October 22, 2025 • 42 mins
They say when one door closes, another one opens.
That’s certainly been the case for Lisa King. In the same breath she closed her first business Eat My Lunch and started a drinks brand AF Drinks.
AF stands for alcohol free - and it's a range of booze free cocktails.
The brand has picked up on a huge rise in people who want to drink less or not at all.
It’s a change not just seen in New Zealand, but across the world. Within two years in the US market, AF Drinks are now available in 4000 stores in America.
Lisa King joined Kerre Woodham in studio for the latest episode of Bosses Unfiltered.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The big winds and the big losses, the hurdles, the pivots,
and the emotions, raw and honest New Zealand's great business
minds like you've never heard them before. This is Bosses
Unfiltered with Kerry Woodhem on iHeart Radio powered by Newstalg SIDB.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
They say, when one door closes, another one opens, and
that's certainly been the case for Lisa King, who in
the same breath closed her first business, Eat My Lunch,
and started a drinks brand, AF Drinks. AF as an
alcohol free has picked up on a huge risme people
who want to drink less or not at all like me.
(00:40):
It's a change not just seen in New Zealand, but
across the world. Within two years in the US market,
AF Drinks are now available in four thousand stores in
the US. But how are things looking behind the scenes.
I'm Kirie Woodhom and this is Bosses Unfiltered, and interview
series about what it's really like to run a business. Lisa,
(01:00):
A very very good morning to.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
You and you too, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's genius coming up with alcohol free drinks that are sophisticated,
that look great, that taste great, and give people an
alternative to the soft drinks or the orange juice that
you know, So where did the idea come from?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So I was actually suffering from quite a bit of
severe vertigo, and I realized every time I had vertigo,
i'd had a gin and tonic. It's unfortunate, it's really
so I thought, Okay, well I better stop drinking for
a little bit. And this is kind of towards the
end of twenty nineteen beginning of twenty twenty. And it
(01:42):
was just really interesting to me that when I would
go out and say, oh, actually I'm not drinking, everyone
just assumed I was pregnant or there was something wrong,
you know, and it was or you know, they didn't
try to encourage me to drink. They'd be like, just
have one, you know. And also I just found, like
you were saying, it was really hard to find good alternatives,
(02:05):
you know, that wasn't a sugary coke or a mix
of fruit juices that you really didn't want to have, particularly,
you know, I don't want to have coke with my
beautiful steak dinner, or you know, when you're socializing with
friends and everyone else is having these beautiful drinks and
you're kind of sitting there with some sparkling water. So
that's kind of what prompted me to start AF. I
(02:26):
just really wanted a gin and tonic without the alcohol,
and it was by the time kind of the idea
came about and we started it, it was lockdown. We
got into lockdown, and so I kind of pulled together
a few people, you know, we did the first three
(02:46):
months over zoom, as everyone did, and I was trying
to come up with a formulation that tasted just like
a freshly major and tonic, but without the alcohol. And
so I was working with like a flavorhouse. During lockdown,
they'd drop off little samples to my door, you know,
I try them, give them feedback, they'll drop off more samples.
(03:09):
And so that kind of process went on for about
eight months, and then we launched into the New Zealand
market at the very end of twenty twenty, and it
was the first kind of product of its kind in
New Zealand. It was really interesting because people would be like, why,
why would you have a gin and tonic without alcohol,
Like that doesn't make sense, and so there was quite
(03:31):
a lot of education of consumers, but also like retailers,
you know, we'd go to the New Worlds and the
countdowns and they'd be like, why would people want this?
And where would we put it?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You know, is.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It an alcohol? Is it with the soft drinks? Like?
There was no space for it naturally, and so we
had to you know, like again just educate and try
and find and earn what best practices were and how
we could actually sell this to your everyday New Zealander.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So did you have to invent a market not only
just a product, but a market.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah. There were a lot of consumers who are confused.
It was really funny because we'd do sampling in store
and people would try it thinking it was a gin
and tonic, and then some people, yeah, they were like,
oh this is great, put a couple in their trolleys,
and it would have incidences where they'd come back and
return it because like there's no alcohol in this.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And say yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
We definitely had to kind of create and educate people
about why you would want to have a product like this.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
And a premium product too. I mean it's not cheap yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And people were like, well, hang on, I can buy
you know, coke for a third of the price. Why
would I buy something like this and it's got no alcohol,
so why is it almost the same price as alcohol?
And it was again really interesting, how you know we've
particularly I think in New Zealand culture everything's centered around alcohol,
(05:10):
and you place such a huge value on alcohol. And
if you actually think about a lot of alcohol, it's
cheap ethanol and it's a toxin, you know, yet we
want to pay more for that in our products. So yeah,
just really interesting, you know how people were kind of
approaching and thinking about alcohol at the time and then
(05:32):
if you look now, you know it's only been we've
been in the market four and a half years, how
quickly that has changed.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, I think the young ones too are looking for
a lifestyle that doesn't revolve around alcohol. They're very body conscious,
they're very health conscious. So how on earth did you
start a business during lockdown and that it's sort of
into and out of lockdowns while you were trying to
get this business up and running, like I wouldn't even
(06:01):
know where to find a flavor house? Did you just
flavor house near me?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Or yeah? It's well, you know, the first fifteen years
of my career I worked in big multinationals for the
likes of Fronterra Cadbury's, Heines Uni Lever.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
We had a background and food and beverage.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, so I kind of knew the processes and I'd
done it, you know. So it's really interesting because people
do ask like, how did you know that? And it
is that past experience that helped me kind of get
this business off the ground. And yeah, the trickiest thing
(06:41):
about making you know, drinks like this is that people go, oh,
it's just flavored water, you know, and we knew like
we had to get it as close to the alcoholic
version as possible. And you know, we've tried lots of
alcohol free products and they are really disappointing. You know,
(07:02):
even alcohol free bears up until recently weren't great. Wine
is really wine is terrible, and because a lot of
like wine bear spirits, they start with alcohol and then
they take the alcohol out, and alcohol, you know, gives
body and texture and that mouth feel what we call
(07:23):
mouthfeel in your mouth. And that was one of the
early realizations. I was like, why would you put alcohol
in it when you want to take it out? That
just didn't really make sense. And so what we did
was we'll get you know, we'll make the best version
of gin and tonic or our prol spirits the alcoholic one,
and then we'll use natural flavors to kind of match
(07:45):
all the different layers and complexity you get in that drink.
And then we found this ingredient. It's our secret little weapon.
It's called afterglow and it's from New Zealand. It's a
botanical extract and it gives you that little burn, yeah,
that bite, yeah, that bite that so many drinks are missing.
(08:06):
And it also does this, It kind of gives you
a warming sensation. So the more you drink, the warmer
you start feeling. And it's different for everyone, Like for me,
it's two afs and my cheeks start getting really warm
and so I actually feel like, you know, I'm having
this adult drink and that I've actually been drinking when
I haven't. And so that's been like such a game
(08:29):
changer for us in terms of being able to deliver
the drinking experience, not just a good tasting beverage.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
So the marketing to around the presentation of the drinks
is really important. It's got to look nice while you're
holding it in the can. It's got to look nice
in a glass. If you're pouring it in a glass.
I love the AF sparkling Rose because if I if
I'm having an occasion where I want to open a bottle,
I want it to be pretty and nice and feel
(08:59):
like an occasion and that you've really nailed it when
it comes to that.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, one of the first people I called when I
had this idea is this amazing guy called Neck Worthington.
He was the creative chairman at Colenso for the last
twenty odd years, and I called him during lockdown. I say, hey,
Nick kind of got this idea, and he gathered a
bunch of also incredibly creatives from ex advertising together. So
(09:28):
much of beverage is about the branding what it says
about you, and so we wanted something that was modern,
that looked beautiful but also but fun and cheeky. Yeah,
which is where the name AF comes from. It officially
stands for alcohol Free, but we all know what we
know what it means.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
For those of you who aren't watching online, Alisa's wearing
a T shirt with boss AF on the front. So
you had your experience in corporate to work from, you know,
and relevant corporate experience, plus a great network of amazing
humans with incredible experience behind them as well. Did they
(10:10):
give you a head start in terms of nailing the
market so quickly? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And I also had my experience from Eat my Lunch,
you know, so being the second startup had taken a
lot of lessons from that and that's really helped, I
think as well, just not making the same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
What were the mistakes you made?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I think knowing that something's always going to go wrong,
you know, just trying to keep that cool, calm head.
And it was Eat my Lunch that kind of taught
me that that no matter what goes wrong, because something will,
it will be okay and we'll get through it. And
so you don't need to panic and you know, kind
(10:57):
of get into a really frantic and anxious space. And
so having that kind of call come head to navigate
all of those challenges and barriers. That's a big one investment,
you know, how much money it really takes to feel
a business. And Af's been quite different because we've gone
internationally as well, so it's a different level of funding,
(11:21):
getting the right people on board at the beginning, and
getting some of those fundamentals right. So yeah, you know,
I was very conscious about getting that group of very
experienced people upfront to really kind of establish the foundations
of the brand and the business, and then just being
(11:41):
really focused on what we're doing and what we stand
for and not trying to do too much too quickly.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
How much did it cost? Because it looks like a
high end product, so I imagine initially it would have been
quite a lot of seed money going into into it
before you even knew if it was going to be
a success.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, And we got our first investment before we'd even
produced our first can, so you know, again that kind
of experience of knowing you need that kind of startup
funding and getting the right people on board again, the people,
I mean that first investment, it wasn't even about the
product because we hadn't even launched it, but it was
(12:26):
about investing in the group of people that I had
and you know, that was where the value is or
was and still is.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
So it costs a lot of money. You know, you're
paying for someone to make your products, you know, all
the beautiful cans, the labeling, everything, the marketing of it,
selling it into retailers.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You know, some didn't know what they were buying.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
He didn't know, yeah, you know, sampling because taste is
everything and we needed people to try it and understand it.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
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Speaker 2 (13:20):
You say you know that you've gone, You've taken it gradually,
but to be exporting overseas within four years as a
big deal, yeah, we.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, I wouldn't say we've been going at a slow pace.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
You take what you know when it comes like, it
comes right. It's so hard to control. And we went
to the US two years ago. Why when we had
established ourselves in New Zealand. You know, we've got forty
market share of the New Zealand market. New Zealand's a
great place to test a product and get those learnings.
(14:02):
But in terms of being able to scale further, we
knew we had to look overseas. We obviously considered Australia
like most New Zealand companies, but Australia is very difficult,
Like I struggled to name, you know, a New Zealand
brand that's really kind of done incredibly well in Australia,
(14:24):
and we thought, for the same amount of effort and
resource that we need to launch in Australia, we might
as well go to the US because the market is
huge over there. And even if you just look at California,
you know, it's fifty million people in one state, and
we're like, if we could just crack California, you know,
the opportunities there and the potential size, it could be massive.
(14:48):
And so we went to the US for a little
visit and we were surprised because we thought it must
have already been you know, other players in the market.
California's very head when it comes to wellness and health
and beverages, and there went brands like ours in California
(15:11):
and we were like, oh, that's really interesting. And then
the retailers over there they hadn't created space for this
type of these types of products or this category. So
suddenly we had this opportunity to be first in the
US as well, which you know, you don't get many
opportunities to be first in a market like that, and
(15:31):
we got into a retailer called Sprouts. They're very high
in natural retailer, like a Whole Foods, and yeah, we
managed to get ranging in fifty stores. Was kind of like,
let's do a test in California and then we'll grow.
As we were making the first products for the US
that day, the Sprouts by a court and they're like,
(15:54):
actually we need to go to all four hundred stores
or we don't do it at all. And so gosh,
you know, we're like four hundred stores in the US
isn't a lot. But for us, it was like.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So how much did that mean you had to increase production.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
By Oh, we were scrambling. We we did the first production,
then we're like, right, when can we do the next one?
We've only got two months to make all of this product.
And you know, we actually had to pay the manufacturer
extra just to schedule us in to get this product
for Sprouts. So yeah, it was a scramble to get
all the products ready.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
And did you have the money there and the af
coffers or did you have to go back to investors
and say we need more.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Fortunately we had the money I at that point, So yeah,
you know, we launched in April twenty three into four
hundred stores with Sprouts, and then onto Amazon as well.
You know, Amazon's a huge channel that we don't have here,
but all Americans shop on Amazon pretty much every day,
(17:01):
so that's become a really big channel for us too.
And then a year, well six months later, we got
a call from Target and the category went from no
retailer had it to then every retailer in the US
is now like, how do we get into the space,
what brands do we bring in? And so we got
(17:23):
a call from Target saying they wanted to do a
trial and they wanted af to be part of that,
and that was six hundred stores. And then we got
a call from Walmart. I had to fly to Bentonville
from New Zealand, a forty eight hour trip to Bentonville
(17:43):
meet the buyer Saladin. They gave us ranging on the spot,
and so we launched in both Target and Walmart last
March and six hundred stores in each. Yeah, so that
we needed more money for because then suddenly we had
to make all of this product and so, you know,
(18:04):
that's one of the challenges is that when you're growing,
you need a lot of capital to fell working capital,
production and costs and so forth to really kind of
make the most of those opportunities.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And are you getting that.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, yeah, we definitely had to go back, you know,
to our current investors. We were very lucky when we
before we launched in the US, we got Perno Ricard
on board as an investor, so you know, we're able
to go back to our current shareholders and get more
money to support the launch those launchers, which they're the
(18:42):
two biggest retailers in the US, so it was a
huge opportunity for us. And then this year actually just
now the last kind of month or so, we've secured
double the number of doors and both Target and warmert
so we went from sex hundred to twelve hundred in
each of those retailers. So we've been very busy expanding
(19:04):
those our presence with those retailers.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Why would the American retailers not look for an American version.
They've seen that an alcohol free drink works, but you're
in New Zealand and you've got to get it to
them as well, don't you.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
We actually produce in the US for the US now
from the beginning, right because you know, with the shipping
issues and costs that came with covid. Also, this is
the product is a lot of water. It just never
made sense to ship right a bunch of water across
the world. Yeah, so we'd always kind of set it
(19:44):
up from the beginning that we wanted to scale quickly,
and so we use third party manufacturers to help make
the products.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Just as the alcohol companies do exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah. So yeah, so we're manufactured locally, we don't, I mean,
apart from fact they know we're from New Zealand, we
don't really leverage that to consumers, so it's not part
of our core proposition. The only thing we do export
from New Zealand is the afterglow is our secret ingredient.
(20:14):
And we talk about the fact that it's from New
Zealand it's this botanical but yeah, the.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Actual product is not hey bikey we made and it's
no no no. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
So the reason why Target and Walmart chose us was
because we were one of the first brands to launch
with sprouts, and so we had proven success and we
had sales behind us. There were only a couple of
other brands launching at that time. So now but now
within two years, you know, there's hundreds of brands launching
(20:49):
into this space.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
How do you secure the deals like going in to
see the Walmart buyo and how are you going in
to see these buyers? Do you have a lucky dress
or special high heels that you wheel when you walk
them there and wear this T shirt?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Normally it's perfect because they must look at this gorgeous
wee thing that walks into their store and think, Okay,
so where's the boss who I deal with?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, it's so funny because there's myself, the rest of
the kind of senior team. They're all I hate to say,
middle aged white men, and so.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It is.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's one of the things that you know, I think
I've struggled with since I've started my career, and but
now I really use it to my advantage. Like I
love the fact when I walk into her room, people
will start talking to my male colleagues thinking they're the boss.
And my husband also works in the business, so we
got a lot of things together, and they'll always talk
(21:51):
to him and he'll be like, ah, you need to
talk to him. She makes the decisions. And I kind
of really love surprising people, and I really like being
underestimated because they do think, you know, I'm like softly
spoken and I'm really nice, and then when they come
to deal with me, they realize, actually, you know, I'm
(22:14):
all into the business and that you can't really muck around.
So yeah, I really kind of use it to my advantage.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Now, how did you educate the market? Did you use
influences like pretty young things who were you know, living
a healthy lifestyle that were able to authentically promote it,
or how did you get eyes on the product?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
One of the key things that James, who's in our team,
is an amazing strategist, and really early on we were
looking at people who went drinking and you know, I
remember he put up this slide on Zoom and it
was you know, Pharrell and Bradley Cooper and Naoi me
(23:00):
Camboll and Sarah Silverman and we're like, oh, they don't drink.
You know, how does Pharrel be the life of the
party and not have any alcohol in him? Or you know,
how do you be a comedian stand up on stage
and not drink? And so we're so fascinated by these
well known, successful people and we were like, if we
(23:20):
can create a world where we can show others that,
you know, these incredible people that everyone wants to be like.
They don't need alcohol in their lives to reach the
levels that they have. You know, we wanted to create
that kind of aspiration and go, I want to be
like them. And so that has always been part of
(23:41):
our strategy, is to share other people's stories and we
like yourself as well, you know, and share with the
general public around people's different relationships with alcohol. So that's
kind of been one way. And it's also and why
we engaged Chloe Kardashian in the States.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
This is the way you just casually drop that in
How I mean she must get all of the Kardashians.
I mean, even though she's no is it Courtney, the
one who's considered a bit of a lazy bones by
the rest of the family. How she must get thousands
of things come across your deck. So how did you
get her eyes on it?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We work with this awesome agency and the based in
the US, but it's run by Kiwi's and they know
the Kardashians. So and I was sitting in the in
the back of an uber in New York with Stephen,
one of the guys from the agency, and we're like,
(24:45):
we got to do something for dry January, and we
come up with this idea, and he was like, well,
you know, Chloe's kind of stopped drinking over the last
year because she's been very focused on getting fit and healthy.
And he said, and Chris, everyone knows she drinks a lot,
and her children apparently make fun of her for her drinking.
(25:07):
And so, you know, we always say our drinks taste it,
you know, as good as their real thing, and it's
hard to tell sometimes, And so like, why don't we
get Chloe to trick Chris into thinking she's having alcohol
and then tell her afterwards that you know, they're actually
alcohol free. And Chris loves a Gin and tonic, And
so the whole premise was that, you know, Chloe invites
(25:29):
Chris over for drinks at five, serves her these gents,
don't tell her that they don't have alcohol, and then
kind of later revealed to Chris that they're non alcoholic.
So Stephen took that idea to them and they loved
it and agreed to do it within like two weeks.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
How much does that kind of past?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Like so fas in one question I'm getting so often
at the moment, it's like, how should you play for
the Cardashians. I know some of the members of the family.
You know, one post is over a million US. I
can say we did not pay anywhere near that, and
we were lucky because we were able to go direct
to them rather than through agents and you know, pay
(26:14):
those fees as well. So yeah, a lot less than that.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
A lot less than a million. Has it paid for itself? Absolutely?
Has that coverage paid for Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
I mean the day she posted our traffic to the
website like skyrocketed and then on Amazon as well. We
saw the immediate effect of that. You know, our sales
were nine times what they were the previous month.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And was that that can't be sustained obviously, but did
you get a lift and sales that remained.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, and we're seeing that now through some of the
retail sales as well, just that extra lift in the
baseline since January, since she posted.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
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Speaker 2 (27:18):
So you're in the US, now, where do you want
to go to next? Or what is the company limited by?
You've got a great product, it looks fantastic. People who
try it like it. So does that mean you're in
the money? You can just relax now?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I wish you know, this is a for those who
know the industry. It's very hard to make money and
beverages in the first few years and so you know,
you are constantly raising and like I said, the more
you grow, the more money you need. And so that's
been one of the challenges is you know, raising money
(27:55):
while still trying to manage the business. And so no,
we're definitely not sitting back and relaxing at the moment.
And it's become really competitive and look, it's not easy.
So yeah, you know, just even the last few months
has been you know, really challenging, particularly being in the US.
(28:17):
You know, I've been spending a lot of time there
because that's where the bulk of our business is now,
and you know, there's a lot of uncertainty at the moment.
You know, sometimes even worry about going back to the US,
but you know, there aren't as many you know, people
aren't investing as freely as they used to. People aren't
(28:38):
buying things as much. You know, they want to see
value in products. We haven't raised our prices and even
in New Zealand since we started.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well that's not sustainable, is it.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Oh, it is in a way that as we grow,
we can get our costs down as well, so you know,
but we want to make it accessible to everyone, so
we're really trying to keep that price where it is.
But yeah, so there's there's just constant challenges, you know,
and it takes you have to be tough to run
(29:15):
your own business. It takes a lot of resilience. And yeah,
because there are many days where you're like, why am
I doing this?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I mean, you had a really successful corporate career and
eat my Lunch was a good idea, but it didn't
work out. Why was that?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I would say, eat my Lunch was. It was amazing.
It was just an incredible business model where you know,
we were able to feed kids at the same time
as we were selling lunches to corporate COVID obviously put
a massive tent in our revenue. You know, our customers
(29:59):
were corporates and then even after the lockdowns and so forth,
people weren't coming back to the office and so people
weren't ordering lunches.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There were less meetings and conferences and things like that
where we really relied on that corporate revenue. So that
was challenging. But then the government implemented the school lunches
program and we were part of that for the first year,
and it really was for us a decision to wind
(30:27):
down the business because in some ways we felt like
our mission was fulfilled. You know, we started out. I
remember the first few weeks where we said, you know,
funnily enough, the success of eating my lunch will be
when we close, because that means we're no longer needed.
And I felt like the government program, you know, we
were feeding two and a half thousand kids a day.
(30:48):
The government program took that tow one hundred and sixty
thousand kids every day. Like to me, that's success in
its own way financially and commercially as a business, it
didn't makes sense for us to keep going. And the
requirements of the school lunches program, you know, needing hot food,
which just costs like we couldn't make it work commercially
(31:12):
to sustain that contract, so.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
You didn't feel a sense of failure we neat my
lunch closed.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, in some ways, I actually felt like it was
an achievement to get to that point because it meant,
you know, kids went't relying on us anymore. It was
a natural point for us to close that.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah. Have you ever wanted to walk away from AF?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
No? Not yet. Might calm one day, but yeah, it's
been a vastly different business as well. My lunch was
like fresh food we're making. You know, you're up at
four in the morning making fresh lunches every single day,
and thousands and thousands of them. It was tough, and
(31:57):
you know, something would go wrong every day, you know,
the not the right number of loaves of bread arrives
and you're like, oh my god, what am I going
to do? And there was such time pressure because you know,
you have to deliver it at lunchtime. So whereas AF
this is you know, slightly easier because it's cans of drinks.
(32:18):
You know, they don't go off in a day. They're
easy to deliver.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Say, in a way, the pressures have been brought about
because it's been so successful, is it? You know, success
brings its own pressure.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know when I started AF I
was also there was a lot of internal pressure on
myself going, oh, it's my second business. Now everyone's going
to be looking at it with even more eyes and going,
you know, well, how is she going to manage this one?
And you know, is it going to end in the
same way as it my lunch or you know, there's
(32:49):
definitely Yeah, there was a lot of probably self pressure
put on.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think if you're going to be in a successful startup,
you also have to have a fair bit of physical resilience,
don't you because there'd be plenty of sleepless nights.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Yeah. And I've been traveling a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And it's not glamorous, is it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
No. Everyone thinks it's like when you say, oh, I'm
off to the US. You know, sometimes you're going to
like the middle of nowhere in the US, you know,
like our plants are in like there's nothing around it,
and the only accommodation is some really scary motel, you know,
and with the only restaurant being the service station across
(33:32):
the road. So yeah, it's not glamorous, and it does
take a toll on your body.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And what will make it worth it.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, it's so funny. I think. You know, success for
me with both of businesses have always been around. First
of all, as a group, we've always said we wanted
to do and work in businesses that can make the
world a little bit better. And for you know, In
My Lunch that was really obvious. You know, we fed
(34:03):
millions of kids for af it's about changing that drinking
culture and you know, we know a little bit less
alcohol in the world is a good thing. And so
there's that part of it. The second one is like,
you know, leaving that legacy for your kids. I know,
for Eat my Lunch, it was really important, like my
(34:23):
kids because we started that business in my house. You know,
my kids were six and eight and they got to
see what it takes to build a business. They were
really involved.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I always say one of my proudest moments was when
I heard them arguing with each other one day. You know,
they were like maybe eight and ten or something, and
they're having this huge argument and it was about who
was going to take over Eat my Lunch when I died.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
And yeah, but that to me, but it did take
a personal toll, didn't it. Setting up Eat My lunch.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, relationships really difficult to maintain because
when you start a business you kind of have to
go into it one hundred and twenty percent and there's
not a lot left, you know, by the end of
it for anything else. And so yeah, it definitely did
(35:22):
take a toll on my relationship at the time. And
then with the kids as well. You know, you always
feel guilty that you can't go to everything that they've
got on you miss you know, awards, ceremonies or sports games.
I remembered Toby, my youngest, he said to me, Mum,
(35:46):
and he was at primary school. He's like, why do
you drop off lunch like some of the other parents
do to.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The cast.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And I was like, what, you know, but that's what
some of the moms were doing, you know, they were
like coming in with hot lunches at lunchtime for some
of the kids at school.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
And he was like, oh, how come you just.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Can't do that? Or you know, I could not pick
them up from school most days, and so you know
we'd have help with that and things. So yeah, some
of those questions, you know, it does make you thank
God it is this with it.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So going into af with a new relationship. Were you
nervous about the toll it would take and what is
the difference between starting a business and your former relationship
starting a business and the new relationship.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yeah. I was definitely very against Matt, who's my husband now,
being involved in the business because of the first experience,
you know, and I was very much like, no, you've.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Got to stay out of it.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
But a time he's it is hard because like even
outside of business hours, you know, I talk to him
about the business all the time, So in some ways
he was involved anyway, whether it was officially or not.
But over time we kind of just got more comfortable
with it. And he's been amazing because he's very much like,
(37:20):
you're the boss, and I think having that clarity and
definition and roles that's what's made it really work this
time around. So he won't you know, he's like, any
final decision, that's your say. I'll give you my opinion,
but ultimately you're the boss. And he really respects me
in that capacity as well. He's such a great support
(37:44):
and it's nice to talk to someone who actually understands
what's going on because there's so much that happens, you know,
in a day, and sometimes you can feel very lonely
as an entrepreneur and as the sea dealing with all
these issues on your own. And also him and I
wear very complimentary skills. Yeah, he's very good with people.
(38:09):
Oh are you going to deal with that? Can you
go and have that difficult talk? And yeah, so it's
worked really well this time around.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Will success mean you list the company or that you're
brought up for stocking amounts of money so you and
the kids and make can sell the world on your own.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Luxury that's the dream? Yeah, you know, definitely success means
you know, some kind of reward at the end, both
financially and I think generally. You know, I want to
see this business do really well and have the impact
that we intended for it today from the beginning. So yeah,
(38:54):
hopefully that will come soon.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And will that be you holding onto the company or
are you willing to give up your baby for the
right price.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I think I've always been whatever's best for the company.
You know, I'm not one of those founders. It's like
I've got to hold on to it and never let go.
And that's kind of always been the way that I've worked.
It's like whatever you know what is going to put
the company in the best place, in the best position.
Who's going to be able to take it forward the fastest.
(39:22):
You know, who's got global reach or manufacturing that's going
to enable the company to really become profitable and sustainable.
Does that mean I'm in it or not? I don't
really mind either way.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Ex soll and just do the quick fire questions. Early
bird or night owl? I suppose you have to be
both at the moment with the global I.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Is such a night owl. Like so the funniest thing,
like during eat my lunch, all my friends laughed at
me because it was an early morning business. We had
to be up at four and it was the biggest struggle,
like every single day. And now I'm like, I'm a
night out. I go to bed at midnight, hate get up.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Where do you get your best ideas?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I normally give them in the shower. That's my meeting
and creative time. So I have very long showers. Sorry
Auckland Water.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
How do you stay resilient when things get tough? What
keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Again? I think knowing having been through it before and
knowing that I will be able to get through it
and not trying to take things too seriously or personally. Yeah,
that kind of gets me through.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Hard when it's your baby, though. Yeah, what's one thing
you wish someone had told you when you became your
own boss?
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Ah, how hard it was going to be. It is
incredibly challenging. I wouldn't do anything else now. I can't
even imagine my corporate life seemed like it was a
different life. You know, I can't imagine going back into
big business and working for someone else, Like I love
being my own BOSSU that met. It is so hard
(41:03):
some days, and I think nothing really quite prepares you
for that, and that how much you have to give
up to be that. And in some ways it's like
having kids. You know, no one people can tell you
and give you all the advice, but until you're in it,
you can't really experience. You know, that is one of
(41:24):
the most difficult jobs.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, you can't experience how tough it is. All the
joy yeah as well, Yeah, in moments and what really
excites you.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Ah, I mean there's already things, you know, even the
smallest wins these days, you know, you're just like, oh
my god, that's so cool. You get an email from
someone who tells you how much they love AF. I
got a comment the other day from someone saying, you know,
af's really like literally changed my life because you know,
I had to stop drinking and this has been the
(41:56):
one thing that's really helped me. And so it's those
kind of that kind of feedback or even you know,
when I've had young Asian women, you know, message me
and say it's so great seeing a female Asian entrepreneur
like you, you know, because there aren't that many around,
and you're like, oh wow, you know, like I never
(42:19):
thought I would have that kind of impact on others.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, you can experience how tough it is or the
joy of it as well. The Golden Moments that was
Lisa King from AF Drinks. Just love how candid she
was about highs and lows of her experience as a
business owner. If you want to hear more stories about
what it's really like to be a boss, make sure
you check out Bosses Unfiltered on iHeartRadio or wherever you
(42:45):
get your podcasts. Catch you next time.
The big winds and the big losses, the hurdles, the pivots,
and the emotions, raw and honest New Zealand's great business
minds like you've never heard them before. This is Bosses
Unfiltered with Kerry Woodhem on iHeart Radio powered by Newstalg SIDB.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
They say, when one door closes, another one opens, and
that's certainly been the case for Lisa King, who in
the same breath closed her first business, Eat My Lunch,
and started a drinks brand, AF Drinks. AF as an
alcohol free has picked up on a huge risme people
who want to drink less or not at all like me.
(00:40):
It's a change not just seen in New Zealand, but
across the world. Within two years in the US market,
AF Drinks are now available in four thousand stores in
the US. But how are things looking behind the scenes.
I'm Kirie Woodhom and this is Bosses Unfiltered, and interview
series about what it's really like to run a business. Lisa,
(01:00):
A very very good morning to.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
You and you too, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's genius coming up with alcohol free drinks that are sophisticated,
that look great, that taste great, and give people an
alternative to the soft drinks or the orange juice that
you know, So where did the idea come from?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So I was actually suffering from quite a bit of
severe vertigo, and I realized every time I had vertigo,
i'd had a gin and tonic. It's unfortunate, it's really
so I thought, Okay, well I better stop drinking for
a little bit. And this is kind of towards the
end of twenty nineteen beginning of twenty twenty. And it
(01:42):
was just really interesting to me that when I would
go out and say, oh, actually I'm not drinking, everyone
just assumed I was pregnant or there was something wrong,
you know, and it was or you know, they didn't
try to encourage me to drink. They'd be like, just
have one, you know. And also I just found, like
you were saying, it was really hard to find good alternatives,
(02:05):
you know, that wasn't a sugary coke or a mix
of fruit juices that you really didn't want to have, particularly,
you know, I don't want to have coke with my
beautiful steak dinner, or you know, when you're socializing with
friends and everyone else is having these beautiful drinks and
you're kind of sitting there with some sparkling water. So
that's kind of what prompted me to start AF. I
(02:26):
just really wanted a gin and tonic without the alcohol,
and it was by the time kind of the idea
came about and we started it, it was lockdown. We
got into lockdown, and so I kind of pulled together
a few people, you know, we did the first three
(02:46):
months over zoom, as everyone did, and I was trying
to come up with a formulation that tasted just like
a freshly major and tonic, but without the alcohol. And
so I was working with like a flavorhouse. During lockdown,
they'd drop off little samples to my door, you know,
I try them, give them feedback, they'll drop off more samples.
(03:09):
And so that kind of process went on for about
eight months, and then we launched into the New Zealand
market at the very end of twenty twenty, and it
was the first kind of product of its kind in
New Zealand. It was really interesting because people would be like, why,
why would you have a gin and tonic without alcohol,
Like that doesn't make sense, and so there was quite
(03:31):
a lot of education of consumers, but also like retailers,
you know, we'd go to the New Worlds and the
countdowns and they'd be like, why would people want this?
And where would we put it?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You know, is.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It an alcohol? Is it with the soft drinks? Like?
There was no space for it naturally, and so we
had to you know, like again just educate and try
and find and earn what best practices were and how
we could actually sell this to your everyday New Zealander.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So did you have to invent a market not only
just a product, but a market.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah. There were a lot of consumers who are confused.
It was really funny because we'd do sampling in store
and people would try it thinking it was a gin
and tonic, and then some people, yeah, they were like,
oh this is great, put a couple in their trolleys,
and it would have incidences where they'd come back and
return it because like there's no alcohol in this.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And say yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
We definitely had to kind of create and educate people
about why you would want to have a product like this.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
And a premium product too. I mean it's not cheap yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And people were like, well, hang on, I can buy
you know, coke for a third of the price. Why
would I buy something like this and it's got no alcohol,
so why is it almost the same price as alcohol?
And it was again really interesting, how you know we've
particularly I think in New Zealand culture everything's centered around alcohol,
(05:10):
and you place such a huge value on alcohol. And
if you actually think about a lot of alcohol, it's
cheap ethanol and it's a toxin, you know, yet we
want to pay more for that in our products. So yeah,
just really interesting, you know how people were kind of
approaching and thinking about alcohol at the time and then
(05:32):
if you look now, you know it's only been we've
been in the market four and a half years, how
quickly that has changed.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, I think the young ones too are looking for
a lifestyle that doesn't revolve around alcohol. They're very body conscious,
they're very health conscious. So how on earth did you
start a business during lockdown and that it's sort of
into and out of lockdowns while you were trying to
get this business up and running, like I wouldn't even
(06:01):
know where to find a flavor house? Did you just
flavor house near me?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Or yeah? It's well, you know, the first fifteen years
of my career I worked in big multinationals for the
likes of Fronterra Cadbury's, Heines Uni Lever.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
We had a background and food and beverage.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, so I kind of knew the processes and I'd
done it, you know. So it's really interesting because people
do ask like, how did you know that? And it
is that past experience that helped me kind of get
this business off the ground. And yeah, the trickiest thing
(06:41):
about making you know, drinks like this is that people go, oh,
it's just flavored water, you know, and we knew like
we had to get it as close to the alcoholic
version as possible. And you know, we've tried lots of
alcohol free products and they are really disappointing. You know,
(07:02):
even alcohol free bears up until recently weren't great. Wine
is really wine is terrible, and because a lot of
like wine bear spirits, they start with alcohol and then
they take the alcohol out, and alcohol, you know, gives
body and texture and that mouth feel what we call
(07:23):
mouthfeel in your mouth. And that was one of the
early realizations. I was like, why would you put alcohol
in it when you want to take it out? That
just didn't really make sense. And so what we did
was we'll get you know, we'll make the best version
of gin and tonic or our prol spirits the alcoholic one,
and then we'll use natural flavors to kind of match
(07:45):
all the different layers and complexity you get in that drink.
And then we found this ingredient. It's our secret little weapon.
It's called afterglow and it's from New Zealand. It's a
botanical extract and it gives you that little burn, yeah,
that bite, yeah, that bite that so many drinks are missing.
(08:06):
And it also does this, It kind of gives you
a warming sensation. So the more you drink, the warmer
you start feeling. And it's different for everyone, Like for me,
it's two afs and my cheeks start getting really warm
and so I actually feel like, you know, I'm having
this adult drink and that I've actually been drinking when
I haven't. And so that's been like such a game
(08:29):
changer for us in terms of being able to deliver
the drinking experience, not just a good tasting beverage.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
So the marketing to around the presentation of the drinks
is really important. It's got to look nice while you're
holding it in the can. It's got to look nice
in a glass. If you're pouring it in a glass.
I love the AF sparkling Rose because if I if
I'm having an occasion where I want to open a bottle,
I want it to be pretty and nice and feel
(08:59):
like an occasion and that you've really nailed it when
it comes to that.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, one of the first people I called when I
had this idea is this amazing guy called Neck Worthington.
He was the creative chairman at Colenso for the last
twenty odd years, and I called him during lockdown. I say, hey,
Nick kind of got this idea, and he gathered a
bunch of also incredibly creatives from ex advertising together. So
(09:28):
much of beverage is about the branding what it says
about you, and so we wanted something that was modern,
that looked beautiful but also but fun and cheeky. Yeah,
which is where the name AF comes from. It officially
stands for alcohol Free, but we all know what we
know what it means.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
For those of you who aren't watching online, Alisa's wearing
a T shirt with boss AF on the front. So
you had your experience in corporate to work from, you know,
and relevant corporate experience, plus a great network of amazing
humans with incredible experience behind them as well. Did they
(10:10):
give you a head start in terms of nailing the
market so quickly? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And I also had my experience from Eat my Lunch,
you know, so being the second startup had taken a
lot of lessons from that and that's really helped, I
think as well, just not making the same mistakes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
What were the mistakes you made?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I think knowing that something's always going to go wrong,
you know, just trying to keep that cool, calm head.
And it was Eat my Lunch that kind of taught
me that that no matter what goes wrong, because something will,
it will be okay and we'll get through it. And
so you don't need to panic and you know, kind
(10:57):
of get into a really frantic and anxious space. And
so having that kind of call come head to navigate
all of those challenges and barriers. That's a big one investment,
you know, how much money it really takes to feel
a business. And Af's been quite different because we've gone
internationally as well, so it's a different level of funding,
(11:21):
getting the right people on board at the beginning, and
getting some of those fundamentals right. So yeah, you know,
I was very conscious about getting that group of very
experienced people upfront to really kind of establish the foundations
of the brand and the business, and then just being
(11:41):
really focused on what we're doing and what we stand
for and not trying to do too much too quickly.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
How much did it cost? Because it looks like a
high end product, so I imagine initially it would have been
quite a lot of seed money going into into it
before you even knew if it was going to be
a success.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, And we got our first investment before we'd even
produced our first can, so you know, again that kind
of experience of knowing you need that kind of startup
funding and getting the right people on board again, the people,
I mean that first investment, it wasn't even about the
product because we hadn't even launched it, but it was
(12:26):
about investing in the group of people that I had
and you know, that was where the value is or
was and still is.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
So it costs a lot of money. You know, you're
paying for someone to make your products, you know, all
the beautiful cans, the labeling, everything, the marketing of it,
selling it into retailers.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You know, some didn't know what they were buying.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
He didn't know, yeah, you know, sampling because taste is
everything and we needed people to try it and understand it.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
The honest story of being in business, Talking the wins
and the losses Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem On iHeartRadio
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Speaker 2 (13:20):
You say you know that you've gone, You've taken it gradually,
but to be exporting overseas within four years as a
big deal, yeah, we.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, I wouldn't say we've been going at a slow pace.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
You take what you know when it comes like, it
comes right. It's so hard to control. And we went
to the US two years ago. Why when we had
established ourselves in New Zealand. You know, we've got forty
market share of the New Zealand market. New Zealand's a
great place to test a product and get those learnings.
(14:02):
But in terms of being able to scale further, we
knew we had to look overseas. We obviously considered Australia
like most New Zealand companies, but Australia is very difficult,
Like I struggled to name, you know, a New Zealand
brand that's really kind of done incredibly well in Australia,
(14:24):
and we thought, for the same amount of effort and
resource that we need to launch in Australia, we might
as well go to the US because the market is
huge over there. And even if you just look at California,
you know, it's fifty million people in one state, and
we're like, if we could just crack California, you know,
the opportunities there and the potential size, it could be massive.
(14:48):
And so we went to the US for a little
visit and we were surprised because we thought it must
have already been you know, other players in the market.
California's very head when it comes to wellness and health
and beverages, and there went brands like ours in California
(15:11):
and we were like, oh, that's really interesting. And then
the retailers over there they hadn't created space for this
type of these types of products or this category. So
suddenly we had this opportunity to be first in the
US as well, which you know, you don't get many
opportunities to be first in a market like that, and
(15:31):
we got into a retailer called Sprouts. They're very high
in natural retailer, like a Whole Foods, and yeah, we
managed to get ranging in fifty stores. Was kind of like,
let's do a test in California and then we'll grow.
As we were making the first products for the US
that day, the Sprouts by a court and they're like,
(15:54):
actually we need to go to all four hundred stores
or we don't do it at all. And so gosh,
you know, we're like four hundred stores in the US
isn't a lot. But for us, it was like.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So how much did that mean you had to increase production.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
By Oh, we were scrambling. We we did the first production,
then we're like, right, when can we do the next one?
We've only got two months to make all of this product.
And you know, we actually had to pay the manufacturer
extra just to schedule us in to get this product
for Sprouts. So yeah, it was a scramble to get
all the products ready.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
And did you have the money there and the af
coffers or did you have to go back to investors
and say we need more.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Fortunately we had the money I at that point, So yeah,
you know, we launched in April twenty three into four
hundred stores with Sprouts, and then onto Amazon as well.
You know, Amazon's a huge channel that we don't have here,
but all Americans shop on Amazon pretty much every day,
(17:01):
so that's become a really big channel for us too.
And then a year, well six months later, we got
a call from Target and the category went from no
retailer had it to then every retailer in the US
is now like, how do we get into the space,
what brands do we bring in? And so we got
(17:23):
a call from Target saying they wanted to do a
trial and they wanted af to be part of that,
and that was six hundred stores. And then we got
a call from Walmart. I had to fly to Bentonville
from New Zealand, a forty eight hour trip to Bentonville
(17:43):
meet the buyer Saladin. They gave us ranging on the spot,
and so we launched in both Target and Walmart last
March and six hundred stores in each. Yeah, so that
we needed more money for because then suddenly we had
to make all of this product and so, you know,
(18:04):
that's one of the challenges is that when you're growing,
you need a lot of capital to fell working capital,
production and costs and so forth to really kind of
make the most of those opportunities.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And are you getting that.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, yeah, we definitely had to go back, you know,
to our current investors. We were very lucky when we
before we launched in the US, we got Perno Ricard
on board as an investor, so you know, we're able
to go back to our current shareholders and get more
money to support the launch those launchers, which they're the
(18:42):
two biggest retailers in the US, so it was a
huge opportunity for us. And then this year actually just
now the last kind of month or so, we've secured
double the number of doors and both Target and warmert
so we went from sex hundred to twelve hundred in
each of those retailers. So we've been very busy expanding
(19:04):
those our presence with those retailers.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Why would the American retailers not look for an American version.
They've seen that an alcohol free drink works, but you're
in New Zealand and you've got to get it to
them as well, don't you.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
We actually produce in the US for the US now
from the beginning, right because you know, with the shipping
issues and costs that came with covid. Also, this is
the product is a lot of water. It just never
made sense to ship right a bunch of water across
the world. Yeah, so we'd always kind of set it
(19:44):
up from the beginning that we wanted to scale quickly,
and so we use third party manufacturers to help make
the products.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Just as the alcohol companies do exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah. So yeah, so we're manufactured locally, we don't, I mean,
apart from fact they know we're from New Zealand, we
don't really leverage that to consumers, so it's not part
of our core proposition. The only thing we do export
from New Zealand is the afterglow is our secret ingredient.
(20:14):
And we talk about the fact that it's from New
Zealand it's this botanical but yeah, the.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Actual product is not hey bikey we made and it's
no no no. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
So the reason why Target and Walmart chose us was
because we were one of the first brands to launch
with sprouts, and so we had proven success and we
had sales behind us. There were only a couple of
other brands launching at that time. So now but now
within two years, you know, there's hundreds of brands launching
(20:49):
into this space.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
How do you secure the deals like going in to
see the Walmart buyo and how are you going in
to see these buyers? Do you have a lucky dress
or special high heels that you wheel when you walk
them there and wear this T shirt?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Normally it's perfect because they must look at this gorgeous
wee thing that walks into their store and think, Okay,
so where's the boss who I deal with?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, it's so funny because there's myself, the rest of
the kind of senior team. They're all I hate to say,
middle aged white men, and so.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It is.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's one of the things that you know, I think
I've struggled with since I've started my career, and but
now I really use it to my advantage. Like I
love the fact when I walk into her room, people
will start talking to my male colleagues thinking they're the boss.
And my husband also works in the business, so we
got a lot of things together, and they'll always talk
(21:51):
to him and he'll be like, ah, you need to
talk to him. She makes the decisions. And I kind
of really love surprising people, and I really like being
underestimated because they do think, you know, I'm like softly
spoken and I'm really nice, and then when they come
to deal with me, they realize, actually, you know, I'm
(22:14):
all into the business and that you can't really muck around.
So yeah, I really kind of use it to my advantage.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Now, how did you educate the market? Did you use
influences like pretty young things who were you know, living
a healthy lifestyle that were able to authentically promote it,
or how did you get eyes on the product?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
One of the key things that James, who's in our team,
is an amazing strategist, and really early on we were
looking at people who went drinking and you know, I
remember he put up this slide on Zoom and it
was you know, Pharrell and Bradley Cooper and Naoi me
(23:00):
Camboll and Sarah Silverman and we're like, oh, they don't drink.
You know, how does Pharrel be the life of the
party and not have any alcohol in him? Or you know,
how do you be a comedian stand up on stage
and not drink? And so we're so fascinated by these
well known, successful people and we were like, if we
(23:20):
can create a world where we can show others that,
you know, these incredible people that everyone wants to be like.
They don't need alcohol in their lives to reach the
levels that they have. You know, we wanted to create
that kind of aspiration and go, I want to be
like them. And so that has always been part of
(23:41):
our strategy, is to share other people's stories and we
like yourself as well, you know, and share with the
general public around people's different relationships with alcohol. So that's
kind of been one way. And it's also and why
we engaged Chloe Kardashian in the States.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
This is the way you just casually drop that in
How I mean she must get all of the Kardashians.
I mean, even though she's no is it Courtney, the
one who's considered a bit of a lazy bones by
the rest of the family. How she must get thousands
of things come across your deck. So how did you
get her eyes on it?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We work with this awesome agency and the based in
the US, but it's run by Kiwi's and they know
the Kardashians. So and I was sitting in the in
the back of an uber in New York with Stephen,
one of the guys from the agency, and we're like,
(24:45):
we got to do something for dry January, and we
come up with this idea, and he was like, well,
you know, Chloe's kind of stopped drinking over the last
year because she's been very focused on getting fit and healthy.
And he said, and Chris, everyone knows she drinks a lot,
and her children apparently make fun of her for her drinking.
(25:07):
And so, you know, we always say our drinks taste it,
you know, as good as their real thing, and it's
hard to tell sometimes, And so like, why don't we
get Chloe to trick Chris into thinking she's having alcohol
and then tell her afterwards that you know, they're actually
alcohol free. And Chris loves a Gin and tonic, And
so the whole premise was that, you know, Chloe invites
(25:29):
Chris over for drinks at five, serves her these gents,
don't tell her that they don't have alcohol, and then
kind of later revealed to Chris that they're non alcoholic.
So Stephen took that idea to them and they loved
it and agreed to do it within like two weeks.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
How much does that kind of past?
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Like so fas in one question I'm getting so often
at the moment, it's like, how should you play for
the Cardashians. I know some of the members of the family.
You know, one post is over a million US. I
can say we did not pay anywhere near that, and
we were lucky because we were able to go direct
to them rather than through agents and you know, pay
(26:14):
those fees as well. So yeah, a lot less than that.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
A lot less than a million. Has it paid for itself? Absolutely?
Has that coverage paid for Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
I mean the day she posted our traffic to the
website like skyrocketed and then on Amazon as well. We
saw the immediate effect of that. You know, our sales
were nine times what they were the previous month.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And was that that can't be sustained obviously, but did
you get a lift and sales that remained.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, and we're seeing that now through some of the
retail sales as well, just that extra lift in the
baseline since January, since she posted.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Wins, Losses and the real stories behind our Great Companies.
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem on iHeartRadio powered by News
TALKSB The big lessons from New Zealand's youngest and oldest entrepreneurs.
Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem On iHeartRadio powered by News TALKSB.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
So you're in the US, now, where do you want
to go to next? Or what is the company limited by?
You've got a great product, it looks fantastic. People who
try it like it. So does that mean you're in
the money? You can just relax now?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I wish you know, this is a for those who
know the industry. It's very hard to make money and
beverages in the first few years and so you know,
you are constantly raising and like I said, the more
you grow, the more money you need. And so that's
been one of the challenges is you know, raising money
(27:55):
while still trying to manage the business. And so no,
we're definitely not sitting back and relaxing at the moment.
And it's become really competitive and look, it's not easy.
So yeah, you know, just even the last few months
has been you know, really challenging, particularly being in the US.
(28:17):
You know, I've been spending a lot of time there
because that's where the bulk of our business is now,
and you know, there's a lot of uncertainty at the moment.
You know, sometimes even worry about going back to the US,
but you know, there aren't as many you know, people
aren't investing as freely as they used to. People aren't
(28:38):
buying things as much. You know, they want to see
value in products. We haven't raised our prices and even
in New Zealand since we started.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Well that's not sustainable, is it.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Oh, it is in a way that as we grow,
we can get our costs down as well, so you know,
but we want to make it accessible to everyone, so
we're really trying to keep that price where it is.
But yeah, so there's there's just constant challenges, you know,
and it takes you have to be tough to run
(29:15):
your own business. It takes a lot of resilience. And yeah,
because there are many days where you're like, why am
I doing this?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I mean, you had a really successful corporate career and
eat my Lunch was a good idea, but it didn't
work out. Why was that?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
I would say, eat my Lunch was. It was amazing.
It was just an incredible business model where you know,
we were able to feed kids at the same time
as we were selling lunches to corporate COVID obviously put
a massive tent in our revenue. You know, our customers
(29:59):
were corporates and then even after the lockdowns and so forth,
people weren't coming back to the office and so people
weren't ordering lunches.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There were less meetings and conferences and things like that
where we really relied on that corporate revenue. So that
was challenging. But then the government implemented the school lunches
program and we were part of that for the first year,
and it really was for us a decision to wind
(30:27):
down the business because in some ways we felt like
our mission was fulfilled. You know, we started out. I
remember the first few weeks where we said, you know,
funnily enough, the success of eating my lunch will be
when we close, because that means we're no longer needed.
And I felt like the government program, you know, we
were feeding two and a half thousand kids a day.
(30:48):
The government program took that tow one hundred and sixty
thousand kids every day. Like to me, that's success in
its own way financially and commercially as a business, it
didn't makes sense for us to keep going. And the
requirements of the school lunches program, you know, needing hot food,
which just costs like we couldn't make it work commercially
(31:12):
to sustain that contract, so.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
You didn't feel a sense of failure we neat my
lunch closed.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, in some ways, I actually felt like it was
an achievement to get to that point because it meant,
you know, kids went't relying on us anymore. It was
a natural point for us to close that.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah. Have you ever wanted to walk away from AF?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
No? Not yet. Might calm one day, but yeah, it's
been a vastly different business as well. My lunch was
like fresh food we're making. You know, you're up at
four in the morning making fresh lunches every single day,
and thousands and thousands of them. It was tough, and
(31:57):
you know, something would go wrong every day, you know,
the not the right number of loaves of bread arrives
and you're like, oh my god, what am I going
to do? And there was such time pressure because you know,
you have to deliver it at lunchtime. So whereas AF
this is you know, slightly easier because it's cans of drinks.
(32:18):
You know, they don't go off in a day. They're
easy to deliver.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Say, in a way, the pressures have been brought about
because it's been so successful, is it? You know, success
brings its own pressure.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know when I started AF I
was also there was a lot of internal pressure on
myself going, oh, it's my second business. Now everyone's going
to be looking at it with even more eyes and going,
you know, well, how is she going to manage this one?
And you know, is it going to end in the
same way as it my lunch or you know, there's
(32:49):
definitely Yeah, there was a lot of probably self pressure
put on.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think if you're going to be in a successful startup,
you also have to have a fair bit of physical resilience,
don't you because there'd be plenty of sleepless nights.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Yeah. And I've been traveling a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And it's not glamorous, is it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
No. Everyone thinks it's like when you say, oh, I'm
off to the US. You know, sometimes you're going to
like the middle of nowhere in the US, you know,
like our plants are in like there's nothing around it,
and the only accommodation is some really scary motel, you know,
and with the only restaurant being the service station across
(33:32):
the road. So yeah, it's not glamorous, and it does
take a toll on your body.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And what will make it worth it.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, it's so funny. I think. You know, success for
me with both of businesses have always been around. First
of all, as a group, we've always said we wanted
to do and work in businesses that can make the
world a little bit better. And for you know, In
My Lunch that was really obvious. You know, we fed
(34:03):
millions of kids for af it's about changing that drinking
culture and you know, we know a little bit less
alcohol in the world is a good thing. And so
there's that part of it. The second one is like,
you know, leaving that legacy for your kids. I know,
for Eat my Lunch, it was really important, like my
(34:23):
kids because we started that business in my house. You know,
my kids were six and eight and they got to
see what it takes to build a business. They were
really involved.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I always say one of my proudest moments was when
I heard them arguing with each other one day. You know,
they were like maybe eight and ten or something, and
they're having this huge argument and it was about who
was going to take over Eat my Lunch when I died.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
And yeah, but that to me, but it did take
a personal toll, didn't it. Setting up Eat My lunch.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, relationships really difficult to maintain because
when you start a business you kind of have to
go into it one hundred and twenty percent and there's
not a lot left, you know, by the end of
it for anything else. And so yeah, it definitely did
(35:22):
take a toll on my relationship at the time. And
then with the kids as well. You know, you always
feel guilty that you can't go to everything that they've
got on you miss you know, awards, ceremonies or sports games.
I remembered Toby, my youngest, he said to me, Mum,
(35:46):
and he was at primary school. He's like, why do
you drop off lunch like some of the other parents
do to.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The cast.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And I was like, what, you know, but that's what
some of the moms were doing, you know, they were
like coming in with hot lunches at lunchtime for some
of the kids at school.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
And he was like, oh, how come you just.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Can't do that? Or you know, I could not pick
them up from school most days, and so you know
we'd have help with that and things. So yeah, some
of those questions, you know, it does make you thank
God it is this with it.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So going into af with a new relationship. Were you
nervous about the toll it would take and what is
the difference between starting a business and your former relationship
starting a business and the new relationship.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yeah. I was definitely very against Matt, who's my husband now,
being involved in the business because of the first experience,
you know, and I was very much like, no, you've.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Got to stay out of it.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
But a time he's it is hard because like even
outside of business hours, you know, I talk to him
about the business all the time, So in some ways
he was involved anyway, whether it was officially or not.
But over time we kind of just got more comfortable
with it. And he's been amazing because he's very much like,
(37:20):
you're the boss, and I think having that clarity and
definition and roles that's what's made it really work this
time around. So he won't you know, he's like, any
final decision, that's your say. I'll give you my opinion,
but ultimately you're the boss. And he really respects me
in that capacity as well. He's such a great support
(37:44):
and it's nice to talk to someone who actually understands
what's going on because there's so much that happens, you know,
in a day, and sometimes you can feel very lonely
as an entrepreneur and as the sea dealing with all
these issues on your own. And also him and I
wear very complimentary skills. Yeah, he's very good with people.
(38:09):
Oh are you going to deal with that? Can you
go and have that difficult talk? And yeah, so it's
worked really well this time around.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Will success mean you list the company or that you're
brought up for stocking amounts of money so you and
the kids and make can sell the world on your own.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Luxury that's the dream? Yeah, you know, definitely success means
you know, some kind of reward at the end, both
financially and I think generally. You know, I want to
see this business do really well and have the impact
that we intended for it today from the beginning. So yeah,
(38:54):
hopefully that will come soon.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
And will that be you holding onto the company or
are you willing to give up your baby for the
right price.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I think I've always been whatever's best for the company.
You know, I'm not one of those founders. It's like
I've got to hold on to it and never let go.
And that's kind of always been the way that I've worked.
It's like whatever you know what is going to put
the company in the best place, in the best position.
Who's going to be able to take it forward the fastest.
(39:22):
You know, who's got global reach or manufacturing that's going
to enable the company to really become profitable and sustainable.
Does that mean I'm in it or not? I don't
really mind either way.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Ex soll and just do the quick fire questions. Early
bird or night owl? I suppose you have to be
both at the moment with the global I.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Is such a night owl. Like so the funniest thing,
like during eat my lunch, all my friends laughed at
me because it was an early morning business. We had
to be up at four and it was the biggest struggle,
like every single day. And now I'm like, I'm a
night out. I go to bed at midnight, hate get up.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Where do you get your best ideas?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I normally give them in the shower. That's my meeting
and creative time. So I have very long showers. Sorry
Auckland Water.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
How do you stay resilient when things get tough? What
keeps you going?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Again? I think knowing having been through it before and
knowing that I will be able to get through it
and not trying to take things too seriously or personally. Yeah,
that kind of gets me through.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Hard when it's your baby, though. Yeah, what's one thing
you wish someone had told you when you became your
own boss?
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Ah, how hard it was going to be. It is
incredibly challenging. I wouldn't do anything else now. I can't
even imagine my corporate life seemed like it was a
different life. You know, I can't imagine going back into
big business and working for someone else, Like I love
being my own BOSSU that met. It is so hard
(41:03):
some days, and I think nothing really quite prepares you
for that, and that how much you have to give
up to be that. And in some ways it's like
having kids. You know, no one people can tell you
and give you all the advice, but until you're in it,
you can't really experience. You know, that is one of
(41:24):
the most difficult jobs.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, you can't experience how tough it is. All the
joy yeah as well, Yeah, in moments and what really
excites you.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Ah, I mean there's already things, you know, even the
smallest wins these days, you know, you're just like, oh
my god, that's so cool. You get an email from
someone who tells you how much they love AF. I
got a comment the other day from someone saying, you know,
af's really like literally changed my life because you know,
I had to stop drinking and this has been the
(41:56):
one thing that's really helped me. And so it's those
kind of that kind of feedback or even you know,
when I've had young Asian women, you know, message me
and say it's so great seeing a female Asian entrepreneur
like you, you know, because there aren't that many around,
and you're like, oh wow, you know, like I never
(42:19):
thought I would have that kind of impact on others.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, you can experience how tough it is or the
joy of it as well. The Golden Moments that was
Lisa King from AF Drinks. Just love how candid she
was about highs and lows of her experience as a
business owner. If you want to hear more stories about
what it's really like to be a boss, make sure
you check out Bosses Unfiltered on iHeartRadio or wherever you
(42:45):
get your podcasts. Catch you next time.
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