March 22, 2025 • 36 mins
All parents send their children to school with the hopes of high results and great values, but which are they prioritising?
Special character schools are significantly different from the public school system - and state schools may have a few things to learn.
Rockley Montgomery is the principal of Vanguard Military School and he joins to discuss the place that character schools hold in the education system.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage.
By the way, if you've missed any of the previous hours,
then you can go and check out our podcast podcasts
for the Weekend Collective. We had have very fun, very fun.
That's terrible, that's terrible grammar. We had a lot of
fun on the panel today with never Ready Marnho and
Mark Kreisel covering a bunch of topics, but it was
(00:44):
just we had had a few good laughs as well.
So if you want to go and check that out
for a little bit of entertainment, then go to iHeartRadio,
the News Talks website and check out the podcast. Now,
this is the Parents Squad and we have a new
guest on the show. We'd like to welcome new guests,
and we're going to be a being a chat about
a bunch of issues around and schools and kids needs
(01:07):
and does one size for it all? But also when
it comes to a school and what they teach your kids,
the balance between getting the results and values. Is it
more important to you that your kids learn values or look,
it's not a trade off one versus the other. What
you wanted to do is probably learn values which you
think are going to stand them a good stead for
their lives, but also get good results. But I think
(01:28):
sometimes it gets a bit confused that whether people get
caught up with the balance of these things. But we're
going to be having a chat about that. And the
new guest we have in the studio with me. He
is the principle of Vanguard Military School. Sorry before I
said Vanguard Military Academy because I was searching for words
and it didn' never in front of me. Vanguard Military School,
(01:50):
which was formerly a charter school but now is a
special character school in the way that many Catholic schools
are of course special characters schools as well. And his
name is Rockley Montgomery and Rockley Hey, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
How are you good afternoon?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So tell us about the well, a little bit about
you first, I guess, because we can learn about Vanguard
Military School. But how long have you been involved in education?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
For well, I've been in education for a long time. Actually,
I started teaching in nineteen eighty three, but then I
took an extended break as a professional sports person and
moved to New Zealand thirty years ago from South Africa.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Hold it a sports person? Are you famous for other reasons?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Then?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I don't know about too famous now. But I came
to New Zealand and won the Coast to Coast a
few years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh back in the days when it was that was
been quite a new event, wouldn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, yeah, tryathon was fairly new when I started. It's
not new now. And yeah, so I was a professional
professional triathlete for quite a few years.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
And then just before coming over to New Zealand, I
decided to get back into education. A bit of a
security thing, not you know, New Zealand not being big
enough to sort of how can I say, support numerous sports.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
People get a regular gig.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yeah, so yeah, and basically came in. I've been in
teaching ever since.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
What was I mean? When people make a decision around
Korean and you have to be passionate about what you're
doing when you go into what I would call a
vocation like nursing or teaching or whatever. What was it
that when what it was it that attracted you to education?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Well, it's sort of happened by accident, actually, I got
sports bursaries to go to university as an athlete, and
I was studying movement sciences and then someone said to me, well,
you can convert that into a teaching thing. So I
decided to switch it to a teaching the sort of degree,
(03:54):
and then that's that's where it started.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Okay, will you speak? Did you specialize in a particular subject?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, and so I think you have a number of objects.
I mean one of them is pedagogy. If you're doing
an education degree, what.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Is the magic where pedagogy hang on? What is that?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Peter Goodge is really the science of teaching and learning,
and pretty much everything hinges on that. It doesn't matter
what you're doing, it's how you teach it and getting
the optimal results for the learners.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay, and you've been at we'll talk about about the
sort of birth and the evolution of Vanguard Military School.
But so how long have you been at the military
school for?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Well, basically since the start we started the school.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, and it started originally as a charter school and
the rules changed and everything it became now it's a
special character school. Correct. So what what what? What was
the genesis for Vanguard?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Well, it was Basically it was basically the brainchild of
a guy called Nick, and he came from a PTO
and he saw the benefits of basically giving young people
another choice. You know, many a kids were struggling in
mainstream and he saw this as a as a as
(05:21):
a an option, and I think quite a few people
saw it. They started up quite a few schools and
they seem to work pretty well.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So how does how does it differ from or did
it or does it differ? Because I gathered from our
conversations we had before before the show started that really
it's still essentially the same school it was when it
was a charter school to what it is now. So
what need was it meeting or what does it do
differently that might attract people to the school?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Well, basically, if you want to have a designated special
character school, it has to be significantly different from a
standard state school. And because the charter school was significantly different,
there wasn't a huge amount of modification to just carry
it on as we were.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Doing it for And so what is the significantly different?
But what are the things that you would.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And we're going to need the whole time to explain that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
But I think the thing is we see I think
this is useful because I think we see a lot
of the time we see schools on the news and
you don't really learn much about it. You just see
Vanguard Military Academy and they focus on the discipline and
things like that, and it doesn't really tell us much
about what it's like to be at the school.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Well, you know, basically, I think there's a few key things, and.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That is that's a school of choice.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So the students that turn up there, they want to
come there, their parents have to want them to come
as well. And then we are offering a product that
is specific and unconditional. Basically, that's it. You know, that's
your choice. And it's a bit like sort of purchasing
(06:58):
a piece of clothing. You know, you walk into a store,
you see a jacket or a suit or whatever it
is you want to buy, and that's the color, that's
the size, that's the material, that's the quality, and you
take it or leave it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So what do people think they're signing up for? Then
they know exactly what they say, what are they signing
up for?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
They sign about it a fourteen page Agreemently, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
We're not going to read out the agreement now, But essentially,
how would you describe to me if people wanting to
come here, what are they expecting to get out of
the school.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Well, they're basically expecting their kids to arrive at the
school and get developed from whatever level they're at. As
you said right at the start, you know, one size
does not fit all, and we are a school that
has no zone and we take kids from all over Auckland,
and as a result of that, we have a very
very mixed ability group when they arrive at our school.
(07:47):
And as a result of that, we have to have
systems in place to cater for every single kid. And
our focus is not on groups, it's on individuals. We
have pathway plans for every single kid and we basically
our job is to make them successful.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
How many how many students have you go?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Well, we kept it one, nine, two, and from what
years we senior high school, so it's year eleven, twelve,
and thirteen.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yea. And who chooses to go there? As you say
that you have to choose to go there? Who drives
the choice? Commonly? Is it something that comes from the
kids or the parents?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yeah, I think more from the parents, but those very
dedicated kids. It often comes from them.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Do you ever have kids sort of who you get
a sense don't really want to come, but they're sort
of like our well, mum and dad really want me to.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
So definitely at the start wherever a huge amount of those.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Kids and how does that sort of how do you
how does that journey go for them?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Generally quite interestingly, because first of all, if they arrived
there and last the first three or four days of induction.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, they'll stay forever.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Okay, So any kid that really doesn't want to be
there will leave within a day or two. And after
that you literally have to throw them out there they
don't want to leave off.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So what are the what's specific about those days of induction?
What's involved that they might find challenging?
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, everything's challenging in those first few days. I mean,
we challenge them in every aspect, and we're showing them
what the school is all about.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
We're teaching them.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
You see, we don't just tell kids what to do.
We actually teach them how to do it. We run
a military style sort of program. They have a parade
in the morning, they have to learn to march, they
have to learn to move around the school with a protocol.
They go into classes with protocols.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
They run their.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Classes, for instance, moving around from class to class with
and a protocol. Does What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Well, basically, they come out of class, they have to
keep left, keep quiet. We're in a building that's quite
quite narrow. They move directly to their next class. They
don't carry their phones around, which now actually the law
is you can't carry your phones around, but they never
have to do that anyway. They can't go off to
the loose, they can't go down to their lockers. They
move directly to class. They line up in lines, they
(10:03):
wait for instructions. And that brings us to a very
important point is our educational model focuses very strongly on
direct instructional teaching.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And direct instructional teaching. Okay, that doesn't mean much to me.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Actually, well, what it basically means is you don't just
facilitate teaching. You don't basically say, two kids, okay, y
has what you've got to do up there as your
computer or if you go. We will basically say this
is what you've got to do. We will run through
it step by step, and then we'll start teaching them
how to do it. A good analogy is driving a car.
(10:38):
Imagine trying to teach your son or daughter to drive
a car and you say, okay, you sit in the
lounge and say can Now when you go out, this
is how you open the door. You turn the key
like this, You put your foot on this. It's called
the clutch.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
You this is the gears. Right off you go. They're
not going to do very well.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
There'd be some people at conventional schools and say, well,
you're sounding like you're describing something that we do do
as well, that they are teachers, lead lead people through
the steps, you know, just that you have a very deliberate,
prescriptive model that you follow, where maybe the conventional school
systems that other schools that are not special character schools
(11:14):
slightly different all these.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, yes and no. You know, we have a unique
system that is supposed to be quite innovative technically, it's not. Now,
it's what you and I went to at school. It's
as simple as that. All we do is we are
using systems and processes that are tried and proved, have
been used successfully for you know, decades, and so have.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
We moved away from that with much of our schooling
that we've moved away from our.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Schooling has and you know, I'm not getter ready to
discuss the negatives of normal education. I mean, I think,
for example, our current minister is doing a fantastic job,
you know, straightening up the mess, if you want to
call it that, But our education is not in a
good place. I mean I think we've been you know,
we've been honest enough over the last sort of five
six years to start realizing that it's not you know,
(12:04):
we used to have a world class education twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well this is, this is I don't think this is
particularly controversial. I think there are a lot of questions,
and we do have a minister who's working. I mean,
if anyone gives the impression of being into her portfolio
one hundred percent at Seraha Stanford, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Without doubt, without doubt? And I mean there's you know,
she has raally got to the core of it because
a lot of the problems are potentially systemic problems rather
than anything else. You know, we don't focus on that
at our school because we're lucky enough to have the
ability to set our school up the way we want
being a special character and it works perfectly for the
(12:40):
model that we use.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Gosh, there's so many questions I've got, but look, actually,
well let's keep We'll keep going ahead with us. I
want to, Okay, the kids who don't want to come,
and then they they if they survive. The induction is
that because there is a part of the discipline and
the expectation and I mean, I'm not sure that the
(13:04):
uniformity thing, but is it because they also are attracted
to Ultimately, a school has to be a community. It
can't just be a bunch of sort of hard rules
where step out of line and see you later. Is it?
Because is that an important part of it for Vangalden
Military School as well the sense of community they gain
by being part of the team.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Most definitely, our big focus is about team, about family,
about support. The kids that come there, within no time
start feeling the you could say, the camaraderie of all
the other students. They feel part of something, their self esteem.
We work on what we call atomic habits, little tiny
(13:44):
things that you add up. You know, a lot of
times you'll find educators that say, ah, don't sweat those
little things, They're not really important. Whereas we believe the opposite.
All those tiny little things add up and become important things.
You make those small things autonomous.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
What are those what's an example of those things?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Like wearing your uniform correctly, being proud of it, you know,
doing your exercise regularly, behaving in class so that you
know the teacher can actually start teaching. Now they're not
spending I don't know, fifty sixty seventy percent of their
time sorting out discipline and you know that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
What are they I mean, because obviously you'd have to
have this. We're all governed by the same rules and
laws around discipline and things. I guess is it easier
to discipline kids because you have got there buy in
at an early stages. This is what we represent and
so that whereas I don't know what the difference would
be in the other sort of schools where things go wrong,
(14:43):
But how big a discipline? How do we sort of
how do we get there? Because you've got the license
to set those expectations. Where there's other schools it's I
don't know, I don't know how, I don't know where
I'm getting from this, But where have we gone wrong
with discipline?
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Well, technically, Tom It's actually of an interesting question because
we have what we call high expectations. We say to
them from you know, any kid that joins our school
finds out from day one exactly what we expect. We
give them very clearly, you know, a very good picture
of this is what we're going to give you, this
is what we expect in return. Now, we don't discipline
(15:23):
our kids as such, so basically we are we call
it corrective training. Were training them to do it correctly, correctly,
and it starts with very small, minor little you know,
sort of it's not even punishments. It's just you forget
your pen, you get corrective training. You don't walk in
(15:45):
a straight line, you get corrective training. But you can
get a whole bunch of those in a term, and
at the start of the next term they all washed
away and you start again. And the motivation is in
being able to behave and carry out your you could say,
your daily activities without making those little mistakes. And it's
lessons that give them. It gives them pride, it gives
(16:08):
them a sense of achievement. When wow, I had fifteen
cts in the first term and now I've only got eight,
And then in the third term. Wow, I've only got
two and that you know, it's like it's sort of
it's all those little wins we give them literally from
day one that makes them feel good about themselves. We
get parents regularly telling us their kids come home and
(16:28):
they are a different kid. You can't recognize our kids.
You know, what have you sort of done to them?
And it's not us, it's they are buying in and
as a result of that the success is coming.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What sort of it. Did you go through a similar
education yourself when you were growing up? Or was it
just the fact that when we is that would I
have gone through a similar thing? Because times have changed
if you go back thirty.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Years or something, the way our kids are sort of
treated at our school's exactly the education I got.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Okay, we'd love your calls on this as well, But
in particular, when it comes time to pick a school
to send your kids to, do you prioritize what do
you look for? Are you looking for a school that's
going to teach them the right values or are you
just going to look at the results that you think
you're going to get out of it. And we might
dig into that a little bit more because it does
sound like a confusing question because really you want kids
(17:17):
to have good results and does that come from the
values and all that sort of thing. So we'll dig
into that but more. My guest is Rockley Montgomery. He's
the principal of Vanguard Military School. If you've got any
questions for for Rockley, then give us a call. If
you've got some curiosity about the way Vanguard goes about
it's business and educating our kids, then we'd love to
(17:37):
hear from you. On eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
text two it's twenty five past five News Talks.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
He'd be.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, Welcome back to the parents Squad. My guest is
Rocky Montgomery. Here is the principal of Vanguard Military School,
and we're finding I've got some lots of questions around
you know, what you might look for in a school
and when it comes time to pick a school to
send your kids, and do you prioritize results or values? Actually,
just before we go to our coller, Rockley, when I mean,
that's such a it's a strange sounding question. But some
(18:39):
parents do send their kids to a school because, for instance,
a Catholic school, and they will send them there because
they want them to have some sort of religious instruction.
They would assume there's a moral set of moral values
that gets imparted to the children. Would they do that
in absence of the results. I would think that most
parents would still be thinking, Okay, I'll send them to
a Catholic school. But let's see what the results are. No, No,
(19:01):
not that one, We'll go to this one. I mean,
whether you balance the results and values in terms of
why people send their kids to a school like a
vanguard military school.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
To be honest, if you look at any traditional school
that's considered a good school, they have that well balanced
the values and basically you could say the effect of
learning is strongly pushed at those kind of schools, and
as a result of that, the results come. You know,
they get good results because if a kid has got
(19:36):
the good attitude they behave in class, they focused in class,
they're going to do well. So from my point of
view is you can't actually divorce those two things because
if you don't have the right attitude, now you're not
going to put the work in.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You're not going to get the results.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, let's take some calls Colin.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Today, Hi Kim I just was wondering. It's called a
multi school, correct, And when I was going to school,
we had military training high schools back what fifty years ago,
and I just want to do teach drill and shooting.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Good evening to Yes, we don't shoot, Sorry, we don't
actually do shooting, but we definitely teach druel. So the
kind of schooling that you had fifty years ago would
be very very close to what we do.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
We had cadets, band, parade, the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yep, that's exactly what Van God does.
Speaker 6 (20:32):
Oh, you have your own band then.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
A band? What do you mean band as a as
a as a brass band, a music band.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
Yeah, well marching band.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Well, we don't have a formal one, but we've got
students and we've had former students that are in you
know bands that you know, sort of marching band, the
side drum and you know, all those kinds of things. Yeah,
and we use them probably at graduation parades only.
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Oh I see, No, I was just trying to give
an idea. We used to mass parade. So but what
do you have many ex military officers working there as
teachers or are you in the military yourself?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yes, I was in the military myself, but we don't
have a large amount of them. We've you know, we've
got at the moment we've got two x military. Earlier
last year this time we had four, but at the
moment we've only got two. The military ethos and training
methodology is what the school's based on. So the kind
of things that you would you would experience when you're
(21:32):
learning in a military environment is what we use. So
the sort of things like discipline and and all those
little small things like uniform and that that that sort
of makes the difference and.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
We use that.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Okay, that's great, Just just wondering about because of the
name basically okay.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Cheers Colin. Yeah, I mean military is it more about
the discipline for you? With military?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, it's the ethos now, I mean when you when
you talk about military ethos, it's it's a lot of
people don't really understand what that is.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
But it's the common maaraderie. It's the teamwork.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's the bonding, you know, direct instruction, it's that what
to do, how to do, and what is expected of
you at the end of the day.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
The team work. You know, why do.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
You work in a team? How do you work effectively
in a team. You know, what do you learn when
you're working in a team. You know you've got to
give support to others and you've got to accept support
from others. It's that becoming a good citizen type thing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Okay, got a couple of texts here. One says Tim.
We witness Vanguard military training military sorry, Vanguard training groups
at our local beach in Cheltenham earlier this year, military
style exercise mixed with the leadership challenges, teamwork and humor,
great stuff ps and motto on some of the gears
said discipline yourself, something like discipline yourself so others don't
have to love it, best wishes and keep it up.
(22:56):
Says Barry.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Is that, yes, well it's not one motto. We've got
heaps of those guys. He's actually pulled on a very
very good one, and that is, you know, you discipline
yourself and no one else has to. It's one of
the it's one of our sort of key things is
that you actually empower yourself when you discipline yourself, because
you are in control, you lead yourself. And we do
(23:19):
go down there and a lot of a lot of
the locals come and have a good look at it,
and it's good.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, do you think, I mean, look, it's difficult to
sort of navigate the difference between other scores. But do
you think that's one of the problems in our education
at the moment, is there's not enough discipline or we're
not able to discipline. Well, I'm trying to find a
way of asking it because we don't have corporal punishment
and things like that. But in terms of discipline, teacher
(23:45):
is generally not as free to discipline kids in the
way that you might feel you get the signing for
when the kids come to your school.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yes and no.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
The thing is, I do you know I do you
sort of sympathize with most teachers is that you spend
a lot of time managing the behavior in your class,
and you therefore spend a lot less time actually teaching
your kids. We lucky enough to have a system where
the students have the buy in and the expectations are
set and there are consequences for not meeting those expectations.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It is different, I guess for states, of course, because
everyone has everyone's in tolged with in education, and not
everyone has to sign up to us. You know, they
basically have to turn up and how do you manage
that if you're not within a special character school where
you have the ability to say these are the terms
and conditions which we are setting for education. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Well, one of the things that's also a very strong,
you could say component of our school is we work
very closely with our community. Our parents are actually part
of our team and we rely on them enormously. They
if without them, we actually wouldn't get what we get.
And the other part is obviously also our teachers. We
have amazing teachers that their focus is about the kid. Now,
(25:01):
if they are in the classroom and we have protocols
that don't allow the kids to behave in a certain
way which is unacceptable, it allows the kids and the
teacher to function optimally or far better.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Okay, say, for instance, somebody is slipping on a couple
of standards and things that's expected of them. How how
do you go about what's what's the protocol or the
I'm not sure if the words routine, the process, the
process that's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Well, we have a number of those. We have a
very unique education system in that we don't allow any
kids to fall behind so one of the things probably
the kids listening to the show will love. We don't
have homework because you send homework home. The kids that
don't need to do it, the kids that don't really
need it but have got good parents do it the parents,
(25:51):
and the kids that need it don't do it, so
you know, the next day the teachers spending half her
period trying to sort out who didn't do their homework.
So there's no point in that. What we do is
if a kid falls behind today, they stay after our
school technically can stayour o'clock. Our teachers are available till
four o'clock, but the kids can leave at three if
they finished. But we have what's known as an academic catchup.
(26:13):
So if you for you know, you five minutes behind the.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Rest of the class.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Because every kid is different, especially when they arrive at
our school, they at different levels, so they can go
into a supervised.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Environment to do their homework.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
What if someone is actually struggling, because you get kids
who are children who are gifted, and you know very
can take on advanced concepts much and there are children
who may be academically struggle. How do you handle those?
Is it about setting different expectation in terms of the
level they're going to meet, because everyone's got different levels.
Some people are going to exceed and some people are
(26:48):
going to struggle. So how do you cope with kids
who are struggling without feeling that they are being punished
or corrected.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Yeah, well, basically we do what most state schools don't
do is that we stream kids. Because we've got a
very narrow curriculum and we've got compulsory subjects. You don't
have a choice of opting out of English, Maths, pe
you know, those kind of key subjects. You can't say
I don't want to do that, so you have to
do it. And we understand that kids will arrive at
(27:16):
our school way way, you know, sort of way off
in terms of where they should be. We get kids
that are two three years behind the year eleven standard
and they have to start somewhere. So what we do
is we have a differentiated system. We have the kids,
we just separate them. Kids that are like you say,
gifted and are flying, they go with their group, and
(27:37):
the ones that are struggling they go with their group.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Well that I mean, that's an easy topic of conversation
for people to get their heads around, because why do
we move away from streaming? Was it because of some
sort of I mean you might not. I mean the
why is maybe not even part of it. Should we
have moved away from Was it a mistake to move
away from streaming in our state system? Because I think
part of it was that we didn't want to label
people as you're the ones who aren't so smart, and
(28:00):
you're the ones who are really smart. And then so
we stopped streaming and everyone's in together.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Yeah. But the thing is you've got to look at
the kid. I mean, which is worse for the kid
to fail and you know, become very despondent or to
be in a class where they get the support they need.
And with our system, they fluctuate up and down. You know,
you're not stuck in that class and there you are.
Everyone starts and if you progress faster, you move up.
(28:26):
If you're progressing slower, you can move down. It just
makes the child comfortable. You know, they work at the
pace that they good at. They don't have to force
themselves their kids. You know what gifted and talented is
like the smart kids get bored as anything, and they
lose interest and you know, they play up. So for them,
they get extended. They can go as hard as they like.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Okay, we're going to take some more cause I've got
a text. We'll get some challenging texts as well. So
I just read this one up. I'm sure you can
cap with it all. Sorry, guys, the schooling is simply
training robots. We're not the same mentally as one Night's.
We've probably answered this a bit. It says one size,
not for at all. And that's Krly says, O send
the kids there, well, which you'd be happy with because
you don't have to send your kids there. Well technically
(29:09):
caox accusation.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Well for Karli, technically is if he doesn't want a
kid to come there, we can't actually take a kid.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It's against the law. So go to your school, you
go to.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
I guess, but what if people were thinking, look, I
like the sound of this, but they hear the military aspect.
I mean, where's in terms of individualism and all that
sort of thing that some people's perspective would be, it's
sort of putting it's putting everyone into a sort of box.
This is how we are. How would you respond to
those concerns.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Well, I'd say it's not like that because we basically
cater for individuals.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
So you can call it two hundred boxes if you like.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Well, that's funny, that's interesting, because that's that would be
the concern that Carl has mentioned that everyone's going to
be the same. But you are saying, so, how do you, yeah,
continue with?
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Everyone has a pathway plan, an individual educational plan that
can be adapted depending on their development. We receive numerous
kids at our school that have got no self confidence,
their development is low. They've been struggling for two or
three years, and it takes them half a year to realize, well,
I'm actually quite smart, and within no time their pathway
(30:21):
plans changing and they're getting ue results, you know, And
so it's really it's up to the kid.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
What's the class ratio in terms of how many students.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
In very small classes we have fifteen or less. And
that is the way that the pastoral care system. We
have one of the strongest pastoral care systems in any
school I know. We have section leaders that are like
your parent another parent at school who doesn't teach you,
potentially they have you and they look after you anything
you need.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Because that is probably a challenge that would be a
struggle to meet in any school just simply because we
don't have enough teachers.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Do we No, But we are we quite lucky as
we are small school. I mean, I will not sort
of say that if you know, if we were Ranguitoo
college size school, you would be able to do what
we do with efficiency that we do. You just wouldn't
need too many teachers. But what we do is very
very effective.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, Hey, we'd love to take your calls on this. Actually,
I'm curious and about the whole thing about streaming, whether
in fact it's a mistake not to stream kids. I
actually personally do believe in streaming. I think that it's
not about labeling kids. I think it's just about meeting
different children with different needs and different skills and abilities.
So what do you reckon? Give us a call on
that eight hundred and eighty ten eighty, and give us
a text as well. Nine two nine two. I'm with
(31:33):
Rockley Montgomery. He is the principal of Vanguard Military School,
with your back in just a moment, News Talks EDB.
This news Talk, SAIDB with Timpervers. My guest is Rockley Montgomery.
He's the Vanguard Military school principle and taking some calls Andrea, Hello, Hello, Hi,
Hi nice we can.
Speaker 7 (31:52):
I just wanted to say my son is in year
eleven currently, and every school so far that he's been
in from the year age five has failed him. He's
fallen behind. He's a disruptive kid. No one's ever takeing
him up on his love of sports and helping the teacher,
so he's become disruptive. So we've put our son, and
he actually agreed to going obviously to Vanguard. Is in
(32:14):
year eleven currently. He's hit a couple of speed bumps,
and I have never seen a school step in and
pick this boy up as much as Vanguard has. They
support the family, they support the parents, our son or
very Yep, he's been a little bit of trouble. He
is proud. He's enjoying the school, although he won't a
bit it. He's doing so much better.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
How much did the experience of the school differ from
when you decided to try singing your child there to
the reality versus expectation?
Speaker 7 (32:48):
Oh all right, it's funny because Vanguard the school that
the locals say, if you don't behave yourself, I'm sending
you to Vanguard. They'll fix you, they'll sort you out,
and we have said that for a few of the years.
And then when you get in there, so your parents
and the kid have to sign up, you go to
an orientation evening. My husband and I actually wanted to
go back to this school. It is just like schooling
(33:09):
in the it's in the olden days. If you, like
my son signed up, you're immediately showing what the school's about,
what the school expects. It's fantastic. I can't praise the
school enough. Ma son every day go to school. He's
got painful legs. He's not going the following day. It's
too hard. He stands up. We've seen him marching down
(33:30):
the hallway practicing drill. He doesn't ever watching him. Son
is proud quietly. So, my son's a tough lab with
the chip on his shoulder. He's marching up and down
our hallway. Yeah, expectations and reality, reality exceed your expectations.
The support we've been offered to help him do well
(33:51):
and actually be good at maths, be good at subject
is fantastic and we're only in turn one.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Oh well, good stuff for Rockley. I mean, you were
smilingly but pleased to hear this.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Feak Jeffy, thank you, Andrew. I'm glad you're very happy
with me.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Yeah, anytime. Just carry on sorting them out, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, okay. And actually it sounds like from what Andrew
is saying that you know that these things are a
long term project as well, Like he's obviously bored into it,
but there's still some challenges. I mean, that's the thing.
It's it's not going to fix someone overnight, is it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
No, Van's not a solvera bullet at all. It's basically
us working with the kid continuously. We don't give up
as long as they don't give.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I just quickly I remark on the streaming thing, because
we I really would have loved to have delvind that
but more. But we've got to wrap up in a second.
But that's that is the problem with streaming is some
people see it as like you're labeling someone, whereas in
fact you're just treating children differently according to their and
somebody who's lousy at one subject might be brilliant at another.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Ya thing as well, You exactly right.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
I mean you can get a kid that's at the
bottom grade in say an English class, but they sit
in the top class in science and maths, you know,
So it's not a label, it's where do you work best.
Would you want your child to be sitting in a
top class and they struggling and they feel, they feel
they're not good enough and their self esteem goes down
(35:18):
the tube? Or would you like them in a class
where they're doing well and they feel.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Is that the strength in the numbers thing. It's like
you said one to fifteen, is that I guess if
a child feels that they've been they're being addressed as
an individual and we're working with you and listen, listen,
we see you for where you're at, and we're working
with you that it's easy for them to feel to
buy into whatever their education is.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Well, you see pedagogy and even if you go as
far as you know, culturally responsive pedagogy, that's what it's
all about. You've got to get to know the kid,
you know. You've got to know what the kid's problems are,
where the kids struggling, where the kid's good, and you've
got to find out what the kid likes so that
you can use that as motivation and getting you know,
(36:01):
that kid into a mode where they want to do
it themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Hey, Rockly Times fires mate, I really appreciate you coming
in to talk with us today. Hopefully we'll get you
back sometime and dig into things a bit more.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yeah, thanks Tom, I've enjoyed it excellent.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
And if people want to learn more about vand government
military score, I'm pretty sure that it'll be pretty you
just google it and start from then or contact the school.
Will that be right?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Well, we're enrolling right now for next year, so anyone
that wants to just put just the sort of paperwork.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
In Okay, good stuff. Okay, we'll be back in just
a minute to wrap sport with Jason Pine. This is
News Talk, said Be It's eleven to six.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
For more from the Weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage.
By the way, if you've missed any of the previous hours,
then you can go and check out our podcast podcasts
for the Weekend Collective. We had have very fun, very fun.
That's terrible, that's terrible grammar. We had a lot of
fun on the panel today with never Ready Marnho and
Mark Kreisel covering a bunch of topics, but it was
(00:44):
just we had had a few good laughs as well.
So if you want to go and check that out
for a little bit of entertainment, then go to iHeartRadio,
the News Talks website and check out the podcast. Now,
this is the Parents Squad and we have a new
guest on the show. We'd like to welcome new guests,
and we're going to be a being a chat about
a bunch of issues around and schools and kids needs
(01:07):
and does one size for it all? But also when
it comes to a school and what they teach your kids,
the balance between getting the results and values. Is it
more important to you that your kids learn values or look,
it's not a trade off one versus the other. What
you wanted to do is probably learn values which you
think are going to stand them a good stead for
their lives, but also get good results. But I think
(01:28):
sometimes it gets a bit confused that whether people get
caught up with the balance of these things. But we're
going to be having a chat about that. And the
new guest we have in the studio with me. He
is the principle of Vanguard Military School. Sorry before I
said Vanguard Military Academy because I was searching for words
and it didn' never in front of me. Vanguard Military School,
(01:50):
which was formerly a charter school but now is a
special character school in the way that many Catholic schools
are of course special characters schools as well. And his
name is Rockley Montgomery and Rockley Hey, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
How are you good afternoon?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So tell us about the well, a little bit about
you first, I guess, because we can learn about Vanguard
Military School. But how long have you been involved in education?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
For well, I've been in education for a long time. Actually,
I started teaching in nineteen eighty three, but then I
took an extended break as a professional sports person and
moved to New Zealand thirty years ago from South Africa.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Hold it a sports person? Are you famous for other reasons?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Then?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I don't know about too famous now. But I came
to New Zealand and won the Coast to Coast a
few years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh back in the days when it was that was
been quite a new event, wouldn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, yeah, tryathon was fairly new when I started. It's
not new now. And yeah, so I was a professional
professional triathlete for quite a few years.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
And then just before coming over to New Zealand, I
decided to get back into education. A bit of a
security thing, not you know, New Zealand not being big
enough to sort of how can I say, support numerous sports.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
People get a regular gig.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yeah, so yeah, and basically came in. I've been in
teaching ever since.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
What was I mean? When people make a decision around
Korean and you have to be passionate about what you're
doing when you go into what I would call a
vocation like nursing or teaching or whatever. What was it
that when what it was it that attracted you to education?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Well, it's sort of happened by accident, actually, I got
sports bursaries to go to university as an athlete, and
I was studying movement sciences and then someone said to me, well,
you can convert that into a teaching thing. So I
decided to switch it to a teaching the sort of degree,
(03:54):
and then that's that's where it started.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Okay, will you speak? Did you specialize in a particular subject?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, and so I think you have a number of objects.
I mean one of them is pedagogy. If you're doing
an education degree, what.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Is the magic where pedagogy hang on? What is that?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Peter Goodge is really the science of teaching and learning,
and pretty much everything hinges on that. It doesn't matter
what you're doing, it's how you teach it and getting
the optimal results for the learners.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay, and you've been at we'll talk about about the
sort of birth and the evolution of Vanguard Military School.
But so how long have you been at the military
school for?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Well, basically since the start we started the school.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, and it started originally as a charter school and
the rules changed and everything it became now it's a
special character school. Correct. So what what what? What was
the genesis for Vanguard?
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Well, it was Basically it was basically the brainchild of
a guy called Nick, and he came from a PTO
and he saw the benefits of basically giving young people
another choice. You know, many a kids were struggling in
mainstream and he saw this as a as a as
(05:21):
a an option, and I think quite a few people
saw it. They started up quite a few schools and
they seem to work pretty well.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So how does how does it differ from or did
it or does it differ? Because I gathered from our
conversations we had before before the show started that really
it's still essentially the same school it was when it
was a charter school to what it is now. So
what need was it meeting or what does it do
differently that might attract people to the school?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Well, basically, if you want to have a designated special
character school, it has to be significantly different from a
standard state school. And because the charter school was significantly different,
there wasn't a huge amount of modification to just carry
it on as we were.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Doing it for And so what is the significantly different?
But what are the things that you would.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
And we're going to need the whole time to explain that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
But I think the thing is we see I think
this is useful because I think we see a lot
of the time we see schools on the news and
you don't really learn much about it. You just see
Vanguard Military Academy and they focus on the discipline and
things like that, and it doesn't really tell us much
about what it's like to be at the school.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Well, you know, basically, I think there's a few key things, and.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That is that's a school of choice.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So the students that turn up there, they want to
come there, their parents have to want them to come
as well. And then we are offering a product that
is specific and unconditional. Basically, that's it. You know, that's
your choice. And it's a bit like sort of purchasing
(06:58):
a piece of clothing. You know, you walk into a store,
you see a jacket or a suit or whatever it
is you want to buy, and that's the color, that's
the size, that's the material, that's the quality, and you
take it or leave it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So what do people think they're signing up for? Then
they know exactly what they say, what are they signing
up for?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
They sign about it a fourteen page Agreemently, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
We're not going to read out the agreement now, But essentially,
how would you describe to me if people wanting to
come here, what are they expecting to get out of
the school.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
Well, they're basically expecting their kids to arrive at the
school and get developed from whatever level they're at. As
you said right at the start, you know, one size
does not fit all, and we are a school that
has no zone and we take kids from all over Auckland,
and as a result of that, we have a very
very mixed ability group when they arrive at our school.
(07:47):
And as a result of that, we have to have
systems in place to cater for every single kid. And
our focus is not on groups, it's on individuals. We
have pathway plans for every single kid and we basically
our job is to make them successful.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
How many how many students have you go?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Well, we kept it one, nine, two, and from what
years we senior high school, so it's year eleven, twelve,
and thirteen.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yea. And who chooses to go there? As you say
that you have to choose to go there? Who drives
the choice? Commonly? Is it something that comes from the
kids or the parents?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yeah, I think more from the parents, but those very
dedicated kids. It often comes from them.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Do you ever have kids sort of who you get
a sense don't really want to come, but they're sort
of like our well, mum and dad really want me to.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
So definitely at the start wherever a huge amount of those.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Kids and how does that sort of how do you
how does that journey go for them?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Generally quite interestingly, because first of all, if they arrived
there and last the first three or four days of induction.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, they'll stay forever.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Okay, So any kid that really doesn't want to be
there will leave within a day or two. And after
that you literally have to throw them out there they
don't want to leave off.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So what are the what's specific about those days of induction?
What's involved that they might find challenging?
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, everything's challenging in those first few days. I mean,
we challenge them in every aspect, and we're showing them
what the school is all about.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
We're teaching them.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
You see, we don't just tell kids what to do.
We actually teach them how to do it. We run
a military style sort of program. They have a parade
in the morning, they have to learn to march, they
have to learn to move around the school with a protocol.
They go into classes with protocols.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
They run their.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Classes, for instance, moving around from class to class with
and a protocol. Does What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Well, basically, they come out of class, they have to
keep left, keep quiet. We're in a building that's quite
quite narrow. They move directly to their next class. They
don't carry their phones around, which now actually the law
is you can't carry your phones around, but they never
have to do that anyway. They can't go off to
the loose, they can't go down to their lockers. They
move directly to class. They line up in lines, they
(10:03):
wait for instructions. And that brings us to a very
important point is our educational model focuses very strongly on
direct instructional teaching.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And direct instructional teaching. Okay, that doesn't mean much to me.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Actually, well, what it basically means is you don't just
facilitate teaching. You don't basically say, two kids, okay, y
has what you've got to do up there as your
computer or if you go. We will basically say this
is what you've got to do. We will run through
it step by step, and then we'll start teaching them
how to do it. A good analogy is driving a car.
(10:38):
Imagine trying to teach your son or daughter to drive
a car and you say, okay, you sit in the
lounge and say can Now when you go out, this
is how you open the door. You turn the key
like this, You put your foot on this. It's called
the clutch.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
You this is the gears. Right off you go. They're
not going to do very well.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
There'd be some people at conventional schools and say, well,
you're sounding like you're describing something that we do do
as well, that they are teachers, lead lead people through
the steps, you know, just that you have a very deliberate,
prescriptive model that you follow, where maybe the conventional school
systems that other schools that are not special character schools
(11:14):
slightly different all these.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, yes and no. You know, we have a unique
system that is supposed to be quite innovative technically, it's not. Now,
it's what you and I went to at school. It's
as simple as that. All we do is we are
using systems and processes that are tried and proved, have
been used successfully for you know, decades, and so have.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
We moved away from that with much of our schooling
that we've moved away from our.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Schooling has and you know, I'm not getter ready to
discuss the negatives of normal education. I mean, I think,
for example, our current minister is doing a fantastic job,
you know, straightening up the mess, if you want to
call it that, But our education is not in a
good place. I mean I think we've been you know,
we've been honest enough over the last sort of five
six years to start realizing that it's not you know,
(12:04):
we used to have a world class education twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well this is, this is I don't think this is
particularly controversial. I think there are a lot of questions,
and we do have a minister who's working. I mean,
if anyone gives the impression of being into her portfolio
one hundred percent at Seraha Stanford, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Without doubt, without doubt? And I mean there's you know,
she has raally got to the core of it because
a lot of the problems are potentially systemic problems rather
than anything else. You know, we don't focus on that
at our school because we're lucky enough to have the
ability to set our school up the way we want
being a special character and it works perfectly for the
(12:40):
model that we use.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Gosh, there's so many questions I've got, but look, actually,
well let's keep We'll keep going ahead with us. I
want to, Okay, the kids who don't want to come,
and then they they if they survive. The induction is
that because there is a part of the discipline and
the expectation and I mean, I'm not sure that the
(13:04):
uniformity thing, but is it because they also are attracted
to Ultimately, a school has to be a community. It
can't just be a bunch of sort of hard rules
where step out of line and see you later. Is it?
Because is that an important part of it for Vangalden
Military School as well the sense of community they gain
by being part of the team.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Most definitely, our big focus is about team, about family,
about support. The kids that come there, within no time
start feeling the you could say, the camaraderie of all
the other students. They feel part of something, their self esteem.
We work on what we call atomic habits, little tiny
(13:44):
things that you add up. You know, a lot of
times you'll find educators that say, ah, don't sweat those
little things, They're not really important. Whereas we believe the opposite.
All those tiny little things add up and become important things.
You make those small things autonomous.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
What are those what's an example of those things?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Like wearing your uniform correctly, being proud of it, you know,
doing your exercise regularly, behaving in class so that you
know the teacher can actually start teaching. Now they're not
spending I don't know, fifty sixty seventy percent of their
time sorting out discipline and you know that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
What are they I mean, because obviously you'd have to
have this. We're all governed by the same rules and
laws around discipline and things. I guess is it easier
to discipline kids because you have got there buy in
at an early stages. This is what we represent and
so that whereas I don't know what the difference would
be in the other sort of schools where things go wrong,
(14:43):
But how big a discipline? How do we sort of
how do we get there? Because you've got the license
to set those expectations. Where there's other schools it's I
don't know, I don't know how, I don't know where
I'm getting from this, But where have we gone wrong
with discipline?
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Well, technically, Tom It's actually of an interesting question because
we have what we call high expectations. We say to
them from you know, any kid that joins our school
finds out from day one exactly what we expect. We
give them very clearly, you know, a very good picture
of this is what we're going to give you, this
is what we expect in return. Now, we don't discipline
(15:23):
our kids as such, so basically we are we call
it corrective training. Were training them to do it correctly, correctly,
and it starts with very small, minor little you know,
sort of it's not even punishments. It's just you forget
your pen, you get corrective training. You don't walk in
(15:45):
a straight line, you get corrective training. But you can
get a whole bunch of those in a term, and
at the start of the next term they all washed
away and you start again. And the motivation is in
being able to behave and carry out your you could say,
your daily activities without making those little mistakes. And it's
lessons that give them. It gives them pride, it gives
(16:08):
them a sense of achievement. When wow, I had fifteen
cts in the first term and now I've only got eight,
And then in the third term. Wow, I've only got
two and that you know, it's like it's sort of
it's all those little wins we give them literally from
day one that makes them feel good about themselves. We
get parents regularly telling us their kids come home and
(16:28):
they are a different kid. You can't recognize our kids.
You know, what have you sort of done to them?
And it's not us, it's they are buying in and
as a result of that the success is coming.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What sort of it. Did you go through a similar
education yourself when you were growing up? Or was it
just the fact that when we is that would I
have gone through a similar thing? Because times have changed
if you go back thirty.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Years or something, the way our kids are sort of
treated at our school's exactly the education I got.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Okay, we'd love your calls on this as well, But
in particular, when it comes time to pick a school
to send your kids to, do you prioritize what do
you look for? Are you looking for a school that's
going to teach them the right values or are you
just going to look at the results that you think
you're going to get out of it. And we might
dig into that a little bit more because it does
sound like a confusing question because really you want kids
(17:17):
to have good results and does that come from the
values and all that sort of thing. So we'll dig
into that but more. My guest is Rockley Montgomery. He's
the principal of Vanguard Military School. If you've got any
questions for for Rockley, then give us a call. If
you've got some curiosity about the way Vanguard goes about
it's business and educating our kids, then we'd love to
(17:37):
hear from you. On eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
text two it's twenty five past five News Talks.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
He'd be.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, Welcome back to the parents Squad. My guest is
Rocky Montgomery. Here is the principal of Vanguard Military School,
and we're finding I've got some lots of questions around
you know, what you might look for in a school
and when it comes time to pick a school to
send your kids, and do you prioritize results or values? Actually,
just before we go to our coller, Rockley, when I mean,
that's such a it's a strange sounding question. But some
(18:39):
parents do send their kids to a school because, for instance,
a Catholic school, and they will send them there because
they want them to have some sort of religious instruction.
They would assume there's a moral set of moral values
that gets imparted to the children. Would they do that
in absence of the results. I would think that most
parents would still be thinking, Okay, I'll send them to
a Catholic school. But let's see what the results are. No, No,
(19:01):
not that one, We'll go to this one. I mean,
whether you balance the results and values in terms of
why people send their kids to a school like a
vanguard military school.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
To be honest, if you look at any traditional school
that's considered a good school, they have that well balanced
the values and basically you could say the effect of
learning is strongly pushed at those kind of schools, and
as a result of that, the results come. You know,
they get good results because if a kid has got
(19:36):
the good attitude they behave in class, they focused in class,
they're going to do well. So from my point of
view is you can't actually divorce those two things because
if you don't have the right attitude, now you're not
going to put the work in.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You're not going to get the results.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, let's take some calls Colin.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Today, Hi Kim I just was wondering. It's called a
multi school, correct, And when I was going to school,
we had military training high schools back what fifty years ago,
and I just want to do teach drill and shooting.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Good evening to Yes, we don't shoot, Sorry, we don't
actually do shooting, but we definitely teach druel. So the
kind of schooling that you had fifty years ago would
be very very close to what we do.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
We had cadets, band, parade, the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yep, that's exactly what Van God does.
Speaker 6 (20:32):
Oh, you have your own band then.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
A band? What do you mean band as a as
a as a brass band, a music band.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
Yeah, well marching band.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Well, we don't have a formal one, but we've got
students and we've had former students that are in you
know bands that you know, sort of marching band, the
side drum and you know, all those kinds of things. Yeah,
and we use them probably at graduation parades only.
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Oh I see, No, I was just trying to give
an idea. We used to mass parade. So but what
do you have many ex military officers working there as
teachers or are you in the military yourself?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yes, I was in the military myself, but we don't
have a large amount of them. We've you know, we've
got at the moment we've got two x military. Earlier
last year this time we had four, but at the
moment we've only got two. The military ethos and training
methodology is what the school's based on. So the kind
of things that you would you would experience when you're
(21:32):
learning in a military environment is what we use. So
the sort of things like discipline and and all those
little small things like uniform and that that that sort
of makes the difference and.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
We use that.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Okay, that's great, Just just wondering about because of the
name basically okay.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Cheers Colin. Yeah, I mean military is it more about
the discipline for you? With military?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, it's the ethos now, I mean when you when
you talk about military ethos, it's it's a lot of
people don't really understand what that is.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
But it's the common maaraderie. It's the teamwork.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's the bonding, you know, direct instruction, it's that what
to do, how to do, and what is expected of
you at the end of the day.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
The team work. You know, why do.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
You work in a team? How do you work effectively
in a team. You know, what do you learn when
you're working in a team. You know you've got to
give support to others and you've got to accept support
from others. It's that becoming a good citizen type thing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Okay, got a couple of texts here. One says Tim.
We witness Vanguard military training military sorry, Vanguard training groups
at our local beach in Cheltenham earlier this year, military
style exercise mixed with the leadership challenges, teamwork and humor,
great stuff ps and motto on some of the gears
said discipline yourself, something like discipline yourself so others don't
have to love it, best wishes and keep it up.
(22:56):
Says Barry.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Is that, yes, well it's not one motto. We've got
heaps of those guys. He's actually pulled on a very
very good one, and that is, you know, you discipline
yourself and no one else has to. It's one of
the it's one of our sort of key things is
that you actually empower yourself when you discipline yourself, because
you are in control, you lead yourself. And we do
(23:19):
go down there and a lot of a lot of
the locals come and have a good look at it,
and it's good.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, do you think, I mean, look, it's difficult to
sort of navigate the difference between other scores. But do
you think that's one of the problems in our education
at the moment, is there's not enough discipline or we're
not able to discipline. Well, I'm trying to find a
way of asking it because we don't have corporal punishment
and things like that. But in terms of discipline, teacher
(23:45):
is generally not as free to discipline kids in the
way that you might feel you get the signing for
when the kids come to your school.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yes and no.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
The thing is, I do you know I do you
sort of sympathize with most teachers is that you spend
a lot of time managing the behavior in your class,
and you therefore spend a lot less time actually teaching
your kids. We lucky enough to have a system where
the students have the buy in and the expectations are
set and there are consequences for not meeting those expectations.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It is different, I guess for states, of course, because
everyone has everyone's in tolged with in education, and not
everyone has to sign up to us. You know, they
basically have to turn up and how do you manage
that if you're not within a special character school where
you have the ability to say these are the terms
and conditions which we are setting for education. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Well, one of the things that's also a very strong,
you could say component of our school is we work
very closely with our community. Our parents are actually part
of our team and we rely on them enormously. They
if without them, we actually wouldn't get what we get.
And the other part is obviously also our teachers. We
have amazing teachers that their focus is about the kid. Now,
(25:01):
if they are in the classroom and we have protocols
that don't allow the kids to behave in a certain
way which is unacceptable, it allows the kids and the
teacher to function optimally or far better.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Okay, say, for instance, somebody is slipping on a couple
of standards and things that's expected of them. How how
do you go about what's what's the protocol or the
I'm not sure if the words routine, the process, the
process that's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Well, we have a number of those. We have a
very unique education system in that we don't allow any
kids to fall behind so one of the things probably
the kids listening to the show will love. We don't
have homework because you send homework home. The kids that
don't need to do it, the kids that don't really
need it but have got good parents do it the parents,
(25:51):
and the kids that need it don't do it, so
you know, the next day the teachers spending half her
period trying to sort out who didn't do their homework.
So there's no point in that. What we do is
if a kid falls behind today, they stay after our
school technically can stayour o'clock. Our teachers are available till
four o'clock, but the kids can leave at three if
they finished. But we have what's known as an academic catchup.
(26:13):
So if you for you know, you five minutes behind the.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Rest of the class.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Because every kid is different, especially when they arrive at
our school, they at different levels, so they can go
into a supervised.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Environment to do their homework.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
What if someone is actually struggling, because you get kids
who are children who are gifted, and you know very
can take on advanced concepts much and there are children
who may be academically struggle. How do you handle those?
Is it about setting different expectation in terms of the
level they're going to meet, because everyone's got different levels.
Some people are going to exceed and some people are
(26:48):
going to struggle. So how do you cope with kids
who are struggling without feeling that they are being punished
or corrected.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Yeah, well, basically we do what most state schools don't
do is that we stream kids. Because we've got a
very narrow curriculum and we've got compulsory subjects. You don't
have a choice of opting out of English, Maths, pe
you know, those kind of key subjects. You can't say
I don't want to do that, so you have to
do it. And we understand that kids will arrive at
(27:16):
our school way way, you know, sort of way off
in terms of where they should be. We get kids
that are two three years behind the year eleven standard
and they have to start somewhere. So what we do
is we have a differentiated system. We have the kids,
we just separate them. Kids that are like you say,
gifted and are flying, they go with their group, and
(27:37):
the ones that are struggling they go with their group.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Well that I mean, that's an easy topic of conversation
for people to get their heads around, because why do
we move away from streaming? Was it because of some
sort of I mean you might not. I mean the
why is maybe not even part of it. Should we
have moved away from Was it a mistake to move
away from streaming in our state system? Because I think
part of it was that we didn't want to label
people as you're the ones who aren't so smart, and
(28:00):
you're the ones who are really smart. And then so
we stopped streaming and everyone's in together.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Yeah. But the thing is you've got to look at
the kid. I mean, which is worse for the kid
to fail and you know, become very despondent or to
be in a class where they get the support they need.
And with our system, they fluctuate up and down. You know,
you're not stuck in that class and there you are.
Everyone starts and if you progress faster, you move up.
(28:26):
If you're progressing slower, you can move down. It just
makes the child comfortable. You know, they work at the
pace that they good at. They don't have to force
themselves their kids. You know what gifted and talented is
like the smart kids get bored as anything, and they
lose interest and you know, they play up. So for them,
they get extended. They can go as hard as they like.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Okay, we're going to take some more cause I've got
a text. We'll get some challenging texts as well. So
I just read this one up. I'm sure you can
cap with it all. Sorry, guys, the schooling is simply
training robots. We're not the same mentally as one Night's.
We've probably answered this a bit. It says one size,
not for at all. And that's Krly says, O send
the kids there, well, which you'd be happy with because
you don't have to send your kids there. Well technically
(29:09):
caox accusation.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Well for Karli, technically is if he doesn't want a
kid to come there, we can't actually take a kid.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It's against the law. So go to your school, you
go to.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
I guess, but what if people were thinking, look, I
like the sound of this, but they hear the military aspect.
I mean, where's in terms of individualism and all that
sort of thing that some people's perspective would be, it's
sort of putting it's putting everyone into a sort of box.
This is how we are. How would you respond to
those concerns.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Well, I'd say it's not like that because we basically
cater for individuals.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
So you can call it two hundred boxes if you like.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Well, that's funny, that's interesting, because that's that would be
the concern that Carl has mentioned that everyone's going to
be the same. But you are saying, so, how do you, yeah,
continue with?
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Everyone has a pathway plan, an individual educational plan that
can be adapted depending on their development. We receive numerous
kids at our school that have got no self confidence,
their development is low. They've been struggling for two or
three years, and it takes them half a year to realize, well,
I'm actually quite smart, and within no time their pathway
(30:21):
plans changing and they're getting ue results, you know, And
so it's really it's up to the kid.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
What's the class ratio in terms of how many students.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
In very small classes we have fifteen or less. And
that is the way that the pastoral care system. We
have one of the strongest pastoral care systems in any
school I know. We have section leaders that are like
your parent another parent at school who doesn't teach you,
potentially they have you and they look after you anything
you need.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Because that is probably a challenge that would be a
struggle to meet in any school just simply because we
don't have enough teachers.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Do we No, But we are we quite lucky as
we are small school. I mean, I will not sort
of say that if you know, if we were Ranguitoo
college size school, you would be able to do what
we do with efficiency that we do. You just wouldn't
need too many teachers. But what we do is very
very effective.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, Hey, we'd love to take your calls on this. Actually,
I'm curious and about the whole thing about streaming, whether
in fact it's a mistake not to stream kids. I
actually personally do believe in streaming. I think that it's
not about labeling kids. I think it's just about meeting
different children with different needs and different skills and abilities.
So what do you reckon? Give us a call on
that eight hundred and eighty ten eighty, and give us
a text as well. Nine two nine two. I'm with
(31:33):
Rockley Montgomery. He is the principal of Vanguard Military School,
with your back in just a moment, News Talks EDB.
This news Talk, SAIDB with Timpervers. My guest is Rockley Montgomery.
He's the Vanguard Military school principle and taking some calls Andrea, Hello, Hello, Hi,
Hi nice we can.
Speaker 7 (31:52):
I just wanted to say my son is in year
eleven currently, and every school so far that he's been
in from the year age five has failed him. He's
fallen behind. He's a disruptive kid. No one's ever takeing
him up on his love of sports and helping the teacher,
so he's become disruptive. So we've put our son, and
he actually agreed to going obviously to Vanguard. Is in
(32:14):
year eleven currently. He's hit a couple of speed bumps,
and I have never seen a school step in and
pick this boy up as much as Vanguard has. They
support the family, they support the parents, our son or
very Yep, he's been a little bit of trouble. He
is proud. He's enjoying the school, although he won't a
bit it. He's doing so much better.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
How much did the experience of the school differ from
when you decided to try singing your child there to
the reality versus expectation?
Speaker 7 (32:48):
Oh all right, it's funny because Vanguard the school that
the locals say, if you don't behave yourself, I'm sending
you to Vanguard. They'll fix you, they'll sort you out,
and we have said that for a few of the years.
And then when you get in there, so your parents
and the kid have to sign up, you go to
an orientation evening. My husband and I actually wanted to
go back to this school. It is just like schooling
(33:09):
in the it's in the olden days. If you, like
my son signed up, you're immediately showing what the school's about,
what the school expects. It's fantastic. I can't praise the
school enough. Ma son every day go to school. He's
got painful legs. He's not going the following day. It's
too hard. He stands up. We've seen him marching down
(33:30):
the hallway practicing drill. He doesn't ever watching him. Son
is proud quietly. So, my son's a tough lab with
the chip on his shoulder. He's marching up and down
our hallway. Yeah, expectations and reality, reality exceed your expectations.
The support we've been offered to help him do well
(33:51):
and actually be good at maths, be good at subject
is fantastic and we're only in turn one.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Oh well, good stuff for Rockley. I mean, you were
smilingly but pleased to hear this.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Feak Jeffy, thank you, Andrew. I'm glad you're very happy
with me.
Speaker 7 (34:10):
Yeah, anytime. Just carry on sorting them out, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, okay. And actually it sounds like from what Andrew
is saying that you know that these things are a
long term project as well, Like he's obviously bored into it,
but there's still some challenges. I mean, that's the thing.
It's it's not going to fix someone overnight, is it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
No, Van's not a solvera bullet at all. It's basically
us working with the kid continuously. We don't give up
as long as they don't give.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I just quickly I remark on the streaming thing, because
we I really would have loved to have delvind that
but more. But we've got to wrap up in a second.
But that's that is the problem with streaming is some
people see it as like you're labeling someone, whereas in
fact you're just treating children differently according to their and
somebody who's lousy at one subject might be brilliant at another.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Ya thing as well, You exactly right.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
I mean you can get a kid that's at the
bottom grade in say an English class, but they sit
in the top class in science and maths, you know,
So it's not a label, it's where do you work best.
Would you want your child to be sitting in a
top class and they struggling and they feel, they feel
they're not good enough and their self esteem goes down
(35:18):
the tube? Or would you like them in a class
where they're doing well and they feel.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Is that the strength in the numbers thing. It's like
you said one to fifteen, is that I guess if
a child feels that they've been they're being addressed as
an individual and we're working with you and listen, listen,
we see you for where you're at, and we're working
with you that it's easy for them to feel to
buy into whatever their education is.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Well, you see pedagogy and even if you go as
far as you know, culturally responsive pedagogy, that's what it's
all about. You've got to get to know the kid,
you know. You've got to know what the kid's problems are,
where the kids struggling, where the kid's good, and you've
got to find out what the kid likes so that
you can use that as motivation and getting you know,
(36:01):
that kid into a mode where they want to do
it themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Hey, Rockly Times fires mate, I really appreciate you coming
in to talk with us today. Hopefully we'll get you
back sometime and dig into things a bit more.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yeah, thanks Tom, I've enjoyed it excellent.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
And if people want to learn more about vand government
military score, I'm pretty sure that it'll be pretty you
just google it and start from then or contact the school.
Will that be right?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Well, we're enrolling right now for next year, so anyone
that wants to just put just the sort of paperwork.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
In Okay, good stuff. Okay, we'll be back in just
a minute to wrap sport with Jason Pine. This is
News Talk, said Be It's eleven to six.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
For more from the Weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks It'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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