April 20, 2025 • 12 mins
Former High Commissioner to the UK, Sir Lockwood Smith, joins Tim Beveridge to discuss Luxon’s trip to the UK.
The Prime Minister has headed to London to meet with his counterpart Kier Starmer, before heading to Türkiye to commemorate ANZAC day.
Smith talks to Tim Beveridge about what Luxon needs to achieve in the UK, our relationship to the US, defence and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
dB and right we're into it. So the Prime Minister's
on his way to the UK, where he'll meet with
his counterparts Keir Starmer to talk trade systems and defense.
It comes as our exports grew by twenty percent in
the UK last year and the defense situation in Europe,
of course, is constantly evolving. And here to discuss the
(00:27):
importance of Luxon's visit as former High Commissioner to the
UK and former Speaker of the House, a bunch of
other things. Actually he's done at all. It's Lockwood Smith, Lockwood, Good,
good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good afternoon to you. You know, way back when I
was Minister of Tourism in the late nineties, I tried
to get the East trading laws changed, and here we are,
what twenty five years later. I tried to buy a
radio for my sister who's in hospital at the moment,
and of course here in Auckland couldn't buy a radio anywhere. Good,
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Have they actually just done that? Before we get dive
into it, have we actually changed them at all? Over
the last few years. I think we've probably had the
odd little tweak hair.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We there's been the odd little tweak. I think some
councils now can allow their shops to open on Easter Sunday,
and but Auckland, as I understand, it doesn't allow that
at the moment. And we certainly couldn't find a shop
opened by a radio today.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Blimey, well, let's let's get into it. Let's get into
the knitting. What does Luxon need to achieve? Do you
think while he's in the UK, what would your goals
be if you were him?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think, you know, we shouldn't be looking for any
big sort of great headline. I think it's more about
just reinforcing our very very close relationship. It's fascinating, you know,
since Brexit, since the UK left the EU, New Zealand's
had a very significant role in the UK's sort of
(01:54):
development of its it's global trade strategy, smart global trade strategy,
because they recognize that New Zealand has done a remarkable
job of the last I guess since we basically developed
our bipartisan approach to trade, and I give a lot
of credit to Mike Moore for that way back in
the in the eighties, and we've had a bipartisan approach
(02:16):
pretty much to trade and have done remarkably well. And
so since Brexit, I mean, the UK appointed as their
chief trade negotiator one of our top trade negotiators, a
guy called Crawford Faulkner now Sir Crawford Faukner. They united
him and Crawford has done a great job for the
UK while you know, while I was High Commissioner up there,
(02:37):
I did a lot of preparatory work on getting their
farming organizations to not be so fearful of free of
trade if you like. And of course when I left
the UK, the British government appointed me to their Trade
and Agriculture Commission that first advised them formerly on trade
and agriculture policy, and then I helped them get their
(02:59):
free trade egrammers with both Australia and New Zealand and
helped get them into CPTPP. So we've had a you know,
a really significant role to play post Brexit in the UK,
and the UK has really stepped up. You know, the
UK is now a major player in global trade thinking
now and it didn't used to be when it was
part of the EU, but it is now, and so
(03:22):
the Prime ministers are spending time with their Prome Minister
just to quietly and sensibly think about, you know, how
we handle the current challenging situation. I think it's pretty smart.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I was actually wondering, does the the international climate
and the change in it, I guess, and we're talking
about America and it's involvement in or non involvement in things,
does it mean that it might actually be easier to
do business business with some folks given that American has
America has become so problematic, I think.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We need to be careful in predicting where America is
going to end up. I think, you know, they had
they had good reason to, I think, be troubled by
some of where trade had got to, you know, following
the you know, the great Uruguay round late in the
mid nineties there and the reduction in tariffs globally, some
(04:17):
not so good things went on behind the border, as
we say, you know, in various markets. While tariffs were reduced,
other sort of regulations and distortions were imposed in the
marketplace that actually made trade difficult. And the United States,
I think is has suffered from that a bit, and
they have worries about you know, some Chinese government practices
(04:39):
if you like, in that regard, and I think that's
what really got the American administration pretty anti with respect
to free trade. And so I'm involved in another trade
think tank that's trying to encourage a different approach to
dealing with these anti competitive market distortions as they're called,
(05:01):
rather than just global tariffs across the board, through an
approach that discourages countries from putting in place regulations that
damage trade behind the border.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I think those stories have got lost of but I
guess that perspective because of the you know, the sledgehammer
approach of Trump, I guess, isn't it. So we've lost
the perspective on what tariffs were and went on and
actually where the fairness sat exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And so a group I'm involved are trying to publish
some stuff on that to help people see that actually,
while tariffs have come down, there been some other market
distortions that have caused real negative impact on trade. So
discussing how we can, in a more nuanced way, if
you like, deal with some of these market distortions globally,
(05:51):
I think is a useful, very useful thing. But as
our foreign men, so as Whinston Peters has said it's
got to be done with a cool head. You know,
there's no I think it's not wise right now to
be jumping up and down and it's not a time
for thinking there are going to be any great movements
(06:13):
in the next.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What did you make of those comments? Because I mean,
luck since the Prime Minister I can talk to leaders,
I mean he is the prime minister. Should I say
full stop? Does he need to be sort of cowtowing
to Winston when he wants to go off and try
and forward some new relationships for.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
A fair point, You're quite right, and I think it's
important that the Prime Minister is involved in discussions with
other leaders on these matters, how most sensibly to handle
them to minimize damage globally, because if all of this
is handled badly, the damage will be very significant globally.
(06:49):
And so and I've got confidence that our prime minister
has a cool head and good knowledge of business. What
aazing thing that I've been Sorry, no, you go. Yeah.
An interesting thing I've been involved in is advising another
The think tank i'm involved in operates in London and Washington,
(07:11):
d C. And they've been looking at research on what's
the biggest impediment to growth, to economic growth and economic
well being if you like. And it's interesting tariffs aren't
actually the biggest problem. One of the biggest problems our
research is showing is actually domestic market regulation. Excessive domestic
(07:32):
market regulation can have the biggest negative impact on economic
well being, and probably three to four times greater than
low level tariffs if you like. But of course we
don't want high level tariff.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
No, we don't well know, and we'll leave that to
the Chinese for that one. Hey, that's one thing for
us to look at what we would like to get,
and I just gives keep the foot on the pedal
with our relationship with the UK. What do you think
they want from us or would want? What do you
think they're spectavers?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I think they see New Zealand as a really close friend.
And you know, our constitutional arrangements are so similar and
post Brexit, our approach to trade is very very similar.
And just as New Zealand needs to be able to
(08:28):
access markets globally, so does the UK. And the UK
is very keen to I mean, just as we're working
on a free trade agreement with India right now, so
to is the UK. I mean, I'm no longer serving
on that. I step down from their Trade and Agriculture
Commission at the end of last year. And yet for
(08:49):
a while there I had the first about fifteen chapters
of their free trade agreement with India, which are confidential,
of course, But the UK is working on exactly the
same trade agreement approach with India as we are, and
so there's a lot we're doing together.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Is there specific trade related progress that her Crystal Fluxen
is going to be looking to make in the UK
while he's there.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I'm not party to that, and I couldn't comment on that.
One thing that I hope this current turmoil may encourage
is maybe for the EU to even look a little
more positively towards greater trade liberalization. And because if you
look at the trade agreements that the UK has been
(09:33):
doing post Brexit, they are rather more liberal than the
EU has tended to do, and this turmoil may encourage
the EU to just think a little more about the
benefits to them of free and open trade as well.
One of the interesting challenges these days is componentry crosses
(09:54):
board is so frequently these days, how you administer high
tariffs and this modern day and age is going to
be an interesting challenge because componentory for manufacturing criss crosses
borders all the time, and just administering some high tariff
is going to be quite an extensive process.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
What about the security side of things? Is there anything
that Starma will be looking for us? And he's been
leading the charge in support of Ukraine. What discussions would
you anticipate they're going to be having about that?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And of course, given our size, New Zealand's also been
heavily involved in supporting Ukraine, and New Zealand has i
think forces involved in training Ukrainian soldiers in the UK
and so I'm sure they will be discussing that because
that is of major concern. I think there's so many
people that it's a very challenging situation. Goodness knows what
(10:57):
the US President Trump's going to do. He's starting to
make noises about washing his hands of the whole thing,
and yet of you know, the encouraging thing, of course,
is the talk of this minerals agreement with Ukraine, which
would of course tie the US in more with Ukraine's future.
But you know, it's a very tricky situation that has
(11:19):
to be handled very diplomatically right at the moment, and
again I'm sure our Prime Minister is perfectly capable of that.
But we have a very close relationship with the UK
through Five Eyes, through our interests in joining OLCUS. You know,
basically the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, you know the
(11:41):
Five Eyes if you like. There's five countries and the
United States and of course a very very closely involved
with each other, and I hope that can continue to
be built on because it's so important.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Good stuff, Hey, Lockwood's so good to have a chat.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
For more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Listen live to news Talks it'd be weekends from three pm,
or follow the pontodcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
dB and right we're into it. So the Prime Minister's
on his way to the UK, where he'll meet with
his counterparts Keir Starmer to talk trade systems and defense.
It comes as our exports grew by twenty percent in
the UK last year and the defense situation in Europe,
of course, is constantly evolving. And here to discuss the
(00:27):
importance of Luxon's visit as former High Commissioner to the
UK and former Speaker of the House, a bunch of
other things. Actually he's done at all. It's Lockwood Smith, Lockwood, Good,
good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good afternoon to you. You know, way back when I
was Minister of Tourism in the late nineties, I tried
to get the East trading laws changed, and here we are,
what twenty five years later. I tried to buy a
radio for my sister who's in hospital at the moment,
and of course here in Auckland couldn't buy a radio anywhere. Good,
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Have they actually just done that? Before we get dive
into it, have we actually changed them at all? Over
the last few years. I think we've probably had the
odd little tweak hair.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We there's been the odd little tweak. I think some
councils now can allow their shops to open on Easter Sunday,
and but Auckland, as I understand, it doesn't allow that
at the moment. And we certainly couldn't find a shop
opened by a radio today.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Blimey, well, let's let's get into it. Let's get into
the knitting. What does Luxon need to achieve? Do you
think while he's in the UK, what would your goals
be if you were him?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think, you know, we shouldn't be looking for any
big sort of great headline. I think it's more about
just reinforcing our very very close relationship. It's fascinating, you know,
since Brexit, since the UK left the EU, New Zealand's
had a very significant role in the UK's sort of
(01:54):
development of its it's global trade strategy, smart global trade strategy,
because they recognize that New Zealand has done a remarkable
job of the last I guess since we basically developed
our bipartisan approach to trade, and I give a lot
of credit to Mike Moore for that way back in
the in the eighties, and we've had a bipartisan approach
(02:16):
pretty much to trade and have done remarkably well. And
so since Brexit, I mean, the UK appointed as their
chief trade negotiator one of our top trade negotiators, a
guy called Crawford Faulkner now Sir Crawford Faukner. They united
him and Crawford has done a great job for the
UK while you know, while I was High Commissioner up there,
(02:37):
I did a lot of preparatory work on getting their
farming organizations to not be so fearful of free of
trade if you like. And of course when I left
the UK, the British government appointed me to their Trade
and Agriculture Commission that first advised them formerly on trade
and agriculture policy, and then I helped them get their
(02:59):
free trade egrammers with both Australia and New Zealand and
helped get them into CPTPP. So we've had a you know,
a really significant role to play post Brexit in the UK,
and the UK has really stepped up. You know, the
UK is now a major player in global trade thinking
now and it didn't used to be when it was
part of the EU, but it is now, and so
(03:22):
the Prime ministers are spending time with their Prome Minister
just to quietly and sensibly think about, you know, how
we handle the current challenging situation. I think it's pretty smart.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I was actually wondering, does the the international climate
and the change in it, I guess, and we're talking
about America and it's involvement in or non involvement in things,
does it mean that it might actually be easier to
do business business with some folks given that American has
America has become so problematic, I think.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We need to be careful in predicting where America is
going to end up. I think, you know, they had
they had good reason to, I think, be troubled by
some of where trade had got to, you know, following
the you know, the great Uruguay round late in the
mid nineties there and the reduction in tariffs globally, some
(04:17):
not so good things went on behind the border, as
we say, you know, in various markets. While tariffs were reduced,
other sort of regulations and distortions were imposed in the
marketplace that actually made trade difficult. And the United States,
I think is has suffered from that a bit, and
they have worries about you know, some Chinese government practices
(04:39):
if you like, in that regard, and I think that's
what really got the American administration pretty anti with respect
to free trade. And so I'm involved in another trade
think tank that's trying to encourage a different approach to
dealing with these anti competitive market distortions as they're called,
(05:01):
rather than just global tariffs across the board, through an
approach that discourages countries from putting in place regulations that
damage trade behind the border.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I think those stories have got lost of but I
guess that perspective because of the you know, the sledgehammer
approach of Trump, I guess, isn't it. So we've lost
the perspective on what tariffs were and went on and
actually where the fairness sat exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And so a group I'm involved are trying to publish
some stuff on that to help people see that actually,
while tariffs have come down, there been some other market
distortions that have caused real negative impact on trade. So
discussing how we can, in a more nuanced way, if
you like, deal with some of these market distortions globally,
(05:51):
I think is a useful, very useful thing. But as
our foreign men, so as Whinston Peters has said it's
got to be done with a cool head. You know,
there's no I think it's not wise right now to
be jumping up and down and it's not a time
for thinking there are going to be any great movements
(06:13):
in the next.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
What did you make of those comments? Because I mean,
luck since the Prime Minister I can talk to leaders,
I mean he is the prime minister. Should I say
full stop? Does he need to be sort of cowtowing
to Winston when he wants to go off and try
and forward some new relationships for.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
A fair point, You're quite right, and I think it's
important that the Prime Minister is involved in discussions with
other leaders on these matters, how most sensibly to handle
them to minimize damage globally, because if all of this
is handled badly, the damage will be very significant globally.
(06:49):
And so and I've got confidence that our prime minister
has a cool head and good knowledge of business. What
aazing thing that I've been Sorry, no, you go. Yeah.
An interesting thing I've been involved in is advising another
The think tank i'm involved in operates in London and Washington,
(07:11):
d C. And they've been looking at research on what's
the biggest impediment to growth, to economic growth and economic
well being if you like. And it's interesting tariffs aren't
actually the biggest problem. One of the biggest problems our
research is showing is actually domestic market regulation. Excessive domestic
(07:32):
market regulation can have the biggest negative impact on economic
well being, and probably three to four times greater than
low level tariffs if you like. But of course we
don't want high level tariff.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
No, we don't well know, and we'll leave that to
the Chinese for that one. Hey, that's one thing for
us to look at what we would like to get,
and I just gives keep the foot on the pedal
with our relationship with the UK. What do you think
they want from us or would want? What do you
think they're spectavers?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I think they see New Zealand as a really close friend.
And you know, our constitutional arrangements are so similar and
post Brexit, our approach to trade is very very similar.
And just as New Zealand needs to be able to
(08:28):
access markets globally, so does the UK. And the UK
is very keen to I mean, just as we're working
on a free trade agreement with India right now, so
to is the UK. I mean, I'm no longer serving
on that. I step down from their Trade and Agriculture
Commission at the end of last year. And yet for
(08:49):
a while there I had the first about fifteen chapters
of their free trade agreement with India, which are confidential,
of course, But the UK is working on exactly the
same trade agreement approach with India as we are, and
so there's a lot we're doing together.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Is there specific trade related progress that her Crystal Fluxen
is going to be looking to make in the UK
while he's there.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I'm not party to that, and I couldn't comment on that.
One thing that I hope this current turmoil may encourage
is maybe for the EU to even look a little
more positively towards greater trade liberalization. And because if you
look at the trade agreements that the UK has been
(09:33):
doing post Brexit, they are rather more liberal than the
EU has tended to do, and this turmoil may encourage
the EU to just think a little more about the
benefits to them of free and open trade as well.
One of the interesting challenges these days is componentry crosses
(09:54):
board is so frequently these days, how you administer high
tariffs and this modern day and age is going to
be an interesting challenge because componentory for manufacturing criss crosses
borders all the time, and just administering some high tariff
is going to be quite an extensive process.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
What about the security side of things? Is there anything
that Starma will be looking for us? And he's been
leading the charge in support of Ukraine. What discussions would
you anticipate they're going to be having about that?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And of course, given our size, New Zealand's also been
heavily involved in supporting Ukraine, and New Zealand has i
think forces involved in training Ukrainian soldiers in the UK
and so I'm sure they will be discussing that because
that is of major concern. I think there's so many
people that it's a very challenging situation. Goodness knows what
(10:57):
the US President Trump's going to do. He's starting to
make noises about washing his hands of the whole thing,
and yet of you know, the encouraging thing, of course,
is the talk of this minerals agreement with Ukraine, which
would of course tie the US in more with Ukraine's future.
But you know, it's a very tricky situation that has
(11:19):
to be handled very diplomatically right at the moment, and
again I'm sure our Prime Minister is perfectly capable of that.
But we have a very close relationship with the UK
through Five Eyes, through our interests in joining OLCUS. You know,
basically the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, you know the
(11:41):
Five Eyes if you like. There's five countries and the
United States and of course a very very closely involved
with each other, and I hope that can continue to
be built on because it's so important.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Good stuff, Hey, Lockwood's so good to have a chat.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
For more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Listen live to news Talks it'd be weekends from three pm,
or follow the pontodcast on iHeartRadio.
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