December 11, 2025 • 32 mins
Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks are joined by former NFL GM Tom Telesco for a deep dive into how front offices evaluate players and team needs as the NFL and college seasons wind down. Tom opens up about Philip Rivers' courageous return to the NFL at the age of 44. The guys also break down the young quarterbacks who’ve impressed them this season, the most overlooked phase of the draft process, and which position proved toughest to scout during their front office careers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Welcome to Move the Sticks, DJ, Bucky joined by our
good friend Tom to LESCo. Tom, we appreciate you jumping
on with us again here man.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
What you've been up to? Yeah, no, thanks for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Just trying to stay active and busy, trying, you know,
watch some college guys and watching the NFL and just
trying to stay engaged as much as I can.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
What do you go back through your your years as
general manager, Tom, when you're in this time, this time
of the season, we're coming down the home stretch. Take
us a little bit of a behind the curtain here
as you're trying to monitor where your team is and
you can sniff the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You're not there yet, but you can sniff it. Well.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You have to prepare like you're going to be in
the playoffs because you've got a pro scouting staff that
has to have the advanced scouting of the teams.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You could be playing in the playoffs.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So December scouting from the pro side was always really
fun because you send your guys on the road for
potential maybe a team you haven't seen yet this year
to kind of get ready for that or team maybe
you saw early.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
In the year, because that has to be done.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
If you're in the wildcard team, that stuff has to
be done right after the last game of the year.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So you've got that going on.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You're still trying to solidify your roster just as strong
as you can make it from the practice squad all
the way up to make sure if there's an injury that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Happens, you can at least backfill it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So you're always working on that and then you know,
you know it's still important, but it's not a little
bit of a back burner. Is December is a big
month for the college scouts as far as some early
meetings on some players kind of get the draft board.
Kind of the draft board kind of starts to set
itself in the fall, but in December you can kind
of get it moved around a little bit, do a
lot of character work backgroun on players. So there's college
(01:43):
scouting meetings that are going on concurrently with the season,
and as a GM you kind of have to have
your hand in a little bit of everything. But certainly
the team on the field is the most important part
of this year and just making sure you're ready for
the playoffs, both roster wise and just intelligence wise.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
You know, Tim, I want to go to the college
side because DJNI are so familiar with that part of it.
So now in the new landscape, before we used to
really treat conference championship games, bowl games were like that
last Look, how do you treat that now? When your
scouts are talking about conference games guys not playing in
bowl games?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Like, does it matter at all? Do you care? What's
your state on that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I mean as far as not playing the games, that
doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
But you're right.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I mean a while ago, like the bowl games were
great evaluation tools for players because they usually have a
time off in between their last regular season game and
the bowl game, so they're fresh, they're ready to go,
and it's usually a good opponent.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So it was a great evaluation of the players.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
But nowadays so few NFL prospects playing the bowl games,
you kind of throw it out.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I mean, every now and.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Then you get lucky that, you know, you go to
a bowl game and you're seeing players maybe for two
years down the road. I was at the Holiday Bowl
a couple of years ago when bow Nicks played against
Drake May. Okay, neither we're going to be in that
draft that just happened to be there to look at
other players, but mostly prospects that were eligible didn't play
in that game. Conference championship game is still great, you know,
because you're playing good versus good usually, So those are
(03:07):
those are good evaluation tools. And then you know, for
most of the college guys, the reports usually do and
you know about mid December, right about now, where you
have everything basically done conference shipship games. Now we'll extend
it for these playoff games because again it's good on good.
These are great evaluation views for players and start to
(03:30):
put the whole thing together and put a bow on it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Later on, where'd you stand on the you know, whether
this is just one another data point or was there
more importance placed on what you saw, especially now that
we have a playoff Let's just focus on that. How
these guys perform in this setting.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, you don't want to have too much recency bias,
but it's you know, obviously a little easier last thing
you see sometimes you remember the most. But I think
it's important. I mean, these are big, pressurized games. I
was talking with somebody that the other day about about
Riley Lennard. You know, probably a Leonard went through the
playoffs last year. One playoff games, you know, you know, big, big,
big leverage games. So that was a great experience for
(04:07):
him as a quarterback. So yeah, I mean they're important,
very important because you know that the pressure is there.
This isn't you know, you're you're not you're not playing
at enough CS school. So certainly a big part of
it is just but you do try and balance the
whole thing. It take their whole career, the whole body
of work, and and and go from there.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I'm glad you brought up Ridley Leonard because it's interesting
to watch him in the playoffs and then last week
I was on the field, but he got a chance
to start being Annapolis so and thinking back to his
playoff run and how he played Mendoza, Fernando Mendoz Is
don't have a chance to Simpsons, don't have a chance.
Some of these other quarterbacks don't have the chance to
make a last long push. Naymore like how do you
balance You talk about their recency balance, the recency bias,
(04:47):
but how do you balance these big games because they
are as close to an NFL game as.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
You can get. Yeah, that's fucky that.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's the great point is these games are like NFL
games because of the pressure around them, the amount of
eyes on them.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So yeah, they're big and and it's there.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It's you try and take the body of work, obviously,
but these playoff games are as much like an NFL
Every NFL game is a huge game. So these playoff games,
the caliber of the teams you're playing for those quarterbacks,
the caliber of the defenses they're going to play, the
amount of time those teams have to have time to
get ready, you know, to play, you know, to play
Indiana's offense, so he may see some things that he
(05:27):
didn't see during the regular season, which is like, which
is the way the NFL is every week. So yeah,
these are great tools. Thank god some of these quarterbacks
are playing in the playoffs. It just gives you more information.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, absolutely, it's going to be fun to fun evaluation
opportunity for those guys. I want to take the bridge
from Riley Leonard to the guy who's going to be
replacing Riley len I shouldn't say guy said it's a
grandfather that's going to be replacing a Riley Leonard Philip Rivers.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Nobody knows him as well.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
As you do, Tom, all the years you spent together
with the Chargers watching him play. I've tried to caution
people that have just laughed this whole thing off, versus saying, hey,
I know. I think it was like they're two touchdown
underdogs at Seattle. I know Seattle's defense and whether or not.
I'm like, look, the second week is another thing, and
see how his body can recover.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
But maybe I'm in the minority.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I'm like, for one week, I think Philip Rivers might
be able to screen his.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Way to a close game up there in Seattle.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Tell you what, I was with Philip for seven years,
Shane Stiken for eight I should have known better this's
gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
I mean I was.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I was doing a live radio interview Monday morning before
any of this broke. I was on with Doug Gottlieb
and Fox Sports Radio and we're talking about Daniel Jones's
injury and he asked me, He's like, hey, do you
think the Colts would reach out to Philip Rivers? And
I gave him one of these I'm like, he's been
out a football for five years.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
That's not gonna have. So that I talked about Riley
Leonard for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I thought, Rolly Leonard played played really well last week,
So talk about Riley Leonard. And then I think a
couple hours later, it kind of comes out that Philip
was gonna work out for the Colts, and I'm like, oh,
I'm supposed to be the expert analyst.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But I'll tell you what, from a fan standpoint, is fascinating.
When I put my GM hat on, I'm like, you know,
it's not just he's playing at forty four, it is
that he hasn't played in five years. So to me,
like the Time Brady comparison is not a comparison because
Time Brady was active the whole time. So, you know,
I was just concerned about, you know, the movement skill.
It's concerned about you know, reaction times. If you're off
(07:26):
just a millisecond. In the NFL, it's a big difference.
Concerned about soft tissue injury or worse. But then I
watched the press conference yesterday that Philip did and had
me convinced.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I'm like, let's hell, why not.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And that's the way Philip is like, I'm watching that
and I'm thinking all the reasons why you maybe you
shouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And then I'm like, he's got me, like, yeah, let's go.
Let's see. That's how he plays, That's how he plays.
Don't worry about the results. Just go off there and
let it rip. Buck. That's this guy that must see TV.
I can't wait watch I cannot wait to watch it either.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Man, I'm so I'm so skeered for him, just in
terms of like everybody who's ever played anything always believed
they still got a little left, and I'm just worried.
Five years away from the game Philip talked about, I'm
not at my playing weight, I'm about twenty miles. I
just I'm just fearful of him having to move around
and something bad happened. Even though I love the Maxie,
(08:19):
I love his gun slinging ways all of that, I'm
just really concerned about him being able to survive a
game and then going to the next We're gonna have
to play another one.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Actually, Like like DJ said, it's not just this game
is the recovery for the next one, the next next,
oneter that, It's just it's gonna be tired, But I
can't wait to watch it.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I really can't.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, I was joking with somebody this morning that, you know,
back in the day, we used to have you know,
you have your practice, your two hour practice, and we
had a ten minute screen period. I said, this is
going to be a ten two hour screen period with
ten minutes of other football sprinkled in there.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Everything. You hit that ball out quick.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I mean their offensive line is very good. They
have Jonathan Taylor is going to get a ton of work,
which is a good thing. They've got Josh Downs, they
they can run some screens with Michael Pittman's there, and
they've got Tyler Warren. I mean, he has all the
pieces around him. If this is gonna work, that that
that can help them. So yeah, I can't wait to
watch this against Seattle.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Oh man, this buck. We haven't seen anything like this man.
And by the way, that the Tom Brady thing that
Island Phillip's not a big I don't think he's a
big avocado toast. I don't think he's you know, doing
all that stuff. I don't think he's sleeping in a
hyperbaric chamber. Doesn't really sound like that's a River's style.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I do have a question Tom, like with an older player,
because one thing that Philip has, he has experience and
expertise because he's seen everything that they could throw their way.
Is it possible that the one advantage that he gives
the Colts is their ability to improve their running game
because he can check in and out things that Riley
Leonard hasn't seen. Philip being able to dominate the line
of scrimmage in terms of getting them in the.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Right call could be a yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Just getting in you know, second and twelve is not good,
Second and six is good, you know, So it's just
getting it, you know, like you said, out of a
bad play he gets, he gets the wrong look, makes
a change, you know, picks up four or five yards
on first down.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, there's no doubt.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I mean, there's no more coach on the field than
what Philip is going to be literally and figurative is
a coach.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yes, what I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And with him and Shane, I mean they're running North
Turner's offense and basically they could finish each other's sentence
as it becomes x's and nose, so it you know,
would be really fun to be on the headsets to
listen to Shane. You know, now, now Philip can't talk back,
and the headset you can only hear, I mean, you can.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Mike him up. He's got to be miked up for this.
That would be a.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Tremendous viewing just to listen to that throughout the game
of those two kind of going through the game plan,
you know, in real time.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, I would imagine with the you know, all these
teams having their own media company basically in house, that
they hopefully document this thing all the way.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Hopefully, but no matter way he goes, I can tell
you from experience, he doesn't like being miked up in
most quarterbacks. Most quarterbacks don't to do it, don't like it.
They all have to do it once a year. So
maybe you know, he's got four games left, he can
have to do it for one of these four, the
first one.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Oh gosh, I hope they do it, man, I want to.
I want to hear it so bad.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
By the way, I got asked to play in a
high school baseball alumni game.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think it was maybe end of December, first of January.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I mean, and I'm four, I just turned forty eight,
there was not even a one percent interest in ever.
And this is baseball, this is where you can just
kind of jog around the bases or what have you.
I'm like, there is no chance. That sounds so unappealing
and I would really hurt myself. I cannot going to
play the NFL game at this point, Diamonds Nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Philip does have a field behind his south a Field,
turf field, so between that and the high school practice field, like,
like you said, like he's been actively involved in football,
just you know, not at the end, I felt, you know,
grind level, but he's been actively involved, you know, since
the day he walked off from the Colts last time.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah again, I mentioned this the other day.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
My favorite story, and it's a rumor at this point,
I don't know if it's actually true, is that he
had to get his cleats out of his trophy case
before he went to.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Because he wears those special he wears.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Those special shoes were like rebox or whatever, those like
old school shoes that he wore. So, man, it's gonna
be fun. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
back with some more with Tom Telesco. All right, Tom,
let's get into some of these other teams here and
uh and where we are heading into the playoffs. You
mentioned Drake may and and Bo Nicks a minute ago. Man,
(12:39):
we've got some second year quarterbacks Caleb Williams in that
mix as well. We've got, you know, some of the
better teams around him this year. I know there was
that you know, is that Russell Wilson period where Seattle
was making that run and it was the common analysis was, Man,
when you're not paying your quarterback, it's amazing the roster
you can build up around him.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And I don't I don't see how this is any different.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I look what New England did and free agency and
how aggressive and how bold they were. Look those other
teams and I mean, look at Chicago rebuilt their offensive
line in one off season. Denver's just continued to add
more pieces on both sides of the ball. And people can,
you know, look at other other reasons of why this
is working. But man, it turns out, when you get
to pay your quarterback, you know a few percentage of
(13:20):
what you're going to have to pay once that second
contract comes, you can build a heck of a roster.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You know what was cool with New England was you know,
they spent a lot of money. They spent a lot
of money in defense, essentially bought a new defense, but
they spent on the right players.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I mean, it's just like college with nil money.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You can have all the money in the world, but
if you spend on the wrong players, it doesn't you know,
it's not going to work. So watching what New England
did on defense, I thought on offense, I didn't think
they were going to have enough around Drake May yet.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But they've done tremendous. You know, they've got two rookie
offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You know, they say, have Stefan Diggs there, Hunter Henry's
having a great year. You know, we've drafted Hunter when
we were in San Diego of all places, that's how
long he's been around.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
He's but he's just the perfect type.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Style of player for for Drake May because he always
knows he's going to be exactly where he has to
be all the time, and he's reliable and he's gonna
catch the football.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So but yeah, they've done a tremendous job.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And then watching Caleb Williams, what I like about his
situation is he's not being asked to carry the whole offense.
I mean their identity is a running football team running
for almost one hundred and fifty yards a game, uh
DeAndre Swift. And then and then the Rutgers back home
manage like those. That's a really two headed monster compliment.
(14:33):
And then you know when when Caleb has to pull
a rabbit out of a hat and run around and
make play with this big time athletic ability, he can
do it. Now he still has to keep coming along
in the pocket, you know, anticipation and accuracy, and it
has improved. What I like is that haven't taken away
his unstructured play, but it's it's a running offense. The
offensive line, like you said, is just has been rebuilt.
(14:57):
And you know, as a young player is not being
asked to carry the w offense. And you know, I
can't say enough about what Ben Johnson's done for the
whole team, but certainly on offense.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
There you know time I would ask you because in
talking about the second year quarterbacks, a guy who was
getting a lot of attention has been JJ McCarthy. He's
so polarizing because he was taken early, but he's only
played seven games. How long do you play this out,
like what's the magic number with starts before you can
make a decision to go forward with him or do
we need to go back and start looking at another
(15:26):
option at quarterback.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, you know it's been hard with them just you know,
just because well two reasons. One, in college he didn't
have the volume of passes those other guys had. It's
just the offense that he was in, so you know,
there was still a lot of development that had to
take place. But then the problem is he's been injured
a lot. You know, not only the ACL last year,
which is basically a red shirt ear, but it's not
(15:48):
a redsher ear where you can keep practicing. It's a
retro ear where you're just rehabbing the whole time. Then
he come into this year and you're essentially a rookie again.
But then he's had some other injuries that have slowed
him down. So he just doesn't have a big enough
body of work. Yet you've seen flashes of what he
can do. I mean, he's a really good athlete, he's
got some moxie to him, he's a leader, but he's
(16:09):
still has a lot of work to do. So certainly
you got you have all of this year, and I
guess we'll see how he finishes as you go to
next year, you do you bring in competition or not.
They know him better than we do. I still think
there's a lot of upside there. It's just that he's
just been behind so much with the injuries. And when
you're here, you can't practice. When you can't practice, you
(16:30):
can't get better. So but there's still enough there that
he saw on college. You see what with Minnesota, he's
got an outstanding head.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Coach to work with. Where that magic number is, I
don't have a good answer for that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I want to get to another another quarterback in that
group that I don't think has been talked about at all,
and partially because.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
He's hurt, and that's Penix. You know, Tom.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
When you're going through that draft process, it was a
big part of the discussion was the durability concerns. And
he's been hurt, you know, having be able to finish
all these years multiple you know, knees, and then unfortunately
here we are and it's it's kind of it's born
out here. He's he's got injury issues and and I
guess the question would be, if you think in your career.
Can you think of times where it's benefited you to
(17:15):
ignore some of the injury concerns and other times where
you can look at it and say, man, the signs
were right in front of us.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Why didn't we heed the warning signs? You can never
ignore it, you just can't.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's it's it's you know, when you're when you're selecting players,
trying to mitigate your risk on a lot of these
and some of the biggest risk is is players with
with either chronic injuries or or heavy durability issues. So
it's always talked about at every position. It can never
be ignored. It's it's it's probably the biggest part of
the draft process that nobody talks about and nobody sees
(17:46):
and they shouldn't. You know, you're talking about, you know,
medical files on players. It's a big part of it
when we're talking about selecting players. So with with with
Michael Pennix, there wasn't a lot of downside with his ability.
The only issue, like you said, with just the amount
of injuries. And you know, there's two ways to look
at it. You can say, well, look, yeah, he's had
a lot of injuries in college. But with the things
(18:07):
he has, they're all healed, they're not chronic. He'll be
fine once you get to college. Every once gets to
the pros like these aren't going to carry over. But
you know, when you have that many injuries, there's a
pattern to it. So because when he's healthy, he can play,
I mean, he can rip it, he's got good arm strength,
he's accurate, he can make quick decisions.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
He's athletic enough.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But if you're the Falcons, I mean next year, you know,
there's no guarantee he's ready for opening days. So you
know they're going to have to probably look at the
quarterback market more likely probably the draft. If you really
think about it, there's not going to be a lot
in free agency. If you look at who's available, there's
not a lot. So depending where Kirk Cousins is next year,
if he's still there, if he's going somewhere else, or
if he retires, they're going to have to have an
(18:50):
answer a quarterback, and you can't rely on Penis even
if he's ready to go opening day. You're going to
have to have somebody else behind him that can play,
not just like a young practice squad type backup, because
you just know guarantee is going to stay healthy.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
You know, time I'm marine, you had to help me
with a little homework that I'm doing because the one
thing that you will learn in the media business, people
love grades.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So I've been tasked with grading the rookie first rounders.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Now you and DJ know that every first rounder is
there's different levels top ten versus the middle, twelve versus
the last part. We have different expectations for those guys.
As a general manager, how do you evaluate a rookie
at the end of that first year? Is it due
to expectation? What are the things that you're looking for
(19:34):
to see from a rookie over the course of his
first year.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
You know, I don't get hung up on where the
player is picked, and that's the sliding grading scale.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I don't get hung up on that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
But with all your rookies, first of all, you're looking
for just are they going to contribute on your roster
in your one You know, that's the biggest thing. Can
that find a role? Obviously with the quarterbacks is different.
They're probably going to be a starter, but was there
development during the year. It's very subjective. It'd be hard
to put a grade on that because like I said,
just well, all evaluations are really subjective. You can always
(20:10):
blend in the data behind it, but a lot of
the subjective. You want to blend the two together. But
if you're looking at your rookie class, like I just
want to see guys that that earned roles, contributed and
that got better through the course of the year. And
the hard thing with rookies, and we're going to see
it right now once get to December. First, it is
such a long season. It's a grueling year. Every week
(20:31):
is a tough week. Every opponent they play is a
top level player. I mean you talk about say a
college offensive tackle. It doesn't even even in the SEC.
He's not going against NFL rushers every week. He's going
against some, but not every week. In this league, there's
big time rushers on both sides every single week. So
trying to get used to that pattern for the young
(20:52):
guys and then you move into December. But you just
want to see objective improvement, I guess as.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Much as you can.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Is there a position where you thought more patients was
required than others where it's just the learning curve there
is so great.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is there one that stands out to you well, certainly quarterback.
I used to think it was receiver, but there's been
more receivers that have come in early and contributed early.
It used to be as a receiver you come in
there's just a big adjustment period. There's so many things
going on pre snap that they have to know and
then post snap as far adjusting routes. But I think, honestly,
(21:31):
I think with the advent of so much seven at
seven in high school in the summertime, and collegers throw
the ball so much more than they used to a
long time ago, that that transition is a little easier now.
But certainly quarterback and then to me, the second would
be offensive line. There's just so many techniques and tools
of the trade that you learn that just takes time
and takes development over a number of years. So those
(21:52):
are probably the two positions. Defense a little bit easier
to probably transition. You know, you can always fall back
to seatball, getball, but I say, off, it's a blind
and quarterback.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Man that is That was always my thing. DJ, What
was your what was your challenging position as an even
mean it was oh, in terms.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Of challenging position for me, it was always safety. Okay, Yeah,
it was always hard, just because like old one was
always hard for me.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, it's safety's gotten. I'll tell you what the batting
average on safety don't know or you how? This would
be a good question for Tom of how you how
you watch it because it used to be when we're
all growing up, we were all taught, Hey, four games.
You need four games and make an evaluation on a guy.
You got to watch four games, and I can watch
four games. You can watch four different games. We have
totally wildly different opinions, but with the ability to cut
(22:35):
up the tape now as efficiently as we can, like
safeties for me personally, like I've seen what was what
I had had a lower batting average previously since I've
been able to watch all the cutups, so to see
an entire season of key plays all the way through.
I don't do that for any positions, but the safety
position I do, and I found out I'd rather watch
an entire season of key plays, you know, basically a
(22:58):
hit tape versus you know, randomly selecting four games for
a safety where he might be in the parking lot,
you know, not seeing it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That's the entire that's the thing as safety is is, Yeah,
there's a lot of snaps where they're just not involved.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So I agree with you, like you need a lot
of games for a safety.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
They really feel good about your evaluation, probably more so
than any other position.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But the fun thing with safeties is and plus, the
safety position has really evolved in the NFL right now.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I mean you have to be able to tackle and
play the run game almost like a linebacker, but then
you have to be able to cover like a corner.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So there are obviously the good ones. They're very hard
to find.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Is it takes a really wide skill set, but it
does take a lot of games at that position, just because, yeah,
there's a lot of times it's a two deep safety
he's just backpedal and nothing's going on in front of him.
You may not have a run support responsibility. So as
far as a moni game tape, it takes a lot.
And then with the offensive line, I was the same
When I first started scouting, the offensive line to me
was a bit foreign. And when I was with the Colts,
(23:56):
I sat down with Howard Mudd, who's one of the
best that they've done it as far as all offensive
line coaches, and I learned so much from him, not
just sitting down with them, but just spending time with
him over the years when I was on pro scouting
at that point, and just learning all the things that
he would look for in that position. And now I
feel like I love doing offensive lineman. I love doing centers.
(24:16):
Centers to me, I really, I mean sounds kind of
kind of nerdish for football wise. I love watching centers
play the levers, the quickness, the pulling, the movement. So
most of the stuff I learned on offensive line play
came from Howard.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
I think what's interesting about offensive line more than any
other position, what actually plays and sticks in the league
is so different. When you're a college scout and you're
on the road, you have this ideal of what plays
on Sunday, and two you're in the league.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
For a while and you're like, this guy's this guy's
an eight year player.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
There's just so many different things that can enable an
offensive lineman to have success because some of it is
the cohesion with their buddies and how they utilize their
neighbors on the inside, and your intelligence and all that
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, the key to me as always, especially with offensive linemen,
because there's no perfect lineman, like they all have a
little weakness somewhere and try and decide already has a flaw.
Is it a fatal flaw that is probably going to
really limit his ability to play in the league, or
is it a flaw that we can kind of get over.
And those are some things when you're watching, say a
really athletic tackle who has some problems anchoring with his
(25:21):
lower body strength.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Well, okay, we have to decide is this a flaw that.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
He can get over with a little bit of technique
in teaching, or is this is a fatal flaw where
he just is not going to be able to anchor
in the NFL. And that's what scouts get paid for,
that's what we all get paid for to try and
to figure that out, because I guess there's no perfect prospects.
They all have their flaws somewhere. You have to decide
which are fatal on which are livable.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
No doubt, I want to change gears here.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
As we're getting ready to wrap up, Tom was having
this conversation earlier today about these four defenses Houston, Denver,
Seattle and the Rams for elite.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Elite defense is the way they're playing right now.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I want to ask you to rank them, but I'm
just curious, is there any through line in there when
you look at the way Houston plays defense, the Broncos, Seattle,
and the Rams, whatever, what is it those guys maybe
share as for the.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Pre eminent defenses in the league right now. Talent a
little bit of that, yeah, I mean, I mean really
all four of those keep its simple.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
They play fast and physical, and they get people around
the ball and they rush the passer. And then in
the passing game when balls are completed, there's not a
whole lot of run after catch. I mean you've got
multiple people with the right leverage really limiting that. And
you know, just watching the Texans the other day, I mean,
their secondary is outstanding. I love Jalen Petrie. He's one
(26:45):
of those players, like he's outstanding in the run game.
You know, his speed for the position and coverage is
probably an average where he's got such great instincts that
he can kind of overcome that. And then Kaylen Bullock
can just cover so much ground. You know, in centerfield
they have two great corners. So but yeah, those teams
are really loaded talent wise, But I think it's the
(27:07):
speed of what they play and the physicalness and aggressiveness,
but not making mistakes with it. Like a lot of
times we play play overly aggressive, you overrun a play
or you know, something like that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
But it doesn't seem to happen with them very often.
They're in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And as we get into the playoffs, you got to
have defense, especially when the elements start, you know, creeping in.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So you know, but those those four are you know,
by far tops in the league.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I want to want to tag that real quick because
it's going through And we were talking about this buck
on a previous episode. We were talking about with Houston
investing in their front to be able to win with four,
but then but then pairing that up with a bunch
of guys with ball skills. Both those safeties coming out
of college had a ton of production and ball skills
and awareness. Look at the corners that they had with
(27:52):
Lasseter and obviously with Stingley, guys who could really really
play the football. They've married that up well. And we
kind of go through the rest of these teams. They're
in the exact same boat. They all have ways where
you know, Denver will send extra rushers, but they can
win with their front and everybody in the back end
can find and play the ball. And Seattle you saw
with Riek Wall in his first year and he hasn't
approximately that same production. But Witherspoon can really really play
(28:14):
the ball. We're seeing it with Emon Warri kind of
getting his hands on balls as well now. But to me,
it's interesting Tom how they've married those two things up
really really well.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, not only that, but having more than just perimeter rush,
they have an inside rush. Zach Allen is outstanding.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Seattle has a ton of inside rushers, so getting that
inside whether it's push or winning a gap, so when
the edge rushers come up the field, the quarterback can't
step up. He's got nowhere to go. But yeah, I
mean they're really well constructed all for of those teams,
and then obviously well coached.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think the thing DJ has talked about it a
lot is the thing that kind of change over the
course of our time and scouts dbs that can legitimately tackle.
Tackling is now evaluated at a premium where before guys
will be like, oh, he's a cover corner. Not play
with a guy that does not have tackling skills in
this league. All those teams that you talk about great
(29:06):
tackling teams, is rare that those guys miss one on
one tackles in space.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, because if you're a corner who can't tackle, now,
offenses they're smart, they're going to target you. We're gonna
run at the perimeter. We're going to force you to tackle.
So that's why it is hard nowadays if you're a
pure cover corner. But if you're you know, five nine,
five ten, one hundred and eighty pounds but run four
to three, but you have a hard time in the
run game, then you'd become a target.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
For the offense.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So those days of having those those uh, those nickel
corners that are cover only that hey, don't worry about
the run game. Well, look you're playing nickel most of
the game. Anyways, that nickel has to be able to tackle,
has to.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, they'll bring them in, they're gonna put they're gonna
bunch it up, and they're going to leave you unblocked
and block everybody else and say, okay, it's all you.
You want to do this, You want to you really
want to see this two hundred and twenty pounds back
and see what you're all about here, you know, And that's.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Been the advent of so many teams, you know, so
many teams playing cover four and two shell, you know,
try and take away the explosive throws. So offenses are smart, like, look,
if you're gonna play two shell, then we're gonna start
running more power. We're gonna come at you in the
run game. That's I think that's why we're seeing the
you know, more running plays now than ever. It's a
cat and mouse game the whole way between offensive defense.
(30:18):
But hey, look we're gonna run more power, We're gonna
come out here. We're gonna make you tackle from me inside.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah, and I think DJ what's happening is because of that,
we're running the little guys off the field. It's hard
over the course of the season to have a five
to nine hundred and seventy five nickel make tackle af
to tackle over seventeen games. It's just hard to physically
hold up if you have to be incorporated or implemented
into the ground game.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Unless you're a Rondez Barber. Yeah, exactly, that's all dam Yeah,
there's a there's a couple of those Winfield. Oh yeah,
it was one of those. Well he was not he
was not scared of that. Fel far between. They're hard
to find, made no doubt. Hey Tom, this has been
fun man. It's it's always great to catch up with you.
As we kind of get towards the spring, will hit
you up because we want to talk about some of
(31:02):
these draft prospects. I know, you get a chance to
dig in on that from a thirty thousand foot in
view as you go out the door, though, is there
any initial takeaway you have from what we're getting ready
to see in this upcoming draft class?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
You know, the it's always I mean, first of all,
it's always quarterbacks right now, Like at least high it's
a lot of defensive players. That's That's what I've kind
of noticed, number one quarterbacks wise. I was just looking
at the teams that are going to need quarterbacks, and
the amount of quarterbacks are available, either through freegency or
the draft, it's not going to line up with supplying demand.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So that's gonna be really interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I think there's gonna be a ton of activity in
the top of the draft because you know, well, and
we'll see who comes out and who doesn't. You know
now with nil the way it is, you know, quarterback
and stay in school, get more development and get paid
and maybe you know, get ready for the NFL for
another year. So we'll see who declares first. But just
off the cuff, looks like a really strong defensive draft
number one. Yeah, that's where I am in the process
(32:01):
to lots of defensive linemen. So it's going to be
fun to get into those names with you as we
get a little bit closer to the spring.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
This has been a fun one. I hope you guys
have enjoyed it. Tom, you're the best buddy, and we'll
get you back out here as often as we can.
Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
There we go.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That's it. We'll see you next time right here on
moving sticks.
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
What's up everybody?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Welcome to Move the Sticks, DJ, Bucky joined by our
good friend Tom to LESCo. Tom, we appreciate you jumping
on with us again here man.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
What you've been up to? Yeah, no, thanks for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Just trying to stay active and busy, trying, you know,
watch some college guys and watching the NFL and just
trying to stay engaged as much as I can.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
What do you go back through your your years as
general manager, Tom, when you're in this time, this time
of the season, we're coming down the home stretch. Take
us a little bit of a behind the curtain here
as you're trying to monitor where your team is and
you can sniff the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You're not there yet, but you can sniff it. Well.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You have to prepare like you're going to be in
the playoffs because you've got a pro scouting staff that
has to have the advanced scouting of the teams.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You could be playing in the playoffs.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So December scouting from the pro side was always really
fun because you send your guys on the road for
potential maybe a team you haven't seen yet this year
to kind of get ready for that or team maybe
you saw early.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
In the year, because that has to be done.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
If you're in the wildcard team, that stuff has to
be done right after the last game of the year.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So you've got that going on.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You're still trying to solidify your roster just as strong
as you can make it from the practice squad all
the way up to make sure if there's an injury that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Happens, you can at least backfill it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So you're always working on that and then you know,
you know it's still important, but it's not a little
bit of a back burner. Is December is a big
month for the college scouts as far as some early
meetings on some players kind of get the draft board.
Kind of the draft board kind of starts to set
itself in the fall, but in December you can kind
of get it moved around a little bit, do a
lot of character work backgroun on players. So there's college
(01:43):
scouting meetings that are going on concurrently with the season,
and as a GM you kind of have to have
your hand in a little bit of everything. But certainly
the team on the field is the most important part
of this year and just making sure you're ready for
the playoffs, both roster wise and just intelligence wise.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
You know, Tim, I want to go to the college
side because DJNI are so familiar with that part of it.
So now in the new landscape, before we used to
really treat conference championship games, bowl games were like that
last Look, how do you treat that now? When your
scouts are talking about conference games guys not playing in
bowl games?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Like, does it matter at all? Do you care? What's
your state on that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I mean as far as not playing the games, that
doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
But you're right.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I mean a while ago, like the bowl games were
great evaluation tools for players because they usually have a
time off in between their last regular season game and
the bowl game, so they're fresh, they're ready to go,
and it's usually a good opponent.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So it was a great evaluation of the players.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
But nowadays so few NFL prospects playing the bowl games,
you kind of throw it out.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I mean, every now and.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Then you get lucky that, you know, you go to
a bowl game and you're seeing players maybe for two
years down the road. I was at the Holiday Bowl
a couple of years ago when bow Nicks played against
Drake May. Okay, neither we're going to be in that
draft that just happened to be there to look at
other players, but mostly prospects that were eligible didn't play
in that game. Conference championship game is still great, you know,
because you're playing good versus good usually, So those are
(03:07):
those are good evaluation tools. And then you know, for
most of the college guys, the reports usually do and
you know about mid December, right about now, where you
have everything basically done conference shipship games. Now we'll extend
it for these playoff games because again it's good on good.
These are great evaluation views for players and start to
(03:30):
put the whole thing together and put a bow on it.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Later on, where'd you stand on the you know, whether
this is just one another data point or was there
more importance placed on what you saw, especially now that
we have a playoff Let's just focus on that. How
these guys perform in this setting.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, you don't want to have too much recency bias,
but it's you know, obviously a little easier last thing
you see sometimes you remember the most. But I think
it's important. I mean, these are big, pressurized games. I
was talking with somebody that the other day about about
Riley Lennard. You know, probably a Leonard went through the
playoffs last year. One playoff games, you know, you know, big, big,
big leverage games. So that was a great experience for
(04:07):
him as a quarterback. So yeah, I mean they're important,
very important because you know that the pressure is there.
This isn't you know, you're you're not you're not playing
at enough CS school. So certainly a big part of
it is just but you do try and balance the
whole thing. It take their whole career, the whole body
of work, and and and go from there.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I'm glad you brought up Ridley Leonard because it's interesting
to watch him in the playoffs and then last week
I was on the field, but he got a chance
to start being Annapolis so and thinking back to his
playoff run and how he played Mendoza, Fernando Mendoz Is
don't have a chance to Simpsons, don't have a chance.
Some of these other quarterbacks don't have the chance to
make a last long push. Naymore like how do you
balance You talk about their recency balance, the recency bias,
(04:47):
but how do you balance these big games because they
are as close to an NFL game as.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
You can get. Yeah, that's fucky that.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's the great point is these games are like NFL
games because of the pressure around them, the amount of
eyes on them.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So yeah, they're big and and it's there.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It's you try and take the body of work, obviously,
but these playoff games are as much like an NFL
Every NFL game is a huge game. So these playoff games,
the caliber of the teams you're playing for those quarterbacks,
the caliber of the defenses they're going to play, the
amount of time those teams have to have time to
get ready, you know, to play, you know, to play
Indiana's offense, so he may see some things that he
(05:27):
didn't see during the regular season, which is like, which
is the way the NFL is every week. So yeah,
these are great tools. Thank god some of these quarterbacks
are playing in the playoffs. It just gives you more information.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, absolutely, it's going to be fun to fun evaluation
opportunity for those guys. I want to take the bridge
from Riley Leonard to the guy who's going to be
replacing Riley len I shouldn't say guy said it's a
grandfather that's going to be replacing a Riley Leonard Philip Rivers.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Nobody knows him as well.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
As you do, Tom, all the years you spent together
with the Chargers watching him play. I've tried to caution
people that have just laughed this whole thing off, versus saying, hey,
I know. I think it was like they're two touchdown
underdogs at Seattle. I know Seattle's defense and whether or not.
I'm like, look, the second week is another thing, and
see how his body can recover.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
But maybe I'm in the minority.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I'm like, for one week, I think Philip Rivers might
be able to screen his.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Way to a close game up there in Seattle.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Tell you what, I was with Philip for seven years,
Shane Stiken for eight I should have known better this's
gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
I mean I was.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I was doing a live radio interview Monday morning before
any of this broke. I was on with Doug Gottlieb
and Fox Sports Radio and we're talking about Daniel Jones's
injury and he asked me, He's like, hey, do you
think the Colts would reach out to Philip Rivers? And
I gave him one of these I'm like, he's been
out a football for five years.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
That's not gonna have. So that I talked about Riley
Leonard for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I thought, Rolly Leonard played played really well last week,
So talk about Riley Leonard. And then I think a
couple hours later, it kind of comes out that Philip
was gonna work out for the Colts, and I'm like, oh,
I'm supposed to be the expert analyst.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But I'll tell you what, from a fan standpoint, is fascinating.
When I put my GM hat on, I'm like, you know,
it's not just he's playing at forty four, it is
that he hasn't played in five years. So to me,
like the Time Brady comparison is not a comparison because
Time Brady was active the whole time. So, you know,
I was just concerned about, you know, the movement skill.
It's concerned about you know, reaction times. If you're off
(07:26):
just a millisecond. In the NFL, it's a big difference.
Concerned about soft tissue injury or worse. But then I
watched the press conference yesterday that Philip did and had
me convinced.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I'm like, let's hell, why not.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And that's the way Philip is like, I'm watching that
and I'm thinking all the reasons why you maybe you
shouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And then I'm like, he's got me, like, yeah, let's go.
Let's see. That's how he plays, That's how he plays.
Don't worry about the results. Just go off there and
let it rip. Buck. That's this guy that must see TV.
I can't wait watch I cannot wait to watch it either.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Man, I'm so I'm so skeered for him, just in
terms of like everybody who's ever played anything always believed
they still got a little left, and I'm just worried.
Five years away from the game Philip talked about, I'm
not at my playing weight, I'm about twenty miles. I
just I'm just fearful of him having to move around
and something bad happened. Even though I love the Maxie,
(08:19):
I love his gun slinging ways all of that, I'm
just really concerned about him being able to survive a
game and then going to the next We're gonna have
to play another one.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Actually, Like like DJ said, it's not just this game
is the recovery for the next one, the next next,
oneter that, It's just it's gonna be tired, But I
can't wait to watch it.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I really can't.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, I was joking with somebody this morning that, you know,
back in the day, we used to have you know,
you have your practice, your two hour practice, and we
had a ten minute screen period. I said, this is
going to be a ten two hour screen period with
ten minutes of other football sprinkled in there.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Everything. You hit that ball out quick.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I mean their offensive line is very good. They
have Jonathan Taylor is going to get a ton of work,
which is a good thing. They've got Josh Downs, they
they can run some screens with Michael Pittman's there, and
they've got Tyler Warren. I mean, he has all the
pieces around him. If this is gonna work, that that
that can help them. So yeah, I can't wait to
watch this against Seattle.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Oh man, this buck. We haven't seen anything like this man.
And by the way, that the Tom Brady thing that
Island Phillip's not a big I don't think he's a
big avocado toast. I don't think he's you know, doing
all that stuff. I don't think he's sleeping in a
hyperbaric chamber. Doesn't really sound like that's a River's style.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I do have a question Tom, like with an older player,
because one thing that Philip has, he has experience and
expertise because he's seen everything that they could throw their way.
Is it possible that the one advantage that he gives
the Colts is their ability to improve their running game
because he can check in and out things that Riley
Leonard hasn't seen. Philip being able to dominate the line
of scrimmage in terms of getting them in the.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Right call could be a yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Just getting in you know, second and twelve is not good,
Second and six is good, you know, So it's just
getting it, you know, like you said, out of a
bad play he gets, he gets the wrong look, makes
a change, you know, picks up four or five yards
on first down.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, there's no doubt.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I mean, there's no more coach on the field than
what Philip is going to be literally and figurative is
a coach.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yes, what I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And with him and Shane, I mean they're running North
Turner's offense and basically they could finish each other's sentence
as it becomes x's and nose, so it you know,
would be really fun to be on the headsets to
listen to Shane. You know, now, now Philip can't talk back,
and the headset you can only hear, I mean, you can.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Mike him up. He's got to be miked up for this.
That would be a.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Tremendous viewing just to listen to that throughout the game
of those two kind of going through the game plan,
you know, in real time.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, I would imagine with the you know, all these
teams having their own media company basically in house, that
they hopefully document this thing all the way.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Hopefully, but no matter way he goes, I can tell
you from experience, he doesn't like being miked up in
most quarterbacks. Most quarterbacks don't to do it, don't like it.
They all have to do it once a year. So
maybe you know, he's got four games left, he can
have to do it for one of these four, the
first one.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Oh gosh, I hope they do it, man, I want to.
I want to hear it so bad.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
By the way, I got asked to play in a
high school baseball alumni game.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think it was maybe end of December, first of January.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I mean, and I'm four, I just turned forty eight,
there was not even a one percent interest in ever.
And this is baseball, this is where you can just
kind of jog around the bases or what have you.
I'm like, there is no chance. That sounds so unappealing
and I would really hurt myself. I cannot going to
play the NFL game at this point, Diamonds Nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Philip does have a field behind his south a Field,
turf field, so between that and the high school practice field, like,
like you said, like he's been actively involved in football,
just you know, not at the end, I felt, you know,
grind level, but he's been actively involved, you know, since
the day he walked off from the Colts last time.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah again, I mentioned this the other day.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
My favorite story, and it's a rumor at this point,
I don't know if it's actually true, is that he
had to get his cleats out of his trophy case
before he went to.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Because he wears those special he wears.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Those special shoes were like rebox or whatever, those like
old school shoes that he wore. So, man, it's gonna
be fun. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
back with some more with Tom Telesco. All right, Tom,
let's get into some of these other teams here and
uh and where we are heading into the playoffs. You
mentioned Drake may and and Bo Nicks a minute ago. Man,
(12:39):
we've got some second year quarterbacks Caleb Williams in that
mix as well. We've got, you know, some of the
better teams around him this year. I know there was
that you know, is that Russell Wilson period where Seattle
was making that run and it was the common analysis was, Man,
when you're not paying your quarterback, it's amazing the roster
you can build up around him.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And I don't I don't see how this is any different.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I look what New England did and free agency and
how aggressive and how bold they were. Look those other
teams and I mean, look at Chicago rebuilt their offensive
line in one off season. Denver's just continued to add
more pieces on both sides of the ball. And people can,
you know, look at other other reasons of why this
is working. But man, it turns out, when you get
to pay your quarterback, you know a few percentage of
(13:20):
what you're going to have to pay once that second
contract comes, you can build a heck of a roster.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You know what was cool with New England was you know,
they spent a lot of money. They spent a lot
of money in defense, essentially bought a new defense, but
they spent on the right players.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I mean, it's just like college with nil money.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You can have all the money in the world, but
if you spend on the wrong players, it doesn't you know,
it's not going to work. So watching what New England
did on defense, I thought on offense, I didn't think
they were going to have enough around Drake May yet.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But they've done tremendous. You know, they've got two rookie
offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You know, they say, have Stefan Diggs there, Hunter Henry's
having a great year. You know, we've drafted Hunter when
we were in San Diego of all places, that's how
long he's been around.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
He's but he's just the perfect type.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Style of player for for Drake May because he always
knows he's going to be exactly where he has to
be all the time, and he's reliable and he's gonna
catch the football.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So but yeah, they've done a tremendous job.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And then watching Caleb Williams, what I like about his
situation is he's not being asked to carry the whole offense.
I mean their identity is a running football team running
for almost one hundred and fifty yards a game, uh
DeAndre Swift. And then and then the Rutgers back home
manage like those. That's a really two headed monster compliment.
(14:33):
And then you know when when Caleb has to pull
a rabbit out of a hat and run around and
make play with this big time athletic ability, he can
do it. Now he still has to keep coming along
in the pocket, you know, anticipation and accuracy, and it
has improved. What I like is that haven't taken away
his unstructured play, but it's it's a running offense. The
offensive line, like you said, is just has been rebuilt.
(14:57):
And you know, as a young player is not being
asked to carry the w offense. And you know, I
can't say enough about what Ben Johnson's done for the
whole team, but certainly on offense.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
There you know time I would ask you because in
talking about the second year quarterbacks, a guy who was
getting a lot of attention has been JJ McCarthy. He's
so polarizing because he was taken early, but he's only
played seven games. How long do you play this out,
like what's the magic number with starts before you can
make a decision to go forward with him or do
we need to go back and start looking at another
(15:26):
option at quarterback.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, you know it's been hard with them just you know,
just because well two reasons. One, in college he didn't
have the volume of passes those other guys had. It's
just the offense that he was in, so you know,
there was still a lot of development that had to
take place. But then the problem is he's been injured
a lot. You know, not only the ACL last year,
which is basically a red shirt ear, but it's not
(15:48):
a redsher ear where you can keep practicing. It's a
retro ear where you're just rehabbing the whole time. Then
he come into this year and you're essentially a rookie again.
But then he's had some other injuries that have slowed
him down. So he just doesn't have a big enough
body of work. Yet you've seen flashes of what he
can do. I mean, he's a really good athlete, he's
got some moxie to him, he's a leader, but he's
(16:09):
still has a lot of work to do. So certainly
you got you have all of this year, and I
guess we'll see how he finishes as you go to
next year, you do you bring in competition or not.
They know him better than we do. I still think
there's a lot of upside there. It's just that he's
just been behind so much with the injuries. And when
you're here, you can't practice. When you can't practice, you
(16:30):
can't get better. So but there's still enough there that
he saw on college. You see what with Minnesota, he's
got an outstanding head.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Coach to work with. Where that magic number is, I
don't have a good answer for that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I want to get to another another quarterback in that
group that I don't think has been talked about at all,
and partially because.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
He's hurt, and that's Penix. You know, Tom.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
When you're going through that draft process, it was a
big part of the discussion was the durability concerns. And
he's been hurt, you know, having be able to finish
all these years multiple you know, knees, and then unfortunately
here we are and it's it's kind of it's born
out here. He's he's got injury issues and and I
guess the question would be, if you think in your career.
Can you think of times where it's benefited you to
(17:15):
ignore some of the injury concerns and other times where
you can look at it and say, man, the signs
were right in front of us.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Why didn't we heed the warning signs? You can never
ignore it, you just can't.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's it's it's you know, when you're when you're selecting players,
trying to mitigate your risk on a lot of these
and some of the biggest risk is is players with
with either chronic injuries or or heavy durability issues. So
it's always talked about at every position. It can never
be ignored. It's it's it's probably the biggest part of
the draft process that nobody talks about and nobody sees
(17:46):
and they shouldn't. You know, you're talking about, you know,
medical files on players. It's a big part of it
when we're talking about selecting players. So with with with
Michael Pennix, there wasn't a lot of downside with his ability.
The only issue, like you said, with just the amount
of injuries. And you know, there's two ways to look
at it. You can say, well, look, yeah, he's had
a lot of injuries in college. But with the things
(18:07):
he has, they're all healed, they're not chronic. He'll be
fine once you get to college. Every once gets to
the pros like these aren't going to carry over. But
you know, when you have that many injuries, there's a
pattern to it. So because when he's healthy, he can play,
I mean, he can rip it, he's got good arm strength,
he's accurate, he can make quick decisions.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
He's athletic enough.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But if you're the Falcons, I mean next year, you know,
there's no guarantee he's ready for opening days. So you
know they're going to have to probably look at the
quarterback market more likely probably the draft. If you really
think about it, there's not going to be a lot
in free agency. If you look at who's available, there's
not a lot. So depending where Kirk Cousins is next year,
if he's still there, if he's going somewhere else, or
if he retires, they're going to have to have an
(18:50):
answer a quarterback, and you can't rely on Penis even
if he's ready to go opening day. You're going to
have to have somebody else behind him that can play,
not just like a young practice squad type backup, because
you just know guarantee is going to stay healthy.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
You know, time I'm marine, you had to help me
with a little homework that I'm doing because the one
thing that you will learn in the media business, people
love grades.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So I've been tasked with grading the rookie first rounders.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Now you and DJ know that every first rounder is
there's different levels top ten versus the middle, twelve versus
the last part. We have different expectations for those guys.
As a general manager, how do you evaluate a rookie
at the end of that first year? Is it due
to expectation? What are the things that you're looking for
(19:34):
to see from a rookie over the course of his
first year.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
You know, I don't get hung up on where the
player is picked, and that's the sliding grading scale.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I don't get hung up on that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
But with all your rookies, first of all, you're looking
for just are they going to contribute on your roster
in your one You know, that's the biggest thing. Can
that find a role? Obviously with the quarterbacks is different.
They're probably going to be a starter, but was there
development during the year. It's very subjective. It'd be hard
to put a grade on that because like I said,
just well, all evaluations are really subjective. You can always
(20:10):
blend in the data behind it, but a lot of
the subjective. You want to blend the two together. But
if you're looking at your rookie class, like I just
want to see guys that that earned roles, contributed and
that got better through the course of the year. And
the hard thing with rookies, and we're going to see
it right now once get to December. First, it is
such a long season. It's a grueling year. Every week
(20:31):
is a tough week. Every opponent they play is a
top level player. I mean you talk about say a
college offensive tackle. It doesn't even even in the SEC.
He's not going against NFL rushers every week. He's going
against some, but not every week. In this league, there's
big time rushers on both sides every single week. So
trying to get used to that pattern for the young
(20:52):
guys and then you move into December. But you just
want to see objective improvement, I guess as.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Much as you can.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Is there a position where you thought more patients was
required than others where it's just the learning curve there
is so great.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is there one that stands out to you well, certainly quarterback.
I used to think it was receiver, but there's been
more receivers that have come in early and contributed early.
It used to be as a receiver you come in
there's just a big adjustment period. There's so many things
going on pre snap that they have to know and
then post snap as far adjusting routes. But I think, honestly,
(21:31):
I think with the advent of so much seven at
seven in high school in the summertime, and collegers throw
the ball so much more than they used to a
long time ago, that that transition is a little easier now.
But certainly quarterback and then to me, the second would
be offensive line. There's just so many techniques and tools
of the trade that you learn that just takes time
and takes development over a number of years. So those
(21:52):
are probably the two positions. Defense a little bit easier
to probably transition. You know, you can always fall back
to seatball, getball, but I say, off, it's a blind
and quarterback.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Man that is That was always my thing. DJ, What
was your what was your challenging position as an even
mean it was oh, in terms.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Of challenging position for me, it was always safety. Okay, Yeah,
it was always hard, just because like old one was
always hard for me.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, it's safety's gotten. I'll tell you what the batting
average on safety don't know or you how? This would
be a good question for Tom of how you how
you watch it because it used to be when we're
all growing up, we were all taught, Hey, four games.
You need four games and make an evaluation on a guy.
You got to watch four games, and I can watch
four games. You can watch four different games. We have
totally wildly different opinions, but with the ability to cut
(22:35):
up the tape now as efficiently as we can, like
safeties for me personally, like I've seen what was what
I had had a lower batting average previously since I've
been able to watch all the cutups, so to see
an entire season of key plays all the way through.
I don't do that for any positions, but the safety
position I do, and I found out I'd rather watch
an entire season of key plays, you know, basically a
(22:58):
hit tape versus you know, randomly selecting four games for
a safety where he might be in the parking lot,
you know, not seeing it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That's the entire that's the thing as safety is is, Yeah,
there's a lot of snaps where they're just not involved.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So I agree with you, like you need a lot
of games for a safety.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
They really feel good about your evaluation, probably more so
than any other position.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
But the fun thing with safeties is and plus, the
safety position has really evolved in the NFL right now.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I mean you have to be able to tackle and
play the run game almost like a linebacker, but then
you have to be able to cover like a corner.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So there are obviously the good ones. They're very hard
to find.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Is it takes a really wide skill set, but it
does take a lot of games at that position, just because, yeah,
there's a lot of times it's a two deep safety
he's just backpedal and nothing's going on in front of him.
You may not have a run support responsibility. So as
far as a moni game tape, it takes a lot.
And then with the offensive line, I was the same
When I first started scouting, the offensive line to me
was a bit foreign. And when I was with the Colts,
(23:56):
I sat down with Howard Mudd, who's one of the
best that they've done it as far as all offensive
line coaches, and I learned so much from him, not
just sitting down with them, but just spending time with
him over the years when I was on pro scouting
at that point, and just learning all the things that
he would look for in that position. And now I
feel like I love doing offensive lineman. I love doing centers.
(24:16):
Centers to me, I really, I mean sounds kind of
kind of nerdish for football wise. I love watching centers
play the levers, the quickness, the pulling, the movement. So
most of the stuff I learned on offensive line play
came from Howard.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
I think what's interesting about offensive line more than any
other position, what actually plays and sticks in the league
is so different. When you're a college scout and you're
on the road, you have this ideal of what plays
on Sunday, and two you're in the league.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
For a while and you're like, this guy's this guy's
an eight year player.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
There's just so many different things that can enable an
offensive lineman to have success because some of it is
the cohesion with their buddies and how they utilize their
neighbors on the inside, and your intelligence and all that
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, the key to me as always, especially with offensive linemen,
because there's no perfect lineman, like they all have a
little weakness somewhere and try and decide already has a flaw.
Is it a fatal flaw that is probably going to
really limit his ability to play in the league, or
is it a flaw that we can kind of get over.
And those are some things when you're watching, say a
really athletic tackle who has some problems anchoring with his
(25:21):
lower body strength.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Well, okay, we have to decide is this a flaw that.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
He can get over with a little bit of technique
in teaching, or is this is a fatal flaw where
he just is not going to be able to anchor
in the NFL. And that's what scouts get paid for,
that's what we all get paid for to try and
to figure that out, because I guess there's no perfect prospects.
They all have their flaws somewhere. You have to decide
which are fatal on which are livable.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
No doubt, I want to change gears here.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
As we're getting ready to wrap up, Tom was having
this conversation earlier today about these four defenses Houston, Denver,
Seattle and the Rams for elite.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Elite defense is the way they're playing right now.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I want to ask you to rank them, but I'm
just curious, is there any through line in there when
you look at the way Houston plays defense, the Broncos, Seattle,
and the Rams, whatever, what is it those guys maybe
share as for the.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Pre eminent defenses in the league right now. Talent a
little bit of that, yeah, I mean, I mean really
all four of those keep its simple.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
They play fast and physical, and they get people around
the ball and they rush the passer. And then in
the passing game when balls are completed, there's not a
whole lot of run after catch. I mean you've got
multiple people with the right leverage really limiting that. And
you know, just watching the Texans the other day, I mean,
their secondary is outstanding. I love Jalen Petrie. He's one
(26:45):
of those players, like he's outstanding in the run game.
You know, his speed for the position and coverage is
probably an average where he's got such great instincts that
he can kind of overcome that. And then Kaylen Bullock
can just cover so much ground. You know, in centerfield
they have two great corners. So but yeah, those teams
are really loaded talent wise, But I think it's the
(27:07):
speed of what they play and the physicalness and aggressiveness,
but not making mistakes with it. Like a lot of
times we play play overly aggressive, you overrun a play
or you know, something like that.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
But it doesn't seem to happen with them very often.
They're in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And as we get into the playoffs, you got to
have defense, especially when the elements start, you know, creeping in.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So you know, but those those four are you know,
by far tops in the league.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I want to want to tag that real quick because
it's going through And we were talking about this buck
on a previous episode. We were talking about with Houston
investing in their front to be able to win with four,
but then but then pairing that up with a bunch
of guys with ball skills. Both those safeties coming out
of college had a ton of production and ball skills
and awareness. Look at the corners that they had with
(27:52):
Lasseter and obviously with Stingley, guys who could really really
play the football. They've married that up well. And we
kind of go through the rest of these teams. They're
in the exact same boat. They all have ways where
you know, Denver will send extra rushers, but they can
win with their front and everybody in the back end
can find and play the ball. And Seattle you saw
with Riek Wall in his first year and he hasn't
approximately that same production. But Witherspoon can really really play
(28:14):
the ball. We're seeing it with Emon Warri kind of
getting his hands on balls as well now. But to me,
it's interesting Tom how they've married those two things up
really really well.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, not only that, but having more than just perimeter rush,
they have an inside rush. Zach Allen is outstanding.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Seattle has a ton of inside rushers, so getting that
inside whether it's push or winning a gap, so when
the edge rushers come up the field, the quarterback can't
step up. He's got nowhere to go. But yeah, I
mean they're really well constructed all for of those teams,
and then obviously well coached.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think the thing DJ has talked about it a
lot is the thing that kind of change over the
course of our time and scouts dbs that can legitimately tackle.
Tackling is now evaluated at a premium where before guys
will be like, oh, he's a cover corner. Not play
with a guy that does not have tackling skills in
this league. All those teams that you talk about great
(29:06):
tackling teams, is rare that those guys miss one on
one tackles in space.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, because if you're a corner who can't tackle, now,
offenses they're smart, they're going to target you. We're gonna
run at the perimeter. We're going to force you to tackle.
So that's why it is hard nowadays if you're a
pure cover corner. But if you're you know, five nine,
five ten, one hundred and eighty pounds but run four
to three, but you have a hard time in the
run game, then you'd become a target.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
For the offense.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So those days of having those those uh, those nickel
corners that are cover only that hey, don't worry about
the run game. Well, look you're playing nickel most of
the game. Anyways, that nickel has to be able to tackle,
has to.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, they'll bring them in, they're gonna put they're gonna
bunch it up, and they're going to leave you unblocked
and block everybody else and say, okay, it's all you.
You want to do this, You want to you really
want to see this two hundred and twenty pounds back
and see what you're all about here, you know, And that's.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Been the advent of so many teams, you know, so
many teams playing cover four and two shell, you know,
try and take away the explosive throws. So offenses are smart, like, look,
if you're gonna play two shell, then we're gonna start
running more power. We're gonna come at you in the
run game. That's I think that's why we're seeing the
you know, more running plays now than ever. It's a
cat and mouse game the whole way between offensive defense.
(30:18):
But hey, look we're gonna run more power, We're gonna
come out here. We're gonna make you tackle from me inside.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah, and I think DJ what's happening is because of that,
we're running the little guys off the field. It's hard
over the course of the season to have a five
to nine hundred and seventy five nickel make tackle af
to tackle over seventeen games. It's just hard to physically
hold up if you have to be incorporated or implemented
into the ground game.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Unless you're a Rondez Barber. Yeah, exactly, that's all dam Yeah,
there's a there's a couple of those Winfield. Oh yeah,
it was one of those. Well he was not he
was not scared of that. Fel far between. They're hard
to find, made no doubt. Hey Tom, this has been
fun man. It's it's always great to catch up with you.
As we kind of get towards the spring, will hit
you up because we want to talk about some of
(31:02):
these draft prospects. I know, you get a chance to
dig in on that from a thirty thousand foot in
view as you go out the door, though, is there
any initial takeaway you have from what we're getting ready
to see in this upcoming draft class?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
You know, the it's always I mean, first of all,
it's always quarterbacks right now, Like at least high it's
a lot of defensive players. That's That's what I've kind
of noticed, number one quarterbacks wise. I was just looking
at the teams that are going to need quarterbacks, and
the amount of quarterbacks are available, either through freegency or
the draft, it's not going to line up with supplying demand.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So that's gonna be really interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I think there's gonna be a ton of activity in
the top of the draft because you know, well, and
we'll see who comes out and who doesn't. You know
now with nil the way it is, you know, quarterback
and stay in school, get more development and get paid
and maybe you know, get ready for the NFL for
another year. So we'll see who declares first. But just
off the cuff, looks like a really strong defensive draft
number one. Yeah, that's where I am in the process
(32:01):
to lots of defensive linemen. So it's going to be
fun to get into those names with you as we
get a little bit closer to the spring.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
This has been a fun one. I hope you guys
have enjoyed it. Tom, you're the best buddy, and we'll
get you back out here as often as we can.
Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
There we go.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That's it. We'll see you next time right here on
moving sticks.
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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