
I've been meaning to watch Forrest Gump.
Have you ever seen it? Yeah.
Should I watch it? No.
No. I don't think you need to feel.
(05:30):
Like a movie like that I gotta watch.
I don't know. I don't feel that way about
movies. You don't think?
That way you. Gotta watch a movie.
But like, I pride myself, as I'msure you can tell on my cultural
I can. Tell and I feel like you not
knowing Forrest Gump is even cooler.
Do you think that's cool? Because.
When it comes out of your mouth,I've never seen Forrest Gump.
(05:51):
It's like, I am like placing that in the context of
everything you have seen. And I go, holy shit.
Let's do a compliment break. Bridge.
Do you feel like I'm being mean?No, no, no.
I. Didn't mean to say that you I.
Just wanted to express my love for you.
Oh. OK, I want to express my love
for you. Too Yeah no this has nothing to
do with with meanness I was justI I thought a compliment break
would be an exciting new spin onthe podcast we're.
(06:14):
Always trying to do an exciting spin on press 'cause this shit
is so weird. You guys have to understand.
Like it's so crazy. But we really, if you're
listening to this, we love you and we love each other.
If you've made it this far. If you're if you haven't closed
out the podcast to send an immediate e-mail to try to buy
the school shooter comedy, Yeah.Why am I getting a bounce back
(06:35):
from blpand6969@aol.com? Some guy has that e-mail, but
it's like for like bacon, lettuce, potato.
All right, compliment break. I just, I, I really admire you
(06:56):
because I didn't expect to meet Hollywood actors who were such
strange, truthful creatures. And I really haven't met that
many. But you're a real one and you
live your life with integrity and have deep care for the work
(07:23):
that you do, but also an innate and eternal sense of play.
And you are like a really good friend.
I think I've like really grown over the last year to admire
like a good friend. I try to be a good friend
because I think especially I have to come out.
I'm queer. Oh God, one family, biological
(07:46):
family isn't the primary, you know, sort of structure or
relationship that, that you've built in your life.
You really have to make a choiceto like supplement that with
something that's like this thingthat I, this, this, this term,
I'm, I'm working on chosen family and I just, I, you know,
I, I think that's a really important part of like keeping
your heart big and I learned a lot about that from you.
(08:09):
I love you so much, Jane. ILYSMU.
I mean, I don't know if I can express like, truly how much I
admire you. I am well.
You better because it's compliment break.
Yeah. And we only really have this
moment. Yeah.
Always to tell our friends how much we love them.
(08:29):
That's true. First of all, the world that you
live in is so expansive. It is beyond anything that
scientists have understood aboutthe universe.
And to be around you is to get to time travel and space travel
and play in so many different worlds and universes.
(08:50):
And you have a ability to be very responsible to your friends
in like going where they want togo and taking them to new
places, like a very gentle leadership.
And I feel like you are never judgmental of like where
people's universes haven't like traveled to yet.
(09:11):
And you can always like take people's hands and and show them
where they can go. And that's like a really, really
rare quality in a person. And I've definitely, my world
has been so expanded by you. And not to mention you're cool
as hell. Hell yeah.
Like really cool, but your coolness feels really personal
(09:32):
to you. Like, you know what you like
really deeply. So it's always exciting to hear
you talk about the way that you love people and media and
culture and even like food. I don't know, like I love
sharing meals with you. I love food, honestly, I, for a
while I was like, all there is in this world is, is work and
(09:56):
savoring. You know, we do our work and we
get to choose to a certain degree, you know, we get to
choose what work we do. And I mean work in an expansive
term like we, we can do work in all facets of our life.
But when you're not working, what are you savoring?
And for me, that's mostly chicken tikka masala.
(10:18):
Yummy. Yummy.
All right, so we met in 2021, I think.
So February, March on Zoom. You recommended Paper Girls to
me. I sent you my script.
What do we talk about? People have asked me this.
I don't remember. I think a lot of it was we
talked about we just like we're shooting books and movies at
(10:40):
each other. We could have been just going
like were. You excited to meet me?
Yeah, of course I was really excited.
I was so. Excited to meet you because I, I
mean, I'd already seen your movie and read your script, but
I also just, I really trusted Sam and they had talked so
highly of you and yeah, and I, Iremember it just being like a
(11:01):
really cathartic conversation 'cause we were both in a similar
place of being like. Gender.
Gender. What do we do?
Yeah. But we weren't.
We weren't worried. We were excited.
Gender, gender. It was still like COVID winter.
Yeah. And you were in.
Wisbon doing. Lisbon A.
(11:21):
Movie with Gabriel LeBron. Amelia's.
Amelia's children. Children and I was so excited to
meet you 'cause I was a big fan.Big fan why I'd seen you on
Instagram. Well, I was a big fan because
like I think I knew of you casually and then Sam was like
Bridges the coolest and then I like deep dove and I watched
like I did. I've done it a few Times Now
(11:43):
where I like Fast forward through the TV show and like
just watch the person I'm interested in watching scenes.
And, and then I watched Bill andTed's save the world movie or
whatever. And then I watched like you as
Keanu on some talk shows. And then I, like, dove into the,
like, YouTube compilation BLP vids and.
(12:07):
And, you know, it's like when you're, I think one of my
biggest fears as a filmmaker is to just cast someone boring, you
know, which is so easy to do. There's so many boring people
out there. And you were so much not boring.
Yeah. You were like such a bright
energy in everything personalityand like, really queer and cool.
(12:31):
And so I was like, Oh, yeah, I'mso excited to meet this person.
I don't think I was like, and I need to cast them in the movie
necessarily. But then after the call, I was
like, I need to cast them in themovie.
Because I also don't really remember what we talked about,
but I do remember that maybe we talked about a mutual desire to
be exploring what we were going through with the G word on
(12:55):
screen. Like I need to get to know the
person before I can get excited about them playing the
character. And I, I think I was immediately
kind of in love with you as a person.
Yeah, same. I the reason I ask like a man.
I'm curious, what did you see mein?
Because I kind of like, first ofall, forget that I've done
anything because a lot of it hasbeen like spaced out and it's
(13:17):
funny to be like an actor and stuff because you forget that
you've done it because it was two months long and you sort of
lend your, your body. Sometimes you're disassociating
because you're playing a woman and then and then you're living
your life and it's a year and you've never gotten a role.
Because sometimes like people really love boring people is
what I've found. It's because it's really easy
(13:38):
and safe and like. No.
And I, I think a lot of people are boring people.
And so they want to see boring people, yeah.
And like shout out boring people, like shout out people
who like are like maybe really comfortable and don't have to
like be freaky online or like I don't know what it is that makes
someone quote UN quote. Normal.
Normal. Narrimal.
But I have always felt like. Well, the crazy thing that I
(14:00):
realized recently is that and then I want to go back to how
you've always felt, but I. Don't know.
But the crazy thing that I've recently realized is that like
when there's a movie and it's like there's the guy and the
girl and they're straight and you know, they like kiss at in
the movie, even if it's like Transformers or whatever,
straight people are like, yeah, do it.
(14:20):
They like get really it. It gives it because they relate
to it. They're like, oh, the normal
beautiful people are kissing. That makes me excited.
When I see the weird people kiss, I get excited, but it's
crazy. I don't know.
Anyway, how are? What have you always felt like?
I've always felt, I guess, like normal.
You've always felt normal. I've.
Always felt kind of normal, which is funny.
(14:41):
Weird. That to you is normal because.
I've always like just done I've,I think I've like only really
recently realized how much I've been looking around to see what
people are doing and trying to do it and then being like, I
think I've got a pretty good handle on.
It you've been trying to be normal or?
Like trying to, Yeah. Like a lot of the work that I've
done, like, Subtle Pride, for instance, was like a band that
(15:03):
none of us played any instruments except MENA Shadow.
MENA, who performed songs that were completely improvised with
no instruments because we like, wanted to and thought we were a
real band. And like, Waif is a magazine
that like, wants to be in things, that is a proper fashion
magazine. And like, that's where the
absurdism comes from. It's like by trying to replicate
these like forms of normalcy andlike actually being so deeply
(15:25):
weird, you end up getting something even weirder.
I love that. Yeah.
I was thinking to go back to fake movie ideas.
I was like my friend Angel texted me last night and said we
needed Angel was watching Screamtoo.
And Angel was like, we need a they them serial killer.
And I was like, what would that look like?
And then I was like, you know, it would be be a movie called
Pronouns. It would be like an office, you
(15:49):
know, like an office setting and, and like every day in the
office, like somebody fucks up someone else's pronouns and
there's just like a a big pregnant pause after it happens
and then inevitably that person ends up dead the next.
Day. Wait, is it the same person
(16:11):
whose pronouns get fucked up every day?
No, it's different. It's different, yeah.
They all use they them or it's like.
I think it, I think there's justlike maybe like 3 or 4 trans
people in the office. And so the pronouns are getting
messed up and it's good, right? This is a good idea.
And I was like, the way to do this is like cast queer people
(16:31):
like you as the straight people in the office.
Yeah. I'd love to play a straight
person. And like have everyone be like
so straight, but like to like inthe way that you're talking
about. I think like straight almost as
drag. And then like the killer is just
like the worst cliche of like the killer is like maybe a
(16:51):
straight person doing an exaggerated portrayal of of like
what CIS people think an annoying trans person who's like
pissed at you getting their pronouns wrong.
Or I did a radio interview yesterday with a woman who who
started talking about how some people in her office get a
little too touchy about from them.
(17:13):
And I was like, so I think that was for the partial inspiration
for this. I said, I think you're really
siding there with like the oppressor, not the oppressed.
Because it's interesting whose whose perspective you enter
there, right? It's the person who's offended
at being called out on somethingversus the person who has to
live their life as a trans person in an office with you.
And does she? Like that?
She said, well, this is a podcast called the business.
(17:36):
So let's let's talk about business.
Incredible. And we talked about business.
So you and I did some business together.
We we made a movie. We made a movie.
What's up with that? So like so then we met in
person, you, me and Sammy. Me, Sam and Jane met and had a
picnic at Greenwood Cemetery andwe decided then and there we
(17:59):
were going to make the movie. Well, maybe you'd already
decided. I had already decided.
I had already decided, and Sam had already decided.
Yeah, we all knew. So we all, we all knew.
It was like for me, when you're a trans girl who's also a, a
lesbian, like you just think you're a sensitive straight boy
until you don't. I think all trans people, I
don't want to say all trans people.
(18:20):
I think a lot of trans people experience like a specific
thing, an early ish transition when they start to find trans
community, queer community. Like I, it was really nice
because like some folks were experiencing this, I think for
the first time on set, you know,and I could see them having this
experience. And I've just seen a lot of
people have this experience overthe year, which I which I had, I
think with you and Sammy, which is like first trans friends in
(18:44):
IRL, you know, like I emerged from the pandemic And but it
was, it was not just like, Oh myGod, we're all like in this sort
of fledglingly optimistic space of like exploring the
possibilities of, of queerness. It was also like, and we're
going to make this fucking movie, which Double double made
it like that. Summer was pretty blissful.
Yeah. Well, it felt like we were doing
(19:05):
magic, like we had a really, we we had this like the script that
was like a spell that we had to do everything in our power to
perform right and give it the full respect that it deserved.
Thank you. And I think we did a good job.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that a lot of people
work really hard and put this whole bussy in.
Yeah. Yeah.
We went to Coney Island. We.
(19:26):
Went to Coney Island. Spookerama, you want to talk?
About that, yeah. So we went to Coney Island, me,
Sam and Jane, and I think we didshrooms and we ate a bunch of
candy. We.
We did shrooms and sat in the Shark Tank at the aquarium.
For a while and everything was like awesome until we were
sitting by the beach and smokingweed.
Oh yeah. And then I don't remember if
(19:46):
Spookerama was before or after, maybe after.
But we rode Spookerama and Jane and Sam sat together in a in a
double seat because. Being the being.
The very old ride at Coney Island where you like.
Haunted House. Yeah.
You go through this, like, spooky dark hallway and it's
like, you know, like wood cutouts and like, statues of
werewolves and stuff, and they shoot air at you.
(20:08):
So it feels like you're being like.
Yeah. Right in your eye and Jane and
Sam had a great time you. Kind of saw you saw.
You saw your own death. Yeah, we saw the photos
afterwards and I'm fully like covering my face with a grimace
of hell. And we went and got like Russian
food that night and I was so high I couldn't even speak or
(20:29):
like I wasn't making any. I.
Saw like a new side of you. Then that I was like, oh, this
is exciting for the movie for me.
I thought that you guys were both like, well, friendship's
over. Oh.
My God, no. And so I went home that night
and like, freaked out and then woke up the next morning, tried
to like do yoga, to stretch, andthen before I knew it, I was
like seizuring on the ground. You.
Had a seizure. Yeah, I had a seizure, but in
(20:50):
the moment I never. Had a seizure.
Before I never had a seizure before, so in the moment I
thought I was possessed on Spookerama, he.
Thought some ghoul from Spookerama got inside you, yeah.
Oh my God, I didn't tell you this, but I went back with MENA
and Avcha and I rode Spookerama again and I took a photo and I
got, I took it for you and I can't believe I haven't given it
(21:10):
to you yet. I still have it in my house.
But I rode the ride so triumphantly, the woman who gave
me the photo laughed. Yeah, everyone, because,
because. It's me like smiling like
directly at the camera. You're like.
I can do it. I can face my Spookerama fear.
That's what this movie's about. Movie's about getting back on
Spookerama. Do you want to say anything
(21:31):
about the movie? Because some people might not
have seen it, Yeah. What do you what do you think we
should say about it? Well, did you like it?
I love it. I've seen it five times.
I've seen it more. But you have you're cutting and
pasting. Well, I remember showing it to
you. I mean that and and in
September. We wrapped in August.
Jane showed it to me in September on an iPad.
Big mistake. Do you think so?
I regret, I think 11 mistake that I made with this movie is
(21:54):
showing too many early versions of it to too many people because
it robbed me of something I think and I didn't quite
realize, which is like, it's really fun to show people the
movie when it's like done and the thing you're proud of.
I was just so proud of you. Yeah.
I was just like, I think you, you were just like were such a
(22:15):
emotional and creative collaborator on this from the
beginning. And so I was just like, first
cut, like bridge has to see. And you had done such intense
work. Yeah, no, I was really glad that
you showed it to me. I'll, I'll never forget that we
have these pictures of us beforeand after and like before, you
know, all perked up afterwards. I've like taken my shirt off.
(22:37):
We're slumped down on the couch.I think we might have like
smoked during it. We sat on the couch and, yeah,
at some point in the movie, you just, like, lifted your shirt
over your head and sat there like, shirtless, just kind of
clutching yourself for the second-half of the movie.
But I remember I, I thought you had kind of an intense
experience watching it. I did, yeah.
(22:58):
But I'm not like, I don't regretthat experience.
I'm really glad that I have those raw images from the first
watch. Yeah.
And then Sam showed it to me again, like, I don't know, six
months later. So I I got to see it twice
before I saw the before. It was like in the.
In the editing Bay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I remember that
time, yeah. How do you feel about like your
experience on set and making themovie?
(23:19):
Like what? What changed for you about
making things? I had a really positive
experience making it just because I got to be fully
involved in the character. Like, I lived in the attic of
this guy's house in Montclair, NJ I lived in like a tiny room.
I brought my record player. I was like cosplaying Maddie.
(23:40):
I ate ramen noodles a lot. And then I got to like go to set
and do these like poetic pieces with justice and, and everybody
who was there, like it was just such a crazy cool set to be on
because everybody was trans and silly.
And my first friend in New York or one of my first friends, Josh
Kundor Gibbs was the board op onthe movie randomly.
And Sam and Tilly, I mean, they we were like best friends.
(24:03):
So I got to be with them. Best friends, yeah.
Feel too close? But you guys fall in love on the
movie. Yeah, we fell in love on the
movie You. Fell in love on the movie, yeah.
And yeah, I just got to be like,super Moody.
Like, I would go to the railroadtrack every weekend and just,
like, sit there and listen to Elliott Smith and, like, feel
(24:23):
that's the best thing. Do you feel like emo kid Maddie
Elliott Smith? Like teen angst character.
How much was that like a costumeyou were putting on and how much
was that like a natural space for you to enter as bridge?
I would say as natural, as natural as my body and flesh.
(24:46):
So unnatural. So I wish I could get it off a
lot. So so an affront to God and
Christ. Yeah, I mean, what about you?
What is what did making the? What did it feel like and did it
feel like a natural process? What?
Was making the movie like and did it feel like a natural
process? Well, I'm like, I really like
(25:07):
chilling and when you make a movie your brain has to be going
so fast for so long and I can dothat.
Actually, my brain knows how to do that.
But afterwards it needed like a lot of slowing down and a lot of
chilling to get back to like a state that I think like my post
transition life where I like actually have tasted like
(25:30):
healthy equilibrium satisfied full existence.
Like, I think I'm just constantly deviating from that
equilibrium to try to do cool, ambitious things and then like,
finding my way back to it to recover.
And so I think making the movie was just like a huge jump off
the path that was planned. And it was so amazing.
(25:53):
And every day was just like, jampacked with just, like,
beautiful stuff. And yeah, it's just like, also
kind of painful to go through something so overwhelming.
Do you? Think you have to upset your
equilibrium that way to make great.
No. But a movie, yes.
Because like when you're making a movie on set as the filmmaker,
(26:13):
you're not just like being a creative kid in your room.
Like I could be a creative kid in my room and not upset my
equilibrium. But there's like a managerial
part of making a movie. And it's like kind of all that
it is once you get to set, whichis like, I have this giant
machine working for me to try torealize this thing.
(26:35):
And I need to like, make sure it's doing that in the right
way. And it's just way more like,
like the number of decisions that you're making on any given
day as the filmmaker. It's like way more decisions
than I want to be making, you know, like.
Decisions suck. I mean, I, you know, I like
decisions and they're important to realizing the movie because
(26:56):
like there's so much in every moment to decide and I and you
know, and I want to be actively a part of that, but.
Do a lot of those decisions happen?
Been on set. For sure.
Yeah. I mean, there are like a million
discrete decisions and so many of them happened before too.
But like it's also like there are so many people also working
(27:17):
and making decisions and everyone kind of wants like your
input on each decision. And sometimes you're someone's
like, you like these mittens andyou're like, yeah, I fucking
love those mittens. Go put those mittens on.
You know, sometimes it's like, it's more about, I think like
giving the sense of, of leadership or something.
But a lot of it is about having leadership.
(27:39):
And it's just intense, you know?And it's these long days, you
wake up at 7:00 AM and maybe youget like 20 minutes in your
weird Airbnb and and then you'rejust like, you're on for 1516
hours and it's performative. You know, directing is
incredibly performative, even while you're like the thing
(28:00):
you're performing is in service of something.
Hopefully that's very personal and, and earnest.
So I don't know, making the movie, it was also like
completely wonderful. I feel like I didn't see you
that much actually when we were making such different.
Experiences making it. You were falling in love.
I was falling in hate. Just kidding.
I was falling in love in my own way.
(28:21):
Yeah, you. I mean, you were, you were
directing a movie and I was acting in a movie.
People don't understand how different.
Realities. I was going to say how little
work acting is, but that's not true because it's like it's it's
emotional work and a lot of it comes afterwards.
Like, I think I've been like living with this anticipation
for the last two years of like, but even at the wrap party, I
was like, and people are going to see this movie.
(28:44):
Even today, I'm like you. Put your raw skin in there and
and people look at it and sometimes they poke it and
scratch it and it hurts. It hurts you.
But you just got to let it go 'cause the haters.
Get to you. I don't know.
I haven't like experienced a tonof haters.
Somebody said that I looked likea really nice young man.
That's not a hater, that's. Good.
(29:04):
Yeah, that's a nice thing. The best hater was one of my
favorite little set stories was Emma Portner smoking a cigarette
in in there. Emma Emma played all of the
monsters in the film. And there's like a scene where
they're playing like like a clown, evil clown monster.
And they were like full clown wig, clown makeup gesture
(29:27):
outfit, smoking a cigarette withSeppi off by the edge of the
high school where there's this like little Rd. that the people
in our the suburban town we wereshooting in can like cut through
to go from one St. to another. And so this car drives by, you
know, and there is the there is this tension of just like,
what's that weirdo queer movie happening, you know, in in our
town, in our normal town. And so the car slows down, the
(29:51):
window rolls down. It's just like a dude in a
trucker hat and he just looks right out the window at Emma
partner in the clown costume andgoes weirdo.
I loved that. I think that's a compliment, no?
I think that's a compliment, too.
It was such a the movie was sucha mountain.
(30:13):
I think for all of us, me, you and Sam, that like being in the
cemetery, abstractly talking about this thing that we were
going to get to do and then actually doing it Crazy.
Yeah. And now actually having done it
and we get to do something else.I know we're free.
Yeah, what do you want to do? I do kind of want to go to
(30:34):
Epcot. I want to go to Epcot, but they
don't have the ride that I love anymore.
What? Ride do you love?
There was this ride when I was akid that was like Ellen
DeGeneres and Bill Nye. The science guy had a ride about
dinosaurs. I know every new, every new
thing gets better. Basically, you like sat in a
theater in your ride in in your car, Spookorama style, and you
(31:00):
watch a short film. We're talking cinema and the
plot of the film is that like I think it was that Ellen?
This is pre talk show Ellen. This is sitcom era Ellen.
Ellen. I want to talk about Ellen.
I would. Cast Ellen.
We should. Talk about Ellen after this.
How many people are there where you just say Ellen and you know
who you're talking? About and I have some insider
(31:20):
information about her name that I'll tell you in a second.
Oh. Wow.
I mean, I want to hear it now, so.
I met a woman the other day at the wave table on the Lower East
Side named Arena. 7 year old Russian woman who told us that
Kathy Acker and Ellen DeGeneres had been collaborating on a play
in the 80s in New York. This is unconfirmed information
and that at the time Ellen was called Helen.
(31:43):
Huge. Helen DeGeneres, She dropped
the. HI mean if she ever decides to
transition late in life she could drop the E and and the
first Ellen be Len. Len DeGeneres, Len.
DeGeneres so Len DeGeneres, the plot is that that she slash they
(32:07):
are they have a nightmare about their like old high school
rival, I think was the plot and in the in the dream their their
rival, I think knows more about dinosaurs than them.
You know common that common anxiety?
Len's rival. Yeah, OK.
And then so they have this dreamwhere the the dream is that
they're on Jeopardy and they know that's right.
(32:30):
So Alex Trebek also features in this ride.
And then they kind of conjure Bill Nye the science guy to
teach that in their dream to teach them about dinosaurs.
And then Bill Nye is like, welcome on.
And then the ride starts moving and you leave the theater and
you go through this sort of, it's a small world Spookerama
(32:51):
style, like pre built thing where you see dinosaurs and you
also see like animatronic Ellen and Bill Nyes.
More than. One.
Yeah, I think so. I think so because they're like
joining you on this adventure tolook at all the different
dinosaurs and they're kind of pointing, you know, they're
like, look at that dinosaur. Is in this ride no longer exists
(33:12):
I. Don't think this ride exists but
I bet there's like a YouTube ride through of it that you
could but that's. A real bummer.
I mean, what did they do with the pieces?
Like where? Yeah, where the animatronic?
No, what? What am I going to do now that
the movie is is done? Well, this summer I really want
to heal because the press tour has been, I'm sure you could
tell, humble listeners at home. One hell of a ride.
(33:37):
Hell of one heck of a ride. I want to I want to think about
other stuff that doesn't have todo with me in my movie.
I want to read a lot. I want to cook dinner for my
friends. I want to see my loved ones.
I want to remember why I like being alive.
Can be interesting. Basically because I feel like I
like kind of gave the first six months of this year to, you
(33:57):
know, being like a public figureand and I'm glad I did it, but
I'm ready to not do that for a little while, just be a weird
little creature, go to some swimming holes, watch some
movies, and then I want to make more stuff.
I think my dream is to like figure out a way because making
a movie, as we said, is like really hard, takes a lot of
(34:19):
energy, but it's like, it feels still like it's like, oh, a good
day's work. I just got in a good day's work.
I'm doing really cool things. The part that doesn't feel that
way is the like needing to negotiate with a bunch of sis
people to like get the ability to make the movie and navigating
Hollywood and agencies and all this stuff is like that takes it
(34:43):
out of you because it's dysphoric.
And I think my dream is to like,figure out a way to like have
that stuff be minimized, have a little bit of a structure that
I'm working within and not reinventing the wheel each time
I do it. Because if I have that, I get to
just, I just wanna make a bunch of stuff and live a long time.
(35:03):
Maybe the nicest thing that anyone has ever said to me, or
it really meant a lot. My friend Ava, who was on set
with us shadowing me and just did like a lot of care work
while we were making the movie, pulled cards for me one morning,
read my tarot when we were making the film and came to set
and was like, Jane, I just want you to know I've been talking to
Dave about all these, you know, like school shooter movies that
(35:26):
I want to make and just like telling them all these different
ideas I had and, you know, like ambitions.
And they pulled my cards and they were like the cards said
that like you're going to get tomake and tell every story you
want to and you're going to havemore than enough time.
And the idea of having like morethan enough time really meant a
lot to me because I think there is this like scarcity mindset
(35:49):
you can get in as a trans personof, of like, Oh my God, like I
need to be living this all rightnow to the biggest fullest
potential. And I really, I think I, I've
been thinking just a lot about like how it would be cool to
have a long and healthy life andmake a lot of things that I'm
proud of in that long and healthy life and have a lot of
(36:10):
like love and different experience and, and grow old.
And I think that would be awesome.
How about you? I can't wait to be old you're.
Going to be good at being old. Yeah, I really want to make the
jalapeno popper. I'm going to write this movie
with Alex Mcvicker. He's my good friend and make
like a really extravagant musical.
(36:32):
And I want to finish October Crow, what's almost done.
October Crow is a film that I made with it stars Alex
Mcvicker, Peter Nolan Smith, who's an iconic poet and
professor of nothingness, who's 72, and my mom, Laura Lundy, she
plays La Bruja, the villain, andit's sort of a story about
(36:53):
friendship and New York and a BDSM brothel and yeah, it's it's
pretty weird you. Made it.
Yeah, I made it. Yeah.
We, we would like come to set every day.
I filmed it on my phone. We had two lav mics and we would
just improvised the scenes. And I said we just had two
requirements. It has to be long enough and we
have to win the palm door. And if we don't win the palm
(37:15):
door, we have to start a Film Festival called the Kansas Film
Festival and we'll award the Palmy Dorfman presented by Tommy
Dorfman. So I want to do that, but I also
just want to like make movies. I think I want to act in movies.
I feel like ready to do that. I want to act in some normal
movies. So if you have a script about
(37:35):
like a guy who you know, he's like an artist and I.
Actually had in New York. There's this book that I like
that I've always thought that I would love to direct an
adaptation of that you would star in as a normal guy.
Yeah. And this book, you ever read
this book, Stoner? No, no, You should pick it up.
Pick it up. See if it resonates.
Yeah. Yeah, I just want to do like a
kind of like Cassavetes, Peter Falk, sort of like Mumble movie,
(37:58):
you know, I want to do a friend movie and I really want to play
a detective and and yeah, I justwant to like get comfortable in
myself. I think.
I want to like let go of the anxiety of being looked at
because that's a stupid hindrance.
And like I love myself and I love the community that I have
like found myself so lucky to bea part of.
(38:19):
And I want us all to be like really comfortable and free,
like documenting and celebratingeach other and like putting our
work out any. Advice for people who you have
this preternatural ability to like, prioritize, play in big
ways as an adult. For instance, like making a
weird movie on your cell phone that no one asked you to do.
(38:42):
But I feel that this sense of like play and commitment to
seeing it through this is a veryrare thing.
Where does it come from and how can people cultivate it for
themselves? So it comes from the fact that I
was raised in an artistic family.
So my parents are both performers and, and theater
(39:02):
people and artists. So I was raised with like them
making work all the time and they had jobs that they did
during the day called day jobs and then at night they would go
to rehearsals and on weekends and such.
So there were there was just like a culture of making at
home. And I think like the way that
you can cultivate that for yourself is you have to let go
(39:26):
of all the structures of power and money that inhibit your own
artistic impulses because like alot of things, you don't need
money for. Most of the software that I use
to make stuff is free. I use Pages.
We use Pages to make Wave, whichis a free software on Mac.
I use iMovie to cut October Crowand it works very well.
(39:47):
And you can just like anytime I need a tool, like a tool that
you would use in Photoshop. You just like Google how to
blur, like blur the edges on a picture.
And there are like a zillion free websites for everything.
So I would just say like, in your free time, just start like
trying to make work that, as I said before, like work that
feels like normal. Like try to do things that feel
(40:08):
like the way that your heroes are making work.
And you might surprise yourself.It might be a natural impulse
for you. And if it's not, and if you find
that maybe your natural impulsesare more specifically in another
area, find other people and learn to trust them and
collaborate with each other because trust is like, the
number one thing. You think so?
I think so, yeah. Do you feel like you need other
(40:28):
people kind of egging you on to to get to get these things
going, or is it all sort of an internal need that gets
realized? It's internal, but it's also
like, well, most of my friendships are structured
around this work, so it's like, let's hang out.
Well, I guess if we're hanging out, we might as well be working
on the score. Totally.
You know, yeah, I think I remember.
I remember like when I started hanging out with you, you, you
(40:51):
and and like Mina Sammy, it was like art played.
It's that's a cool thing. Low stakes art.
I I struggle with it increasingly now that like I'm
doing art as a quote UN quote career.
It's really important I think because sometimes it's like you
get so like polluted by thinkingbig, which.
(41:14):
Is why it's important to try like always be trying new
mediums which shout out Jane became a punk singer.
Yeah, let's, let's talk about it.
That was so. That was so.
I mean, that was one of the craziest nights of my life,
honestly. I, you know, I've talked a bit
about my like screen trilogy, World's Fair.
I saw the TV glow and the third part of the screen trilogy is
(41:36):
this massive like universe that I, I, I created.
It's called public access after World and and I just wrote, no
one asked me to, but I wrote like 1600 pages of a screenplay
that was meant to be the first two seasons of a three season TV
show. Awesome and plotted out like
(41:59):
just like beat by beat, plotted out every element of it and this
whole mythology and universe andall these characters and the
ways they would change. And the third season I never
wrote, but I like I you know, I know it, I know it, it's it's
all it's all in there in the in the gullet.
And I was like, I'm so terrifiedof television and I basically
told my managers like, let's pitch this, but tell everyone
(42:21):
that I like, will only do it if I get like a green light to make
at least one full season of it out of the gate.
And, you know, and, and even even then I was like, we got to
like, hold on to the rights because like, I, I can't let
this thing loose. It's too important.
And so I, I pitched it and a bunch of the networks were like,
(42:43):
excuse a little young for us, but there is this, you know,
he's a little young. There is this person at HBO who
really loved it, but I think couldn't pick it up because at
the time there was like a strictedict that they could only pick
up new shows that had like, thatwere like succession, like about
like dysfunctional families. And I found out they were like
(43:03):
the last domino to fall in termsof the like, are you going to
pay me like 100 mil or whatever?It'll help me make this like,
like fantasy epic. And I found out like right as I
was on my way to the punk studiothat night, which I forget how
it came about. Maybe we had just talked about
wanting to write a song together, but.
And we didn't really write a song together.
(43:24):
Bridge rented us a practice space.
And yeah, I had never really like, like I used to play Bright
Eye songs in my basement like I said.
But I think I have a lot of shame about music and being
like, like singing is very dysphoric for me.
But bridge like took me into thestudio that night and 1st.
We just did a bunch of screaming, a bunch of yelling
and running around in this tiny soundproof room.
(43:46):
And then, yeah, we I banged on the drums while you just, like,
freestyled. We took turns banging on the
drums while the other freestyled.
It was really freeing because I think it was like a recommitment
to this idea that I really do think about, like, artistic
mediums, which is you have to risk and embrace embarrassment
if you're going to get anywhere truthful.
(44:08):
And, yeah, just like getting outside of myself.
Like, I can get outside of myself when I'm, like, alone in
my room writing, but getting outside myself with my body.
This was new for me and really, really meant a lot to me.
It was also the night you told me you were in love with Sammy.
And then I, I was, I think I forget if I got the HBO call
(44:29):
about them not wanting to do theshow before or after we played
the music. I think it might have been
after. And I was like, that just
happened. I need to go get a tattoo.
I had never gotten a tattoo before.
I was like, I need my first tattoo.
And there's like in public access afterworld, the sort of
like a repeated refrain, a tagline, if you will, is like,
(44:51):
make it real in the first sort of section of it, this character
or TV screen and just just repeating over and over again,
find the receiver, make it real,find the receiver, make it real.
Find the receiver, make it real.And then screams at the top of
her lungs. And I was like, bridge, I need
to get my first tattoo. It needs to say make it real.
And it's like a promise to myself to make this thing that
(45:14):
all the TV networks said, you know, I was skewed too young,
real in some form. And I had thought through like
what I would do. And I was like, I had sort of
like committed emotionally to myself that I was gonna, even
though I'd never written anything like that could be
construed as like a novel before.
I was like, all right, I'm goingto write this thing as like a
series of three novels. And I'm going to teach myself
(45:35):
how to do that. And I basically spent the next
year and a half doing that. And that night I was like, I
need to go get a tattoo. So I know that, like, it's on my
skin. Like, I'll like, actually see
this thing through. I won't let this thing die on
the vine without making it real.And and you were very sweet.
You went with me to the tattoo parlor and you, you wrote.
(45:55):
Make it real and I. Gave you lots of examples.
You did how it could. Be could have been a spooky
font. And then you, you held my hand
while it got tattooed on me. Thanks.
Now it's on your arm. Yeah, my first time and you made
it real. And I did write the novel.
I'm really quite proud of it, actually.
And I don't know, that was really special.
I, I, I think it was like, it's rare that you have like a night
(46:15):
where you're like, wow, this is like an era turning point or
something. That whole night was really was.
Storming. Yeah.
I think it's cool to like resolve yourself as maybe what
we were talking about. It's like cool to personally
resolve yourself towards a thingthat you've decided that you
need to do, you know, And I think that you and I both do
(46:39):
that. Maybe.
Yeah, we're like, we're going todo the weird, crazy thing that,
like, seems insane, Yeah. No other, no other way.
I've tried the other ways. I've auditioned for a lot of
stuff and only weirdos want me. Only weirdos want me.
Yeah. You think so?
Yeah. I'm blessed.
But you just seem normal to me. Everyone else seems weird.
(47:01):
You too. Thanks for listening.
The A 24 podcast is produced by us A 24.
Special thanks to our editor TomWyatt and Robot Repair, who
composed our theme.
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