Thirty Thousand Square Feet with Kane Parsons & James Wan

Topics covered include: Kane's parents keeping him off the internet until age eight, pirating way too much software, the origin of the Backrooms, the purgatories we build for ourselves, meeting your heroes after early virality, building 30,000 sq. ft. of sets on a soundstage, Kane accidentally calling his film a "product" and immediately wanting to flee to the woods, shotlisting an entire feature in Blender, renting out a Vancouver theater to watch 2001: A Space Odyssey during prep, James Wan's hopeful advice for young filmmakers, Renate's spiritual curiosity, control variables, and bringing the family together for the theatrical premiere of Backrooms.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello there, I'm James Wan. And I'm Kane Parsons.
And you're listening to the A 24podcast, Kane buddy, how are
you, man? I'm doing well.
How you doing? James Good, good.
I'm, I'm well as well. So we're here to talk about all
things back rooms and, and everything related to it and
yourself obviously, yeah. I, I have a lot I can say.

(00:22):
So it's been, it's been a prettyall consuming like 4:00-ish
years or so now. So.
So it's been, it's been a prettylong journey for you from I
guess from where you started with the shorts, right, the
first short all the way to now the full on proper feature film
version of it. And it's been quite the journey.

(00:43):
It is changed in ways that I definitely did not expect when I
initially posted that short. And I mean, you were, you were,
you were present at the very beginning of that, I think.
I think, I think if I'm not mistaken, the first time we met,
it was over Zoom. And I think you were in post on
Aquaman. Too right that sounds.
And you walked in and you were eating a salad and you said

(01:06):
hello and we talked for like oneor two minutes and stepped up.
But I think that was, I think that was the first time.
That was the first time we met via Zoom, Yes and and I was
eating a salad or one of us was.It seared into my brain and
that's funny. It's forever my.
That's cool. And but then we met in person
when you came out to LA to visitus on the set of Night Swim.

(01:28):
Yeah, Yeah. Right.
I can't remember. What year was that it?
Was 2023 That was 23. OK, 2023, so just like 3 years
ago exactly to. Three years ago And how old were
you when you came to visit us? Would have been 17. 17 wow
amazing. So I definitely have a lot of
questions I want to ask you. And and I guess the best place
to possibly start is let's go all the way back.

(01:52):
You know, let's take us back. I would actually go back beyond
to, you know, to what you were doing that led you to your
interest in in making shorts in film making in general.
So I'd love to hear a little bitabout, you know, your, your,
your history there and your passion and what kind of got you
into all of this. Yeah, I mean, I, I try, I try my

(02:12):
best to trace it. So I'm, I'm sure there's some
things that are like results of random subconscious, you know,
of course, like there's gonna besome like noise to it that I
can't quite pick up. But I, but I know that I've
always kind of had a tendency ora bias since trial to, to go
towards something, a version of creativity in some way.
And I've had, you know, an upbringing that did not directly

(02:34):
like disable that, that desire. It was like I was able to find
ways to do it mostly through like, you know, like I was
drawing like growing up quite a bit.
Like that was a, a big thing I would spend a lot of time doing
And, and that would turn into like, like I, I eventually got
like, like an old like digicam camera and I would like go and
like do a little stop motion animation with Lego.

(02:55):
And it's like, I don't think it was a particularly unique start
in that way. It's like, it's like, it's a
pretty common, I guess, like activities as a kid when I want
to go in that direction. I remember probably by around
the time I was like 9 or so, I was like, I had like the term
filmmaker was a thing or director was in my brain enough
that I was like, yeah, I like, Ilike movies.

(03:15):
I want to make movies. That's cool.
I didn't have like a lot of access to the Internet until I
was around like 8 or 9 or so. Right, because your parents were
keeping you away from the Internet.
Yeah. They were smart.
OK, But. But it sounds to me like they
were very supportive of of the kind of things that you went to,
right? Yeah.
Yeah. And the fact that you said that
they didn't hold you back and they just kind of let you
experiment and play it and basically just explore your

(03:36):
creativity. So it seems to me like you were
really into, you know, like you were kind of drawn to things
that were off the visual arts. Like you would definitely
attract it to visual. Yeah.
Visuals. My brain is very like strictly
visual most of the time, like usually like words or visuals in
my head rather than actual like sounds and stuff.
So it's usually like very. So you see things in your head,

(03:58):
right? You see it and they.
Very clearly, but I. Can't get it out so I.
Can't do for some reason I can'tdo like written language in my
head but I can only do visuals. So it's like I kind.
Of I totally get it quite a bit.Yeah, that's super cool.
Yeah, so like I, I know that around that time I had
PlayStation 3 and I was very into, I got into Minecraft for
my friends and there was like this game, Little big planet,

(04:19):
like these are sandbox games where you can like have create
functions. And so I was, you know,
exploring what it's like to, youknow, create something under the
guise of like a technically a 3Dprogram, even though it's inside
of like a game engine and it's like oriented as a game.
I was sort of like getting the feeling for like, oh, look, I
can make a thing and then other people come in and interact with

(04:41):
this thing and then I can kind of upscale the feeling of like I
want to curate this experience more and more.
And these are not this. Nothing about this was grand or
like hyper compelling because itwas like 9 and 10 and you know
none of. This was OK.
So you were doing all this around 9:00 or 10:00-ish years
old? Yeah, But what I would, I guess
I would highlight is like it's no different than what I think
most of my peers were doing. Like even people who don't have

(05:02):
a desire to go into art field zoo, it's like building stuff in
Minecraft. Creative mode was very like,
right? It was just playing.
To you guys, you, you just playing basically right It was.
Playing and I would take it a little more seriously probably
where like I would like come up with super contrived rules for
like some random like sub game we wanted to play or something.
And then it was like was simultaneously watching a lot of

(05:22):
VFX driven work on YouTube, likeindependent Youtubers, like
older crews, sort of stuff, you know, encouraging people to just
like, hey, like any anyone can kind of with the right software,
you don't even need the good hardware for it.
And it's like a simple camera, you can you can do rudimentary
VFX work. And I kind of got a bit of an
appetite for that. And then I pirated way too much
software and got a bunch of viruses and technically doing

(05:45):
some filmmaking stuff on my parents phone.
And it was kind of like game oriented largely like I was
really. You know what?
This is actually good to talk about because what it does show
is your journey to become a filmmaker actually went down to
paths, right? Like you were shooting stuff,
you were making little things onthe side, but also like you were
saying your your brain of like being into the technical, like

(06:06):
the computing side of things. That then also informs the way
you make your little shorts, right?
Yeah. So you understanding the
computing aspect of film makers of of just storytelling in
general and how you would use that to inform the kind of stuff
that you would make. And so that became a big part of
what you did right, You know, like a big part of like, you

(06:27):
know, like all that sort of computer language and
programming and, and understanding that you have
there and sort of using that as as the visual effects sort of
backbones to what you were making your shorts with.
And so I think that's really interesting that you didn't
actually necessarily go down thepath of, Hey, I want to be a
video game maker, but you sort of stuck to storytelling, film

(06:49):
making, but using the craft thatyou had the passion and you had
learned acquired to to kind of assist you in your film making.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, like I definitely, it was around like
the beginning of middle school that that's when I was, you
know, getting the software and trying out After Effects for the
first time and was like doing a bunch of tutorials.
And it was mostly like project based where, you know, I would
get excited about a scene or a visual or a moment in my head

(07:11):
that I wanted to see exist. But it had, there's no nothing
surrounding it supporting that moment.
So it's like, OK, so now I gottalearn how to do these things so
I can make that moment. So I gotta learn the software
and also like I need to learn how to edit it properly so I can
put the right kind of reverb on this music that I'm hearing.
And like, not now when we need to like build a whole little
short film around this moment just so it makes sense in a

(07:33):
context. And then that was kind of like I
not accidentally, but I kind of just like went through the
process a few times with a few different short films when I was
again, like, these things are not, they're not on YouTube for
a reason. Like I've privated them, but
like, you know, I was, I was definitely pretty active doing
stuff in any free time I could get.
It was like the only thing I would do starting, starting in
like end of elementary school. It just became a pretty like

(07:57):
laser focused sort of obsession.And I, I think like it was once
I got it, once I really kind of like felt like I was getting a
hang of After Effects and like the 3D tools available to me in
there and taking advantage of some student licenses and stuff.
Then that just kind of became anaddiction and I was like only
only using. But you enjoy, right?
You enjoy using these programs. It's so much fun.

(08:18):
It's so funny because I started using After Effects in high
school and you know, I started using it because it was part of
my school program and stuff likethat.
But I can't get bored of it. But the technical stuff, I enjoy
the technical stuff of film making and doing stuff like
this, but they're just sitting. I got to some point where I'm
like, this is just too much for me.
I, I just want to get out there.I just want to get out there and

(08:39):
just shoot from the hip and just, you know, kind of, you
know, just become a bit more running gun, right?
I found the process a little bittoo the typical site, sometimes
a little bit too limiting, at least for me.
But clearly you enjoyed it, and you embraced.
It, yeah, it's, it's because I, I think the I, I like, I have a
hard time with uncontrollable variables and whatnot.
So I, I think that for me, I, I,I enjoy a certain level of run

(09:02):
and gun. But but I I think I am the kind
of person who needs to know every single thing about the
thing I'm making before any other people are even involved
with it, or before anything else, even before there's a
chance for something to get you know what?
That's a really good trait for adirector to have.
I to. Be well prepared, yeah?
Of course, but I think like, youknow, because I was a kid in
middle school, I wasn't like I was doing film making, but it

(09:23):
wasn't like serious like it was inherently there's like a joke
component to what I was doing, but it.
Was like, you know, just playingaround it.
It wasn't like career path yet at that point.
Right. I wasn't thinking about it in
that way. I, I did a few like local level
film festivals around that time and, and like, so you know, they
were part of my brain was definitely thinking about it in,
in that way. But I was still thinking like,
OK, time to go through high school and then I'll go to

(09:44):
college for film school. And then then I don't know what
happens after that, but I'll probably make movies.
It's like, right, Some vague notion of that.
So, so let's talk about that. How in your journey did all of
that, what you just stated there, right, LED you to your
very first short with backrooms.I'm sure you made a lot of other
stuff before that, but how did all this lead to backrooms?

(10:04):
It was a beginning, beginning ofthe pandemic.
I got into Blender. I started teaching myself
Blender. I, you know, I was fortunate
enough to have a situation whereI was just, you know, blocked
that home and, and I, he was doing zoom classes and I was
able to sort of. This was 20/20/20 and how old
were you? I was 14.
OK. You know, I was getting into

(10:24):
Blender. I was, maybe I didn't mention it
earlier. I'm a big fan of the Valve
properties like Portal and Half Life, and those majorly informed
a lot of my creative sensibilities.
I think growing up. And that was around the time
Half Life Alex was coming out and I, I was wanted to do fan
art for that. And that got me like really
motivated to figure some stuff out in Blender.
And then I did some things and then I was like, wait a minute,
now I just kind of know how to use Blender.

(10:45):
And so I could start within likea couple like 2 weeks or so.
Like Blender's really intuitive,you know, when you're young and
near software, you're able to kind of pick it up through
osmosis kind of like quickly. But, but I do think it's just
genuinely a they, they, they've streamlined the software in such
a way that it is like very accessible.
But I, I, you know, started doing that.
I made a few films again like that year.

(11:06):
But then by 2021, I, I had gotten back into Attack on
Titan, which is, you know, obviously a pretty big property
around the world. And I was basically adapting set
pieces from that into found footage, but it was in like 19,
thirties 1940s war like film footage of like set pieces
inside that world. And those like that was when my
channel actually took off. OK, wait, hang on, You were

(11:28):
creating images for that, but just just inventing making them
up on through Blend or whatever program?
Yeah, what I was. Doing is because it's an anime
and manga. This was like a fan, kind of
like, you know, short or whatever.
A fan project. So it was an anime and manga and
what I was doing was like a series of these videos.
Well, I did one thinking it was,it's gonna be 1, but then people
lost their minds over it. So I started doing more.

(11:49):
But it was like basically, what would it look like?
What, what would an actual honest perspective into that
world look like if it was somehow real?
So just like what does a scarier, more realistic approach
of just viewing this thing look like?
And, and so I, that's what I putout using Blender.
So it's all things from the series, but just through a
slightly different lens. But was it still animation like
it? Like 2D.
Animation blender lots of compositing so so it looked

(12:11):
roughly I mean like hoping you see past the effects flaws like
it the goal being it looks like real authentic but.
But real world? From like 30s or 40s live.
Action. Yeah black and white live action
totally like trying to look photo real, right and and so
like that I'd never had any kindof engagement like that before
It's like the first one did like10 million views and like the

(12:33):
next one did like another 10 million.
It like wow it kept like going big in my channel I think got
200,000 subscribers from that and then wow.
But I did that for all of 2021 and like I was riding a high
with like that was that was really exciting.
I yeah, it was great having. You were getting validated,
Yeah. And it was.
Like motivation to like every week they wanted to do things.
So it was like I was constantly kind of churning stuff out and

(12:54):
that was just fun. That's cool because I.
Especially during the lockdown when you didn't really have.
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I certainly found a lot to
do during that time, but then I got fatigued by it.
And because I used up all the plot points in the series that I
could adapt and. But people wanted more still.
And I was kind of like, OK, well, I kind of want to do other
things now that winter in 2021. I I I guess for a preamble I

(13:16):
have to do a preamble about likewhat the backgrounds are?
I would assume probably just. Like to give us a little bit of
history of where all that. Comes from 2019.
There was this 4 Chan post whichis, you know, totally anonymous.
Anything posted there or at least in this context is not
really traceable and we can't atthis point in time determine
whoever's who posted any of this, which has been a big
defining part of the backgrounds.

(13:37):
It's, it's weird, but basically there's an image posted of a
like a off yellow sort of dingy,you know, it's unclear if it was
an office space for the back of a furniture store or what.
With just a caption, like a single paragraph caption
basically setting up a concept of if you're not careful and you
no clip out of reality in the wrong areas.
And no clip is like a video gameterm for phasing through a solid

(13:59):
surface, like out of the world. If you fall out of reality in
the wrong areas, you'll you'll end up in the backgrounds, which
is essentially an essentially endless array of like kind of
not quite repeating. But you could think of it as
like procedurally generated or just like you could keep going,
walking in any direction and you'll just be stuck in this
world of, you know, drop ceiling, this yellow wallpaper

(14:22):
that's just kind of like sulfur looking.
And so it's a maze like world that just kind of keeps.
Going it's a maze like world that doesn't have an inherent
point to it. And I think the idea, what I
always appreciate it is that it's just described like it's a
natural phenomenon. There's nothing like like like
spiritual or or like there's no the moral morality to it.

(14:44):
So it's not like it's a divine judgement.
If like like if you've done wrong, if you've got guilt
harbor, it'll take you away or something.
It's just like it's not. Hell.
Yeah, it's not hell, it's not even like quite purgatory,
'cause it you don't do anything to end up there, it just
randomly happens and you can't really do anything to get out.
It's just. Like you said, a procedural
dungeon run. Yeah, it's just a hypothetical.
Like it's just, it's playing into the the feeling of

(15:05):
glitching and getting stuck in avideo game basically.
And it's like there's no fairness in it.
There's no it's just like that really sucks if that happens,
right, And so that's why it kindof caught on is like a man
that's like a pretty abysmal. Can you imagine that?
It's like, you know, imagine being in like that monotonous,
you know, it's, it's like such amundane, mediocre sort of

(15:26):
environment that could be in anyplace.
Basically it's. Because visually, it's not that
sexy, right? It's not, it's not like a dark,
creepy place. That's what people creep comes
from. Yeah.
Yeah. Just the mundaneness of it.
Just like how bland it looks, right?
I've seen. And so it started with a
picture, right? That one picture.
But then people started buildingupon it, right?
They started adding stories to it.
So they're adding myth and law to it.

(15:48):
Is that how it? So, so that picture, that
picture was posted. Someone else saved it.
I mean, that picture had been floating around since the early
2000s. It's from a furniture store in
Oshkosh, WI. But basically, yeah, they posted
it with a caption and that became a screenshot.
And then like it it that screenshot floated around like
everywhere as a meme around May of 2019.
And I saw it. I was in middle school.
I was aware of it. I didn't see it and immediately

(16:08):
go, whoa, I need to make AI needto make a series and a movie.
And like that was very that wouldn't have ever crossed my
mind. It was, it was more of a, this
is, this is a random thing on the Internet that is weirdly
intriguing. And I, I can tell why people are
interested in this and I kind ofwant more of it, but there's
nothing more to get because it'sjust an image and a caption.
And, and then, then I moved on and everyone else moved on and

(16:30):
we stopped hearing about the backrooms for the most part.
And you would get an occasional reference to it here and there.
You would get, you know, memes. A character falls through the
ground out of ATV that Peter Griffin falls through the
sidewalk and lands in the backgrounds or something.
And the punchline is just, wow, he's fucked pretty much.
And, and, and it basically like people I understand now and I
did kind of understand at the time, like there were some

(16:52):
groups on like like wikis and stuff writing basically doing
more with the notion of the backrooms where it's like, what
if there's sort of like a game like level system to it?
And, and again, like I'm, I don't mean to misrepresent like
that side of the community, but it's in my understanding that
it's more of like a community driven sort of like the SCP

(17:13):
foundation. If people are aware of that,
it's sort of like most anyone can add because there's no
direct author and there's no claim to authorship of this
thing. So it's just like the main lore
that people would consider outside of my adaptation of
backgrounds would be just kind of a miscellaneous collection of
little entries that like many different people with many

(17:34):
different views of the background, so.
Right, right. Right, but it's somehow viewed
as one coherent thing, even though it's definitely not.
Got it. So then you came into it.
Yeah. And then tell us your
contribution to to the world. I mean, I, I just wanted to
like, I didn't in my mind, I wasn't thinking of like these
people are not getting the backgrounds.
I'm going to step in and show them how it was not, you know,

(17:56):
so far. I, I was just into, you know,
like I, I was getting back into these.
In life, you know it's a discovery process, right?
And you discovered it. I was, I was getting back into
these liminal space photo compilations and stuff and it
was like, man, this is, I want to scratch this itch.
I want to see what comes with this.
And I went in Blender and I madeenvironments that felt true to
what the backrooms wanted to be and were trying to be.

(18:17):
And I just kind of like moved the camera through and it's like
this, this is just a fun, relaxing project where I tried
to evoke the feeling of this place, but in the video form
rather than imagery. I didn't even like the opening
thing was just like a thing I filmed after I did everything
else when I was like, it's like,OK, well, to make this a proper
like film, like, how do I what'sa weigh in?
What's a quick, easy way in thatjust gets us out of the real

(18:38):
world and into the rest of the the short?
And it's like, just got my friends at school one day just
to stand around and they didn't really know what it was for
exactly. And I just like got my, I was
doing it on my phone and I ran the whole thing through the VCR.
So, so it, you know, it doesn't look like iPhone footage really,
but and then just like at the end of it, just make the camera
go to the ground and they're like, what was that?
Why did you do that? And it's like like I'll, I'll

(18:58):
show you in a few days and then and.
Then show you in a few days. And it got posted and it didn't
do great for like the first two days.
And then somehow I guess like some, some shadow figure behind
the scenes pulled a lever or something, 'cause it's like it
suddenly started getting in the inboxes of or sorry, in the like
the, the feeds of certain reaction Youtubers.
And they started watching it. And then that made it like, go

(19:19):
go nuts. Wow.
And it went nuts and but pretty much immediately within the same
day, because I'm neglecting to mention one kind of important
part of this, I think, which is that I had had this other story
and you know, as you do, just another random story that I had
in my head for a little bit at the time.
It wasn't defined exactly, but it was like enough of an engine
there that is like I knew I wanted to explore it, didn't

(19:40):
know how like what the opportunity would be.
And I realized backrooms could just totally like these two
things could melt together and then boom, there's like a very
specific plot and structure thatI can just start immediately.
And I did. And so like within like a day of
of that first short, I started teasing this element with like
this the the Async Research Institute, which makes it more
of a sort of sort of like a worndown, like a like a mystery

(20:05):
techno thriller with supernatural elements like
underneath. I'm not great with genre labels,
but I would say that's kind of what it's become.
Right, right. So obviously it stood up very
innocently. But then as you sort of like
progress and the IDs came to youlike, oh, maybe I can put a
supernatural spin to this. Yeah, well, I think it's
inherently supernatural When I say supernatural, like my
version of supernatural, I personally am really drawn to

(20:27):
any like I I need my supernatural to feel like hard
sci-fi. Usually I like things to feel
like nature and like I mean likeI was talking about with the
backgrounds. I, I think I personally, as a
creative struggle with things that promote an overly human
view of existence and of life. And usually I'm biased towards
things that feel like humans areincidental to nature in some
way. Rather than being like a driving

(20:48):
factor to the world to be withinand letting like the laws of the
universe be more more, you know,factors that that that resulted
in our consciousness being the way it is and perceiving a sort
of sense of importance being like derived from just
happenstance and being essentialto existing and living and
procreating and stuff. So anyway, I feel like what I

(21:12):
was excited about with with thatconcept was being able to sort
of get past like the initial like, OK, we have a short about
someone falling into the backgrounds and it's a scary, it
is a scary place. And but I think it's like more
intriguing than people give it credit for.
Like I think people do miss the mark sometimes with their own
backgrounds projects when they go for like a space where the

(21:33):
lights get too dark, it gets toogreen, it's like scary scary.
Like if it's trying to be like adark haunted house or a dungeon,
it just falls apart because that's not the original image is
very bright and it's very like low contrast and kind of like
faded looking. So you're saying try that?
The key here is to not make it look like a horror movie.
Yeah, I think just the. The blandness, the simplicity,
the the the fact that it feels like everyday life is what makes

(21:56):
it kind of terrifying. It's the context in the the the
way it extrapolates pretty much infinitely.
That's like the that's where thehorror lies.
It can't be in the inherent visual.
It's the context that does it right though the the visual is
off putting. And can I ask you so
philosophically, do you think there is this concept of the,
the, the, the fear of technologyor obviously that's not the case

(22:20):
because, you know, you're obviously embracing technology
in such a big way. But but do you think is that
what you're speaking to to some degree here when you said, you
know, like you sort of leaning to the more like the hard
science of where you know a lot of like the scary stuff is
coming from? Yeah.
So I would say that that the backrooms is a thing in the
first place because no, I mean, I, I would say one of the main

(22:42):
anxieties it's reacting to, if not the main anxiety is, is the
sort of pervasive, I don't want to use the word anxiety again.
The pervasive fear that, that, you know, with all the resources
that we, I guess, at least in this part of the world where we
have the resources and we have the connection of the Internet
or feeling like is, is, you know, we have more information

(23:02):
than ever. It's starting to mean less and
less the more we get. Information is starting to get
put through a blender and and fed back to us in a way where
the human race is now starting to role play as itself.
It almost starts to seem a little bit with.
Trump in the Matrix. A little bit, but, but I think
that like gradually, and this isnot like new and I'm not saying
anything like profound about this 'cause I think, I think

(23:25):
we've known this for a while, but we've been like trending for
a few centuries into like a, a spiral of industrialism that's
causing. And it's not like malice.
It's not like malicious by any means.
I mean, like, yes, there are individual people that you could
name and say they are malicious and that's easy to do, But but
it's, it's the fact that it's a natural phenomenon that arises
in like every culture and it's asystemic thing that is almost

(23:47):
impossible to root out of our species.
And so there's these, you know, obviously patterns beyond us
that I I try to engage with in asympathetic way.
And, and I think that like the backrooms is reacting to the
fear of like, OK, we're we're kind of getting stuck in this,
this monoculture. Literally even like in an
architectural context where you are everywhere you go, like a

(24:09):
drop ceiling is maybe not the most prevalent.
It's not like everywhere in the world, but like at least in this
part of the world, like drop ceilings are kind of a symbol
of, of uniformity or, or, or yeah, I guess efficiency.
I mean, they're pretty, pretty effective at what they do.
They're not bad. I'm not criticizing the drop
ceiling, but but it's. Functionality to them, but

(24:30):
they're not the most interestingof forms.
It's the idea of spending all ofexistence in that place, in that
non space basically of like thatthat industrial environment
that's. It is purgatory to some degree.
It is, it is. It's a purgatory that we built.
It's not like a like a purgatorybeyond humanity.
It's like one that we're clearlypushing ourselves towards.
But. We're building prisons for

(24:51):
ourselves. That's essentially what it is.
We're building prisons for ourselves, if you will.
Yeah, it's, again, it's like getting us further and further
from what the human nervous system evolved to basically
thrive on. And, and we're kind of getting
past a place where like, you know, we evolved into our
environments and then we changedthe environments and now we're,

(25:12):
I wouldn't be surprised if that's doing, doing something
to, to a lot of the subconsciousand just the general, you know,
energy and health of, of, of people I know.
Sue, can I ask you then, so a lot of these themes that you
have in your head, did you feel like the backrooms, you know,
like the that was a great like agood platform for you to explore
other ideas that you have. So like what led to like

(25:34):
subsequent, you know, like othershorts that came along, you
know, in the backroom as well? Did you just start started
going? I want to explore, you know,
like other elements within this world and then that basically
what let you down like the series of them.
Yeah, I I wanted to, I mean, largely expressed what I was
just talking about a little bit.It was like a lot of it for me

(25:54):
is just exploring these ideas myself.
And I want a way to check myselfand test myself.
And if I can find a way to wrap up these, you know, academic
ideas in a creative package, then I can get creatively
excited about it. And it's like medicine with the
sugar sort of where I'm like internalizing these things and
testing myself on these things and not not in like a true,
there's no compare. Like this is not comparable at

(26:15):
all to like a an actual school experience.
It's not what the what I'm trying to say with that.
But for me, just as someone who enjoys learning and enjoys just
knowing more about literally anything, I mean, it's kind of
what the film's about in some ways is like, you know, that
part of the brand that that forces human beings into a state
of curiosity. So did you find when you started

(26:35):
making, you know, the series of of, of of these shorts that that
there were many people out therethat shared the same interest as
you like, you know, the people were fascinated about what you
were doing and that wanted to see more of it.
Is that what kind of like kind of force you down that path or
not force but you know, made youwant to, you know, go down and
continue? I was very aware that those

(26:55):
people existed and it was kind of the audience that I was.
The audience that I speak to is the audience that I'm also a
part of, which I think is maybe why I've had a decent rhythm
with them for as long as I have,which is like, you know, I grew
up watching like, like web series and energies and like
consuming that stuff. And, and not necessarily when I
say watching, it's, I guess I mean, just following because

(27:17):
sometimes it's not even something to watch.
Sometimes it's you're visiting aweb page and you're looking at
the metadata of files shared on that page and you get story
information from that. Or you're, you know, like a lot
of the time you're actually paying attention to a YouTube
who's talking about and summarizing a series.
Because sometimes these series get so dense and complex and

(27:38):
hard to follow that the real story, like a more entertaining
story is, is in the recap of it.So I kind of like engineered my
stuff to work on a recap level, I think.
And a lot of the stuff on YouTube has been exactly that.
And I've, I was amazed, like, like I was kind of losing my
mind when, when the shorts firstcaught on because it was like
all the people I looked up to online were like suddenly

(27:58):
talking about it. And for obvious, for obvious
reasons, that would be exciting,I think for, for anyone in that
position. But it was like.
Can you mention who were some ofthese people?
It's. Just like YouTube channels like
like Brandon people, Nexpo nightmind.
I think this is like forget likea full list of the time but it
was like. That's so cool, right?

(28:19):
It was, you know, like it must have been validated.
It was cool. It felt like, it felt like it
was very weird. It was, it was bizarre.
It was bizarre. It was validating but also like.
Is this? Really it yeah.
But I guess it was just like seeing like getting it through
my teenage head that like the, the world that I watch on a
screen. And I know this is so obvious
and I, I knew it, but I didn't feel it was like I, I guess like

(28:41):
when I was younger, like so manyof the things that I looked up
to artistically, sort of like above in some way, like there's
some inaccessible barrier there where it's like you could never
meet these people. You could never, never, never,
never interact with this brand or this fictional world in any.
Meaningful way. It's like it's in a different

(29:01):
world. You can do fan art, but like you
don't get up there and it's likeso.
Here with with this, you actually have the opportunity to
breakthrough and that's kind of what you did, right?
And it happened in a very casualway with no fanfare.
I mean, it was exciting, but it's like, it's very simple.
And I was like, oh, this is whatit is.
This is how it feels. That's.
Usually how this works, you knowwhen you always expect it,
that's when it you know good stuff happens, right?
You just do what you do, be passionate about what you want

(29:23):
to do. And, and like I've always said,
you know, like I, I say that to,to sort of young film makers
like yourself and you know, anyone out there who ask me for
advice, I just say just make your movies.
Just do it. And you know, if you do
something great, people will discover it, especially with
technology that we have today, right, like YouTube, I mean,
like there's so many platforms out there that you can just put
it out there. Go shoot something for no money.

(29:43):
You don't need money. You just you can shoot anything
with your phone these days, right?
You don't need a special camera.It's like like I had to have
when I was growing up making these little shorts.
So just go make something and put it out.
They can be anything and you're bound to find fans and that that
fandom could be, it doesn't matter how small they are, how
big they are. It helps to flame the creativity

(30:04):
in you and it makes you want to do more.
And so and I think that's kind of basically what happened for
you, right? I mean, I've been I, I continued
doing, I did a few different series on YouTube and I've been
doing all the way up until things became hot enough on this
film that we were good to go andI was able to jump over to.
Can I ask you how many shorts did you make of the Backroom
series? I don't know the number, it's
like 3 hours or so currently of it.

(30:27):
So it's enough of it's like it'slike a bit where it's like async
has an ARC and then there's a few like there's like 3 videos
that aren't from that perspective but are kind of like
the first short where so. Then OK, I I need to ask this,
at what point during any of thisprocess did you eventually say
to yourself or thought to yourself that, hey, one day I
could potentially turn this intoa feature film?
Well, I mean, it was I, I, I, I,I put out those shorts in

(30:51):
January of 2022 or I started doing it.
The first short went out in in January 7th.
It was like less than a month later that I started getting my
first emails from anyone in the industry.
I had no interaction with anyonein the industry ever like prior
to that point. So I was definitely, I was
caught off guard. I was very cautious and paranoid

(31:12):
because I was like, I've grown up seeing just like so many
beloved IP just get torn to shreds by, you know, random
suits in the industry who grab an IP, take it, pulverize it by
giving it to some writer who knows nothing about the
property. And then when it's dead and, and
everyone hates the movie and it was, you know, not maybe a
worthwhile adventure, but but I so I was like cautious of that.
I had that in my head and it waslike assuming OK, if I don't

(31:34):
find something really helpful, that's what it's going to be.
So I met with a lot of people and it was like it turned into
like no meetings ever. And then suddenly in February I
think every single day, every weekday had like 3 meetings like
generals with. So it really happened that
quickly. Almost instantly it was like a
binary, like it switched on. So that's incredible.
And, and I Atomic Monster was one of the first or it was like

(31:56):
within the first. I think it's like the second
week of that probably right. And then I met with 21 laps as
well. And, and I, I did like, I, I
remember being conflicted and I forget the exact order of
things, but, but then, but then there was you guys came together
and together, yeah. And then I talked to all you
guys together and that was sort of like you guys solved the
conundrum I was having 'cause I liked, I liked Atomic and I'm
21. And then boom, they decided they

(32:17):
want to do the thing together. So.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, listen, we you know,
credit to you because, you know,we saw the potential in it and
and we felt like, you know, we wanted to work with you.
We're like, you know, we we we saw, you know, like the kind of
brain that you have, the kind ofcreativity that you have.
And we definitely saw the potential that you have to kind
of take this project and make itsomething bigger, right?
Like, you know, kind of break itinto the future war and and

(32:39):
yeah. And so, you know, between, you
know, us at Atomic Monster and 21 last, we're like, let's
collaborate, let's collaborate and the more the merrier.
Thanks for doing that. What?
Can do with this, yeah. So, so I'm glad to hear from
your perspective how that. Came together.
I mean, like, basically like I was thinking under the terms of
just like there are unknown unknowns everywhere.
So I'm just going to make sure Idon't do anything without like

(33:00):
quadruple checking. And, and so I was very thorough
about like, you know, beginning a process with you guys.
And it was, I mean, it was just very, I felt it was very
positive and I felt like it was what I was looking for and
that's cool. What I was looking for and, and
was, was really like backrooms on YouTube is very creatively
fulfilling for me. And I will do it.
I can, I will do more in the future.
And I I'm not like leaving YouTube by any means, but I

(33:22):
that's great. But, but, but it is limited.
Like it came about because I think it's like what you were
saying a moment ago with, you know, the accessibility of
YouTube and film making and whatnot.
Is that like I, I like I found when maybe what I would advise,
although I'm not, I don't feel like I'm quite a place to give
advice yet. I maybe should let this film
come out and then like wait a year or two before I start

(33:42):
saying anything. No man, you can't always give
advice. I I, I feel like in the short
period of time you've experienced a lot.
Yeah, right. It's it's been I can you can
speak to your I can give. Anecdotes and I can give.
Exactly. And then people can kind of
like, you know, latch onto whatever it's.
Because almost the first thing Iwould say is like the thing I've
learned the most is like what worked for one person.
Like don't expect it to work foryou in a way, unless it's like a

(34:04):
universal truth or something like it's, it's kind of like it
feels like the most simple thingyou do have to follow is, is I
think what I managed to do, whether or not I realized it
with the backroom stuff and withwhat I was doing on YouTube is
like I found a rough thing that I could achieve.
It's like, what can I do with free software on a laptop in
blender and a bit of after effects touch up.

(34:25):
Like what can I do there with noextra anything, no live action
shooting, no actors, no like what just me behind a
microphone. Like what can I do there?
And then what's the if I just keep working on that, refining
that until it becomes like the best version of itself.
It becomes like a unique productthat I just had cut that I just
said product. Oh my God.
Dude, this is. What happens when I go to LA?

(34:46):
Yeah, I absorb. The language hell it starts, my
friend, I know. I know This is why this.
Business for one movie. And now?
No, I'm kidding. Yeah, This is why I'm going to
to the woods after I'd say it. Listen.
Like this. But this is all great stuff.
Because I had to take it to the market and we had to make this
movie. So objectively, it is a product.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean.
It's an item. It's an item.
So much money involved, you know, like, listen, as artistic

(35:08):
as we want to be, as much of like Otis as we want to be, we
have to think about, you know, like the studios that are
financing our movies, the investors that are financing our
movies. And we do kind of have to
treated, you know, to some degree with that respect.
And the key here is, you know, for someone like myself who's
been in been doing this for a while now is like, how do you
somewhat appease what the investors are looking for, but

(35:31):
yet making it your own? So every movie that you make
should be personal to you. You know, like it doesn't matter
how commercial it is, you know, like the, the big film makers
that I truly respect or, or filmmakers, small film makers as
well. But from the likes of your
Steven Spielberg to Tim Burton to whomever right they, they're
able to play in that commercial world, but yet every movie is

(35:52):
super, super personal to them. And that is how I approach with
all my movies. And I think that's who you are
as well. I, I feel like whatever movies
you make here onwards, everything would be highly
important for you. Every film you make will speak
to you on some level that you want to talk about.
You know that that's good to have.
So you know, you're just going to be mindful.

(36:13):
You, you know, as as a director now making these kind of movies,
you kind of have to wear 2 hats,right?
Yeah, what I feel is like, again, I'm going back to like
because I do get full creative satisfaction of doing stuff on
YouTube that is equal to what I do here.
There's almost no difference. It's just a, it's a bit of a
different process and I socialize a lot more when
working like like I just did on Backrooms.

(36:34):
But, but I like in terms of fulfillment, it's it's identical
and I, I do make a living off ofYouTube like it's, you know,
it's, it's I don't need much. I have a desk and I have a
laptop that's amazing. I stand in an empty room at my
desk. There's something I want to ask
before we get further down here,OK 'cause like, this is so great
to kind of hear talk about, you know, the history and how you
started all this. You know, obviously you started

(36:55):
very young doing all this stuff,right?
Your parents, what do they thinkabout all of this?
You know, when you were just starting out and then eventually
now you know, you're making yourfirst feature film in Hollywood.
How do they feel? They must be super proud.
And they, they must feel, you know, like I, I don't know, it
must be surreal for them as wellto see, you know, the trajectory

(37:15):
in the journey that their son have taken.
Yeah, I, I, I don't want to speak for them, but I, but I
would, they are proud and and they're, I mean, my parents are
both really great people and have obviously like.
They've been very. Supportive, They've been so
supportive at like every point in my life and have always like,
you know, helped this come aboutin a way, like by just by not

(37:35):
doing it, like just by not beingin the way.
I think it's like being you can be two hands on and you can be
two hands off. And I think they were just like,
they found the right balance. They found the right balance.
Yeah. And you know, like I, they, they
get what's going on and they, you know, like they're not in
the industry, so it's not like they get it, get it.
But but what do you live? What do they live?

(37:56):
Where do you live? Me and all of them, we live in
Northern California, like SonomaCounty like.
Oh, OK. That's where you're from.
OK. Yeah, like Sonoma Marin and I,
you know, like, like they get it.
And like, I talk to them like once a week or so.
Like I'll, I'll call them individually and, and talk to my
parents and try to talk to my younger brother.

(38:16):
And it's been hard on this film just because of how busy it's
been to like, stay in contact with everyone in my life.
When you're making a movie, you're pretty much isolated from
the rest of the world. Yeah, whatever happens.
I don't mind. I like I usually am this way
like so it's fine. But it's for people like us.
It's actually not a bad thing. No it.
It works quite well. It's been like 10% more than
than I'm maybe used to though. So it's been, it's been a

(38:38):
little, a little more on the intense side.
But like, again, I'm, I'm here for that.
But yeah, they, they, I try to, you know, loop them in and
they're going to be coming to the premiere when we do that
next week. And it's going to be, you know,
a whole lot of fun upfront. And you know, they've, they've,
you know, they're, they're familiar with the film.
Like I, they got to, they were, I was showing them everything we
were doing as we were building up to this.

(39:00):
And, and so, you know, they and my dad's always like on YouTube
looking at like reaction videos to my stuff.
And he's constantly, constantly like he knows everything about.
It that's what they should be doing as.
Parents. Yeah, yeah.
So, OK, let I want to talk aboutyour feature film experience,
right. So you've transitioned from
these shorts into, you know, theprocess into making a feature

(39:21):
film through this pretty big infrastructure, right?
You know, of making this featurewith, you know, a proper film
crew. Up until now, you've pretty much
done everything yourself, right?And, and your actors are your
friends. But now you're moving into the
Super big world and into the bigleague, so to speak.
And, and you're working with professional crew, professional

(39:42):
cast actors, you know, what was that like?
What was it like for you at the very start of that initial
process? Was it overwhelming or did you
fully embrace it, or was it a little bit of everything?
So unlike some things that I've mentioned in our conversation,
like that wasn't abrupt, like there was a, a very gentle lead

(40:02):
in to that that made sense over over a good period.
And so, you know, I, I went up to Vancouver to do a test shoot
in April. So that would have just happened
over a year ago. And that was my first time
working with, you know, a crew that is not like, my personal
friends from like, high school or something.
And so that, that I think I had questions in my head, but I

(40:23):
think it was like easy enough because it was a, it was a
skeleton crew. It was pretty small and we were
doing like a very minimal lean test shoot.
And I think there was something I found which was like, you
know, I had it in my head wondering, you know, all these
notions of what a director has to be and what I have to be
facilitating. What do I, what do I not know?
I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming there's a million things I do

(40:43):
not know. And I'm thinking of all the ways
that could poison the process. But what?
But what if? You don't know could be a good
thing, right? Or Or you don't know what you
don't know. Yeah, but but exactly like, I
don't know what I don't know. So like I'm, I'm like, you know,
doing what I can't. But I'm like, I'm realizing like
as I'm getting there and we're starting and it's like like,
wait, that's all, that's all youcan, that's all anyone can do.
That's like literally what I'm just, I go here, I know what I

(41:04):
want. I don't know why I'm
overthinking that part. I just need to tell the people
around me what I want in a concise manner and explain why
we want it so they can also be personally motivated to achieve
that thing. And then we're just doing that
in a few different ways. And then we, the day's done and
we got what we wanted and boom. And then we do it again.
And like, I, I guess I just, I, I think I did overthink it
upfront. And again, those were, that was

(41:25):
just the test shoot. So it was a bit of AI guess I'll
jump to when we were going to day one.
It was the same kind of thoughtscoming back again.
It was like, OK, that was small before.
Like what if, what if it's goingto be so many people now that I
haven't met like during pre production, I got to work with
all these department heads. And, and you're saying like how
working with my, all the actors of my friends before, like I
would say everyone that I workedwith at that point, by the time
I went to camera were my friendsnow.

(41:46):
And, and, and like, right, that's great.
It's cool. The the cast and, and crew and,
and, and everyone is like, it was a very friendly vibe.
Across the board. Good.
Yeah. So it was a collaborative
experience for you. So, yeah.
So you felt like you know what you were asking for.
People kind of step up and kind of help to deliver the vision of
what you were. Yeah, like so, so we went to
when, when I went up to Vancouver and we got greenlit a

(42:08):
few days into, we had like a fewdays of prep and then we needed
to get greenlit before we could continue.
And but when that was happening,you know, I was, I was meeting
all the heads of all the departments and, and we, we had
kind of met before a little bit.They all know each other and
they're all friends. And it's like part of like, you
know, a great group that that sort of Chris, the producer up
in Vancouver where I work closely with and has sort of

(42:29):
like really helped bring together over a good period of
time. And, and so they're all very
tight in it and it's pretty great up there.
But I. So so just to clarify, you found
the pre production process of planning the movie and and kind
of like laying laying it out andtalking to the crew and you
know, talking to producers and locations and sets and stuff

(42:52):
like that. You found all that pretty
smoothly. The the actual process it.
Was it was smoothly, I mean, it wasn't easy, but it was, it was
smoothly and easy. We were getting making films.
Yeah, it was time consuming and like used all my brain power
each day, but was like we got through it did.
You find that at any time that the the sort of the bigger

(43:14):
machination of, of film making that kind of kind of like went
against how you used to do things.
No, no. OK, good.
No. It felt like it identical
scaling of of what I normally do.
That's great. Like the sets, when I get there,
I mean, I brought my computer with me, my laptop and, and like

(43:35):
all the sets that we built like because our production office
was on the sound stage or like right outside of it.
And, and so we would like, we had these four big stages that
we could build on and we were working out like, you know, like
our construction budget at the time and everything.
And I and the scripture, like wewere iterating on the script as
we were going through prep and stuff.
So some things were changing andso everything was changing a

(43:57):
little bit. And it's too hard to describe
the exact order in which things changed.
Like one change would retroactively affect the thing
that changed that change and what not.
But but like the sets are all like I made them all in blender,
like I designed all the sets andand it's pretty much one for one
for what we have in the movie. Like those all exist in the the
blender files. And I, you know, like I would
cross reference and talk with Jeremy Cox, the DPI worked with

(44:20):
who's great. And you know, like I would kind
of like I was showing him how touse a bit of Blender so we could
like send files back and forth if he wanted to tweak a few
things to, you know, on the day,build the sets to accommodate
for shots that we wanted 'cause we were shot listing in Blender
as well. So basically you were doing that
like previous, right? Yeah.
It was previous on everything. Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic.

(44:40):
So you can you pretty much previous the whole movie.
That's what I mean when I say like, I, I, I need like the
variable control up front. So I know I I like knowing every
single bit of what we're going to do and let everything be
deliberate. Your process and your, the way
your mind works, you know where you need to be in control.
You need to kind of like be prepared.
Really helps with, as you can see the film making process,

(45:02):
right? Like there's nothing worse for a
director on a film set or there's nothing worse for a film
crew in a production is a director that is not prepared.
Yeah, yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible.
If they don't know what they want, they don't know how to
achieve it, that's really draining on a production.
And so Someone Like You, it's a it's a it's a breath of fresh

(45:22):
air to come in so prepared, knowing exactly the world, what
they want, what they want the characters to be, what they
want, the shot, the scenes to feel like.
That goes a long way. And I think, you know, I think
that helps with why the transition for you was kind of
pretty, pretty smooth going. Yeah, I, I would also learn just
like, you know, sing the praisesof all, all the people we worked

(45:44):
with because like everyone in all of the departments sort of
like genuinely like incredibly nice, really productive and
really focused people that that obviously would like give them
infinite credit on this. Like like really the sets, like
I, I've made them in Blender, but like, you know, even the
construction crew who like they were like tirelessly going at
this thing. It's like 30,000 square feet of
of backgrounds we built it's. Incredible.

(46:04):
The set looks amazing. Yeah, they look and but again,
you know, the the crew really wants to, you know, help you
bring your vision to life, right.
And so like we trusted you because, you know, this movie
is, you know, it is an alter driven film.
And so like, so it's kind of great that that everyone trusted
you and and wants to help you bring all that, you know, to

(46:25):
fruition. Yeah, and, and it looks amazing.
Very generous of you. Guys, you know, hey, man, No,
seriously. Yeah, we, we, you know, we take
our lead from someone like yourself.
And I want to talk about what was it like, you know,
collaborating with with Oz Osgood.
He's great. Yeah.
How was he like on? This, yeah.
So it was before, it was after the test shoot, it was before we

(46:48):
went to get green light, like before we went up to Vancouver
for the long stay, for the long haul.
And I met because Chris works closely with Oz and Oz is like
basically at every step of the way.
I. Mean Oz is a producer, just to
explain, he's a producer. Oz good Perkins.
He's a producer. He's a director in his own right
as well, but he's a producer here on on the film with us.

(47:09):
Yeah, He was writing his next film while, like, we were in
prep on this. And so he'd be like just
hovering around the entire time,just like hanging out and.
Like a Big Brother. Yeah, to some degree, right?
I mean, yeah. And he's, he's great And, and we
would like, I know, like when I,when I first got there, he's
like, we would just like every Friday we'd just go to a Little

(47:29):
Theatre and like watch a, a movie that would like help for
the film. It's like, I remember that when
we first got there, we just likewent and rented out a theatre
and just like watched 2001 on the, on the, which was like a
lot of fun. But then we, we basically like,
like he, he was very helpful. I think in because there's a
certain level of, of change and iteration that went on with, you

(47:51):
know, the, the script and, and getting it right for the project
that I've, you know, I've put itonline over the years and people
are so specific about like I, I think maybe that's not always
taking into account. Actually, I know it's not taking
into account because it's been something I've had to sort of
fight for a little bit along theway in, in like a healthy
manner. It's like reasonable why it
wouldn't be considered because it's, it's, it's a bit insane

(48:11):
when I say it out loud, but like, because it, it's a very
like, it's not just a fan base thing.
It's not my fan base. It's not a group of people.
It's kind of a prevalent mindsetthat has come from, I think my
generation who has grown up withthe Internet, a lot of the same
Youtubers and a lot of the same mentalities around media
deconstruction. And it's there's been this

(48:32):
notion that when it comes to like Internet driven horror,
especially horror is the main target for this.
But anything that is mysterious or horror driven and comes from
the Internet is like, OK, so that means it's got to be
riddled with Easter eggs. And those Easter eggs are in
crucial to the plot. And like the plot, the true
story is lying under the surface.
There's like a there's a meta level to this thing.

(48:53):
There's like you can zoom in allthese things.
There's like the expectation is there's a lot of rich, really
specific information and, and, and you know, I knew that
because I'm a part of that groupof people who think that.
And, and I'm used to projects that give me that level of like
engagement and depth and, and like growing up with that.
So, so when I'm making the backroom's web series, I'm

(49:13):
designing it as such. And, and when you know, a, a
object or like a light switch ora pillar or something moves over
a few feet to the right, it's not because, oh, we, we had to
move it there because of like some logistical thing or like we
had to rebuild the set and therewas a pillar there.
So we had to account for like a slight shift.
It's like, no, it, it has to be because of the narrative reason,
because the building shifted in some way.
And that means something that'llget addressed later on.

(49:35):
So people can kind of catch things like that.
I made the, it's not a mistake. I love it to death, but it's
like I made the deliberate decision to let audiences know
that those little things aren't random and that they can expect
anything they catch. Like it puts them on guard that
like there could be a lot of things they don't know are
important until later. And so sometimes you need

(49:57):
multiple viewings to catch little.
Yeah, like Easter eggs here. The stuff I make on YouTube is
built to be. And I would say even the movie,
it's built to be paused and analyzed.
It's not meant to. It's it.
It's inherently made for that. That is nuts.
And I think that, you know, trying to bring that to this
level involves asking for a lot of things that seem unproductive

(50:18):
to people who. Aren't trivial or weird even
right? Yeah, it's like, why?
Is he doing that? You know, like, and we didn't
win every battle because it's impossible because we don't have
the resources to paint out everytiny cable and conduit that
aren't exactly from 1990. And like the fire sprinkler
models aren't exactly the model that would have been used in
this type of piping in this year.
And stuff like, and I know it's this is what I mean is like,

(50:41):
come on, guys. Like give give the film some
slack but but I know my audience.
Listen your ITV page, you need to give the little the goof
section something for them to write about, right?
Yeah, but but anyway, I love himto death and and I think that,
you know, that synchronizing, you know, everyone on that like
took a minute just to explain why we had to do it.

(51:03):
But but then we got, we did a lot, we got a lot of mileage in
that area. So can I ask, so knowing you
have to serve as a lot of that kind of thinking and, and
partially because that's who youare as well.
Did you, was that a fine balancebetween that and A and a, you
know, like a more traditional storytelling script that you
guys had to write to get it out there?
You know, 'cause, you know, thisis not just little vignettes of

(51:25):
moments, right? You know, like you have to tell
a, a, a pretty straightforward narrative to some degree, right?
Like that has a start, you know,you know, at 0 mark and has to
end it an hour and a half or twohours into the movie, right?
Was that a? Was that a bit of a process for
you? No, I I think like the YouTube
series knew what it was and it wasn't meant to be a substitute
for something structurally similar to a feature.

(51:46):
Film. So you're saying as a feature
you approach it different to howyou approach your?
Definitely. I think the shorts have their
arcs. They're very vignette driven,
like you said, where you get a lot of these pieces that, you
know, for people online, it makes sense to put these things
together and then the the story comes through repeated viewing
and stuff or even 1 viewing, you'll get it.
But it's like not maybe not appreciated to his fully degree

(52:07):
fullest degree because it's it'ssort of like a like a like, I
guess a more concept driven version of the OR perspective
into the story where it's not quite, you know, the hope.
I think I meant to say this earlier, but like, you know,
with the desire to do like, did I want to do a film with
backgrounds? Who's like yes.
And the goal would have been to like sort of get the foot in the

(52:29):
door to, you know, get audienceswho are not up to speed on on my
version of the backgrounds and who are not, you know, quite.
I think the idea would have beento make something that worked
for my audience, that had directcontinuity with what I've made
and. People have never heard of it.
Yeah. Have no idea what it is.
And and so it could be a first step that kind of does the same
thing that first short did in terms of sort of like opening

(52:52):
the door to it. And then the real like thing
when I talk, when I exactly whenI talk about having something in
the like the ending that I want to reverse engineer from or like
have that moment I really want to get to, it's like, that's not
that's like like I there's so much stuff I love every step
along the way. But like this is all driving in
a direction where I would say the, you know, the material that
I is planned and is written out is like it goes outside the

(53:14):
confines of the YouTube series and it goes outside the confines
of the film. These things lay inside a, a
broader, I guess, like tree of the of the narrative, right?
So. Which leads me to your cast,
right? This is the first set of, I
would say, professional actors that you've worked with and and
So what was it like working withChiwetel and Renata?

(53:35):
I mean, it was. And everyone else in the movie.
Yes. And everyone, yeah, everyone was
great across the board. And I was saying earlier about
them being my friends. Like, do you mean that They're
lovely, lovely people. And I think it was like, like in
the cases like when we're casting Clark and he's like, he
was like, I, I knew I'd seen some of his stuff, like the
stuff he's directed and, and I, you know, I, I like his brain.
I was very curious about like, you know, talking to him and,

(53:58):
and I did, he's great. They're both, they're both
great. But I met, I met with him first.
He was the first person that we were really going out to.
And I, I mean, he was the first and only person we, we spoke to
about, about the character, 'cause I, I, I really got it in
my head that like, after that conversation I had with him and,
and seeing the things he was curious about with the project
and with the back rooms in general.
And, you know, just the general,you know, understanding of

(54:22):
culturally what the Backrooms is, where it comes from and what
it needs to achieve to be a meaningful addition to anything.
It's just like, OK, so he gets it.
And you've got a curiosity that's like, I found this with
Renata very much so. As well as like I like when I
can tell they've got like the people I'm working with have
like a personal curiosity they're trying to fulfill with

(54:43):
this thing like some some reasonthat they're something they're
trying to find beyond just like my agent set this up and I want
to like let's do a horror film. It's like not that at all.
It was very much like there was something almost spiritual or
profound about. It Yeah, they're bringing their
personal life and story into the.
Character and which? Is what you always want.
That's all that's exactly what you want.
And I just found that I enjoyed the conversations we were

(55:05):
having. I, I mean, I, I guess it's like
I, I give it, given the level ofinteriority needed for like some
of the stuff with, with, with, with Renata.
And I knew they would be fits for like the pieces we needed
them to fulfil. And then obviously once we
actually went to production, it was, it was mostly the case of
they made, they made my job supremely easy, right.

(55:28):
But, but it was a, a, you know, a good case of just like, like
they would, you know, hang out like behind the camera, they
wouldn't go off. They would like, you know, be
around and just like chat with people.
And it was like very good-natured and fun.
And, and I think it helped like,again, having those sets that
were like there and it wasn't CGand you could like walk through
them and not see the blue screens and not see it.
You could like, walk through several rooms before you realize

(55:48):
you're on a set. That's really cool and.
So it's like I was trying to provide as like answers to any
question they could possibly have and have know where the
walls are and basically let things still be fluid while like
very strictly knowing what can and can't happen.
So that's, you know, we, we stayon a very tight course
narratively. So we arrive at the right spot.
That's really cool. Yeah.

(56:08):
And they you basically use theircharacters as as a way in into
the world, especially for peoplethat that are not familiar with
this world. And, and they basically, you
know, they, they, they play everyday people, right, that get
caught in this crazy surreal backroom, you know, liminal
space horror, so to speak, right?

(56:30):
And, and they really kind of captured the, the idea that you
know, that these two guys, you know, two people that are, that
are, that are like stumbling into this supernatural world and
not knowing what is going on. And they have to, and the more
they dig into it, the more they discover how this particular
space reflects themselves, right, their personality.

(56:50):
And I think that's really great,you know, between yourself and
the screenwriter. What you guys shape and create
it in terms of a story to try and bring in audiences that that
are not familiar with with this particular world?
Yeah, I'm glad it came through in that way.
Definitely. Like that was a pretty huge
focus and I think it's kind of crucial to the project.
So we don't have like a insane. It's definitely more of a

(57:14):
scenario where the risk would beputting too much lore and
information into a single film rather than trying to scale up
like a a short that's not built for a feature into something
larger. So it was like, and so I think
we trimmed out like, or we're rather focused on the right most
foundational elements of what made the idea work, the
backgrounds as a general idea and you know, found a, a way and
that does not involve or or necessitate a understanding of

(57:37):
like what where this YouTube series goes, but it's still
relates to it in some way. One of the things I do want to
talk to you about is you know, your your shorts were made for
YouTube. And so people generally for the
most part watched it on their iPhones, on the computer, on the
iPad. But now here you are making a
theatrical version of the feature film, right?

(57:59):
And so the feature film version for the theatrical big screen
experience. How do you feel about that
firstly? And, and how do you think that
would translate from the tiny little screen to freaking IMAX?
We, we all make movies in computer these days.
It doesn't matter what the platform is, right?
Yeah, there's so much more Polish that goes into this and
like we do like billion iterations of each shot and like

(58:20):
constantly refining and all that.
But but, but like I have, I would say that this film, you
know, being able to, and this iswhat I wanted from the beginning
with this whole process, The thing that I hope to get out of
this was being able to, you know, I fulfilled the niche of
the found footage work online because that's what I could do
by myself. But what I wanted to be able to
do is be able to have stuff thatgot out of that and was more

(58:41):
human centric and more getting into the character work that
could be portrayed by actual human actors who who, you know,
like were there for that. And you know, this in this film,
we finally had the resources to attack the concept of the
backgrounds through that lens, which has never happened before.
And I think we get to see like, you know, a much a far more
personal and intimate version ofthis story, which sort of like I

(59:04):
would say comes second in the conversation of like people
understand the backgrounds. Like enough online at this point
that it's like, and now this, it's like this is the next or
this is the slight advancement of the idea.
And we're we're seeing a slightly more, I'd say a slight,
a slightly more thoughtful and elevated version of that.
That gets us to a place where weactually get to have a distinct

(59:24):
relationship between individualsand the environment, rather than
letting the relationship be largely between.
Yes, there's a character always behind the camera, but more
often than not, audiences come away with the feeling of like
I'm kind of the person behind, like they kind of relate to the
person behind the camera in a way that is like almost more
like playing a game or watching a game play through or
something, which is not something I deliberately cater

(59:46):
to. I just have observed that's
something that happens and now they can see the faces.
It's so simple, but like actually being able to give the
time to these characters in a more direct way and and let
their context in life in the world outside of their
relationship with the backgrounds giving that weight.
I think we'll go a long way feel.
That what you're saying here nowtranslate to the big screen

(01:00:08):
experience. Oh.
Yeah, yeah, no, without a doubt.I mean, it's like it finally
gives emotional context. Like it allows everything that
we build with these human beings.
Like, then is transposed when they interact with the
backgrounds and, and gives the backgrounds of and inherently
without the backrooms having to.It's the same location that
stays pretty much unchanged. That whole element, the complex.
But now it's larger than life. Because, because of the human

(01:00:30):
element, because of how it's framed through the eyes of these
people who, who you can relate to, which you didn't have
before. So yeah, yeah, I'd say that's
probably the and there's also just some cool set pieces.
So excited to show. Though some big set pieces yeah,
that you can kind of like, I guess you know how you were
saying you you were talking about like just, you know, the
fans or, you know the people from the world just seeing

(01:00:50):
little details there, right, Details in the world.
So like, I guess you know, when it's blown up so huge, big, you
know, you can actually pick up little things that you may not
actually experience or have noticed on your phone or on your
computer, right? So.
My my audience would notice anything and everything but but
yes. There's.
Undoubtedly there is stuff and it's great because you can't
pause it in the theatre. So for a select time, you'll

(01:01:12):
you'll maybe have to watch it a couple times to find to find
everything that's in there because there's a lot that's
cool. Well, Kate, this has been
amazing, man. It's been amazing.
Thank you dude. Thank you for having a chat with
me about this. I love the movie.
I think you guys all did a fantastic job and the movie is
great. And I really think you captured
the spirit of what you know you did with the shorts and, and

(01:01:33):
here we have the the feature film version.
And so you must be excited to have people out there see this
movie when it finally comes out.Tremendously excited you like
thank you so much for just supporting us for the time you
have. And it's like we're talking,
we're talking like, like, you know, like how this happened.
But but you've been around supporting this since the
beginning, like literally the first month that any of this was
happening, we came into contact and it's, it's just been a great

(01:01:57):
partnership. Guys, so this has been awesome.
Thank you man. Thank you man.
This is lovely.