What can Aaron Rodgers accomplish in his age 43 season? Does Deshaun Watson still have a competitive fire in him? Where is Shedeur Sanders in his development? These are the quarterback questions facing the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cleveland Browns -- two teams that Bucky Brooks and Lance Zierlein cover in the first half of this edition of Move the Sticks. Afterward, the MTS duo goes deep into tight end trends at the NFL level, highlighting teams that are going heavy in their personnel, including the Los Angeles Rams, Las Vegas Raiders, Buffalo Bills and Chicago Bears.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to move the six.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I m Bucky Brooks, and my guy on the other
side of the screen is LZ, the one and only
Lance Airline, and he is here to help me talking
about all the latest and greatest things that are popping
off in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
But first Lance, I gotta tell you, how's Agetown holding
it down?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Oh it's good. Just a lot of rain this week.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
We uh, we're just watching the h How far away
our Rockets are from being on the same level of
Oklahoma City and the Spurs anybody in the Western Conference? Now,
after watching Wimby, we already knew about oak City, But
after watching Wimby, you gotta say.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Man, our squad is a long way way, long wain way.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh look, man, I'm gonna say this and we'll end
up doing this on a later episode. I am fascinated
by the way both of those teams have been built,
and they weren't slow rebuilds. But looking at OKAC and
San Antonio, you can't tell me that those two teams
are not gonna take terms.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Dominating in the NBA for the next decade.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Like just the way that the Spurs are constructed with
Winby in the middle the young players that they've been
able to kind of finally get up and going, and okay,
see just nailing the draft and being a slow cooker process, like, hey,
we're gonna draft develop and when they pop, they pop,
and they're just gonna reign supreme over the NBA. And
I know you talk about the Rockets out here out West,
(01:23):
they talk about the Lakers. I just don't think they
have a chance messing over those teams. Messing over those
teams over the next decade.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
You can make whatever moves you want, and it's rele
relevant to the conversation we're having right now because I
think team building.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So I do a sports talk show.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
You do sports talk, so we follow all the sports, right,
but then we major in football conversation and I'm major.
I do a lot of pro football, but also draft,
and you do the same thing. I've always been fascinated
by team building. I'm kind of studied it on the
baseball side, on the basketball side, on the football side.
It's different different ways to achieve the team building goals,
(02:02):
but the way teams build is always fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And I wonder how many of our.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Viewer slash listeners would be surprised to know that a
lot of people in the NFL or in Major League
Baseball will travel to go speak with general managers and
other sports to try to get insights. I was in
Indianapolis in twenty eighteen and they had the general managers.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Real young guy.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I can't remember who the gym of the Phoenix hockey
team was. I don't really follow NHL, but I got
to sit in the meeting where he and his right
hand man were sitting in there talking to the Colts
front office about how they do things and how they
recognize certain traits.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And then the Colts.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Were asking questions about like Ballad would ask questions about,
you know, their combine and whether or not traits, how
much traits mattered to them. I know Chris Ballad has
studied under I know he's gone and spoken. He's good
friends with Jeff, but he's gone and visit with theo
Epstein before and in different gms. And that happens with basketball.
(03:08):
Dennis Lindsay, who's now with the I've known Dennis for years.
He's been with the Spurs, the Mavericks, and now he's
with the Pistons. He's gone cross Sport to go talk
because you can glean I think, ideas in the way
that other people look at team building.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know, I think is it's really interesting because I
do believe there's crossover. I've always been fascinated like this
time of year in the playoffs and looking at the
champions are the teams that make it to the finals
in any sport, whether it's basketball in the NBA, to
see a what did this team do to kind of
have this level of success, whether it's hockey. I remember
(03:44):
a few years ago when the Tampa Bay Lightning went
back to back. This is before the Florida Panthers became
the team, but looking at their culture and examining what
worked for them, Looking at the Cubs when Joe Madden
was with the Cubs and they finally won a.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
World Series, why was it able to pop for them?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
All team builders should be able to look to other
team builders for clues and for things that they can
glean that can help them within their respective sport. Part
of what we do is to always be learning to
have a growth mindset, and certainly that crosses sports and
whatever sport you're in, it crosses that you can find
success pattering your teams and your team building models after
(04:23):
other programs.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's always different ways.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
To to to succeed.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
A lot of different ways, and sometimes you need someone
outside of the box who has a different vision or
a different idea or a different concept for building. It's
just a fresh perspective. That's why you can find different
things in different sports.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
You may not, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
For me, I've always looked at cross sports, like in boxing.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I grew up a huge boxing.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Fan, and a lot of us did if we grew
up in the eighties and nineties, really the heyday, and
I used to look at and for me, watching guys
like Matt Mike the body snatcher, McCallum, you know, these
guys the bodies.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Launching, Julio Caesar Chavez.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
You know, like these are body punchers, and I like
in that to the running game in football, My dad
was no line coach, and we would talk about the
wearing down and the attrition in the fourth quarter the
same way body punching. And now it can be leg kicks,
and you know in combat sports and mixed martial arts,
how it has an impact in the championship rounds or
the championship quarter.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
The fourth quarter. You know, there's there's different there's different
things you can take from different sports and combine them.
Especially in the game of football.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I think, yeah, you absolutely can't combine them.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And you know, like we talked about crossover sports, one
of the things that's fascinating to me that's within our
own sports. So obviously I'll make this crossover. When I
was in Green Bay a lot of times, we spent
a lot of time looking at Vince Lombardi and success.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
All the pitchers are on the wall.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, the most fascinating story that we have in the
NFL this year is gonna be Aaron Rodgers reuniting with
Mike McCarthy and Pittsburgh. Aaron Rodgers recently signed that one year,
twenty two million dollar deal that can go up to
twenty five million and incentives, and he rejoins the coach
that really helped him get his career off the ground,
helped him kind of set the foundation for being a
(06:16):
multiple time MVP, and helped him win his only Super
Bowl as they did it knocking off the Pittsburgh still
his years ago. When you think about Aaron Rodgers rejoining
his old guy, Mike McCarthy, what's the first thing to
come to mind.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I mean, for me, it's friction because I know how
it ended so and I knew people who were in
new who were in Green Bay at the time, and
it wasn't it wasn't great at the end, but they
had a lot of success together and there was a
lot of good football. I just I thought that was
a curious pairing because I wondered how Aaron would be.
(06:51):
He's probably more sett in his ways than he's ever been.
We all get that way when you get older, and
I just thought that was for Aaron to come back
and play, I think it shows a willingness. I'd like
to hope it shows a willingness to kind of work
together and try to hit reset on that relationship. I mean,
Aaron's more limited now, He's not the same player he
once was physically. But I don't know what your answer
(07:13):
was to that question, Buck. For me, I just thought
of the way it ended personally.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, the way that ended was not great.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
But what I'm hopeful for if you're Pittsburgh still iss man,
you hope for that both of these guys have had
time away from each other to probably reflect and have
a greater appreciation for what they did for one another
and how they were able to elevate each other. What
I would say about Mike McCarthy having When I was
in Kansas City as a player, Mike McCarthy was a
quarterback coach. Mike McCarthy is uniquely qualified to coach Aaron Rodgers,
(07:43):
not because of their previous success, but Mike McCarthy coach
Joe Montana at the end of his career, and anyone
that understands how to deal with superstars, superstars who are
no longer what they once were, but in their mind
they still feel like they're the goat, they're the guy.
I think his experience with Joe Montana will help him
(08:04):
have the right balance of grace and grit to kind
of get whatever he can get out of Aaron Rodgers.
The grace and knowing, hey, man, you're not able to
do some of those things that you were able to
do before, where we used to run around and make
plays on second reaction things and throw it over the
top of the defense. The grit part is, hey, we're
gonna have to have some of these tough conversations. I've
(08:25):
given you a lot of freedom in the past where
you've gone away from the game plan and done and
done some things that look fit your skill set, but
maybe not everybody else.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
We don't have to have these tough conversations because I'm
gona need you to run the ball a little more.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You can be able to kind of wipe away some
of those things that you used to do with checks
and things at the line of scrimmer, so we can
stay true to the compliments that have to carry you
the supporting cast as opposed to you being everything. I
think that experience should help him in that. I would
expect to see Aaron Rodgers play fairly well for Mike McCarthy,
even though it's gonna look drastically different than it did
(08:59):
the first time.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I Yeah, the Aaron Rodgers that Mike McCarthy is going
to remember is not the same one now. There's just
certain throws that Aaron won't even really attempt anymore, not much.
And uh, you know, I wonder it's a tricky conversation
because there's two different there's Aaron Rodgers conversation now with
(09:20):
the Pittsburgh Steelers. I think it puts Pittsburgh in a
bind having an aging quarterback who is not going to
you know, there's only I think there's a ceiling on
how well Aaron can play this year.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
And then you look at the Steelers and.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I thought the draft was just okay. I look at
the growth like, I think they're going to be in
a state of flux next year once they have to
figure out quarterback, because I think they definitely have to
figure out quarterback. But then the other conversation is the
greatness of Aaron Rodgers as an all time player, the
greatest throw of the football that I've ever witnessed.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I've never never seen.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Anyone who had that ability, spatial awareness, release quickness, the
ability to throw on the move, to make clutch throws
like he's the greatest I've ever seen, armslot at all
of that across the board. Now, the other conversation is,
he's not that guy right now. What does it look
(10:17):
like for Aaron Rodgers to to and do the Steelers
have a game managing unit?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Can Aaron be a game manager? Does he have it
in him? My guess is yes, he has that in him.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But then the second question is, Okay, are they good
enough for him to just gain manage his way into
a playoff spot?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah? Really interesting?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So taking a deep dive into Pittsburgh Steelers before we
came on. You think about some of the moves they
made in the offseason. Dk Metcalf now has a partner.
When they made the trade for Michael Pittman, you now
go and get Jeremy Bernard in the second round. So
on the perimeter, you have some big body playmakers that
expand the strikes on. You have some guys that can
catch these underneath passes and break a tackle, turn some
(11:00):
of those short passes.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Into big games.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And then you got a route runner and Jeremy Minard
that really reminds me a lot of Render Cobb in
terms of his ability to get open in the slot.
When I looked at the numbers next Gen stats last year,
Lance Aaron Rodgers led the league with thirty two percent
of his passes we're at or behind the line of scrimmage.
Thirty two percent of his or third of his passes,
(11:25):
we're at or behind the line of scrimmage. So we're
talking about bubble city all day for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
The other part that matches with that is because he's
at forty two years old, he doesn't want to get
hit time to throw two five to nine fastest, fastest
of all the court.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I mean it is in out, it's catch it, rip it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So the Steelers are basically trying to surround it with
guys that can make it happen when they get the
ball in their hands, either because of their superior size
and strength.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Or because of their wiggle.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But what we do know they gonna open this thing
up and they're gonna throw a bunch of bubble screens
and slants, and they're hoping that they can control the
game in a ball control fashion with a quick rhythm
passing game.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's interesting because you know they added Rico Dowdell, who
I like him a lot. I thought he looked really
good in Carolina. So where you had a change of
pace player in Kenned Gamewell last year behind Jalen Warren.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Who is a rock steady, you know, three down player.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
For you, you've got more of a player who can
take on a heavier lift from a running standpoint. Frankly,
in both of these running backs and Warren and Dowell.
So you built yourself now by adding Bernard, by adding Pittman,
you got another big ball winner who's more of a
possession of receiver with Pittman, who can make the short
catches when he's contested. You've got Bernard, who can run
(12:41):
a lot of you know, is going to be very
good with the option routes and things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Underneath you mentioned Randall Cobb, but.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Then you've also added another more physical back, so if
you want to run the football, you can run it.
You've got two blocking tight ends in Firemouth and Darnell Washington.
So it is an interesting balance as I look look
at this roster, it is an interesting balance of you
got the deep ball big guy in Metcalf who can
(13:07):
run certain you know, vertical all stay on the vertical tree.
You got an option guy inside with Bernard. You got
a possession, physical, possession receiver with Pittman. But then you
also have hammerheads at defense at tight end who can run,
block for you, and two running backs who can take
you know, can potentially handle a heavier lift. So the
Steelers look like they are built to play a couple
(13:29):
different styles of football depending on opponents.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now, going on the way back to the time together
in Green Bay, one of the things that Green Bay
would do is they would line up in the shotgunspread.
They would go empty, but they would go empty out
of all different types of personnel groupings. Sometimes you see
them have twelve personnel on the field, but they're in
empty formation because their tight ends were good enough to
be able to run those routes on the perimeter. There
were other times where they would have what we call
zero and five. It would be five wide receivers on
(13:54):
the field and Randall Cobb or TOI Montgomery would kind
of play that running back role behind him, and they
had a lot of versatility to be able to do things.
When I look at this team, they won't necessarily be
able to do that, but they do have the ability
to kind of control the game and play a very
slow and deliberate style. Now, a lot of this we
talked about perimeter weapons. This rebuilt or retooled offensive line
(14:18):
will will have to play a part. So this is
what's interesting to me about the Steelers and their draft.
Roger Jones had an injury last year. They still don't
know if he's gonna be able to come back at
the beginning of the year, so they go and get
max Ahna Schort in the first round.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
They take him.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Now, some people say the debate they're trying to They
were on clock with Makay Lemmon didn't work out, so
any way to get MAXI hona chort. They're moving Tony
but fine. Over to the other side. They have Jennings Duncker,
who they took in the third round in rookie Minnichamp.
He line to be guard, and so I'm looking at
this team and I'm like, oh, what a minute. We're
(14:52):
moving people around. It appears they're trying to show up
the inside to protect Aaron Rodgers because now things in
his face will make them nervous guys going sides. So
as much as I like the perimeter, I just have
questions about the entry. When you look at the offensive line,
how do you feel about it?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Well, so I'm a I'm a fan of Batanu, whether
he's on the left side or right side, Mason McCormick is.
I think he's steady inside. Dunker's gonna have some some
issues early on with his move from tackle to guard.
Pass pro can get away from him at time. I
just think I just think that whether he plays tackle
or well, he has to play guard. To me, he's
(15:30):
he's going to have some There's gonna be a learning
curve for him in pass protection. I like Zach Frasier
at center, so but hanachure if he wins that job.
We're talking about a player, as you know Bucky, who
was already He's already.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Raw and needs more work. So the best thing you
can do for a tackle like that is have a
quarterback that gets the ball out.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
For the Pittsburgh Steelers, you're in a.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Weird spot because you need Aaron to hang on to
it a little longer and maybe try to expand that
average depth of target a little bit more this year
towards more intermediate throws as opposed to so many short
throws and a lot of them are just called easy,
quick game throws. But for the long term success of
(16:16):
the Steelers, I think Aaron's got to step out of
his comfort.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Zone a little bit.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
But the only way he's going to do that is
if he feels protected. And I'm not sure when I
look at this, if I see I'm not sure if
the left guard spot is going to protect as well
as it needs to or the right tackle spot, depending
on whether they're playing a Hana chore and Faltanu and
what happens with Broderick Jones.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
If he plays well, he needs to play well. If
and when he comes back and then Faltano, you know,
I think he's going to be fine. So I don't know.
You said it best. Aaron's got to feel protected. If
he doesn't, it is going to be quick.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
And it's quick.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And I don't know that the Steelers are built.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Not many teams in the NFL now are built for
twelve and fourteen play drives.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's hard to win that way. It's hard to win
that way.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And so the other part, and maybe the biggest part
of the supporting cast, will the Steelers defense be good
enough to get it done. Mike McCarthy alluded to the
defense when he took the job in his opening presser
and he said, when we had a top five defense
in Green Bay, we won the Super Bowl. I would
have think that with Patrick Graham coming over, he is
leaning on Patrick Graham to trying to find a way
to make this defense, which is loaded with veterans. Hey,
(17:23):
y'all have got to play up to the standard. And
in Pittsburgh, the standard is playing championship defense. Now, let's
go because it is time for how to not Brought
to you by Wassabi Hot cloud storage. And I want
to bring you in on this topic, because boy, they
are buzzing in Cleveland about the potential QB one who
could take over one. DeShawn Watson is maybe viewed as
(17:47):
the front runner to win this quarterback competition between he
and Sheodter Sanders. And it is amazing that a year
ago Jimmy Haslin said, hey, we took a big swing
in the miss with Deshaun Watson. But Lauren, behold, here
we are on the eve of Miniicamp saying that Deshaun
Watson could be the starting quarterback in the dog Pown.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Well, I mean it shouldn't be a surprise.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Well, actually, this is a tricky one because Deshaun Watson
has not played a lot of football since twenty twenty
missed all of twenty twenty one, played six games at
twenty two, six games in twenty three, seven games in
twenty four, no games last year. I mean that's twenty one, two, three,
four five. That's five years and he's played a grand
(18:35):
total of nineteen games. I don't know if he should
have it handed to him. However, the Dashaun that we've
seen in the past, but that was a long time ago.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Bucky. That was a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That guy.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Okay, Yeah, I'm definitely giving him the starting job.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
He's he's gone through it, he's gone through adversity, he's
he's been successful, he's gone through the NFL, he's gone
through NFL defenses and learning to recoverages, and no question
about that. But can we still continue to use those
four years in Houston? Can we still use seventeen, eighteen,
nineteen and twenty in Houston because that was so long
(19:10):
ago that I can't even you know, like I haven't
seen that. Deshaun Watson. He had four years in Houston
that were good. He's had five years that he hasn't
even played or has not played well in Cleveland with
Shador Sanders. He just hasn't done it enough. I mean
he didn't he didn't play all that well last year,
but he was a rookie. I wasn't really expecting a
(19:32):
lot from him. It wasn't a great surrounding cast. This
is curious because you wonder how much they're just it
feels like they're jack hammering Deshaun Watson in How can you.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Already make this decision when you haven't even gotten through
one week a camp.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
No, Like, all we can do is is see the
clips from from OTA's and those things and know that.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Look, he's in the last year of a five year,
two hundred and thirty.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Million dollar, fully guaranteed deal that he signed when he
was traded for three first round picks and three other
draft selections. He's over forty six million dollars whether he
plays or not this year. And you're talking about a
three time Pro Bowler, and you're talking about a guy
who was playing at one point, man.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He was a top five guy in this league. He
was a top five guy in this league.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So Lance, what what I'm trying to use is I'm
trying to use the guy who won the Super Bowl
last year, Sam Donald as an example. Deshaun Watson's highs
are significantly higher than anything that Sam Donald had did
before he had the run in Minnesota. So why can't
Deshaun Watson reprise that role and regain some of the
(20:40):
Pro Bowl magic that he displayed in an offense that
Todd Munkin has already said, Look, it has some air
raiate principles. That's what he believes in. He also like
spread formations when you go back because you were right there,
boots on the ground in h Down when he was
playing for Billy O'Brien. That's when Deshaun Watson was killing it.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Yeah. But but does that Deshaun exist anymore? I mean
he's been through two big knee, a big two big injuries,
one achilles, I think one was a knee at shoulder shoulder,
So you've had two very debilitating injuries. He's missed two
years of football completely, twenty one and twenty five. Like,
(21:21):
if we want to talk, I can talk all day
about what I saw in Houston and that that quarterback
the highs and the lows, and there were not very
many lows.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It was not on the field. It was really really good.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Even when even when he wasn't making his reads quickly,
it wasn't recognizing that he still made plays. He still
was able to make winning plays. It's just Bucky, can
we get all the way back there is Deshaun? I
think a really fair, honest question that you and I
can have because I think we're pretty real here is
he does he love ball?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean, does does DeShawn still love ball? The way?
I know he's got his personal life and we see
it on social media and that's good. He's got that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Part of it is he still locked in to ball
the way he needs to be as an NFL quarterback,
because that takes a unique level of commitment. And just
to Sean, after five years of either below average play
or not even playing in many instances, is he still
(22:22):
in love with ball? I think that question has to
be asked.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, I think it's a fair question to ask.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
But I would counter and say, man, if he didn't
love ball, he's gonna go through two Achilles injury surgeries
and comeback. He's gonna go through all of the stuff
that he had to do to comeback to this point
because the money was coming to him regardless of whether
he played or not.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So to me, that shows that he does have an
affinity for the game.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
The other part that stands out to me is last
year when she d Sander has had an opportunity to
get the start and Deshaun Watson went on the road
and he got closed with Dylan Gabriel and she do
her and kind of help them prep to get ready
and kind of threw himself back into the I thought
there was a significant development because it showed his maturity
no matter what a lot of those young guys looked
(23:06):
up to him. Even those young guys in the locker room,
they kind of remember when he was still a bit
of the star because look, he was viewed as the
next big thing. He was going to be the next
superstar quarterback. They paid him like he was a superstar.
So there is still some of that cachet. But you're right,
he's gonna have to do it. He's gonna have to
do it in between the lines. He's gonna have to
show us that he can be that feel good story.
(23:28):
But the way that they're talking about him, it certainly
appears he's on his way to having an opportunity to
have that comeback story.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
See. And here's the other thing I want to say
about Shador, because you know wrote him up, gave him
a six' three to, zero which is the same GRADE
i Gave Ty.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Simpson you really want to know the. Truth AND i
know What shador did well in. COLLEGE i know what
he didn't do as well in. COLLEGE i Think i'm
pretty fair and objective when it comes To. Shador there
is all of the hype and the draft day theatrics
around shaudor not being, drafted where some people thought he
(24:04):
should have been or. Whatever that rubbed a lot of
people the wrong. Way and so in the world of,
sports if you don't like the fans of a.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Team then you all of a sudden hate that.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Team AND i think the people there are a lot
of people who are kind of Anti Shador sanders because
of elements that are maybe beyond his control and don't
have anything to do with. Football but as a football,
PLAYER i still think he has a chance to become
AN nfl starting. QUARTERBACK i really. Do he's got good pocket.
(24:35):
Poise he's got great pocket. POISE i think he's got
an awareness that you need to have in THE. Nfl
needs to get a lot Better.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Shador.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Has he has to learn to get rid of the ball.
More he takes too many bad sacks and he moves
backwards in a. Pocket and we can point out what
he doesn't do, well BUT i think he does some
things well and does some things where he has the
potential to still develop as a. QUARTERBACK i would not
just give up on. Him IF i were The Cleveland,
BROWNS i would. NOT i still think that there's some
(25:04):
development that's. Possible all of The dion stuff and the
additional stuff and the talk. Shows it's Not shador's fault
that some of that over shadows who he is or
what he's trying to, do and all he can do
is keep his head. Down learn From Deshaun watson because
this may be a year where he's taking mental reps.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And you, know he may not get on the.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
FIELD a whole lot Is deshaun stays healthy the whole.
Time but that's not necessarily a bad. Thing AND i
do think it's good to learn From Todd. MUNKIN i
don't know if you saw, This, bucky But Todd munkin
was asked about quarterbacks in the seven on Sevens, ooh
he was. Heated he, said how are we throwing interceptions
on seven on? Seven For god's? Sake how are we throwing?
Interceptions and seven on? SEVEN i was, Like, yes this
(25:49):
is What cleveland. Needs they need that kind of.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Honesty, look they not only needed that kind of, honesty
but they needed somebody who wanted to work with each
of these. QUARTERBACKS i Think Todd munkin is uniquely qualified
to do. It the work that he had that he
did With Lamar. Jackson Lamar jackson won his SECOND mvp under,
him when he was at, college he Recruited Shoudua sanders
and was okay with, Him so obviously going into, it
(26:12):
there's gonna be a mutual, respect a mutual trust that
is going to allow him maybe to get the best
out of not Only Shouldurah, sanders but the best out
Of Deshaun. Watson we'll see what that looks. Like that
was this Week's hot Or not, segment brought to you
By Wassabi Hot Cloud. Storage store more and do more
with your. Data try them for free At wassabi dot.
(26:34):
Com let's take a break after. This we're going to
talk about these top five tight end position. Groups all, RIGHT,
lz we're, back AND i always like to rope you
in Because i'm in the middle of writing this piece
FOR nfl dot com on the explosion of the tight
end position coming off the draft where we SAW i
think it was twenty something tight ends that were selected
(26:55):
over a three day weekend coming off of last year's
see and where we saw a ton of teams utilized
twelve and thirteen. PERSONNEL i wanted to dig into these top,
groupings but before we do, THAT i want you to
just kind of give me your opinion to. Stay the
tight ends and the way that you're seeing them one
(27:16):
valued based on what you've seen in scouting the college.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Game but also the conversation you have with some of
these guys around the. League, yeah it's.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Interesting i've been doing this for THE. Nfl i've been
doing it, longer but for THE nfl for twelve, years
twelve drafts and watching the state of THE. Nfl for one,
THING i remember when quarterbacks it was not so rare
to see quarterbacks lining up under.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Center then it became extremely.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Rare and you, know we've gone in cycles four, wides three.
Wides now there was a lot of pistol. Everything pistol
was going to change. Everything the zone read was going
to change. Everything and so football truly is. Cyclical right
now we're cycling back.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
To combination tight.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Ends not only the tight ends being more, Prevalent, bucky
but what type of tight ends the if it's no
longer just you AND i talked about it on draft,
day you really do have To now it used to
just be, okay you're an f.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Tit if you're a white tight, end you may or
may not even get. Drafted you may not even have
a chance to get it. Drafted if you're a True.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Why now you got guys Like Nate borkchire going in
the second, round and it started an entire run on tight.
Ends so it's we're really in a different spot now
where we've gone back to all, right you're gonna come
with shell.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Coverages we are going to run the.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Ball but it's not just about having a Standard why
tight end and then an f tight end who can
maybe function as a combination tight end where you can run.
Twelve THE nfl now really would like to have as
many versatile tight end options as possible so that when
they line up in, twelve it's not necessarily it's not
(28:53):
necessarily a heavy.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Set if they line up in.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Thirteen there is still versatility for them to throw in
and do some interesting things out of thirteen. Sets and
the tight end now bucky for me WHEN i was scouting,
THIS i started, realizing especially over the last two. Years
but you could go back to the draft That Dalton
kincaid was, in which is a very deep tight end,
draft that the tight end now is the mismatch, position
(29:16):
and it's a more subtle mismatch, position but what it's
become is the position that if you don't match it
up properly, defensively then teams can run against, you or
if you don't match it up, properly that tight end
can maybe exploit you in the passing. Game SO i
think it's fascinating that the tight, ends which are almost
forgotten for a, segment you, know for about a decade of,
(29:37):
football basically.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Not only are they, back but they're being used as
a mismatch.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
WEAPON i think that's very, interesting but it does show
this sport is very much Sickler.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah very sickl.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
AGO a couple years, ago we were talking about a
team shouldn't run, football and now everyone is going back
to the running game based on how the defense has
played with light boxes in too deep.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
COVERAGE i think it is.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Interesting this to me is a direct rep direct reaction
to what Vig fanjo and the others have been doing
with those two high safeties light. Boxes teams are going
to use the tight end to get back to run the.
Football when you have multiple tight ends on the, field
it does a few different things in the run. Game
it creates extra. Gaps it forces the defense to make
a hard decision on whether they in their base or
(30:18):
their nickel. Coverage if they do go, nickel they have
to decide do you want to go little nickel with
a deep with a, corner do you want to go
big nickel with the? Safety and then you want to
can those little guys match up with that second tight
end in the running. Game, well we're also seeing now
last year The rams stumbled upon. IT i was actually
there in the building when they stumbled upon.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
It against The.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Jaguars they had, Injuries pukinnakua couldn't. Play you just basically
Had Devontae adams and a bunch of tight. Ends they
go thirteen, personnel one, back three tight ends and they
have a hell of a day against The. Jaguars that
leads them to lead the league in thirteen. Personnel they
had one hundred and thirty one snaps with three tight
ends on the. Field the league last year had eighteen
(31:03):
hundred and forty five snaps with three plus tight ends
on the. Field, So, lance this is a trend that
isn't going, anywhere and it's one of those things that
they're going to continue to talk. About AND i Know
James gladstone took a lot of heat for taking a
tight End berkershire From TEXAS a AND m with the
second round. Pick but we saw right after that when
(31:23):
we were On Draft, center hey, man there was a
run on tight ends that took place right after he.
Went the league is serious about taking on these tight,
ends and so we need to be ready this year
to see two and three tight ends on the field a,
ton because it's.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Coming, yeah so you Had Marlon klein immediately The texans
moved him up presumably about a. ROUND i would Say
Max clair kind of went where the EARLIEST i thought
he could go would be the late.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Second but in most.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
PROJECTIONS i, had in the most SIMULATIONS i ran in
some of my league, CONTACTS i felt like he was
probably going. Third Sam ROUCH i thought would be late.
Third he ends up going early. Third Oscar, delp great,
tester he went way earlier in the. Third, like you're,
right everyone got pushed up around all these tight, ends
and it's because everyone had the same. Idea we're going heavier,
(32:12):
twelve or we're even going to some thirteen because it
is a copycat.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
League but.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
You, KNOW i, mean this is what.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Happens there's always a pendulum. Swing there's always a pendulum
swing if you go too far this, way then we're
gonna come back this way and.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Mismatching, Yeah so speaking of, Mismatches i'm gonna give you
my top five tight end grouping positions by a, team
and THEN i want to HAVE i want to pick
a couple teams to touch on on that. List number,
ONE i got The La rams because if they started a,
trend they sure they should be at the front end
of this given what they. Did and number two you
talked About Dalton. KINCAID i love the pairing Of Dawson
(32:50):
knox And Dalton. Kinkaid that's WHY i have. Them, Second
Las vegas The, Raiders Rock. Bauers michael Maher is read
that you're gonna have two guys that really are tight end.
Ones they have It Chicago. Bears after, That Cole, Comeck Coaston. Lovelin,
uh they Drafted Sam. ROWS i just think the possibilities
are endless With Ben johnson At Creative. Mind and then
lastly we talked about in the first section of the
(33:11):
podcast With Aaron, rodgers we talked About Pat friarmouth And
Darnelle washington giving him two blocking tight. Ends, well just
because we're making the list of top fives doesn't, mean
we're talking about the pass.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Catchers we're talking about difference.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Makers these Guys frimouth And, washington they should be able
to make.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
A difference in the run.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Game let's talk pick three teams to talk, about BUT
i want to get your take on the L A,
Rams Tyler, Higbee Kobe, Parkinson Terrence, Ferguson Davis, allen and
then we Got Max. Claire first thing that comes to.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
MIND i mean they're gonna they're gonna keep four, obviously
AND i think you when you look at, this you
have a series of tight ends who can who can
be Multiple Max claire is gonna be a pass, catcher
but you've got some tight ends in here who are
who can, run who can run seams can hit you
with longer routes in terms of average depth of. Target
(34:03):
what they're doing is they can free the quarterback to
be the. Quarterback he didn't have to, make you, Know Terrence,
FERGUSON i mean Even Terrence. Ferguson, WOW i mean these
are five tight ends that should be able to make
it on most.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Rosters if you look at, that just these, FIVE i see.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
QUARTERBACKS i see tight ends who do not limit what
the what the quarterback can, do in, fact compliment what
the quarterback does. Well and it looks just as by
Adding Max claire here into the, group all you've done
is strengthen their ability to throw a tight end out,
there if not this, year the next, year a tight
(34:40):
end who can beat guys as a route runner and
mismatch you if you don't go to the right personnel.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Groups, yeah now you're talking about going to the right personnel.
Groups The rams certainly have that when you look at
what they were able to. Do i'm just looking at this.
Man this group combined for like a one hundred and
sixty one. Targets you look at the numbers that they
put up combined for fourteen. Touchdowns they had a ton of.
Production and even though we talked about putting the cop
in The DeVante, adams their tight ends are really where
(35:08):
they can run the offense.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Through they continue to do.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
So now another team that could run their passing game
through the tight, ends The Buffalo. Bills Dawson knox and
Dualn kin cad are interesting Because King kid is the
first round. Pick nawson has been established up there last.
Year lands they combine for seventy five catches nine hundred
ninety eight yards and nine, touchdowns And kinkaid missed five
Games When KING k was coming, Out what were your
(35:31):
initial thoughts on him when you did discount of?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Report loved, him Loved Dalton.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
KINCAID i thought he had a matter of staying, healthy
BUT i Thought dalton had can't miss, hands was a
reliable threat on three. LEVELS i was a huge fan
Of Dalton. Kinkad i'm still a fan Of Dalton kincaid's
and so this might be AS i look At buffalo
And i'm gonna Throwing Jackson hawes as, well who's a,
(35:56):
grimy a grimy run blocking offensive tight, end slash offensive.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Tackle basically not that he's that, big but he's that.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
Nasty you've Got Dawson knox who can function as a
combo tight end but really get after. It as a
Why dalton's going to be your pass? Catcher pause is
a true? Why this might be the best three for
me in terms of a. Standard this sets the standards
for a, combo a pass, catcher and a true you
(36:27):
know in the, cut why in the, mud why that
might be the best trio THAT i?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
See and WHEN i Saw KINKAID i was a huge
fan Of Kincaid's. KNOX i was, like and this is
in NINETEEN i, thought, ah you, Know knox is.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Okay but that's back when we weren't looking at combination
ty where you wanted to see the guys that could
make some catches and we're.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Going to make a little bit of. Noise NOW i
have a much greater appreciation.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
After Watching Dalton knox for what he can do on
downs one through, three not just you know on downs
one and.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Two it's one through three for. Him he's kind of
a complete tight.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
End and the other two, definitely you, Know Kincaid i'm
a big fan, of And hawes has his role as.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, yeah they're really.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Good Joe brady did a great job of putting that
together in front Of Josh allen when he took over
as the offensive play. Caller and the one thing that
he talked about he said he grew up in a
tree where tight ends were the easiest way to create the.
Mismatches that tree certainly was set By Sean. Payton you
got to Give Joe brady credit for expanding.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It out In.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Buffalo, now this is the one that's the most fascinating
one to. Me the last team that we will talk
about The Las Vegas, Raiders Rock bowers And Michael. Weyer
they Drafted Michael myer the year before they Take. Brocks
Brock barers they take with the thirteenth overall, pick and
he has been absolutely phenomenal since coming. Over these, Numbers
lance are. Stupid twenty nine games, played one hundred and
(37:49):
seventy six, catches eighteen hundred and seventy four, yards twelve,
touchdowns twenty four. Starts that rookie season he had one
hundred and twelve, catches eleven hundred and ninety four receiving,
yards and five TOWN i, mean you just talked about
a guy who's a freak of. Nature, Look Cliff Clint
kubiak talked about you just don't get these kind of
(38:09):
guys like he's a robot from The Football. Heavans when
you think about that Combination bowers And, Meyer, uh how
hard does?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
It just deal with? Them?
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yeah And bowers doesn't enough as a, blocker And myers
can do. Both so WHEN i Saw Gary kubiak's offense
back with The Houston, texans they Had Owen daniels who
could do. Well they Had joel dreeson at first From Colorado,
state who handled a lot of the heavy lifting from
a run blocking, standpoint and then you Had Owen daniels
who was kind of a.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Combination he did enough as a run.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Blocker he got a little bit better because you have
to If Alex gibbs is is heading up your your
run game, stuff he's gonna everyone's got a. Block everyone's
got a. Block and, Uh Owen daniels got to be
a functional to you, know above average blocker there as
a run, blocker but he was a really good pass.
Catcher so they Had joel drees and then they Had
James casey.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Who was kind of an h.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Back then they Added Garrett graham From So i've seen
this mode before and to, Me Brock, Bowers brock is
kind of a one of. ONE i can't compare anybody
That Gary kubak ever had To Brock bowers because he's
just really special as a pass. Catcher but from a side,
standpoint there is Some there actually is Some.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Owen daniels in. Here if you want to go all
the way, back Myers is gives you a.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Chance like he's not a he's not going to be
somebody that doesn't allow you to run out of twelve
personnel and throw the ball out a twelve Person he
can run out of.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Twelve you can throw out a twelve with. HIM i like.
That for The, RAIDERS i.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Still think they're probably a. Third there's still a. Third
we'll see IF i How Ian thomas can, do but
they're probably still a third tight end.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Away you, know maybe next year of getting to where
he's going to want to.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Be but they have more than enough right now for,
Sure AND i Think raiders fans are going to be
very happy with.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
What you. Know bowers numbers look. Good last, year he
was really he had three.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Touchdowns in one game he had two and another hit seven,
totals so he really kind of got him in. BUNCHES
i think you're gonna see a more Consistent Brock bowers
attack this. Year it's kind of like we saw in
twenty twenty. FOUR i think that's what you'll see With
Brock bowers this.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Year but if there is going to be a coach
who understands how to get the most out of his tight,
ends it's going to Be Clint, kubiak because that's what
that coaching tree is all.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
About their coaching tree is all about.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
That last year with The Seattle, seahawks they ran twelve
personnel about twenty nine percent of the. Time The raiders
last year did it thirty three percent of. Time so
we stepping into an environment that he already. Knows so
you can best believe The Silver black line up with
two tight ends or more on most, downs and they're
gonna find a way to take advantage of their.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Personnel that's a third third tight end, group, Right, yeah
that's third ton.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
End i'm gonna hit you with the bonus that you
didn't mention young Guns Kenyon sadiq And mason out of The.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Jets oh what do you think of those two?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Guys, well LOOK i liked, them AND i liked them right.
AWAY i love the. Draft, look we went.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Excited it was one of those oh no moments that
we had Doing Draft center when everything was going, on
because you're, like, look they just Took Mason. Taylor now
they're gonna come back and Take Kenya. Sadik you can
already see all of the chaos that they can. CREATE
i just couldn't put them up there yet because we
hadn't seen them. Play BUT i am very optimistic about
what they can do for this. Offense i'm LOOKING i
(41:28):
think they're going to Help Gino smith get back on
track because being able to have two big bodies that
can control over the middle With Garret wilson on the,
Outside Adie mitchell on the other, side and Then Omark
cooper kind of playing in the. Slot this is a
much different offense from The. Jets and we haven't even
talked about the running. Game but those two tight ends
did a lynch, fence AND i think we will talk
about them a.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Ton when we get to it in the. Fall YEP i.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
Feel the same way about. Him i'm really excited about
the future of those two. Guys i'm a Big Mason
taylor fan so AND i was A Kenyan sadig fan as,
well so it's a matter of finding the right, quarterback
having the right guy in the. MIX i love the
potential those two young guys for.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Sure, look, man you know WHAT i.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
LIKE i like the potential of talking With elze multiple
times a week doing it on the. Podcast this was, Fun.
LANCE i love doing the deep, dive. MAN i appreciate
you joining me coming on. Guys that's the episode for this.
Week make sure You tune back next. Week On, monday
we're gonna drop another hot, one me And elze
Welcome to move the six.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I m Bucky Brooks, and my guy on the other
side of the screen is LZ, the one and only
Lance Airline, and he is here to help me talking
about all the latest and greatest things that are popping
off in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
But first Lance, I gotta tell you, how's Agetown holding
it down?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Oh it's good. Just a lot of rain this week.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
We uh, we're just watching the h How far away
our Rockets are from being on the same level of
Oklahoma City and the Spurs anybody in the Western Conference? Now,
after watching Wimby, we already knew about oak City, But
after watching Wimby, you gotta say.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Man, our squad is a long way way, long wain way.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh look, man, I'm gonna say this and we'll end
up doing this on a later episode. I am fascinated
by the way both of those teams have been built,
and they weren't slow rebuilds. But looking at OKAC and
San Antonio, you can't tell me that those two teams
are not gonna take terms.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Dominating in the NBA for the next decade.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Like just the way that the Spurs are constructed with
Winby in the middle the young players that they've been
able to kind of finally get up and going, and okay,
see just nailing the draft and being a slow cooker process, like, hey,
we're gonna draft develop and when they pop, they pop,
and they're just gonna reign supreme over the NBA. And
I know you talk about the Rockets out here out West,
(01:23):
they talk about the Lakers. I just don't think they
have a chance messing over those teams. Messing over those
teams over the next decade.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
You can make whatever moves you want, and it's rele
relevant to the conversation we're having right now because I
think team building.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So I do a sports talk show.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
You do sports talk, so we follow all the sports, right,
but then we major in football conversation and I'm major.
I do a lot of pro football, but also draft,
and you do the same thing. I've always been fascinated
by team building. I'm kind of studied it on the
baseball side, on the basketball side, on the football side.
It's different different ways to achieve the team building goals,
(02:02):
but the way teams build is always fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And I wonder how many of our.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Viewer slash listeners would be surprised to know that a
lot of people in the NFL or in Major League
Baseball will travel to go speak with general managers and
other sports to try to get insights. I was in
Indianapolis in twenty eighteen and they had the general managers.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Real young guy.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I can't remember who the gym of the Phoenix hockey
team was. I don't really follow NHL, but I got
to sit in the meeting where he and his right
hand man were sitting in there talking to the Colts
front office about how they do things and how they
recognize certain traits.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And then the Colts.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Were asking questions about like Ballad would ask questions about,
you know, their combine and whether or not traits, how
much traits mattered to them. I know Chris Ballad has
studied under I know he's gone and spoken. He's good
friends with Jeff, but he's gone and visit with theo
Epstein before and in different gms. And that happens with basketball.
(03:08):
Dennis Lindsay, who's now with the I've known Dennis for years.
He's been with the Spurs, the Mavericks, and now he's
with the Pistons. He's gone cross Sport to go talk
because you can glean I think, ideas in the way
that other people look at team building.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know, I think is it's really interesting because I
do believe there's crossover. I've always been fascinated like this
time of year in the playoffs and looking at the
champions are the teams that make it to the finals
in any sport, whether it's basketball in the NBA, to
see a what did this team do to kind of
have this level of success, whether it's hockey. I remember
(03:44):
a few years ago when the Tampa Bay Lightning went
back to back. This is before the Florida Panthers became
the team, but looking at their culture and examining what
worked for them, Looking at the Cubs when Joe Madden
was with the Cubs and they finally won a.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
World Series, why was it able to pop for them?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
All team builders should be able to look to other
team builders for clues and for things that they can
glean that can help them within their respective sport. Part
of what we do is to always be learning to
have a growth mindset, and certainly that crosses sports and
whatever sport you're in, it crosses that you can find
success pattering your teams and your team building models after
(04:23):
other programs.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's always different ways.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
To to to succeed.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
A lot of different ways, and sometimes you need someone
outside of the box who has a different vision or
a different idea or a different concept for building. It's
just a fresh perspective. That's why you can find different
things in different sports.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
You may not, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
For me, I've always looked at cross sports, like in boxing.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I grew up a huge boxing.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Fan, and a lot of us did if we grew
up in the eighties and nineties, really the heyday, and
I used to look at and for me, watching guys
like Matt Mike the body snatcher, McCallum, you know, these
guys the bodies.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Launching, Julio Caesar Chavez.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
You know, like these are body punchers, and I like
in that to the running game in football, My dad
was no line coach, and we would talk about the
wearing down and the attrition in the fourth quarter the
same way body punching. And now it can be leg kicks,
and you know in combat sports and mixed martial arts,
how it has an impact in the championship rounds or
the championship quarter.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
The fourth quarter. You know, there's there's different there's different
things you can take from different sports and combine them.
Especially in the game of football.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I think, yeah, you absolutely can't combine them.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And you know, like we talked about crossover sports, one
of the things that's fascinating to me that's within our
own sports. So obviously I'll make this crossover. When I
was in Green Bay a lot of times, we spent
a lot of time looking at Vince Lombardi and success.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
All the pitchers are on the wall.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, the most fascinating story that we have in the
NFL this year is gonna be Aaron Rodgers reuniting with
Mike McCarthy and Pittsburgh. Aaron Rodgers recently signed that one year,
twenty two million dollar deal that can go up to
twenty five million and incentives, and he rejoins the coach
that really helped him get his career off the ground,
helped him kind of set the foundation for being a
(06:16):
multiple time MVP, and helped him win his only Super
Bowl as they did it knocking off the Pittsburgh still
his years ago. When you think about Aaron Rodgers rejoining
his old guy, Mike McCarthy, what's the first thing to
come to mind.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I mean, for me, it's friction because I know how
it ended so and I knew people who were in
new who were in Green Bay at the time, and
it wasn't it wasn't great at the end, but they
had a lot of success together and there was a
lot of good football. I just I thought that was
a curious pairing because I wondered how Aaron would be.
(06:51):
He's probably more sett in his ways than he's ever been.
We all get that way when you get older, and
I just thought that was for Aaron to come back
and play, I think it shows a willingness. I'd like
to hope it shows a willingness to kind of work
together and try to hit reset on that relationship. I mean,
Aaron's more limited now, He's not the same player he
once was physically. But I don't know what your answer
(07:13):
was to that question, Buck. For me, I just thought
of the way it ended personally.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, the way that ended was not great.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
But what I'm hopeful for if you're Pittsburgh still iss man,
you hope for that both of these guys have had
time away from each other to probably reflect and have
a greater appreciation for what they did for one another
and how they were able to elevate each other. What
I would say about Mike McCarthy having When I was
in Kansas City as a player, Mike McCarthy was a
quarterback coach. Mike McCarthy is uniquely qualified to coach Aaron Rodgers,
(07:43):
not because of their previous success, but Mike McCarthy coach
Joe Montana at the end of his career, and anyone
that understands how to deal with superstars, superstars who are
no longer what they once were, but in their mind
they still feel like they're the goat, they're the guy.
I think his experience with Joe Montana will help him
(08:04):
have the right balance of grace and grit to kind
of get whatever he can get out of Aaron Rodgers.
The grace and knowing, hey, man, you're not able to
do some of those things that you were able to
do before, where we used to run around and make
plays on second reaction things and throw it over the
top of the defense. The grit part is, hey, we're
gonna have to have some of these tough conversations. I've
(08:25):
given you a lot of freedom in the past where
you've gone away from the game plan and done and
done some things that look fit your skill set, but
maybe not everybody else.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
We don't have to have these tough conversations because I'm
gona need you to run the ball a little more.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You can be able to kind of wipe away some
of those things that you used to do with checks
and things at the line of scrimmer, so we can
stay true to the compliments that have to carry you
the supporting cast as opposed to you being everything. I
think that experience should help him in that. I would
expect to see Aaron Rodgers play fairly well for Mike McCarthy,
even though it's gonna look drastically different than it did
(08:59):
the first time.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I Yeah, the Aaron Rodgers that Mike McCarthy is going
to remember is not the same one now. There's just
certain throws that Aaron won't even really attempt anymore, not much.
And uh, you know, I wonder it's a tricky conversation
because there's two different there's Aaron Rodgers conversation now with
(09:20):
the Pittsburgh Steelers. I think it puts Pittsburgh in a
bind having an aging quarterback who is not going to
you know, there's only I think there's a ceiling on
how well Aaron can play this year.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
And then you look at the Steelers and.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I thought the draft was just okay. I look at
the growth like, I think they're going to be in
a state of flux next year once they have to
figure out quarterback, because I think they definitely have to
figure out quarterback. But then the other conversation is the
greatness of Aaron Rodgers as an all time player, the
greatest throw of the football that I've ever witnessed.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I've never never seen.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Anyone who had that ability, spatial awareness, release quickness, the
ability to throw on the move, to make clutch throws
like he's the greatest I've ever seen, armslot at all
of that across the board. Now, the other conversation is,
he's not that guy right now. What does it look
(10:17):
like for Aaron Rodgers to to and do the Steelers
have a game managing unit?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Can Aaron be a game manager? Does he have it
in him? My guess is yes, he has that in him.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But then the second question is, Okay, are they good
enough for him to just gain manage his way into
a playoff spot?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah? Really interesting?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So taking a deep dive into Pittsburgh Steelers before we
came on. You think about some of the moves they
made in the offseason. Dk Metcalf now has a partner.
When they made the trade for Michael Pittman, you now
go and get Jeremy Bernard in the second round. So
on the perimeter, you have some big body playmakers that
expand the strikes on. You have some guys that can
catch these underneath passes and break a tackle, turn some
(11:00):
of those short passes.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Into big games.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And then you got a route runner and Jeremy Minard
that really reminds me a lot of Render Cobb in
terms of his ability to get open in the slot.
When I looked at the numbers next Gen stats last year,
Lance Aaron Rodgers led the league with thirty two percent
of his passes we're at or behind the line of scrimmage.
Thirty two percent of his or third of his passes,
(11:25):
we're at or behind the line of scrimmage. So we're
talking about bubble city all day for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
The other part that matches with that is because he's
at forty two years old, he doesn't want to get
hit time to throw two five to nine fastest, fastest
of all the court.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I mean it is in out, it's catch it, rip it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So the Steelers are basically trying to surround it with
guys that can make it happen when they get the
ball in their hands, either because of their superior size
and strength.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Or because of their wiggle.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But what we do know they gonna open this thing
up and they're gonna throw a bunch of bubble screens
and slants, and they're hoping that they can control the
game in a ball control fashion with a quick rhythm
passing game.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's interesting because you know they added Rico Dowdell, who
I like him a lot. I thought he looked really
good in Carolina. So where you had a change of
pace player in Kenned Gamewell last year behind Jalen Warren.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Who is a rock steady, you know, three down player.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
For you, you've got more of a player who can
take on a heavier lift from a running standpoint. Frankly,
in both of these running backs and Warren and Dowell.
So you built yourself now by adding Bernard, by adding Pittman,
you got another big ball winner who's more of a
possession of receiver with Pittman, who can make the short
catches when he's contested. You've got Bernard, who can run
(12:41):
a lot of you know, is going to be very
good with the option routes and things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Underneath you mentioned Randall Cobb, but.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Then you've also added another more physical back, so if
you want to run the football, you can run it.
You've got two blocking tight ends in Firemouth and Darnell Washington.
So it is an interesting balance as I look look
at this roster, it is an interesting balance of you
got the deep ball big guy in Metcalf who can
(13:07):
run certain you know, vertical all stay on the vertical tree.
You got an option guy inside with Bernard. You got
a possession, physical, possession receiver with Pittman. But then you
also have hammerheads at defense at tight end who can run,
block for you, and two running backs who can take
you know, can potentially handle a heavier lift. So the
Steelers look like they are built to play a couple
(13:29):
different styles of football depending on opponents.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now, going on the way back to the time together
in Green Bay, one of the things that Green Bay
would do is they would line up in the shotgunspread.
They would go empty, but they would go empty out
of all different types of personnel groupings. Sometimes you see
them have twelve personnel on the field, but they're in
empty formation because their tight ends were good enough to
be able to run those routes on the perimeter. There
were other times where they would have what we call
zero and five. It would be five wide receivers on
(13:54):
the field and Randall Cobb or TOI Montgomery would kind
of play that running back role behind him, and they
had a lot of versatility to be able to do things.
When I look at this team, they won't necessarily be
able to do that, but they do have the ability
to kind of control the game and play a very
slow and deliberate style. Now, a lot of this we
talked about perimeter weapons. This rebuilt or retooled offensive line
(14:18):
will will have to play a part. So this is
what's interesting to me about the Steelers and their draft.
Roger Jones had an injury last year. They still don't
know if he's gonna be able to come back at
the beginning of the year, so they go and get
max Ahna Schort in the first round.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
They take him.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Now, some people say the debate they're trying to They
were on clock with Makay Lemmon didn't work out, so
any way to get MAXI hona chort. They're moving Tony
but fine. Over to the other side. They have Jennings Duncker,
who they took in the third round in rookie Minnichamp.
He line to be guard, and so I'm looking at
this team and I'm like, oh, what a minute. We're
(14:52):
moving people around. It appears they're trying to show up
the inside to protect Aaron Rodgers because now things in
his face will make them nervous guys going sides. So
as much as I like the perimeter, I just have
questions about the entry. When you look at the offensive line,
how do you feel about it?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Well, so I'm a I'm a fan of Batanu, whether
he's on the left side or right side, Mason McCormick is.
I think he's steady inside. Dunker's gonna have some some
issues early on with his move from tackle to guard.
Pass pro can get away from him at time. I
just think I just think that whether he plays tackle
or well, he has to play guard. To me, he's
(15:30):
he's going to have some There's gonna be a learning
curve for him in pass protection. I like Zach Frasier
at center, so but hanachure if he wins that job.
We're talking about a player, as you know Bucky, who
was already He's already.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Raw and needs more work. So the best thing you
can do for a tackle like that is have a
quarterback that gets the ball out.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
For the Pittsburgh Steelers, you're in a.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Weird spot because you need Aaron to hang on to
it a little longer and maybe try to expand that
average depth of target a little bit more this year
towards more intermediate throws as opposed to so many short
throws and a lot of them are just called easy,
quick game throws. But for the long term success of
(16:16):
the Steelers, I think Aaron's got to step out of
his comfort.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Zone a little bit.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
But the only way he's going to do that is
if he feels protected. And I'm not sure when I
look at this, if I see I'm not sure if
the left guard spot is going to protect as well
as it needs to or the right tackle spot, depending
on whether they're playing a Hana chore and Faltanu and
what happens with Broderick Jones.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
If he plays well, he needs to play well. If
and when he comes back and then Faltano, you know,
I think he's going to be fine. So I don't know.
You said it best. Aaron's got to feel protected. If
he doesn't, it is going to be quick.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
And it's quick.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And I don't know that the Steelers are built.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Not many teams in the NFL now are built for
twelve and fourteen play drives.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's hard to win that way. It's hard to win
that way.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And so the other part, and maybe the biggest part
of the supporting cast, will the Steelers defense be good
enough to get it done. Mike McCarthy alluded to the
defense when he took the job in his opening presser
and he said, when we had a top five defense
in Green Bay, we won the Super Bowl. I would
have think that with Patrick Graham coming over, he is
leaning on Patrick Graham to trying to find a way
to make this defense, which is loaded with veterans. Hey,
(17:23):
y'all have got to play up to the standard. And
in Pittsburgh, the standard is playing championship defense. Now, let's
go because it is time for how to not Brought
to you by Wassabi Hot cloud storage. And I want
to bring you in on this topic, because boy, they
are buzzing in Cleveland about the potential QB one who
could take over one. DeShawn Watson is maybe viewed as
(17:47):
the front runner to win this quarterback competition between he
and Sheodter Sanders. And it is amazing that a year
ago Jimmy Haslin said, hey, we took a big swing
in the miss with Deshaun Watson. But Lauren, behold, here
we are on the eve of Miniicamp saying that Deshaun
Watson could be the starting quarterback in the dog Pown.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Well, I mean it shouldn't be a surprise.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Well, actually, this is a tricky one because Deshaun Watson
has not played a lot of football since twenty twenty
missed all of twenty twenty one, played six games at
twenty two, six games in twenty three, seven games in
twenty four, no games last year. I mean that's twenty one, two, three,
four five. That's five years and he's played a grand
(18:35):
total of nineteen games. I don't know if he should
have it handed to him. However, the Dashaun that we've
seen in the past, but that was a long time ago.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Bucky. That was a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That guy.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Okay, Yeah, I'm definitely giving him the starting job.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
He's he's gone through it, he's gone through adversity, he's
he's been successful, he's gone through the NFL, he's gone
through NFL defenses and learning to recoverages, and no question
about that. But can we still continue to use those
four years in Houston? Can we still use seventeen, eighteen,
nineteen and twenty in Houston because that was so long
(19:10):
ago that I can't even you know, like I haven't
seen that. Deshaun Watson. He had four years in Houston
that were good. He's had five years that he hasn't
even played or has not played well in Cleveland with
Shador Sanders. He just hasn't done it enough. I mean
he didn't he didn't play all that well last year,
but he was a rookie. I wasn't really expecting a
(19:32):
lot from him. It wasn't a great surrounding cast. This
is curious because you wonder how much they're just it
feels like they're jack hammering Deshaun Watson in How can you.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Already make this decision when you haven't even gotten through
one week a camp.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
No, Like, all we can do is is see the
clips from from OTA's and those things and know that.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Look, he's in the last year of a five year,
two hundred and thirty.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Million dollar, fully guaranteed deal that he signed when he
was traded for three first round picks and three other
draft selections. He's over forty six million dollars whether he
plays or not this year. And you're talking about a
three time Pro Bowler, and you're talking about a guy
who was playing at one point, man.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He was a top five guy in this league. He
was a top five guy in this league.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So Lance, what what I'm trying to use is I'm
trying to use the guy who won the Super Bowl
last year, Sam Donald as an example. Deshaun Watson's highs
are significantly higher than anything that Sam Donald had did
before he had the run in Minnesota. So why can't
Deshaun Watson reprise that role and regain some of the
(20:40):
Pro Bowl magic that he displayed in an offense that
Todd Munkin has already said, Look, it has some air
raiate principles. That's what he believes in. He also like
spread formations when you go back because you were right there,
boots on the ground in h Down when he was
playing for Billy O'Brien. That's when Deshaun Watson was killing it.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Yeah. But but does that Deshaun exist anymore? I mean
he's been through two big knee, a big two big injuries,
one achilles, I think one was a knee at shoulder shoulder,
So you've had two very debilitating injuries. He's missed two
years of football completely, twenty one and twenty five. Like,
(21:21):
if we want to talk, I can talk all day
about what I saw in Houston and that that quarterback
the highs and the lows, and there were not very
many lows.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It was not on the field. It was really really good.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Even when even when he wasn't making his reads quickly,
it wasn't recognizing that he still made plays. He still
was able to make winning plays. It's just Bucky, can
we get all the way back there is Deshaun? I
think a really fair, honest question that you and I
can have because I think we're pretty real here is
he does he love ball?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean, does does DeShawn still love ball? The way?
I know he's got his personal life and we see
it on social media and that's good. He's got that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Part of it is he still locked in to ball
the way he needs to be as an NFL quarterback,
because that takes a unique level of commitment. And just
to Sean, after five years of either below average play
or not even playing in many instances, is he still
(22:22):
in love with ball? I think that question has to
be asked.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, I think it's a fair question to ask.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
But I would counter and say, man, if he didn't
love ball, he's gonna go through two Achilles injury surgeries
and comeback. He's gonna go through all of the stuff
that he had to do to comeback to this point
because the money was coming to him regardless of whether
he played or not.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So to me, that shows that he does have an
affinity for the game.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
The other part that stands out to me is last
year when she d Sander has had an opportunity to
get the start and Deshaun Watson went on the road
and he got closed with Dylan Gabriel and she do
her and kind of help them prep to get ready
and kind of threw himself back into the I thought
there was a significant development because it showed his maturity
no matter what a lot of those young guys looked
(23:06):
up to him. Even those young guys in the locker room,
they kind of remember when he was still a bit
of the star because look, he was viewed as the
next big thing. He was going to be the next
superstar quarterback. They paid him like he was a superstar.
So there is still some of that cachet. But you're right,
he's gonna have to do it. He's gonna have to
do it in between the lines. He's gonna have to
show us that he can be that feel good story.
(23:28):
But the way that they're talking about him, it certainly
appears he's on his way to having an opportunity to
have that comeback story.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
See. And here's the other thing I want to say
about Shador, because you know wrote him up, gave him
a six' three to, zero which is the same GRADE
i Gave Ty.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Simpson you really want to know the. Truth AND i
know What shador did well in. COLLEGE i know what
he didn't do as well in. COLLEGE i Think i'm
pretty fair and objective when it comes To. Shador there
is all of the hype and the draft day theatrics
around shaudor not being, drafted where some people thought he
(24:04):
should have been or. Whatever that rubbed a lot of
people the wrong. Way and so in the world of,
sports if you don't like the fans of a.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Team then you all of a sudden hate that.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Team AND i think the people there are a lot
of people who are kind of Anti Shador sanders because
of elements that are maybe beyond his control and don't
have anything to do with. Football but as a football,
PLAYER i still think he has a chance to become
AN nfl starting. QUARTERBACK i really. Do he's got good pocket.
(24:35):
Poise he's got great pocket. POISE i think he's got
an awareness that you need to have in THE. Nfl
needs to get a lot Better.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Shador.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Has he has to learn to get rid of the ball.
More he takes too many bad sacks and he moves
backwards in a. Pocket and we can point out what
he doesn't do, well BUT i think he does some
things well and does some things where he has the
potential to still develop as a. QUARTERBACK i would not
just give up on. Him IF i were The Cleveland,
BROWNS i would. NOT i still think that there's some
(25:04):
development that's. Possible all of The dion stuff and the
additional stuff and the talk. Shows it's Not shador's fault
that some of that over shadows who he is or
what he's trying to, do and all he can do
is keep his head. Down learn From Deshaun watson because
this may be a year where he's taking mental reps.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And you, know he may not get on the.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
FIELD a whole lot Is deshaun stays healthy the whole.
Time but that's not necessarily a bad. Thing AND i
do think it's good to learn From Todd. MUNKIN i
don't know if you saw, This, bucky But Todd munkin
was asked about quarterbacks in the seven on Sevens, ooh
he was. Heated he, said how are we throwing interceptions
on seven on? Seven For god's? Sake how are we throwing?
Interceptions and seven on? SEVEN i was, Like, yes this
(25:49):
is What cleveland. Needs they need that kind of.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Honesty, look they not only needed that kind of, honesty
but they needed somebody who wanted to work with each
of these. QUARTERBACKS i Think Todd munkin is uniquely qualified
to do. It the work that he had that he
did With Lamar. Jackson Lamar jackson won his SECOND mvp under,
him when he was at, college he Recruited Shoudua sanders
and was okay with, Him so obviously going into, it
(26:12):
there's gonna be a mutual, respect a mutual trust that
is going to allow him maybe to get the best
out of not Only Shouldurah, sanders but the best out
Of Deshaun. Watson we'll see what that looks. Like that
was this Week's hot Or not, segment brought to you
By Wassabi Hot Cloud. Storage store more and do more
with your. Data try them for free At wassabi dot.
(26:34):
Com let's take a break after. This we're going to
talk about these top five tight end position. Groups all, RIGHT,
lz we're, back AND i always like to rope you
in Because i'm in the middle of writing this piece
FOR nfl dot com on the explosion of the tight
end position coming off the draft where we SAW i
think it was twenty something tight ends that were selected
(26:55):
over a three day weekend coming off of last year's
see and where we saw a ton of teams utilized
twelve and thirteen. PERSONNEL i wanted to dig into these top,
groupings but before we do, THAT i want you to
just kind of give me your opinion to. Stay the
tight ends and the way that you're seeing them one
(27:16):
valued based on what you've seen in scouting the college.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Game but also the conversation you have with some of
these guys around the. League, yeah it's.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Interesting i've been doing this for THE. Nfl i've been
doing it, longer but for THE nfl for twelve, years
twelve drafts and watching the state of THE. Nfl for one,
THING i remember when quarterbacks it was not so rare
to see quarterbacks lining up under.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Center then it became extremely.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Rare and you, know we've gone in cycles four, wides three.
Wides now there was a lot of pistol. Everything pistol
was going to change. Everything the zone read was going
to change. Everything and so football truly is. Cyclical right
now we're cycling back.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
To combination tight.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Ends not only the tight ends being more, Prevalent, bucky
but what type of tight ends the if it's no
longer just you AND i talked about it on draft,
day you really do have To now it used to
just be, okay you're an f.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Tit if you're a white tight, end you may or
may not even get. Drafted you may not even have
a chance to get it. Drafted if you're a True.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Why now you got guys Like Nate borkchire going in
the second, round and it started an entire run on tight.
Ends so it's we're really in a different spot now
where we've gone back to all, right you're gonna come
with shell.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Coverages we are going to run the.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Ball but it's not just about having a Standard why
tight end and then an f tight end who can
maybe function as a combination tight end where you can run.
Twelve THE nfl now really would like to have as
many versatile tight end options as possible so that when
they line up in, twelve it's not necessarily it's not
(28:53):
necessarily a heavy.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Set if they line up in.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Thirteen there is still versatility for them to throw in
and do some interesting things out of thirteen. Sets and
the tight end now bucky for me WHEN i was scouting,
THIS i started, realizing especially over the last two. Years
but you could go back to the draft That Dalton
kincaid was, in which is a very deep tight end,
draft that the tight end now is the mismatch, position
(29:16):
and it's a more subtle mismatch, position but what it's
become is the position that if you don't match it
up properly, defensively then teams can run against, you or
if you don't match it up, properly that tight end
can maybe exploit you in the passing. Game SO i
think it's fascinating that the tight, ends which are almost
forgotten for a, segment you, know for about a decade of,
(29:37):
football basically.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Not only are they, back but they're being used as
a mismatch.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
WEAPON i think that's very, interesting but it does show
this sport is very much Sickler.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah very sickl.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
AGO a couple years, ago we were talking about a
team shouldn't run, football and now everyone is going back
to the running game based on how the defense has
played with light boxes in too deep.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
COVERAGE i think it is.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Interesting this to me is a direct rep direct reaction
to what Vig fanjo and the others have been doing
with those two high safeties light. Boxes teams are going
to use the tight end to get back to run the.
Football when you have multiple tight ends on the, field
it does a few different things in the run. Game
it creates extra. Gaps it forces the defense to make
a hard decision on whether they in their base or
(30:18):
their nickel. Coverage if they do go, nickel they have
to decide do you want to go little nickel with
a deep with a, corner do you want to go
big nickel with the? Safety and then you want to
can those little guys match up with that second tight
end in the running. Game, well we're also seeing now
last year The rams stumbled upon. IT i was actually
there in the building when they stumbled upon.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
It against The.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Jaguars they had, Injuries pukinnakua couldn't. Play you just basically
Had Devontae adams and a bunch of tight. Ends they
go thirteen, personnel one, back three tight ends and they
have a hell of a day against The. Jaguars that
leads them to lead the league in thirteen. Personnel they
had one hundred and thirty one snaps with three tight
ends on the. Field the league last year had eighteen
(31:03):
hundred and forty five snaps with three plus tight ends
on the. Field, So, lance this is a trend that
isn't going, anywhere and it's one of those things that
they're going to continue to talk. About AND i Know
James gladstone took a lot of heat for taking a
tight End berkershire From TEXAS a AND m with the
second round. Pick but we saw right after that when
(31:23):
we were On Draft, center hey, man there was a
run on tight ends that took place right after he.
Went the league is serious about taking on these tight,
ends and so we need to be ready this year
to see two and three tight ends on the field a,
ton because it's.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Coming, yeah so you Had Marlon klein immediately The texans
moved him up presumably about a. ROUND i would Say
Max clair kind of went where the EARLIEST i thought
he could go would be the late.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Second but in most.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
PROJECTIONS i, had in the most SIMULATIONS i ran in
some of my league, CONTACTS i felt like he was
probably going. Third Sam ROUCH i thought would be late.
Third he ends up going early. Third Oscar, delp great,
tester he went way earlier in the. Third, like you're,
right everyone got pushed up around all these tight, ends
and it's because everyone had the same. Idea we're going heavier,
(32:12):
twelve or we're even going to some thirteen because it
is a copycat.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
League but.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
You, KNOW i, mean this is what.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Happens there's always a pendulum. Swing there's always a pendulum
swing if you go too far this, way then we're
gonna come back this way and.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Mismatching, Yeah so speaking of, Mismatches i'm gonna give you
my top five tight end grouping positions by a, team
and THEN i want to HAVE i want to pick
a couple teams to touch on on that. List number,
ONE i got The La rams because if they started a,
trend they sure they should be at the front end
of this given what they. Did and number two you
talked About Dalton. KINCAID i love the pairing Of Dawson
(32:50):
knox And Dalton. Kinkaid that's WHY i have. Them, Second
Las vegas The, Raiders Rock. Bauers michael Maher is read
that you're gonna have two guys that really are tight end.
Ones they have It Chicago. Bears after, That Cole, Comeck Coaston. Lovelin,
uh they Drafted Sam. ROWS i just think the possibilities
are endless With Ben johnson At Creative. Mind and then
lastly we talked about in the first section of the
(33:11):
podcast With Aaron, rodgers we talked About Pat friarmouth And
Darnelle washington giving him two blocking tight. Ends, well just
because we're making the list of top fives doesn't, mean
we're talking about the pass.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Catchers we're talking about difference.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Makers these Guys frimouth And, washington they should be able
to make.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
A difference in the run.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Game let's talk pick three teams to talk, about BUT
i want to get your take on the L A,
Rams Tyler, Higbee Kobe, Parkinson Terrence, Ferguson Davis, allen and
then we Got Max. Claire first thing that comes to.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
MIND i mean they're gonna they're gonna keep four, obviously
AND i think you when you look at, this you
have a series of tight ends who can who can
be Multiple Max claire is gonna be a pass, catcher
but you've got some tight ends in here who are
who can, run who can run seams can hit you
with longer routes in terms of average depth of. Target
(34:03):
what they're doing is they can free the quarterback to
be the. Quarterback he didn't have to, make you, Know Terrence,
FERGUSON i mean Even Terrence. Ferguson, WOW i mean these
are five tight ends that should be able to make
it on most.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Rosters if you look at, that just these, FIVE i see.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
QUARTERBACKS i see tight ends who do not limit what
the what the quarterback can, do in, fact compliment what
the quarterback does. Well and it looks just as by
Adding Max claire here into the, group all you've done
is strengthen their ability to throw a tight end out,
there if not this, year the next, year a tight
(34:40):
end who can beat guys as a route runner and
mismatch you if you don't go to the right personnel.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Groups, yeah now you're talking about going to the right personnel.
Groups The rams certainly have that when you look at
what they were able to. Do i'm just looking at this.
Man this group combined for like a one hundred and
sixty one. Targets you look at the numbers that they
put up combined for fourteen. Touchdowns they had a ton of.
Production and even though we talked about putting the cop
in The DeVante, adams their tight ends are really where
(35:08):
they can run the offense.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Through they continue to do.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
So now another team that could run their passing game
through the tight, ends The Buffalo. Bills Dawson knox and
Dualn kin cad are interesting Because King kid is the
first round. Pick nawson has been established up there last.
Year lands they combine for seventy five catches nine hundred
ninety eight yards and nine, touchdowns And kinkaid missed five
Games When KING k was coming, Out what were your
(35:31):
initial thoughts on him when you did discount of?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Report loved, him Loved Dalton.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
KINCAID i thought he had a matter of staying, healthy
BUT i Thought dalton had can't miss, hands was a
reliable threat on three. LEVELS i was a huge fan
Of Dalton. Kinkad i'm still a fan Of Dalton kincaid's
and so this might be AS i look At buffalo
And i'm gonna Throwing Jackson hawes as, well who's a,
(35:56):
grimy a grimy run blocking offensive tight, end slash offensive.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Tackle basically not that he's that, big but he's that.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
Nasty you've Got Dawson knox who can function as a
combo tight end but really get after. It as a
Why dalton's going to be your pass? Catcher pause is
a true? Why this might be the best three for
me in terms of a. Standard this sets the standards
for a, combo a pass, catcher and a true you
(36:27):
know in the, cut why in the, mud why that
might be the best trio THAT i?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
See and WHEN i Saw KINKAID i was a huge
fan Of Kincaid's. KNOX i was, like and this is
in NINETEEN i, thought, ah you, Know knox is.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Okay but that's back when we weren't looking at combination
ty where you wanted to see the guys that could
make some catches and we're.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Going to make a little bit of. Noise NOW i
have a much greater appreciation.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
After Watching Dalton knox for what he can do on
downs one through, three not just you know on downs
one and.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Two it's one through three for. Him he's kind of
a complete tight.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
End and the other two, definitely you, Know Kincaid i'm
a big fan, of And hawes has his role as.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, yeah they're really.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Good Joe brady did a great job of putting that
together in front Of Josh allen when he took over
as the offensive play. Caller and the one thing that
he talked about he said he grew up in a
tree where tight ends were the easiest way to create the.
Mismatches that tree certainly was set By Sean. Payton you
got to Give Joe brady credit for expanding.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It out In.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Buffalo, now this is the one that's the most fascinating
one to. Me the last team that we will talk
about The Las Vegas, Raiders Rock bowers And Michael. Weyer
they Drafted Michael myer the year before they Take. Brocks
Brock barers they take with the thirteenth overall, pick and
he has been absolutely phenomenal since coming. Over these, Numbers
lance are. Stupid twenty nine games, played one hundred and
(37:49):
seventy six, catches eighteen hundred and seventy four, yards twelve,
touchdowns twenty four. Starts that rookie season he had one
hundred and twelve, catches eleven hundred and ninety four receiving,
yards and five TOWN i, mean you just talked about
a guy who's a freak of. Nature, Look Cliff Clint
kubiak talked about you just don't get these kind of
(38:09):
guys like he's a robot from The Football. Heavans when
you think about that Combination bowers And, Meyer, uh how
hard does?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
It just deal with? Them?
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yeah And bowers doesn't enough as a, blocker And myers
can do. Both so WHEN i Saw Gary kubiak's offense
back with The Houston, texans they Had Owen daniels who
could do. Well they Had joel dreeson at first From Colorado,
state who handled a lot of the heavy lifting from
a run blocking, standpoint and then you Had Owen daniels
who was kind of a.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Combination he did enough as a run.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Blocker he got a little bit better because you have
to If Alex gibbs is is heading up your your
run game, stuff he's gonna everyone's got a. Block everyone's
got a. Block and, Uh Owen daniels got to be
a functional to you, know above average blocker there as
a run, blocker but he was a really good pass.
Catcher so they Had joel drees and then they Had
James casey.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Who was kind of an h.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Back then they Added Garrett graham From So i've seen
this mode before and to, Me Brock, Bowers brock is
kind of a one of. ONE i can't compare anybody
That Gary kubak ever had To Brock bowers because he's
just really special as a pass. Catcher but from a side,
standpoint there is Some there actually is Some.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Owen daniels in. Here if you want to go all
the way, back Myers is gives you a.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Chance like he's not a he's not going to be
somebody that doesn't allow you to run out of twelve
personnel and throw the ball out a twelve Person he
can run out of.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Twelve you can throw out a twelve with. HIM i like.
That for The, RAIDERS i.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
Still think they're probably a. Third there's still a. Third
we'll see IF i How Ian thomas can, do but
they're probably still a third tight end.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Away you, know maybe next year of getting to where
he's going to want to.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Be but they have more than enough right now for,
Sure AND i Think raiders fans are going to be
very happy with.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
What you. Know bowers numbers look. Good last, year he
was really he had three.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Touchdowns in one game he had two and another hit seven,
totals so he really kind of got him in. BUNCHES
i think you're gonna see a more Consistent Brock bowers
attack this. Year it's kind of like we saw in
twenty twenty. FOUR i think that's what you'll see With
Brock bowers this.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Year but if there is going to be a coach
who understands how to get the most out of his tight,
ends it's going to Be Clint, kubiak because that's what
that coaching tree is all.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
About their coaching tree is all about.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
That last year with The Seattle, seahawks they ran twelve
personnel about twenty nine percent of the. Time The raiders
last year did it thirty three percent of. Time so
we stepping into an environment that he already. Knows so
you can best believe The Silver black line up with
two tight ends or more on most, downs and they're
gonna find a way to take advantage of their.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Personnel that's a third third tight end, group, Right, yeah
that's third ton.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
End i'm gonna hit you with the bonus that you
didn't mention young Guns Kenyon sadiq And mason out of The.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Jets oh what do you think of those two?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Guys, well LOOK i liked, them AND i liked them right.
AWAY i love the. Draft, look we went.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Excited it was one of those oh no moments that
we had Doing Draft center when everything was going, on
because you're, like, look they just Took Mason. Taylor now
they're gonna come back and Take Kenya. Sadik you can
already see all of the chaos that they can. CREATE
i just couldn't put them up there yet because we
hadn't seen them. Play BUT i am very optimistic about
what they can do for this. Offense i'm LOOKING i
(41:28):
think they're going to Help Gino smith get back on
track because being able to have two big bodies that
can control over the middle With Garret wilson on the,
Outside Adie mitchell on the other, side and Then Omark
cooper kind of playing in the. Slot this is a
much different offense from The. Jets and we haven't even
talked about the running. Game but those two tight ends
did a lynch, fence AND i think we will talk
about them a.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Ton when we get to it in the. Fall YEP i.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
Feel the same way about. Him i'm really excited about
the future of those two. Guys i'm a Big Mason
taylor fan so AND i was A Kenyan sadig fan as,
well so it's a matter of finding the right, quarterback
having the right guy in the. MIX i love the
potential those two young guys for.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Sure, look, man you know WHAT i.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
LIKE i like the potential of talking With elze multiple
times a week doing it on the. Podcast this was, Fun.
LANCE i love doing the deep, dive. MAN i appreciate
you joining me coming on. Guys that's the episode for this.
Week make sure You tune back next. Week On, monday
we're gonna drop another hot, one me And elze
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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